VW ID3 cold weather range test
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- Опубликовано: 16 янв 2021
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Bjørn is true reviewer of EVs. His testing methodology is different than others, it is unique. Thank you for doing this Bjørn! Keep what you doing.
Maybe higher speeds = higher motor and battery temp due to more Power output from battery. But just a good guess.
@@MichaelKire Yes, this was also found out in a power consumption/load test conducted in German ( ruclips.net/video/M-emiylwG7s/видео.html , automatic transcription works; section starts at 3:36 ) ... the faster you drove, the warmer the battery became and the less current was drawn (Peukert effect) and the higher the charging losses.
This makes sense to me, since the motors are generating more heat, the heat pump is able to scavenge more and doesn't need to run the resistive heater as much.
Higher speed means fan from the heatpump that is in the nose of the car have to spin slower or not at all
@@shrobert1987 yes but the one German test was made in autumn and some also in summer so this can't be really the cause?
BTW the ID heatpump is not only for heating but also for cooling if it's hot enough ^^ (Tesla was also announcing to use such heatpumps after ID.3 was initial delivered)
at higher speed there is more energy loss in the motor and battery. so more heat to scavenge.
That sounds very plausible.
Joule effect, I posted a comment about it in the model 3 video, i estimated the internal resistance of the battery to be around a hundred milliohms, based on a difference of 400W of joule effect between pulling power for cruising at 90 and cruising at 120 km/h
1 kW of difference would mean about double the internal resistance, so the german batteries would be much less efficient.
@@guillaumegaudin694 That would only be true if the battery is the only source of heat loss. The motors and the inverters having heat loss as well.
@@frdyn8tr yes but not all the heat is scavenged to the cabin heater
Insane dedication from Bjørn as always! -21, now that's cold, shiiiieeeeeeeett!
We all appreciate your dedication to the cause. 🥶🥶👍
Ok, after doing some calculations with ecalc my conclusion is that the ID.3 is working overtime to keep the battery warm and that's what is increasing consumption even with HVAC off, I’ve simulated Bjorn's route (or a very similar one starting from the same place and going in the same directions)... A large part of the difference between the ID.3 and the Model 3 is all about aerodynamics, but BMS efficiency seems to play a huge role at these temperatures, the consumptions for the Model 3 LR 2021 seem to be spot on for HVAC off, but for the ID.3 they are off unless the BMS is running at maximum power to keep the battery warm and still if falls a little short as Bjorn's consumption are a little higher than they should.
My conclusion is that Tesla has a great BMS while VW has to work on theirs as the car is trying hard to keep the battery warm and that uses a lot of energy… perhaps even more than 3kw (that’s the limit for the BMS with ecalc)… that lines up with ID.3 owner’s experiences, the car is thirsty in short trips during winter as the car tries to warm up the battery… with the added twist that at very low temperatures the car is not able to warm the battery enough so it uses a lot of energy.
So awesome that you conduct plenty of tests on many vehicles.
Hopeful that software developers from respective manufacturers take notes and in the future deliver updates to fix various issues that might be present.
Greetings from Athens, Greece!
Thank you for your tests!
I'm not sure why but I love watching you drive around in the cold 🥶🥶🥶😀
Many thanks Bjorn. You are a star.
Thanks Bjørn for digging the cold for us. Great you've tested this! So far for WLTP stats...
"Let's do it for science"...bjorn, i love you and your Videos 😊 Always funny and informative 👍
Driving and testing the ID3 at -21 degrees (even with the heater off) is only for the bravest. When I watched the similar test for the Model 3 with -16 degrees I thought that was crazy. Now I think it´s a proof of strengh and courage from Bjorn.
The difference in heater consumption is because the heatproduction in the batteries is much higher due to high demands at 120 km/h. The liquid cooling from from the batteries gives this heat back to the heatpump. At 90km/h heat production in the batteries is much lower. It has a logarithmic flow diagram. You can actually see it in the consumption of the car at the different speeds. Hope this is answered your question Bjorn.
Correct. That is also the reason why the charging speed is so much higher (100kW) when speed was high (120 km/h) on the Autobahn right before arriving at charger, compared to 45kW when driving 80 km/h over Landstraße. The battery is just getting too cold.
Other tests seem to indicate climate can't use excess battery heat though
@@krisany3670 what other tests? one with a ID3? these kind of technical details are very much type related. so in general you can't state this.
@@pilotandthecity8527 I know I was referring to björns ID3 tests where it didn't seem like it scavanges heat from the battery but maybe it's indeed using heat loop from the motor, that would kin of make sense although I'm surprised motor would heat that much more at 120
เก่งมากครับพี่ FCพี่เลยครับ ทำช่องไทยและอังกฤษ 🙏🏻
Great video! Real viking (Björn) test💪
New Björn video is the highlight of the day!
Bjorn has become the go to guy for EV facts. If I need to know anything I immediately reference the channel.
Here in Germany its -1.0 degrees and its Fu***ing Cold !
Respect..
i really like the UI display, looks very futuristic
I hate it. Looks really boring in person and not smart designed at all. :/
Definitely need more of these videos just to see your face
If I was looking for a new car ID3 would be it, looks great and after bjorns tests seems to perform ok too
I can't blame you for not wanting to do that again, lol. Doing that run with heat on makes sense to see how much less efficient your overall trip will be when it's cold out. But doing this as a benchmark with heat off... I don't know that it's worth the sacrifice of your personal safety to do this! But thank you for making this video regardless, because I am very curious about the MEB-platform cars. I have a feeling my next car will be the VW ID4 (since the ID3 will not be available in the US, at least at first).
Carry on making these great videos, but please don't do them at the expense of your health! Yikes!
Great video as always!
what I used to do in my ICE car is hook up 300W ptc heater to additional car battery (lead acid) which would help slowing down cooling inside cabin when car was turned off and I had to sit inside it for some time.
Very interesting thank you
Your calculations are already considering the distance vs time traveled, so it could be *heat* *losses* in the system.
Assuming 90% system efficiency and the capability to scavenge heat from the system to heat the cabin:
At 90km/h the heat loss would be 1.6kW (202*82*0.1) but at 120km/h the heat loss would be 2.9kW (286*103*0.1), heat transfer won't be 100% efficient (and some of it will be used to maintain battery temp) but would still offset some of the heat required to heat the cabin.
When I was driven ev with Pb batteries I never used a heather.A blanket over the knees,warm shoes,gloves,warm hat and using seatheater was enough.I did that for 20 years. With LI batteries, I installed a heather, 1,5 kw, so for the last 10 years I have not been a viking.
After 1 hour driving without heather you will get used to the cold and the windows will be cleared , because the temp in the car
is the same as outdoors. I remember it was rather difficult to move out of the cardoor.I was rather stiffy.
I'm cold just from looking at the video thumbnail.
AFAIK temp.sensor should be in front bumper middle somewhere down as other VAGs. PSA tend to put sensor on passenger mirror (can be seen a black nibble underside mirror)
Really nice test & thank you for your cold suffering! I am looking forward to more tests (just leave that cold cabin test).
Do you think you will have the chance to test the ix3?
4.44 that pen in the corner activates the rearrangement mode for the menu items. Online-mode can be put on top or on the bottom of the list :).
4:44
Hi Bjorn, great vid as always. The situation where the model 3 and ID3 took less kW on the 120kph, could this be due to the motors generating more heat because they are working harder and this heat being scavenged by the heat pump and used for the cabin? So the HVAC doesn't need to use as much power..
I’m a US subscriber looking at maybe getting an SR Model Y or SR+ Model 3. One video I’d love to see would be a race between the E-Tron and an SR+ Model 3 using the third-party CCS network only.
Thank you!
One idea from me. Keep climate on. Set LO°(lowest possible temp), A/C OFF, Vents 1 (lowest possible). That means it just blows cold air from outside. NO FOGGING and (FAST) no consumption.
Last 9 years all VW have understated the coldness while stationary. Like now in northern finland, i drive around, it is steady -15 but immediatelly i park my Polo, it goes to -13 and back to -15 again when driving. While my Mercedes stays at -15 moving or stationary.
Windscreen is always double glass. It is glass - foil- glass to not schatter in an accident.
Double glass for side is the Option!
If you changed the interior illumination to red, it would feel warmer. 😀 trust me it works.
Cold even for a viking!
Lower speed = lower battery power output = BMS request more power just for warm up and keep warm the battery. At higher speed the additional power requested for traction contributes to the heating of the battery
Crazy test, be careful.
very nice
I think thats due to heat from engine. On mine Mii electric I feel difference when I drive on 120 its warm in cabin, but when there is afterwards 70 zone I start to get cold and need to turn heater more on
I do have same results when driving faster at lower temps consumption between summer and winter driving is less at higher speeds maybe battery is producing more heat so does not need extra energy to heat battery
It would be interesting to do a comparison on Autopilot between VW / Audi / TESLA.
Also how is FSD doing in Norway and are people buying into this?
In Hong Kong, people do not order FSD with the car because the cost will be included in the TAX. So people here buy it later as an add on.
Hi Björn I believe if you drive faster the electrical motor produces more heat so you need less power to heat the car.
Bjørn, EV notify in beta 2.2.1 can work with OBD 2 with ID3. For now only SoC.
You don't need OBD Eleven anymore
When spring commes, you should drive the same trip with the same tires.
Looked like my old Leaf needed about 20-30% more in -10/15C than i +15C, without HVAC. Would be nice to se the results you get.
Doing the cold runs, do you run the fan? I've found the fan on very low speed set to windscreen helps a lot on fog..
They both have heatpump right? Higher speed means more airflow over the radiator, ehm, condecer is it? I believe that could result in a more efficient heatpump..
Maybee when you drive faster the battery heats more, and needs less heat/power from the HVAC.
Tesla uses heat generated in motors (and battery) to heat the cabin. Faster speed = more motor heat > less heater needed.
Motors making more heat at the higher speed could explain lower consumption of Hester?
Tesla's Heat Pump is moving heat from battery and the efficiency increases when battery is warmer. So heat in the battery increases when driving faster so the heat pump efficiency increases.
maybe the more power the drive train takes from the battery, the more heat will be generated in the battery. Similar to high charging power. So you need less energy for heating (cabin) and battery. Could it have that much influence?
The high consumption has to be because the ID3 tries to heat up the battery regularly. For a comfortable winter test you might try the Ioniq 38.3 kWh! I drove 400 km the other day at temperatures minus 9 to minus 11 and thanks to the detailed consumption display calculated: driving 11.85kW, AC 1.34kW, Electronics 0.26kW and battery care 0kW on average. Heater on 21.5 and mostly 80km/h roads. Had to charge 66kWh total. Btw the Synergy petrol at 5:21 must be Toyota approved...
How has the Ioniq held up after a couple of years, especially in winter?
@@veeaa I'm really satisfied with the car. Got a brand new battery last summer on warranty. No complaints.
@@MBBHD Great to hear! Thanks.
Hi, I'm looking forward to seeing a clip with ID4, I'm very interested, I want to buy and I want to know more about it. Thanks
I have a feeling the high speed run (120 ) you do later , the heater has been running for some time and the interior of the car I warm so maybe it pulls less energy . Try reversing the runs maybe you’ll know why it happened .
Maybe the heater consumes less at higher speeds because the motor and batteries are warmer and the heat pump therefore more efficient?
I agree with this idea. It scavenges heat from the motors, battery and inverter delivering more power
The engine is not warmer, but the batteries- they become much warmer at higher demands. They're liquid cooled and the heatpump can easily re-use this heat. That's the reason why the heatpump consumption at higher speed is lower. Compared to the results, you can see tha the heatpump of the ID3 is very efficient at high speed, but less at lower speed compared with the Tesla M3
@@pilotandthecity8527 the motor IS hotter. More power output means more losses in the copper windings, core, mechanical losses...etc
You're right, the engine temperature its higher at higher speed, but minimal compared to ice cars, because there is almost no friction inside the engine. That's why they need no big radiators and engine cooling systems in BEV cars. The big difference is much more heat production in the batteries at higher demands. It's by far the only usable heat source in a BEV. during highspeed charging, and during driving at high speed , but even more, during quick altering speeds in short time, there'll will be a high noticeable heat production in the batteries. That heat is usable to heat the car, by feeding the heatpump with it.
@@pilotandthecity8527 Actually, the engine is ~97% efficient and the 3% loss is usually heat (battery could even be ~98% efficient). BUT if we assume 90% system efficiency, the losses are 1.6kW at 90km/h and 2.9kW at 120km/h.
Sources:
electrek.co/2019/04/05/tesla-model-s-new-electric-motors/
simpliphipower.com/company/news/blog/know-your-battery-specs-nameplate-capacity-10-kwh-vs-usable-capacity-7-kwh/
Could the difference between 90 and 120 be that at 90 more heat of the heat pump needs to go to the battery while at 120 the battery naturally heats up more easily so needs less heat pump warmth?
In future tests - heated seat are permitted, even winter bikers still have the engine heat
When are you testing Ford mustang mach-e? tested it yesterday, but just for half an hour. Good car, but skeptical about the boot space because i have a big dog.
Closed aero-shutters at higher speed and therefor less warmth dissolving from the heater-compartement?
The heatpump uses the Airflow through the climate radiator to warm up the climate-liquid. Driving 120 instead of 90 gives you more airflow through the radiator and warms up the climate-liquid more and less electric energy is needed to heat up the cabin.
This is not how the heatpump in an ev is working. Its becoming more heat production in the batteries at high speed
@@pilotandthecity8527 The heatpump in the ID3 is using R744 climate-liquid. Just as every other heatpump it works with evaporation and the energy of the airflow. Basically you are also right, it could use the heat of the battery, but it has been tested that in these conditions, the EV will more likely use energy to keep the battery warm. If you dont believe me, believe VW: www.volkswagen.de/de/elektrofahrzeuge/id-technologie/waermepumpe.html
So it looks like at 120 km/h the heatpump gets more heat from the motor.
Also the ID3 won't ever use heat from the battery if this is below or close to 13°C.
My resistive heater in my MG5 pulls 7 to 8 KWh when heating up!
kW or kWh?
Hello Bjørn,
are you shure the now driven ID.3 has really a heatpump? I never heard it work. In Model 3 steering-wheel and gas-pedal are vibrating during heatpump working. But also in ID.3 you will hear it work.
Best Regards
This heater off driving reminds me of the first winter I drove a 2014 Nissan LEAF, trying to get the max range... Gloves and beanie behind the wheel... EV's have come a long way since then!
Yeah, I actually don't use the heater on short trips even with TM3. And since TM3 does not have heated steering wheel, I have bought heated fleece gloves :-D
Bjorn, I don't think that calculations are wrong. On a higher speed as we see battery and the motor get a bit warmer (more losses), and probably it helps to use that extra heat to heat the cabin, so heater need to use a little bit less energy to support the air temperature.
I don’t know what it is with speedometers. If i drive 105 KmH with my cars meter. Than My navigation on my iphone gives 95 KmH! 10 kilometers slower! But a iphone navigation is also not completely right, right?
When you did the high speed run maybe the heaters consumed less energy because there was more heat in the battery and motor so the heat pump can scavenge more
ID3 doesn't seem to scavenge heat from the battery. Look at earlier videos.
nice test Bjorn. Why didn't you put the ventilation on 1 towards the windshield and turn AC and heat off?
Because I want HVAC completely off.
The travel time is shorter at 120km/h and it provides shorter heating time
How about minimum temp allowed by the car? I believe most VW cars can be set to 16C. This temp is perfectly fine with clothes on.
Driving with everything off is just asking for fogged windows that freeze.
How much would that help on range if you have low battery?
could be higher speed , higher kinetic energy available to use on pumps
1000km challenge of the ID3 in winter ? The ID3 geilo test in winter and the vw ID3 vs audi etron test, shows results that are not inline with the time that the ID3 got in the 1000km challenge performed in summer.
Bjørn I think it would be super interesting to do a battery capacity test in the cold. Especially the cars which keep the battery relatively cool will be quite strongly affected from a reduced battery capacity. Preferably with the same car, charge on the same charger. Please keep in mind that 100% down to 20% will be a different number of kWh in the cold compared to warm.
FYI the Volvo Trucks equipped with a battery monitoring system will show this graphically in the display, when it’s really cold the lowest capacity is blocked shown by ice crystals. Ofcourse this is about starter batteries, which have different characteristics and are not conditioned. But the principle remains. Please take a look at the link below, it’s just 1 page, I’m sure you’ll find it interesting.
stpi.it.volvo.com/STPIFiles/Volvo/FactSheet/BATTAMP,%20BATTIND_Eng_01_307893945.pdf
More info... the system on the first page is optional and consists of a current and voltage meter, integrated in the plus pole of the battery. It measures also the battery temperature directly at the pole. The battery type is programmed in the software, which enables an estimation of SOH and SOC of the battery. When camping the driver is warned to start the battery if necessary, even if the ignition is off. Also the diesel heater uses some current and will drain the battery.
i feel you, bjørn; i once did 200 kph at -20 degree celsius with all windows open in the wind tunnel; that was horrific;
love your tests!
greetings from Vienna,
Raphael
I think when you drive faster you have higher heat loss in motors and batteries but less time to get rid of this Energy. When a car has heat scavaging this heat is taken from there
Heatpump gets leftover heat from motor!
maybe the heathing takes more power per 100km coz it has to heat the car for longer to reach the 100km when driving slower(but still kinda fast)? just a thought.
That's already covered in his formula. The full formula is "(227-202) * 30 * 3600 / (30 / 82 * 3600)" but becomes "(227-202) * 82" after elimination.
Is there a app like you use for the kia and tesla for the e2008 so I can see the details
ObdEleven
brave experiment ,no heater,-19, so what was the diff vs heater on, same track?
11:12 227 vs 202 Wh/km at 90km/h and 296 vs 286 Wh/km at 120km/h.
It might be that when you drive, the water cooler motors will help out. I would think that best way to have heat pump setup is to get the heat from electric motor. And as the electric motors on EVs are very compact I think the motor will run on average in the range of 80-120C.. so Björn that would explain lower consumption of HVAC as it can use losses in the electric motor. On your tests the consumption was about 22kwh so the electric motor ran very low load ... usually I would expect the motor to have around 95% efficiency or perhaps even less depeding on design, so that would mean that there is around 1,1kw losses in motor which needs to pulled away. Best place is naturally heating the cabin. Based on your numbers I would estimate the motor had losses of around 2 - 2,3kw which would be used in cabin heating.
And to note.. I work as R&D engineer and my work is to design electric motors so I have some experience.. ☺️
Many times I hear about that NOKIAN tires, are they such good for winter? I live in Croatia and Nokian is not such famous here, but I see on the many other videos are Nokian are quite popular in Scandinavian countries
It's finnish tire brand which has long history making winter tires. I think they dont have presence in places where winter tires are not that coommon anyway.
At least in Finland Nokian is considered as a kind of premium tyre brand. I think they sell tyres also in central Europe and generally those tyres are par with more famous brands..
@@koomaj Thank you
Have had my Taycan parked for 2 days now in minus -6 on a regular household socket running 8A/1,5kW of charging current. It’s at 97% and the charge current was actually at 0kW since nearing completion. I thought I’d run the climatizing for an hour before heading home from the cabin and saw the charge current jump to 1,4kW, so maybe the Taycans heater draws only 1,4kW which seems low?
I guess that the 1,4 kW charging power consumption you read is limited by the 8A socket, and that the heater pulls a lot more to heat up your car. The extra power needed is pulled from the battery, probably so much that the 97% SOC drops after one hour.
@@mortenleer8189 no I don’t think so, because it can deliver 1,5kW. Initially SOC fell to 95%, but when we left an hour later, SOC was 99% and the car was warm and cozy with windows defrosted.
24,0 kWh/100km going back home the 120kms with 12degrees in the battery at start of the trip.
Does it really not get -20c in norway normally? because in the US midwest/ Canada -30c has happened for weeks to over a month here. Thought norway was fucking frozen guess not. lol
The results at the end for speed vs heating consumption are really interesting - the intuitive thing would be that wind chill would increase with speed.
Maybe the cars use some energy to maintain a certain battery temperature. If you drive faster that means more heat generated in the battery due to internal resistance because of the higher power draw?
I think they pull more power at lower speed with heater off, probably even with heater on, at lower speed in the cold because battery doesn't warm up at lower speed as it does it higher speed. So, thebBMS has to keep the battery at the same heat.
Does it make sense? - I don't really know but this is my take.
Yeah, that's my take after simulating that route in ecalc, if the ID.3 hadn't used any energy to heat the battery it should in theory have used 256Wh/km for the HVAC off run at 120km instead it used more than 281 Wh/km, if the BMS is using 3kW to heat up the battery the consumption increases to 281Wh/km... As for the HVAC on run... the increased consumption comes from the extra heat required for the cabin, but the small increase in consumption makes little sense unless the battery was already warm enough and it didn't need as much power as the HVAC off run... another possibility is that the car was scavenging energy from the battery and the car wasn't trying to warm that battery as much.
Unfortunately since Bjorn didn't have an OBD to check the ID.3's battery and consumption we will never know, at least not from this test.
Drive 150km/ and you need even less for energy but more for tickets ^^
Bjorn, I would assume, that heater power difference (lower power draw at 120kmh) is due to the fact, that heater is drawing that power on average for shorter time, as you are doing the test on the same stretch of road, but covering that distance faster means shorter time means less power used during that time means less average power draw?
You mix kW (power) and kWh (energy). Classic mistake.
Hi Björn!
Could you do some short trip testing with diffrent EV's and how they perform during these shorter trips?
For example a shorter trip to the store (including like 15-20 min parking) and to another store and then back home?
Perhaps a total trip of 40-60km? How will the consumption differ between all the cars? Is it closer to each other during these more normal daily trips with the cars?
Would be really intresting to see the outcome, since I normally never drive much longer than 40-80km a normal day. :)
Nissan LEAF is the first vehicle in the world to employ a heat-pump cabin heater.
And the last vehicle to employ active battery cooling :P
Be careful, Bjorn you crazy viking. Don't catch a cold doing these. Glad you're stopping
So actually, this ID3 is more efficient in this weather than the m3 without heatpump. Even quite much more efficient seeing your calculations- is that right?
I'm looking forward to your first ID4 test! If you test it, can you test the ID4 First edition, but not the First max? I think the first must be slightly more efficient due to lower weight- respect for your AC off test ..bbrrrr
Not really. I have a M3 LR Awd without HP. And meanwhile a Id3 hired with Hp. I travel 12 km a day at -6, my M3 has 21kWh/100km and the id3 almost 32kWh/100km both on the charger. Both are preheated for 15 min. The Id3 is a nice car but not efficient.
Ac is on and at 22 in both cars.
@@sworksm552 32 kWh/100KM is a strange high value compared to what you see here and other unrepentant reviews. It should rather be somewhere near 22-25. A 32 value I've seen nowhere, in any review.
Driving in D is more efficient
significantly more efficient, in stop and go use b mode for higher recuperation
Incorrect.
@@bjornnyland correct
to be fair show us a test in B and in D with same conditions on the Highway (no stop and go, just driving 90 constantly)...then we know
I would move back to Thailand ...
Sorry if I missed it but does the car have the heat pump fitted?
The ID.3 has a heat pump as standard in Norway
It is possible that at faster speeds the blower fan does not need to work as hard for the same amount of airflow into the cabin.
Blower fan takes almost no power. About 100-200 W. The main power draw is in the heater (1000-3000 W).
@@bjornnyland I wonder if tools like OBDeleven or vcds can show you exactly what's drawing the power
yoo what'ss uppp
Remember, you do it for science.....
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