@@Yaboiii_123 - man my Calvinist buddies would probably have an aneurism if I sent them this 🤣🤣. Need a little less McArthur and a little more Sproul in my opinion lol.
I adore Jonathan Pageau. Please have him back on. I know he makes our brains hurt, but I’ve come to understand better what he is saying and it is the most coherent and reasonable way of understanding yourself, God, the world and reality. It makes so much sense in a deep down way.
Yep! It's a lot to wrap your head around and I'm sitting here getting such a mental exercise trying to understand the complexity of what he's saying. Or maybe I'm just dumb. 😅 But it's certainly new information to my brain.
@@imover9999hey, you're not dumb! I find myself zooming out and looking at the broad picture, and trying not try too hard to understand. You might find that once you've done that you get the broad sentiment and when you listen back all the small pieces start to make sense. Just remember, people who think they are far more clever than you or I will never get what Jonathan Pageau says. You're trying to understand and that makes you far wiser than those who don't. God Bless
I imagine my facial expressions are exactly like Matt Fradd’s when I listen to Jonathan Pageau. A mixture of fascination and delight and a kind of strained concentration as I try to grasp his every word 😆 Loved every second of this interview
For real! Matt was dead on, as far as his idea was. Jonathan, perhaps, had more practice presenting his case on the matter. Matt said there are things outside of accepted life that are more 'bestial.' I would pair that nicely with what Jonathan was saying about monsters in the beginning of this talk - on the outside of the 'world,' not much collective experience, etc. Matt continued by saying that we bring talk of those beasts into the world, we break it down. That's exactly what Jonathan said as well! He did not lie when he said that was a good beginning - he said the same things as Matt but had more defined categories and a better mechanistic explanation.
I have never heard such a hilariously cerebral discussion about the dangers of taking a s*** on your kitchen table. "You will destroy your reality...." Oh my gosh, I can't stop laughing.
With respect, first title to the video was better. “Atheism” and “boobs” are catchy words, but “re-enchanting the world” is more true to what the whole theme was
I must admit a little too clickbaity for me. TBH the talk about boobs was a bit triggering, as I am a porn addict, but it was still valuable to hear them talk in an healthy way about a normal part of the female body.
@@apracity7672 not as gentle as i might have said so, but i entirely agree. As St Thomas says, virtues are habits, and vices become easier to avoid the longer they are avoided.
Very appreciate of the work Jonathan is doing!! My channel is dedicated to summarizing his brothers book, “the language of creation: cosmic symbolism in genesis" All humans worship something, everyone has a God! However, some people are too naïve to understand what it is they worship...
That book was more explanatory than an entire catholic high school degree. I had to dig back to ancient memories to understand what the teachers were talking about.
I never would have thought that a discussion of swearing would, in a roundabout way, help me understand the crucifixion better. This is more personal than relevant to the conversation, but I'm thankful for it. I had always struggled with the description of the crucifixion as a payment of debt. Even seeing how Jesus' sacrificing His life shows the depth of his love for us, and that death has no power over him, I didn't see how His death itself won salvation for us. I'll let theologians argue the merits of these explanations. Perhaps I'll struggle less with them in the future. But when Jonathan described Jesus reaching up and down at the same time, into the sacred and the banal, and going "down into the bottom of death," I perceived that it was the incarnation again. I've been much more moved by the incarnation, that God loved us so much that He became one of us, living as we do, so that we wouldn't just be loved but also know His love for us. But if we feel small and alone in this life, how much more so are we in death? Before I saw the incarnation as God coming to us, and the crucifixion as God leaving us temporarily because of some theological technicality, and of course I did; I'm alive. I don't know what it will be like to die, but now I see that He chose even to be with the dead, so there can be no barriers to Him.
Indeed, he even descended into Hell. Having left the faith and returned I find it striking how little even the average person understands based on how little I understood. Any frustration I felt at not having things explained and general failing of the church to articulate it vanish when I realise they were as lost as I was, and I wouldn't have found my way unless things unfolded exactly as they did. Good bless
Wow, some real moments where I paused the video, where I had to contemplate what was said. Really good discussion, and much food for thought. Thankyou.
Early in my Christian walk I grew tired of the American rigid interpretation of the Bible. This video gives great insight on the synergy between God, storytelling, and humans
I watch both of your videos religiously ... pun intended ... fun to see Jonathan breaking Matt's brain with teleology. Both brilliant, logical, smart, and doing God's work.
This was a really good conversation. I never understood Pageau so clearly as in this conversation. Either he's getting better at explaining symbolism for dummies like me or I'm getting less dumb every year:) Either way, I'm re-watching this in a couple of weeks. It was fantastic.
I've never had a video that made me listen intently, and actually all made sense. I have been learning about Christianity for the past year or so, and I'm excited to start going to my local Orthodox Parish this week. Thank you both.
Yes Jonathon, you break my brain, but you always put it back together again better than before! Matt, you did a great job of reeling Jonathon back in and slowing him down so us mortals have a chance to comprehend what he’s saying.
I truly enjoyed this conversation. The book sounds quite interesting. I do believe that in the topic of swearing my mother said it best. "The only reason curse is that they do not have a large enough vocabulary."
Eh, that's sort of right. But there are plenty of highly intelligent folks who will just throw out swears casually. That description of cursing is a bit misdirected - placing the breaking down of society on the backs of less intelligent people rather than less morally or religiously aligned people.
I work in a Catholic school in New England and the nurse sent out an email telling all the parents how to get their 5+ kids vaxxed early. The families don't see anything wrong with it. They need the prayers more than the children since they are obliged to their children by the Natural Law. I give it all to our Lady and whome we must all strive to have the upmost confidence in. She is more beautiful than all of creation combined, and her love and perfect intercession for souls is unfathomable to us. Hallelujah.
What Jonathan says about naming being directly connected to purpose is absolutely true; this is clearly exemplified in the classroom environment when studying life sciences--let's say for instance Anatomy & Physiology. Every part of an organ or a tissue or a cell is carefully mapped out according to function and has a name, distinguishing it from another otherwise indefinite area contained within the same organ, tissue, etc. The brain is an excellent example of this: it is divided into hemispheres, regions, lobes, gyri, sulci, etc and characterized by sensory vs motor function, et al, but of course you wouldn't immediately know that by just seeing a whole brain specimen in front of you. You would at the very least look at it and go "ok, that is a brain". I often find myself in awe while I'm learning all of these structures at how such complex facets of human biology were ever broken down to the fine level of detail we have today (probably much to students' dismay); that is to say, scientists had to really break them down incrementally and fine tune their taxonomies over time. And overall, it is meaningful to do so because that is how humans, let's say in medicine, communicate valuable (potentially life-saving or ending) information with each other. We all need to learn the medical verbiage and speak a common language so we can problem-solve more efficiently and effectively/cooperatively.
I think this was one of the most helpful videos with Jonathan that I've seen, the way you went back and forth really helped to clarify his position. Thank you :)
If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning- CS Lewis
That Four Horsemen of Meaning conversation was really cool, atheism is dead boys! now our time has come 😎 Although we need to be aware of the psychedelics stuff that is becoming popular too, maybe that will be the apologetics of the future 😂😂
Their discussion about psychedelics was definitely interesting. Fascinating that the two psychologists who admit the usefulness of psychedelics are more than willing to qualify their approval with a need for guidance and direction.
@@drakonidesthevigilant5155 What if by committing murder someone gets to his lower point in live and in prison he finds Christ? God can use any means to bring people to himself that doesn't mean that we can engage in any kind of behaviour just because God could use it for good in the end Romans 5, 20: "But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"
@@drakonidesthevigilant5155 I’ve taken LSD and mushrooms a few times. I remember trying to say a Hail Mary on LSD and it was so difficult. For some reason, when I first converted, I had this impression in my mind that using psychedelics would help me understand God, because people have been using them forever. I have to agree with a comment above mine- If God uses psychedelics for some, that does not mean it should be promoted. After all, God uses our darkest moments many times! He works in mysterious ways as they say
This was an interesting encounter between a mind educated into a Western, logical take of the world and a mind working in a different framework. Jonathan has the impossible task of explaining things that are unexplainable via the usual vocabulary and conceptualisation. Matt has the impossible task of letting go of the assurances of the logical take and leap into the fluffiness of this weird other framework. When it comes to more experiential subjects, they meet beautifully.
@@stephencuskley5251 - There you go! Just like it is meticulously evidenced in Iain McGilchrist's books on the different approaches of the left and right hemispheres to the world and all phenomena. The narrow grip of the left brain needs to categorise everything straightaway and its smugness in doing this is blatant. You seem to be illustrating this point pretty well.... The left hemisphere is narrow, rigid and mechanistic.....may I suggest you familiarise yourself with Iain's work then come back to this conversation??
@@kbeetlesI realise I'm a year to the party, but may I compliment you on such a keen and well honed smack-down? I've got the meme of the wrestling commentators going around in my head. P.S. Nice ratio too!
One of my favourite discussions so far this year next to Dr. Peter Kreeft! Thank you, Matt and Jonathan! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Been watching twice now, need to digest this!
Jonathan's answer to the last question about Eve was exactly the thought experiment CS Lewis performed in his science fiction series, with exactly the same conclusion.
My 'in' to Christ was through a thorough engagement with the Platonic tradition and I think Jonathan's thinking brilliantly exemplifies the importance of that tradition, particularly in today's world; the primacy of the one over the many, that all things invariably move toward the good. Great stuff!
The framing of the end of materialism as looking at reality bottom up until you reach the top to create a ladder that goes both ways, is the most brilliant and easy way to describe the inevitability of spiritual reality.
This is one of my all-time favorite conversations. Matt, I LOVE how you played devil’s advocate and asked such great questions. Jonathan, your enthusiasm and profound sense of wonder are infectious. Glory to God for His gift to us in the variety of saints comprising His beautiful Bride!!
Thank you Jonathan. I love that you are waking Catholics up. The east is lovingly correcting the west. United in Christ we are going to bring the world back to Christ the King.
Hi Matt! I just met you in Colorado Springs recently. I have now watched a few of your videos and am really excited for this one. I appreciate you candor and generous spirit sir. Lord bless you!
Jonathan Pageau was a major player in my conversion from atheist into Christianity. His view just make sense, and opens you up to the Bible and Liturgy. Thank you both!
I found the road back (or forward?) before discovering Jonathan, indeed it's only been a week or so, even if he was on my radar. A combination of Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Michael Knowles and Dennis Prager with a little help from Steven Crowder, the Babylon Bee, Carl Benjamin of the Lotus Eaters and Calvin Robinson. It's nice to hear other people on the same journey as me and it brings to mind Canterbury Tales. Godspeed
If you’re trying to understand dog headed men, think The Hound on Game of Thrones. He is not literally a dog, but is described and represented as such because it reveals his character.
He’s called the hound because he does what he’s told, nothing to do with strangeness of categories that you have no place for. No one would’ve described him as a dog headed man in a journal because they lacked terms to describe him, he’s a big dude with a burnt face, not a complete mystery. Not even close to being the same thing.
@@TheDonovanMcCormick He is the monstrous looking outsider who doesn’t belong in the Kings court. He is the dog looking for a king to serve, and he guides Arya back home. Its the same story. **He even converts in the end and joins a religious sect.
@@06rtm yup. It's the same mechanism as fishing stories growing more hyperbolic each time they're told. Unfortunately that popular example has 'profaned' the idea, but if you tell a story long enough, the uninteresting details are left behind and the more interesting ones take over and grow. Eventually, the weird guy with high servitude becomes nothing more than a strange dog in the storyteller's language.
@@charliecampbell6851 Its the same as the Mandalorian being a dog headed man. The Hound even wears a dog headed helmet. The example is almost cartoonish.
41:40 Funny because all the debates between flat-earthers and NASA-advocates end up the same way. The Flat Earthers dead-end at "it's a conspiracy" and the NASA-advocates dead-end at "it's an illusion".
The Liturgy of the Hours are for music what icons are for painting. Please make a video about the divine office. Chanted prayer in the domestic church can change the future of Catholicism; the laity can learn how to sing the truth.
I loved the explanation about swearing. I have looked at it also as the fact that God gave me the gift of being able to talk and so the least I could do is to try to use my speech wisely and beautifully. I don’t always succeed but I hope to persevere.
This was great! Matt if you have another chance to talk to him you should ask how his thought relates/competes with metaphysics. Your questions really helped make Pageau explain things in a way that made them more understandable.
Matt, to explore the idea of bottom-up explanations, you should definitely interview Paul VanderKlay. He uses the concept God #1 (revealed bottom-up through general revelation) and God #2 (revealed through special revelation). Same God, made known to us in different ways.
I liked the bit about swearing. I always think we are called to allow ourselves to become sanctified. For example, who you are in your 20’s should be way different than towards the end of your life. When we curse, we are rejecting this. Also, it’s true that we are participating in the degradation of society. For example, in the old days, people swore less and usually women did not. Now society curses everywhere and in front of anyone, even children.
Yo, protestant listener here, graduated from high school this year. A lot of the megachurch-types have thrown out ritual, but there's definitely still protestant churches doing the whole thing. I grew up in an ELCA church (which has admittedly gone pretty far off the edge in theology) that was mostly old folks and we had hymns, pastoral garments, dressing up, stained glass, the liturgy, candles in advent, the eternal flame (is that the name for it?), all 3 creeds, etc. I then went to a modern LCMS school for high school (had creationism and everything, YIKES) and they didn't have any of that. At one point I was in the smallest theology class senior year (last period of the day when most had early out) and 5 of the 8 kids said they hadn't heard of the apostles' creed before attending the school, because their own churches didn't include it. I was, to say the least, shocked. Luckily though, when I went to other LCMS churches while being there as part of the school band or choir, I found that many of them still had some of the liturgy and normalized rituals I was used to. I realize I've wandered a bit in my writing, but just wanted to let you know there's still at least some portion of protestants that are holding church in a very close way to how it would've been done right after the reformation! Thanks for having on Jonathan, I like to follow him around and have listened to a few of your videos with other guests as well as I drift around Christianity trying to find out where I'll land. Peace
55:38 hit me hard. So good and so true. Makes me understand the rituals of religion In a way that makes it seem so necessary, not really an arbitrary optional thing that can be forgotten. The absence of religious ritual will make room for unconscious lower level ritual.
@@josephbrandenburg4373 it was just a joke... because there is a big variety of swearing words using God in italian, and many times people get very "creative" about it. I dont know about many other languages that really have what we call "bestemmie".
@@palebluedotprog I have read that it's the same in France, and that Quebecois French uses the more scatological-type cusses. I think it's because the Catholic church was so strong in Europe and not so much in the New World.
JUST because we give certain experiences of Being names and then categorize those as "Religious" don't make them exist outside of us and certainly don’t mean they will exist without us.
It is the extraordinary experiences which scientific thinking denies which keeps people having faith in both their experiences and the framework which explains, gives meaning to them. And, this is totally unscientific.
![Chicken P - People's Favorite (Remix) [Feat. 42 Dugg] (Official Video)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/a6Bn8FEtxmY/mqdefault.jpg)
Man I’m a protestant and I could listen to you guys all day.
Become Catholic then..
I was the same... now a Catholic. Be careful :)
@@mortensimonsen1645 correct! very careful...
I'm a Calvinist and I feel the same way
@@Yaboiii_123 - man my Calvinist buddies would probably have an aneurism if I sent them this 🤣🤣. Need a little less McArthur and a little more Sproul in my opinion lol.
I adore Jonathan Pageau. Please have him back on. I know he makes our brains hurt, but I’ve come to understand better what he is saying and it is the most coherent and reasonable way of understanding yourself, God, the world and reality. It makes so much sense in a deep down way.
I feel like Matt's facial reactions and questions represent most of us trying to understand Johnathan
Yep! It's a lot to wrap your head around and I'm sitting here getting such a mental exercise trying to understand the complexity of what he's saying. Or maybe I'm just dumb. 😅 But it's certainly new information to my brain.
Great interviewer.
Agreed.
@@imover9999hey, you're not dumb! I find myself zooming out and looking at the broad picture, and trying not try too hard to understand. You might find that once you've done that you get the broad sentiment and when you listen back all the small pieces start to make sense.
Just remember, people who think they are far more clever than you or I will never get what Jonathan Pageau says.
You're trying to understand and that makes you far wiser than those who don't.
God Bless
It's because he has a (classic) philosophical background and he often uses metaphysical terminology and concepts.
I imagine my facial expressions are exactly like Matt Fradd’s when I listen to Jonathan Pageau. A mixture of fascination and delight and a kind of strained concentration as I try to grasp his every word 😆 Loved every second of this interview
This is the best crossover. Pageau is a brilliant mind and guest. I really appreciate how Matt really earnestly tried to work within Pageaus framework
'
I swear I almost had a transcedental experience listening to Jonathan explaining what swearing is.
Great talk!
For real! Matt was dead on, as far as his idea was. Jonathan, perhaps, had more practice presenting his case on the matter. Matt said there are things outside of accepted life that are more 'bestial.' I would pair that nicely with what Jonathan was saying about monsters in the beginning of this talk - on the outside of the 'world,' not much collective experience, etc.
Matt continued by saying that we bring talk of those beasts into the world, we break it down.
That's exactly what Jonathan said as well! He did not lie when he said that was a good beginning - he said the same things as Matt but had more defined categories and a better mechanistic explanation.
Don't want to watch whole video. What timestamp is swearing?
@@Real_LiamOBryan Towards the end
@@Real_LiamOBryan somewhere after 40 minutes. Maybe try 43?
@@Real_LiamOBryan it's clipped now
I have never heard such a hilariously cerebral discussion about the dangers of taking a s*** on your kitchen table. "You will destroy your reality...." Oh my gosh, I can't stop laughing.
Yesssss!!! 🤣
These comments seem like spoilers but I have an excitable curiosity in finding out exactly how that quote transpired!
These conversations are so fulfilling. So many are hungry for this, keep up the superb work, please! ❤
With respect, first title to the video was better. “Atheism” and “boobs” are catchy words, but “re-enchanting the world” is more true to what the whole theme was
I must admit a little too clickbaity for me. TBH the talk about boobs was a bit triggering, as I am a porn addict, but it was still valuable to hear them talk in an healthy way about a normal part of the female body.
@@HolyKhaaaaan why do you watch porn? You need to stop starting this very moment
@@apracity7672 not as gentle as i might have said so, but i entirely agree. As St Thomas says, virtues are habits, and vices become easier to avoid the longer they are avoided.
@@ArchetypeGotoh true, I've done that with cigarettes. But peer pressure and FOMO always gets me, my longest quit is 10 months.
@@JosephDeLosSantos-t3m There's peer pressure to watch porn?? Good grief. (I'm an old woman, so I don't know much about that world.)
Very appreciate of the work Jonathan is doing!! My channel is dedicated to summarizing his brothers book, “the language of creation: cosmic symbolism in genesis"
All humans worship something, everyone has a God! However, some people are too naïve to understand what it is they worship...
this guys channel is good, check him out
That book was more explanatory than an entire catholic high school degree. I had to dig back to ancient memories to understand what the teachers were talking about.
You've done great work on your channel - thank you!
By the way, loving seeing my favorite Catholic You Tuber with one of the people who led me to Orthodoxy
I never would have thought that a discussion of swearing would, in a roundabout way, help me understand the crucifixion better. This is more personal than relevant to the conversation, but I'm thankful for it.
I had always struggled with the description of the crucifixion as a payment of debt. Even seeing how Jesus' sacrificing His life shows the depth of his love for us, and that death has no power over him, I didn't see how His death itself won salvation for us. I'll let theologians argue the merits of these explanations. Perhaps I'll struggle less with them in the future.
But when Jonathan described Jesus reaching up and down at the same time, into the sacred and the banal, and going "down into the bottom of death," I perceived that it was the incarnation again. I've been much more moved by the incarnation, that God loved us so much that He became one of us, living as we do, so that we wouldn't just be loved but also know His love for us. But if we feel small and alone in this life, how much more so are we in death? Before I saw the incarnation as God coming to us, and the crucifixion as God leaving us temporarily because of some theological technicality, and of course I did; I'm alive.
I don't know what it will be like to die, but now I see that He chose even to be with the dead, so there can be no barriers to Him.
Indeed, he even descended into Hell. Having left the faith and returned I find it striking how little even the average person understands based on how little I understood.
Any frustration I felt at not having things explained and general failing of the church to articulate it vanish when I realise they were as lost as I was, and I wouldn't have found my way unless things unfolded exactly as they did.
Good bless
This is such a fascinating discussion. I've never found someone so passionate about teleology. Thank God for artists and creatives.
What a joyful Spirit Jonathan has! He makes me smile. Great conversation.
Wow, some real moments where I paused the video, where I had to contemplate what was said. Really good discussion, and much food for thought. Thankyou.
Brilliant, Matt, thank you so much for having invited Jonathan!
Greetings from Romania
Early in my Christian walk I grew tired of the American rigid interpretation of the Bible. This video gives great insight on the synergy between God, storytelling, and humans
I watch both of your videos religiously ... pun intended ... fun to see Jonathan breaking Matt's brain with teleology. Both brilliant, logical, smart, and doing God's work.
"Yes, you have to dump, but you shouldn't dump in the way animals dump."
I want this for merch.
Your explanation of going to Mass and symbolism helped me, a ~50 yr old understand why my millennial daughter loves the Latin Rite
This was a really good conversation. I never understood Pageau so clearly as in this conversation. Either he's getting better at explaining symbolism for dummies like me or I'm getting less dumb every year:) Either way, I'm re-watching this in a couple of weeks. It was fantastic.
52:51 Ritual and connection to addiction
This is an amazing talk, I’ll need to rewatch this with a thesaurus and a lot of coffee. 😂
in a 19th c. Hungarian epic poem, in which the hero adventures in distant lands like in Odyssey, he met the dog-headed Tartars.
The first time Matt interviewed Jon was fantastic, and this is as well. Thanks Matt & Jon for all you guys do!
Perelandra (C. S. Lewis's novel) addresses the scenario of meeting Eve before she sins. I really wish Jonathan Pageau would discuss it sometime
Jonathan, you definitely broke my brain 😅
Lol same😂
"Give me an atheist trope and let's se what happens" 😂🤣🤣🤣
That's a nice materialist philosophy you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.
36:29
Amazing conversation. Thank you both!
I've never had a video that made me listen intently, and actually all made sense.
I have been learning about Christianity for the past year or so, and I'm excited to start going to my local Orthodox Parish this week.
Thank you both.
Excellent episode. Please have Jonathan over again in the future!
Thank you, thank you, so much for this collaboration!! 💖
"If you take a crap on the kitchen table, you will destroy your reality." -- Jonathan Pageau
Yes Jonathon, you break my brain, but you always put it back together again better than before! Matt, you did a great job of reeling Jonathon back in and slowing him down so us mortals have a chance to comprehend what he’s saying.
I truly enjoyed this conversation. The book sounds quite interesting. I do believe that in the topic of swearing my mother said it best. "The only reason curse is that they do not have a large enough vocabulary."
Eh, that's sort of right. But there are plenty of highly intelligent folks who will just throw out swears casually. That description of cursing is a bit misdirected - placing the breaking down of society on the backs of less intelligent people rather than less morally or religiously aligned people.
@@charliecampbell6851 I agree there are more reasons why people swear. This was just a memory from my youth.
This gives a whole new meaning to “The Purpose Driven Life”
I work in a Catholic school in New England and the nurse sent out an email telling all the parents how to get their 5+ kids vaxxed early. The families don't see anything wrong with it. They need the prayers more than the children since they are obliged to their children by the Natural Law. I give it all to our Lady and whome we must all strive to have the upmost confidence in. She is more beautiful than all of creation combined, and her love and perfect intercession for souls is unfathomable to us. Hallelujah.
@@Kitiwake and that’s why you’re gonna be a slave to the new world order and the Antichrist
I am not seeing an issue? So, what is the wrong?
God bless both of you 🙏🏻
What Jonathan says about naming being directly connected to purpose is absolutely true; this is clearly exemplified in the classroom environment when studying life sciences--let's say for instance Anatomy & Physiology. Every part of an organ or a tissue or a cell is carefully mapped out according to function and has a name, distinguishing it from another otherwise indefinite area contained within the same organ, tissue, etc. The brain is an excellent example of this: it is divided into hemispheres, regions, lobes, gyri, sulci, etc and characterized by sensory vs motor function, et al, but of course you wouldn't immediately know that by just seeing a whole brain specimen in front of you. You would at the very least look at it and go "ok, that is a brain".
I often find myself in awe while I'm learning all of these structures at how such complex facets of human biology were ever broken down to the fine level of detail we have today (probably much to students' dismay); that is to say, scientists had to really break them down incrementally and fine tune their taxonomies over time. And overall, it is meaningful to do so because that is how humans, let's say in medicine, communicate valuable (potentially life-saving or ending) information with each other. We all need to learn the medical verbiage and speak a common language so we can problem-solve more efficiently and effectively/cooperatively.
Brilliant conversation, Pageau’s enthusiasm is contagious! Thanks for this conversation Matt, gave me a lot to think about :)
I think this was one of the most helpful videos with Jonathan that I've seen, the way you went back and forth really helped to clarify his position. Thank you :)
Had to pause the video to go order the graphic novel.
If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning- CS Lewis
The light produced when an western and eastern angel are in the presence of one another is a beautiful site to witness. Awesome conversation
I'm glad to see Pageau on the channel!
That Four Horsemen of Meaning conversation was really cool, atheism is dead boys! now our time has come 😎
Although we need to be aware of the psychedelics stuff that is becoming popular too, maybe that will be the apologetics of the future 😂😂
Their discussion about psychedelics was definitely interesting. Fascinating that the two psychologists who admit the usefulness of psychedelics are more than willing to qualify their approval with a need for guidance and direction.
What if someone catches a glimpse of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and returns to Christ under the influence of psilocybin mushrooms?
@@HolyKhaaaaan Have you seen Paul VanderKlay's review of the conversation? Its really interesting too
@@drakonidesthevigilant5155 What if by committing murder someone gets to his lower point in live and in prison he finds Christ?
God can use any means to bring people to himself that doesn't mean that we can engage in any kind of behaviour just because God could use it for good in the end
Romans 5, 20: "But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"
@@drakonidesthevigilant5155 I’ve taken LSD and mushrooms a few times. I remember trying to say a Hail Mary on LSD and it was so difficult. For some reason, when I first converted, I had this impression in my mind that using psychedelics would help me understand God, because people have been using them forever. I have to agree with a comment above mine- If God uses psychedelics for some, that does not mean it should be promoted. After all, God uses our darkest moments many times! He works in mysterious ways as they say
This was an interesting encounter between a mind educated into a Western, logical take of the world and a mind working in a different framework. Jonathan has the impossible task of explaining things that are unexplainable via the usual vocabulary and conceptualisation. Matt has the impossible task of letting go of the assurances of the logical take and leap into the fluffiness of this weird other framework. When it comes to more experiential subjects, they meet beautifully.
I want to see Jonathan have a conversation with Trent Horn or Cameron Bertuzzi just because I want to see them try to explain things to each other 😂😂
Yes, a different framework. It's called schizophrenia.
@@stephencuskley5251 - There you go! Just like it is meticulously evidenced in Iain McGilchrist's books on the different approaches of the left and right hemispheres to the world and all phenomena. The narrow grip of the left brain needs to categorise everything straightaway and its smugness in doing this is blatant. You seem to be illustrating this point pretty well.... The left hemisphere is narrow, rigid and mechanistic.....may I suggest you familiarise yourself with Iain's work then come back to this conversation??
@@kbeetlesI realise I'm a year to the party, but may I compliment you on such a keen and well honed smack-down?
I've got the meme of the wrestling commentators going around in my head.
P.S. Nice ratio too!
One of my favourite discussions so far this year next to Dr. Peter Kreeft! Thank you, Matt and Jonathan! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Been watching twice now, need to digest this!
I hope there is an 8 second video on the clips channel of “if you crap on the kitchen table, your reality will fall apart”
Jonathan's answer to the last question about Eve was exactly the thought experiment CS Lewis performed in his science fiction series, with exactly the same conclusion.
My 'in' to Christ was through a thorough engagement with the Platonic tradition and I think Jonathan's thinking brilliantly exemplifies the importance of that tradition, particularly in today's world; the primacy of the one over the many, that all things invariably move toward the good. Great stuff!
Great conversation! Thanks for having Pageau on. I backed his project day 1 and am thrilled to see it doing so well
This is truly a conversation that I’ve been waiting for for so long and the title threw me for such a loop that I got unfathomably excited
The framing of the end of materialism as looking at reality bottom up until you reach the top to create a ladder that goes both ways, is the most brilliant and easy way to describe the inevitability of spiritual reality.
ruclips.net/video/9eEtLVerfPE/видео.html
This is one of my all-time favorite conversations. Matt, I LOVE how you played devil’s advocate and asked such great questions. Jonathan, your enthusiasm and profound sense of wonder are infectious. Glory to God for His gift to us in the variety of saints comprising His beautiful Bride!!
I can’t decide if I like the original title or this one better 😂 Can’t wait to listen!! also that graphic novel looks amazing
Thank you Jonathan. I love that you are waking Catholics up. The east is lovingly correcting the west. United in Christ we are going to bring the world back to Christ the King.
Ok folks now... this is epic 😎
I love that twinkle in Jonathan's eye when he says he has people writing him who became "usually the more traditional Catholic" ha! (1:17:49)
Hi Matt! I just met you in Colorado Springs recently. I have now watched a few of your videos and am really excited for this one. I appreciate you candor and generous spirit sir. Lord bless you!
Wow!!! Opened my eyes! Thank you to you both!! God Bless
Thanks for the show, guys! I really had to stop and ponder about these topics.
Jonathan Pageau was a major player in my conversion from atheist into Christianity. His view just make sense, and opens you up to the Bible and Liturgy. Thank you both!
I found the road back (or forward?) before discovering Jonathan, indeed it's only been a week or so, even if he was on my radar.
A combination of Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Michael Knowles and Dennis Prager with a little help from Steven Crowder, the Babylon Bee, Carl Benjamin of the Lotus Eaters and Calvin Robinson.
It's nice to hear other people on the same journey as me and it brings to mind Canterbury Tales.
Godspeed
Man! Thank you for bringing Jonathan on! I'll be re-subscribing to him!
Love this Jonathan seems to have a lot of joy
You can actually see Jonathan staring at Bishop Barrons Square on the zoom call
@50:08 Everything with a name has a purpose; I wonder how this relates to Adam naming all of the animals in the Garden.
ruclips.net/video/9eEtLVerfPE/видео.html
When Matt threw up the contraception question lol..... "Wow, I had no idea that was such a loaded question when I put that up there"
Listening to Jonathan my mind gets blown wow alot to learn and New way to see things
That "what would you say to Eve if you traveled on a space ship and could talk to her" question is the premise of CS Lewis' book "Perelandra."
If you’re trying to understand dog headed men, think The Hound on Game of Thrones. He is not literally a dog, but is described and represented as such because it reveals his character.
He’s called the hound because he does what he’s told, nothing to do with strangeness of categories that you have no place for. No one would’ve described him as a dog headed man in a journal because they lacked terms to describe him, he’s a big dude with a burnt face, not a complete mystery. Not even close to being the same thing.
@@TheDonovanMcCormick He is the monstrous looking outsider who doesn’t belong in the Kings court. He is the dog looking for a king to serve, and he guides Arya back home. Its the same story. **He even converts in the end and joins a religious sect.
@@06rtm yup. It's the same mechanism as fishing stories growing more hyperbolic each time they're told. Unfortunately that popular example has 'profaned' the idea, but if you tell a story long enough, the uninteresting details are left behind and the more interesting ones take over and grow. Eventually, the weird guy with high servitude becomes nothing more than a strange dog in the storyteller's language.
@@charliecampbell6851 Its the same as the Mandalorian being a dog headed man. The Hound even wears a dog headed helmet. The example is almost cartoonish.
27:00.........wowzers!.......I wasn't really "getting" Jonathan fully. awesome, awesome.......
The beginning did not have flow or much meaning and I would have almost missed listening to the rest of this! So thank you for clipping:)
41:40 Funny because all the debates between flat-earthers and NASA-advocates end up the same way. The Flat Earthers dead-end at "it's a conspiracy" and the NASA-advocates dead-end at "it's an illusion".
The Liturgy of the Hours are for music what icons are for painting. Please make a video about the divine office. Chanted prayer in the domestic church can change the future of Catholicism; the laity can learn how to sing the truth.
I loved the explanation about swearing. I have looked at it also as the fact that God gave me the gift of being able to talk and so the least I could do is to try to use my speech wisely and beautifully. I don’t always succeed but I hope to persevere.
I think I would like to be orthodox, but I can’t grow a beard so they probably wouldn’t let me in.
Lol😂
Oh, we accept all sorts, bearded or not.🙂
@@olgakarpushina492 I know some orthodox don’t have beards. My understanding is that they are all women. Unfortunately I’m not a woman.
@@bryanwalters9574 😆so many stereotypes.
This was great! Matt if you have another chance to talk to him you should ask how his thought relates/competes with metaphysics. Your questions really helped make Pageau explain things in a way that made them more understandable.
Ps- sorry if you end up doing this I am about half way through.
I have to make a road trip to QC to buy a few pints for Pageau. An in person conversation with him would be mind expanding.
Matt, to explore the idea of bottom-up explanations, you should definitely interview Paul VanderKlay. He uses the concept God #1 (revealed bottom-up through general revelation) and God #2 (revealed through special revelation). Same God, made known to us in different ways.
Just backed the graphic novel! Looks wonderful.
Pageau is on fire!!! Big time.
I will only be referring to hippopotamuses now as river horses
I liked the bit about swearing. I always think we are called to allow ourselves to become sanctified. For example, who you are in your 20’s should be way different than towards the end of your life. When we curse, we are rejecting this.
Also, it’s true that we are participating in the degradation of society. For example, in the old days, people swore less and usually women did not. Now society curses everywhere and in front of anyone, even children.
This was personally enlightening. Thank you.
Yo, protestant listener here, graduated from high school this year. A lot of the megachurch-types have thrown out ritual, but there's definitely still protestant churches doing the whole thing. I grew up in an ELCA church (which has admittedly gone pretty far off the edge in theology) that was mostly old folks and we had hymns, pastoral garments, dressing up, stained glass, the liturgy, candles in advent, the eternal flame (is that the name for it?), all 3 creeds, etc.
I then went to a modern LCMS school for high school (had creationism and everything, YIKES) and they didn't have any of that. At one point I was in the smallest theology class senior year (last period of the day when most had early out) and 5 of the 8 kids said they hadn't heard of the apostles' creed before attending the school, because their own churches didn't include it. I was, to say the least, shocked. Luckily though, when I went to other LCMS churches while being there as part of the school band or choir, I found that many of them still had some of the liturgy and normalized rituals I was used to.
I realize I've wandered a bit in my writing, but just wanted to let you know there's still at least some portion of protestants that are holding church in a very close way to how it would've been done right after the reformation! Thanks for having on Jonathan, I like to follow him around and have listened to a few of your videos with other guests as well as I drift around Christianity trying to find out where I'll land. Peace
If you listen to Jordan, you'll end up becoming the original Christian, the Orthodox.
@@olgakarpushina492 Ehhh.. I've listened to him for a while
Marvelous! Made to happen! Well done to you both! 👍
Excellent discussion! I hope you make a separate clip of the swearing discussion. I thought it was really interesting and would like to share
"its probably better to think of ones own death rather than the death of the world ( which is a distraction")...well said !!
Love the thoughts on ritual! Beautiful!!
loved this conversation!
Tremendo, gracias por el laburo
For the question about meaning being objective. It seems that, like truth, meaning also converges to the similar ideas of loving and serving others.
I CAN'T WAIT TO WATCH THIS
Agree😎
Another amazing long conversation! Cheers 🍻
ruclips.net/video/9eEtLVerfPE/видео.html
55:38 hit me hard. So good and so true. Makes me understand the rituals of religion In a way that makes it seem so necessary, not really an arbitrary optional thing that can be forgotten. The absence of religious ritual will make room for unconscious lower level ritual.
Very interedting. I don't think the swearing theory would apply to italians like me thought. We took it to another level.
Explain for a non-Italian?
@@josephbrandenburg4373 it was just a joke... because there is a big variety of swearing words using God in italian, and many times people get very "creative" about it. I dont know about many other languages that really have what we call "bestemmie".
@@palebluedotprog I have read that it's the same in France, and that Quebecois French uses the more scatological-type cusses. I think it's because the Catholic church was so strong in Europe and not so much in the New World.
@@josephbrandenburg4373 yes i agree with you!
JUST because we give certain experiences of Being names and then categorize those as "Religious" don't make them exist outside of us and certainly don’t mean they will exist without us.
It is the extraordinary experiences which scientific thinking denies which keeps people having faith in both their experiences and the framework which explains, gives meaning to them. And, this is totally unscientific.
God bless the work you both bring to the table.
Thanks Matt for making him give examples.
Amazing podcast, thank you