+ I forgot to mention something in my video that would prove that Dutch wasn't lying in the end. If Dutch would lie about not being able to save John then why didn't Javier say a thing? He was Arthur's friend and he was there when they tried to save John from the patrol. He couldn't even point a gun at Arthur in the end so I think that he could've tried to reason Bill fro example to go to Arthur's side but he didn't. It's not a 100% proof but it makes you think a bit.
Im sorry for this but in 1899 jack its four years old soo john dont return to camp at 1890 maybe im 1895 and micab wasnt there when john returned just a lot of years later
Dutch no longer cared about the Blackwater Money. His true intention was to kill Micah which is why he told John when John asked what he was doing there.. "Same as you as I suppose".
@Greg's Holy Legs Not really. There's two general theories on Micah: 1. Micah was working for the Pinkertons the entire time given the Blackwater setup and the failed Saint Denis Bank heist. 2. Micah was working for Milton after returning from Guarma. I think Micah could have dropped the hammer at any point in time on Dutch. By Chapter 6, Dutch states that he retrieved their money from Shady Belle, and they almost had enough now to leave. When Dutch confronts Cornwall in Chapter 6, he demands $10k and a ship to get his friends out of there. Micah states - more than once, how they need to get rid of the dead weight, bringing this up in Chapter 4 during the stagecoach robbery and again in Chapter 6. What is his motivation to rat? Wouldn't he try to get the entire gang to swing? Is he ratting just so he can get money (Blackwater money, Shady Belle money in Beaver Hallow, etc.) and have Dutch arrested? I don't think so because he was more than willing to leave during Chapter 6 with the Cornwall mission, and Micah kills Pinkertons as he runs off. I just don't see his motivations. Bill Williamson has more of a reason to betray Dutch than Micah. There's talk in Chapter 5 that he spilled the beans to someone (possibly Pinkerton spy) about the gang's hideout location after they return from Guarma. There's the fact that you can catch him stealing from the camp funds and donation box, and then there's his opening dialogue with Marston in RDR1: "Now I'm in charge! No more Dutch - and no more you!"
My friend this proves even more that micah isn't a rat think about it micah recently helped Dutch get the money from Blackwater and they SUCCEEDED no pinkertons showed up they got the money and got away with it. But when john was in the gang or Abigail or molly there robberies would always be a setup so when all the other members of the gang are gone and theres no one to rat they succeed in getting money this just proves that micah isn't a rat because if he was he would have told the pinkertons that dutch was going back to retrieve the money from Blackwater
I thought that for a while, but I've switched to another theory. Dutch has something to do with Micah's gang breaking (with his grampa, his father and his brother). The only two things we find at Micah's hideout is Dutch's wanted poster, with no picture, so Micah only kept his face AND a newspaper clip of probably his first murder he did at 17 with his father. I don't think Dutch is aware of it, and Micah planned everything he did just to get in the gang and destroy it from the inside. In Strawberry, when he's in jail, it seems he doesn't want to die at all, but he risks his life only to get his guns back, he rarely risks his life like that. What's written on the guns : Vengeance is Hereby Mine. What vengeance...? And when John kills him at the end, he simply shrugs as he dies, suddenly he doesn't care about dying..? He was a snake from the start, Dutch killed his father, and he's only in for revenge. He won, he broke the gang.
@@trustmepalimthatguy3052 Games are like movies, there's no useless detail. Explain the Vengeance is Hereby Mine on his guns...? He even risked his life to get those guns back, not something he does often. Which means it's highly important for him. Vengeance for what...? That's why he dies laughing, he won, he broke their gang.
@@micahbellonline9462 those guns are Micah's only belongings that matter to him, despite being a rather modern pair of revolvers (at the time of the game around 10 years old) they are incredibly worn from heavy use
@@fallout0624 Why the Vengeance is Hereby mine then...? For cuteness...? It doesn't mean it belongs to his father, it's just my theory, maybe he had this graven after someone close to him was killed, who knows. The revolvers are important to him not just because he kills with it, he could always use other revolvers, it's because of what they represent.
I honestly think Micah was just an impulsive wild card, I believe there was no rat because the gang was going downhill anyways and the fact that the Pinkerton's was chasing them only made things worse for the group
Also, why did it take the pinkertons so long to attack Beaver Hollow? If Micah was feeding them information I feel they would’ve made their move much sooner rather than allowing the gang to keep causing damage and chaos and killing army recruits. It could also be for sake of story but tbh Micah being a “rat” just felt like it was thrown in last minute for some reason even tho the story could’ve progressed the same since Micah was already a hated member before his betrayal
@@josephstalin2606 I believe the Pinkertons were doing shady Detective work by feeding false information to members of the group, for example I think they did talk to Molly and asked her incriminating questions leading her to belive she was involved with something that wasn't true or unrelated that's why she confessed to Dutch saying she told them everything which lead to her death. Causing even more tension within the group, they possibly did the same to Arthur when they said Micah was feeding them information. But I do have a theory that John might have been the informant because in the original he was working with Edgar Ross and there was that scene that the Pinkerton found them look directly at John and said "and who might you be" in which John replied with an alias that tells me they've met before and are pretending not to know each other. John was with them during the Blackwater Massacre how could they not know him when they background checked everyone involved so they knew about Javeirs roots in Mexico and So your telling they didn't know about John's affiliation with Dutch?
@@530Issa well , john's not a rat in rdr1. He killed javier , bill and dutch who left him and his wife for dead so he wasnt affiliated with them anymore.
A second rat: It should be highlighted that during the train robbery in Pouring Forth Oil, a huge posse of lawmen show up almost as soon as the robbery begins. John makes a comment to Arthur that someone "must have tipped off the law." Micah does not have to be in camp and can be locked up in Strawberry, so this implies he has absolutely no idea of John's plan - but Abigail does and so do all of the other gang members present. This mission definitely implies there is another rat. Abigail's (and possibly John's) motivations: Blackwater was 100% a setup. Before this, the Pinkertons, bounty hunters, and law were bearing down on the gang. John, since Chapter 2, confronts Dutch with his doubts and his speculation that Dutch had lost it. Watch the camp dialogue between them and you may also infer that Dutch seems a bit uncertain of John - at least of his loyalty. John doubts Dutch and the entire point of running as a gang which appears again in Chapter 3, Chapter 4, and Chapter 6 through camp dialogue and mission dialogue. Abigail and John have the single most important reason to leave the gang and run from their pursuers: Jack. By the time RDR1 rolls around, John is working for the previous Pinkertons to hunt down the remainder of his gang members minus Charles, Sadie, Karen, Pearson, etc. John literally kills the two people who actually did go back and try to save him: Bill and Javier. Whether or not he or Abigail were the rats is questionable - but it's clear John wanted out as early as Chapter 2 in RDR2. Final thoughts: If John and Abigail were ratting to the Pinkertons individually or collectively it comes from the most logical perspective: saving their child and family. I don't have an issue with it as most do - and by RDR1 John is literally hunting his former brothers in arms - by choice or not, he's definitely a turncoat by then.
I highly doubt John was the rat. He wouldn’t snitch on his own job and then continue to gun them down like it’s nothing. Abigail on the other hand is more likely, but at the same time the gang, mostly Dutch, had a tendency to underestimate their enemies and when they try playing them, they make it super obvious. Like Arthur said, they got sloppy and now that they caught all that attention in Blackwater they are always bound to fail since they are being closely watched/hunted so they don’t really need a rat. By the end of chapter 3 they had done enough damage to seal their fate
To be fair Dutch left him to die once, then did it again. Not only that Dutch is a father figure to John. If it were me I'd be pissed too and questioning his choices. In RDR1 John wouldn't be a turncoat they weren't a gang anymore and hadn't been for years. The difference between the rest of them and John is John had a lot more to lose. Even when Jonn was questioning Dutch he was still loyal, went on missions that nearly got him killed more than once. Micha was the newest addition had had the least investment. He is also a very selfish tool who would sell out his mother to save himself.
Even Rockstar shows you he is a rat. When you're up on the mountain in the American Venom mission and walk straight towards the shack, a rat is crossing your way before the cutscene begins. Subtle indication that Micah is the rat.
@@ANNEKE1999 Brother, anything I would tell you would be in this video. So I guess re-watch the video lol I had a VERY hard time understanding the dude, literally turned on the Captions lmao. Yea man I 100% believe John was the rat. It all makes since you me but this isn’t officially from Rockstar so you are totally okay to think Micah is the rat.
Crazy thing is I always liked Micah at the start of the game. Yeah he was a asshole but I liked his devil may care attitude and his love for the action. He was even one of the best gunslingers in the gang. But at the end you obviously dislike him. But this video gives a new perspective on the situation. Maybe Milton just said Micah bell to divide the gang but who knows.
I always felt the same way. If there was an option to join him and Dutch against John I’d prob do it in a dishonour play through. Glad I ain’t the only one
@ProGamer because Milton is not stupid and if it was true what he said than he would never give that kind of information to someone from the gang, especially not to Arthur but he would know that Arthur isn't the smartest and that information was passed down from John to the Pinkertons if indeed he was the rat and told them everything they needed to know instead of Micah who wouldn't have enough information on them to be the rat
@Daniel Robert that's the thing he could have killed Arthur before or after he said something to him but he didn't even when he had his gun pointed as his head but he didn't shoot, the reason could be that he didn't tell Arthur the truth
Your theory makes sense except one thing: In the final mission, pinkertons are shooting at John. And somehow, when Arthur is shooting at them and Micah arrives, they do not shoot at Micah. And somehow, dutch is able to just go away after Arthur is death. Also Dutch's side was not pursuited, we know that because there was so much pinkertons chasing Arthur and John while Dutch could also chase them and shoot them.
Excuse me when I tell you that you did not focus on conversations in this task, Edgar Ross goes and says where is Dutch ?brought him and kill him, kill them all, and if you use the free camera you find Micah Bell killing a lot of the Pinkerton in front of them, and he shouting on Dutch to escape, and you will see Dutch and Micah and the rest are hiding under a hill And when you open the map, you will not find a red mark at Micah, and when you choose to return for the money here a yellow spot appears on the map, indicating that Micah and Arthur returned from the same way and their goal is the same as money, Arthur returned to take the money, but Micah returned by order of Dutch, so they met at the cave The dialogue took place, and Micah is angry at Arthur for having separated from Dutch willingly and wants money, so he sees him as a traitor. Arthur sees Micah a traitor because of the saying of the manipulative fool Milton (listen to his conversations at the lake with Arthur and listen to his friends in Shady Bell what they say about him) and the only survivor three times is abigail ,She was not sudden reaction to the mention of the name Micah Bell ,she was ready to betray before (where was Jack when Milton came to Lakay) Micah bell went out himself and killing and slaughtering in the pinkerton, abigail steal Dutch's key without his knowledge and without knowledge of Miss Susan.Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..On the mountain and in the cave he went and left Arthur to grapple with death alone..dutch bear a black heart that is not merciful and is covered with his pride and greatness and honey tongue.Blind man Cassidy explained the traitor by the emergence of his truth as the devil making sacrifice in fields surrounded by fire and flesh, and this is the oil field mission of Cornwall in the mission of my last son.
@@soonmoon2288 You said a lot of things that make sense, but also a lot of things that I do not understand, mainly because you were talking only about the low honor ending where Arthur goes for the money, which is ending I've never experienced.
@@user-yo4bo5ww2y Also, in the high honor on the mountain, you will find that they all followed the same path and the same pattern, and there are loud humming sounds that you will hear at the hiding place of dutch in the mountain.
Micah is an obvious untrustworthy villain from the beginning. It's too obvious. It's like if he actually was the traitor than one would have to be blind and completely gullible to not see that he is the rat. He just seems like the perfect patsy.
@@poseidon3492 That would be such a mind fuck. I mean Micah is definitely evil and a negative influence for the gang but him not being the rat would be a real plot twist.
My theory is that there might not be even a rat in the gang in the first place and pinkertons were making shit up just to confuse the gang and disassemble them so they could fight each other in order to weaken the gang and Pinkertons probably expected or are smart enough to locate gangs heist plans.
There is a fairly intriguing case for Abigail being the pre-Guarma rat, but it falls apart at some key places. Spoilers ahead for pretty much the whole game. The broad strokes of the theory are as follows: John left the gang for over a year when Jack was born. Then he came back. Now that he is back and has started taking a role in Jack's life as his father, Abigail wants John to leave the outlaw life. To this end she has sold out the rest of the gang during the ferry job in exchange for special consideration for John. If Dutch is in jail, John would be free to leave the gang forever and settle down, say, on a farm west of Blackwater or something. Points in favor: John somehow slipped out of the ferry job even though he was surrounded at one point. He even says that he doesn't know how he got out of there without being captured. Several other members of the gang weren't so lucky, either getting killed or captured. Once the gang slips away from blackwater Abigail insists Arthur spend some time with Jack, which is what leads to Agent Milton first approaching Arthur by the the river bank with an offer to sell out Dutch. This offer, and the fact that the Pinkertons know where they are is part of what pushes the Gang to run further east. Things get kicked up a notch by Chapter 3 when Jack getting kidnapped, which causes Abigail to only focus on getting her son back. But once he is returned in Chapter 4, she tips off the pinkertons to the St Dennis bank job. While Hosea is caught during the distraction phase of the plan, Abigail 'slipped away' even though she was with him. And then during the ambush John is captured alive, despite the law being willing to gun down the rest of the gang on sight. This is because of Abigail once again making a deal to keep John safe. Presumably during the Guarma episode Abigail and Jack are stuck with the gang, as Sadie is keeping everyone together, and unable to go collect John from the feds as Dutch and the rest of the heavy hitters of the gang are still in the wind, so they feds would not see the bargain as complete. Now, once the gang does get all back together After Chapter 5, the feds turn around and machine gun up the whole hideout, putting Jack and Abigail at risk (along with the rest of the gang) which just might be the nail in the coffin for the Abigail/feds alliance. In any case, at this point the Feds would start leaning on Micah as the rat instead of Abigail. Although, there might be one last meeting when she tells them off. This would explain how she somehow knows that "there's talk of hanging John!" It would be completely in character for Agent Milton to tell her that John was on his way to the gallows if she suddenly decided to stop helping the Pinkertons after they fired a gatling gun at Jack. Finally, Abigail kills Agent Milton before he can spill the beans about who the rat was before Guarma.
That doesn't really make sense. If Abigail was the rat, this would put John and Jack in danger, unless she told them about it. If she did tell them, then John would be angry because remember, John was loyal and Abigail was a wh.ore. Also, Jack is a kid, so he would've ratted Abigail.
Honestly parts of it and the motivations make a lot of sense, but it can’t be true for one simple reason. When Arthur is trying to rescue Abigail, Milton absolutely would’ve told him that Abigail was responsible for the gang’s downfall. It wouldn’t make sense for him to not mention this and instead tell him that Micah ratted after guarma (which would be pretty inconsequential in comparison)
Adding onto one of many doubts to this theory; Abigail loved Hosea. She had a very, very close relationship with him. Almost like a father/grand father sort of relationship. I doubt she would be so willing to leave him to die - I suspect Hosea likely sacrificed himself so she could escape. Because, remember, Hosea was terminally ill, and knew he didn’t have much longer left. Therefore it would make sense for him to want Abigail to live on, raise Jack, and marry John properly. Have a better life than he did, similar to how Arthur felt for John towards the end of the game.
I still think that micah is the traitor because the game is just built that way but your theorie makes sense, and if its true it might become one of the biggest plot twists ever
@@ZeloraYT yeah Dutch wanted him to be in his gang because Micah saved his life in a bar fight but Dutch was also trying to sell gold and throughout the story all Micah seems to care about is the blackwater money he's always pestering Dutch about it and always complaining that Dutch and hoses are the only ones that know where it is so you know
This video is almost perfect. With a heavy emphasis on "Almost". You nearly convinced me, but there was this one factor you overlooked. Why would Milton tell Arthur that Micha was the rat when Milton was sure he had Arthur in his paws? It wasn't like he about to die and in order to deliver the final blow and dissemble the gang from the inside he said that it was Micha, to plant the seed of confusion and chaos. He had Arthur at literal gunpoint, unless he was sure that Arthur was going to escape, which I don't think is likely considering he was second away from shooting him in the head. I don't know how much he loved his job, but I'm sure as shit he wasn't ready to die to bring in a gang already in shambles. It makes no sense for him to give this information to Arthur when he was sure Arthur wasn't going away from his grasp.
That's a good point. I must've forgotten to say that but the message was not for Arthur but for Abigail. You see the deal was to get John and his family out which includes Abigail. Milton simply told that so that Abigail would NEVER even think about John having business with the law.
@@poseidon3492 ...Problem with that would be that, chances are, she would've known regardless. If John is to get his family out with the help of Pinkertons, Pinkertons... Would've get them, for him. She would've learned, even if afterwards. To Miltons knowledge, she was tied up. He wouldn't know she was about to shoot him. Arthur was already sickly/loosing battle, and Sadie was tied up as well, so she wouldn't have done jack shit. Unless John made it specific that she and Jack weren't meant to know. But that is a heavy stretch, not sure if there would be evidences on that.
milton lied to plant doubt in arthurs mind so he would go back to camp and confront micah(who milton knew arthur hated) micah isnt a rat i cant believe that people trust what milton of all people says
There were other people in the room to hear what he said and sow seeds of doubt. Also with Arthur arriving unexpectedly maybe he considered they might escape yet again
Every suspect from the gang in RDR 2 timeline has their own pros and cons, and sometimes, it makes everything makes no sense. But this thing is why this story in RDR series is so great
Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..On the mountain and in the cave he went and left Arthur to grapple with death alone..dutch bear a black heart that is not merciful and is covered with his pride and greatness and honey tongue.Blind man Cassidy explained the traitor by the emergence of his truth as the devil making sacrifice in fields surrounded by fire and flesh, and this is the oil field mission of Cornwall in the mission of my last son.
Makes some sense... and I said some because I don't think Dutch didn't care about Hosia. Hosia was like a brother to him and a counsler as well, before any plan Dutch talked to Hosia. And also, he felt very sad when Hosia died in Sain Denis.
I dont think there was a rat(before gwarma) I think its a red haring to get you in the head of the gang. They WERE the best gang but innovation cought up. They had so much faith in dutch that they couldn’t believe some detective could out think him. Basically there is no rat, everyone was convinced there was to the point it made the players think so too.
I still expect it to be molly. Milton didn't know she died and probably promised her amnesty and a chance to get lost. She regretted her decision or wanted to give dutch a piece of her mind one last time. Milton blaming Micah was a strategic move to divide the gang further in a way molly knew would work.
When Arthur called Micah out before their final fight, he shouted "You rat" at him. Micah didn't even deny it then because they were alone, but replied "I'm a survivor, Black Lung". It's basically a confession.
Exactly. Was going to cite this. He admits to it. And he had Dutch’s wanted poster with the reward on it in the remains of his old camp. There’s a reason for that. Micah is playing the long game. Like he says to Strauss “There’s nothing as pleasurable as shooting someone in the back who thinks you like him.”
They mentioned in the paper on the Blackwater Massacre that the law had received a tip-off. I think, considering Milton mentions that Micah has only allegedly been feeding them intel since post-Caribbean, it's possible there were more than one rat. I think Micah was ratting on the gang, but I think there was another, Trelawny. The guy has the ability to come and go as he pleased, giving him ample time to fill the Pinkertons in, which completes the "When". Arthur makes it very clear that he would sell the gang out to save himself in "Magicians For Sport" which gives him the "How". Finally the gang goes down hill after the failed Saint Denis bank job, and it's a little suspicious how Trelawny seems to leave camp just before it went down. Arthur describes Trelawny main skill as stringing people along just enough, I think the casino boat job was just a stunt to make him seem trustworthy before taking off so that the gang wouldn't go after him. Sometimes the right answer can be the most obvious one. I think Micah was a rat thought the period Milton mentioned, which just happened to be after Trelawny left the gang (he doesn't show up after Gurma). The coincidence is way too perfect, Trelawny just happened to leave for good after Micah started snitching, both of them were rats.
i think the next game will take place before blackwater massacre and then our main character would see his/hers redemption by killed by john. after seeing or solving john was the rat who working for pinkertons. Therefore, that explains why john is killed rdr1 without his redemption; he was a rat afterall. I would be so pissed to see john was the rat all along, but this shit is crazy and wild and makes sense. It looks like game of thrones shit not gonna lie. and its amazing plot twist.
1) Micah met Dutch at 1898 and rides with the gang for 6 months. It is mentioned in the game. Also, after Arthur dies, the game jumps forward 8 years in 1907. 2) John wasn't the rat. John dissapeared back then, but, if he wanted to bring the Pinkertons to the gang, he would be able to do it all this time. He had all the time he wanted. 3) John and Arthur haven't got the best relationship in the game, they become "friends-brothers" in the end of the game, after Arthur gets sicker from TB and starts making better descisions. 4) Milton and Ross may have found the gang cause Micah. Remember when Micah said that he will go back only with peace offering? He just dissapeared and shortly after, the 2 agents found Arthur near the gang 5) Arthur praised John for the train robbery because it was good idea. Nothing more, nothing less. Arthur wanted to rob the train and take the money. Also, if John was betraying them, why would he go into fire fight with the law with only Arthur and Sean there? 6) In the blackwater robbery and failure, it was Micah who pursued Dutch to rob the boat and suddenly it went downhill. Why? Pinkertons swamped the area all of sudden. Do you remember when it happened again? With the Saint Denis bank. And Micah was there too and also wore a completely different outfit than the others (pure white) 7) John was arested 1 time and got shoot down another 2. Why would Pinkertons shoot down their information giver? He was also shoot in the blackwater robbery. 8) Milton and Ross were hired by Cornwell because the train robbery and John wasn't there, he was damaged and was resting. So this is why he may didn't know his name. 9) It is easy to see why Abigail run away, she didn't look threating at all. Also, Abigail wasn't an outlaw, she has no bounty iirc. She was just there, who would suspect her? She didn't even handle a gun. Again, we see Micah there looking completely different that the others. While John looks the same. You think Pinkertons could recognize who John was and not shoot him? He was captured because he was alone. Milton killed Hosea because he knew that it would make the gang mad and they could make mistakes. Lenny was shoot down because he was running with the others, they couldn't just arrest him because it would be pointiless. 10) Dutch was manipulated to death by Micah. Dutch also suspected Arthur as a traitor, and Arthur did nothing more than killing Pinkertons and defending the gang. Dutch let Arthur to die and he would have died if Eagle Flies didn't save him with the cost of his life. 11) You have a point about Abigail. But Abigail also shoot Milton and saved Arthur. Why would she do that? If she really wanted to betray the entire gang, she would simply let Arthur die and then kill or simple let Milton live. It would be easier for her, with Arthur dead, Milton would have to deal with less gang members (their best shooter is dead anyway) and it would be easier to turn them in. Also, John started shooting Pinkertons during this mission. Plus, in RDR1, John clearly dissrespects Ross and Pinkertons, why would his behavior change? 12) They didn't arrest John at train robbery because they thought he died. Why would they stop to look for someone who got shoot by a rifle and let the train go away with the money and all the gang members (including Dutch) to run away? 13) Micah was also the guy who almost got Arthur killed because (again) he persuaded Dutch to meet up with Colm. All this was a set up trap to get Arthur killed but he failed. He just waited the right time to kill/attack Arthur, because he was the only one who could have killed him in a blink of an eye. 14) This is the main point, why would John even care to kill Micah if he himself was the rat? He could have dissapeared and simple move on with his life. Why would he go after Micah with Charles and Sadie? Also why didn't he turn in Charles when he found him at Saint Denis? 15) Micah wasn't with Dutch all this time. Dutch must have arrived around the same time as John to get revenge. He clearly said it "Same as you". Micah couldn't turn in Dutch there anyway, Milton was dead, Ross would be hard to communicate with and other Pinkertons may didn't know his name. He also was in trouble before you met him (Cleet stated that), so he must have been hiding from the law. 16) Also, why would Milton even lie about Micah? It makes no sense, he could kill Arthur because he was weak. Other people there was Abigail and Sadie. If Abigail was the rat, why would she shoot him (like i said) and what would come out after that? Sadie was also arrested and mostly would be executed. So Milton claiming that Micah is the rat and lie about this makes no sense. 17) Finally, John was with the gang for a very long time and the gang was surviving. It went downhill after Micah joined. Micah even somehow admited he was the rat, when he said "I am a survivor" or "You are the vulture", he didn't deny about being rat when he was fighting Arthur and he was trying to convince Dutch to go back to Blackwater to take the money even when their were wanted as "Dead or Alive". He started claiming he wasn't the rat only when Dutch was in front of him. Even at the final mission, there is a rat comming out of Micah's hideout. PS: Sorry for the huge text, hope you will read it with enjoyement :P
Very well said. I think it's also worth mentioning how Micah had a Dutch wanted poster at his little campsite (forgot the mission where you could find his camp, I think it was after the mission where you save him from the jail). So this means Micah was planning to betray the gang from the start. While the theory of Micah not being the rat seems interesting, it's just that I feel like the writers had no clear way of saying that Micah snitched out the gang (without any fans thinking he didnt), while still having it so Micah could convince Dutch that Arthur was lying. This is why they added little things such as the rat coming out of his shack, even though rats don't live on snow. It's also why Milton said it straight up to Arthur directly. Again, Milton had no reason to lie, as he was for sure he was going to win. Arthur was weak and sick, and Sadie and Abigail are tied up. He said how Micah snitched as a little goodbye/rub-it-in-your-face sorta thing, before he killed Arthur, so he had no reason to lie about it.
On his return from Guarma, he certainly went to Van Horn's salon and looked shabby in front of the people there. They started asking him where he came from and what his name was! Micah talked he came from the Caribbean and never mentioned Guarma and tell his name (and here's his famous name from his father's name, which was known in most states) there was certainly a spy either a prostitute or a man and he wanted money to tell pinkerton (we noticed how the inhabitants of this city are grumpy and poores want money in any way) but they did not know where the gang settled and did not know that they were in Beaver hollow or lakay. Note that the gang stayed for a long time in Beaverhollow hiding and pinkerton were looking for them. This slight information is what Agent Milton got from van horn residents (the Caribbean Sea and the famous name Micah bell) and he did not say (Guarma) !! milton was not know where they were for that long, so milton used the famous name of Micah Bell and the name of the sea to stir up strife between the gang. So Micah Bell was never close to Milton, he proved himself to be an outlaw man for life Micah wasn't 1% by side pinkertons and we never saw that, all we saw was face-to-face fighting in front of the public more than once, and he had many opportunities to hand over Dutch and win the money full but he did not. • ●He was his chance to sell dutch in Saint Denis, but he did not, despite his feeling of danger and death. • • ●he was his chance at Lakay to Betray Dutch while he was in his weakest condition, but he did not. • • ●he was his golden opportunity to extradite Dutch and betray him or kill him when they came to meet Cornwall and we saw Milton and Edgar Ross, but he did not! instead of that carry out Dutch orders to rob the room and steal Cornwall's bonds for the second time, Dutch killed Cornwall and from there they went out to fight face to face in front of the guards and pinkerton !! And after that, they continued for a period that no one knew about them in Beaver hollow. • • ● while The gang goes to sleep was his golden opportunity to annihilate the entire gang, as he did in Strawberry and Rhodes, but he did not. Instead of that we see him sitting around the campfire enjoying by his cigarette. • • ● We see him wandering around the camp and calling to stay around the leader dutch and believing in him, and he says( stick with us to the gang members and he said that to Arthur and said only the leader is Dutch, listen to Dutch, leave the doubt), and he did not go out to fight native American people because this is not Dutch's orders but Arthur's orders! • • ● pinkerton believed that the gang had become weak after the killing Hosea and Lenny and John's arrest But Micah fed the gang with two outlaws to strengthen the gang, hold together and protect Dutch. • • ●The last attack we can see Edgar Ross calling for the annihilation of the entire gang, and these critical moments were Micah's opportunity to turn against Dutch and stand on the side of Pinkerton, but he did not, can saw micah shoot them face to face and escape with Dutch ,micah got a foot injury from shoot pinkerton and became limping when he returned to the cave. • • ●At the end and fighting with Arthur, whether on the mountain or at the cave, his golden opportunity was with Dutch by shooting or throwing a knife at him when Dutch turned around his back and walked, and wining by taking the money full for himself, but he did not. Instead of that, He kept ask and begging with Dutch to take the money and escape together in the boat .. All these evidence prove that Micah was not 1% by the pinkerton side and did not join the law as John. Rather, he stayed for several years in the same situation with an outlaw gang until he became an old man outlaw for life. • ●The poster is old and circulating in Strawberry because it has 1000 for dutch and 5000 for Arthur as he has poster for His Father and himself and Micah likes read and polled in the newspapers. Just like Arthur when he holds posters .There is a poster of Javier in Shady Belle and the whole gang saw him. • • ●The arrival of Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham at the end of the second epilogue were just two people who were called from strawberry from the citizens who saw the chaos of Sadie Adler and John Morston and mentioned them the name of John Morston..Here Pinkerton knew that they were still alive and they followed them. Although John concealed his name, but Sadie revealed his name And they were shouting the name of the fame to Micah bell .Here we see that Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham came on a search mission, not a chase and attack and will not stop to followed Milton's killers and Arrest of outlaws.
@@soonmoon2288 First paragraph is 100% speculation. People back there were curious about everything. He never mentioned Guarma because all the shit happened back there would probably get spread and he didn't want to be recognized as someone who caused problems there. The rest about "spy etc" is an assumption. Micah was wanted but not so well known compared to Dutch for example. They stayed long because they lied low. When they robbed the train at St Denis, they had to leave because they got swamped by Pinkertons sooner. Also doesn't answer my answer : Why would Milton lie to someone who was one shot away from death? The 2 other women were going to die or to jail anyway. As to why didn't Micah turn in Dutch when he had opportunities : Micah wasn't an idiot. And Micah didn't pick a side either. Micah was someone who could sell his children in order to survive and make money. I will try to explain you what happened. Micah found Dutch, he then wanted to rob the money at Blackwater, he persueded Dutch to do it cause he was planning to turn in Dutch in the right momment and get away with the money + his freedom. But Dutch had an entire gang on his side, if Micah tried anything there, he would end up dead. Anyway, Blackwater fails, they are forced to run away. All this time, Micah is trying two things : 1) get rid of people who are close to Dutch and who don't trust him (Hosea and Arthur), 2) Persude Dutch to go back to Blackwater for the money or even go there alone to retrieve the money. Dutch doesn't trust Micah yet, but when Hosea, Lenny, Sean and others die, Micah can influence Dutch more. So he does, this is why he calls him "leader" all the time but completely desrespects EVERYONE else in the gang, being sexist and rescist. Eventually, he dissapears after Strawberry and you go with him to take some money from a caravan, but Micah never donated anything to the camp (proof is that you can ask gang members if he donated anything). After some time, he keeps licking Dutch's butthole, then we come to St Denis, where the same thing happened. Pinkertons arrived a way to early and Micah was the other one in white outfit to give them signals that he is the traitor between them, in case more members died and only Dutch survive, he could persuade Dutch to tell him where the blackwater money is or to turn him in. But things go wrong, Lenny and Hosea (his golden moment) die and John gets arrested. When they come back from Guarma, Dutch isn't alone, this is why Micah can't do anything yet. Micah doesn't want to turn Dutch in. He first wants Dutch to tell him where the Blackwater money is and then he can turn him in. This is why he never turns him in even if he can, like in the final mission. He knows that staying with Dutch can profit him and he tries his best to earn his trust. And the money from the train were nothing compared to the money from Blackwater. Also, why doesn't he kill them in the camp, you think Micah stands any chance against Arthur, who, with TB he draws faster than him? Add Javier, Bill, Grimshaw, Sadie, Charles and John, if Micah tried to kill anyone in the camp, not only he would die, but even if he didn't die, he would never learn about the Blackwater money and he would lose Dutch forever, which means he would end up wandering alone. He constantly tries to get rid of Arthur (at the Colm meet up for example) and he brings 2 other outlaws to increase his influence and make Dutch trust him more. He kills Pinkertons because he isn't exactly siding with them, he sides with no one. He cares only about himself. Ross also arrived there because Micah was on charge again. Micah was waiting the perfect opportunity now, he had the money for Blackwater and Dutch went to him. Ross was probably waiting for the right moment to meet Micah there so he can arrest Dutch. Ross isn't stupid, in fact he is a very intelligent man. He knew that almost all the gang was dead, with only a few bountry-survivors : Charles, John and Sadie. And i think he knew that John was the best shooter among them, so instead of going after Sadie (who was a bounty hunter anyway) or Charles (who moved to Canada) he chooses to go after John because he could use his family to make him track the others down. Also, Ross went like "searching" someone when he first meets Arthur and later on the camp. He also went like that for John. He isn't the type of guy who shoots everyone. And even Dutch in the end realizes how wrong he was and shoots Micah. He realized that Micah was indeed the rat. All the gang downfall started after Micah joined them. I mean, Rockstar makes it obvious that Micah was the rat, even his actor hates the character + we see a rat commining out of his hideout at snow, and rats aren't seen in places like that.
Alright, this makes sense. Except one thing. Why would John go after Micah in American Venom? That makes no sense, Micah got in Dutch’s head and destroyed the gang. So Micah did John’s job already. Why would he be so pissed about it? He was also mad about what Micah did to Arthur. I highly doubt that’s how a guy would act if he was gonna be a rat. Yes, I know I commented 19 hours ago but this just occurred to me...
Well like I said he could've been under pressure and I think John actually cared about Arthur after what Arthur did for him even though he was a rat doesn't mean that he lost his feelings. In the end I said that mentioning Arthur is therapeutic for John because he didn't wanted to do it. It's similar with Ellie form TLOU 2 where she had trauma and she went for Abby in the end only because she would hope to lose this trauma about Joel and not for real ''revenge''. John maybe hated himself for this and couldn't stop thinking about Arthur so he decided that killing Micah who everyone thought is the rat and who killed Arthur would stop him from hating himself and redeem Arthur. This is a theory and it's not 100% true but it sounds fitting to me. What do you think?
Ok, I'm gonna have to debunk this. Micah has not been with Dutch for years. He says "All matter of Folks paying Social calls. " This means all kinds of people are visiting him. Then Dutch comes out. By having Dutch coming out straight after Micah saying all kinds of people are visiting him, Rockstar are saying Dutch had recently teamed up With Micah. Micah also says how Dutch and Micah are teaming up once more. Why would he say that if they have been together for years and did not brake apart for long? Micah was in fact gonna turn Dutch in. Which is why Ross was at Mount Hagen and was confused to see Micahs corpse. Micah wanted to turn Dutch in to Ross. Micah also offered John to join him so he was probably thinking about turning John in too and Micah also says "I got more men coming, John! " In Chapter 3, Milton was not pretending to not know John. You said how The Pinkertons have encountered John in Valantine but they were Cornwalls Men not Pinkertons. Having that aside, Milton would Recognise John if he made a deal with him. The Reason Micah did not care about Abigail being potentially Captured and John did is because Micah only cares about Surviving and Abigail is John's wife after all. They only Took Abigail as it Tilly said She Took Jack and hid. Plus as Rockstar was making a Prequal, I doubt Rockstar would make John a Rat as this would be so inconsistent with RDR1. In RDR1, John is disgusted to be Working with Ross and is only doing work with him to get his family back
Nice one on John, it wouldn't be the last time he was forced to turn on his friends, as for Micah, ive always thought he wasn't really the rat. Milton would absolutely lie about who was informing them to try and divide the gang.
And why would John call himself Jim MILTON in the epilogue? Is he in some kind of informal “witness protection” program? Wouldn’t be a first for Rockstar 😂
Micah bell has golden chances to prove his betrayal, but he did not do anything that indicates his betrayal. On his return from Guarma, he certainly went to Van Horn's salon and looked shabby in front of the people there. They started asking him where he came from and what his name was! Micah talked he came from the Caribbean and never mentioned Guarma and tell his name (and here's his famous name from his father's name, which was known in most states) there was certainly a spy either a prostitute or a man and he wanted money to tell pinkerton (we noticed how the inhabitants of this city are grumpy and poores want money in any way) but they did not know where the gang settled and did not know that they were in Beaver hollow or lakay. Note that the gang stayed for a long time in Beaverhollow hiding and pinkerton were looking for them. This slight information is what Agent Milton got from van horn residents (the Caribbean Sea and the famous name Micah bell) and he did not say (Guarma) !! milton was not know where they were for that long, so milton used the famous name of Micah Bell and the name of the sea to stir up strife between the gang. So Micah Bell was never close to Milton, he proved himself to be an outlaw man for life Micah wasn't 1% by side pinkertons and we never saw that, all we saw was face-to-face fighting in front of the public more than once, and he had many opportunities to hand over Dutch and win the money full but he did not. • ●He was his chance to sell dutch in Saint Denis, but he did not, despite his feeling of danger and death. • • ●he was his chance at Lakay to Betray Dutch while he was in his weakest condition, but he did not. • • ●he was his golden opportunity to extradite Dutch and betray him or kill him when they came to meet Cornwall and we saw Milton and Edgar Ross, but he did not! instead of that carry out Dutch orders to rob the room and steal Cornwall's bonds for the second time, Dutch killed Cornwall and from there they went out to fight face to face in front of the guards and pinkerton !! And after that, they continued for a period that no one knew about them in Beaver hollow. • • ● while The gang goes to sleep was his golden opportunity to annihilate the entire gang, as he did in Strawberry and Rhodes, but he did not. Instead of that we see him sitting around the campfire enjoying by his cigarette. • • ● We see him wandering around the camp and calling to stay around the leader dutch and believing in him, and he says( stick with us to the gang members and he said that to Arthur and said only the leader is Dutch, listen to Dutch, leave the doubt), and he did not go out to fight native American people because this is not Dutch's orders but Arthur's orders! • • ● pinkerton believed that the gang had become weak after the killing Hosea and Lenny and John's arrest But Micah fed the gang with two outlaws to strengthen the gang, hold together and protect Dutch. • • ●The last attack we can see Edgar Ross calling for the annihilation of the entire gang, and these critical moments were Micah's opportunity to turn against Dutch and stand on the side of Pinkerton, but he did not, can saw micah shoot them face to face and escape with Dutch ,micah got a foot injury from shoot pinkerton and became limping when he returned to the cave. • • ●At the end and fighting with Arthur, whether on the mountain or at the cave, his golden opportunity was with Dutch by shooting or throwing a knife at him when Dutch turned around his back and walked, and wining by taking the money full for himself, but he did not. Instead of that, He kept ask and begging with Dutch to take the money and escape together in the boat .. All these evidence prove that Micah was not 1% by the pinkerton side and did not join the law as John. Rather, he stayed for several years in the same situation with an outlaw gang until he became an old man outlaw for life. • ●The poster is old and circulating in Strawberry because it has 1000 for dutch and 5000 for Arthur as he has poster for His Father and himself and Micah likes read and polled in the newspapers. Just like Arthur when he holds posters .There is a poster of Javier in Shady Belle and the whole gang saw him. • • ●The arrival of Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham at the end of the second epilogue were just two people who were called from strawberry from the citizens who saw the chaos of Sadie Adler and John Morston and mentioned them the name of John Morston..Here Pinkerton knew that they were still alive and they followed them. Although John concealed his name, but Sadie revealed his name And they were shouting the name of the fame to Micah bell .Here we see that Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham came on a search mission, not a chase and attack and will not stop to followed Milton's killers and Arrest of outlaws.
@@poseidon3492 Blind man Cassidy explained the traitor by the emergence of his truth as the devil making sacrifice in fields surrounded by fire and flesh , and this is the oil field mission of the Cornwall in the mission of my last son.
Here's how I think it went off: Micah got captured after returning from Guarma, after this, Milton offered him a deal to sold the gang, but it was a deal just between Milton and Micah (maybe a few more guys) and not sanctioned by Pinkerton Detective Agency because at that point, after all the chaos the gang caused across the east the pinkertons no longer wanted to arrest, they wanted to kill. Milton on other hand after all the fail attempts of pursuing Van Der Linde members tought that the best way to destroy the gang was to cause damage from within, so he sent Micah to cause an internal conflict and separate everyone so they could become weaker and they did, half the gang fleet and the rest that were left were already planing to leave, then the Pinkertons striked and finally dissolved the gang. So Micah's plan was do that one last job in the train, get the dough and get out clean after turning Dutch in. But Micah plans to flee without any heat were done after Arthur killed Milton so, no deal for him, he turned back to be a wanted criminal on the run.
On his return from Guarma, he certainly went to Van Horn's salon and looked shabby in front of the people there. They started asking him where he came from and what his name was! Micah talked he came from the Caribbean and never mentioned Guarma and tell his name (and here's his famous name from his father's name, which was known in most states) there was certainly a spy either a prostitute or a man and he wanted money to tell pinkerton (we noticed how the inhabitants of this city are grumpy and poores want money in any way) but they did not know where the gang settled and did not know that they were in Beaver hollow or lakay. Note that the gang stayed for a long time in Beaverhollow hiding and pinkerton were looking for them. This slight information is what Agent Milton got from van horn residents (the Caribbean Sea and the famous name Micah bell) and he did not say (Guarma) !! milton was not know where they were for that long, so milton used the famous name of Micah Bell and the name of the sea to stir up strife between the gang. So Micah Bell was never close to Milton, he proved himself to be an outlaw man for life Micah wasn't 1% by side pinkertons and we never saw that, all we saw was face-to-face fighting in front of the public more than once, and he had many opportunities to hand over Dutch and win the money full but he did not. • ●He was his chance to sell dutch in Saint Denis, but he did not, despite his feeling of danger and death. • • ●he was his chance at Lakay to Betray Dutch while he was in his weakest condition, but he did not. • • ●he was his golden opportunity to extradite Dutch and betray him or kill him when they came to meet Cornwall and we saw Milton and Edgar Ross, but he did not! instead of that carry out Dutch orders to rob the room and steal Cornwall's bonds for the second time, Dutch killed Cornwall and from there they went out to fight face to face in front of the guards and pinkerton !! And after that, they continued for a period that no one knew about them in Beaver hollow. • • ● while The gang goes to sleep was his golden opportunity to annihilate the entire gang, as he did in Strawberry and Rhodes, but he did not. Instead of that we see him sitting around the campfire enjoying by his cigarette. • • ● We see him wandering around the camp and calling to stay around the leader dutch and believing in him, and he says( stick with us to the gang members and he said that to Arthur and said only the leader is Dutch, listen to Dutch, leave the doubt), and he did not go out to fight native American people because this is not Dutch's orders but Arthur's orders! • • ● pinkerton believed that the gang had become weak after the killing Hosea and Lenny and John's arrest But Micah fed the gang with two outlaws to strengthen the gang, hold together and protect Dutch. • • ●The last attack we can see Edgar Ross calling for the annihilation of the entire gang, and these critical moments were Micah's opportunity to turn against Dutch and stand on the side of Pinkerton, but he did not, can saw micah shoot them face to face and escape with Dutch ,micah got a foot injury from shoot pinkerton and became limping when he returned to the cave. • • ●At the end and fighting with Arthur, whether on the mountain or at the cave, his golden opportunity was with Dutch by shooting or throwing a knife at him when Dutch turned around his back and walked, and wining by taking the money full for himself, but he did not. Instead of that, He kept ask and begging with Dutch to take the money and escape together in the boat .. All these evidence prove that Micah was not 1% by the pinkerton side and did not join the law as John. Rather, he stayed for several years in the same situation with an outlaw gang until he became an old man outlaw for life. • ●The poster is old and circulating in Strawberry because it has 1000 for dutch and 5000 for Arthur as he has poster for His Father and himself and Micah likes read and polled in the newspapers. Just like Arthur when he holds posters .There is a poster of Javier in Shady Belle and the whole gang saw him. • • ●The arrival of Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham at the end of the second epilogue were just two people who were called from strawberry from the citizens who saw the chaos of Sadie Adler and John Morston and mentioned them the name of John Morston..Here Pinkerton knew that they were still alive and they followed them. Although John concealed his name, but Sadie revealed his name And they were shouting the name of the fame to Micah bell .Here we see that Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham came on a search mission, not a chase and attack and will not stop to followed Milton's killers and Arrest of outlaws.
but when arthur confronted micah why did micah try to kill him? then when they were fighting on the cliff micah says ''I've been waiting to kill u a long time ago'' what i think is dutch and micah was plotting to kill arthur because he was catching on to them thats why all of a sudden dutch and micah are best buddies now micah tried to also let abagail go, lied and said john was dead. and in that oil factory dutch literally watched arthur get captured, then when arthur rescued john dutch got mad because he wanted to let john get hanged thats why john said ''when i got arrested in that bank dutch seen it... i feel like he had a chance to do something be he didnt'' micah plan was to get on dutch's good side sabtoge everything, and at the end he was going to kill dutch but he left him to live because he needed dutch to get that money. micah is just evil but smart. he ratted on the gang, behind dutch's back, and even when arthur confronted micah about ratting, micah didn't even deny it! and then if john really was ratting why did the cops shoot him?
@@north6620 You understood things in a superficial way..Look what politicians do, then you will understand the nature of Micah.. Micah when he said I have been waiting to kill you for a long time, this means that he saw Arthur separated from Dutch's gang of his own free will, and here he sees him no longer beside Dutch and also he wanted Arthur to be a brother to him instead of his brother Amos, but Arthur was treating him badly So he turned against him.. The Japanese theory explains in depth this, There is no traitor..but suspicion and internal conflict arose between the gang after the murder of Molly, Dutch and Micah surrounded themselves with the gang members and put them in the forefront. Arthur wanted to clean up his life after he saw civilized progress and the law..so he started recommending his whispers to the members and urging them to engage with life and the law and not Rebellion against civilization.
imagine in rdr3 we play with micah where we learn that he wasnt even that bad, missunderstood and we find out he never rated anyone out just to end up dying
As Micah says “There’s nothing as pleasurable as shooting a man in the back when he thinks you like him.” If you think that Micah being nice **when it serves his interests** means anything, you’ve only been easily fooled.
When you go to the mountain to face off with him, a rat crosses your path. That’s so in your face about the truth it’s crazy. It’s the game validating the truth that micah is a rat. Clear as day, he’s a rat. He wasn’t always a rat. After Guarma is when he sold the gang out. Before that, as Arthur says “we don’t need a rat. They know WHO we are and WHERE we are, and what we’re doin” Dutch just doesn’t care anymore and makes calls based on what he wants. He wanted to shoot Cornwall, so he did. He drowned Brontë, he doesn’t give a shit about heat on the gang. Micah is responsible for a whole lot, not just ratting the gang out. That’s the idea, it doesn’t matter if he’s a rat or not, what matters is he’s a manipulative sycophant that destroyed the gang from the inside. So, now that it doesn’t matter, who cares? Hence the rat crossing our path. It’s rockstar going “hey guess what? You were right.”
After robbing the train in chapter 2, you can read in the newspaper that the police were tipped off anonymously about the robbery, which is why they arrived so fast with so many
There was no rat. The gang just got sloppier than the town drunk. They constantly brought unnecessary attention down on themselves with their antics. The brawl in Valentine, the river boat job, stealing the dynamite for the bridge. If you return to these towns people recognize Arthur and will even remark on it. It stands to reason other people recognized other gang members too. They didn't keep any kind of low profile at all. They would have been easy to track.
@@poseidon3492 I’m not sure I believe that theory but it’s very plausible. Colm and Dutch have clearly had an established rivalry and Colm has clearly shown he’s willing to use dirty tactics (kidnapping Arthur at the meetup). Micah was only riding with the gang for I think a few months by the time the game starts but the Blackwater job was his idea, which went horribly. He mentions a brawl he got in with some O’Driscolls who have no other reason to fight alongside one of Dutch’s guys since they seem to shoot Arthur on sight. Oh yea and the meetup he planned. It’s kind of fishy that Micah sends Arthur up a specific hill where O’Driscolls happen to be at. I don’t think Micah was an O’Driscoll implant but the theory does have a lot of validity. I’m probably missing more, I just started thinking about it now after reading the comment so I could be completely wrong
They say that the excuse is that as soon as Micah joined the gang became unlucky but u could also argue that as soon as John returned they became unlucky
I would disagree. At the end of the game, in the extra cutscenes it shows Agent Ross looking at Micah’s dead body and being confused. Why would Agent Ross know the exact location of Micah? Micah was probably waiting for the perfect time to turn Dutch in.
Or they were following John's lead and I can't believe that he couldn't turn in Dutch. I mean he was one of the main guys in the gang this time and maybe even more important than Dutch. It would be extremely easy to turn him in this time
@@poseidon3492 for real i just saw a theory that its make more sense but abigail is the rat john would problably not do this but abigail got a eye for changing of live
@@poseidon3492 They were following John’s lead? Sorry but, how is that even possible? Because firstly, John didn’t do any criminal activity in the epilogue for Ross to find out. I might be wrong since I last played this in august.
Excuse me focus on conversations in this task, Edgar Ross goes and says where is Dutch ?brought him and kill him, kill them all, and if you use the free camera you find Micah Bell killing a lot of the Pinkerton in front of them, and he shouting on Dutch to escape, and you will see Dutch and Micah and the rest are hiding under a hill And when you open the map, you will not find a red mark at Micah, and when you choose to return for the money here a yellow spot appears on the map, indicating that Micah and Arthur returned from the same way and their goal is the same as money, Arthur returned to take the money, but Micah returned by order of Dutch, so they met at the cave The dialogue took place, and Micah is angry at Arthur for having separated from Dutch willingly and wants money, so he sees him as a traitor. Arthur sees Micah a traitor because of the saying of the manipulative fool Milton (listen to his conversations at the lake with Arthur and listen to his friends in Shady Belle what they say about him) and the only survivor three times is abigail ,She was not sudden reaction to the mention of the name Micah Bell ,she was ready to betray before (where was Jack when Milton came to Lakay) Micah bell went out himself and killing and slaughtering in the pinkerton, abigail steal Dutch's key without his knowledge and without knowledge of Miss Susan.Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..
@@susandontdeletemyaccount3863 It's easy to explain. Like I said they had a deal. John would turn in Dutch and in return get Abigail but like we see in the end he just escapes with Abigail without finishing his part of the deal which was capturing Dutch. Like I said he might have been under pressure from Pinkertons side and it makes sense why John just wanted to escape. It also explains why he was on the run all this years after Arthurs death. The Pinkertons were always following him because he didn't do his part of the deal and in the end he got sloppy when he revealed his real name in Blackwater and Strawberry. Plus when he did all this mess with Micah gang and his biggest mistake was settling down and stop running. That's when they got him.
I don't really think he was the rat either. The gang had its worst luck when Molly was alive, and after she died they actually had a lot of success (colm oldrisco dying, getting away with killing Cornwall, and the last train heist was fairly smooth). The only proof Micah was a rat came from Agent Milton, who could be lying. It's pretty likely since the lie fractured the gang in two.
The real rat has to be abigail roberts. She kept wanting a normal life, she escapes from the pinkertons, she sends Arthur with her son to get miltion to speak to him, some how John's not killed, nor hanged, she's captured and not hanged either... its defo abigail
even if Micah Wasnt a rat he is still to blame for the downfall of the gang as well as the deaths of pretty much everybody, the biggest one being Arthur Morgan, if Micah never joined then Dutch never would have agreed to the ferry job in black water, meaning they never would have had to escape east over the grizzly's, meaning they never would have ended up in valentine where Strauss would lend money to Thomas Downes, eventually resulting in Arthur collecting from him and contracting TB, every bad thing that happened to the gang is a result of Micah's manipulation of Dutch, as well as Dutch's Naivety and incompetence, that let him be manipulated by someone like Micah, someone who in the early days of the gang he would have despised.
Abigail was the rat the entire time she wanted to escape the gang with John and Jack and the gangs saved up money that dutch would keep near camp, and since Milton wants dutch ofcourse Abigail would give him a run down of the members still there what they're doing and their relationships with each other so it makes sense for Milton to blame Micah as the rat to Arthur because Arthur hates Micah and Milton knew it would lead the gang to a falling out and either they kill themselves or it would be easier for Milton to roll in and during the saint Denis robbery Abigail "escape" they take John alive yet shoot Hosea and Lenny who were both defenseless or atleast had weapons holstered where as John is actively shooting Pinkerton's and yet is taken alive why? Because that's Abigail's deal with Milton she gives him the gang only if John jack and Abigail are free and then later she would go get the money you have to take note that Micah is incredibly loyal to dutch and dutch also has all the money including what's in blackwater so why would Micah betray him?
I think the fact that there are so many contradictory theories about the rat proves that this part of the story is not well-written... Micah being the rat is just weird. His main goal was to retreive the blackwater money, and for that he needs Dutch because only Dutch knows where the stash is. So it would make no sense to betray Dutch if you desperately need him. This is why he kept agreeing with Dutch and slipped more ideas into his head to become his new favorite. Betraying the gang only ruins his reputation in Dutch's eyes, we see that Dutch leaves him after the fight with Arthur, so what was the point of all this? Also, he doesn't seem like the type who would ever work with the law, we see in the epilogue that he's still a gangster and that he likes it. And I don't see any reason for Pinkertons to get the most notorious gang member and be like "hey that guy can work for us, the one who kills and robs the most"... I think that the rat stuff was thrown in the game just to make a simple excuse for Micah being the final boss, as if you couldn't have done that better... I would be fine with Micah betraying Dutch AFTER they get the money from blackwater, that way he gets all the money and has guaranteed freedom, but betraying Dutch before that is just stupid and out of character.
I don't think the epilogue is the best evidence for Micah not being a rat... because Micah says that he's been getting all sorts of visitors lately, and then Dutch steps out of the cabin, implying that Dutch had just recently arrived with the money from Blackwater in tow. So Micah hadn't been with Dutch over the past 6 years, Dutch was likely living a solitary life out in the wilderness trying to rationalize what happened and came to the conclusion based on what happened on the mountain, that Arthur was right and Micah was the rat. Arthur thought Micah was the rat because that's what Milton told him, and I think Milton told Arthur that with the intention of letting Arthur, Sadie, and Abigail - the real rat - slip away back to camp in order to feed Dutch this bad intel. After that happened, the problem would solve itself through breakdown of trust and infighting... which it does. Abigail was the rat from the beginning, but I think she stopped being an informant after the Saint Denis heist because of what Milton did to Hosea. After that, as Arthur put so eloquently, they didn't need a rat, because they'd gotten sloppier than the town drunk. John may have been a rat too, but it wouldn't make sense after the Blackwater Heist, because that would have been the perfect opportunity for both of them to get away with Jack after having delivered Dutch and the rest of the gang to the Pinkertons. Abigail probably stuck around precisely BECAUSE John wasn't an informant and he got hurt at Blackwater.
Im years late on this hype but I believe there was no rat. Molly was just drunk a tightlipped drunk for the gang, but a loudmouth drunk to the gang, died because of it, but probably led the pinkertons to the camp after drunkly walking back to camp.. and someone surveiled them. "I'm not much of a company anyway" Micah had extreme daddy issues and sees Dutch as a father figure, got super jealous with Arthur and suggested the ferry mission to get recognition. "I'm a survivor, black lung, a survivor!" The Pinkertons are blood hound investigators, they found out about the bank heist through the gang's shenannigans before the heist, and found John by their own. "I enjoy society" The ferry massacre contained loads of munneh with little to no guards which is not ideal but turns out the popos and agency was already on standby incase someone robs it, and someone did, no one was expecting for it to be robbed which is why the gang even managed to escape, the innocent woman who was shot probably saw Dutch's face or someone from the gang which led to the rare disease called bullet through brains, which starts the parade where people suddenly sleep on the ground. "I did it to survive"
I always thought Micah wasn't the rat for the St. denis bank hiest at least. After thinking about it. The law/Pinkertons showed up because the gang drew attention when killing that rich guy. You get the bank mission RIGHT after. Of course after the noise from killing that rich guy and the trolley station etc, that put the law on high alert. Since players pointed out Miltion said Micah didn't spill the tea until after Guarma
2 points.. 1 there is a news paper clipping with reward for Dutch at Micah camp behind strawberry.. point 2 John wouldn't have knew about the lakay hideout..
He was neither Rat nor snake nor traitor, Milton also knew that Arthur hated Micah's presence. Micah's defensive reaction is seen when Arthur carelessly uses the gang's authority and then points a gun. anyone would have done what micah did if he didn't feel guilty. On the other hand, Micah is the only gang who is most loyal to the Dutch even though he is a ridiculous smart, gentleman and very cruel person. Loyalty to the Dutch its more prominent than Bill, Javier, Pearson, Mary Beth, Tilly, Abigail, John or Arthur. Arthur's craziest mistake is to corner Micah into hating him to death with his crazy conspiracy theories about the Black Water case, Sean's death in Rhodes and then the robbery in Saint Denis that took the lives of Lenny and Hosea. Micah has never hated Arthur personally, in fact he sincerely respects him like the mission when Arthur saved Micah in the Strawberry Prison in chapter 2 then Micah gave a special gift that players could use like a holster as proof of his gratitude to Arthur, on the other hand Arthur continued to treat Micah like Fool people.
*6 months. Micah was the most recent member joining 6 months before the start of the game so not much time to establish loyalty, if anything that makes him the most suspect
It's kinda convincing that john is the rat but i honestly think micah is still the rat. remember when in chapter 6 john gets shot dutch and micah comes back ''hEs dEaD'' when he really wasn't he was shot, i mean we all knew he was going to survive because he's literally in the first game, thats not my point. then arthur says abagail was captured. micah tries his best to convince dutch that he should let abagail go and he somehow managed to convince dutch that. then they get into the oil place where they raided it with the indians, when they go in to get the papers, dutch literally WATCHES arthur get captured as he says ''dutch i need help!'' dutch walks out of the building then rain falls son comes in and saves arthur arthur confronts duch but dutch denies it, and tries to make it seem like arthur is lying basically. BUT this is not all about dutch. what i think is that if arthur went to rescue abagail milton was gonna snitch on micah basically saying he's been snitching. It's just so convenient that milton chooses micah??? why micah? why not bill javier, or even one of the girls. then when arthur come's back and says micah is snitching, why did micah kill arthur? is it because him and dutch has BEEN planning to kill arthur because arthur was way to smart for his own good, knowing something was off about dutch and micah. micah plan was to kill arthur (because arthur found out he was snitching) he tried to get on dutch good side, then kill dutch and have all the money for himself. what im trying to say is, thats why micah was acting fishy tried to let abagail go, etc. then one day in chapter 6 micah started messing with jack. john says ''leave my son alone if u have anything to say say it to me u son of a b) then afther micah and john get through arguing john says ''MICAH THINKS IM THE RAT? AFTHER ALL THEM YEARS!!!!!!'' basically im trying to say micah was trying to sabatoge everything, tried to say everyone else was ratting, and thats why he was acting all sweet to dutch. just the way micah was defending himself when arthur confronted him just sounds guilty so i think im 100% postive micah was ratting. him and dutch's plan was to kill arthur because he was to smart for them. knowing they was plotting aginst him.
I’ve been playing this game again though after four years, and that is a great point I never picked up on, when you find Micah on the mountain he has Dutch with him and they’re still hiding? We always assume that Mika is the rat but you’re right I don’t think he is, because why would he still be hiding with Dutch unless the death of Milton kind of nullified his deal
every few months i get obsessed with rdr2 lore and i recently wondered if abigail and john really were the rat. im glad when i searched it ur video was here!
7:46 That is not accurate. It weren't the Pinkertons who held John and Strauss hostage in Valentine. Those were Cornwall's men. Cornwall finances the Pinkertons after his train has been robbed, but he also has his own men. Even 12 years after Dutch killed Cornwall in Annesbrug (1911 RDR1), the Pinkertons (Agent Ross) pursue the gang. Both work indepentently from another. I think it was Abigail who betrayed the gang so that she, Jack and John could live a peaceful life and leave their criminal past behind. Afterall, she was the driving force for John to become a decent man and good father. If it weren't for her, John would have stayed an outlaw indefinitely. Andrew Milton only told Arthur that Micah was the rat to protect Abigail and drive a wedge between the remaining gang members.
A point is milton told micah was a good boy since they came back from guarmy. And a example is the robbery in saint denis was before guarma. So who told the pinkertons about the bankjob in saint denis?
It was mac callander , the pinkertons got alot of info off him by torturing him until his slow painful death from being refused medical attention during interrogation
@@poseidon3492he could’ve been forced to work with them against his will since he left the gang the first time and there’s no introduction of him working for the pinkertons in any of the games so as far as I’m concerned he could’ve been a federal informant before the black water heist if not him then Abigail
Hmm. I think Micah is a rat but I don’t really blame him tbh. He has no reason to be loyal to the Van Der Linde gang. He’s in it for the money, and when things get so bad they end up stranded in Guarma he wouldn’t want to be part of the gang anymore. He’s losing faith in Dutch’s plans. And then he’s picked up by Pinkertons. Either die for these people you’ve only known for a couple months? Or rat them out and save yourself? Obviously save yourself.
I think maybe Molly O-Shea did speak as Dutch beggan to avoid here and she came to the thought that he was cheating as no one in the gang cared for her nor did she. She Ratted them out and Micah had chances to either kill Arthur or if he was after Dutches Bounty Turn him In. My theory is that Molly O-Shea has ratted them out during Chapter 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6. If i am not right it might be Abigail Roberts as she would not be able to slip away anyone found out that it was strange in Chapter 2 When Arthur Wwent Fishing with Jack that Pinkertons Magicaly appered or somone called them as only Abigail Knew where they were going. I hope that Micah isnt the Rat as i liked him in the start he was the badass who killed anyone and everyone against the gang
John isn't because although he went away for a year AWOL Micah is rarely in camp and is also sometimes away every few days with gives him enough time to lead information into the Pinkertons, and John wouldn't be away for a year JUST giving info to the Pinkertons.
Because Milton and Ross wanted the glory. The gang is a trophy to them. So after they brought down the gang, they needed to get the last one, for the glory.
My personal take on it is Micah didn't rat or work with the Pinkertons EVER he was far to violent and unpredictable to be used to get information from. Uncle, Pearson, Abigail, Sadie and Charles would all be more approachable. Sadie and Abigail are the most likely ones to rat. Sadie has no problems after the gang is destroyed getting a job as a bounty hunter (using her real name too) despite her being involved in lots of the gangs activities. Abigail would be more likely to rat to save Jack and John. Personally I lean much more heavily on Sadie being the rat. Mainly because of the timeline of John's forced career of hunting his former gang associates and Sadie helping kill Micah. It's a pretty good distance from Micah's camp to John's farmstead and in a era where you can't just look up everyone's address them finding John on his ranch is suspicious
@@poseidon3492 I do tend to believe Abigail would be a likely suspect but she has a fairly strong bond with members of the gang outside of Jack and John where she would be more willing to abandon them rather then run away, Sadie has no such recourse. Also Sadie being much more violent then even Micah would make her a good candidate for it aswell. edit: for clarity, Micah shows no regard for civilians but doesn't go out of his way to look for other gangs while Sadie does but Sadie doesn't hurt Civillians. Sadie does more harm then she avoids
I love the effort u put into this theory, it’s clear u put time and effort into this and I really appreciate that. But I have to say a few things, first off, Javier never wanted to save John because he was too loyal to Dutch, and Dutch didn’t want to save John. In his eyes that’s betrayal. Javier is the most loyal, tho that ended up being a bad thing in the end. John being the rat is interesting but flawed, would rockstar jeopardize the reputation of the original red dead redemption by making John the rat? No they wouldn’t but to add to that u say when john left the gang and came back he might’ve been in contact with the Pinkertons, which is interesting, even I thought about that but I don’t think that’s true, like when u say john tipped them off about the blackwater job, Micah had fallen for a scam, remember in chapter 4 when Lenny hears about a stage coach job but ends up being a set up? That’s what I think the blackwater job was, a set up and Micah was too stupid to realize. It was a trap for outlaws to rob it and then be caught by the Pinkertons, why is there so much money on the bout? Well probably because it was a real shipment of money but the Pinkertons were still there in case somebody tried to rob it, and the van der linde gang fell for it. Micah wasn’t running with Dutch all those years between story, when Dutch walked away from Arthur he was really walking away from everything, only in 1907 they met up again to get the blackwater money, and Dutch kills Micah because Dutch realized his mistake and he has too much of an ego to let Micah destroy his gang, anyway I still liked the video and you have a new subscriber 👍🏼
you should to focus on conversations in beaver H fight, Edgar Ross goes and says where is Dutch ?brought him and kill him, kill them all, and if you use the free camera you find Micah Bell killing a lot of the Pinkerton in front of them, and he shouting on Dutch to escape, and you will see Dutch and Micah and the rest are hiding under a hill And when you open the map, you will not find a red mark at Micah, and when you choose to return for the money here a yellow spot appears on the map, indicating that Micah and Arthur returned from the same way and their goal is the same as money, Arthur returned to take the money, but Micah returned by order of Dutch, so they met at the cave The dialogue took place, and Micah is angry at Arthur for having separated from Dutch willingly and wants money, so he sees him as a traitor. Arthur sees Micah a traitor because of the saying of the manipulative fool Milton (listen to his conversations at the lake with Arthur and listen to his friends in Shady Belle what they say about him) and the only survivor three times is abigail ,She was not sudden reaction to the mention of the name Micah Bell ,she was ready to betray before (where was Jack when Milton came to Lakay) Micah bell went out himself and killing and slaughtering in the pinkerton, abigail steal Dutch's key without his knowledge and without knowledge of Miss Susan.Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..On the mountain and in the cave he went and left Arthur to grapple with death alone..dutch bear a black heart that is not merciful and is covered with his pride and greatness and honey tongue.
I don't claim to be the guru of this game's plot, but during my second playthrough I've had this thought that pre-Guarma rat is Trelawny. He's in a good position for it, he's close to the leaders of the gang, is not a part of the camp, so he can move freely, and eveyone in the gang see him as a friend. And yet, Trelawny seems to always be where the gang is, turning up in a convinient way. I know it is not that consistent with the Grand Korrigan heist, but on his mission to save Shaun (he gave a tip to the gang about that), everyone is met with an unusually big amount of bounty hunters in the area, which led me to believe it was a trap. The fact that Trelawny disappeared even before the action really began also points to it a bit. Then he tips Dutch on the Grey/Braithwaite business, which goes way down south for the gang. Can't say much about the bounty hunter situation, except for one thing: Trelawny goes to live with the gang to Clemens Point, so he obviously knows where the gang is. And soon after the family feud and the assault on Braithwaite manor, Milton and Ross go to the camp to strike a deal with the gang! Saint Denis and the Grand Korrigan seem to be a bit out of order in this theory, but it is bound to have caused some type of reaction among the top layer of the society. And I can't say anything about why Trelawny stuck around in Beaver Hollow. However, I have a feeling Trelawny tipped Dutch off to several big "jobs" that all go sideways due to how dangerous they are, and it's done for a purpose. Sean rescue mission looked like a trap to lure some of the gang in to capture or kill them, then the Grey/Braithwaite thing might have tried to do the same thing, or it could be an instigation of war, because both families have done questionable things and nothing could be done about this legally (I mean, Rhoades's sheriff is a Grey!), so Milton could have planned to take care of the old country folk by Dutch's gang. And the Grand Korrigan seems to pin the gang to a hit on the elites of the state. Long story short, Trelawny led the gang to different jobs and ideas which are effectively pinned on Dutch and the gang for ease of legal procedures. Why does he do that? Well, Trelawny is a conman, and is caught on his scams which easily could send him to prison or even to hang. So, maybe, when he's been caught on something (maybe even when sheriff Grey took him in for the gold) Milton made him an offer, somewhat similar to John in RDR 1, to undermine the gang, and in return, Trelawny's crimes are swept under the rug and his family in Saint Denis (easily within the reach of local authorities) is safe and sound.
![Why Micah Bell is Rockstar's most hated character [SPOILERS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ky_pHTZcHvI/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why Micah Bell is Rockstar's most hated character [SPOILERS]](/img/tr.png)
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
+ I forgot to mention something in my video that would prove that Dutch wasn't lying in the end. If Dutch would lie about not being able to save John then why didn't Javier say a thing? He was Arthur's friend and he was there when they tried to save John from the patrol. He couldn't even point a gun at Arthur in the end so I think that he could've tried to reason Bill fro example to go to Arthur's side but he didn't. It's not a 100% proof but it makes you think a bit.
@Aisosa Odia Or that
@Aisosa Odia I think we will never know
Im sorry for this but in 1899 jack its four years old soo john dont return to camp at 1890 maybe im 1895 and micab wasnt there when john returned just a lot of years later
@@Bithe_Get I'm sorry but I don't really understand what you want to say
@@Bithe_Get For once I need a translator on the RUclips comment section.
Micah wasn’t running alone with Dutch for 6 years. Micah said that they had recently reunited to retrieve the money in Blackwater.
Dutch no longer cared about the Blackwater Money. His true intention was to kill Micah which is why he told John when John asked what he was doing there.. "Same as you as I suppose".
6 months they say
@Greg's Holy Legs Not really. There's two general theories on Micah: 1. Micah was working for the Pinkertons the entire time given the Blackwater setup and the failed Saint Denis Bank heist. 2. Micah was working for Milton after returning from Guarma. I think Micah could have dropped the hammer at any point in time on Dutch. By Chapter 6, Dutch states that he retrieved their money from Shady Belle, and they almost had enough now to leave. When Dutch confronts Cornwall in Chapter 6, he demands $10k and a ship to get his friends out of there. Micah states - more than once, how they need to get rid of the dead weight, bringing this up in Chapter 4 during the stagecoach robbery and again in Chapter 6. What is his motivation to rat? Wouldn't he try to get the entire gang to swing? Is he ratting just so he can get money (Blackwater money, Shady Belle money in Beaver Hallow, etc.) and have Dutch arrested? I don't think so because he was more than willing to leave during Chapter 6 with the Cornwall mission, and Micah kills Pinkertons as he runs off. I just don't see his motivations. Bill Williamson has more of a reason to betray Dutch than Micah. There's talk in Chapter 5 that he spilled the beans to someone (possibly Pinkerton spy) about the gang's hideout location after they return from Guarma. There's the fact that you can catch him stealing from the camp funds and donation box, and then there's his opening dialogue with Marston in RDR1: "Now I'm in charge! No more Dutch - and no more you!"
I was just about to write that too!
My friend this proves even more that micah isn't a rat think about it micah recently helped Dutch get the money from Blackwater and they SUCCEEDED no pinkertons showed up they got the money and got away with it. But when john was in the gang or Abigail or molly there robberies would always be a setup so when all the other members of the gang are gone and theres no one to rat they succeed in getting money this just proves that micah isn't a rat because if he was he would have told the pinkertons that dutch was going back to retrieve the money from Blackwater
I thought that for a while, but I've switched to another theory. Dutch has something to do with Micah's gang breaking (with his grampa, his father and his brother). The only two things we find at Micah's hideout is Dutch's wanted poster, with no picture, so Micah only kept his face AND a newspaper clip of probably his first murder he did at 17 with his father. I don't think Dutch is aware of it, and Micah planned everything he did just to get in the gang and destroy it from the inside. In Strawberry, when he's in jail, it seems he doesn't want to die at all, but he risks his life only to get his guns back, he rarely risks his life like that. What's written on the guns : Vengeance is Hereby Mine. What vengeance...? And when John kills him at the end, he simply shrugs as he dies, suddenly he doesn't care about dying..? He was a snake from the start, Dutch killed his father, and he's only in for revenge. He won, he broke the gang.
Damn I've never heard about this
Wait... Dutch killed Micah's father? This is never mentioned.
@@trustmepalimthatguy3052 Games are like movies, there's no useless detail. Explain the Vengeance is Hereby Mine on his guns...? He even risked his life to get those guns back, not something he does often. Which means it's highly important for him. Vengeance for what...? That's why he dies laughing, he won, he broke their gang.
@@micahbellonline9462 those guns are Micah's only belongings that matter to him, despite being a rather modern pair of revolvers (at the time of the game around 10 years old) they are incredibly worn from heavy use
@@fallout0624 Why the Vengeance is Hereby mine then...? For cuteness...? It doesn't mean it belongs to his father, it's just my theory, maybe he had this graven after someone close to him was killed, who knows. The revolvers are important to him not just because he kills with it, he could always use other revolvers, it's because of what they represent.
I honestly think Micah was just an impulsive wild card, I believe there was no rat because the gang was going downhill anyways and the fact that the Pinkerton's was chasing them only made things worse for the group
I've heard this theory before and to be honest I like it the most
Also, why did it take the pinkertons so long to attack Beaver Hollow? If Micah was feeding them information I feel they would’ve made their move much sooner rather than allowing the gang to keep causing damage and chaos and killing army recruits. It could also be for sake of story but tbh Micah being a “rat” just felt like it was thrown in last minute for some reason even tho the story could’ve progressed the same since Micah was already a hated member before his betrayal
@@josephstalin2606 I believe the Pinkertons were doing shady Detective work by feeding false information to members of the group, for example I think they did talk to Molly and asked her incriminating questions leading her to belive she was involved with something that wasn't true or unrelated that's why she confessed to Dutch saying she told them everything which lead to her death. Causing even more tension within the group, they possibly did the same to Arthur when they said Micah was feeding them information. But I do have a theory that John might have been the informant because in the original he was working with Edgar Ross and there was that scene that the Pinkerton found them look directly at John and said "and who might you be" in which John replied with an alias that tells me they've met before and are pretending not to know each other. John was with them during the Blackwater Massacre how could they not know him when they background checked everyone involved so they knew about Javeirs roots in Mexico and So your telling they didn't know about John's affiliation with Dutch?
@@poseidon3492 Well john is a rat in rdr1 so its possible he was a rat in rdr2
@@530Issa well , john's not a rat in rdr1. He killed javier , bill and dutch who left him and his wife for dead so he wasnt affiliated with them anymore.
A second rat: It should be highlighted that during the train robbery in Pouring Forth Oil, a huge posse of lawmen show up almost as soon as the robbery begins. John makes a comment to Arthur that someone "must have tipped off the law." Micah does not have to be in camp and can be locked up in Strawberry, so this implies he has absolutely no idea of John's plan - but Abigail does and so do all of the other gang members present. This mission definitely implies there is another rat.
Abigail's (and possibly John's) motivations: Blackwater was 100% a setup. Before this, the Pinkertons, bounty hunters, and law were bearing down on the gang. John, since Chapter 2, confronts Dutch with his doubts and his speculation that Dutch had lost it. Watch the camp dialogue between them and you may also infer that Dutch seems a bit uncertain of John - at least of his loyalty. John doubts Dutch and the entire point of running as a gang which appears again in Chapter 3, Chapter 4, and Chapter 6 through camp dialogue and mission dialogue. Abigail and John have the single most important reason to leave the gang and run from their pursuers: Jack. By the time RDR1 rolls around, John is working for the previous Pinkertons to hunt down the remainder of his gang members minus Charles, Sadie, Karen, Pearson, etc. John literally kills the two people who actually did go back and try to save him: Bill and Javier. Whether or not he or Abigail were the rats is questionable - but it's clear John wanted out as early as Chapter 2 in RDR2.
Final thoughts: If John and Abigail were ratting to the Pinkertons individually or collectively it comes from the most logical perspective: saving their child and family. I don't have an issue with it as most do - and by RDR1 John is literally hunting his former brothers in arms - by choice or not, he's definitely a turncoat by then.
I highly doubt John was the rat. He wouldn’t snitch on his own job and then continue to gun them down like it’s nothing. Abigail on the other hand is more likely, but at the same time the gang, mostly Dutch, had a tendency to underestimate their enemies and when they try playing them, they make it super obvious. Like Arthur said, they got sloppy and now that they caught all that attention in Blackwater they are always bound to fail since they are being closely watched/hunted so they don’t really need a rat. By the end of chapter 3 they had done enough damage to seal their fate
To be fair Dutch left him to die once, then did it again. Not only that Dutch is a father figure to John. If it were me I'd be pissed too and questioning his choices.
In RDR1 John wouldn't be a turncoat they weren't a gang anymore and hadn't been for years. The difference between the rest of them and John is John had a lot more to lose. Even when Jonn was questioning Dutch he was still loyal, went on missions that nearly got him killed more than once. Micha was the newest addition had had the least investment. He is also a very selfish tool who would sell out his mother to save himself.
No the gang turned on John he’s not a turncoat.
@@jwomackandcheese73I doubt that last part
Even Rockstar shows you he is a rat. When you're up on the mountain in the American Venom mission and walk straight towards the shack, a rat is crossing your way before the cutscene begins. Subtle indication that Micah is the rat.
Damn I never noticed it
Nah that’s just Rockstar being Rockstar. John was the rat, I believe Arthur would forgive him
@@recondogohome360 Why should John the rat?
@@ANNEKE1999 Brother, anything I would tell you would be in this video. So I guess re-watch the video lol I had a VERY hard time understanding the dude, literally turned on the Captions lmao. Yea man I 100% believe John was the rat. It all makes since you me but this isn’t officially from Rockstar so you are totally okay to think Micah is the rat.
@@ANNEKE1999 Rockstar wouldn't leave a bomb like that unresolved. It was Micah.
Crazy thing is I always liked Micah at the start of the game. Yeah he was a asshole but I liked his devil may care attitude and his love for the action. He was even one of the best gunslingers in the gang. But at the end you obviously dislike him. But this video gives a new perspective on the situation. Maybe Milton just said Micah bell to divide the gang but who knows.
I didn't like him so much to be honest although I like Trevor who had a similar attitude. Yeah who knows
I always felt the same way. If there was an option to join him and Dutch against John I’d prob do it in a dishonour play through. Glad I ain’t the only one
@ProGamer These guys are just trying to come off as detectives with a new insane theory that clearly don't have any sense...
@ProGamer because Milton is not stupid and if it was true what he said than he would never give that kind of information to someone from the gang, especially not to Arthur but he would know that Arthur isn't the smartest and that information was passed down from John to the Pinkertons if indeed he was the rat and told them everything they needed to know instead of Micah who wouldn't have enough information on them to be the rat
@Daniel Robert that's the thing he could have killed Arthur before or after he said something to him but he didn't even when he had his gun pointed as his head but he didn't shoot, the reason could be that he didn't tell Arthur the truth
Your theory makes sense except one thing:
In the final mission, pinkertons are shooting at John. And somehow, when Arthur is shooting at them and Micah arrives, they do not shoot at Micah. And somehow, dutch is able to just go away after Arthur is death. Also Dutch's side was not pursuited, we know that because there was so much pinkertons chasing Arthur and John while Dutch could also chase them and shoot them.
Excuse me when I tell you that you did not focus on conversations in this task, Edgar Ross goes and says where is Dutch ?brought him and kill him, kill them all, and if you use the free camera you find Micah Bell killing a lot of the Pinkerton in front of them, and he shouting on Dutch to escape, and you will see Dutch and Micah and the rest are hiding under a hill And when you open the map, you will not find a red mark at Micah, and when you choose to return for the money here a yellow spot appears on the map, indicating that Micah and Arthur returned from the same way and their goal is the same as money, Arthur returned to take the money, but Micah returned by order of Dutch, so they met at the cave The dialogue took place, and Micah is angry at Arthur for having separated from Dutch willingly and wants money, so he sees him as a traitor.
Arthur sees Micah a traitor because of the saying of the manipulative fool Milton (listen to his conversations at the lake with Arthur and listen to his friends in Shady Bell what they say about him) and the only survivor three times is abigail ,She was not sudden reaction to the mention of the name Micah Bell ,she was ready to betray before (where was Jack when Milton came to Lakay) Micah bell went out himself and killing and slaughtering in the pinkerton, abigail steal Dutch's key without his knowledge and without knowledge of Miss Susan.Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..On the mountain and in the cave he went and left Arthur to grapple with death alone..dutch bear a black heart that is not merciful and is covered with his pride and greatness and honey tongue.Blind man Cassidy explained the traitor by the emergence of his truth as the devil making sacrifice in fields surrounded by fire and flesh, and this is the oil field mission of Cornwall in the mission of my last son.
@@soonmoon2288 You said a lot of things that make sense, but also a lot of things that I do not understand, mainly because you were talking only about the low honor ending where Arthur goes for the money, which is ending I've never experienced.
@@user-yo4bo5ww2y Also, in the high honor on the mountain, you will find that they all followed the same path and the same pattern, and there are loud humming sounds that you will hear at the hiding place of dutch in the mountain.
@@soonmoon2288 illiterate fool
@@justice_of_RUclips Your channel is full of dislikes..you're just big fool...Your presence has been blocked
Micah is an obvious untrustworthy villain from the beginning. It's too obvious. It's like if he actually was the traitor than one would have to be blind and completely gullible to not see that he is the rat. He just seems like the perfect patsy.
Imagine if they release rdr 3 as another prequel and they finally reveal that John was always the rat, not Micah.
That would be epic😳
@@poseidon3492 That would be such a mind fuck. I mean Micah is definitely evil and a negative influence for the gang but him not being the rat would be a real plot twist.
@@abstractfactory8068 it would be the craziest twist in a videogame franchise
I doubt they’ll do another rdr and if they do they’ll probably either make it about adult Jack or an entirely new story
@@josephstalin2606 I'm more interested in an entire new story and new city as location
My theory is that there might not be even a rat in the gang in the first place and pinkertons were making shit up just to confuse the gang and disassemble them so they could fight each other in order to weaken the gang and Pinkertons probably expected or are smart enough to locate gangs heist plans.
That's also interesting
There is a fairly intriguing case for Abigail being the pre-Guarma rat, but it falls apart at some key places.
Spoilers ahead for pretty much the whole game.
The broad strokes of the theory are as follows: John left the gang for over a year when Jack was born. Then he came back. Now that he is back and has started taking a role in Jack's life as his father, Abigail wants John to leave the outlaw life. To this end she has sold out the rest of the gang during the ferry job in exchange for special consideration for John. If Dutch is in jail, John would be free to leave the gang forever and settle down, say, on a farm west of Blackwater or something.
Points in favor: John somehow slipped out of the ferry job even though he was surrounded at one point. He even says that he doesn't know how he got out of there without being captured. Several other members of the gang weren't so lucky, either getting killed or captured.
Once the gang slips away from blackwater Abigail insists Arthur spend some time with Jack, which is what leads to Agent Milton first approaching Arthur by the the river bank with an offer to sell out Dutch. This offer, and the fact that the Pinkertons know where they are is part of what pushes the Gang to run further east.
Things get kicked up a notch by Chapter 3 when Jack getting kidnapped, which causes Abigail to only focus on getting her son back. But once he is returned in Chapter 4, she tips off the pinkertons to the St Dennis bank job. While Hosea is caught during the distraction phase of the plan, Abigail 'slipped away' even though she was with him. And then during the ambush John is captured alive, despite the law being willing to gun down the rest of the gang on sight. This is because of Abigail once again making a deal to keep John safe.
Presumably during the Guarma episode Abigail and Jack are stuck with the gang, as Sadie is keeping everyone together, and unable to go collect John from the feds as Dutch and the rest of the heavy hitters of the gang are still in the wind, so they feds would not see the bargain as complete.
Now, once the gang does get all back together After Chapter 5, the feds turn around and machine gun up the whole hideout, putting Jack and Abigail at risk (along with the rest of the gang) which just might be the nail in the coffin for the Abigail/feds alliance.
In any case, at this point the Feds would start leaning on Micah as the rat instead of Abigail. Although, there might be one last meeting when she tells them off. This would explain how she somehow knows that "there's talk of hanging John!" It would be completely in character for Agent Milton to tell her that John was on his way to the gallows if she suddenly decided to stop helping the Pinkertons after they fired a gatling gun at Jack.
Finally, Abigail kills Agent Milton before he can spill the beans about who the rat was before Guarma.
Good theory. Only one problem. During the Saint Denis bank robbery, why was Micah was wearing all white when everyone else had regular tux?
@@alexcasares5943 because he didn't have a black one......?....duh..
That doesn't really make sense. If Abigail was the rat, this would put John and Jack in danger, unless she told them about it. If she did tell them, then John would be angry because remember, John was loyal and Abigail was a wh.ore. Also, Jack is a kid, so he would've ratted Abigail.
Honestly parts of it and the motivations make a lot of sense, but it can’t be true for one simple reason. When Arthur is trying to rescue Abigail, Milton absolutely would’ve told him that Abigail was responsible for the gang’s downfall. It wouldn’t make sense for him to not mention this and instead tell him that Micah ratted after guarma (which would be pretty inconsequential in comparison)
Adding onto one of many doubts to this theory;
Abigail loved Hosea. She had a very, very close relationship with him. Almost like a father/grand father sort of relationship. I doubt she would be so willing to leave him to die - I suspect Hosea likely sacrificed himself so she could escape. Because, remember, Hosea was terminally ill, and knew he didn’t have much longer left. Therefore it would make sense for him to want Abigail to live on, raise Jack, and marry John properly. Have a better life than he did, similar to how Arthur felt for John towards the end of the game.
Finally you understand
Finally you can get justice
Damn
@@kyethebeast9931 Yep
XD i love how just some random guy changed his logo and name to micah bell just to comment on this vid
Hi legendary Rat
I still think that micah is the traitor because the game is just built that way but your theorie makes sense, and if its true it might become one of the biggest plot twists ever
Yeah that would be epic
But the big plot twist is already that micahs the rat it would dumb for a double plot twist.
@@Gnompus how would that be dumb????? A second plot twist would just make the story better.
@@leonardodavinci3774 nah at that point it’s a bit cheesy, like M Night Shamalayn level shit. Just a bit annoying
@@Gnompus I disagree
I personally think that Micah liked Arthur a lot until he got sick then he thought he was just weak and sick and didn't wanna be friends anymore
Yeah that makes sense or maybe even earlier
More like try to gain his trust so he could backstab him that's what he did with Dutch but I do like this Siri I find it cool
@@CustodialRuby58 he wanted him to be in his gang I think
@@ZeloraYT yeah Dutch wanted him to be in his gang because Micah saved his life in a bar fight but Dutch was also trying to sell gold and throughout the story all Micah seems to care about is the blackwater money he's always pestering Dutch about it and always complaining that Dutch and hoses are the only ones that know where it is so you know
This video is almost perfect. With a heavy emphasis on "Almost".
You nearly convinced me, but there was this one factor you overlooked.
Why would Milton tell Arthur that Micha was the rat when Milton was sure he had Arthur in his paws?
It wasn't like he about to die and in order to deliver the final blow and dissemble the gang from the inside he said that it was Micha, to plant the seed of confusion and chaos.
He had Arthur at literal gunpoint, unless he was sure that Arthur was going to escape, which I don't think is likely considering he was second away from shooting him in the head.
I don't know how much he loved his job, but I'm sure as shit he wasn't ready to die to bring in a gang already in shambles. It makes no sense for him to give this information to Arthur when he was sure Arthur wasn't going away from his grasp.
That's a good point. I must've forgotten to say that but the message was not for Arthur but for Abigail.
You see the deal was to get John and his family out which includes Abigail.
Milton simply told that so that Abigail would NEVER even think about John having business with the law.
@@poseidon3492 ...Problem with that would be that, chances are, she would've known regardless. If John is to get his family out with the help of Pinkertons, Pinkertons... Would've get them, for him. She would've learned, even if afterwards. To Miltons knowledge, she was tied up. He wouldn't know she was about to shoot him. Arthur was already sickly/loosing battle, and Sadie was tied up as well, so she wouldn't have done jack shit.
Unless John made it specific that she and Jack weren't meant to know. But that is a heavy stretch, not sure if there would be evidences on that.
milton lied to plant doubt in arthurs mind so he would go back to camp and confront micah(who milton knew arthur hated) micah isnt a rat i cant believe that people trust what milton of all people says
There were other people in the room to hear what he said and sow seeds of doubt. Also with Arthur arriving unexpectedly maybe he considered they might escape yet again
by milton saying that he is the rat it plants a prominent seed of doubt in aurthers mind wich , as milton intended , led to the breakdown of the gang
Every suspect from the gang in RDR 2 timeline has their own pros and cons, and sometimes, it makes everything makes no sense. But this thing is why this story in RDR series is so great
Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..On the mountain and in the cave he went and left Arthur to grapple with death alone..dutch bear a black heart that is not merciful and is covered with his pride and greatness and honey tongue.Blind man Cassidy explained the traitor by the emergence of his truth as the devil making sacrifice in fields surrounded by fire and flesh, and this is the oil field mission of Cornwall in the mission of my last son.
Makes some sense... and I said some because I don't think Dutch didn't care about Hosia. Hosia was like a brother to him and a counsler as well, before any plan Dutch talked to Hosia. And also, he felt very sad when Hosia died in Sain Denis.
@@q8spiderman01 *hosea
I dont think there was a rat(before gwarma) I think its a red haring to get you in the head of the gang. They WERE the best gang but innovation cought up. They had so much faith in dutch that they couldn’t believe some detective could out think him. Basically there is no rat, everyone was convinced there was to the point it made the players think so too.
I still expect it to be molly. Milton didn't know she died and probably promised her amnesty and a chance to get lost. She regretted her decision or wanted to give dutch a piece of her mind one last time.
Milton blaming Micah was a strategic move to divide the gang further in a way molly knew would work.
I don't think that it's Molly
I mean the agents did pick him up. But I think at first he didn’t want to, then he wanted to change. Which in a way is worse...
When Arthur called Micah out before their final fight, he shouted "You rat" at him. Micah didn't even deny it then because they were alone, but replied "I'm a survivor, Black Lung". It's basically a confession.
Makes sense
Maybe, he saying that he's a survivor is him talking about the event after Guarma. He's a survivor, bcs he wants to survive from Milton
@@thorsal6208 Maybe
@@thorsal6208 lmfao, you're joking right?
Exactly. Was going to cite this. He admits to it. And he had Dutch’s wanted poster with the reward on it in the remains of his old camp. There’s a reason for that.
Micah is playing the long game. Like he says to Strauss “There’s nothing as pleasurable as shooting someone in the back who thinks you like him.”
They mentioned in the paper on the Blackwater Massacre that the law had received a tip-off. I think, considering Milton mentions that Micah has only allegedly been feeding them intel since post-Caribbean, it's possible there were more than one rat. I think Micah was ratting on the gang, but I think there was another, Trelawny. The guy has the ability to come and go as he pleased, giving him ample time to fill the Pinkertons in, which completes the "When". Arthur makes it very clear that he would sell the gang out to save himself in "Magicians For Sport" which gives him the "How". Finally the gang goes down hill after the failed Saint Denis bank job, and it's a little suspicious how Trelawny seems to leave camp just before it went down. Arthur describes Trelawny main skill as stringing people along just enough, I think the casino boat job was just a stunt to make him seem trustworthy before taking off so that the gang wouldn't go after him. Sometimes the right answer can be the most obvious one. I think Micah was a rat thought the period Milton mentioned, which just happened to be after Trelawny left the gang (he doesn't show up after Gurma). The coincidence is way too perfect, Trelawny just happened to leave for good after Micah started snitching, both of them were rats.
This makes actually a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing it ;-)
trelawny is still in camp after guarma at beaver hollow
I think john is the rat and maybe john do not mention arthur in rdr1 because he feel guilty
i think the next game will take place before blackwater massacre and then our main character would see his/hers redemption by killed by john. after seeing or solving john was the rat who working for pinkertons. Therefore, that explains why john is killed rdr1 without his redemption; he was a rat afterall. I would be so pissed to see john was the rat all along, but this shit is crazy and wild and makes sense. It looks like game of thrones shit not gonna lie. and its amazing plot twist.
1) Micah met Dutch at 1898 and rides with the gang for 6 months. It is mentioned in the game. Also, after Arthur dies, the game jumps forward 8 years in 1907.
2) John wasn't the rat. John dissapeared back then, but, if he wanted to bring the Pinkertons to the gang, he would be able to do it all this time. He had all the time he wanted.
3) John and Arthur haven't got the best relationship in the game, they become "friends-brothers" in the end of the game, after Arthur gets sicker from TB and starts making better descisions.
4) Milton and Ross may have found the gang cause Micah. Remember when Micah said that he will go back only with peace offering? He just dissapeared and shortly after, the 2 agents found Arthur near the gang
5) Arthur praised John for the train robbery because it was good idea. Nothing more, nothing less. Arthur wanted to rob the train and take the money. Also, if John was betraying them, why would he go into fire fight with the law with only Arthur and Sean there?
6) In the blackwater robbery and failure, it was Micah who pursued Dutch to rob the boat and suddenly it went downhill. Why? Pinkertons swamped the area all of sudden. Do you remember when it happened again? With the Saint Denis bank. And Micah was there too and also wore a completely different outfit than the others (pure white)
7) John was arested 1 time and got shoot down another 2. Why would Pinkertons shoot down their information giver? He was also shoot in the blackwater robbery.
8) Milton and Ross were hired by Cornwell because the train robbery and John wasn't there, he was damaged and was resting. So this is why he may didn't know his name.
9) It is easy to see why Abigail run away, she didn't look threating at all. Also, Abigail wasn't an outlaw, she has no bounty iirc. She was just there, who would suspect her? She didn't even handle a gun. Again, we see Micah there looking completely different that the others. While John looks the same. You think Pinkertons could recognize who John was and not shoot him? He was captured because he was alone. Milton killed Hosea because he knew that it would make the gang mad and they could make mistakes. Lenny was shoot down because he was running with the others, they couldn't just arrest him because it would be pointiless.
10) Dutch was manipulated to death by Micah. Dutch also suspected Arthur as a traitor, and Arthur did nothing more than killing Pinkertons and defending the gang. Dutch let Arthur to die and he would have died if Eagle Flies didn't save him with the cost of his life.
11) You have a point about Abigail. But Abigail also shoot Milton and saved Arthur. Why would she do that? If she really wanted to betray the entire gang, she would simply let Arthur die and then kill or simple let Milton live. It would be easier for her, with Arthur dead, Milton would have to deal with less gang members (their best shooter is dead anyway) and it would be easier to turn them in. Also, John started shooting Pinkertons during this mission. Plus, in RDR1, John clearly dissrespects Ross and Pinkertons, why would his behavior change?
12) They didn't arrest John at train robbery because they thought he died. Why would they stop to look for someone who got shoot by a rifle and let the train go away with the money and all the gang members (including Dutch) to run away?
13) Micah was also the guy who almost got Arthur killed because (again) he persuaded Dutch to meet up with Colm. All this was a set up trap to get Arthur killed but he failed. He just waited the right time to kill/attack Arthur, because he was the only one who could have killed him in a blink of an eye.
14) This is the main point, why would John even care to kill Micah if he himself was the rat? He could have dissapeared and simple move on with his life. Why would he go after Micah with Charles and Sadie? Also why didn't he turn in Charles when he found him at Saint Denis?
15) Micah wasn't with Dutch all this time. Dutch must have arrived around the same time as John to get revenge. He clearly said it "Same as you". Micah couldn't turn in Dutch there anyway, Milton was dead, Ross would be hard to communicate with and other Pinkertons may didn't know his name. He also was in trouble before you met him (Cleet stated that), so he must have been hiding from the law.
16) Also, why would Milton even lie about Micah? It makes no sense, he could kill Arthur because he was weak. Other people there was Abigail and Sadie. If Abigail was the rat, why would she shoot him (like i said) and what would come out after that? Sadie was also arrested and mostly would be executed. So Milton claiming that Micah is the rat and lie about this makes no sense.
17) Finally, John was with the gang for a very long time and the gang was surviving. It went downhill after Micah joined. Micah even somehow admited he was the rat, when he said "I am a survivor" or "You are the vulture", he didn't deny about being rat when he was fighting Arthur and he was trying to convince Dutch to go back to Blackwater to take the money even when their were wanted as "Dead or Alive". He started claiming he wasn't the rat only when Dutch was in front of him. Even at the final mission, there is a rat comming out of Micah's hideout.
PS: Sorry for the huge text, hope you will read it with enjoyement :P
Very well said. I think it's also worth mentioning how Micah had a Dutch wanted poster at his little campsite (forgot the mission where you could find his camp, I think it was after the mission where you save him from the jail). So this means Micah was planning to betray the gang from the start.
While the theory of Micah not being the rat seems interesting, it's just that I feel like the writers had no clear way of saying that Micah snitched out the gang (without any fans thinking he didnt), while still having it so Micah could convince Dutch that Arthur was lying. This is why they added little things such as the rat coming out of his shack, even though rats don't live on snow. It's also why Milton said it straight up to Arthur directly. Again, Milton had no reason to lie, as he was for sure he was going to win. Arthur was weak and sick, and Sadie and Abigail are tied up. He said how Micah snitched as a little goodbye/rub-it-in-your-face sorta thing, before he killed Arthur, so he had no reason to lie about it.
The fact a video game got you to write a fat novel is impressive.
@@susandontdeletemyaccount3863 Could write an entire book about how fucking awesome this game is
On his return from Guarma, he certainly went to Van Horn's salon and looked shabby in front of the people there. They started asking him where he came from and what his name was! Micah talked he came from the Caribbean and never mentioned Guarma and tell his name (and here's his famous name from his father's name, which was known in most states) there was certainly a spy either a prostitute or a man and he wanted money to tell pinkerton (we noticed how the inhabitants of this city are grumpy and poores want money in any way)
but they did not know where the gang settled and did not know that they were in Beaver hollow or lakay. Note that the gang stayed for a long time in Beaverhollow hiding and pinkerton were looking for them. This slight information is what Agent Milton got from van horn residents (the Caribbean Sea and the famous name Micah bell) and he did not say (Guarma) !! milton was not know where they were for that long, so milton used the famous name of Micah Bell and the name of the sea to stir up strife between the gang.
So Micah Bell was never close to Milton, he proved himself to be an outlaw man for life Micah wasn't 1% by side pinkertons and we never saw that, all we saw was face-to-face fighting in front of the public more than once, and he had many opportunities to hand over Dutch and win the money full but he did not.
• ●He was his chance to sell dutch in Saint Denis, but he did not, despite his feeling of danger and death.
•
• ●he was his chance at Lakay to Betray Dutch while he was in his weakest condition, but he did not.
•
• ●he was his golden opportunity to extradite Dutch and betray him or kill him when they came to meet Cornwall and we saw Milton and Edgar Ross, but he did not! instead of that carry out Dutch orders to rob the room and steal Cornwall's bonds for the second time, Dutch killed Cornwall and from there they went out to fight face to face in front of the guards and pinkerton !! And after that, they continued for a period that no one knew about them in Beaver hollow.
•
• ● while The gang goes to sleep was his golden opportunity to annihilate the entire gang, as he did in Strawberry and Rhodes, but he did not. Instead of that we see him sitting around the campfire enjoying by his cigarette.
•
• ● We see him wandering around the camp and calling to stay around the leader dutch and believing in him, and he says( stick with us to the gang members and he said that to Arthur and said only the leader is Dutch, listen to Dutch, leave the doubt), and he did not go out to fight native American people because this is not Dutch's orders but Arthur's orders!
•
• ● pinkerton believed that the gang had become weak after the killing Hosea and Lenny and John's arrest But Micah fed the gang with two outlaws to strengthen the gang, hold together and protect Dutch.
•
• ●The last attack we can see Edgar Ross calling for the annihilation of the entire gang, and these critical moments were Micah's opportunity to turn against Dutch and stand on the side of Pinkerton, but he did not, can saw micah shoot them face to face and escape with Dutch ,micah got a foot injury from shoot pinkerton and became limping when he returned to the cave.
•
• ●At the end and fighting with Arthur, whether on the mountain or at the cave, his golden opportunity was with Dutch by shooting or throwing a knife at him when Dutch turned around his back and walked, and wining by taking the money full for himself, but he did not. Instead of that, He kept ask and begging with Dutch to take the money and escape together in the boat .. All these evidence prove that Micah was not 1% by the pinkerton side and did not join the law as John. Rather, he stayed for several years in the same situation with an outlaw gang until he became an old man outlaw for life.
• ●The poster is old and circulating in Strawberry because it has 1000 for dutch and 5000 for Arthur as he has poster for His Father and himself and Micah likes read and polled in the newspapers. Just like Arthur when he holds posters .There is a poster of Javier in Shady Belle and the whole gang saw him.
•
• ●The arrival of Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham at the end of the second epilogue were just two people who were called from strawberry from the citizens who saw the chaos of Sadie Adler and John Morston and mentioned them the name of John Morston..Here Pinkerton knew that they were still alive and they followed them. Although John concealed his name, but Sadie revealed his name And they were shouting the name of the fame to Micah bell .Here we see that Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham came on a search mission, not a chase and attack and will not stop to followed Milton's killers and Arrest of outlaws.
@@soonmoon2288 First paragraph is 100% speculation. People back there were curious about everything. He never mentioned Guarma because all the shit happened back there would probably get spread and he didn't want to be recognized as someone who caused problems there. The rest about "spy etc" is an assumption. Micah was wanted but not so well known compared to Dutch for example.
They stayed long because they lied low. When they robbed the train at St Denis, they had to leave because they got swamped by Pinkertons sooner. Also doesn't answer my answer : Why would Milton lie to someone who was one shot away from death? The 2 other women were going to die or to jail anyway.
As to why didn't Micah turn in Dutch when he had opportunities : Micah wasn't an idiot. And Micah didn't pick a side either. Micah was someone who could sell his children in order to survive and make money. I will try to explain you what happened. Micah found Dutch, he then wanted to rob the money at Blackwater, he persueded Dutch to do it cause he was planning to turn in Dutch in the right momment and get away with the money + his freedom. But Dutch had an entire gang on his side, if Micah tried anything there, he would end up dead. Anyway, Blackwater fails, they are forced to run away. All this time, Micah is trying two things : 1) get rid of people who are close to Dutch and who don't trust him (Hosea and Arthur), 2) Persude Dutch to go back to Blackwater for the money or even go there alone to retrieve the money. Dutch doesn't trust Micah yet, but when Hosea, Lenny, Sean and others die, Micah can influence Dutch more. So he does, this is why he calls him "leader" all the time but completely desrespects EVERYONE else in the gang, being sexist and rescist. Eventually, he dissapears after Strawberry and you go with him to take some money from a caravan, but Micah never donated anything to the camp (proof is that you can ask gang members if he donated anything). After some time, he keeps licking Dutch's butthole, then we come to St Denis, where the same thing happened. Pinkertons arrived a way to early and Micah was the other one in white outfit to give them signals that he is the traitor between them, in case more members died and only Dutch survive, he could persuade Dutch to tell him where the blackwater money is or to turn him in. But things go wrong, Lenny and Hosea (his golden moment) die and John gets arrested. When they come back from Guarma, Dutch isn't alone, this is why Micah can't do anything yet. Micah doesn't want to turn Dutch in. He first wants Dutch to tell him where the Blackwater money is and then he can turn him in. This is why he never turns him in even if he can, like in the final mission. He knows that staying with Dutch can profit him and he tries his best to earn his trust. And the money from the train were nothing compared to the money from Blackwater. Also, why doesn't he kill them in the camp, you think Micah stands any chance against Arthur, who, with TB he draws faster than him? Add Javier, Bill, Grimshaw, Sadie, Charles and John, if Micah tried to kill anyone in the camp, not only he would die, but even if he didn't die, he would never learn about the Blackwater money and he would lose Dutch forever, which means he would end up wandering alone. He constantly tries to get rid of Arthur (at the Colm meet up for example) and he brings 2 other outlaws to increase his influence and make Dutch trust him more. He kills Pinkertons because he isn't exactly siding with them, he sides with no one. He cares only about himself. Ross also arrived there because Micah was on charge again. Micah was waiting the perfect opportunity now, he had the money for Blackwater and Dutch went to him. Ross was probably waiting for the right moment to meet Micah there so he can arrest Dutch. Ross isn't stupid, in fact he is a very intelligent man. He knew that almost all the gang was dead, with only a few bountry-survivors : Charles, John and Sadie. And i think he knew that John was the best shooter among them, so instead of going after Sadie (who was a bounty hunter anyway) or Charles (who moved to Canada) he chooses to go after John because he could use his family to make him track the others down. Also, Ross went like "searching" someone when he first meets Arthur and later on the camp. He also went like that for John. He isn't the type of guy who shoots everyone. And even Dutch in the end realizes how wrong he was and shoots Micah. He realized that Micah was indeed the rat. All the gang downfall started after Micah joined them.
I mean, Rockstar makes it obvious that Micah was the rat, even his actor hates the character + we see a rat commining out of his hideout at snow, and rats aren't seen in places like that.
Alright, this makes sense. Except one thing.
Why would John go after Micah in American Venom? That makes no sense, Micah got in Dutch’s head and destroyed the gang. So Micah did John’s job already. Why would he be so pissed about it? He was also mad about what Micah did to Arthur. I highly doubt that’s how a guy would act if he was gonna be a rat.
Yes, I know I commented 19 hours ago but this just occurred to me...
Well like I said he could've been under pressure and I think John actually cared about Arthur after what Arthur did for him even though he was a rat doesn't mean that he lost his feelings. In the end I said that mentioning Arthur is therapeutic for John because he didn't wanted to do it. It's similar with Ellie form TLOU 2 where she had trauma and she went for Abby in the end only because she would hope to lose this trauma about Joel and not for real ''revenge''. John maybe hated himself for this and couldn't stop thinking about Arthur so he decided that killing Micah who everyone thought is the rat and who killed Arthur would stop him from hating himself and redeem Arthur. This is a theory and it's not 100% true but it sounds fitting to me. What do you think?
@@poseidon3492 Well Arthur did say “Revenge is a fools game”
@DeR_AnDeRe31er If you think so
Because of money, ofcourse
John was paid to betray Dutch in exchange for his family. By Pinkerton. That's why he joins Sadie as a lawman.
Ok, I'm gonna have to debunk this.
Micah has not been with Dutch for years. He says "All matter of Folks paying Social calls. "
This means all kinds of people are visiting him.
Then Dutch comes out. By having Dutch coming out straight after Micah saying all kinds of people are visiting him, Rockstar are saying Dutch had recently teamed up With Micah. Micah also says how Dutch and Micah are teaming up once more. Why would he say that if they have been together for years and did not brake apart for long?
Micah was in fact gonna turn Dutch in. Which is why Ross was at Mount Hagen and was confused to see Micahs corpse. Micah wanted to turn Dutch in to Ross. Micah also offered John to join him so he was probably thinking about turning John in too and Micah also says "I got more men coming, John! "
In Chapter 3, Milton was not pretending to not know John. You said how The Pinkertons have encountered John in Valantine but they were Cornwalls Men not Pinkertons. Having that aside, Milton would Recognise John if he made a deal with him.
The Reason Micah did not care about Abigail being potentially Captured and John did is because Micah only cares about Surviving and Abigail is John's wife after all.
They only Took Abigail as it Tilly said She Took Jack and hid. Plus as Rockstar was making a Prequal, I doubt Rockstar would make John a Rat as this would be so inconsistent with RDR1. In RDR1, John is disgusted to be Working with Ross and is only doing work with him to get his family back
You're right on this one. I made a mistake
@@poseidon3492No Harm Done
In addition to Martin asking who John was.. he didn't even ask who keiren was, cuz he's also new. Why only John?
Trueee
Nice one on John, it wouldn't be the last time he was forced to turn on his friends, as for Micah, ive always thought he wasn't really the rat. Milton would absolutely lie about who was informing them to try and divide the gang.
Thanks
true
And if micah would of ratted the saint denis bank i know the first thing micah would of said : Kill john nd arthur they are dangerous!
And why would John call himself Jim MILTON in the epilogue? Is he in some kind of informal “witness protection” program?
Wouldn’t be a first for Rockstar 😂
Micah bell has golden chances to prove his betrayal, but he did not do anything that indicates his betrayal.
On his return from Guarma, he certainly went to Van Horn's salon and looked shabby in front of the people there. They started asking him where he came from and what his name was! Micah talked he came from the Caribbean and never mentioned Guarma and tell his name (and here's his famous name from his father's name, which was known in most states) there was certainly a spy either a prostitute or a man and he wanted money to tell pinkerton (we noticed how the inhabitants of this city are grumpy and poores want money in any way)
but they did not know where the gang settled and did not know that they were in Beaver hollow or lakay. Note that the gang stayed for a long time in Beaverhollow hiding and pinkerton were looking for them. This slight information is what Agent Milton got from van horn residents (the Caribbean Sea and the famous name Micah bell) and he did not say (Guarma) !! milton was not know where they were for that long, so milton used the famous name of Micah Bell and the name of the sea to stir up strife between the gang.
So Micah Bell was never close to Milton, he proved himself to be an outlaw man for life Micah wasn't 1% by side pinkertons and we never saw that, all we saw was face-to-face fighting in front of the public more than once, and he had many opportunities to hand over Dutch and win the money full but he did not.
• ●He was his chance to sell dutch in Saint Denis, but he did not, despite his feeling of danger and death.
•
• ●he was his chance at Lakay to Betray Dutch while he was in his weakest condition, but he did not.
•
• ●he was his golden opportunity to extradite Dutch and betray him or kill him when they came to meet Cornwall and we saw Milton and Edgar Ross, but he did not! instead of that carry out Dutch orders to rob the room and steal Cornwall's bonds for the second time, Dutch killed Cornwall and from there they went out to fight face to face in front of the guards and pinkerton !! And after that, they continued for a period that no one knew about them in Beaver hollow.
•
• ● while The gang goes to sleep was his golden opportunity to annihilate the entire gang, as he did in Strawberry and Rhodes, but he did not. Instead of that we see him sitting around the campfire enjoying by his cigarette.
•
• ● We see him wandering around the camp and calling to stay around the leader dutch and believing in him, and he says( stick with us to the gang members and he said that to Arthur and said only the leader is Dutch, listen to Dutch, leave the doubt), and he did not go out to fight native American people because this is not Dutch's orders but Arthur's orders!
•
• ● pinkerton believed that the gang had become weak after the killing Hosea and Lenny and John's arrest But Micah fed the gang with two outlaws to strengthen the gang, hold together and protect Dutch.
•
• ●The last attack we can see Edgar Ross calling for the annihilation of the entire gang, and these critical moments were Micah's opportunity to turn against Dutch and stand on the side of Pinkerton, but he did not, can saw micah shoot them face to face and escape with Dutch ,micah got a foot injury from shoot pinkerton and became limping when he returned to the cave.
•
• ●At the end and fighting with Arthur, whether on the mountain or at the cave, his golden opportunity was with Dutch by shooting or throwing a knife at him when Dutch turned around his back and walked, and wining by taking the money full for himself, but he did not. Instead of that, He kept ask and begging with Dutch to take the money and escape together in the boat .. All these evidence prove that Micah was not 1% by the pinkerton side and did not join the law as John. Rather, he stayed for several years in the same situation with an outlaw gang until he became an old man outlaw for life.
• ●The poster is old and circulating in Strawberry because it has 1000 for dutch and 5000 for Arthur as he has poster for His Father and himself and Micah likes read and polled in the newspapers. Just like Arthur when he holds posters .There is a poster of Javier in Shady Belle and the whole gang saw him.
•
• ●The arrival of Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham at the end of the second epilogue were just two people who were called from strawberry from the citizens who saw the chaos of Sadie Adler and John Morston and mentioned them the name of John Morston..Here Pinkerton knew that they were still alive and they followed them. Although John concealed his name, but Sadie revealed his name And they were shouting the name of the fame to Micah bell .Here we see that Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham came on a search mission, not a chase and attack and will not stop to followed Milton's killers and Arrest of outlaws.
Damn you have even more evidence! This really inspires me to do a second part where I add it and try to prove some other things to the people
I’m getting sold on the theory of Micah not being the rat now...
@@poseidon3492 Blind man Cassidy explained the traitor by the emergence of his truth as the devil making sacrifice in fields surrounded by fire and flesh , and this is the oil field mission of the Cornwall in the mission of my last son.
Here's how I think it went off:
Micah got captured after returning from Guarma, after this, Milton offered him a deal to sold the gang, but it was a deal just between Milton and Micah (maybe a few more guys) and not sanctioned by Pinkerton Detective Agency because at that point, after all the chaos the gang caused across the east the pinkertons no longer wanted to arrest, they wanted to kill.
Milton on other hand after all the fail attempts of pursuing Van Der Linde members tought that the best way to destroy the gang was to cause damage from within, so he sent Micah to cause an internal conflict and separate everyone so they could become weaker and they did, half the gang fleet and the rest that were left were already planing to leave, then the Pinkertons striked and finally dissolved the gang.
So Micah's plan was do that one last job in the train, get the dough and get out clean after turning Dutch in.
But Micah plans to flee without any heat were done after Arthur killed Milton so, no deal for him, he turned back to be a wanted criminal on the run.
That sounds logical
If they were captured they'd likely be hung anyway. The possibility of the women being spared.
If he really are not a rat, and Rockstar can nailed this plot twist beautifully, that's gonna be one of the best plot twist in any gaming history
If it is really like it then yeah it would be the greatest plot twist of all time.
Screw your plot twist bull rockstar ain't gonna do this plot twist besides any reasoning???
I deadass would flip shit if they ever did that, it would be the most insane plot twist ever
On his return from Guarma, he certainly went to Van Horn's salon and looked shabby in front of the people there. They started asking him where he came from and what his name was! Micah talked he came from the Caribbean and never mentioned Guarma and tell his name (and here's his famous name from his father's name, which was known in most states) there was certainly a spy either a prostitute or a man and he wanted money to tell pinkerton (we noticed how the inhabitants of this city are grumpy and poores want money in any way)
but they did not know where the gang settled and did not know that they were in Beaver hollow or lakay. Note that the gang stayed for a long time in Beaverhollow hiding and pinkerton were looking for them. This slight information is what Agent Milton got from van horn residents (the Caribbean Sea and the famous name Micah bell) and he did not say (Guarma) !! milton was not know where they were for that long, so milton used the famous name of Micah Bell and the name of the sea to stir up strife between the gang.
So Micah Bell was never close to Milton, he proved himself to be an outlaw man for life Micah wasn't 1% by side pinkertons and we never saw that, all we saw was face-to-face fighting in front of the public more than once, and he had many opportunities to hand over Dutch and win the money full but he did not.
• ●He was his chance to sell dutch in Saint Denis, but he did not, despite his feeling of danger and death.
•
• ●he was his chance at Lakay to Betray Dutch while he was in his weakest condition, but he did not.
•
• ●he was his golden opportunity to extradite Dutch and betray him or kill him when they came to meet Cornwall and we saw Milton and Edgar Ross, but he did not! instead of that carry out Dutch orders to rob the room and steal Cornwall's bonds for the second time, Dutch killed Cornwall and from there they went out to fight face to face in front of the guards and pinkerton !! And after that, they continued for a period that no one knew about them in Beaver hollow.
•
• ● while The gang goes to sleep was his golden opportunity to annihilate the entire gang, as he did in Strawberry and Rhodes, but he did not. Instead of that we see him sitting around the campfire enjoying by his cigarette.
•
• ● We see him wandering around the camp and calling to stay around the leader dutch and believing in him, and he says( stick with us to the gang members and he said that to Arthur and said only the leader is Dutch, listen to Dutch, leave the doubt), and he did not go out to fight native American people because this is not Dutch's orders but Arthur's orders!
•
• ● pinkerton believed that the gang had become weak after the killing Hosea and Lenny and John's arrest But Micah fed the gang with two outlaws to strengthen the gang, hold together and protect Dutch.
•
• ●The last attack we can see Edgar Ross calling for the annihilation of the entire gang, and these critical moments were Micah's opportunity to turn against Dutch and stand on the side of Pinkerton, but he did not, can saw micah shoot them face to face and escape with Dutch ,micah got a foot injury from shoot pinkerton and became limping when he returned to the cave.
•
• ●At the end and fighting with Arthur, whether on the mountain or at the cave, his golden opportunity was with Dutch by shooting or throwing a knife at him when Dutch turned around his back and walked, and wining by taking the money full for himself, but he did not. Instead of that, He kept ask and begging with Dutch to take the money and escape together in the boat .. All these evidence prove that Micah was not 1% by the pinkerton side and did not join the law as John. Rather, he stayed for several years in the same situation with an outlaw gang until he became an old man outlaw for life.
• ●The poster is old and circulating in Strawberry because it has 1000 for dutch and 5000 for Arthur as he has poster for His Father and himself and Micah likes read and polled in the newspapers. Just like Arthur when he holds posters .There is a poster of Javier in Shady Belle and the whole gang saw him.
•
• ●The arrival of Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham at the end of the second epilogue were just two people who were called from strawberry from the citizens who saw the chaos of Sadie Adler and John Morston and mentioned them the name of John Morston..Here Pinkerton knew that they were still alive and they followed them. Although John concealed his name, but Sadie revealed his name And they were shouting the name of the fame to Micah bell .Here we see that Edgar Ross and Archer Fordham came on a search mission, not a chase and attack and will not stop to followed Milton's killers and Arrest of outlaws.
@@justice_of_RUclips said this words for yourself
@@justice_of_RUclips In other words you don't have a rebuttal
but when arthur confronted micah why did micah try to kill him? then when they were fighting on the cliff micah says ''I've been waiting to kill u a long time ago'' what i think is dutch and micah was plotting to kill arthur because he was catching on to them thats why all of a sudden dutch and micah are best buddies now micah tried to also let abagail go, lied and said john was dead. and in that oil factory dutch literally watched arthur get captured, then when arthur rescued john dutch got mad because he wanted to let john get hanged thats why john said ''when i got arrested in that bank dutch seen it... i feel like he had a chance to do something be he didnt'' micah plan was to get on dutch's good side sabtoge everything, and at the end he was going to kill dutch but he left him to live because he needed dutch to get that money. micah is just evil but smart. he ratted on the gang, behind dutch's back, and even when arthur confronted micah about ratting, micah didn't even deny it! and then if john really was ratting why did the cops shoot him?
@@north6620 it wasn't the cops that shit John it was the guards that were guarding the train. That's the end of your theory
@@north6620 You understood things in a superficial way..Look what politicians do, then you will understand the nature of Micah.. Micah when he said I have been waiting to kill you for a long time, this means that he saw Arthur separated from Dutch's gang of his own free will, and here he sees him no longer beside Dutch and also he wanted Arthur to be a brother to him instead of his brother Amos, but Arthur was treating him badly So he turned against him..
The Japanese theory explains in depth this,
There is no traitor..but suspicion and internal conflict arose between the gang after the murder of Molly, Dutch and Micah surrounded themselves with the gang members and put them in the forefront. Arthur wanted to clean up his life after he saw civilized progress and the law..so he started recommending his whispers to the members and urging them to engage with life and the law and not Rebellion against civilization.
Or people just like rewriting history because people want more of the story. So some, individuals take it upon themselves to write fan-fic.
imagine in rdr3 we play with micah where we learn that he wasnt even that bad, missunderstood and we find out he never rated anyone out just to end up dying
As Micah says “There’s nothing as pleasurable as shooting a man in the back when he thinks you like him.”
If you think that Micah being nice **when it serves his interests** means anything, you’ve only been easily fooled.
When you go to the mountain to face off with him, a rat crosses your path. That’s so in your face about the truth it’s crazy. It’s the game validating the truth that micah is a rat. Clear as day, he’s a rat. He wasn’t always a rat. After Guarma is when he sold the gang out. Before that, as Arthur says “we don’t need a rat. They know WHO we are and WHERE we are, and what we’re doin” Dutch just doesn’t care anymore and makes calls based on what he wants. He wanted to shoot Cornwall, so he did. He drowned Brontë, he doesn’t give a shit about heat on the gang. Micah is responsible for a whole lot, not just ratting the gang out. That’s the idea, it doesn’t matter if he’s a rat or not, what matters is he’s a manipulative sycophant that destroyed the gang from the inside. So, now that it doesn’t matter, who cares? Hence the rat crossing our path. It’s rockstar going “hey guess what? You were right.”
He asked John who he was because he knew he was someone of importance cuz he's the only other one sitting at the table with Dutch
Damn that actually makes sense
After robbing the train in chapter 2, you can read in the newspaper that the police were tipped off anonymously about the robbery, which is why they arrived so fast with so many
@agentmoron747 I'm late but i feel Cornwall was also tipped off since he calls Dutch out at the end of chapter 2 for robbing his trains.
Y’all are trippin Jack was acting mad sus
😂😂😂
Micah is the rat.
Everything else is just fan theory for video and clicks.
There was no rat. The gang just got sloppier than the town drunk. They constantly brought unnecessary attention down on themselves with their antics. The brawl in Valentine, the river boat job, stealing the dynamite for the bridge. If you return to these towns people recognize Arthur and will even remark on it. It stands to reason other people recognized other gang members too. They didn't keep any kind of low profile at all. They would have been easy to track.
I've heard about his theory too
Another pretty decent one is that Micah was an o’Driscoll
@@patient315 Can you name some proof
@@poseidon3492 I’m not sure I believe that theory but it’s very plausible. Colm and Dutch have clearly had an established rivalry and Colm has clearly shown he’s willing to use dirty tactics (kidnapping Arthur at the meetup). Micah was only riding with the gang for I think a few months by the time the game starts but the Blackwater job was his idea, which went horribly. He mentions a brawl he got in with some O’Driscolls who have no other reason to fight alongside one of Dutch’s guys since they seem to shoot Arthur on sight. Oh yea and the meetup he planned. It’s kind of fishy that Micah sends Arthur up a specific hill where O’Driscolls happen to be at.
I don’t think Micah was an O’Driscoll implant but the theory does have a lot of validity. I’m probably missing more, I just started thinking about it now after reading the comment so I could be completely wrong
Honestly I think they could have just done this to leave some plot holes for people to guess about like if John really is Jack's father or not
Maybe
They say that the excuse is that as soon as Micah joined the gang became unlucky but u could also argue that as soon as John returned they became unlucky
Yes it also makes sense
RDR3 will be Jack Marston finding the truth of the gang and redemption for its honorable members.
Well those weren't pinkertons in valentines, but cornwalls personal hired guns
I would disagree. At the end of the game, in the extra cutscenes it shows Agent Ross looking at Micah’s dead body and being confused. Why would Agent Ross know the exact location of Micah? Micah was probably waiting for the perfect time to turn Dutch in.
Or they were following John's lead and I can't believe that he couldn't turn in Dutch. I mean he was one of the main guys in the gang this time and maybe even more important than Dutch. It would be extremely easy to turn him in this time
@@poseidon3492 for real i just saw a theory that its make more sense but abigail is the rat john would problably not do this but abigail got a eye for changing of live
@@poseidon3492 They were following John’s lead? Sorry but, how is that even possible? Because firstly, John didn’t do any criminal activity in the epilogue for Ross to find out. I might be wrong since I last played this in august.
Excuse me focus on conversations in this task, Edgar Ross goes and says where is Dutch ?brought him and kill him, kill them all, and if you use the free camera you find Micah Bell killing a lot of the Pinkerton in front of them, and he shouting on Dutch to escape, and you will see Dutch and Micah and the rest are hiding under a hill And when you open the map, you will not find a red mark at Micah, and when you choose to return for the money here a yellow spot appears on the map, indicating that Micah and Arthur returned from the same way and their goal is the same as money, Arthur returned to take the money, but Micah returned by order of Dutch, so they met at the cave The dialogue took place, and Micah is angry at Arthur for having separated from Dutch willingly and wants money, so he sees him as a traitor.
Arthur sees Micah a traitor because of the saying of the manipulative fool Milton (listen to his conversations at the lake with Arthur and listen to his friends in Shady Belle what they say about him) and the only survivor three times is abigail ,She was not sudden reaction to the mention of the name Micah Bell ,she was ready to betray before (where was Jack when Milton came to Lakay) Micah bell went out himself and killing and slaughtering in the pinkerton, abigail steal Dutch's key without his knowledge and without knowledge of Miss Susan.Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..
@@susandontdeletemyaccount3863 It's easy to explain. Like I said they had a deal. John would turn in Dutch and in return get Abigail but like we see in the end he just escapes with Abigail without finishing his part of the deal which was capturing Dutch. Like I said he might have been under pressure from Pinkertons side and it makes sense why John just wanted to escape. It also explains why he was on the run all this years after Arthurs death. The Pinkertons were always following him because he didn't do his part of the deal and in the end he got sloppy when he revealed his real name in Blackwater and Strawberry. Plus when he did all this mess with Micah gang and his biggest mistake was settling down and stop running. That's when they got him.
I don't really think he was the rat either. The gang had its worst luck when Molly was alive, and after she died they actually had a lot of success (colm oldrisco dying, getting away with killing Cornwall, and the last train heist was fairly smooth). The only proof Micah was a rat came from Agent Milton, who could be lying. It's pretty likely since the lie fractured the gang in two.
"No dutch, these memes, all theses memes, are cringe dutch! Let me show you some good memes dutch!"
Micah is most hated character of rockstar games... Because he kills rockstar's most loved character that's why it's legendary rat!!!!!!
He definitely is
I mean the most hated rockstar character
The real rat has to be abigail roberts. She kept wanting a normal life, she escapes from the pinkertons, she sends Arthur with her son to get miltion to speak to him, some how John's not killed, nor hanged, she's captured and not hanged either... its defo abigail
even if Micah Wasnt a rat he is still to blame for the downfall of the gang as well as the deaths of pretty much everybody, the biggest one being Arthur Morgan, if Micah never joined then Dutch never would have agreed to the ferry job in black water, meaning they never would have had to escape east over the grizzly's, meaning they never would have ended up in valentine where Strauss would lend money to Thomas Downes, eventually resulting in Arthur collecting from him and contracting TB, every bad thing that happened to the gang is a result of Micah's manipulation of Dutch, as well as Dutch's Naivety and incompetence, that let him be manipulated by someone like Micah, someone who in the early days of the gang he would have despised.
I completely agree with you
Abigail was the rat the entire time she wanted to escape the gang with John and Jack and the gangs saved up money that dutch would keep near camp, and since Milton wants dutch ofcourse Abigail would give him a run down of the members still there what they're doing and their relationships with each other so it makes sense for Milton to blame Micah as the rat to Arthur because Arthur hates Micah and Milton knew it would lead the gang to a falling out and either they kill themselves or it would be easier for Milton to roll in and during the saint Denis robbery Abigail "escape" they take John alive yet shoot Hosea and Lenny who were both defenseless or atleast had weapons holstered where as John is actively shooting Pinkerton's and yet is taken alive why? Because that's Abigail's deal with Milton she gives him the gang only if John jack and Abigail are free and then later she would go get the money you have to take note that Micah is incredibly loyal to dutch and dutch also has all the money including what's in blackwater so why would Micah betray him?
I think the fact that there are so many contradictory theories about the rat proves that this part of the story is not well-written...
Micah being the rat is just weird. His main goal was to retreive the blackwater money, and for that he needs Dutch because only Dutch knows where the stash is. So it would make no sense to betray Dutch if you desperately need him. This is why he kept agreeing with Dutch and slipped more ideas into his head to become his new favorite. Betraying the gang only ruins his reputation in Dutch's eyes, we see that Dutch leaves him after the fight with Arthur, so what was the point of all this? Also, he doesn't seem like the type who would ever work with the law, we see in the epilogue that he's still a gangster and that he likes it. And I don't see any reason for Pinkertons to get the most notorious gang member and be like "hey that guy can work for us, the one who kills and robs the most"... I think that the rat stuff was thrown in the game just to make a simple excuse for Micah being the final boss, as if you couldn't have done that better...
I would be fine with Micah betraying Dutch AFTER they get the money from blackwater, that way he gets all the money and has guaranteed freedom, but betraying Dutch before that is just stupid and out of character.
Yeah I agree
It’s actually well written, just the rat is Abigail but not Micah.
I don’t understand how Micah isn’t a rat he killed two gang members and got 1 captured and 1 killed.
I don't think the epilogue is the best evidence for Micah not being a rat... because Micah says that he's been getting all sorts of visitors lately, and then Dutch steps out of the cabin, implying that Dutch had just recently arrived with the money from Blackwater in tow. So Micah hadn't been with Dutch over the past 6 years, Dutch was likely living a solitary life out in the wilderness trying to rationalize what happened and came to the conclusion based on what happened on the mountain, that Arthur was right and Micah was the rat. Arthur thought Micah was the rat because that's what Milton told him, and I think Milton told Arthur that with the intention of letting Arthur, Sadie, and Abigail - the real rat - slip away back to camp in order to feed Dutch this bad intel. After that happened, the problem would solve itself through breakdown of trust and infighting... which it does.
Abigail was the rat from the beginning, but I think she stopped being an informant after the Saint Denis heist because of what Milton did to Hosea. After that, as Arthur put so eloquently, they didn't need a rat, because they'd gotten sloppier than the town drunk. John may have been a rat too, but it wouldn't make sense after the Blackwater Heist, because that would have been the perfect opportunity for both of them to get away with Jack after having delivered Dutch and the rest of the gang to the Pinkertons. Abigail probably stuck around precisely BECAUSE John wasn't an informant and he got hurt at Blackwater.
Im years late on this hype but I believe there was no rat.
Molly was just drunk a tightlipped drunk for the gang, but a loudmouth drunk to the gang, died because of it, but probably led the pinkertons to the camp after drunkly walking back to camp.. and someone surveiled them.
"I'm not much of a company anyway"
Micah had extreme daddy issues and sees Dutch as a father figure, got super jealous with Arthur and suggested the ferry mission to get recognition.
"I'm a survivor, black lung, a survivor!"
The Pinkertons are blood hound investigators, they found out about the bank heist through the gang's shenannigans before the heist, and found John by their own.
"I enjoy society"
The ferry massacre contained loads of munneh with little to no guards which is not ideal but turns out the popos and agency was already on standby incase someone robs it, and someone did, no one was expecting for it to be robbed which is why the gang even managed to escape, the innocent woman who was shot probably saw Dutch's face or someone from the gang which led to the rare disease called bullet through brains, which starts the parade where people suddenly sleep on the ground.
"I did it to survive"
After he was captured (arrested) it's most likely he was "brainwashed" and turned into a traitor
Could be the case
I always thought Micah wasn't the rat for the St. denis bank hiest at least. After thinking about it. The law/Pinkertons showed up because the gang drew attention when killing that rich guy. You get the bank mission RIGHT after. Of course after the noise from killing that rich guy and the trolley station etc, that put the law on high alert.
Since players pointed out Miltion said Micah didn't spill the tea until after Guarma
2 points.. 1 there is a news paper clipping with reward for Dutch at Micah camp behind strawberry.. point 2 John wouldn't have knew about the lakay hideout..
He was neither Rat nor snake nor traitor, Milton also knew that Arthur hated Micah's presence. Micah's defensive reaction is seen when Arthur carelessly uses the gang's authority and then points a gun. anyone would have done what micah did if he didn't feel guilty.
On the other hand, Micah is the only gang who is most loyal to the Dutch even though he is a ridiculous
smart, gentleman and very cruel person. Loyalty to the Dutch its more prominent than Bill, Javier, Pearson, Mary Beth, Tilly, Abigail, John or Arthur. Arthur's craziest mistake is to corner Micah into hating him to death with his crazy conspiracy theories about the Black Water case, Sean's death in Rhodes and then the robbery in Saint Denis that took the lives of Lenny and Hosea. Micah has never hated Arthur personally, in fact he sincerely respects him like the mission when Arthur saved Micah in the Strawberry Prison in chapter 2 then Micah gave a special gift that players could use like a holster as proof of his gratitude to
Arthur, on the other hand Arthur continued to treat Micah like Fool people.
if you played rdr1 ur theory doesnt make sense he would never be a snitch because he could kill abigail and jack with that
What if he was forced
@@poseidon3492 then its not really his fault but as i said we would got confirmed that he is the rat somehow but we never did
@@Momoooo72 It's just a theory in the end of the day
agent Milton tells Arthur they picked up Micah after they got back from guarma, it's literally a scene in the game
bro thank you people are getting mad at me for nothing
My pleasure 😉
*6 months. Micah was the most recent member joining 6 months before the start of the game so not much time to establish loyalty, if anything that makes him the most suspect
Then why he didn't betray Dutch since 1899 to 1907
John was working for the pinkertons in rdr1. Why is it so hard to believe his involvement wasn’t much sooner.
Micah being rat is debatable because he kill a lot Pinkerton and Cornwall guard and he have may opportunity to handed dutch to Pinkerton
It's kinda convincing that john is the rat but i honestly think micah is still the rat. remember when in chapter 6 john gets shot dutch and micah comes back ''hEs dEaD'' when he really wasn't he was shot, i mean we all knew he was going to survive because he's literally in the first game, thats not my point. then arthur says abagail was captured. micah tries his best to convince dutch that he should let abagail go and he somehow managed to convince dutch that. then they get into the oil place where they raided it with the indians, when they go in to get the papers, dutch literally WATCHES arthur get captured as he says ''dutch i need help!'' dutch walks out of the building then rain falls son comes in and saves arthur arthur confronts duch but dutch denies it, and tries to make it seem like arthur is lying basically. BUT this is not all about dutch. what i think is that if arthur went to rescue abagail milton was gonna snitch on micah basically saying he's been snitching. It's just so convenient that milton chooses micah??? why micah? why not bill javier, or even one of the girls. then when arthur come's back and says micah is snitching, why did micah kill arthur? is it because him and dutch has BEEN planning to kill arthur because arthur was way to smart for his own good, knowing something was off about dutch and micah. micah plan was to kill arthur (because arthur found out he was snitching) he tried to get on dutch good side, then kill dutch and have all the money for himself. what im trying to say is, thats why micah was acting fishy tried to let abagail go, etc. then one day in chapter 6 micah started messing with jack. john says ''leave my son alone if u have anything to say say it to me u son of a b) then afther micah and john get through arguing john says ''MICAH THINKS IM THE RAT? AFTHER ALL THEM YEARS!!!!!!'' basically im trying to say micah was trying to sabatoge everything, tried to say everyone else was ratting, and thats why he was acting all sweet to dutch. just the way micah was defending himself when arthur confronted him just sounds guilty so i think im 100% postive micah was ratting. him and dutch's plan was to kill arthur because he was to smart for them. knowing they was plotting aginst him.
I see you points and to be honest I believe that Micah was the rat but I think that the theory is still fun nonetheless
bro what the fuck is this comment fuck off
In Valentine when John and Herr Struass is captured, it wasn't the pinkertons, it was Cornwall's personal men.
I’ve been playing this game again though after four years, and that is a great point I never picked up on, when you find Micah on the mountain he has Dutch with him and they’re still hiding? We always assume that Mika is the rat but you’re right I don’t think he is, because why would he still be hiding with Dutch unless the death of Milton kind of nullified his deal
11:35 I imagined that Abigail created a distraction for the Pinkertons which allowed Tilly and Jack to ride out of Beaver Hollow during the raid
Fantastic video but I just wanted to make the point that Micha and Dutch only reunited recently before being confronted by John.
Thank you and you're right
every few months i get obsessed with rdr2 lore and i recently wondered if abigail and john really were the rat. im glad when i searched it ur video was here!
I appreciate that
7:46
That is not accurate. It weren't the Pinkertons who held John and Strauss hostage in Valentine. Those were Cornwall's men.
Cornwall finances the Pinkertons after his train has been robbed, but he also has his own men.
Even 12 years after Dutch killed Cornwall in Annesbrug (1911 RDR1), the Pinkertons (Agent Ross) pursue the gang. Both work indepentently from another.
I think it was Abigail who betrayed the gang so that she, Jack and John could live a peaceful life and leave their criminal past behind.
Afterall, she was the driving force for John to become a decent man and good father.
If it weren't for her, John would have stayed an outlaw indefinitely.
Andrew Milton only told Arthur that Micah was the rat to protect Abigail and drive a wedge between the remaining gang members.
Yeah it was my mistake. I hear a lot about Abigail being the rat and it makes sense. Even Dutch mentions her as being the rat in Chapter 5 on Guarma
A point is milton told micah was a good boy since they came back from guarmy. And a example is the robbery in saint denis was before guarma. So who told the pinkertons about the bankjob in saint denis?
It was mac callander , the pinkertons got alot of info off him by torturing him until his slow painful death from being refused medical attention during interrogation
An insect bite you or something? 'Cause you gone, friend!
😂
Thank you for clearing my name. I never admit that I ratted the gang out.
Literally start rdr1 in the opening scene it confirms that John was a federal informant
It doesn't confirm it. He is forced to work with them against his will and no one mentions that he worked with them before
@@poseidon3492he could’ve been forced to work with them against his will since he left the gang the first time and there’s no introduction of him working for the pinkertons in any of the games so as far as I’m concerned he could’ve been a federal informant before the black water heist if not him then Abigail
@@Pamel3216 yeah but in the end it's only our speculations
but micah said he's gonna kill john too so you aint right
Maybe yeah🤔
I don't really think John is the rat. It would make more sense if Abigail was the rat.
Maybe you're onto something 🤔
@@poseidon3492 it all makes sense now...
John died by the hands of a Pinkerton
Hmm. I think Micah is a rat but I don’t really blame him tbh. He has no reason to be loyal to the Van Der Linde gang. He’s in it for the money, and when things get so bad they end up stranded in Guarma he wouldn’t want to be part of the gang anymore. He’s losing faith in Dutch’s plans. And then he’s picked up by Pinkertons. Either die for these people you’ve only known for a couple months? Or rat them out and save yourself? Obviously save yourself.
Yeah that makes sense
imagine playing as micah in rdr3? and witness his POV and his backstory? because I dont rlly hate him that much EVERY VILLAIN HAS PAINFUL BACK STORY
I think maybe Molly O-Shea did speak as Dutch beggan to avoid here and she came to the thought that he was cheating as no one in the gang cared for her nor did she. She Ratted them out and Micah had chances to either kill Arthur or if he was after Dutches Bounty Turn him In. My theory is that Molly O-Shea has ratted them out during Chapter 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6. If i am not right it might be Abigail Roberts as she would not be able to slip away anyone found out that it was strange in Chapter 2 When Arthur Wwent Fishing with Jack that Pinkertons Magicaly appered or somone called them as only Abigail Knew where they were going. I hope that Micah isnt the Rat as i liked him in the start he was the badass who killed anyone and everyone against the gang
John isn't because although he went away for a year AWOL Micah is rarely in camp and is also sometimes away every few days with gives him enough time to lead information into the Pinkertons, and John wouldn't be away for a year JUST giving info to the Pinkertons.
I wasn't saying that he was with Pinkertons together for a year
Why would they try to hang John or go after him in RDR1?
Because Milton and Ross wanted the glory. The gang is a trophy to them. So after they brought down the gang, they needed to get the last one, for the glory.
@@dundercola they already had it though, the van der linde weren’t operating because of them.
@@patient315 ik, but john marston was a ”legend” in that time.
My personal take on it is Micah didn't rat or work with the Pinkertons EVER he was far to violent and unpredictable to be used to get information from. Uncle, Pearson, Abigail, Sadie and Charles would all be more approachable. Sadie and Abigail are the most likely ones to rat. Sadie has no problems after the gang is destroyed getting a job as a bounty hunter (using her real name too) despite her being involved in lots of the gangs activities. Abigail would be more likely to rat to save Jack and John. Personally I lean much more heavily on Sadie being the rat. Mainly because of the timeline of John's forced career of hunting his former gang associates and Sadie helping kill Micah. It's a pretty good distance from Micah's camp to John's farmstead and in a era where you can't just look up everyone's address them finding John on his ranch is suspicious
Your theory is really interesting. Although I made this video I lean more towards Abigail being the rat
@@poseidon3492 I do tend to believe Abigail would be a likely suspect but she has a fairly strong bond with members of the gang outside of Jack and John where she would be more willing to abandon them rather then run away, Sadie has no such recourse. Also Sadie being much more violent then even Micah would make her a good candidate for it aswell. edit: for clarity, Micah shows no regard for civilians but doesn't go out of his way to look for other gangs while Sadie does but Sadie doesn't hurt Civillians. Sadie does more harm then she avoids
Abigail isn't the rat.
@@gravity4467 how do you know? oh you dont lol
@@danteferraro23 It was never implied nor confirmed if you actually played the game. It has zero evidence.
I love the effort u put into this theory, it’s clear u put time and effort into this and I really appreciate that. But I have to say a few things, first off, Javier never wanted to save John because he was too loyal to Dutch, and Dutch didn’t want to save John. In his eyes that’s betrayal. Javier is the most loyal, tho that ended up being a bad thing in the end. John being the rat is interesting but flawed, would rockstar jeopardize the reputation of the original red dead redemption by making John the rat? No they wouldn’t but to add to that u say when john left the gang and came back he might’ve been in contact with the Pinkertons, which is interesting, even I thought about that but I don’t think that’s true, like when u say john tipped them off about the blackwater job, Micah had fallen for a scam, remember in chapter 4 when Lenny hears about a stage coach job but ends up being a set up? That’s what I think the blackwater job was, a set up and Micah was too stupid to realize. It was a trap for outlaws to rob it and then be caught by the Pinkertons, why is there so much money on the bout? Well probably because it was a real shipment of money but the Pinkertons were still there in case somebody tried to rob it, and the van der linde gang fell for it. Micah wasn’t running with Dutch all those years between story, when Dutch walked away from Arthur he was really walking away from everything, only in 1907 they met up again to get the blackwater money, and Dutch kills Micah because Dutch realized his mistake and he has too much of an ego to let Micah destroy his gang, anyway I still liked the video and you have a new subscriber 👍🏼
I appreciate it a lot ♥️
Thats the beauty about this game, there is never a 100 percent situation
I don't think him being a rat matters. With our without him the outcome of the game would've been the same
Yeah true
We need a prequel game of John Marston leaving the game for the year prior
Micah is hated by everyone lol. It would be a brilliant twist if Rockstar reveal his innocence in RDR 3
you should to focus on conversations in beaver H fight, Edgar Ross goes and says where is Dutch ?brought him and kill him, kill them all, and if you use the free camera you find Micah Bell killing a lot of the Pinkerton in front of them, and he shouting on Dutch to escape, and you will see Dutch and Micah and the rest are hiding under a hill And when you open the map, you will not find a red mark at Micah, and when you choose to return for the money here a yellow spot appears on the map, indicating that Micah and Arthur returned from the same way and their goal is the same as money, Arthur returned to take the money, but Micah returned by order of Dutch, so they met at the cave The dialogue took place, and Micah is angry at Arthur for having separated from Dutch willingly and wants money, so he sees him as a traitor.
Arthur sees Micah a traitor because of the saying of the manipulative fool Milton (listen to his conversations at the lake with Arthur and listen to his friends in Shady Belle what they say about him) and the only survivor three times is abigail ,She was not sudden reaction to the mention of the name Micah Bell ,she was ready to betray before (where was Jack when Milton came to Lakay) Micah bell went out himself and killing and slaughtering in the pinkerton, abigail steal Dutch's key without his knowledge and without knowledge of Miss Susan.Dutch's back turned around Arthur and Micah in the scene, not indicating that he broke up with Micah and Arthur, but rather his arrogant habit (in Blackwater leaving Sean / leaving and neglecting his lover Susan / leaving and neglecting Molly / not taking care Hosia's health ..On the mountain and in the cave he went and left Arthur to grapple with death alone..dutch bear a black heart that is not merciful and is covered with his pride and greatness and honey tongue.
You are a fool, your comment is hard to understand
@@justice_of_RUclips Maybe your mind is too small to understand,And you listened to the internet random.
@@soonmoon2288 why it always you two arguing each other lmao. I don't really mind it. It's just interesting.
And BTW, yoyr theory are kinda good tho
they wasn't together for 6 years, they lived their own lives and just decided to go and get the money they left years ago.
I don't claim to be the guru of this game's plot, but during my second playthrough I've had this thought that pre-Guarma rat is Trelawny. He's in a good position for it, he's close to the leaders of the gang, is not a part of the camp, so he can move freely, and eveyone in the gang see him as a friend.
And yet, Trelawny seems to always be where the gang is, turning up in a convinient way. I know it is not that consistent with the Grand Korrigan heist, but on his mission to save Shaun (he gave a tip to the gang about that), everyone is met with an unusually big amount of bounty hunters in the area, which led me to believe it was a trap. The fact that Trelawny disappeared even before the action really began also points to it a bit.
Then he tips Dutch on the Grey/Braithwaite business, which goes way down south for the gang. Can't say much about the bounty hunter situation, except for one thing: Trelawny goes to live with the gang to Clemens Point, so he obviously knows where the gang is. And soon after the family feud and the assault on Braithwaite manor, Milton and Ross go to the camp to strike a deal with the gang!
Saint Denis and the Grand Korrigan seem to be a bit out of order in this theory, but it is bound to have caused some type of reaction among the top layer of the society. And I can't say anything about why Trelawny stuck around in Beaver Hollow.
However, I have a feeling Trelawny tipped Dutch off to several big "jobs" that all go sideways due to how dangerous they are, and it's done for a purpose. Sean rescue mission looked like a trap to lure some of the gang in to capture or kill them, then the Grey/Braithwaite thing might have tried to do the same thing, or it could be an instigation of war, because both families have done questionable things and nothing could be done about this legally (I mean, Rhoades's sheriff is a Grey!), so Milton could have planned to take care of the old country folk by Dutch's gang.
And the Grand Korrigan seems to pin the gang to a hit on the elites of the state.
Long story short, Trelawny led the gang to different jobs and ideas which are effectively pinned on Dutch and the gang for ease of legal procedures. Why does he do that? Well, Trelawny is a conman, and is caught on his scams which easily could send him to prison or even to hang. So, maybe, when he's been caught on something (maybe even when sheriff Grey took him in for the gold) Milton made him an offer, somewhat similar to John in RDR 1, to undermine the gang, and in return, Trelawny's crimes are swept under the rug and his family in Saint Denis (easily within the reach of local authorities) is safe and sound.