NETLORE EP. 2: Newgrounds & Censorship
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- In this episode we discuss the history of censorship on NEWGROUNDS, and the controversial games created by Ryan "PiGPEN" Lambourn.
HOSTS
bernievidz - / bernievidz
cybershell - / cybershell13
![[𝐋𝐞𝐭'𝐬 𝐑𝐞𝐏𝐥𝐚𝐲] - 𝐔𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝟏 - 𝐓𝐇𝐄 𝐒𝐂𝐔𝐅𝐅 𝐈𝐒 𝐑𝐄𝐀𝐋](/img/1.gif)
Please don't let this podcast die like everything that cyber promises
@vavr stalker faxlore bruh, faxlore
it did sadly
@@JW-ou3txI'm holding out in the hope that Netlore might come back. But it seems doubtful.
It's been 8 months and uh... no luck so far.
lol it died
Why are neither of you guys promoting this? There’s no reason these should be only getting triple digit views. I really like this content and want to see more. Great job
cybershell mentioned having a few more eps recorded, im hoping that once they have a decent amount of episodes up they'll start promoting it more and maybe try to shoot for a schedule
@@gameraxle Cybershell and Schedule are not words you can ever hope to combine
Cubershell put it in his channels. And he hasn't updated that in 5 years.
@@coolguy-qu2su idk what you're talking about. Cybershell had a consistent schedule of never uploading.
took a bit but he promoted the channel.
Hearing Cybershell talk about Sonic to hear him talk about school shootings is quite the tonal whiplash
@lt. huskyy they need to put that word into the English dictionary
And yet totally expected from him.
GOTTA SHOOT FAST
SONIC SEZ
if a Fed-groomed incel comes to your school to blast it up and you're not carrying, that's NO good
stay strapped, kids!
I see you have yet to play Shadow the Hedgehog
When I was an 8th grader I did a project on the site being the first “social media site” (ie sharing and promoting content on a wide scale) of its day. I sent Tom Fulp an email about how he sees the site going forward and he gave me some pretty heartfelt answers. I lost pretty much all of the project but I THINK I still have the email somewhere. Regardless Fulp is that dude and a lot of the internet has him to thank
Kodiak do you Cleveland
Cybershell keeps bringing up the idea that if pigpen didn’t make vtech, then the more tasteful game he made later wouldn’t be taken down. But I’m not sure if it would even had been made if he didn’t make vtech because 1) vtech showed him how he could use games as a way of eliciting strong reactions, even if he didn’t have much to say at the time and 2) he says in the credits of the later project that it was because vtech was a hit, people asked him to make games based on other shootings, which exposed him to how prevalent the problem was even as someone who “doesn’t pay attention to the news”. I think this is all important to consider.
38:41
Very good point. I wish the Sandy Hook game was possible without the existence of VTech, but I feel like it very much depends on it.
Nobody benefitted from the Tumblr Purge more than Newgrounds.
Also, really weird coincidence that both the NY Senator who called out PiGPEN and the perpetrator of the Sandy Hook Massacre shared a last name.
I hope the CIA plants cp onto my phone and then hacks into all of my family and friends messenger to accuse me. I hope that happens to hundreds of thousands.
@@TheSutanianYou have a Cirno avatar, so you probably don't need the CIA to plant it for you.
Im super excited for the Ken Penders episode!
Well it isn’t as bad as waiting for Cybershell to upload.
super glad cyber brought up this podcast in his latest stream. very unique and interesting topics so far, and amazing artwork
Just as a point with Tom Fulp speaking out about not censoring the game, 2007 was a much different time than how things are now, people back then didn't think standing up against censorship would have them cut off access to things such as payment processors and those things didn't really happen back then (as shown by Newgrounds not facing any issues from this). It was a time where people thought if someone wanted to pay them money that was all they needed.
Honestly, more and more, we're seeing that people need to set that stuff up themselves.
@@LordTyph Yup, just a show of how much tyranny is taking over. Someone finds you offensive? Suddenly you can't use normal methods of money transfer anymore.
still hypocritical and I hope he did mention how it was hypocritical but not left with much choice.
@@LordTyph Look how that worked out for Null, dude. I wish it was that easy but more and more it feels like the whole world is against individualists.
@@ErrantPathfinder when did I say it would be easy?
Since when did Chicago & New York have the "some of the looseset gun laws"?
Wanting to make a statement isn't a bad thing. Wanting to make a statement, but being factually wrong IS a bad thing.
You guys really gotta start promoting this more. You two are pretty damn entertaining and provide some interesting insight as an internet boomer and zoomer duo. Good shit, keep it up
edit: fuck you Collin
great episode!! I enjoy how you guys take the extra effort to put stuff on screen, play audio for us etc. a lot of podcasts tend to not put in the work
Absolutely love you guys dynamic and the way you talk about, well, Netlore, with such neutrality, respect and intricacy, especially for a podcasting format. Hope to see this return one day, really glad I've stumbled upon this, big fan of both of y'all.
You got me to think a lot about art with this episode. It’s always thought of based on the impact it makes on the consumer. “This movie broke me” this, “this song changed my life” that. But we hardly ever think about how art affects the artist. How do they change after they release their pieces? Do their lives get better or worse? I may never want to play either game as long as I live, but the second one is very clearly an art piece, and it only seemed to be the nail in the coffin for the creator’s reputation as a crude opportunist. It didn’t have to be that way, but I hope the history of these games is recognised and perserved, and that the creator has continued to keep a more sensitive angle when confronting subject matter this dark. Eagerly looking forward to more Netlore, it’s already great!
I love this format of a documentary mixed with commentary. I love both of your individual work, and this collaboration is just as good.
14:44
move over "sonic lore-master," cybershell's new title is "columbine lore-master"
Everyone back then was the same. The internet was much more open and unregulated.
I let the podcast get old first so now I can binge it. Your move
Top tier Cybershell and Bernie interaction 39:28
Newgrounds still feels like myspace to me, very well remembered but comically outdated. It's so weird that it's like relevant again, pretty cool.
But the outdatedness is kinda the fun of it in a way, I have similar feelings about 4chan.
i still think its amazing how newgrounds is one of maybe 2 or 3 sites that has survived the past few decades and is still relevant when sites like YTMND, Ebaums world, etc. have all died. One of the few sites left that i feel really has a community and culture around it
Wow, podcasts are actually good when they are made by internet celebrities that you actually care about! This was very informational and I really enjoyed hearing this recap of events and these opinions.
"Who the fuck doesn't know about this" Normally i would say "Anyone that isn't American" but I'm not and BOY I was such an edgy piece of shit back in the day and I was all over stuff like this back in the day, my English wasn't the best so I didn't interact with people about this but i would lurk and read so much. Nowadays I'm not one to enjoy shit about lolcows/internet drama and the such, but this was quite the good mix of information, nostalgia and cringe, a good listen.
the message at 7:07 reminds me of the tumblr user who ransomed their own online presence, which birthed the iconic screenshot "buy my silence permanently, for $8,000/month i will stop".
Came here via Cybershells channel mentioning the video for ep3. These two others were just as amazing, keep it up!
"Places like Chicago, where gun control is at its weakest..."
Lol. Lmao even.
I could listen to Cybershell talk all day.
it is so wild clicking on a video about newgrounds not expecting anything and hearing abt a school shooting at VT and a game called VTech Rampage where that happens on the VT campus while I’m literally at the VT campus wtf
touche
dont confuse the videos sentiments with the idea that art HAS to have a point to be good
Today's censorship doesn't allow people/artists to learn in the group space, art is equally created by the perceiver. Censorship stops that process in its tracks. Who knows if this artist was ever going to grow to the point of creating THE game that stopped school shootings.
lol
Lol
comedy gold
just in reference to the growing up on a 'meaner internet' comment. I may be wrong but I kind of feel like the internet is meaner now than its ever been before. plus newgrounds wasnt exactly representative of the whole 2000s web era either.
the internet got meaner because everyone is less performing a character and more performing themselves, so everything is personal and important.
old internet was very much dominated by nerd types, and had this kind of implicit escapism to it. people used to call each other slurs and be incredibly edgy but nothing like the culture of doxxing, death threats and general harrassment we have today. before it was all shock value, but it was also easier to deal with because the internet was generally a small part of people's lives.
i really like your comment, i agree with you
A lot more freedom too... Less instant messaging and more foruming. Too bad they removed general.
Really enjoyed this episode, glad cybershell referred over to the podcast y’all do. Hopefully there’s more episodes in the future!
My favorite part was when Cybershell said the words “Columbine lore”
man really had a redemption arc and then got punished for it lol
"The NRA was blaming a flash game for inspiring Adam Lanza" lmao of course they would
This was a great podcast, hope to hear more one day
I don’t understand what Friday night funkin is and had no idea it somehow brought back new grounds. Very strange people suddenly discovering new grounds and getting concerned about the edge. It was new grounds. It’s what it was. Like what
I definitely agree with the end part of it being very clear with the creator's message how it was made to incite people to contact their local gov't officials and was clearly made in a non-spirited way unlike the first one - I think some points I've seen around the internet that I do think hold some weight are 1) what do the original victim survivors or family/friends/loved ones of the victim think (in some cases they can really love and respect a tribute, whether it was made to inspire hope or highlight how tragic and maddening it was, but in other cases, some people just don't want to be reminded or brought up anything about it or have their own or the victims' likeness included or brought up again like trauma) , in this case for the second game, Fulp mentioned that though the victim's families understand where he's coming from, they ultimately didn't sign off on it despite its artistic message, so most feel best to just not continue unless it's fully backed by those it affected the most
And the other point I saw people brought up was 2) even if he was able to create a medium to express his message, was it even meant to be him to create when he's so outside of what happened (as opposed to something being made from someone who was super closely linked to or affected by it expressing how they feel or creating a similar piece) ; people often bring up the "just because you could, doesn't mean you should" thing with it - though I will say as a counterpoint in his creator's message, he did make a good point in seeing how Australia where he now lives is affected by the change in gun control, so he does have perspective from that
In any case, I don't really agree or disagree or want to vouch for any side strongly or anything, I just wanted to bring up these points I saw online at the time and with recent events that I saw as "food for thought" , so maybe that might open up nuanced conversation for later or if anyone else tackles it in the future
Wow Newgrounds.. This site introduced me to flash animation, parodies, violence, p0rn/hentai, weird Newgrounds characters, and other strange flash stuff.
I also remember that Awesome Newgrounds like Smash Bros. game!
OGs remember LOCKS vs. CLOCKS! 🔒🕛
This is so god damn good man I NEED MORE.
It was fascinating to see the personal growth of Pigpen. He really grew up, saw more of the world, matured in his perspective, and that’s kind of refreshing. I appreciate that he turned something he made seemingly spitefully into something that actually has a point to get across. It is a shame that the SanHook project was the one the he was effectively “punished” for.
This podcast vanished just like my father when I was 5 years old
This was such an interesting and enthralling podcast! This channel definitely deserves more subs.
i like how that guy mention's Chicago and new York 2 states that are the hardest to get a gun in and getting a gun is basically like getting a Drivers license test except u can get you drivers license the same day that you pass the test unlike a gun which at least in my state you have to wait 10 day's once you pass a test.
I was gonna say the same. Chicago has some of the strictest and highest amount of gun control. It ain't the answer to these massacres.
Really enjoying these. Wish they were about 20-30 minutes longer, though.
Boy will you enjoy the new one
This stuff is fascinating, keep up the good work fellas.
New grounds was my first introduction to hentai
I can't agree with this vision of "don't censor", the guy was a young adult when he did the V tech one and even if the second one wasn't tastless he doing the first one kinda sealed the fate of this
this topic was definitely interesting, just coming in here years later.
i think removing a game about a real life incident because victims or families of victims want you to is always the right move. that incident follows them for life, and as such their voices and opinions frankly matter more than anyone else's, including mine, yours, or anyone trying to make a thinkpiece on the matter
RIP THE KEN PENDERS EPISODE
Good stuff guys 👍👍👍
I respect that he made the message about gun control. But Chicago has some the strictest laws and we know what happens there. Just bringing it up because he brought it up.
3 main cybershell accounts
YoRick
Netlore
2 accounts more and he can go supershell.
RunningShine (as a stream guest)
This series is so good. Keep it up guys!!
Please upload these to Spotify and Apple Podcasts
Surprised to hear Cybershell jumping into conclusions about the Sandy Hook game, but I still agree with him about how ironic it is that the game made for trolling didn't got removed but the other one from the same person with actual artistic intent and that has a positive message in support of the victims is the one that had to be taken down (and the parents actually understood this, but their wish was to ultimately NG's call), I suppose it's harder to excuse something like that a second time around.
Also, totally agreed with Bernie that how despite of the world moving forwards in terms of what wasn't acceptable once and was margnilized now is visiblised and celebrated, it feels like there are more and more boundaries and restrictions to what people are allowed to say or do if they want to exist in a larger cyber-society, which can only be seen as a step backwards in social communication (not saying that everything should be allowed, just that people shouldn't be lapidated online for what they did in the past despite of how much we disagree with it)
PLEASE, keep making more of these.
Cant wait for the next episode
Great series so far, can't wait for more.
Very interesting that the game that basically amounts to a "mass shooter simulator" wasn't taken down, but the one made artistically and with an anti-gun message was taken down.
This was a well made podcast good work
I wouldn't call the V Tech game evil. Evil games would be like including seizure inducing flashes on purpose to try to hurt people. As it stands now, I don't think it's much worse than a level like No Russian.
More Newgrounds deep dives!
"burning books and censoring art is never never never never okay unless I disagree with it". Its easy to be unaware that these things aren't even in the top 100 of most nasty, mean-spirited, hateful works of art because most were before our time. The mass-murders portrayed also aren't particularly bloody compared to asian mass-stabbings and the like, and frankly its a mercy that perpetrators are distracted by the artificial media-created dangerous image of guns and "high-scores" and the long-standing fear that they'll figure out they can drive trucks through crowds to much greater effect hasn't been widely realized. Perhaps that we now live in a society that does engage so heavily and so frequently in censorship is itself a root cause of these death-of-despair-suicide lashing out mass-murders.
20:19 He's wrong, Chicago is an example of high gun violence despite very strict gun control measures being in place. It just goes to show that gun control is ultimately ineffective at stopping criminals from using them. Recent shooters have specifically targeted areas that have more gun control to avoid getting stopped by regular citizens who carry.
The issue with Chicago is that people just go across the border, where those restrictions aren't in place, then take them into the city and sell them for a markup.
If you had federal gun control then it would be a different story.
As it is, Chicago's gun control is about as effective a preventative measure as dry counties are at preventing drink driving.
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 good thing there isn't anywhere to go across a border to obtain guns and bring them across said border to sell illegally or anything.,.. also for drugs...
"High-score" fucking sent me
"Newgrounds chose not to censor the game"
wow; different times. Nowadays you cant find an entity not willing to censor everything
They did remove the General and Politics forums though.
Love this podcast, please keep it up!
Been a while, when's the next episode???
That game made me want MORE guns to stop bad bad guys
Y'know I at first thought that PiGPEN was the actual shooter, and sort of animated his incident before doing it, with the way you guys worded it and the seriousness of it. Kind of like what the Danny Phantom killer did with alot of pre-released videos and so on.
I still love and visit Newgrounds to this day. They are the last bastion of freedom of creativity with barely restrictions. In a perfect world, Newgrounds would be more popular than RUclips who constantly fucks over there creators while heavily limiting what they can make.
Agreed with you. Newgrounds is honestly better than a lot of sites nowadays.
you guys need to promote this more
there is a lot more potential
i hope you guys make another 👍
all people commenting that they need to be promoting it acting like they dont like this podcast being a cool sweet underground thing only for REAL cybershell and bedheadbernie fans. keep up the great work. this will grow by itself because its awesome. id rather it wasnt "the cyber and bernie podcast" and was instead "the cool internet history podcast that happens to be hosted by 2 people who also have channels podcast" but obviously thats your choice to make. good luck with this i will watch every episode because i have no life. love you xoxoxo
10 months later, it only really grew because Cybershell promoted it, though not releasing any videos in the interim probably didn't help.
More Newgrounds Lore Please !!
Here from the third video, just found ur vids, very interesting and impactful I had no idea!
Im glad this podcast isn't dead
reminds me how me and a friend of mine played on this one colombine map in L4D2, it was weird
A few of the closing words of this video demonstrate how the censorship present on youtube--its ability to demonitize a creator--has pushed creators to be okay with censorship.
It's just practical. The reach is more important than the measage.
But how valuable is a wide reach if the subjects a creator can touch on are so narrow?
Shame this pod didn't work out
"Who didn't know about this incident."
Damn. I really was sleeping on stuff.
I want more!
newgrounds quality control killed me
Let's get another one uploaded boys
I wish Newgrounds would at least leave a backdoor open to let you use real Flash instead of Ruffle if you're on a browser that supports it and has it installed.
Ah dang, I should have watched the 2nd episode sooner - I spent a good chunk trying to find out who did the video art only for it to be said in the first 30 seconds haha - Oh well, cool videos enjoying the content
12:25 stickdeath era internet (SEI)
This dude fr didn’t promote this dawg, WYD CYBERSHELL
I understand people can change but for pigpen to think people would give him the benefit of the doubt and understand his art piece is asking a lot. His speech about contacting the NRA also felt like something he was obligated to do.
"maybe you hate gun control, maybe you hate this guy even more now" LMAO
cybershell not calling bernie a them. dang :(
These have been quite interesting by the way. Stumbled upon them at random yesterday. "Good stuff guys," one may say
Get out
censorship is always bad
in regards to the virginia tech shooting, it's interesting how the feds usually tries to push this incredibly fucked up narrative that "oh victims of bullies tend to become shooters. let's bully them more!" but the virginia tech guy sent his manifesto like "well maybe bullies themselves are the problem" to the media who went :O and cyberbullying kinda got better for a while (except it's gone too far now and you can't have a heated discussion at all, or you get some backlash calling it 'woke') but it's pretty interesting anyway. For example, I'm pretty sure like, virginia tech indirectly inspired cool cat saves the kids. It was just cool to hate bullies for a while which hasn't happened a lot of times in history.
Also everytime I hear about Sandy Hook, I must say, while the immense tragedy of their losses is absolutely heartbreaking and nobody deserves that, they are exploiting their dead children for political gain and I think that is absolutely uncool of them. Just look at how censorship will attack the more tasteful controversal things and leave the most tasteless. the cherry picking affects how we see the world. Like, it seems like it's the that that it has a message that is the problem rather than the tastelessness
About sandy hook, I agree with the exploitation of the dead children being present such as Alex Jones getting sued a billion dollars over opinions he had a decade ago. Makes you think if the parents even cared about their children or just used them for a political and financial pundit.
6:32 i will put any mmo or fifa in that list before outrage bait if you ask me . because those games actually do hurt people .
Isn't pissing people off itself a political message? Afflict the comforted and all that.
I'm not an "all art is political" person btw.
good you shouldn’t be
people who think all art is political are annoying
... chicago had weak gun restrictions? Fascinating.
I guess they want to keep this low key but its gonna get big
isnt australia more dangerous now with knife crime after the guns were banned?
There are 2-3 acid attacks per month in the UK...
@32:25 this is why you have alternative payment processors and alternate web hosting sites now.
Such as?
@@SmashFinale As much as people hate hearing it, crypto currencies. Their decentralized nature does help prevent banks or companies controlling it as everyone as their own bank/wallet that can't be taken away from a certain company. It has potential if it wasn't always being used as some stock or gimmicky scam.
"who has not heard about this?" zoomers and non americans
Great pod you guys, I just can't stand that centrist resolution, I think its flaccid as hell NOT to take a stance on gun control, and I guess censorship falls on free speech which is always imperative, but depends on the web masters' POV and situation *sigh*
I guess it really is a difficult topic
Anyways, hope you guys keep it up, even if I don't agree on centrism, cheers!