The Philosophy of Commander with The Professor l The Command Zone 278 l Magic: the Gathering EDH
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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Show Notes:
In this special episode, Jimmy is joined by The Professor from Tolarian Community College to discuss the Rules Committee’s newly released philosophy document.
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The Command Zone podcast is brought to you by Card Kingdom! Make sure to use our affiliate link the next time you purchase Magic cards or products: www.cardkingdom...
Huge thanks to UltraPro (www.ultrapro.com - @UltraProIntl) for sponsoring this episode and providing awesome prizes for our giveaways!
Find UltraPro on Facebook: / ultraprointernational
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Rules Committee Philosophy Document:
mtgcommander.ne...
Sheldon Menery’s Article discussing the Philosophy Document:
www.starcityga...
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What we talked about in THE END STEP:
Keyforge:
www.fantasyfli...
“How to Play” Keyforge video by The Professor:
• How To Play Keyforge -...
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Find The Professor online:
Twitter: @TolarianCollege
RUclips: / tolariancommunity
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@CommandCast
@JoshLeeKwai
@jfwong
Email us:
commandzonecast@gmail.com
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Huge thanks to Geoffrey Palmer for providing some of his amazing Living Cards animations for our videos. Follow him here:
/ livingcardsmtg
/ @livingcardsmtg816
Check out our sister podcast - The Masters of Modern:
collected.compa...
Commander/EDH Official Rules, Banlist, Forums, and more:
mtgcommander.ne...
Prof is so interesting on This show. Jimmy and Josh usually Bounce off eachother, and go "ya, and", while prof goes "ya, BUT" and then he provides a counterargument. Its Great to get more viewpoints.
Yes, that's exactly what he says in the begining, he preffers discussion to immediate agreement.
Commander is attacking someone first because they gained one life from a tap land
This is the truest Quote of all time
Marchesa approves of this statement.
Commander is attacking someone first because you evaluate their deck as being more dangerous. Then that player gets in an argument with you because they believe another players deck is stronger. So they attack you in response.
Commander is attacking the turn 1 sol ring player
commander is asking if players want to pay 1 for Rhystic Study
Many Magic: the Gathering players ask the question, "Do you want to pay 1 extra?"
2 if it’s for Smothering Tithe.
No do you pay 2 for that card you just drew
4 for Mystic Remora?
1 for Spere of Resistance?
I've only been playing magic for less than a year, but I have a pretty simple philosophy. "Have fun, hang with friends, drink with them till 5am, and make each other sign or laugh as we play."
I'm always happy when my friends are impressed with the decks I've built, and the fun we have along the way as we play Commander games that last anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours.
Love the Command Zone and Tolarian Community College, fantastic channels that give me ideas, laughs, and a need to buy more play mats....
Can I join your play group? I basically quit Magic because I couldn't find a non-toxic group of gamers to hang with.
@@MaxMckayful bruh where you at? Minnesota? I got a pool of about 4 other dudes
Since EDH is a casual format, it only needs guidelines-not rules. The rules are on the cards. Great episode. Love the healthy debate and collaboration.
I think that it's casual in the meaning that it's not oriented for competitive play, but rules are completely needed so when we say "commander" everyone is in the same page.
New Game Knight video with Professor?? YES PLEASE!!!
HELL YEAH!
Brandon Rog *Heck Yes* ;p
well well well, look what the future has wrought
If there's anything a werewolf hates, it's Avacyn. Oh, right- and her collar. The Collar of Avacyn. The collar sanctified specifically by Avacyn. Avacyn's Collar. That Collar.
"Hey, did you see that moon tonight? Talk about silver."
A swarm of waspcrabs YES THAT COLLAR
Right the poison. The poison for kuzco. Kuzcos poison.
This is so Brian Michel Bendis
Prof and Jimmy felt really real this episode. Not sure if it was their chemistry or the topics, but I loved it.
The Prof had points, Jimmy had big words
Bravo Professor! So well spoken and reasoned! You are a gem, or mox, of the magic community.
How can you not love Prof? This guy is too wholesome.
Leovold is a neat example because the people playing Leovold were the same people calling for his ban, but they didn't stop playing him. Literally people will complain about broken stuff while exploiting it until Word of God comes through to force them to put it down. When you go to an LGS you don't always get to totally control who sits down for a multiplayer match and it's way easier to say "that's banned" than to have everyone go through the social teeth-pulling of telling someone you don't want to play with them. The same way someone will justify playing something oppressive in a casual setting because they technically can is how a banlist facilitates easily establishing play expectations that you won't have to see Paradox Engine at every table.
Gamers of all stripes have only as much self-control as the rules allow.
@@stevenluoma1268 I agree, there's only one person in the playgroup with cyclonic rift, and we kindly asked him not to play that deck except for our hyper competitive game
I still don't see Paradox Engine as a ban worthy card. The card is powerful, yes. The card can go into just about anything, yes. But four of the five colors have answers to it. You don't just win the game by resolving a Paradox Engine.
@@pluralkumquat I'm not so sure. I mean, I play(ed) Paradox Engine in a couple of my decks, and of the games where I got to play it, I won I think all but one of the times it resolved (I was in topdeck mode).
@@Kazz1187 There's only one guy in our playgroup who Jhoira'd out Omniscience into Aminatou's Augury into Sunder / Nev's Disc /Jin-Gitaxias / Decree of Silence and then didn't win the game for 30 more minutes of painstaking nothingness going on.
I took out Jin and Sunder soon after.
I agree that a ban list is necessary for cards that have a track record of consistently warping the format and reducing the variability of gameplay. Personally I don't think cyclonic rift falls into that category. I run exactly one copy of it across all my decks, in my mono blue Talrand deck as a means to offset an out of control board state and as a potential finisher. In the case of just slowing my opponents down, most decks can quickly replay what was bounced. Mono blue lacks the widespread removal that every other color has some form of access to to deal with board wide threats. You have to build a very specific deck to truly break that card, and any playgroup will quickly learn to identify it and address it accordingly
All my decks adhere to these guidelines:
1) Be able to win.
2) Be mostly true to a flavor and a theme.
3) Be good against one or multiple opponents.
5) Be fun to pilot or to play against and interactive.
6) Have multiple paths to victory.
7) Have lots of cool interactions and synergy.
8) Play out differently every game to keep it fun over a long time.
9) Be streamlined and fast to play without excessive upkeep, time-consuming play or overcomplicated boardstates.
10) Integrate the Commanders abilities into the strategy at least a little, but be able to win without ever playing the commander.
"Its a game of commander, I want to crush you after you have had a chance to fight back." God I love prof.
Edit: thanks so much for the likes you buetiful people.
I don't think he's ever won a game of commander on camera, has he? I've never see one, at least.
Exactly how I like to play. It's no fun-and kinda mean- to bully a guy who's mana screwed/flooded, no board state, etc.
#swamplife
Line is spoken at:
12:12
@@DJROCKSTAZ To be honest, when that person is me, I ask to be put out of my misery more often than not (I play in an LGS so don't have to wait long for another game to start, usually). It works both ways, depending on the situation. I'd hate for them to drag it out and "give me a chance" when I'll still never get back to being a legit threat because they've had four or five or more extra turns of board building compared to me.
So excited to see Prof back on the channel!
Hopefully he is on C19 Game Knights and a new Extra Turns!!!!
Oh man. Prof's here. So I wonder if he's been affected by his recent "ruling" from the Commander Code skit?
*infected* ;)
They made him review the philosophy of commander as part of his sentence.
@@grtgtz7771 community service.
Well he proceeded to KO people with a Boros Commander and Grafted Exoskeleton soooo I think not 😂
You know that classic question that gets posed (in multiple variations) that goes "If you could have a beer with anybody, alive or dead, who would it be?"
The Professor would definitely be in the top three on my list of contenders.
I still remember the game where someone had out five copies of Iona (because of Mirror Gallery), and I was playing a colourless deck.
I still remember a game I just had a few days ago. I was piloting my humble Marath precon against Athreos, Ur-Dragon, and I think some Esper? Anyway, it was near the end of the game, and the Athreos player had me dead to rights-or at least, he would have if the Ur-Dragon player across from me suddenly didn't save my ass with a Fog at the last minute! I made sure to repay him by casting Fiery Justice on the Athreos player, burning him for exactly 5 and taking him out of the game. Of course, I got mauled by Atarka and an army of dragons the next turn, but that save alone was worth a mention!
I've had someone use a fog to save me before as well. I don't remember what else happened in that game, however.
@@mrsplays9817 Dannng!
PROFESSOR IN THE COMMAND ZONE PODCAST PROBABLY MEANS THAT HE WILL BE IN THE COMMANDER19 COMMANDER EPISODE :O
Michael Bones the m20 Game Knights has already released.
@@_somerandomguyontheinternet_ i realized that and changed the comment i ment commander 2019
I want the Professor in more Game Knights
@@michaelc.4724 Prof lives in Portland. Jimmy and Josh are based out of LA. If they just needed someone to fill in, he's not exactly convenient.
A good reason to have a ban list - even if playgroups agree easily on what not to use - is that the official rules provide a common ground *outside* a local game group. The official rules ease sitting down with strangers and having a pre-agread basic framework of rules.
Hearing both the professor and Jimmy say that they both took hiatus from magic kinda makes me feel good about where I am in the game. I stopped playing at around the Scourge set and came back at Aether Revolt. This makes me feel like I can be as strong a player as them as long as I meet the social contracts of the game. 😊
I agree with the professor in that commander is a format where you can build a deck to match your personality. Take my Olivia Voldaren vampire tribal deck for example, it might not be a "tier 1" deck, but I really enjoy employing vampire shenanigans.
Or my Naya precon deck. I kinda hate being so mana-reliant and slow early game, but ohhh, MAN, do I love casually dropping a 13/13 with trample on the board and smashing some fool's face with it!
As soon as Arcades was spoiled.... I knew what my first commander (self build) deck I wanted to make. I love playing decks that are more fun than strong
@@mathgeek3_14 Why not a bit of both, in my opinion?
@jim hall I 100% agree! I think (no seriously) my Thrasios + Tymna Flash Hulk combo deck is a great representation of me, as it is powered down (I'm not made of money) but does have the essential parts of the deck: the commanders, flash+hulk, and about 10 different ways to win off of only flashing hulk in. But that's how I love to play magic, I love combo and combo-esque decks and play styles in which you draw lots of cards and do all the things. Also, the ability to have a different sequence for every game when comboing off is more of what I love about the game. I love finding patterns, and have literally made a chart of every possible sequence off of only a hulk death trigger.
@@autumnrogers320 ....HOLY SHOOT. Talk about dedication. And I believe my Marath deck did the same. I love being aggressive, ramping to big creatures, and causing utter destruction with burn spells..
I remember the show, the theme song and I'm 38. Thanks, Prof.
I absolutely love the end of this episode with opening packs from favorite sets. I took a break after Kamigawa and returned for Scars of Mirrodin. Hands down The Scars block will be one of my all time favorites. Phyrexia has so much flavor and the sets were just my level of broken. It is truly not only what got me back into MTG, but what sparked a life long passion for it.
Commander is choosing to buy luxury cardboard rectangles over paying off your college tuition...
Magic historian reference
Guilty
You notice that the blurb on the back of the Arahbo deck box is all about competition and victory and conquest? Not about a considerate, communal, resonant experience?
Yeah, I did, too.
So here's the thing, this podcast has been advocating that players divulge the power levels of their decks before playing for a very long time. This has become something my playgroups and I am very conscious of. We will say at the start of a game "Are we playing big boy decks"? This implies our top tear power leveled decks that can go off turn2. We all know this going in. We don't play those decks against newcomers or players who want a more casual environment. The enjoyment of a "big boy deck" is interaction. Your deck is constructed differently than a battlecruiser deck. You focus more on your win con and stopping others with instant speed interaction. We love games where the stack is full of interactions. We also love getting several games in during he evening vs 1 long 3 hr game full of durdling and board wipes. These 2 playstyles do not mesh well because there is a different set of cards involved. The ban list directly affects the higher tier of magic. It is unfair to restrict their gameplay. The second point I'd like to make is cards cost players money. Good cards cost us more money. Commander is so fun because we have such a large selection of cards to choose from. Bans cause players to waste resources (money) on cards they can't any longer play and that feels even worse than losing a game. I don't feel that commander is a pay to win format because my pods allow proxies. We feel that a good player should not be defined by the size of their wallet, but rather their skill of the game. The majority of us eventually buy the cards and more often than not its the foil version, but it still feels crushing when you spend $20+ on a card just to have to take it out. I invested in a transmute artifact and a power artifact for my Urza build, but since paradox engine was banned the deck is significantly weaker. That is over $300 that now gets to sit on a shelf because the deck isn't solid enough in a highly interactive playgroup. Yes it functions, yes it's strong, but it's not the best it could be or as efficient as it once was against other highly tuned decks. I understand using the social contract I could use the banned card, however, if I play with new people and they go by the actual rules my deck would need to be readjusted. In a deck I don't usually play I may forget until I draw paradox engine, then what? Lastly, as you guys have stated prior, commander is a self-correcting format. If one player plays a powerful board or a commanding lead the other 3 players are making eye contact non verbally saying "we need to stop this". The point is bannings cost players more than the invested price of a card, and with simple communication, a majority of banns can and should be avoided.
This is great! With the recent philosophy update, and format bannings it's good to a see continued positive discussion especially with The Professor. Respect the code.
josh got so salty from the last episode he took some time off
@E Z Maybe next time they will have appropriate powered decks and not annoying cards like midslaver. Mindslaver makes for pretty shit TV
That or the Mindslaver lock still got him! He'll be back in five or six sets of turns...
Josh did do good though
@@OhNoTheFace Why is someone taking a turn more shit than someone else taking a turn? If anything it mixes it up, since most people's turn are just full of the same-old, same-old of a person trying to make value plays and maximise their board. At least with a Mindslaver you've got a different mindset and playstyle behind the turn being played that isn't just the same old "How can I maximise my board/value/etc?" actual repetitive boringness. I'd totally agree a long-term lock is boring but that's not at all what happened in that game: He had only two turns taken by two different people. If anything, extra turns is much more boring to watch than a Mindslaver turn, as it's just rinse repeat of the same first turn a lot of the time. I totally agree it's a shit feelbad for the player having their turn taken, but as TV? It's great and mixes up what happens on a turn when usually, again, it's just predictable board building.
Josh's brain is recovering from being mind slaved over and over again.
The professor made a good point about 3/4ths the way through about having a link to his and the comand zone channels because your two channels got me into the format and kinda helped me learn how to play with game knights
In imitating Josh, a key Josh Lee Kwai phrase was glaringly omitted: “very, very powerful.”
Thanks prof, im 37! Used to watch out of this world at grandmas during summer break.
Turn one sol ring to mana vault to mana crypt to thran dynamo
... in a colorless deck
My opponent: Plains, Sol Ring, pass
Me, an intellectual: Island, Sol Ring, Izzet Signet, Mana Crypt, tap out for Dak Fayden, downtick to steal your Sol Ring. Pass.
@@Alextheamazing3429 oof.
People's hate of those two cards are such a great example of confirmation bias on a group-think scale.
You have three cards in hand. What do you cast? What if they remove your bomb? Do you just lose?
The Prof/Jimmy chemistry is awesome! Love this episode. Kinda felt weird taking about philosophy without Josh but I totally get it and the professor was the best choice to take his place on this conversation. Great stuff guys, can't wait to see you in TCC
The philosophy of Commander is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women.
The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.
@@alfredosaint-jean9660 I like this
Between the time when the oceans drank Legacy and the rise of the sons of Arena, there was an age undreamed of...
@NeuroticLobster That's the philosophy of Conan.
This was probably one of my favorite episodes. I love discussing ethics and philosophy. I find the social contract absolutely fascinating and it’s a big part of why I love edh. Thank for this Commandzone and Prof.
Damnit Prof, I remember that show.
And yeah, over 35 :(
7:52 I haven’t had a way to express the feeling I get when the line is crossed within a conversation until now. Thank you prof! Wise words are not heard enough in this day and age.
The discussion of Leovold elfball is similar to what i see when i play my cycling Zur deck.
I plan on building a Zur deck as well but not that prison-only-I-am-allowed-to-play stuff but more of a bogle and enchantment creature style. Yes he will cheat me in cheap stuff from my library but he won't lock anyone out while doing so.
That's just unfun and also my playgroup would make it archenemy then for a couple of rounds :D (and they would be right tbh)
@Jojoforpres edgar is weak outside of 1v1
@@GamerdevilPro I'm making a zur petitioners deck. try that :D
Prof mentioned that part of the banning of Paradox Engine was because it (paraphrasing) went in just about every deck. But I feel like outside of a couple decks (which included mine, but that deck is easily a 9-10 anyway) I never saw it played. While I am a little salty that I can’t play my sweet pack foil, I do feel like this was a “boogeyman ban.”
As much I'm not sad about its ban, I think it got a worse reputation than it really was warranted. I mean, it does broken stuff, but you need the other broken stuff that didn't get ban to make it broken.
Dario Chung the biggest factor was that without a way to draw more cards, all this was doing was helping you to play out more of your hand, provided you had sufficient artifact mana and spells to chain together
Please do a game nights where you do something similar to this pack opening, open your personal favorite packs (or just pick a Legendary out if its easier-not having to worry about pulling a legendary) and build the deck around it
This is a wonderful episode. I enjoyed the Professor and thought both of y'all added good conversation about the commander social contract. To see both Professor and Jimmy get to go back to the times when they were starting (or restarting) their Magic journeys was fantastic. Professor saying, "Yeah, yeah, nice pull but no gum" was hilarious.
Holy crap I didn’t know Prof was in the Portland area! Dude, hit me up let me buy you a drink!
Really liking Prof the more I see him, he always brings so many good discussion points to a conversation it's great!
Commander's Quarter in game knights, when? Lets see you guys build on a 25$ budget against him and a nonbudget one too!
Or we could see what Mitch could do with a limitless budget deck. I think he could easily win by turn 3
Much love guys. I was a little worried getting into commander just over a year ago but I have never felt more at home playing a card game then when I play this format. I highly respect the work that the Commander committee do and wouldn't argue against their bans much.
Point of order: Paradox Engine doesn't go into every deck. Just look at the top-tier metagame. Most of the best decks don't even run it. Sure, it features in Paradox Scepter Thrasios, but it isn't in a lot of decks that a casual observer might expect to see it in. Teferi, for instance, runs a ton of mana rocks but no Engine. And then there are Hulk decks, Consultation decks, and more that don't run it.
Then we move down to lower tiers. My Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck runs it, but my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind never wanted it. Mizzix doesn't want it.
The ubiquity of Paradox Engine is, quite frankly, overblown.
Yes and most casual play groups (Have encountered five already) already agree that paradox engine in a casual deck takes too much effort to run and play and don't bother even putting it in their deck as using dice to keep track of mana is not really entertaining game play. Most cEDH players who ran the engine pretty much could just add up in their heads how much mana they produce and stuck to a low cmc makeup to ensure in thrasios the entire deck could be drawn. That requires incredibly focused deck building which casuals do not wish to do as they enjoy the random nature of a less competitive scene which is totally fine as commander players should play whatever they and their playgroup find fun.
Out the 15 decks I own I played in 2 decks. My sliver deck to go infinite and win the game on the spot, and my Feather's deck so I always had mana to play my cards on my opponents turn and so I could play all my spells I needed to. Sliver could abuse because mana slivers and I had to put in enough mana rocks in my father's deck to make it worth it.
This episode was extraordinary. Such a hard topic to discuss. Can tell Jimmy really wanted to do a complex topic justice and researched. And both he and Prof have a level of introspection and self-understanding that's not easy to accomplish. Also wanted to say, I'm much more of a Jimmy than a Prof when it comes to play goals. I want everyone to be able to have a good time and laugh. Am not personally a fan of super competitive play, mostly because it tends to bring out the meanest in people and I hate being around that.
Prof, I'm not sure there's such a basic contradiction here regarding the end of the philosophy statement, because of the emphasis on "play group." There can be a huge difference between playing Commander with a familiar, established play group with friends on the one hand, who are better able to play around with the rules through mutual agreement, and playing with others for the first time at an LGS or a MagicFest event. If you are playing with strangers, especially if it's a sanctioned event, it can be a lot harder to assert your preferences that might conflict with the other players. That's the best function that the rules provide, so that any player's expectations won't be radically violated when attempting to make new friends around the table. It is far easier to relax or ignore rules that are in place than it is to impose restrictions that otherwise don't exist. The rules form the baseline for the adaptable social contract.
We have Tuesday Commander at my LGS and since it is a WoTC sanctioned event with a pack awarded to the last one standing we all have to play by the rules on the first game. After that the rules go out the window and then it varies by playgroups. A nice little house rule we have in one of these pods is that if you aren't drawing lands or missing a color and you aren't playing magic, a lot of the times the table will say 'just go grab a land because we want you to play'. I have also started encouraging Rule 0 discussions for deck power levels which has started a good experience overall!
... I might need to try and get into Commander. A whole format based around fun and self-expression where you don't run into decks that just say "You don't get to play magic today"? Yes please.
You should. you get to build wacky fun big decks
As someone who has no friends that play Commander, it is super beneficial to have a banlist to build my decks off of, so that when I do travel to foreign shops, I know I can play decently well. As for this particular philosophy review, I do believe they were decently justified and I liked the explanations, although I feel that it will all be for naught if that philosophy is 100% maintained.
I remember the show, but I'm not over 35! Edit: For my german comrades: It was called "Mein Vater ist ein Außerirdischer" (My dad is an extraterrestial) here in germany
The story time segment honestly encapsulates why I love MTG so much! There is so much joy in the smallest of things like a particular block, set, or piece of artwork. Keep up these great guest collaborations!
I totally remember that show, but I am only 34, so I remember it so vaguely I wasn't really sure if it was real until just now.
Always always love this stuff from you guys and love having other minds come in and give opinions
I just want to have fun. Magic has definitely gotten me through some tough times and I could care less about winning as long as I have fun and play with some friends.
13:50 thats the key point that has to be remembered: You want to crush your 'Friends', its not you trying to crush your enemy like at a GP for example. Friends is the key term there.
You guys are wrong about paradox engine. It just does not just fit in any deck. It requires numerous cards on the field for it to do anything, it requires cards that can use the engine to gain real value. It would be like putting a jet engine inside a small car.
Also like to add, that bans need to be consistent.
The problem with Paradox Engine is more that every deck it goes in, it's broken in. You can't just run a Paradox Engine for value, it almost always leads to you taking huge explosive turns and going off in some way.
I remember building a simple simic ramp deck once, putting in Paradox Engine because I thought "huh, this will be good with draw spells". It literally enabled me to play storm without my deck being specifically built for that.
@@Tacklepig the same thing can be said for many other cards, which is why I said they should be consistent.
Look at Tooth and Nail, Rise of the Dark Realms, and many other cards. All these cards are win conditions as is Paradox Engine in the right deck. If you ban one you need to ban all or ban none. That is all I am saying.
I am OK with the ban if they are consistent, but they aren't. So all they did was devalue my card in the process.
I could listen to a podcast like this every day
Jimmy's hair is on a whole new level of disheveled
Going bald fast. The only way to hide the receding hairline is chaos ;)
Volkbrecht Eh I’m definitely not balding, but I do have a big forehead.
In a cute kind of way tho.
@@commandcast Exactly what someone balding would say ;)
i absolutely love the perspective you both offer on this. It is great to listen to a Magic conversation that encompasses Thomas Hobbes, etc. - the game is deserving of high-level conversation like this.
people seems to forget that commander is a multiplayer, singleton format. if someone cast iona or paradox engine and 3 other players let it stick or did nothing to response, then its a deck building issues. also @jimmy PE doesnt make 40 mins turn, PE ends game. the ban-list like u said doesnt make sense because of xyz example of cards in same power level that is banned or unbanned. also when they banned a card thats in the format for a long time then people do lose lots of money.
I always explain to people that they need more removal and I have a large stock commons and uncommons of great removal pieces for all permanent types which I just give away to make sure they can mod their deck to deal with problem cards. Very quickly they optimise their decks and these problem situations do not arise after that. A big part of interaction in any mtg game is removal and the stack. Usually most of the newer players quickly figure out the importance of removal and get their own after that.
If you are curious I keep stock of a lot of swords to plowshares, generous gifts, naturalize, acidic slimes, by force, pyroclasms, doom blades, massacures, counter spells and pongifies. Are the ones I currently have a decent stock of ten each just encase anybody comes in not understanding much about the importance of removal. It ussually is a good learning experience for them and I get to help form more fun and interactive games in the casual playgroup I am part of. :) I also play cEDH and have a blast but of course does not against casual players with a cEDH deck as I call that being a dick that is trying to get people to quit on EDH by sucking out their fun.
Money should not be a factor. Losing 30$ for a card you've played for a long time is not that big of a deal. If you bought 5 PE for "some reasons", thats on you and you deservers every lost that you got.
ecos889 My favorite common removal- Scour from Existance. Colorless so it got around Iona, and "target permanent", so it works on every permanent I don't want to see. Gaias cradle/Coffers? Bye. Iona? Bye. Paradox Engine? Bye.
@@MrMarclax holy shit u r a moron, and clueless. U do realize there r decks built around PE cost around 3k, how bout those who bought masterpeices. U telling me its their fault a bunch of people cant handle a single card. U r whats wrong and ruining this format. Also ur lack of emphaty bcoz ur not affected is disgusting. I bought mine for 10 dollars. But i think of others unlike u dickwad.
@@rhozpogi 100% my guy. We should mail Cranky ol' Sheldon a naturalize every week for a year.
16:00 I just love the mechanics of Thrasios and Tymna and feel represented in playing Hulkweaver
LGS tend to go by the ban list and not use house rules because it discourages players from returning if they have a deck that is unplayable/sunk a lot of money into something they love and can't use. If the committee truly feels that Commander is a fun oriented format and people should house rule their own local games, they should do MORE balance bans and encourage people to unban what they feel is fine. Or the opposite, and don't run a specific ban list.
MTGO and Duel Commander have no issues using statistics to run their bans, the commander committee shouldn't have a problem using them either.
RC, though, don't really have statistics beside their own playgroups which can be of whatever powerlevel with casual or competitive oriented players' mindsets. It's all way too subjective.
Thanks for making me feel old Professor. I remember that show and flashed back when you started singing.
Didn't Professor say he didn't care if he lost every single game of Commander before lol
Klorgbane He doesn't derive his happiness from winning. Doesn't mean he has no desire to win. Everyone playing should be trying to win but be fine if they lose.
Even if you dont agree with everything they say, no denying they give people a step by step template for the format. Much appreciated and imo a part of edh success. Keep up the good work!
Eventual exorcism
Sorcery
Suspend 1 -(W)
Destroy target spirit or enchantment
“Eh we’ll get to it eventually”
-some priest
I remember really getting into magic during the 2nd ravnica block. I fell in love with the boros cards with all the awesome lore. All the symmetry was so beautiful; 5 colors, 10 pairings. I fondly remember religiously reading all the flavor text and analyzing the art trying to discern the story and lore. What a wonderfully designed block
I love the professor in EVERYTHING he does😂😂😂👏👌
Hi. Ill just say it. Im practically brand new to MTG. Only played for about a month. I originally wanted to collect for the value and the gorgeous artwork, but then started playing Arena and now MTG has its claws deep in me. I discovered your channel through a few guys at my LGS and i love your podcasts.
I would unban about 50% of the banlist. I generally don't think it's productive to ban effects that "can" be broken. Most good cards "can" be broken.
That being said, I think the state of the game is very good, and the ban list as it is is quite functional. I don't like seeing one card unbanned and two cards banned.
Every card, no matter how useless it may seem, can become broken in time. Take a 1 drop 1/1. Useless in commander, right? What if they released a card that lets you cast 1 drop creatures from your deck. That by itself wouldn't break anything, but then there are tons of enchantments that buff creatures you control, copy creatures you control until end of turn, and a recent card that deals one damage to your opponent if you attack them with a 1 power creature, even if they block it. Now you may say that the hypothetical card that lets you play from the deck is the broken card, but it only lets you cast 1 drops, which are quite weak in themselves. It isn't that a card in itself is broken most of the time, but that if someone went out of their way to make a deck around that 1 card that it may be broken. We really cant keep this mindset of banning what can be broken up, since it both wastes players money and frankly will never work. As long as there are unbanned cards, someone will abuse them. It is up to the players to agree to say when we abuse cards and to make sure we don't ruin pods so we can play a broken deck we like
The discussion about deals and agreements reminds me of the episode of Game Knights where Cassius made a deal with someone, they ended up being the last two players, Cassius had game on board and could have easily won, but he honored his agreement and passed without attacking. He ended up losing but damn I respected him for it. Not many people would have that much honor to pass up an automatic win
I need an album of the professor singing now
Almost all I know about our beloved format I learned hear it is a great channel for learning and understanding commander. You guys are great!
Props to prof for saying that not all cede players want to pubstlmb everyone they come acroww
Our playgroup has custom commanders based on characters we are writing about and we also discuss among ourselves to try and balance them but mostly we play them for flavor.
I suppose I’ll throw my 2 cents in.
I would have the rules committee emphasize “rule zero” a lot more than they do now, and shift from a “ban list” to more of a “Geneva conventions” styled thing while simultaneously handing off the reins of a “ban list” to the cedh crowd.
The list the committee would produce wouldn’t be broken cards, it would be an expansive list of cards not suitable for public play. You can do whatever you want in your own group or shop, but for casual games between random people who will never play again, maybe don’t play winter orb?
The fundamental issue with having official banlists for EDH is that the experience of playing commander is entirely subjective, and varies from person to person and group to group.
This would seem to suggests that there be NO banlist and playgroups should dictate what they deem "unfun" or "unsuitable" for their games together.
Unfortunately, this becomes more complicated when you include players stopping by their LGS and not knowing the particular playstyles or cards the local commander players accept or reject. What if the group changes their mind regularly about what is acceptable and what isn't? Should I change my deck from week to week or monthly based on potentially heated discussions of what is allowed? These problems apply to any commander-supported events as well.
If the commander advisory board did, in fact, create a Geneva Convention list of "atrocities" not to be done in commander games, it runs the risk of a problematic slippery slope that is evidenced by their contradictory statements made in their "Philosophy of Commander" document.
Final point: EDH Matchups. I don't see this discussed very often, but a huge element to having "fair" games (a sketchy word, I know), is in the understanding of how each deck will match up with the rest. I have a Wort, Boggart Auntie goblin tribal deck. It isn't particularly strong but it is streamlined to do what most goblin decks do best. It also folds almost entirely to Elesh Norn if I don't have an answer (Terminate, Snuff Out, Ultimate Price etc). I can't afford to run 10+ single target removal spells just because Elesh Norn is in my playgroup, and so I must consider this matchup when evaluating what will be fun and/or not fun to play. This is something that is compounded by playing "color hate" cards, some of which are extremely powerful in one situation and useless in another. Should Boil be banned in a playgroup that plays a ton of blue decks? Why is my friend getting so upset that I put Light of Day into my prison deck when he plays mono black zombies? Endless variation, power level, and disparate matchups make these decisions really tough.
Patrick McHugh there’s definitely a lot of nuance to the situation. If I had to, I’d say such a list would have to be more generally focused on cards that are objectively unfavorable for most players outside of strictly cutthroat games. I can hold up stax as my example because while it’s an important cedh archetype, it’s quite hard to justify it casually. As a single card example I think my best pick would be mindslaver.
I really like the point system from Canadian highlander, and I think we could do something similar for commander. Not to limit the cards that are played, but to help identify the power level of decks. If Armageddon is a 3 point card, and time stretch is a two point card then if you have both in your deck you can tell people my deck is a 5 point deck. That way people know what power level to bring against you in a real and meaningful way as opposed to "my deck is optimized" which could mean anything. If you want to bring a 50 point commander deck to the table, that's fine, just be aware that the game is going to be very different if everyone else has a 3 point deck. A system like this would give everyone a basis for threat assessment, as well as a framework to have discussions about power level.
Jimmy: "You can ruin friendships in commander if you're not careful."
Mario Party/Kart: "AM I A JOKE TO YOU?!"
Communication is key, I have a hyper competitive deck I like to show off to people but do not really play that often until I enter a highly competitive pod. Mishra have to play proxies in his deck because the key card which in every other deck is being a dick is kinda of ok and justified as it means I am even more of a dick with the almighty nethervoid. (Justified by it actually synergies with my deck and does a powerful thing)
I see teferi's protection and remember a game where I knocked out a player who used that card by milling him with jace's archivist. That was a great game.
You guys were probably a little too hard on Amaz for Game Knights. NerdGirl should definitely get another shot, but it was his first commander game ever.
And he won in absolutely dominating fashion? I know people who've been playing the format since it was created who couldn't win that powerfully
@@Wildivlax because they are salty carebears who only sees a card's value in isolation, while amaz cleverly built his deck with very good principles.
@@retardo9633 when were they even being hard on Amaz? They didn't talk about him in the video
@@Wildivlax its the retarded casual salty as fuck edh playerbase im referring to. Ironically cedh players are far less salty when they lose LMAO
Really crazy to actually step back and see how much edh has exploded. Like it's weird to remember the times where I had like 40 modern decks and played games that lasted a couple minutes all the time. So cold and boring. In such a short amount of time, the consumers and fans of mtg literally created the dominating format we have now. Really awesome. I hope wizards knows how much we love this game. We literally gave them the most popular way to play in history.
Commander is killing a player because he tutored on turn 4
As soon as the Prof started singing, my first thought was the movie Hudson Hawk, followed by the TV series Out of This World!
3:58
Thank you
I sat down at a edh tournament with 3 cedh decks (mine included) and a kid playing a precon, never been at a tourney before. The cedh guys all looked at eachother and without a word being said, we knew the social contract had to be in place, we played our decks slower, we explained why we did things and why a boardstate is problematic, we didn't bully the precon for not casting a single spell until turn 4. And after we all murdered eachother the precon ended up winning the game. He learned alot, we all had fun. Amazing experience.
Iona I think got banned not because of how many spells she stops (1/5 vs 1/2 with Void Winnower) but because of what can easily happen when she gets played. First, if someone plays her there will probably a deck that can be crippled by it. In my experience the chances of a deck that's monocolored or a deck with all of it's creature removal in one color being at the table is near 100%. So if an Iona resolves it will lock out one player almost guaranteed. But the next part is the problematic part. Why should another player get rid of Iona? Ever? Unless they need the locked out player to do something there's no reason to let them back into the game. Sure there's the social contract and I agree it's more fun if everyone plays, but if everyone made those sorts of decisions a banlist wouldn't be necessary in the first place. Iona is banned (and should be in my opinion) because she creates a situation where a player must help another player completely altruistically.
So iona stops 1 deck instead of 50% of every deck like void winnower? Id rather have winnower banned in that case. Or just neither as they are both fine.
Void Winnower is annoying, Iona is crippling.
Landon Labonte I believe the argument being made is that every player has about equal reason to get rid of a void winnower, so there is a reason for any individual player who can get rid of it to do so because it hurts them. Iona locking out one player doesn’t stop any of the other ones, so there’s no personal reason for a player who is not locked out to ever get rid of her.
There are plenty of reasons to help out another player in commander, the most frequent being neither of you are in the lead and your deck runs a small number of answers so catching up will be difficult without another source of pressure. Is it dangerous? Sure, but whoever’s running Iona probably has a lot more ways to lock you down than vice versa, so busting out your rivals is frequently more appealing than taking advantage of their silence.
Oh my gosh... I would cry if so got Jarad signed by jimmy and Prof. Jarad was my very first focused Edh deck that I still have today. I’ve tuned it and reworked it over the ten years I’ve had it but I still love pulling it out every month or so to show it some love.
I would agree that I want to win but I feel bad if I win too much. I constantly Nerf and buff my decks so that I can win about 1/3rd of the time so that there is some level of challenge to it. It's not fun if I just stomp the table every game
Commander has been a part of my friends and my Magic career since we became a playgroup. Something that we all agree on is that sitting and watching Magic be played iant as fun as playing. The thing is we all play different formats and are all competitive players. Commander serves as a place for us to meet and try out everything. Recently even one of my friends told us he didn't feel that he was contributing to the Commander group as much and wasn't enjoying it as much. So we as a group agreed to help make him a deck that he would enjoy playing and wouldn't break our playgroup. It makes us work together as friends, forces us to think differently about the game and makes us interact with people.
Honestly Commander needs less of a ban list and more of a "weight" or "tier" list. Some people might hate me saying this, but I think Smogon's (Pokemon) structure would do Commander well. If you play Sol Ring, then you're in category A. If you play flash, paradox engine, or power 9 you're in S. A cards can be played in S, but S cards cannot be played in A. You'd also have an easier time communicating to your play group what level your deck is.
Although that's way too much effort for people who look at commander stuff part time.
My only issue with this system is you're gunna have cards that dont fully fit in a tier and then there will be cards that will be better in each tier. So let's say you're play "A Tier" there is going to be cards that are the best cards in A Tier and players using them get advantage. Same reason why theres a meta in pokemon and certain pokemon being used WAY more then others if that makes sense.
And you also get the players who lose to a card and say "well that shouldnt be in this tier" and through moving cards around you will always be pushing cards to higher tiers and thin out the others.
To me it felt like distinguishing standards from house rules. When playing with strangers these are the rules/bans you should expect to be followed unless house rules are agreed to beforehand that change things.
in regards to the whole "turn three win? shuffle up, new game" thing: the feel bad in that is that now you know that player's mentality. they built a deck capable of a turn three win. in all likelihood, they want that turn three win. if not turn three then as soon as possible. they're not in commander for seeing the weird cards and combos others are going to play because commander allows them to. This person is in the game to WIN. that's fine, we're all aiming to win, but when your defense is "you could stop me with a counterspell" you might as well be playing in a tournament. you know, that thing a lot of us are playing commander specifically in replacement of.
you could still shuffle up, new game, but if that person is there, or even worse, not switching decks, you know that things are likely to go the same way because if someone wins that early, half their deck is probably devoted to making sure things like that happen as consistently as possible.
That's when I would ask if they had a different deck. Or were they just lucky to pull off the combo.
They can keep playing if they tone down the level to the rest of the group. That's a big part of it. Find the right group. Talk about power levels and play accordingly. There's many cedh and edh players. Everyone wants to have fun and play.
P.s. my lgs has a Commander league. You win prizes at the end of the month. You gain or lose prizes based on the rules of the lgs. No turn 5 wins. No infinite etc. You get bonus point for theme of the month, playing cards from certain sets that changes on a weekly basis, doing exact dmg, doing xyz thing determined that week. It's a fun way to play
That's fair. Find the right group. The problem at my lgs is that the people who build those decks just don't build decks of a lower power level. It's as if they can't understand why you would.
They've been playing in a competitive environment for so long that they can't seem to understand why you wouldn't put the most powerful things you can afford in every deck.
This is compounded by the fact that I play in a small store in a relatively rural area. I live 45 minutes from my lgs and my next closest options are a good hour and half or so away. The group we have is the group we have. Maybe about 15 people total for edh, with a mix of about 7-8 of them there any given Friday.
We typically get two, maybe three edh games running at a time, but if one of the players I don't want to be stuck in a game with is too close when a game starts.... it's awkward to say "not you.". If we, as a whole ,were great at handling social situations, we probably wouldn't be hanging out at a card shop on Friday night.
It's really more of a minor issue, but it is there. They should know by now that they'll get hated out of a game, but they'll join anyway because if we aren't playing to that level, there's really not much we can do about it. Most of the time we don't just hate them out because that's kind of a d*** move.... and they know that, pretend to not be a threat and a couple will even start getting pissy if you target them for what they insist is "no reason".
And it's made worse by the fact that I know I've made some things that can be considered pretty heinous myself. I can't justifiably complain about some of the things that irk me because I've done them at some point.
Infinite turns? Pulled it off in a Vorel of the Hull Clade deck thanks to a Sage of Hours.
Extremely long turns not resulting in a win? Looking at you, Will and Rowan Kenrith, with your damned Planeswalkers and spells playing spells.
Lockdown of gameplay for everyone but me? 5 color enchantment deck blowing up all lands with the Enchanted Evening/ Opalescence combo
At least in the last case, it was part of winning in the next turn or two, but still.
I'm honestly at a bit of a loss. At this point I just have to live with it, but I can and will get annoyed by things that annoy me. Just have to not hold a grudge and try to get a handle on my own reactions really.
@@fro5235 I hear you man. Sorry to hear about your options. It's really a balancing act but a fun one.
You learn a lot not just about magic but yourself in those situations too.
I think eventually you'll be able to set your foot down. Someone has to right? Maybe have a competitive night and a casual night.
I wouldn't worry about your infinite plays from before. Or the social skills stuff. The past is the past and you'll pick up those skills if you really want to change kinda thing.
I know I did. Was a chubby tub a lard who liked magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, king Fu movies and food lol.
Eventually I decided to hit the gym and talked to ppl. Embarrassing myself more than I succeeded. I learned and got better.
Btw I know I'm just a stranger but if you wanna join my discord channel to talk MTG I can shoot a link. Most of the guys do ygo or league of legends so itll be nice to have another mtg guy
I'm loving it, even regardless of the topic. Such balanced, thorough and respectful discussion, it was a real pleasure to listen to!
I like the rules committee. Having some guidelines is for the best. Many of us dont need laws, like dont kill, dont steal but the rules are for people that would break it. I think it was funny when people on the rules committee spoke at the commander summit and Josh was like, "wow, I can't touch that deep of thought". Kind of like the US constitution, the people that made it were far wiser than us.
Great video! i enjoyed the dialogue between jimmy and prof.
Cards that oppress other's ability to play and have fun? Then why aren't Vorinclex and Void Winnower on the ban list?
You guys are just awsome. Day9 was responsible for finding you guys, but since then I have gotten to know the Commander format and its pretty much because of you guys and gals. So keep it up and thank you for being so neutral and informative!
I don’t know if everyone is hardwired to find the common good Jimmy haha. I think that’s who you are, but I strongly advocate that may not be the case 🤣
How does no one remember swinging on a star from Hudson Hawk? Bruce Willis robbing an art gallery while singing, unforgettable!
I remember. Hudson hawk sure was a movie. What a weird Bruce Willis vehicle that was.