The Casual vs Competitive Debate w/ Kyle Hill I The Command Zone 313 I Magic: the Gathering
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- Опубликовано: 4 мар 2020
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Show Notes:
The world of Commander has experienced a growing fissure between “casual” and “competitive” players. On this episode, we’re joined by acclaimed science communicator and avid EDH-aficionado Kyle Hill to discuss and debate the virtues of both playstyles.
Can these two very different philosophies ever learn to live together in harmony? Or is the format destined to fracture? Let’s debate!
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What we talked about on THE END STEP:
Kyle’s New RUclips Channel:
/ kylehillscience
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Where to find Kyle online:
Twitter: @Sci_Phile
Instagram: @Sci_Phile
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Commander/EDH Official Rules, Banlist, Forums, and more:
mtgcommander.net/rules.php 
Игры
Thanks for having me back bois! Love talking with you and all things EDH
Woooooo. You're awesome man. Gotta get games in with you again. That one game while my coin flips never flipped wasn't great lol
Kyle Hill can’t wait to see the Kyle Hill and the legendary Chef Nathan long hair crossover part 2!
now I wanna jam some cEDH games with you Kyle!
Hi kyle. Glad you showed up to mention your new channel, i’ll have to check it out and see your latest supervillain escapades.
I always wonder if you Selvala was casual or cedh... well got my answer. I also play a Yarok and feel the same way, its the strong for casual in general.
cEDH players: If you like this video and you want Josh and Jimmy to know that, remember to thumbs up and share this video with your friends.
Some thoughts:
At 13:17 Kyle says there's no social contract, and goes on to clarify that there's no prior spoken or unspoken agreement that certain strategies like land destruction are de facto off-limits. I personally think that these things are true, but there's more to the social contract than just specific disallowed strategies. I think there's a strong emphasis in both play environments that everyone should have a good time, but in the cEDH environment people have already agreed on a common framework for what that looks like. People often say that cEDH is about not caring about their opponents having a good time (which would be the true absence of a social contract), but I actually care very deeply about my opponents having a good time. If I think they're not going to have a good time playing against my cEDH deck I put it away and play something else. Kyle goes on to explain this later on at 45:30. I definitely agree with the explanation, I just wouldn't use the title "no social contract".
At 24:55 Kyle raises a really interesting point that I wish he would have expanded on! The idea that some things are "not competitive" is really pervasive in the cEDH community. You hear a lot of people talk about viability and whether things are good enough. Just because something isn't a 10 doesn't mean it's appropriate for casual tables!
At 51:27 Kyle says you need foils if you want be at the tippy top of the format and I would agree with him. Foil islands tap for UU and I won't respond to anyone who says otherwise.
I've never felt closer to Kyle than I do when he admits to being bad at limited at 56:50
I LOVE the explanation at 59:00 that Commander flexes different muscles, and I would 100% agree. When people say "Why don't you just go play Vintage", my answer is usually that I don't like Vintage and it doesn't flex the same muscles that cEDH does.
1:04:00 I got SO excited when Kyle started talking about when Spike Feeder came out and am devastated that he was talking about the card and not the handsome gentlemen on RUclips.
Overall I think this was a very balanced and comprehensive look at some things that a lot of people don't understand! Would love to see more Kyle on the cast in the future!
You guys need to get Kyle on the show.
also Shiv'em Jim!
Great reply, and I love your channel and content. One thing that I will say is that cEDH is the epitome of "doing powerful stuff feels good." Playing strong magic cards just feels good and my playgroup always has the "oh no" moment when something devastating is cast or hits the board. I wouldn't say my playgroup is cEDH at all, but playing "People looking to the right" tribal isn't something that anyone in my group finds fun or interesting. Playing powerful cards just feels good as a player, so we have oriented towards that goal.
yeah im sorry no
commander is a casual formate, and making it competitive bring out the worst kinda people, people who end games in 3 turns which is extremely unfun
@@sharktenko267We disagree and that's okay. There's no need to call people names.
@@F3A5T implying Science Thor would ever intentionally or willingly come to Winterpeg, Manasnowba
@shark: this isn't nessisarily true. However, I have seen things like this, or people trying to spike tables before, And that can be incredibly unfun. But if everyone builds with intention of high power level, you can actually find a lot of new and interesting things out about the commander format. Combos and interactions you may never heard of.
I recomend actually checking out OPs channel, the spike feeders. While some games end quick, most feel like standard commander games still, just with high power level decks. Still has the same banter and such as a normal game.
I really feel a need for an episode with Kyle v The Professor v Jimmy v Josh
yes please
I don't think the world is ready for that much greatness.
The college would finally have someone to teach science 😂
I need this.
Definitely!!
Absolutely fantastic episode. Kyle, Josh, and Jimmy knocked it out of the park with the representation of the CEDH community. Fantastic job navigating the VERY turbulent waters of that topic.
Major props and thank you so much for this wonderful episode!
Command zone needs to invite you to play a CEDH game on their channel
Kyle said there is no budget in the video. However I have seen discord and webpages making cEDH on a "budget" like this list tappedout.net/mtg-decks/najeela-tempo-500/ I understand this would not be the optimised version of the deck and you can argue to switch this certain cards. So is there a subsection of people playing cEDH on a budget and how many does so?
Tupiaz he literally says after saying “there is no budget” that “there are people who play on a budget” lol of course there are people who try and have strong decks that aren’t rich
@@bryanphilips5182 That was my reason for my question. It qot answer more in depth towards the end of the episode.
@playing with power mtg
Didn't Kyle contradict some points you made on the Professor's cEDH video? I don't ask accusingly, but because I am confused about those differences, such as budget barring the door to cEDH versus using proxies, like you talked about. Enjoyed Kyle here! Well spoken, polite, and knowledgable. Enjoyed you with the Professor, too! I am trying to reconcile what he has said with what you said before.
Kyle Hill reminds me of that guy always telling me my men's bodywash is synthetic trash in recent youtube ads.
bruh, I can't stop seeing it, if he put on a few pounds it would be a mirror match
@@evantowell6923 ya.... I remember those William painter ads a few months ago. Your description is a little uncanny.
lol
@@kylehill no u
@@dbptwg I have personalized ads turned off
Phelddagrif came up a couple of times, and I just want to mention that there is a cEDH deck called Hippo Hulk. It gets infinite mana and a Suture Priest, then drops infinite hippos on its enemies. It is by no means top tier, but its is a sight to behold.
Heard about that from Nathan when he was a guest on the labratory maniacs
Ok I am interested now, any chance you know of a list for this Hippo monstrocity?
Arcdemon44 playing with power has a gameplay with it as well
Getting buried under hippos sounds so hilarious, I wouldn't even mind if someone pulled that on me in a casual pod once in a while... 😂👍🏻
Shouldn't have gone into the comment section. Now I need to build that deck... or as close as I can get with what I have lying around....
"Casual, Serious and cEDH"
i agree with the addition, you can't have black and white without the gray area
I like the 5-tier model: 5. jank / relaxed, 4. casual, 3. focused, 2. optimized, & 1. competitive. The "serious" category being considered sound like the optimized category, just below competitive decks at the top.
@@narkfly How are Optimized and competitive different?
@@somefishhere they talk about it a lot on commander's quarters. There's even a whole video dedicated to it, but if I remember right the main difference is optimized tier is the best possible deck for any specific commander with competitive tier only including the best possible deck for the competitive commanders.
@@somefishhere The main difference is in competitive, rule 0 (the social contract) is exchanged for simply trying to win as fast as possible, no matter what. CEDH typically has more tutors and ramp, again to try to win as fast as possible - and lots of single target removal / interaction / counter spells. Optimized usually still has some board wipes, and Competitive will exchange life as a resource, has almost no politics, & typically wins through infinite combos. The Command Zone had a previous episode on the 5 tier model:
ruclips.net/video/mgGm_74Lc9M/видео.html
I like “Semi Competitive” more than Serious.
Someone told me the main difference between cEDH and casual EDH (which Kyle mentions briefly in this episode): casual EDH has big and crazy board states; cEDH has big and crazy stacks. I play both styles and I've found this to be true. Thanks for accurately representing the differences and similarities between these styles of play, y'all!
also commander can have crazy big stacks, just depends on meta.
@@blaze556922 I hear that! I enjoy both, depending on the day.
Here's the layout
Casual EDH: if that's the way you want to play then that's fine
Competitive EDH: if that's how you want to play then that's fine
Pubstompers: you don't belong to either of these groups and you are toxic
and then theire are guys likke me which decks are geniuly to strong for casual deck but to weak for cedh goota love playing high power
Pubstompers are cEDH though
@@exsimon No. cEDH will most likely seek other cEDH decks. Granted you can't be a pubstomper in cEDH it is just a deck. Most pubstomper will most likely have a 7-8 level causla deck with combos.
@@dragullongblackfang8073 The more I watch this topic being raised the more I realize the problem is not cEDH vs. casual EDH but casual EDH vs. High powered EDH.
@@exsimon they really aren't, if you ask anyone in the cEDH community about their take on pubstomping, they will also tell you that true cEDH players don't actively go to casual tables just to gloat and pubstomp. People that pubstomp do not want to play with anyone that stands a chance against them, they get their high from knowingly bringing something high powered to a casual table and only have malice intent. CEDH players want the rush of high adrenaline from intense interaction in their game, knowing that you are pitted against opponents on the same power level and having to map out every move carefully is such an amazing feeling. What's the point of you sit down at a table knowing that you will win? Why not play against opponents that will put your knowledge and skills to the test? Pubstompers are the reason cEDH gets a bad name and most of us dislike them as much as casual players. They are toxic and a common nuisance to both sides of the format
Such an awesome episode!! Love what Kyle was saying around 45:00 about what cEDH does is immediately levels the playing field. My 8 and someone else's 8 can be very different, But a 10 is a 10. We all have the same intent. WE'RE ALL PLAYING TO WIN
Underrated comment, and VERY underrated channel!
B E G I N !
you guys rock
Jimmy should make a Godo helm of the host deck
I play against one in my pod and it is NOT to be trifled with.
O, I know that, but it would be the perfect mono-red commander for Jimmy, going all in. I personally like the deck, I watch Some CEDH on RUclips
He'd still end up Mana screwed
@@philpauley8155 Even with just helm and 98 mountains. He'll find a way.
He would still get mana screwed...
JLK: "..CON--"
Kyle: "..of Tarkir"
😂😂😂
50:20 Kyle is awesome
Caught that too. So funny lol
1:05:21 Hard disagree, I've cast Yawgwill hundreds of times now and I still make a big deal out of it every time, it just feels good casting old super powerful cards, it feels like some ancient forbidden magic.
Coming back to this after a while, that's how I feel about infinite loops. I always feel like a damn King whenever I pull one off.
'I only play with ultra-pros'
Ever heard of dragon shields
Uh, yeah
Literally better
@@koelkast9 I agree Ultra-Pro's are better than Dragon Shield, specifically Pro-Matte. Eclipse sleeves are kinda garbage tier with the dragon shields
@@Servbot40 I prefer the thickness and toughness of eclipse sleeves but boy do they cloud up a foil. I definitely prefer dragon shields if I want to enjoy the art on my cards.
@@iPhone4Gaddict yeah I go for dragon shields like 80% of the because you're definitely not wrong about that
I really dislike when people say cEDH is not fun. It’s a different type of way to play. It’s competitive in the sense of the flow of the game. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s serious. In fact in cEDH there less salt, because its expected to do thing that break the “social contract”
Everytime I hear these guys talk about cedh I always notice they they talk down on it almost exclusively or they just compare it to more casual edh play in unfavorable terms.
Golden Griffon that’s not a cedh player. That’s a pubstomper. Any self respecting cedh player or magic player at that is not going to sit down with a top tier deck when people are playing low powered casual.
@Golden Griffon that's not even a power level thing. I daresay most casual players don't enjoy playing against a true chaos deck.
@Golden Griffon No. Many non-cEDH players who end up in that situation on the receiving end *perceive* that person as a cEDH player. It's not. It's in the name, *competitive* EDH. Pubstomping isn't competitive. There's little challenge, it's just a way of making yourself feel better by showing "superiority" over others.
And I'd argue a decent amount of time the deck itself being played isn't even on cEDH level, even a case of a 7-8 against a table of 4-5's can feel massively oppressive with a good draw. I've had those situations before (and was called out for playing a "competitive" deck by someone new joining the playgroup), while in 9 out of 10 games the deck (while probably being somewhat on the stronger side) still plays perfectly fine with the rest of the table. It's just that that person ended up with me getting that 1 out of 10 in the very first game we played. Yeah, it sucks. For everyone involved, including me. But I still enjoy the deck overall way too much to drop it just due to that. And considering that I'm still asked to join in a regular basis, the others don't seem to have lasting hard feelings regarding those few games either.
@@Captmorgann Thing is, a big enough difference in power level, and, to a point, understanding of the game, will FEEL like pubstomping to the self-proclaimed casual crowd. When cEDH came up, I tried to make 2 of my favorite commanders competitive,just to see how well it would go. Just not possible. cEDH is just that much harder that the wrong commander or wrong deck idea already throws you out of the game. The bad thing about that was that my improved decks (just flatter curve and a bit more consistency), while by far not good enough to keep up with the 10s, were now way too efficient to still play along nicely with the casual gang at the store.
Kyle: "The name of the [cEDH] game is speed"
Me, a Blood Pod player: "Can't hear you over this Trinisphere and Thalia, bud."
Me, playing Curious control:
*Visible confusion*
It's still speed you're just making the speed go down.
Lol. The competitive slow deck
Ange Falkenrath would like to know your location.
Laughs in Ruric Thar stax
@1:17:23
Kyle: At the bottom it says in big bold letters, the creators of this list unida- udina-....
Josh and Jimmy (simultaneously): Unanimously?
Dyslexia is ofetn comorbid with ADHD so 🤷🏻♂️
As a magic player, but Commander newbie, I started hating on "Cedh" decks cause some... buttholes in my LGS always wanted to play with my friends and I and our recently open Anje, Sevinne and Kadena decks with their OP Reaper King or Grand Arbiter Augustin decks all the time; and of course they roflstomped us and it was no fun. Later I learned that those were not actual Cedh decks, and they were "Make me feel good for wrecking newbies" decks. Now that I've gotten more into commander, and have more optimized decks, I dont hate Cedh, it's totally okay as a "sub format", I just wouldn't be able to get into it since as a college student, my budget is very low and Vampiric Tutor and Force of Will are not budget-friendly at all. Great episode!
Odds are that you can find a group of cEDH players that don't care if you play with proxies. People usually care way more about making sure you're playing your best rather than mediocre because of budget constraints
Yeah I don't even know if Reaper King can get to true cEDH. Man sounds like some jerks though sorry you encountered them.
@@boredcryptek5513 It most certainly can not
being broke? no problem, just proxy!
It's not a separate format any more than the game they played in Space Jam is still definitely basketball.
cEDH is not about pubstomping noobs. cEDH is about putting four players together who want to play Space Jam commander. They confirm that yes, they want to play Space Jam, they have a deck, and let's do this.
I agree with Jimmy we need a "Serious" category. I feel I fall in that area with most of my decks. 1-5 Casual, 5-8 Serious, 9-10 cEDH.
Always play serious. Best of both worlds!
Before I even start the pod. Both are valid. Don't pub stomp. RULE 0 People! Learn how to evaluate your decks. Built multiple decks at different levels.
or just dont play compeitive as its boring and non-fun
That is certainly an opinion. I'm a filthy casual by choice, but I understand the urge to play high powered decks. I also understand the urge to play janky piles of random cards.
MadThespian I have a 5.5 lvl brago deck and a 9 lvl Edgar’s Markov deck
@@sharktenko267 People have different taste in what is fun. Allowing people to do so while not hurting others is what allowing you to have fun. To dictate how other people should have fun is a very narrow minded world view, intolerant and speaks against a freedom we in the western world proclaim we cherish.
@@Tupiaz I agree with you but trying to extend this all the way to "American freedom" is a huge reach
Interesting to see several sites start this topic almost simultaneously, guess we are all preparing for this "Commander Year".
1) Make multiple decks so no matter which group you join you will have something to play with.
2) Don't be toxic.
Nah, the cEDH community pushed really hard to be on these channels last year. Also they are campaigning very loudly to get some cards banned now. And fissure between the two playstyles is on a new all time high. It was absolutely logical to pick up the topick. Hope Jimmy and Josh can now return to their normal routine and be done with the topic.
I'm happy to see more disdiscussions around cedh its makes getting into easier
No it doesn't. The gatekeeping is done by the excessive prices, not the lack of information
exsimon proxying is completely okay in the cedh community if you want to get into it you can just print out a deck to start off. Cedh players want to play real cedh and don’t want a player to win because they spent more money.
There's also some serious budget lists that are pretty close to what value of cards people tend to use when building new decks. It's just that those tend to use cards that aren't necessarily in most "casual" collections, since they simply aren't as common for those, so while the overall price of the deck is similar to what they have, the required investment is higher due to simply not having a lot of those cards in their existing collections.
Prof and Ryan from Playing with Power arrived at a good conclusion in this discussion. Everyone plays to win, cEDH is just a deckbuilding mindset.
Treyden Talbot That is not entirely true, or at least not complete, since the politics for exemple is not about deck building and sometimes you play something just for the fun of it, which you don’t in cEDH
@@paulg7401 To be fair, even decks that build around politics should have win conditions in them. Some people (myself included) don't like playing with decks that don't actually try to win. These decks usually end up HEAVILY prolonging game's and just make them last much longer than they should.
Please add win conditions even to group hug decks! If you make people draw cards, throw in a psychosis crawler. If you give people hippo tokens, throw in the suture priest. You don't have to go infinite. Just something that taxes players a bit on the free stuff you give them makes the game so much more interesting, imo.
@@paulg7401 That's true. I often don't even play to win. I just want the most interesting plays
Robert Bauerle Oh im not sayin i dont try to win, i just say that sometimes i play something because its effect will be fun, while its not at all the optimal play to win. I dont do it if it puts me way behind the other player tho. Im just sayin in « casual EDH » you generally do not make your decisions only in the optics of winning, but also of fun and game experience, which isnt a deck building thing :) But its like in every game/sports between casual and competitive, i dont understand the hate around cEDH while its the same situation as literally everywhere
Definitely not true. There are plenty of EDH-players who build their decks with some sort of win strategy, but a lot of us don't sit down at the table with the intention of winning. I have a pretty durdly self-mill deck that really doesn't do much. I built that thing with the intention to be able to let newbies and unknown playgroups have a go at me and give me just enough defence to decide how early I want to let them win, with the self-mill win-plan as sort of little surprise. I have a rather controlly U/G deck that aims to stay in the game for about half an hour, eventually winning slow games via Biovisionary if nobody starts anything interesting that I want to see played out. There's the whole wide field of group hug.
For a signifikant number of EDH-players the whole point of the game is sitting down and having some fun with the group they play with. Winning is an optional extra for that subset of EDH-players. cEDHers, on the other hand, like the thrill of having a mental challenge while doing that.
I have no interest in cEDH personally but this was still a great and entertaining episode that I found very informative.
One line anyone familiar with the cEDH subreddit read this before "Be excellent to each other". I have this mindset attempting any kind of socialising and I love to see it preached effectively here, well done everyone!
I just want to say that cEDH games can be also really long, especially against stax. Yes most of them are faster, but not always.
They also simply take longer because of more actions happening each turn. A round of the table in the first few turns can take up to 10 minutes alone.
As an almost exclusively cedh player, I loved this episode. Overall a good contribution to the growing amount of content addressing the many misconceptions surrounding the idea of cedh. Thanks!
Doing my best!
casual edh is exhausting and boring as hell with almost zero interaction.
@@retardo9633 I found that to be the opposite when I tried Cedh. The decks jsut focused on comboing off, ramping to high heaven and getting their pieces in play with no real interaction to the other players as if they were not even there. Just a race to who can get their pieces out first and combo off.
Bring Kyle back on game knights 👌🏾🙏🏽
This is probably the best episode Command Zone has ever done. Great job guys!
Wooooooah Kyle's here!! Good luck on the new channel, Kyle
It's an important conversation. I'm by no means a serious CEDH player, but it's a slippery slope because I like deck building and if there's a "best card" for a slot I can't see a reason to not include it.
first 3 mana mana rocks become 2s... then your diabolic tutors and masterminds acquisition becomes demonic and vampiric tutors. Cabal stronghold becomes a coffers.... and before you know it you own a Gaea's cradle, a mana crypt and you're eying up power artifact for a grim mololith combo.
I love the channel. My roommate got me into magic about 2 months ago and I love it. Your content is great for new and veteran players. Thank you
Cool shout out to Casually Competitive, it's a very solid and fun channel
Yeah seriously, those guys are great. Play to Win and The 99 also have some really good gameplay videos. Good new cEDH content creators have been sprouting up lately.
@@Hitzel also enjoy the deck techs from the 99
yeah, they got it down!
Regarding potential Fish Hulk bans, something needs to go. It's warping cEDH. The question is what? Banning any of Flash, Oracle, or Hulk would either nerf or eliminate the wincon, so the question is what knock--on effect would it have on casual? Banning Flash would have no effect on casual as it is simply not played. Banning Oracle would have only a minor effect on casual as it tends to just act as an extra copy of Lab Man, like Lab Jace. Banning Hulk would have a significant effect on casual, as that is played in G/X sacrifice/reanimator decks. In my experience, a Hulk hitting the board means that player is about to win outright (tutoring for 3-4 creatures and just putting them straight in), and it's very unfun, so, just on a personal level as a casual player, I'd reban Hulk, as it would rediversify competitive *and* de-competitive-ify casual. Alternatively, if you feel Hulk is fine in casual, ban Flash.
Casual has too many of those hit-the-board-and-make-trouble-permanents, they only ban the ones that completely warp absolutely everything around them like a black hole when they hit the field (like Paradox Engine in their opinion). Hulk is bad, but not super bad.
Welcome to the future, we have no Flash
I think that the edh community needed this video. I think it is important for both playstyles to understand each other and for moments of honest communication (such as this video) to take place. I’ve definitely been ripped on for building powerful decks, even when i was upfront about it and told them what to expect. I hope this video can bring edh players from both ends of the spectrum together with a greater understanding of why this format was developed in the first place. I wish great games to all of you!
Love Kyle! Bring him more often!
I feel like there’s something to be said(and I’m not sure how to categorize it but it occurred during the debate portion about being a better player) about the interactiveness experienced between cEDH players in that if you listen to banter between say, the Spike Feeders, as they narrate their turn you hear “I would like to...” or “Can I...” as opposed to a casual “I’m going to...” or “I WILL play...” because as a casual there’s maybe a sort of entitlement or expectation which affects the experience of the game whereas with competitive there’s a careful consideration and appreciation for every play(sorry if that came out wrong).
Could also be that interaction is way lower in casual. I know several people that straight up say you shouldn't run counter spells. So saying "I'm doing X" just feels more natural because you'll rarely get countered and people often just have less ways of stopping you from doing the majority of your plays.
yeah no i disagree
you should speak with purpose otherwise its just boring
The difference in wording is meaningless.
@@Slo-Mode i dont know where youre playing but in my group theres a strong love for blue
@@sharktenko267 I play at my LGS and we have a really active and large community of people. we literally have everything from cEDH to jank to casual people who hate counter spells. It's random assignment for what pod you're put in so learning how to play nice with all the very different people has been a fun challenge. But I definitely agree not being ok with counter spells is a little extra.
I think the "if a card only effects 5% of the people playing, why ban it?" mentioned at 1:17:50 argument for Flash should have been applied to cards like Iona (who didn't affect anyone, at all.)
Great episode! :)
1: flash effects more than 5%
2: iona is broken trash
Flash/hulk has a number of hard stops to kill the lines within it, and (if a game goes even slightly longer than expected...) is kinda hard to hide... Iona just locks out any mono-colored, and even splash-based 2-color, play at a metagame level.
It affected me.... I was hardcasting it in Boros :(
@@mtgskunkworx1671 1:and what about mono-color decks?
2: yeah no sorry but that didnt get rid of anything i said about flash
@Najawin torpor orb, Jester's Cap, stifle, the merfolk that replaces any non-cast etb with "just exile that shit," any means by which to prevent or limit a search. There are several points of failure to exploit: Flash, the hulk, the hulk actually dying, the hulk's search effect, the targets within the deck, the targets' ETB effects... There are more points to exploit than just the two spells in the named combo.
Maaaaan I'd love to see a game knights with some competitive Deck! Would be amazing to see Jimmy n Josh playing competitive!!!
Always a pleasure to see Kyle on the show.
Just building my first cEDH deck: Kess consultation. ;)
Thats a fun deck, trust me :)
@@unbanrofellos5786 I bet it is. ;)
@Varler thank you! :)
Well, good choice!
Someone needs to make an EDH Deck power level calculator where you plug in your deck list and it gives you a power estimate from 1 - 10.
doesn't Tapped Out "kinda" does that with the Competitive Meter?
Tapped Out has a "competitive meter"- it obviously isn't always correct, but it is there
Tapped out said my kenrith gates deck was 95% competitive, soooo
@@kaisinnott6774 Is it accurate?
@@HexproofAnarchist No, it runs semi competitive interaction, but other than that, no. It's probably 65-75% competitive
I've discovered instant win combos in my edh decks that I didn't know where there in the middle of a game before and it's such a fun surprise.
PLEASE CONTINUE THE DISCOURSE
So.. did the Void keep Kyle imprisoned because it contained an Immortal Sun?
That would suggest that Kyle is a planeswalker, so the answer is 100%, and I’m pretty sure he will use his ability to take over the world
I love watching cEDH. Never played it, but it is insane to watch the interactions
commander can be like that too, just depends on meta
voltagetoe tru!
Great cover at the beginning! It sounded good. I loved it!
Thanks for taking the time to get this conversation going on this subject, I am pretty new to expanding out of my own play group at a recent magicfest and ran into the problem with floating inbetween the casual and competitive ratings. It was hard sitting at a competitive table and doing nothing, then trying a casual and running away with the games. Unfortunatly I got kind of turned off from attending future commander events due to how the "ratings" system worked on the vouchers in the Magicfest command zone. The "competitive" players were great to be around and very supportive, but in the casual section the salt ran deep during and after games if they lost. I am hoping this was just a one time thing and I would have a good time by either trying to bring more decks that spread the "power level" to fit into groups better.
Tl:dr of the episode... Both are good but everyone needs to play at the same-ish power level in a game
Also #FreeParadoxEngine
@@Arcdemon44 agreed
Glad they added something new to the discussion...
@ Super Noodles -- 100 % agreement there. As much as i'd love to try Competitive Commander, i just don't live anywhere close enough that has an FNM that's not Casual....
I’m so here for more Kyle on Game Knights.
Loved the s/o for my boys at Casually Competitive! Love that channel!
You guys need to have Kyle on more often. Love your episodes w Kyle and great conversations and insight in this episode. Thank you guys.
"Casual players aren't putting Flash into their Muldrotha decks."
I may need to re-evaluate my life choices.
same lmao i have a high power (not competitive) tasigur deck that wins with dramatic scepter and drawing my deck with tasigur
...same...
I just took Flash out of mine a month ago. But I still want to pull off Flash Nyxbloom Ancient shenanigans
I only have it my Rayami, no Hulk though.
@Najawin flashing crater-daddy does win games
I think alot of the issues ive come across with CEDH as a casual player is that some people are just CEDH players at heart and do not know how to tune a deck down.
An example: One of the players at my LGS is just your stereotypical spike, always makes decks that are 10's, money is no object etc. etc., well the thing is he realizes (finally) that people dont like playing with him because he ONLY has CEDH decks and most of the LGS has at the very most a 7 or low 8 in terms of power level when it comes to their decks, so he always wins, roflstomps the table and everyone has the feelbads. Here is the problem though, he tried to make a deck for casual commander play. This thing in HIS mind was "tuned down". He still combod out on turn 4 for 4 straight games. I looked at his deck and i had to go ".....i dont think you understand what it means to be casual man. this is basically just 'weaker CEDH'." And he was genuinely confused. I had to sit down and explain that alot of what he had was just high cost (money wise) hard in the paint CEDH and showed him a few of my decks. My decks are by absolutely zero means CEDH material and i dont want them to be, but they are still strong and can still go off, just at a slower pace than a CEDH deck. He is just a CEDH player with no CEDH players to play with and thats what he wants from the social contract, all out no holds barred EDH gameplay and i cant fault him for what he enjoys.
Long example aside, the point im getting at is: When you bring CEDH to a casual table, thats where alot of players get those bad memories. If someone like the spike feeders would discuss with the CEDH community in general that they should check with pods at LGS if they are playing CEDH or not before sitting down to avoid these horrible miscommunications that would help TONS with this issue. If you sit down with your CEDH deck at a casual table, you best be ready to be at a completely disinterested table because they have no hope to compete with you and your social contract is vastly different from their own. Or at the very least, make a deck that you can bring out for casual tables. it can have one or two expensive cards (gaia's cradle etc.) but just tone it down enough so the casual tables can compete with you in the event there arent any CEDH players at your LGS that day.
cedh decks do not belong in commander events - completely opposite/clashing philosophies.
What you're describing is one of the only things I discuss with the cEDH community. The trick is getting me to shut up about it.
@@TheSpikeFeeders Ok, i hear what youre saying. But what if: I dont want you to shut up about it? :P
You know what I most like about your Podcasts? Your social way to treat each other. For example when Jimmy wanted to introduce a thrid cathegory and Josh rejected that on air, Jimmy wasn't mad or anything. He just smiled said "let's keep going" and keeps being happy. I know so many people who would have had a toxic reaction in that situation. I also know so many people who would have said it in a way ruder way than Josh did. Also the way you talk about cedh and that no matter which of both you like it's okay, your whole podcast is all about respect, tolerance and manners which is why I really enjoy watching your videos!
That was a really good intro song performance
Kyle: talk talk talk
Jimmy: ......
It's my job
I love this so much! I’ve been waiting to hear about Kyle and playing CEDH. So glad this is out ❤️❤️
Very nice to see you guys showing Kobe since love. Love this channel
so back in the day I got the Inalla precon, added some altars and wanderwine prophet and my friends complained that the deck wasnt very casual. later on I found some friends who play cedh and they introduced me to the format and even helped me with finding the cedh database which directed me to the official Inalla discord and ever since then i have been learning more and more about the format.
cEDH isn't necessarily always lightning fast
The way I've always described it is, EDH = WWE, cEDH = MMA
That ain't a bad comparison lmao
edh=aikido
cedh=taekwondo
pioneer=karate
modern=muay thai
legacy=bjj
vintage=mma
WWE is scripted and gay
Na dude, WWE is fake lol. Bad comparison
Hooray! Great guest to have.
I actually like the analogy of pick up basketball and league basketball. Such a great way to think about it. Either way, it’s basketball but the mindset is different.
Thank you very much, for creating more insight into cEDH for the more casual players.
Also LSVs beard at 42:00 is horrible :D
1st let me say I ❤️ you guys 2nd I have 3 boys they are growing up in 20’s baby boy is 18. Surprisingly to me they started with their friends table top magic I hadn’t played magic since like 1996. So a couple years ago we and they started playing commander I was all in and relearning. In the debate over casual vs cedh our group has evolved from jank to casual to a little optimized and I see we are headed towards a more powerful commander meta and I have loved loved loved watching “the boys build and work on decks” that may not be specific to my meta but it is my meta we look forward to seeing nuisances that have been added. Of a deck you played last game I travel for work so I don’t get into the play group with months intervals. I see that crater hoof can go into my tatyova now and nobody blink a eye. So the destination isn’t the goal it’s the journey. Love y’all I have a weird meta
27:30 Did Kyle make a Star Craft reference? I love him
Love seeing Kyle on the show. He has such a fun and infectious energy
"Magic: The Gathering Johnson!" I just about died laughing. Love you guys and this show
Great to see Kyle back with the Command Zone boys. Hopefully we're about to get some Kyle Hill on Game Knights action.
I play casually but I love watching channels that talk and play cEDH. The neatest thing to me is cheap cards they notice that seems very viable to them and I compare those cards with what I play and also see in my games.
I am actually building my first CEDH deck and what's really cool and lucky for me is a solid amount of people are also trying to build their decks around the same time so we are on the same understanding. It's really a cool idea to dip into a stronger format.
I am on team I Want To Play A Game of MTG with Kyle Hill. One of my favorite RUclipsrs and possibly one of my favorite human beings on this planet even though I've never actually met him ^_^
He is as cool or cooler in person.
@@TheSpikeFeeders Do y'all have an episode with him on?
@@narkfly I wish! I just met him at MF Vegas last year.
I'm a combo player but still far from cedh but whenever I get my combos off people start saying I play cedh and they are super salty
Some People freak out about combos. It's rough hopefully you can find a better group
@@KavdaenMain as opposed to playing dinosaur tribal or some bullshit and cracking the shits when someone plays a Mana Crypt cos you didn't want to buy one? Leave the guy to play how he wants to.
@@chrismcfallan8265 don't feed the trolls boss. They just keep coming back with dumber and dumber things
@@SindanezDuskwind it comes down to that piece about being like I play control/combo style decks, can I sit at this table? Then if people get salty you can say they brought it on themselves. Also sucks though cos it means you are giving free info from the outset about your win condition.
As a casual player, I am very thankful for this video. My interactions with cEDH decks have mostly been through "Pub Stompers" than real cEDH. I know that cEDH is naturally a different beast than what I come to the game for, but it is a viable format and a very fun way to play as well. It has become a dirty word in most play groups, even as many try hards mirror competitive strategies. The worry that many casual players I've met has been the corrupting of the format: Moving towards more expensive cards and more toxic play styles. cEDH is a convenient boogieman, bt is not the source of either of these issues. I can't play cEDH because I don't make the money to afford those decks, but I aim to be able to keep up with budget options. To test my deck building skills with the resources I do have. However, I also do enjoy a more laid back style. I love using under used and under appreciated cards.
ALSO: Love the idea of the third tier of play. "Serious" is a great descriptor for players who aspire to play to win but don't have the budget or the tight tuning of cEDH.
But even these “serious” decks aren’t playing 30 instants like CEDH decks are, so yeah I don’t really agree with this subcategory. You can want to play to win whilst still adhering to the spirit of the format - variance and creativity.
I think the best advice I can give to someone who wants to always have a deck they can play at any table is to have a good range and never bring your strongest deck to your first game with a new group. That first impression of "he's not that strong" is so much better for you than "that guy brought crazy shit last time".
I can't afford a lot of decks, but I can share cards across them via proxies or just switching sleeves/cards around. I would recommend trying this if on a tight budget but still wanting to play powerful cards.
Make sure you have a deck that you can play against precons/very new players/relatively jank stuff (run zero tutors, all budget lands, try to stick to 2 or less colors, have a theme), one focused deck that you can play at high powered casuals (you can always be arch-enemy if your judgement is off and that is okay), and one that is just your strongest thing you are willing to make for when there are those players that just wanna go strong.
The best way for everyone to enjoy the experience is to have expectations set before the game starts. It's so substantial that I would say it's a better factor in everyone's enjoyment than anything you can ever do while you're deckbuilding.
No debate needed, casual is love casual is life.
Depends on the play group
What about Casually Competitive? :)
@@DivinePenguin00 yep my gem this who my powerlevel is but uh oh boy sosmetimes is funyn
Will Kyle do some Magic stuff on his channel?
Yes! Working on it now
Imagine having THE KYLE HILL responding...oh hi kyle
Great episode! What's the app called that Kyle mentioned he uses to track games? I like always having a backup infinite combo in my decks so that if and when the games go to that round 15 or the 2nd hour, you have an escape button to just end the torment and get to start fresh.
Timppen my group uses Gauntlet for our life counter. Everyone makes a profile with their different decks added. It keeps time of your game and keeps a record of wins and losses overall and broken down by deck.
I do enjoy having the shorter games for cEDH but the one thing my playgroup personally agrees on when we casually play is to not intentionally build decks that can end the game consistently before like turn 5 or 6 because then its like well darn my deck did not get to do anything.
I just love when Kyle hill is there !!!
I'm a simple man. I see Kyle Hill, I click
Ditto
@@creedplaysgames9811 I wanna play him again.
I ditto your ditto
I love the comparisons and debates. This is more of what we need. talk about magic and gameplay! It matters just as much as playing the game itself. Just learn everything you can so you can take your skills to the next level 🤙
That was the best intro ever!
Here from [THE FACILITY]
Hell yeah brother
I play Cedh all the time, start my journey with Command Zone content and then Playing with Power and so on... but guys Cedh is not a different format by any sort of imagination for example if you go and play standard with your token deck with a bunch of cards it won't be competitive but will still be standard, same with Edh and Cedh, we play high power Commander with bug amount of interaction and we have a lot of fun, one of the things I never hear out when you talk about Cedh is "Theoretically you can win by turn 2-3 or 4" but do you try to win turn when you have your combo on hand? No ofc not, because most of the time all 3 enemies has interaction so you will never o close to never try to combo out with no plan by turn 2 or 3 just for "trying" for a couple of reasons:
1: If you try to combo out on turn 2-3 everyone has close to 6 cards in their hands and your combo will be at least 2 pieces so you gonna be down 2 cards and every card in your hand is not counterspell or you cant cast every card in your hand because you waste mana on your combo so most probably you gonna get stop and set room for other people to win.
2: The second people who will try after you will have a clear path if everyone is tapped out (including you for trying to go off too early) and he just win for: No more interaction or everyone cannot deal with it anymore)
3: Keep the balance until is the right moment, turn 3 could be the right moment to combo off ? Yes ofc, but if you will do it you have to think: Can be stopped? and how I will recover from that position if that happen? for sure if you have your combo and Force of will /Pact of negation/etc back up to cover your win then go and win but is not that easy to set up that hand in early turns. (Happens sometimes but for sure isn't like 99% of the time turn 2 wins, the other 3 people will mulligan until they have some protection to your thing).
Really good episode, maybe JLK and Jimmy should play a little more Cedh to understand how it goes or brings Playing with Power to the show and they will explain exactly how it performs, I know you make your effort to calm down the community on this particular topic but you will never understand if you didn't give a real try.
The spike deck from Stronghold was also my first precon. I still play a version of it.
Excellent video. Thanks for highlighting this aspect of EDH.
I personally experienced an interesting situation: as a cEDH beginner I found myself highly motivated to BECOME a better magic player in general. With less than a year of experience in EDH I obviously still have a huge lack of knowledge and expertise in the format. Experiencing massive beatdowns in my first competitive games highly motivated me to learn about more cards and more possible interactions. Of course this is a double-edged sword and can cut both ways. It can fear away a few personalities from this kind of play style. But the community is great and not at all toxic about new players trying to set a foot into this more competitive scene of EDH.
In my mind CEDH is basically a a deck building exercise. Building you deck to win at all costs is different then playing to win at all costs.
55:27 why would it matter to crack your fetch later if someone else played vampiric tutor? I feel like I missed something here.
Scrolling through the comments to see if someone else was going to explain this. I don't get it either.
These are not all the scenarios, but:
- maybe someone tutored for Blood Moon or Back to Basics and you need to fetch a basic instead of a dual.
- you have two interaction spells (swan song, pyroblast) and need to delay the decision of which dual to look for because you need to look for a different dual if you need a 3rd color on your next turn.
the way he said it it's a little confusing though, you fetching doesn't affect other people's top of library tutor.
hopefully that makes sense.
Life is a resource. If you need Watery Grave but want to conserve life, why shock it in when you don't need to. It allows you to hold you interaction without allows spending the life. Also, what Jean said too.
Jean Ventura oooh, ok that makes total sense
Tyler Bloom good point
1:06:20 I play an Yidris storm cedh deck, it is a great deck at casual tables as well to hand to a newer player and see if they can figure it out.
Thank you for the valuable information about this "casual commander" I had no idea why these meren and atraxa decks never had the force of will for my turn 1 flash win.
This video makes me wanna see a cEDH episode of Game Knights! (Be that with Kyle, or some of the Spikes, or Playing with Power, or someone else) I wanna see Jimmy and Josh play cEDH!!!
1:31:30 Kyle reminds me of a young Handsome Jack.
I’ve definitely grown to enjoy cedh and playing in pods for pretty interactive games, especially since it’s unlikely someone will pop off and no one would have interaction to respond.
Finnish cEDH player here! We have a very vibrant paper cEDH scene here in Finland with lots of both interesting fringe brews and top tier strategies.
you get to play "the most efficent" cards
I'm excited for another Game Knights with Kyle :P, will Cassius be back to keep that rivalry going lol
Great episode. To the "deck diversity" con; as a relatively new EDH player, who enjoys watching cEDH content, I really noticed that a difference between EDH and cEDH is that often in cEDH decks are introduced as their playstyle, rather than their commander. E.g. I can say "This is my Ulasht, the Hate Seed" deck, but cEDH decks are often introduced as "Najeela Sushi Hulk" etc.
I love your pro about playing the most powerful cards. its totally why i love playing Oldschool 93/94. NOTHINg beats playing a land a mox a lotus cracking it for Wheel of Furtune turn one...