Heroscape Tier List - Wave 1: "Mallidon's Prophecy" || Unit Power Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Thank you all for your patience in waiting for the second installment in our Heroscape Tier List series. This one took far, far longer than expected, but I hope (though can’t promise) I can make these videos more quickly in the future.
This time we’re examining the 11 units released in Expansion Wave 1, “Mallidon’s Prophecy.” I forgot to include this at the start of the video, but this series is only focused on official Heroscape units released before the 2010 discontinuation. I’m also only focused on the traditional Heroscape format of two or more players bringing armies and fighting to until one player is left standing. And so I don’t go over Delta, Reverse the Whip, and the other excellent formats and tweaks to the classic format. VC, Delta, Reverse the Whip, and all the other flavors of Heroscape are all wonderful additions to the game, but I have to set boundaries on what I can feasibly talk about in a single video. That doesn’t mean we can’t explore those formats in other videos outside of this series!
Links
Casters of Valhalla Podcast
Website: castersofvalhalla.wixsite.com...
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Heroscapers.com: www.heroscapers.com/community...
Unit Strategy Review Index: www.heroscapers.com/community...
The “Books of Heroscape” Index: www.heroscapers.com/community...
Timestamps
Intro: 0:00
Arrow Gruts: 3:59
Blade Gruts: 16:22
Kelda the Kyrie Warrior: 29:31
Marcus Decimus Gallus: 39:52
Omnicron Snipers: 51:44
Roman Archers: 58:52
Roman Legionnaires: 1:07:22
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior: 1:19:30
Tornak: 1:32:12
Venoc Vipers: 1:38:56
Venoc Warlord: 1:51:17
Outro: 2:01:38
Twitch: / genuinelysynthetic
Music:
"Hypnothis"
Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons.org/licenses/... 
Игры
CORRECTIONS AND RANKING ADJUSTMENTS:
*Venoc Vipers*
For all Viper fans out there, I seriously underestimated their potential when I put them in C-Tier. At the time of making this video, I was letting my last game I had played with them influence my decision too much. In that game, I played only around 3 squads, and not well. The Vipers in 4-5 squads can be a nightmare to face in all-melee matchups. Even with their 0 defense, there are just so many figures for an army to cut through that Vipers are often favored purely on math.
And the moment they Frenzy, they can shift their opponent from the offensive to the defensive. I also think I contradicted myself in this video with how often I thought Frenzy would trigger. The fact is, there's a healthy likelihood that after a few turns on the Vipers, they'll eventually get it. And once they do, an opponent is helpless until they stop Frenzying.
There's also a lot to say about the Vipers' ability to threaten a huge chunk of the board with their movement, while also staying comfortably out of the threat range of opponents who can't cover the distance they can in a single turn. Sometimes rushing forward is best with the Vipers, but other times you can play them by slowly advancing them, and their threat range, and carefully setting up for your charge when the time comes.
Overall, I misjudged the Venocs and am very comfortable bumping them up to B-Tier. I still think they're too match-up dependent to break into A, as a range-heavy army can usually chip away at their numbers before they can reach their opponents' figures. But overall, these guys are very strong in the right matchups, and deserve far more respect than I gave them. That, and I got stomped by them a few times after I made this video, which felt very karmic indeed.
*Warforged Soldiers*
At 48:49, when discussing the Warforged Soldiers' "Tactical Switch" power, I forgot the caveat that it only works on small and medium figures.
If anyone notices any other mistakes I made, let me know where and I'll add a note here.
Never clicked a video faster.
Man, I just had my second kid recently, and have been trying to manage the newborn, the toddler, all while balancing work, life, etc., and I just wanted to let you know that your content has really given me so much comfort and enjoyment the last few evenings. I have just kicked back, thrown on the headphones, and gotten lost in your analysis of this game. Such well thought out discussions of each unit. So, anyway, thanks for the content. I really, really hope you stay at it. Your two main videos have really made me happy. Thank you, thank you!
Thanks for the kind comment. Glad you've been enjoying these videos and that they've become something you can unwind with. Much more to come!
Oh hell yah, I was worried there wouldn’t be a second video after finding the first a little while ago.
So happy this exists! Please make more on each expansion. You could even do one on AoA
Hey Doggindays! This is Leo from the Heroscape tournaments in Colton. Just want to say it’s always a blast to play against you. Eventually I’ll get that win against you one day hahaha Congratulations on the back to back 1st place victories at the tournaments. Keep doing these videos. Love the format!
Hey Leo! Thanks for stopping by and glad you enjoyed it! And likewise. You're a joy to play against and build very good armies. Anytime I face you, I know I have to bring my A-Game! Looking forward to our next showdown!
@@doggindays2631 likewise my friend! Subscribed to your channel, keep up the great content!
I would love to see a continuation of this series.
About your avatar/logo: Dünd is a WAAAY underrated unit!
🙂👍
Also - I never knew that Taelord 'technically' has stealth flying - that's so great!
Venoc Vipers are my favorite heroscape unit. Love the shock tactics but I see how the 0 defense can hold them back from a better rating, especially with all the special abilities that do guaranteed hits.
Aren't they a blast? Honestly, they're the one unit on this list I'm still thinking about how I ranked. I could be persuaded they're B on a tier list format. It was the bad matchups that brought them down for me, but I think I need to play them more. Something tells me there's more to them than I gave them credit for...
I remember having one of my Venoc vipers on high ground one time and rolling that ONE shield to block a one skull attack! 😂
.... I also remember dropping my Airborne Elite in on the first round by my friend's start zone and destroying all but like 2 of his Venoc Vipers with my grenade lob special!
@@waynekautzer913 lol sounds like your friend needs to space out his units better. But if he had to because of many starting spaces he had available I get it. They are a very fragile unit but they have huge payoff potential for a 40pt squad
They're prolly one of the more skill intensive units I've seen...in the right hands They're devastating but use them unwisely and it won't be much of a game
Perfect length and format imo. Great for driving, painting, etc
I was waiting a long time for this, and it was more than worth the wait! I was so excited when you first came out with the Master Set Tier List. Awesome video and you have my sub!!
I stumbled across this again and really enjoyed this more than I did months ago.
Please continue.
I was in a tournament yesterday and had my butt handed to me.
I need all the help I can get.
Hopefully we see more of you soon.
these tier lists are great i love your analysis on all the figures. i look forward to listening to more:) thank you!
I went 3-2 at my last tournament with Omnicron Snipers x4 and Taelord. They are high risk and high reward. Playing in Delta helps balance the points and makes the Snipers and Taelord more valuable.
Nice. That's a cool Delta army. Yeah, if I was considering Delta points, I might adjust where both units fell on the list. I think 85's more suitable for the Snipers with how easy it is to take them down. Would've liked to have seen some of your battles from that event!
Great work once again! Excited for the next one!
Excellent breakdown!! I will finish watching it while I paint some 3D printed Heroscape figures tonight
First off, I have to say, I really enjoy the in depth analysis and don't think this video was too long. As you'll see by the length of this comment, I am eager to talk intensely about this topic. Secondly, as a preface to the rest of this comment, I'll have to say that I play very casual games amongst home town friends and family. My games never have cores to their armies, as we normally go for somewhere around 650 points, and don't have very many sets of commons so at most you'll see maybe two squads of a common unit in our builds. Our games normally have two phases of development, as our armies are sort of made up of two halves that rarely have synergy between them. With that understanding, here are my takes on almost all of the units discussed in this video. For the units that are not in this comment, I didn't have anything to say about them that you haven't said in your video or I just didn't have proper experience with them.
Arrow Gruts: I've never taken the time to understand their strengths and weaknesses. When I do choose to play with Krug or Mimring, I'll normally draft a squad or two for ranged support, but haven't gotten any notable milage out of them before. Their low stats really are a killer. I found the ways you discussed using them quite interesting. I'll have to try and make them a core for one of my armies in the future. Until then, I see them as a forgettable yet cheap ranged filler.
Blade Gruts: These units do find themselves on my table quite a lot. They're a cheap way to fill out an army with an expendable swarm. They are perfect for clogging up space and letting more bizarre strategies form behind them. If I do run them with an orc champion, I agree that Grimnak and Tornak work really well, although I've been interested in trying an Ornak build that works. I think I prioritize Ornak more as an Utgar hero activator than I do as a supporter to my orc swarms. I'll have to try some combination of the two in the future as I do really want to get as much utility as possible out of him.
Kelda: When I run armies consisting almost solely of hero's, Kelda is a must draft. As a high priority target, especially in all hero armies, I get the most utility out of her when I'm pinballing her across the battlefield. If my hero's are spread out, I can use order markers on Kelda to not only move her to safer areas of the map, but also assist a wounded hero in need. I know the competitive scene is built around common squad based armies, where Kelda would be real tough to use, but in a hero centered army, I find Kelda as the glue that makes these less competitive armies stay together.
Omnicron Snipers: A necessity for my armies if I ever play a attack/defend scenario, particularly if I'm on defense. These guys on a castle wall are a serious hassle to deal with. Almost all flying units in the game will have to spend at least one turn in their range before being able to fly up and engage them on equivalent height.
Roman Archers: I always want to make them work. It's in my nature to make less competitively viable strategies work. They most certainly are hard to use and the real killer is the strict conditions of arrow volley. Thematically, I'm overjoyed that they're here, for a lack of an arrow volley in the game would be noticeable in my opinion. I wonder if arrow volley is so strict because of how powerful it could be, or maybe the designs still hadn't perfected the art yet. I do think this could be an example of them worrying a unit would be too overpowered, much like Taelord, by handicapping them with either a high point cost, or a strictly worded ability.
Roman Legionnaires: Another essential thematic unit in the game. Without them, a shield wall ability would be sorely missed. I really think this wave was one of the strongest thematically. Also the textbook example of what a good soldier should be in the game.
Taelord: I full heartedly agree with you on this one. While not often, every time I use him he pulls his weight. Still, Taelord costs too much. If anything, he should have either 4 defense, 6 life, or both. I don't like the idea of buffing his attack because, for some reason, the kyrie warriors are designed to provide passive buffs. I personally don't like this philosophy because I don't think it makes them good "warriors." With a lack of good bonding options for the many kyrie warriors of the game, and their abilities portraying them as helpers, it just makes order marker placement on them hard, meaning they don't perform much active combat like a warrior should. If anything, I think they should have been flavored as leaders or something equivalent instead. It's a strange choice, but I've accepted it. With that little rant out of the way, it's why I believe his survivability should increase to match that of his point value rather than his attack. With his ability, I would never go for an attack with him unless he was my last option.
Tornak: I've always seen Tornak as too similar to Grimnak. The point value really kills me with this one. If I were to take a unit that buffs my orc warriors, I would prefer spending the extra 20 points on Grimnak instead. I do see their differences being Tornak can more easily weave through the battlefield, but still. When I run both in the same army, I feel it's a hassle to keep Tornak up on the front lines alongside Grimnak. I'll have to try developing them separately in future armies. Using one as an initial strike force and the other as a clean up crew does sound quite effective!
Venoc Vipers: I personally would never run these vipers as a core to an army, but even with that I seriously love these units. Like the Blade Gruts, they are the perfect army fillers capable of a ton of destruction for a low low point cost. Even if they don't achieve anything in a game, I'm never mad as they have 0 defense. What else can you expect? And I love how uniquely themed they are. It really helps their play style stand out from other more solidly based common squads in the game.
Venoc Warlord: Ever since I was a kid, this unit has been a top five. I love his aesthetic so much, and I love his ability to move over water even more. As a strong hitting hero with a fast speed and water unable to slow him down, he's always been fun. I know this next part is all a personal issue, but I wish he could be drafted effectively without scouts or frenzy based units. I know from what I described the hydra can be seen as a hard hitting hero who can fit that niche, but even with the hydra heads providing up to 4 attacks a turn, in truth the hydra can not maneuver the same way the Venoc Warlord has the ability to, and the Warlords speed is much greater. I wish the Venoc Warlord could be drafted more independently because I love his design so much. That being said, providing two buffs for applicable figures that don't require any sight lines or specific range is an incredible feat as the Warlord is most certainly a welcome addition to the game for what he does.
Thanks for this great, thorough, and thoughtful comment! A couple of points I wanted to respond to.
-Regarding "casual" play like what you described (though maybe we can call it "non-competitive" since "casual" gets used as a pejorative these days), that's a completely valid way to play and I do think about those non-competitive scenarios when I write these pieces. These tier list videos have been hovering in a gray area between "casual" and more competitive oriented analysis, and so I feel obliged to discuss elements of competitive play like "army cores." But my friends and I often do "heroes only" or "uniques only" games to spice things up. I admit to liking games with a good squad/hero mix, but heroes-only games can also bring out really, really interesting moments you wouldn't see in a heroes+squads game, where a bunch of heroes' exotic powers are all smashing up against each other in strange situations. Can often present players with lots of unusual decisions to make. So right on there.
-Arrow Gruts: I've heard some say this is the worst Orc army in Heroscape. Not bad, but outclassed by the others. That's probably because of their stats. But seriously, in one-on-one games, Krug gets it done. Dude's a monster. The ability to bond with him alone, not to mention Mimring or Ice Trolls, is huge for me. But definitely, if this video gave you ideas on new ways to use the Arrows, give them a try. I'd love to hear your results.
-Blade Gruts: I don't want to spoil too much on where I'll rank units I haven't touched yet, but on a purely "fun" level, Ornak is my favorite flagbearer. No contest. Red Flag of Fury is one of the most entertaining powers in the game. I don't think he's essential for Blades/Heavies armies, but man is Red Flag fun to play around with.
-Roman Archers: My friends and I have also been trying to "make them work" with classic points (not Delta, which does help them). In fact, I've heard a lot of people say something to that effect: "I *want* to make these guys work." They've had a rough go in the game.
-Venoc Vipers: FRENZY
Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on these units of these videos in the comments sections anytime. It helps the videos/channel, I read all comments, and love talking 'Scape/hearing from others.
Love the mathematical breakdown of the snipers! Keep up the good work!
Ohhh wonderful video!! I love your content
Love this series!
While I do not play competitive style games often, I really enjoy your breakdowns and suggestions. I know you have been asked this in other videos, but will you be doing more of these? They are great breakdowns.
Thanks for the comment and glad you enjoyed! Yes, the goal is to do one for all of the official units, both classic and DnD. I have a few other ideas for content for the channel too, including one I'm working on now. But no plans to stop, so hope you stay tuned!
@doggindays2631 I will! I am glad with the units you even view as worse, you explain how to use them as best as you can.
Poor Taelord. He had the potential to be an A tier or even an S tier, but he simply costs way too much. Very spot on tier list though, I'd say. Looking forward to the next!
Loving this please continue this series
Please keep doing these!!!
Happy to see a notification from you Doggin, looking forward to more content 🙂
I really like the in-depth coverage these unit reviews provide! I'm looking forward to more of them and will be excited to see you tackle Wave 2. Like Wave 1 (Maliddon's Prophecy), Utgar's Rage has a good amount of strong iconic units like the Minions of Utgar, Knights of Weston, 4th Massachusetts Line, and Krug that are awesome. There are also more obscure ones like the Marro Drones that look interesting but don't see a lot of action, so I'm curious how you would recommend using them.
They were very clever about the release on this expansion. You really need a hero to go with the squads.
Cool video love this concept
Keep up the good work.
Liked and subbed for these
good video!
Some gooood heroscape content
Hope your still keeping this going homie
Absolutely! I had a few others I wanted to knock out before the next installment, but rest assured, next one's on its way.
I hope heroscape makes a comeback and then this channel blows up. Lets go vanguard edition.
Fun fact: in an episode of 'ScapeTalk' (an early Heroscape podcast) Craig Van Ness was asked "Why does Taelord cost so much?" His answer was: "He doesn't, put him in a tower.".
Taelord potentially provides evidence that the game went in a very different direction than the designers foresaw: that of competitive play at tournaments, instead of huge maps with big towers and large armies, all of which are generally necessary for Taelord to be successful. (Obviously, lots of people, likely the majority, play casually with large armies and big maps, but I'm guessing the designers probably didn't predict the rise of competitive play.)
1000 point game, with tall enough towers for Taelord backed Omnicron Snipers to get double height advantage? Epic, but non-existent in the competitive scene.
However, just yesterday I helped host a tournament using a newer format called Stack the Tax (you're penalized for multiple commons, and had a restricted list). One army was pretty successful utilizing Taelord, where he paired him with Death knights x1, Krug, Arrow Gruts x1, Tarn and Guilty.
The Arrows bond with Krug, and assuming they are all in range, that's 5 attacks getting boosted.
Keep the long format loved it
Yayyy keep making these lol
I liked this
You making more of these? 40 points I think the venoc should get a B tier
Definitely making more! If you look up in the pinned comments, I added a note bumping the Venocs to B tier. They're really, really good and I seriously underrated them here (last time I played them I got obliterated, so that was biasing my opinion here). They're shy of A because they do have bad matchups, but they also clean house in their good ones.
I gotta say it bugs me sometimes that the thematic army builds are so rarely competitive. I want to field armies that look dope together, not just a hodgepodge of randos. But there's always some weak link that makes them almost non-viable. It's a bummer. Maybe some of the new figs will help with thematic cohesion, but I doubt it.
I'm with you. I do love thematic armies, but in tournament settings, they often don't cut it. Maybe that's just due to Heroscape conceptually, which imagines a hodgepodge of different types of units fighting under a single General's banner. That, or the designers just weren't as concerned with thematic/aesthetic compatibility as they were with creating cool mechanics and synergies. Each General represents a story/lore theme, but even within their armies there's lots of wild visual diversity. Shame too. There's nothing like seeing two people with two different very thematic armies fighting each other. It'd be cool if there was a format like "thematic armies only," but what counts as "thematic" is too subjective for that to catch on I guess.
As far as the length of the video I just split it up between two days so that wasn't bad and I would have probably ranked most of them the same way you did I might not have rank the Roman solo just because they're a cheap ranged unit that can put out heavy damage on potentially difficult heros to kill but somebody has to be ranked at the bottom so, I've just seen them used pretty well competitively and I have even used them to take out figures like major q10 before but anyway i liked this
Have your thoughts on the orcs changed at all since our matchup?
My man! Thanks for stopping by! Your army did get me to rethink the usual advice to not split your army up between two core common squads, as you did with Blades and Arrows. It gave you a lot of bonding flexibility, though I imagine it was tricky to manage order markers around both squads. And in the final moments, you had some leftover figures that were good in melee and some that were good at range. A total joy to play against you, and excited for future rematches!
I've never heard anyone talk do highly of a swog rider
If you want a deep dive on competitive play, you have to make it out to ScapeCon. Everyone is always willing to teach and discuss their games and how to improve and the finals games are on a whole other level.
I can only imagine! I'd love to go. The busiest month at my company is August, when ScapeCon III was held, so I can't take any time off during that month. But it's on my bucket list for the future and, hopefully, I'll get the chance.
@@doggindays2631 Understandable then. It is the premier Heroscape experience.