Keeping African Cichlids is UNETHICAL
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2024
- Are you wrong to keep African cichlids? Let's talk about reasons why it might be unethical, and is it possible that your fish might just have it better in an aquarium setting than in Lake Malawi or one of the other rift lakes? ** CORRECTION ** Fish taken from their native environment is WC, not F1. F1 is the next gen from WC, born in captivity.
Cichlid Charmer is dedicated to sharing the joy of keeping African cichlids and American cichlids and sharing information about them. Much of my content is not cichlid fish specific, however. It also pertains to all tropical fish aquariums. I will share what I have learned about cichlids and other fish, and everyone is welcomed to comment with their own experiences and information about fish and aquarium practices in general.
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So what do you think? Are African cichlid keepers like me doing a GOOD thing or a BAD thing? and correction to the meaning of F one. F1 means Both parents were wild caught. WC indicates that your fish is a native.
So I guess cat and dog owners are doing a bad thing also and I'm sure this person probably keeps a poor pet inside a box they call home. When this poor animal should be out with all the other animals running wild.lol
It's hard to say because unlike some land pets, fish are not majorly known for choosing the owners. They don't have much of a choice. This is a complicated question because you made a lot of good points. This is the same question with pet birds of flight. I can imagine flying but not being trapped in a cage with wings on my back. 😁
Sometimes the fish feel trapped. A few years ago, I was doing a partial water change, and I moved a large ornament so I could vacuum the gravel underneath it. I was so surprised to find a glass-cutting kit and a rope-style ladder made out of my live plants. The fish were planning a jailbreak, but I caught them before they could implement it. So I put them in a bucket and brought them to the local lake where they saw large predatory fish such as largemouth bass and pickerel. I asked them if they would be really happier in the lake. They begged me not to put them there. I brought them back home and never had any problems since.
I wish I had included your comment in my video. If only I had known - that’s brilliant! 😂
Ignorance is blitz . Sometimes people just have to give you their opinion before even thinking. It's good to hear the feelings of others but with an open mind. Great video like always my friend.
lol, I’ve never heard that play on the phrase before. Yep, and sometimes those people actually learn from us by our responses. Thanks you so much, Danny!
Youve listed some really good points along with great presentation showcasing your fish. I dont believe this ethicality question just applies for our beloved African cichlids but also applies to every other fish and pets in general! Keeping a 6 foot snake in an enclosure does not seem ethical at all but when it comes to keeping pets there will be some ethicality issues at play. I learned that as long as you give the pet a good quality of life. Food, healthcare, live food for stimulation, then you should be alright
I like how you make videos on almost everything that comes in notice of you regarding the fish.
big fan from India.
Thanks my friend. I still get amazed that someone so far away has seen me on here. RUclips is so incredible. I appreciate you watching and your comment!
oh my gosh my favorite fishing tank is 4:47 ❤ beautiful colors. Well, I have multiple favorites in your tank.😂
You like the fusco, Sam? He’s gonna just keep getting better and better. Thank you 🥰
Great video. Topic addressed.👍🏿
Thanks, Donnie 🥰
@@CichlidCharmer you're welcome. Keep up the good work.
That was a good way of handling a negative comment.
Thanks, Jeremy
Most of the fish in the hobby have lived bred and know nothing about lake malawai… these fish are well adjusted to captivity, and judging by the appetite of my cichlids they like the food and breed like crazy, if they werent happy they wouldnt eat or breed all the time. Great video! Long time fishkeeper here new sub here🎉
Thanks for the support! Yeah it sounds like you have lots of happy fish. 🐠
@@CichlidCharmer i hope! They seem quite happy 😊
Good video man. Like you, I respect the opinions of others. I have just one question for the person that left the comment. If they feel that way about the fish in Lake Malawi what about every animal that is kept in the zoo? How cramped are those cages compared to the open space of the wild? Or is this just about fish only?
Good question! Thanks for the comment!
There are people who think it's unethical to eat a chicken egg ....
Just an emotional remark ....
Great video👍
Don’t tell me you eat chicken eggs…! 🤬
@@CichlidCharmer 😱lol🤣
I guess it could be said, we kill every Fish we keep. Same with our Dogs and Cats. They are loved; cared for and kept at top until, but no matter, they die in our care. What would life be without them? We F around and we find out. Joy and pain of life and death. What we do is quite moral as well as Humane. It is good to challenge our convictions as to determine if we have gone off the beaten path and become something less than stellar. This Hobby has come a long way and it will get better still; especially as we question ourselves as you and your commenter just did! Fabulous video; thank you; Keep Keeping!
What an awesome, well-thought out comment. Thank you, sir!
I haven't been keeping African cichlids too long, but the other fish i keep live much longer than they do in the wild.
Fish need homes too. There's lots of African cichlid's on the market. If you set your tank up properly, even aggressive fish can be happy. They like it I think....they seem happy. They love the frozen shrimp.
One point not made here is that, most fish don’t use the whole lake, river, or ocean. Except for large, open-water fish that like to roam, most of the fish we keep have comparatively small habitats or territories. For a very clear example, a betta’s territory in a rice paddy is about the size of a shallow aquarium. But what about Lake Malawi cichlids? Well, mbuna naturally have territories that measure from a few feet to tens of feet, depending on species, age, and locality. Big open-water haps are not as territorial, and tend to wander more. These conditions can be closely imitated in a tropical pond.
My African cichlids are very happy in their 125 gallon tank. Had em for years and tweaked their care over the years. They even have babies. Lots of learning and I got this shit down!
Good to hear! Feels good too, doesn’t it?
Ive thought about this. I don’t like the idea of wild caught fish put into tanks. But tank bred fish know no different. And they get spoilt/looked after. Do territorial fish even explore the whole lake? Or just set up shop in 16 square feet?
Excellent question, Paul. They probably don’t set up shop very close to someone else’s shop, but it’s hard to find that kind of info online. Thanks for the comment
The whole ethical debate can be applied to keeping any animal in captivity. As always, it's a balance between quality of life in captivity vs quality of life in the wild. I believe the better living conditions you can provide, space, food, security etc the more ethical it is. Extreme I know, but for example, keeping nano fish in a 800 gallon planted tank, is more ethical than keeping an oscar in a 75,all other parameters being equal. There is a massive sliding scale in between and it is down to each individual fishkeeper to know where to draw the line. Inevitably there will be a grey area where one person thinks a scenario is fine and another doesn't. In my opinion keeping african cichlids is at the more challenging end of the spectrum but not impossible to overcome. I personally wouldn't keep them because i don't want to deal with the aggression issue, but if you are happy to, and have a plan B if a riot breaks out, then go for it.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Every last word is completely how I feel. Thanks for watching and for your wonderful comment!
Keeping African cichlids is completely ethical. The fish we own and buy are NOT from a lake, more likely someone’s basement. If anything we provide a home to a fish that most people can’t handle and harm while trying to care for. Otherwise the reef lakes are a product of creation, a man altered creation. Also the hybrid we know and love all came from aquariums, so if anything like you I imagine I am quite proud of my fish and the fact they thrive and breed even! Just tells me I’m doing ok by these fish, sorry social media
Well stated! And definitely if your fish are breeding, they are happy ones. That means you’re doing a great job 🥰
It doesn't really matter that our fish are not from a lake. They still have the instincts of lake fish. They don't lose their instincts in a mere few generations of captivity. (Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that keeping cichlids is unethical. You can read my opinions in my comment above. I'm just saying that the point about them being bred in captivity isn't as strong an argument as people seem to think it is.
I’d bring up the number of species thought to be completely extinct only to be found in hobbyists tanks. Tanked fish also don’t have to deal with parasites and predators that they would be exposed to, then there is the human affect on habitat
Excellent point!
Where did you get your mdoka from?
Ron’s Cichlids. It was an excellent shipment.
CC,
I don’t think it’s unethical if you trying to keep fish or this can go for any animal really. I mean we keep dogs in our home some of us have less of a yard than they would have in nature. I think it all comes down to care. Are we torturing the animals neglecting them and throw them in a tank to small for them to swim around then yeah it’s unethical. But not in your tank or majority of most fish keepers. What we need is education and people need to do research before they buy that fish because chances are it may grow to be to big and than we have a problem. Appreciate the video sir. I got some new fish for my CA/SA 100 gal tank. I picked up a Firemouth and a salvini. They are still babies and growing but can’t wait until they pretty up. I can’t wait to see what your CA/SA tank will look like. ❤😂🎉
Thank you. Oooo yeah, good fish. I just learned from Ben that the female salvini has more color than the male. Never would have guessed. I’m gonna start building my stand soon.
Dogs are domesticated animals. They have been selectively bred over thousands of years to coexist with humans. Many species couldn't survive "in nature." So, your analogy isn't really apt. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's unethical to keep cichlids. You can see my views in my comment above. I'm just saying your point about dogs isn't really comparable, because dogs are domesticated, fish aren't.
You nailed it on this video! The way I feel, and my opinion don't go after the Cichlid Charmer, this can get pretty long so in a nutshell, one has to be a responsible pet owner being it fish, dogs, cats, horses etc. providing them with the care they need to be healthy and happy, not doing so then don't own them. As for being unethical owning Cichlids because of their temperament well let me tell you Platies are the spawn demons from the underworld, the males are so aggressive when it comes to breeding, he will kill the female as to why I have 4 females per one male, so this is gross, but they will eat the fry as they are being born all in a frenzy party, pretty disgusting. GBR's will pair up to breed and kill off any competitors, if these fish were in the wild maybe they could just swim off and not get killed but something else would get them. Aquariums selling and buying of fish and is a business just like buy a gerbil or any other pet so "NO" it's not unethical owning Cichlids or any fish. Polly!
Way to go Polly!! I was laughing about your platties 😂😂😂
It's pretty gross to witness the frenzy party I tried to scoop babies up but I'm not fast enough I did get a few and now I have 5 happy healthy little platy babies, thank you for your channel!@@CichlidCharmer
Rescued 2 more babies from the spawn demons, thing is I had to put them in with the other older babies, so far no one has eaten them whew, see folks I do have a heart and try my best to be a good pet owner.
What size is the tank with 3 fx 6 on it? please
It is 240 gallons. 8x2x2
Thanks@@CichlidCharmer
@@iain2070you’re welcome
This is a comment i get a lot since i keep and breed snakes. There are pros and cons to everything. With snakes its a bit easier of an answer because they are solitary animals and kept, 1 per enclosure. Mother nature is not all butterflies and rainbows, life is hard for wild animals, and the majority dont ever make it to adulthood. Our fish never have to worry about when their next meal is going to be, if they are going to hunted down for another meal such as a bird, a bigger fish, fisherman, or any other preditor. In the wild, if an animal gets sick, its pretty much a gonner. In the aquarium hobby, they have every chance to get better and recover with our efforts. List can go on and on, and im sure it can in the opposite direction as well. Just a matter of perspective.
Well put. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
bu tankın ölçüsü nedir
681 liters. Thank you for asking 🥰
I have a 75g mbuna tank, and I do struggle with the ethical questions surrounding our hobby (not just keeping African cichlids, but any fish). I’m going to play devil's advocate and critique some of the arguments you use to defend keeping Malawi cichlids. . . .
1. Regarding plastic bags, trash, and human waste in Lake Malawi. Yes, that all sounds horrible, and so it's easy to think the water in our tanks is cleaner/healthier. But, as you pointed out at the beginning of your video, the volume of water in our tanks is practically nonexistent compared to the volume of water in Lake Malawi (2,070 cubic miles, according to Wikipedia). Someone can probably work out the math, but I'd guesstimate that thousands of tons of human waste can be dumped into Lake Malawi without it polluting the water as much as a single tablespoon of waste would pollute the water in our aquariums.
2. It doesn't matter that "none of our fish have ever even seen Lake Malawi." It's not that our fish remember Lake Malawi and now miss it. It's that their instincts and behaviors have evolved for that specific environment, and now they are forced to live in an environment that does not align with their evolved instincts. Traits that evolved over tens of thousands of years do not vanish in few generations of being bred in captivity. In other words, having been bred in captivity in the eastern U.S. does not turn them into "American cichlids," as you put it. They still possess the evolved instincts of their native home.
3. Aggression... I keep relatively peaceful species (yellow labs, yellow-tail acei, and maingano), and I've gone to great lengths to provide plenty of rock structure with countless caves and crevices for hiding places. So, I've had almost no problems with aggression.
4. Predation from birds… You sound speculative on this point. Does it actually happen? I don't know. Do birds routinely prey on Malawi cichlids? If not, then your point is invalid, rhetorical, even propagandistic. On the other hand, I'm almost certain that there is predation taking place in Lake Malawi among the many fish species. "Big fish eat the little fish" is pretty much a universal fact.
All that being said, the small tank habitat doesn't bother me. The fact that (in a properly set up and maintained tank, of course) cichlids can live a very long life, disease-free and exhibiting natural behaviors, testifies that they are able to adapt to aquariums well enough.
What does bother me is the other issue you raised: the harvesting of native specimens from Lake Malawi. I've heard that the Malawi government regulates the harvesting of fish in order to preserve the stocks (i.e., to prevent them from being overfished and going extinct). But I've also heard that many fish are poached (i.e., taken illegally) without any regard for conservation. This is what weighs on my conscience. I don't want my hobby to drive species to extinction.
You could say keeping any animal in a confined space is unethical.
Just 1 point: F1 is not wild caught, rather F0 is wild caught. When F0s are captive bred, you get F1s. Hence F1 have never been or seen the wild.
Thank you. I don’t know why I said F1. As soon as I replayed the video this morning, I caught that. Already added a note in the comments and video description that it should be WC.
Fish belong on my dinner plate!
I curse you! 🤪
Well, I don't agree. If the fish was taken directly from the lake, then I can see that it would be unethical. But most pf these fish are born in tanks. I do think it is of course important to keep them with correct parameters and in large enough tanks for there size. Just my opinion.
That’s actually what I was really saying in the end. I think we are doing a good thing for these fish, as long as we do it well.
Exactly 💯 %
I’d say 90% of fish sold have never been in lake Malawi as they are born and bred in a tank environment. So how can it be unethical ??
It doesn't really matter that our fish have never been in Lake Malawi. They still have the instincts of Lake Malawi fish. They don't lose their instincts in a mere few generations of captivity. (Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that keeping cichlids is unethical. You can read my opinions in my comment above. I'm just saying that the point about them being bred in captivity isn't as strong an argument as people seem to think it is.
F1 is the first generation of captive bred, from wild caught parents. The wild caught parents would be F0.
Yeah I don’t know why I said that. I caught it and corrected it right after the video posted. Sigh.
@@CichlidCharmer My apologies!! I didn't see it before I commented. Great video though! Lots of thought provoking points!
@@nutmeggs no worries! I always double check my work before I release it, but I had a brain fart. Appreciate you!
I guess the people that debate and criticize fish keeping, never heard of the C.A.R.E.s ACT or probably never kept a goldfish longer than a day.
What’s kinda funny is he was criticizing my tank , which is so much better than all those 30 gallon tanks you see with oscars in them.
@@CichlidCharmer we love all your tanks. Guy might be mad his wife won't let him get one lol
Technically all pets are in a similar situation. I disagree that it is unethical to keep pets as long as you’re not abusive and you love them, and you take care of them I see nothing wrong. Anyone who says that keeping of pets unethical, is not very bright, and would have to ignore, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution between humans and their pets.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
Not "all pets" are in a similar situation. Dogs for example are domesticated animals. They have been selectively bred for thousands of years to coexist with humans. Many dog breeds couldn't survive in the wild. So, comparing keeping dogs as pets to keeping wild animals as pets in not an accurate analogy. You're comparing apples and oranges, as the saying goes. (Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that keeping Malawi cichlids is unethical. You can read my views in my comment above. I'm just saying that the comparison with domesticated pets is not a good point.)
These fish are not from the wild they are captive bread just like a dog or a cat. They are technically domesticated. You are not arguing a valid point you are comparing apples to oranges. The problem is you don’t understand that captivity is captivity whether you are in a tank or in a home, don’t get me wrong but you don’t understand if these fish were pulled out of the lake as wild animals I would agree with you 100% but they’re not their bread in tanks and don’t know the difference.
@@nickabercrombie4001 You are 100% wrong. These fish are not "technically domesticated" just because they've been in captivity for a a few generations. They are not "just like a dog or cat." Show me a wild dog that looks and behaves like any domesticated breed. Where are poodles in the wild? There aren't any. They have been selectively bred for MANY generations to become the poodles we know today. It doesn't matter that these fish do not come directly from "the wild." It doesn't matter that they are bred for a few generations in captivity. They still possess the instincts of wild fish. Instincts and behaviors that evolved over thousands of years do not vanish in a few generations of captivity. You clearly do not understand the difference between wild and domesticated animals.
@@SArch-111 You still don’t get it you are wrong, your understanding is wrong, and your argument is wrong, and you’re not gonna convince me and I’m not gonna convince you, so let’s agree to disagree and you can go on hating on fish keeper’s that’s your choice. I hope you find some peace in your life and if you have pets, well that makes you a hypocrite. If you don’t then in your mind I guess you’re better than us that do. Good luck.
WC not F1,F1 fish would be one which has been bred from 2 Wild Caught (WC) parents
Thanks. I don’t know why I said that. First thing this morning I corrected it in the pinned comment.
@@CichlidCharmer I've also seen them designated as F0!
8:30 these fish look very tasty. I always get hungry in an aquarium.
😂 if any African cichlids look tasty, I think mine would look the tastiest
So is it also wrong to keep your pet bird in a cage, keep animals in a zoo, shut down Sea World and other oceanariums, shut down the Georgia aquarium, keep your dogs in the house, hamsters in a cage, etc! Some people were simply put on this earth to complain!
Yes, there are strong arguments to be made that it is unethical to keep birds in cages and wild animals in zoos. Sea World (and other similar parks) should absolutely be shut down. Dogs are domesticated animals, so that's not comparable to keeping wild animals in captivity. (Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that keeping Malawi cichlids is unethical. You can read my opinions in my comment above. I'm just saying that your points are not very good ones.)
You know what’s really unethical? Flying to Tanzania to swim in a lake and bother wild fish.
😂😂😂
I do not consider this unethical.
Thank you
Why just Africans? Why not ALL pets- fish, turtles, reptiles, cats, dogs, birds. Let’s not stop there, what about zoos? That guy can go live in the lake, give me a break!
I think it’s the idea that they are so aggressive and confined to a small space with each other. It isn’t stopping me though 😎