Hello Roy. I just found this video. I did work for a class 1 RR. You’re right on every point. Only thing I would add was on the Santa Fe, any hazardous materials had to be buried behind five non flammable cars between the locomotive and any occupied caboose. Nice job Roy
1: Buffer cars are non hazmat cars used for creating a buffer area between either power, other hazmat cars, or shiftable loads. 2: Pretty much any hopper, grain, rock or coal, boxcar or even coil cars may be used. Usually we use grain hoppers since they're readily available, they're not residue cars and they can usually be left where they end up at since they're not a priority car. So grain hopper is the most common buffer you'll see. Rock cars are also used a lot. You won't see very many coal cars since they tend to stay together in unit coal trains, but I have used them before. 3: buffer cars can be either loaded or empty, but it's preferred that they're loaded. Either grain, rock or sand ect. Loaded is preferred so that the weight of the car will slow the other cars before reaching the consist or hazmat cars, but loaded is not required if no loads are available. 4: You see buffers at the rear of trains now days so that incase the train rolls backwards, or is hit from behind there's a buffer there to take the brunt of the action. It didn't used to be that way, but rules have changed. Also if there is a DPU on the rear, it must have a buffer car. Buffers are also used in mixed freight trains as well. These buffers will be cars that already belong to that train, but they're used as buffers, say if you have a flat car with pipes next to a tank, you'll switch a buffer in between them. Or, certain chemicals can't be placed next to each other, so you'll switch a buffer between them. This is why mixed freight looks all jumbled up for the most part, it's buffer placement mixed with the train having been switched and built by car destination instead of classification. If possible, a loaded hazmat train should have 5 buffers on the head end, but if 5 isn't available, you use however many you have around. That's why you'll see loaded hazmat with 1-4 buffers instead of the 5. MTY hazmat cars/trains only require 1 buffer car though. Each type of load and hazmat has it's own set of buffer placement rules though. This chemical requires at least 3 buffers, while this one only needs one buffer ect. Also, when switching in a yard, you do not need to use buffers, but once the train is being double up and built for departure, it must have the correct buffers before it gets out on the mainline. Most industries don't require buffers either unless specified by the industry. One industry may be totally cool with you moving 15 acid cars around without a buffer, while another industry requires buffers or reacher cars. If you have any more questions feel free to ask me.
some times they will put a buffer on the back of a hazmat in the yard to get personal a place to ride when sorting the cars as they cant ride a hazmat car (i dont know anything about this my friend is a conductor and sorts cars his yard has a lot of LP cars going to natural gas power plants along the ohio)
Thank you so much for your time commenting this great video. But I have a question about buffer cars: I have seen buffer cars with damping systems at both ends of the rail car. Is this an especial type of buffer car which is used for an especial condition a of HAZMAT tank car train? I work for a railroad company in Peru and I also teach about railway rules so I look forward to your response.
@luisneyra4520 nope, there's no real requirement here for dampening systems, up here they're called cushioned draw bars. There's only a select few railcars that have them. Newer style box cars, some flat cars, and some bulk head center beam cars. These cars have cushioned drawbars because their loads are either fragile or shiftable loads. Other than that, you can pick any car you want to use as a buffer as long as it's 'car placement in train' rules are followed. Eg, don't want to use a tank as a buffer with a shiftable load car behind it.
@@GolfFoxtrotCharlie-gfc Thank you very much for your prompt response. It has helped me clear up the doubt I had since I saw one in the formation of the train that derailed in Lac Megantic.
I'm a locomotive engineer and regularly work unit ethanol trains. Our buffer cars are usually hoppers with sand. Recently I got on a train that was 'tied down', so the conductor went back to release the hand brakes before we departed... Just for the heck of it, as he was walking by the buffer car, he smacked the side of it with his hand. The car was empty! It's very easy to tell, an empty car resonates like a drum, a load would just make a dull thud that does not resonate. The sand had all leaked out over time through leaky hopper slide doors. We switched out the buffer car for a different one in the yard. The buffer car being empty is dangerous because empty, the car weighs next to nothing... maybe 25 tons, with all those 130 ton tank cars behind it... It could derail on grades or during changes in slack.
Only thing I can add from my experience is that the main reason why they'll have weight in the buffer car is just to equalize the load of the run . If you have a long tanker train and you have the locomotives on one end of the buffer and the weight of the train on the other end, that's a good way to pull out draft box or break a knuckle. On local tank runs less than 20 cars usually they'll just run an empty box car or something similar. Also depends on what buffer cars are available at the time that the train is being assembled. Some buffer cars just stay with a run of cars all the time, some get moved around, I've even seen cars that are part of the manifest being used as a buffer car. Really just depends on the specific railroad and what industries are along their lines railroads just want to be as efficient as possible.
Your questions are excellent and your answers are correct. I have observed many ethanol trains come into Worcester, MA on CSX and then transferred to the P&W for delivery to Providence, RI. These trains are answers to the questions that you pose. Thank you for sharing.
Hi Roy, my name is Daniel, I'm from Brazil currently living in Portugal. I've discovered your channel last week and also rediscovery my passion for model raildoads, in 2009 I started to build a HO layout but as I was living in a 45m² apartment and I gived up. Thank you for the great videos and the paused English that helps me to understand everything, I'm just planning to built a N scale layout. Enjoy the Panaminian sun!
I worked for CSX as a conductor. We also used a buffer car at the end so when we shoved the train backwards, we conductors had a car to ride on as we were not allowed to ride on tanker cars.
The Government has put out the Form 8620, Hazmat Guide. This document (should be available online) includes alot of info on car placards, car placement in train, and much more. It also covers how to place Hazmat in a train makeup and even switching Hazmat related cars. Following this guide can also make for some interesting switching scenarios on your layout. Much of it depends on what commodities you are or intend to carry in your railcars. Try and get ahold of one of these guides for specific info. Like Roy said, sometimes, your buffer car can be another tanker of another commodity based on the placard on the car.
Late half of 1960`s I worked for Reynolds Aluminum and we made 100 foot long plates for aircraft wings. We were the only shop capable of that large plate operation. Plate that on a flat car with empty flats on either end. They were shipped from McCook Illinois to Boeing Aircraft. At the time some wings were made from solid plate and hogged out to final shape much the same as we do with 3D printers now, just larger scale.
Well researched Roy, you pretty much nailed it. An sbu ( or end of train device) can be put on the rear of a tank car if the need be, when we run a transfer train, meaning taking the cars from a yard to another location within a 30mile radius then we don’t require a sbu (end of train device) so that might be the reason you sometimes don’t see an sbu on the last car. Now I work as a conductor on a class 1 Canadian railroad, so I can’t confirm 100% on sbu procedures for UP, but it should be pretty similar. Your layout looks amazing and very prototypical, cheers!
Hello I am sure by now you have your answers but though I would comment anyway. I work for Union Pacific and here are your answers and why, 1. "Buffer cars" just refers to any non shift able load that does not fall within the same or more restrictive hazmat placement chart in our form 8620 which is our hazmat book. When a train has a loaded hazmat car it can not be placed closer than the sixth car to a locomotive even if not running. That would mean if a loaded unit train of hazardous material had buffer cars at both ends that the rear car would need to be removed or repositioned to the head end if there was no DP unit. Once hazmat cars are empty they only have to be separated by one car from a locomotive even if not running. 2. Buffer cars can be any kind of freight car that does not fall within placement restrictions in our 8620 form 3. Buffer cars can be loaded or empty. If they are loaded it is usually with sand. You are correct that many buffer cars are retired hoppers. For modeling these cars " Buffer service only. Do not repair gates" is stenciled on the side of the car. Also the bottom gates are removed and welded shut. 4. There might be a buffer car at the end of the train for DP or helper service. However if the train is loaded the rear buffer must be removed or repositioned to the head end if there is no DP unit. I hope this helps
Thanks for the information you have provided about how the Union Pacific handles buffer cars. I really appreciate it because one of my primary goals is to operate my layout like the prototype I'm modeling. Your information has helped clear up some ambiguities. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience. ...Roy
No problem, there are many more placement restrictions that the average person does not realize. I am a modeler myself and train shows I have gone to I see many "placement errors" that go overlooked. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask.
Ever since a serious derailment and tank car fire near Montgomery, WV, CSX has been running two or three covered hoppers between every group of tankers along the New River line with buffers behind the motive power and train end. There are also idler cars used when switch engines are pushing freight cars into inclosed buildings to eliminate engine exhaust in the buildings. Nice touch in a model railroad layout.
As one that used to work for UPRR: 1) Any car utilized to keep the engines(motors) away from the Hazardous Materials. Depending on the Hazmat, depends on exactly how many buffer cars have to be used. 2) Technically Any car that does not contain HAZMAT. They can be Emptys or Loads, but will usually have the same destination(or similar one). 3) See 2 4) Buffers at the"End" of the train may signify that there was a motor at that end over mountainous grade, OR that at some point, the train may have been or have to be pulled from that end for some reason.
1. A car placed between the locomotive, special freight (like a crane or back hoe), passenger equipment, or the end of train, and a dangerous car, be it a dangerous commodity, a load prone to shift, or what have you. 2. At the railroad I work at, we'll use any car with some degree of body to it, such as a hopper or box car. Generally the buffer car is empty, and often owned by the railway. Either that, or, especially in local trains, a car from a different marshaling block that would wind up in the same train anyway, just in a different position. 3. Many aren't loaded at all. If they are, they're loaded with non-valuable, non-dangerous loads, such as sand or grain. 4. To protect a movement that may be approaching (or being approached) from the rear, or anything else the rear of the train may hit if it's moving in reverse.
To add a little background to a few areas -- Hazmat tankers are actually the most dangerous when low or empty of their load. In the Fire Service we train for these incidents often and the term used for the hazard presented by almost empty or empty takers is B.L.E.V.E. (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion). The vapor area in a low load/empty loaded explosive hazmat car is greater than when full. Liquids do not explode, their vapors do! If an accident were to happen the likely hood of external fire causing a Bleve are much higher based on the level of the cargo.
Just out of curiosity - would it be possible to reduce the risk by washing the inside of tankers by some non-flammable liquid? Or alternatively throwing some sparks at the empty wagons, so that the vaporised liquid would burn out?
There are washout procedures for maintenance but not between service runs. There are a series of relief valves that typically function properly and you'll see off gassing occur with possible ignition of off gassing which still keeps the cavity cool and spark free. The real issue is if/when a valve fails and pressure gets too high for the container causing a violent escape of the gas which can ignite it just from the pneumatic pressure escaping (only with highly volatile chemicals) or post escape ignition. The devastation from just a 20 gal propane tank is super scary, but there are examples (I think you can youtube KCFD train explosion) to see what happens when a bleve occurs.
You mean this one: ruclips.net/video/K-tUQTw_Vtk/видео.html That does look very scary. But my question was about intentionally letting gas out via some opening, where it is ignited with open fire - just like in old water-heating boilers like this one: www.nj24.pl/sites/default/files/article/main/6718/junk6.jpg Usually in the opening there is a small flame (about twice as big as candle flame) that burns the gas. Because of that any leaks that happen are - for the most part - relatively safely burned before they become dangerous. As long as the small flame is burning at lest.
Yes, that video is a good example of how powerful a bleve is. What the valves do = If there is fire from the train accident and the heat is close to a tanker, the safety valves will pop off as pressures rise in the tank. Those outside flames can/usually do ignite the plume of safety valve off gassing. If there is no flame but for some reason the pressure is high enough, the valve will still pop open and off gas without flame. Just need an ignition source. There are situations where super cooled loads (liquid oxygen and others) will pop safety valves when in hot areas with no adverse effect.
Gasoline is not what combusts. It's the vapor that does. Fun fact ethanol does not have a visible flame, and first responders have walked directly into a fire.
We called them barrier wagons in the UK. They used to be fairly common on fuel trains and trains carrying hazardous materials. They were used for exactly the same reasons as in America, but once steam locos were retired no barrier wagons were used as a barrier between the locos and the first tank wagon. They were still used at the end of a fuel train whilst oil lamps were still being used. We had two basic kinds retired wagons (most of them) and purpose built wagons (a few). The retired wagons would be empty and could be an open wagon or a van. On Teesside there were some purpose built barrier wagons used on hydrogen cyanide trains and other trains carrying acids. It's nice to learn about how the America railroads operate and that it is not much different to here. I also model in N gauge, but currently am between layouts.
Hi Roy, some answers from Europe just for fun. Buffer cars here are used for the same reason, but as most of our lines are electrified, there is a chance of generating electric sparks by the connection of the locomotive and the electric line on top. Buffer cars are to maintain distance between the locomotive and the tank cars. Here mostly gondolas and flat cars are used as buffer cars, but I have already seen boxcars and even cement cars as well. All of these were 2-axle cars. These railcars are not loaded. I have never seen a buffer car at the end of a train, but in Europe all our loading and unloading equipment is designed to handle smaller consists so even a unit train will be shunted for (un)loading purposes. Dangerous goods wagons can be in mix trains here as well, but that is regulated quite strictly, for example different types (i.e. 5 LPG cars and 3 benzene cars) cannot be near each other, there has to be a certain number of axles between them. Hope this was interesting to you :)
The Pennzoil refinery in Shreveport, LA has facilities to handle 15-car blocks of TankTrain cars. These cars have a hose between cars and are loaded and unloaded from the ends without uncoupling. The valves at ends of each car are closed for transport. I have seen groups of these cars in trains going through Jefferson, TX. This arrangement makes for faster loading and unloading than individual car connections. Without a stencil or placard you would need a list to know what is in a tank car. You can get an idea based on the size of the tank. The smaller the tank the denser the product. Cars carrying bromine are about the smallest used because of its density.
Victoria, Australian prior to 1980 had rules for tank wagons and explosive wagons quite similar. There had to be at least one wagon between the loco and thw tank wagons, as well as between the brakevan (caboose) - even for shunting ( hence the rear buffer car would be useful). As always modern rules may be different now as there is less tanker traffic on our railways these days. IT also varied from state to state here. It add to operation say if you pretens one tanker goes hot or defective and you need to switch it out, or and another posted, the sand empties and you need to find another buffer van. Here in Victoria they used any van/wagon. Interesting topic!
I found your videos through the suggested videos in wargaming terrain building videos. I've never built a model railroad before, but these videos are incredibly interesting, and your layout is fantastic. Coming from wargaming, where terrain can often be quite cobbled together, seeing something that fits together so nicely is really something to behold.
Hmm, that's interesting. Thanks so much. I never thought about the comparisons between model railroading and wargaming terrain models. But it does make a lot of sense, because I suspect that we use, or could use, a lot of the same techniques. In either case, we are trying to replicate something in the real world in a small space. ...Roy
6 лет назад+1
Good info, consistent with my own research. I'm beginning to model steel-mill operations in HO, and buffer cars are often used between the locomotives and high-temperature loads (hot-metal and slag) there as well. I've seen buffer cars used between hot-metal cars within a train too.
Thanks for sharing this information. I really appreciate it. One of the best things about model railroading is the way we in hobby can share our knowledge and experience with each other. ...Roy
1, Buffer cars I see are either designated in buffer service, or a covered hopper filled with sand. 2, buffer cars at the end of the train are fairly common. It allows a railroad to either run the train conventional or with a tail end remote.
After getting a tour of Conway yard and Conway Pennsylvania for the Boy Scouts ( the only reason we got in there was because the scoutmaster was an engineer) I asked them why they where boxcars on tanker cars he told me Norfolk Southern run these in case of an explosion or fire they pack some sort of material into the boxcars to prevent it from spreading it's a safety regulation on that railroad
Buffer cars are required between HAZMAT cargo, and ANY maned locomotives and/or cars, i.e. the rare caboose, or business car. The Montana Rail Link uses a box car as a buffer on their twice daily "Gas Local" trains, and as far as I know there is no load, other than tools. Nice video BTW.
great vid roy, your last question was answered correctly always put a buffer ca on the rear for protection and or helpers if they are going to be added or for the run around,,,keep up the good work...Gary
You will see buffer cars also on military trains. You might find buffer cars between freight cars that are carrying hazardous materials like ammunition and explosives. Plus cars carrying such materials are typically in high visibilty colors and carry warning placards. You also may see buffer cars on military trains separating armored vehicles from the engines and also to the rear of the train. More often or not, you'll see flat cars acting as buffers for trains carrying armored vehicles too.
1. To maintain space from manned equipment 2. I’ve seen covered hoppers and box cars with the doors locked and sealed. 3. Empty 4. Double head service with an FRA waiver.
Hi In fact an empty tank that recently carried petrol/gasoline or LPG is more of an explosion risk than a full one. This is because of the oxygen in the air mixing with the fumes. To be sure, the risk of leakage is lower, but the risk of explosion from a stray spark can be higher
Additionally, some railroads require buffer cars between mixed manifest when tankers are present for several reasons. Typically a buffer car is loaded with paper or sundry retail items of low value - if they are loaded at all. They are placed before and after tanker units so that when sorting out at the yard, the switcher will not have to retrieve a buffer car to sort the tanker. Buffer cars are ultimately there for the safety of crews working around them. Accidents happen (cars being humped down the wrong track, handbrakes failing ect.) that could cause a massive issue if a tanker was even left in a yard without buffer cars. One last thing - Tankers do not get humped because of the potential for explosions.
Yes rear buffer cars are used in case of a rear end collision. Saw a vid of Euro(Dutch, I think) collision wher the train was on a siding, & the other one was either misguided or struck the rear tank car because it hadn't cleared the switch completely.
UP Engineer here. Heres my answers to your questions. 1: Buffer cars are any non hazardous or any car that does not have an internal combustion engine (reefer car) that is used to create distance between a hazardous load and a source of fire (a diesel engine on a locomotive) or an occupied car (caboose or business car) 2: Most any car can be used as a buffer. Exceptions are cars like reefer cars due to the internal combustion engine, any car with a shiftable load such as pipe that can shit and penetrate a tank. Most buffers are boxcars or hopper cars. 3: most buffer cars are loaded with sand or gravel. But a boxcar full of tv’s can be used if thats all there is available. 4: you would only find a buffer car at the rear of a train if there was a DP engine shoving on the rear. If there is no DP unit, the buffer car should be moved to the head end to protect the locomotives. And to answer a 5th question: Buffer cars are not just for unit trains. Hazmat carried by general manifest trains also have to have protection for their dangerous loads. Its not as obvious as a unit train but hazmat on a manifest train is placed in certain spots in a train to protect the load, and the crew. For example, you may see a load of bleach and a load of ammonia on a train together. When mixed, those chemicals create a deadly toxic cloud. In the case of a derailment and a breach of the cars, it creates a deadly situation. So you may see between these cars, various cars of other commodities or emptys.
Bistineau Southern Railroad I work for csx and agree with you. Just gonna add to #4 on some of our ethanol trains we have buffers on both ends because they have to be run around. We run around the train and deliver too a short line. Some FRA waver allows one buffer on each end.
Bistineau Southern Railroad Thanks for the information. If I may ask you something a little unrelated, is there a benefit to running a pusher or two at the rear of the train vs putting all the locomotives up front?
Glad you came to comment, I was going to point out the same thing. Along that thinking I doubt that water is ever used as a buffer car load as Roy theorized. Not only is water highly reactive with some dangerous goods, water mixed with any flammable liquid would seriously exacerbate the situation. This is the same reason you don't use water to fight a flammable liquid fire it just spreads the fire around.
Thanks Roy as always for sharing. I do use buffer cars but I don't have to explain why and how because we both are on the same page far as for operations. I do use 2 buffer cars on my trains, the buffer car on the rear is for protection in the event of a rear end collision or if a rear-end helper (DPU) unit is added. Once again Roy you rock and yours vids are totally awesome.
I really appreciate your comment about buffer cars, Terrell. Like most other model railroaders, I seek to replicate the way real trains operate. Thanks for sharing your experience. ...Roy
We have mixed freight at our local live rail yard so there is a mix of cars and tankers. Some we started calling "push-me-pull-you"s. In essence, 2 lead engines and at least a single but sometimes double engines at the end of the train. They don't happen often so it's a real treat to see them. The hazardous cargo coming through our town is sodium hydroxide in tankers that seem to be grouped in strings of 4 with hopper cars, wood/timber, gondolas, boxcars, or flats between the strings. Occasionally, we get tankers holding HFCS (high fructose corn syrup), milk, or heated asphaltum. That's rare to see them, but a treat when we do. Gondolas will carry scrap metal, or be empty. The open top hoppers carry, grain, sand, or gravel. Flats carry rebar or pipes that are 18" or more. The boxcars may be empty or carry a manifest. On very rare occasion, tankers have come through with titanium white aboard. The vast majority of our trains are Norfolk Southern but we've seen a smattering of other lines including Canadian Pacific engines, CSX, and BNSF. The ends of our trains tend to have boxcars, gondolas, or flats with a FRED (we call them winky-blinks) attached. I know we got goofy names for some cars or types of trains, but it makes it easy for us to talk about what we've seen in our rail yard and the local model RR club knows what we're describing when we get together. The HO scale enthusiasts take it to realistic levels when running their trains, but the other N-gaugers are more for the fun of running a train.
Thanks so much for describing the action in your local live yard. I really enjoyed reading your comment, and I love the names you give to certain car types. ...Roy
Roy, for my own research I've been following very long tank car trains in southern California and I've started to see a lot of these trains now have 2 buffer cars on the front of the train. One buffer car on the rear of the train and then d.p.u.'s. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Buffer cars were also used on the end of trains when cabooses were still used for the same reason as using one between an engine and the tank cars. Railroads also used buffer cars, sometimes several, between locomotives and cabooses when hauling stock cars, for similar, obvious reasons. Especially during the summer.
Ah! Very well presented! I've actually seen buffer cars used for a different, but similar purpose, on Welsh narrow gauge quarry lines, where a few empty cars are put between the locomotives and the gunpowder cars - Same with Civil War artillery equipment on flatcars as well.
great video and nice layout. I know this is 3 years old but I was just reading now that BLET and NTSB is now pushing for a 5 car buffer between train crew and hazmat cars
Watching the graffiti is half the fun of watching the train go by - but you have to wonder what makes someone spend hours or days creating works of legit art that are going to be destroyed when the cars are serviced.
Phylis Maddox I think I carved my name on the trunk of the neighbors huge oak tree that's about it for vandalism, and I have zero art skill so painting train cars is not my cup of tea. I wonder why the railroad get so crazy about freight Hoppers yet do nothing or next to nothing to stop vandals painting cars. Once in a while you see something impressive but most often the efforts of the painters is simple vandalism. Yes, I know freight hopping is trespassing as is painting, and many commentators on the Hopper videos claim their concern is that that RR would be sued for the death or injury of a hopper. No such lawsuit has been won for the hopper or their families, in fact I couldn't find that any such suit has been filed going back to the 70's
One thing to be considered is if the hazmat cars are loaded or empty. On the Class 1 I work for, 1 buffer car is required for empty hazmat but 5 are required for loaded hazmat cars, if the cars are available. Many people say the 5 buffer car rule is outdated because it was put in place in a time where locomotives used friction bearings. These bearings were very susceptible to failure, which would result in them heating up, throwing sparks, starting fires, melting down, etc. . Locomotive design has changed a lot over the years and friction bearings are no longer used. If the hazmat is mixed between loaded and empty, the loaded cars have to be behind the empty ones.
I doubt that is accurate, but if it is it isn't well thought out. While intact the railcars sufficiently protect their contents. Someone will likely point out the PRV but that is an infinitely low risk. The risk these rules mitigate is the product being heated by the engine and operator health, both during catastrophic release.
Thank you for another informative video. Here in BNSF country buffer cars are also used on ethanol/gasoline trains. I have even witnessed buffer cars on a unit pipe train. (my only RUclips upload so far, for instance).
Most RRs have always had rules that tank cars carrying hazardous materials cannot be placed next to locos or cabooses. Check an old RR rule book if you're interested. The problem with today's ethanol and oil trains is not the liquid; but the gases above it. Tank cars are only filled about half-way (you can see that on a cold, frosty day. . .); the rest is air and fuel fumes kept under pressure to prevent creation of more fumes. Liquid fuels burn like candle wax, yet their fumes are very unstable. Airplanes now have "oxygen scrubbers" in their tanks to remove enough oxygen ("inerting"), so explosions can't happen. That could be accomplished in RR tank cars too, but it adds to the cost. I guess it's cheaper to have the occasional conflagration than inert the tanks in the first place.
In BNSF country, BNSF used special Buffer cars hat are ribbed side 3-bay hoppers that way Buffer Car Service only. However, in Montana Rail Link land, which is a class 2 railroad, just use old boxcars for a buffer.
The trains that I see going by my house (everyday) all use the closed hopper cars on tank car loads. Most of our tankers are carrying ethanol, which is being produced here locally.
I am modeling the San Diego Surfline in n scale where all kinds of trains pass there! Some of the tracks are 10 feet from the beach in San Clemente, CA!
On the rear - envisage if you will, the likelyhood of a mishap - part way along - a spillage or fire? On the rear would enable the car to be left standing whilst its neighbours were removed from the hazard both forward and back safely by recovery loco units. In UK, buffer cars are termed barrier wagons. In steam days, multiple empty, usually wooden wagons would be used between highly flammable or potentially explosive loads - often in pairs, at various points for just that purpose as dictated by the operating manager and rules of the line company. I have a 1933 rule book for the Southern Railway (UK) from which I will try and dig out the exact wording and rules at some point for you. There were also additional rules for operations in war time to cover the eventuality of attack from the air.
We in the UK used to use "barrier" wagons for much the same purpose, most common on gunpowder and volatile freight consists and still used on transporting nuclear flasks but tanker consists are just loco's and tanks and because they are all braked we don't even run brake vans anymore and go as fast as 75mph but our freight trains are minnows compared to the giants in the US and Canada, I think our "record" passenger train was a Royal Navy movement train to Grimsby which had 22 coaches and the steam 9f 2-10-0's were rated to pull forty short unbraked coal wagons with the 9f remaining one of our strongest engines ever but still not getting close to some of them monster engines over there hehe
Yeah.. in America the horns will make you DEAF... those weak baby horns in Europe are nothing compared to the American Nathan K5LLA air horn often used on the EMD SD70ACe... oh and fact... those class 66 engines over there... were built in the US... most locomotives are built here... we export to India, Brazil, the UK... and so on... you should see the GE BB40-9W exports to Brazil!
I heard about class 66s being built in Canada from several sources but I can only find the Wikipedia entry at the moment: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_66 Found also the Dutch fan site: class66.railfan.nl/ Check out their history section.
The BNSF line by my house hosts mostly manifest trains and I can assure you that there are a LOT of single tank cars in manifest trains. From the BNSF tank trains I have seen, the FMC covered hopper seems to be their favorite. I think it might be because they have a lower center of gravity and thus have less risk of derailment. It also seems like they are readily available-I don't see many of them around hauling grain. Those are just my observations.
On the last question, another common reason is the for the purposes of dividing consists at destination points. That is, if a train is shipping a consist of cars destined for more than one location. A tractor will come from behind to pull a consist apart to make two.
Thanks, Philip. I appreciate your comment. What you say makes sense to me. That is, a buffer car on the rear of the train will facilitate switching when parts of the train are bound for subsequent destinations. ...Roy
Hi Roy. I enjoy your videos and always come back to them when I'm searching for "how-to" n scale information. I like your n scale layouts, especially your background murals. I have created a 27" x 48" layout and a mural would be a good addition. Do you create those or what sources/companies sell n scale murals? Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, my friend. I really appreciate it. I created my own background scenes, using photos taken in the area I'm modeling. They're not perfect, but I am pleased with the results and how they help to depict the location of my layout. ...Roy
Buffer cars on the rear of a train could be to make the job easier on the train crew. If a train is using the same power to head in both directions, having one buffer car right behind the locomotives would require the crew to run around the buffer car to get the locomotives at the front.
I think the only only time i've ever seen this used in this format is when it is pushed into a fueling depot, though depending on length will depend on how many helpers and power units are needed.. i think it is somewhere between 55-75 cars for the requirement for supplemental power and air units are added as for sand, blue metal or water might be used in buffers depending on the cargo type.. as the name implies they are designed as a shield of sorts between the loco and the fuels.. typical i would think closed wagons full of sand bags, hoppers filled with sand blue metal or ballast or water.. typical rail consists will likely 100-250 cars on the low end, and between 450-2,500+ cars on the high end of the service and the destination will generally set the overall length of the consist no matter what is in the tanks whether it diesel, avgas, lpg, unleaded, and all other explosive products that are shipped via rail.. length of cars will dictate where and when power units will be placed in the consist given the power and air brake limits on the reality of physics.. ithink i already addressed this with you some time ago in terms of car to loco limits if you going to do a to scale haul of what is seen in the real world in rail hauling..
Interesting... Also, great "N" Scale layout. Surprised to see N Scale is still around after all of these years. Figured HO scale would have taken over. Also, interesting to see the old "Kadee" couplers are still around or at least that's what they called them when I was a teen model railroader in the 1970s.
Oh, N-scale is much more than "still around." It's actually flourishing and becoming more popular everyday. In some countries such as Japan, it far exceeds HO scale in popularity. Check it out in any online train store, and you will see that it nearly equals HO scale in availability of products. and its quality has improved dramatically in recent decades. I bought my first N-scale loco in the late 1960's. Back then, it was junk. But now, I would never go back to HO. ...Roy P.S. Those "Kadee" couplers are actually Micro-Trains couplers made by the same folks who make HO Kadee couplers.
Another question this brings to my mind, is storage in a yard. Do incompatible products need to be spaced out from each other? I used to be a HazMat responder and I know that a major yard in Toronto had a siding for HazMat cars that were high risk, damaged or actually leaking to separate them from everything else. This used to make us chuckle as it was directly beside a lumber yard and a fuel depot.
Yes and no. No is for several reasons, the yard is considered restricted limits, meaning that the risk of slamming cars together or derailing is minimal, or more controllable if something does happen vs a train derailing on the mainline at 40+ mph. Another reason is yards are obviously used for train break up, make up and storage, so splitting cars by commodity isnt really possible due to lack of track space. The other reason is in most yards, certain tracks are used for certain jobs (destinations). So, say 1 track is where the west bound will be built, and 2 track is where the east bound will be built. Think of it as a reserved parking spot, so since its reserved you dont have much room to be able to pick and choose what else can go where. The yes side of it is like what you stated. Theres some cars that are so dangerous that they have to be kept together and away from other cars. Take this for example, an industry I used to service took chemical pellet hoppers, and they also took tanks that they filled with floor water (nasty water run off from cleaning their equipment). Well this chemical pellet that they took, if introduced to water would turn into a poisonous vapor cloud, so those chemical cars had their own storage track that was barricaded and even roofed, and we were never allowed to handle those cars if we had the floor water tanks on us in case if they were to leak, or the hatch on top was open and a hard joint caused water to splash out. So in some cases like that, yes they will be sluffed to their own track away from other cars, but for the most part in a switching yard, theyll all be mixed together. Acid next to ethanol, ect.
I don't think it's permissible under the rules to run trains with different materials in the consist that react negatively with each other. A unit train is, by definition, a train consisting of all one load.
lokisgodhi It's permissible in mixed freight as long as they're separated by however many buffers are needed per hazmat placement within the train. Correct, unit trains are all one type of load, ethanol, grain, coal ect, but mixed freight is a whole other ball game. As long as the cars are separated by the correct number and placement of buffers there's not really an issue. I wish there was a way to post our hazmat switching placement section, it breaks it down all the way to the UN codes and deeper on what can be next to what, what can't be on the rear of the train and so on. Makes for some brain busting switching when you've got a lot of mixed danger cars to add to your train. Lol
There is a video of a ride on an air force rail line to retrieve tanker cars of jet fuel. The air force engines had a couple of ancient flat cars as buffers.
Here in Australia, tank cars (aka bombs) run regularly in standard freight trains. But I think that has something to do with their being relatively few, but huge, “trunk” lines spanning the country. We also have the occasional *molasses* train that if you’re lucky enough to be standing near, smells AWESOME. I’ve only ever seen these a couple of times though. m.ruclips.net/video/r6CrI8d5m5M/видео.html
Australia has a totally different transportation demand. Importing mostly finished oil products, you get them delivered to the closest port. In the US the large unit trains connect oil fields to refineries and refineries to industry and large distribution hubs. In Australia you have the large ore and coal trains.
For a model I would likely not do buffer cars filled with water. or at lest mark those cars differently than the rest of the train for better visual effect.
My name is Phil and I was a loco engineer for CONRAIL over here on the east coast in New Jersey. You have to look at the book of rules for your prototype railroad to get the exact answer that you are looking for. I will tell you the rules we ran by out here. The rule states. spacer cars must be used betweeb engine and hazerdous placarded cars WHEN TRAIN LENGTH PERMITS....That meains if you have non hazardus cars in your train consist you must put SIX of them on the headend. If your train does not have any non placarded cars in it you do not put any as a buffer. No railroad is going to run cars that do not have to be transported anywhere. Next, the only cars you could not use are empty container cars or flat cars.We have a rule that no empty flats or container cars can be in front of 5000 tons or more of train. Next, I have never read a rule about havng to have a spacer on the rear of a placarded train. I have done helper service and we never gave another thought to having a spacer and if there were a rule you would need SIX non placarted cars the same as headend right. Next, spacers do not have to be loaded. Hoppers, covered hoppers, gons tanks or box cars are all good as long as they are not placared. Now before I get reemed for what sounds totaly redicules, I had an oppertunity to speak with a FRA man that happened to be in the yard office that I was working that day. I asked him about the spacer rule spacificly the If train lenght permits part. He just chuckeled and said its to make the PUBLIC feel safe and not the railroad. That is the gods truth...... You may be able to find a Union Pacific Book Of Rules on ebay cheap. Hope this helps. Phil from Tomtomracing.com
Thanks for your comment, Phil. I want you to know how much ai appreciate hearing from a real engineer, because the information you share helps me run my layout in a more prototypical manner. I will have to look for the Union Pacific book of rules as you suggest. ...Roy
Hello Roy. I just found this video. I did work for a class 1 RR. You’re right on every point. Only thing I would add was on the Santa Fe, any hazardous materials had to be buried behind five non flammable cars between the locomotive and any occupied caboose. Nice job Roy
1: Buffer cars are non hazmat cars used for creating a buffer area between either power, other hazmat cars, or shiftable loads.
2: Pretty much any hopper, grain, rock or coal, boxcar or even coil cars may be used. Usually we use grain hoppers since they're readily available, they're not residue cars and they can usually be left where they end up at since they're not a priority car. So grain hopper is the most common buffer you'll see. Rock cars are also used a lot. You won't see very many coal cars since they tend to stay together in unit coal trains, but I have used them before.
3: buffer cars can be either loaded or empty, but it's preferred that they're loaded. Either grain, rock or sand ect. Loaded is preferred so that the weight of the car will slow the other cars before reaching the consist or hazmat cars, but loaded is not required if no loads are available.
4: You see buffers at the rear of trains now days so that incase the train rolls backwards, or is hit from behind there's a buffer there to take the brunt of the action. It didn't used to be that way, but rules have changed. Also if there is a DPU on the rear, it must have a buffer car.
Buffers are also used in mixed freight trains as well. These buffers will be cars that already belong to that train, but they're used as buffers, say if you have a flat car with pipes next to a tank, you'll switch a buffer in between them. Or, certain chemicals can't be placed next to each other, so you'll switch a buffer between them. This is why mixed freight looks all jumbled up for the most part, it's buffer placement mixed with the train having been switched and built by car destination instead of classification. If possible, a loaded hazmat train should have 5 buffers on the head end, but if 5 isn't available, you use however many you have around. That's why you'll see loaded hazmat with 1-4 buffers instead of the 5. MTY hazmat cars/trains only require 1 buffer car though. Each type of load and hazmat has it's own set of buffer placement rules though. This chemical requires at least 3 buffers, while this one only needs one buffer ect.
Also, when switching in a yard, you do not need to use buffers, but once the train is being double up and built for departure, it must have the correct buffers before it gets out on the mainline. Most industries don't require buffers either unless specified by the industry. One industry may be totally cool with you moving 15 acid cars around without a buffer, while another industry requires buffers or reacher cars.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask me.
that makes a lot of sense
some times they will put a buffer on the back of a hazmat in the yard to get personal a place to ride when sorting the cars as they cant ride a hazmat car (i dont know anything about this my friend is a conductor and sorts cars his yard has a lot of LP cars going to natural gas power plants along the ohio)
Thank you so much for your time commenting this great video. But I have a question about buffer cars: I have seen buffer cars with damping systems at both ends of the rail car. Is this an especial type of buffer car which is used for an especial condition a of HAZMAT tank car train? I work for a railroad company in Peru and I also teach about railway rules so I look forward to your response.
@luisneyra4520 nope, there's no real requirement here for dampening systems, up here they're called cushioned draw bars. There's only a select few railcars that have them. Newer style box cars, some flat cars, and some bulk head center beam cars. These cars have cushioned drawbars because their loads are either fragile or shiftable loads. Other than that, you can pick any car you want to use as a buffer as long as it's 'car placement in train' rules are followed. Eg, don't want to use a tank as a buffer with a shiftable load car behind it.
@@GolfFoxtrotCharlie-gfc Thank you very much for your prompt response. It has helped me clear up the doubt I had since I saw one in the formation of the train that derailed in Lac Megantic.
I think the run around idea is the most practical and likely.
I'm a locomotive engineer and regularly work unit ethanol trains. Our buffer cars are usually hoppers with sand. Recently I got on a train that was 'tied down', so the conductor went back to release the hand brakes before we departed... Just for the heck of it, as he was walking by the buffer car, he smacked the side of it with his hand. The car was empty! It's very easy to tell, an empty car resonates like a drum, a load would just make a dull thud that does not resonate. The sand had all leaked out over time through leaky hopper slide doors. We switched out the buffer car for a different one in the yard. The buffer car being empty is dangerous because empty, the car weighs next to nothing... maybe 25 tons, with all those 130 ton tank cars behind it... It could derail on grades or during changes in slack.
Only thing I can add from my experience is that the main reason why they'll have weight in the buffer car is just to equalize the load of the run . If you have a long tanker train and you have the locomotives on one end of the buffer and the weight of the train on the other end, that's a good way to pull out draft box or break a knuckle. On local tank runs less than 20 cars usually they'll just run an empty box car or something similar. Also depends on what buffer cars are available at the time that the train is being assembled. Some buffer cars just stay with a run of cars all the time, some get moved around, I've even seen cars that are part of the manifest being used as a buffer car. Really just depends on the specific railroad and what industries are along their lines railroads just want to be as efficient as possible.
Straight into the video, I love it like that, not having 1 minute introductions is great.
Your questions are excellent and your answers are correct. I have observed many ethanol trains come into Worcester, MA on CSX and then transferred to the P&W for delivery to Providence, RI. These trains are answers to the questions that you pose. Thank you for sharing.
What's up with the 29 people giving this a thumbs down? Informative and well produced video. Nothing not to like here.
Aaron Roberts i added another one after i read this comment
Belleville Drivers You're just a bundle of joy aren't you
JJRicks Studios keep crying ill find more of this dudes videos to dislike
Thats the kind if person who disliked. No reason they just do.
Miserable people with no life are the kind of people who do such.
Hi Roy, my name is Daniel, I'm from Brazil currently living in Portugal. I've discovered your channel last week and also rediscovery my passion for model raildoads, in 2009 I started to build a HO layout but as I was living in a 45m² apartment and I gived up. Thank you for the great videos and the paused English that helps me to understand everything, I'm just planning to built a N scale layout. Enjoy the Panaminian sun!
I worked for CSX as a conductor. We also used a buffer car at the end so when we shoved the train backwards, we conductors had a car to ride on as we were not allowed to ride on tanker cars.
James Miller hold on you guys can’t ride tank cars?
Cody Andrew No, some guy fell off one, so they made it so we couldn't ride them.
James Miller oh that’s fair. We get in trouble if we ride them the safer way......
As usual, I'm fashionably late to the party but thanks for the info Roy. I thoroughly enjoy watching your videos.
The Government has put out the Form 8620, Hazmat Guide. This document (should be available online) includes alot of info on car placards, car placement in train, and much more. It also covers how to place Hazmat in a train makeup and even switching Hazmat related cars. Following this guide can also make for some interesting switching scenarios on your layout. Much of it depends on what commodities you are or intend to carry in your railcars. Try and get ahold of one of these guides for specific info. Like Roy said, sometimes, your buffer car can be another tanker of another commodity based on the placard on the car.
Late half of 1960`s I worked for Reynolds Aluminum and we made 100 foot long plates for aircraft wings. We were the only shop capable of that large plate operation. Plate that on a flat car with empty flats on either end. They were shipped from McCook Illinois to Boeing Aircraft.
At the time some wings were made from solid plate and hogged out to final shape much the same as we do with 3D printers now, just larger scale.
Well researched Roy, you pretty much nailed it. An sbu ( or end of train device) can be put on the rear of a tank car if the need be, when we run a transfer train, meaning taking the cars from a yard to another location within a 30mile radius then we don’t require a sbu (end of train device) so that might be the reason you sometimes don’t see an sbu on the last car. Now I work as a conductor on a class 1 Canadian railroad, so I can’t confirm 100% on sbu procedures for UP, but it should be pretty similar. Your layout looks amazing and very prototypical, cheers!
Thanks so much. I really appreciate your comment. Knowing how real railroads work enables me to try to replicate it on my layout. ...Roy
Hello I am sure by now you have your answers but though I would comment anyway. I work for Union Pacific and here are your answers and why,
1. "Buffer cars" just refers to any non shift able load that does not fall within the same or more restrictive hazmat placement chart in our form 8620 which is our hazmat book. When a train has a loaded hazmat car it can not be placed closer than the sixth car to a locomotive even if not running. That would mean if a loaded unit train of hazardous material had buffer cars at both ends that the rear car would need to be removed or repositioned to the head end if there was no DP unit. Once hazmat cars are empty they only have to be separated by one car from a locomotive even if not running.
2. Buffer cars can be any kind of freight car that does not fall within placement restrictions in our 8620 form
3. Buffer cars can be loaded or empty. If they are loaded it is usually with sand. You are correct that many buffer cars are retired hoppers. For modeling these cars " Buffer service only. Do not repair gates" is stenciled on the side of the car. Also the bottom gates are removed and welded shut.
4. There might be a buffer car at the end of the train for DP or helper service. However if the train is loaded the rear buffer must be removed or repositioned to the head end if there is no DP unit.
I hope this helps
Thanks for the information you have provided about how the Union Pacific handles buffer cars. I really appreciate it because one of my primary goals is to operate my layout like the prototype I'm modeling. Your information has helped clear up some ambiguities. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience. ...Roy
No problem, there are many more placement restrictions that the average person does not realize. I am a modeler myself and train shows I have gone to I see many "placement errors" that go overlooked. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask.
dfwswitchman x
Don't forget that a sand-loaded hopper adds weight and mass to withstand collisions better than an empty one.
I have a question - the retired hoppers with the gates welded shut - I presume they are permanently loaded (if loaded) and never carry actual cargo?
Ever since a serious derailment and tank car fire near Montgomery, WV, CSX has been running two or three covered hoppers between every group of tankers along the New River line with buffers behind the motive power and train end. There are also idler cars used when switch engines are pushing freight cars into inclosed buildings to eliminate engine exhaust in the buildings. Nice touch in a model railroad layout.
As one that used to work for UPRR:
1) Any car utilized to keep the engines(motors) away from the Hazardous Materials. Depending on the Hazmat, depends on exactly how many buffer cars have to be used.
2) Technically Any car that does not contain HAZMAT. They can be Emptys or Loads, but will usually have the same destination(or similar one).
3) See 2
4) Buffers at the"End" of the train may signify that there was a motor at that end over mountainous grade, OR that at some point, the train may have been or have to be pulled from that end for some reason.
1. A car placed between the locomotive, special freight (like a crane or back hoe), passenger equipment, or the end of train, and a dangerous car, be it a dangerous commodity, a load prone to shift, or what have you.
2. At the railroad I work at, we'll use any car with some degree of body to it, such as a hopper or box car. Generally the buffer car is empty, and often owned by the railway. Either that, or, especially in local trains, a car from a different marshaling block that would wind up in the same train anyway, just in a different position.
3. Many aren't loaded at all. If they are, they're loaded with non-valuable, non-dangerous loads, such as sand or grain.
4. To protect a movement that may be approaching (or being approached) from the rear, or anything else the rear of the train may hit if it's moving in reverse.
I had never heard of a buffer car before, but context clues keyed me in. Thank you for the informative video, I enjoy listening to you.
We buffer our red fuming nitric acid unit train with a "Pukington's Syrup of Ipecac" tank car. Cheers!
To add a little background to a few areas -- Hazmat tankers are actually the most dangerous when low or empty of their load. In the Fire Service we train for these incidents often and the term used for the hazard presented by almost empty or empty takers is B.L.E.V.E. (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion). The vapor area in a low load/empty loaded explosive hazmat car is greater than when full. Liquids do not explode, their vapors do! If an accident were to happen the likely hood of external fire causing a Bleve are much higher based on the level of the cargo.
Just out of curiosity - would it be possible to reduce the risk by washing the inside of tankers by some non-flammable liquid? Or alternatively throwing some sparks at the empty wagons, so that the vaporised liquid would burn out?
There are washout procedures for maintenance but not between service runs. There are a series of relief valves that typically function properly and you'll see off gassing occur with possible ignition of off gassing which still keeps the cavity cool and spark free. The real issue is if/when a valve fails and pressure gets too high for the container causing a violent escape of the gas which can ignite it just from the pneumatic pressure escaping (only with highly volatile chemicals) or post escape ignition. The devastation from just a 20 gal propane tank is super scary, but there are examples (I think you can youtube KCFD train explosion) to see what happens when a bleve occurs.
You mean this one:
ruclips.net/video/K-tUQTw_Vtk/видео.html
That does look very scary. But my question was about intentionally letting gas out via some opening, where it is ignited with open fire - just like in old water-heating boilers like this one:
www.nj24.pl/sites/default/files/article/main/6718/junk6.jpg
Usually in the opening there is a small flame (about twice as big as candle flame) that burns the gas. Because of that any leaks that happen are - for the most part - relatively safely burned before they become dangerous. As long as the small flame is burning at lest.
Yes, that video is a good example of how powerful a bleve is. What the valves do = If there is fire from the train accident and the heat is close to a tanker, the safety valves will pop off as pressures rise in the tank. Those outside flames can/usually do ignite the plume of safety valve off gassing. If there is no flame but for some reason the pressure is high enough, the valve will still pop open and off gas without flame. Just need an ignition source. There are situations where super cooled loads (liquid oxygen and others) will pop safety valves when in hot areas with no adverse effect.
Gasoline is not what combusts. It's the vapor that does. Fun fact ethanol does not have a visible flame, and first responders have walked directly into a fire.
We called them barrier wagons in the UK. They used to be fairly common on fuel trains and trains carrying hazardous materials. They were used for exactly the same reasons as in America, but once steam locos were retired no barrier wagons were used as a barrier between the locos and the first tank wagon. They were still used at the end of a fuel train whilst oil lamps were still being used.
We had two basic kinds retired wagons (most of them) and purpose built wagons (a few). The retired wagons would be empty and could be an open wagon or a van. On Teesside there were some purpose built barrier wagons used on hydrogen cyanide trains and other trains carrying acids.
It's nice to learn about how the America railroads operate and that it is not much different to here. I also model in N gauge, but currently am between layouts.
Hi Roy, some answers from Europe just for fun. Buffer cars here are used for the same reason, but as most of our lines are electrified, there is a chance of generating electric sparks by the connection of the locomotive and the electric line on top. Buffer cars are to maintain distance between the locomotive and the tank cars. Here mostly gondolas and flat cars are used as buffer cars, but I have already seen boxcars and even cement cars as well. All of these were 2-axle cars. These railcars are not loaded. I have never seen a buffer car at the end of a train, but in Europe all our loading and unloading equipment is designed to handle smaller consists so even a unit train will be shunted for (un)loading purposes. Dangerous goods wagons can be in mix trains here as well, but that is regulated quite strictly, for example different types (i.e. 5 LPG cars and 3 benzene cars) cannot be near each other, there has to be a certain number of axles between them. Hope this was interesting to you :)
The Pennzoil refinery in Shreveport, LA has facilities to handle 15-car blocks of TankTrain cars. These cars have a hose between cars and are loaded and unloaded from the ends without uncoupling. The valves at ends of each car are closed for transport. I have seen groups of these cars in trains going through Jefferson, TX. This arrangement makes for faster loading and unloading than individual car connections. Without a stencil or placard you would need a list to know what is in a tank car. You can get an idea based on the size of the tank. The smaller the tank the denser the product. Cars carrying bromine are about the smallest used because of its density.
Victoria, Australian prior to 1980 had rules for tank wagons and explosive wagons quite similar. There had to be at least one wagon between the loco and thw tank wagons, as well as between the brakevan (caboose) - even for shunting ( hence the rear buffer car would be useful). As always modern rules may be different now as there is less tanker traffic on our railways these days. IT also varied from state to state here. It add to operation say if you pretens one tanker goes hot or defective and you need to switch it out, or and another posted, the sand empties and you need to find another buffer van. Here in Victoria they used any van/wagon. Interesting topic!
I found your videos through the suggested videos in wargaming terrain building videos. I've never built a model railroad before, but these videos are incredibly interesting, and your layout is fantastic. Coming from wargaming, where terrain can often be quite cobbled together, seeing something that fits together so nicely is really something to behold.
Hmm, that's interesting. Thanks so much. I never thought about the comparisons between model railroading and wargaming terrain models. But it does make a lot of sense, because I suspect that we use, or could use, a lot of the same techniques. In either case, we are trying to replicate something in the real world in a small space. ...Roy
Good info, consistent with my own research. I'm beginning to model steel-mill operations in HO, and buffer cars are often used between the locomotives and high-temperature loads (hot-metal and slag) there as well. I've seen buffer cars used between hot-metal cars within a train too.
Thanks for sharing this information. I really appreciate it. One of the best things about model railroading is the way we in hobby can share our knowledge and experience with each other. ...Roy
1, Buffer cars I see are either designated in buffer service, or a covered hopper filled with sand.
2, buffer cars at the end of the train are fairly common. It allows a railroad to either run the train conventional or with a tail end remote.
All God question, I've heard of buffer cars but didn't know all that....thanks for sharing 😀😋
After getting a tour of Conway yard and Conway Pennsylvania for the Boy Scouts ( the only reason we got in there was because the scoutmaster was an engineer) I asked them why they where boxcars on tanker cars he told me Norfolk Southern run these in case of an explosion or fire they pack some sort of material into the boxcars to prevent it from spreading it's a safety regulation on that railroad
Thanks so much for sharing your experience about boxcars being used as buffers. I really appreciate it. ...Roy
Very educational for me, thank you
Buffer cars are required between HAZMAT cargo, and ANY maned locomotives and/or cars, i.e. the rare caboose, or business car. The Montana Rail Link uses a box car as a buffer on their twice daily "Gas Local" trains, and as far as I know there is no load, other than tools.
Nice video BTW.
great vid roy, your last question was answered correctly always put a buffer ca on the rear for protection and or helpers if they are going to be added or for the run around,,,keep up the good work...Gary
You will see buffer cars also on military trains. You might find buffer cars between freight cars that are carrying hazardous materials like ammunition and explosives. Plus cars carrying such materials are typically in high visibilty colors and carry warning placards. You also may see buffer cars on military trains separating armored vehicles from the engines and also to the rear of the train. More often or not, you'll see flat cars acting as buffers for trains carrying armored vehicles too.
1. To maintain space from manned equipment
2. I’ve seen covered hoppers and box cars with the doors locked and sealed.
3. Empty
4. Double head service with an FRA waiver.
Hi
In fact an empty tank that recently carried petrol/gasoline or LPG is more of an explosion risk than a full one. This is because of the oxygen in the air mixing with the fumes.
To be sure, the risk of leakage is lower, but the risk of explosion from a stray spark can be higher
That’s interesting. Thanks for sharing this information. ...Roy
Additionally, some railroads require buffer cars between mixed manifest when tankers are present for several reasons. Typically a buffer car is loaded with paper or sundry retail items of low value - if they are loaded at all. They are placed before and after tanker units so that when sorting out at the yard, the switcher will not have to retrieve a buffer car to sort the tanker. Buffer cars are ultimately there for the safety of crews working around them. Accidents happen (cars being humped down the wrong track, handbrakes failing ect.) that could cause a massive issue if a tanker was even left in a yard without buffer cars. One last thing - Tankers do not get humped because of the potential for explosions.
Yes rear buffer cars are used in case of a rear end collision. Saw a vid of Euro(Dutch, I think) collision wher the train was on a siding, & the other one was either misguided or struck the rear tank car because it hadn't cleared the switch completely.
Buffet cars are where they sell food and drink. Oh, BUFFER cars!
Ha!!! Good one, Justin! I love it! ...Roy
UP Engineer here.
Heres my answers to your questions.
1: Buffer cars are any non hazardous or any car that does not have an internal combustion engine (reefer car) that is used to create distance between a hazardous load and a source of fire (a diesel engine on a locomotive) or an occupied car (caboose or business car)
2: Most any car can be used as a buffer. Exceptions are cars like reefer cars due to the internal combustion engine, any car with a shiftable load such as pipe that can shit and penetrate a tank. Most buffers are boxcars or hopper cars.
3: most buffer cars are loaded with sand or gravel. But a boxcar full of tv’s can be used if thats all there is available.
4: you would only find a buffer car at the rear of a train if there was a DP engine shoving on the rear. If there is no DP unit, the buffer car should be moved to the head end to protect the locomotives.
And to answer a 5th question:
Buffer cars are not just for unit trains. Hazmat carried by general manifest trains also have to have protection for their dangerous loads. Its not as obvious as a unit train but hazmat on a manifest train is placed in certain spots in a train to protect the load, and the crew. For example, you may see a load of bleach and a load of ammonia on a train together. When mixed, those chemicals create a deadly toxic cloud. In the case of a derailment and a breach of the cars, it creates a deadly situation. So you may see between these cars, various cars of other commodities or emptys.
Bistineau Southern Railroad I work for csx and agree with you. Just gonna add to #4 on some of our ethanol trains we have buffers on both ends because they have to be run around. We run around the train and deliver too a short line. Some FRA waver allows one buffer on each end.
Bistineau Southern Railroad Thanks for the information. If I may ask you something a little unrelated, is there a benefit to running a pusher or two at the rear of the train vs putting all the locomotives up front?
it creates a way for you to control the slack better in hilly territory
Old cabooses re designated as a buffer car? A shame so many were cut up.
Glad you came to comment, I was going to point out the same thing. Along that thinking I doubt that water is ever used as a buffer car load as Roy theorized. Not only is water highly reactive with some dangerous goods, water mixed with any flammable liquid would seriously exacerbate the situation. This is the same reason you don't use water to fight a flammable liquid fire it just spreads the fire around.
Thanks Roy as always for sharing. I do use buffer cars but I don't have to explain why and how because we both are on the same page far as for operations. I do use 2 buffer cars on my trains, the buffer car on the rear is for protection in the event of a rear end collision or if a rear-end helper (DPU) unit is added. Once again Roy you rock and yours vids are totally awesome.
I really appreciate your comment about buffer cars, Terrell. Like most other model railroaders, I seek to replicate the way real trains operate. Thanks for sharing your experience. ...Roy
We have mixed freight at our local live rail yard so there is a mix of cars and tankers. Some we started calling "push-me-pull-you"s. In essence, 2 lead engines and at least a single but sometimes double engines at the end of the train. They don't happen often so it's a real treat to see them. The hazardous cargo coming through our town is sodium hydroxide in tankers that seem to be grouped in strings of 4 with hopper cars, wood/timber, gondolas, boxcars, or flats between the strings. Occasionally, we get tankers holding HFCS (high fructose corn syrup), milk, or heated asphaltum. That's rare to see them, but a treat when we do. Gondolas will carry scrap metal, or be empty. The open top hoppers carry, grain, sand, or gravel. Flats carry rebar or pipes that are 18" or more. The boxcars may be empty or carry a manifest. On very rare occasion, tankers have come through with titanium white aboard. The vast majority of our trains are Norfolk Southern but we've seen a smattering of other lines including Canadian Pacific engines, CSX, and BNSF. The ends of our trains tend to have boxcars, gondolas, or flats with a FRED (we call them winky-blinks) attached. I know we got goofy names for some cars or types of trains, but it makes it easy for us to talk about what we've seen in our rail yard and the local model RR club knows what we're describing when we get together. The HO scale enthusiasts take it to realistic levels when running their trains, but the other N-gaugers are more for the fun of running a train.
Thanks so much for describing the action in your local live yard. I really enjoyed reading your comment, and I love the names you give to certain car types. ...Roy
Roy, for my own research I've been following very long tank car trains in southern California and I've started to see a lot of these trains now have 2 buffer cars on the front of the train. One buffer car on the rear of the train and then d.p.u.'s. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Thanks, Chris. That good to know. ...Roy
I shall be watching this one with interest Roy. Another great topic to raise. Cheers, Bob
Thanks for watching, Bob. And there's another video coming tomorrow morning about rail fanning on my layout. ...Roy
Buffer cars were also used on the end of trains when cabooses were still used for the same reason as using one between an engine and the tank cars. Railroads also used buffer cars, sometimes several, between locomotives and cabooses when hauling stock cars, for similar, obvious reasons. Especially during the summer.
I have learned a lot about buffer cars. Thank you from a Scotsman.
Ah! Very well presented!
I've actually seen buffer cars used for a different, but similar purpose, on Welsh narrow gauge quarry lines, where a few empty cars are put between the locomotives and the gunpowder cars - Same with Civil War artillery equipment on flatcars as well.
great video and nice layout. I know this is 3 years old but I was just reading now that BLET and NTSB is now pushing for a 5 car buffer between train crew and hazmat cars
Sir, for realism you really need to find a few vandals to mess up that pretty black paint on your tankers
Thanks, Bobby. I need to weather all of my rolling stock. ....Roy
Bobby Paluga. True. Have you noticed the decline of artistic merit in the efforts of todays vandals? Our civilization must indeed be declining.
I'll be willing to go in with a set of sharpies haha
Watching the graffiti is half the fun of watching the train go by - but you have to wonder what makes someone spend hours or days creating works of legit art that are going to be destroyed when the cars are serviced.
Phylis Maddox I think I carved my name on the trunk of the neighbors huge oak tree that's about it for vandalism, and I have zero art skill so painting train cars is not my cup of tea. I wonder why the railroad get so crazy about freight Hoppers yet do nothing or next to nothing to stop vandals painting cars. Once in a while you see something impressive but most often the efforts of the painters is simple vandalism. Yes, I know freight hopping is trespassing as is painting, and many commentators on the Hopper videos claim their concern is that that RR would be sued for the death or injury of a hopper. No such lawsuit has been won for the hopper or their families, in fact I couldn't find that any such suit has been filed going back to the 70's
One thing to be considered is if the hazmat cars are loaded or empty. On the Class 1 I work for, 1 buffer car is required for empty hazmat but 5 are required for loaded hazmat cars, if the cars are available.
Many people say the 5 buffer car rule is outdated because it was put in place in a time where locomotives used friction bearings. These bearings were very susceptible to failure, which would result in them heating up, throwing sparks, starting fires, melting down, etc. . Locomotive design has changed a lot over the years and friction bearings are no longer used.
If the hazmat is mixed between loaded and empty, the loaded cars have to be behind the empty ones.
I doubt that is accurate, but if it is it isn't well thought out. While intact the railcars sufficiently protect their contents. Someone will likely point out the PRV but that is an infinitely low risk. The risk these rules mitigate is the product being heated by the engine and operator health, both during catastrophic release.
Roy, I didn't know about this aspect of trains, thanks 😎👌👍!
i like that your trains have realistic speeds. it make it look great!
Thanks, Rex. I hope to do a video on running out trains at prototypical speeds in the near future. ...Roy
Very informational thanks
Thank you for another informative video. Here in BNSF country buffer cars are also used on ethanol/gasoline trains. I have even witnessed buffer cars on a unit pipe train. (my only RUclips upload so far, for instance).
thanks Roy, great info
Great video ... Very interesting ... Thanks ...
I really like your videos and your railroad layout
Also. Do you have any signals and signs on your railroad?
Most RRs have always had rules that tank cars carrying hazardous materials cannot be placed next to locos or cabooses. Check an old RR rule book if you're interested.
The problem with today's ethanol and oil trains is not the liquid; but the gases above it. Tank cars are only filled about half-way (you can see that on a cold, frosty day. . .); the rest is air and fuel fumes kept under pressure to prevent creation of more fumes. Liquid fuels burn like candle wax, yet their fumes are very unstable.
Airplanes now have "oxygen scrubbers" in their tanks to remove enough oxygen ("inerting"), so explosions can't happen. That could be accomplished in RR tank cars too, but it adds to the cost. I guess it's cheaper to have the occasional conflagration than inert the tanks in the first place.
Nice work Roy informative as always....keep it up.
Actual start of video at 2:05
Thank you for your time and info
Thanks for the great questions..I always wonder too.. thanks for sharing and keep up the great work.. Lance
In BNSF country, BNSF used special Buffer cars hat are ribbed side 3-bay hoppers that way Buffer Car Service only. However, in Montana Rail Link land, which is a class 2 railroad, just use old boxcars for a buffer.
Solid info as usual !
Great info
Shot a video today of NS using 2 coal hoppers as buffers, front and rear.
Never knew any of that. Great video.
Thanks, Jerry. It's always a pleasure to share the hobby. ...Roy
Nice info. Thanks for sharing.
Good info learned a lot.
Ooohhh the model railer is getting recommended again
Thank you for the information
The trains that I see going by my house (everyday) all use the closed hopper cars on tank car loads. Most of our tankers are carrying ethanol, which is being produced here locally.
I am modeling the San Diego Surfline in n scale where all kinds of trains pass there! Some of the tracks are 10 feet from the beach in San Clemente, CA!
Good topic, Roy.
On the rear - envisage if you will, the likelyhood of a mishap - part way along - a spillage or fire? On the rear would enable the car to be left standing whilst its neighbours were removed from the hazard both forward and back safely by recovery loco units. In UK, buffer cars are termed barrier wagons. In steam days, multiple empty, usually wooden wagons would be used between highly flammable or potentially explosive loads - often in pairs, at various points for just that purpose as dictated by the operating manager and rules of the line company. I have a 1933 rule book for the Southern Railway (UK) from which I will try and dig out the exact wording and rules at some point for you. There were also additional rules for operations in war time to cover the eventuality of attack from the air.
BNSF and UP run DPU on crude and ethanol trains out West. I've even seen monster BNSF unit ethanol trains over Tehechapi running 3x3x3
Thanks for your comment, Aaron. The tank car trains I've seen have not had DPU's, but thanks for sharing your observations. I appreciate it. ...Roy
Great video
I love your videos! -Drayton
Buffer Cars are also used in the end of local tank car moves to protect the brakeman/crew member and provide a platform for said crew member.
TRAIN SHIPS i subscribed to your channel
I just discovered your videos, and they are really nice! You have that voice thats soothing.
Thank you, Trainman, that's very nice of you to say. ...Roy
We in the UK used to use "barrier" wagons for much the same purpose, most common on gunpowder and volatile freight consists and still used on transporting nuclear flasks but tanker consists are just loco's and tanks and because they are all braked we don't even run brake vans anymore and go as fast as 75mph but our freight trains are minnows compared to the giants in the US and Canada, I think our "record" passenger train was a Royal Navy movement train to Grimsby which had 22 coaches and the steam 9f 2-10-0's were rated to pull forty short unbraked coal wagons with the 9f remaining one of our strongest engines ever but still not getting close to some of them monster engines over there hehe
Yeah.. in America the horns will make you DEAF... those weak baby horns in Europe are nothing compared to the American Nathan K5LLA air horn often used on the EMD SD70ACe... oh and fact... those class 66 engines over there... were built in the US... most locomotives are built here... we export to India, Brazil, the UK... and so on... you should see the GE BB40-9W exports to Brazil!
As far as I know most of the UK class 66s (the first 250) were assembled in London, Ontario, Canada.
Um... no GE and EMD is American who did you hear that from?
I heard about class 66s being built in Canada from several sources but I can only find the Wikipedia entry at the moment:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_66
Found also the Dutch fan site:
class66.railfan.nl/
Check out their history section.
such interesting content..I'll have to check back on this video in the future to read the comments about this subject..Tom
Thanks for watching and commenting, Tom. I appreciate it. ...Roy
The BNSF line by my house hosts mostly manifest trains and I can assure you that there are a LOT of single tank cars in manifest trains. From the BNSF tank trains I have seen, the FMC covered hopper seems to be their favorite. I think it might be because they have a lower center of gravity and thus have less risk of derailment. It also seems like they are readily available-I don't see many of them around hauling grain. Those are just my observations.
Aren't buffer cars also used at the end to buffer against a rear collision or backing up accident?
Yes, they are. I discuss buffer cars at the end of trains starting at minute 4:48 in the video. ...Roy
On the last question, another common reason is the for the purposes of dividing consists at destination points. That is, if a train is shipping a consist of cars destined for more than one location. A tractor will come from behind to pull a consist apart to make two.
Thanks, Philip. I appreciate your comment. What you say makes sense to me. That is, a buffer car on the rear of the train will facilitate switching when parts of the train are bound for subsequent destinations. ...Roy
I been buying antique train engines (stream and diesel engines) I just seen this video on utube and man it helps
Thanks, Timothy. I appreciate your comment. ...Roy
nice video, good to see you online...rodger [altos del maria]
Thanks, Rodger. It's always tons of fun to share the hobby. ...Roy
Hi Roy. I enjoy your videos and always come back to them when I'm searching for "how-to" n scale information. I like your n scale layouts, especially your background murals. I have created a 27" x 48" layout and a mural would be a good addition. Do you create those or what sources/companies sell n scale murals? Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, my friend. I really appreciate it. I created my own background scenes, using photos taken in the area I'm modeling. They're not perfect, but I am pleased with the results and how they help to depict the location of my layout. ...Roy
Buffer cars on the rear of a train could be to make the job easier on the train crew. If a train is using the same power to head in both directions, having one buffer car right behind the locomotives would require the crew to run around the buffer car to get the locomotives at the front.
on the East Penn railroad, it is common to have two old boxcars with bags of gravel, at both ends.
The KCS uses gondolas as buffer cars on their Unit Train of refined products from Beaumont, Tx to Mexico.
I think the only only time i've ever seen this used in this format is when it is pushed into a fueling depot, though depending on length will depend on how many helpers and power units are needed..
i think it is somewhere between 55-75 cars for the requirement for supplemental power and air units are added as for sand, blue metal or water might be used in buffers depending on the cargo type..
as the name implies they are designed as a shield of sorts between the loco and the fuels..
typical i would think closed wagons full of sand bags, hoppers filled with sand blue metal or ballast or water..
typical rail consists will likely 100-250 cars on the low end, and between 450-2,500+ cars on the high end of the service and the destination will generally set the overall length of the consist no matter what is in the tanks whether it diesel, avgas, lpg, unleaded, and all other explosive products that are shipped via rail..
length of cars will dictate where and when power units will be placed in the consist given the power and air brake limits on the reality of physics..
ithink i already addressed this with you some time ago in terms of car to loco limits if you going to do a to scale haul of what is seen in the real world in rail hauling..
Interesting... Also, great "N" Scale layout. Surprised to see N Scale is still around after all of these years. Figured HO scale would have taken over. Also, interesting to see the old "Kadee" couplers are still around or at least that's what they called them when I was a teen model railroader in the 1970s.
Oh, N-scale is much more than "still around." It's actually flourishing and becoming more popular everyday. In some countries such as Japan, it far exceeds HO scale in popularity. Check it out in any online train store, and you will see that it nearly equals HO scale in availability of products. and its quality has improved dramatically in recent decades. I bought my first N-scale loco in the late 1960's. Back then, it was junk. But now, I would never go back to HO. ...Roy
P.S. Those "Kadee" couplers are actually Micro-Trains couplers made by the same folks who make HO Kadee couplers.
Thanks... I appreciate the feedback...
n scale is the 2nd biggest selling scale out there and has grown big since 1990
I've just learned that from Roy... In the 70s it was still kind of "clunky" looking compared to "HO".
quality of both have improved and it comes down to which size suit a person
Yes its true i did more research and it's not just water but they also use fire retardant. And I'm 13 i have never worked on a railroad
Another question this brings to my mind, is storage in a yard. Do incompatible products need to be spaced out from each other? I used to be a HazMat responder and I know that a major yard in Toronto had a siding for HazMat cars that were high risk, damaged or actually leaking to separate them from everything else. This used to make us chuckle as it was directly beside a lumber yard and a fuel depot.
Yes and no. No is for several reasons, the yard is considered restricted limits, meaning that the risk of slamming cars together or derailing is minimal, or more controllable if something does happen vs a train derailing on the mainline at 40+ mph. Another reason is yards are obviously used for train break up, make up and storage, so splitting cars by commodity isnt really possible due to lack of track space. The other reason is in most yards, certain tracks are used for certain jobs (destinations). So, say 1 track is where the west bound will be built, and 2 track is where the east bound will be built. Think of it as a reserved parking spot, so since its reserved you dont have much room to be able to pick and choose what else can go where.
The yes side of it is like what you stated. Theres some cars that are so dangerous that they have to be kept together and away from other cars. Take this for example, an industry I used to service took chemical pellet hoppers, and they also took tanks that they filled with floor water (nasty water run off from cleaning their equipment). Well this chemical pellet that they took, if introduced to water would turn into a poisonous vapor cloud, so those chemical cars had their own storage track that was barricaded and even roofed, and we were never allowed to handle those cars if we had the floor water tanks on us in case if they were to leak, or the hatch on top was open and a hard joint caused water to splash out. So in some cases like that, yes they will be sluffed to their own track away from other cars, but for the most part in a switching yard, theyll all be mixed together. Acid next to ethanol, ect.
Thanks for the input!
I don't think it's permissible under the rules to run trains with different materials in the consist that react negatively with each other. A unit train is, by definition, a train consisting of all one load.
lokisgodhi It's permissible in mixed freight as long as they're separated by however many buffers are needed per hazmat placement within the train. Correct, unit trains are all one type of load, ethanol, grain, coal ect, but mixed freight is a whole other ball game. As long as the cars are separated by the correct number and placement of buffers there's not really an issue.
I wish there was a way to post our hazmat switching placement section, it breaks it down all the way to the UN codes and deeper on what can be next to what, what can't be on the rear of the train and so on. Makes for some brain busting switching when you've got a lot of mixed danger cars to add to your train. Lol
I believe a tanker with an x at the end of its designation, for example GATX, it's a hazardous or flammable material.
There is a video of a ride on an air force rail line to retrieve tanker cars of jet fuel. The air force engines had a couple of ancient flat cars as buffers.
Fascinating!
Here in Australia, tank cars (aka bombs) run regularly in standard freight trains. But I think that has something to do with their being relatively few, but huge, “trunk” lines spanning the country. We also have the occasional *molasses* train that if you’re lucky enough to be standing near, smells AWESOME. I’ve only ever seen these a couple of times though. m.ruclips.net/video/r6CrI8d5m5M/видео.html
Australia has a totally different transportation demand. Importing mostly finished oil products, you get them delivered to the closest port. In the US the large unit trains connect oil fields to refineries and refineries to industry and large distribution hubs. In Australia you have the large ore and coal trains.
For a model I would likely not do buffer cars filled with water. or at lest mark those cars differently than the rest of the train for better visual effect.
My name is Phil and I was a loco engineer for CONRAIL over here on the east coast in New Jersey. You have to look at the book of rules for your prototype railroad to get the exact answer that you are looking for. I will tell you the rules we ran by out here.
The rule states. spacer cars must be used betweeb engine and hazerdous placarded cars WHEN TRAIN LENGTH PERMITS....That meains if you have non hazardus cars in your train consist you must put SIX of them on the headend. If your train does not have any non placarded cars in it you do not put any as a buffer. No railroad is going to run cars that do not have to be transported anywhere.
Next, the only cars you could not use are empty container cars or flat cars.We have a rule that no empty flats or container cars can be in front of 5000 tons or more of train.
Next, I have never read a rule about havng to have a spacer on the rear of a placarded train. I have done helper service and we never gave another thought to having a spacer and if there were a rule you would need SIX non placarted cars the same as headend right.
Next, spacers do not have to be loaded. Hoppers, covered hoppers, gons tanks or box cars are all good as long as they are not placared.
Now before I get reemed for what sounds totaly redicules, I had an oppertunity to speak with a FRA man that happened to be in the yard office that I was working that day. I asked him about the spacer rule spacificly the If train lenght permits part. He just chuckeled and said its to make the PUBLIC feel safe and not the railroad. That is the gods truth......
You may be able to find a Union Pacific Book Of Rules on ebay cheap. Hope this helps. Phil from Tomtomracing.com
Thanks for your comment, Phil. I want you to know how much ai appreciate hearing from a real engineer, because the information you share helps me run my layout in a more prototypical manner. I will have to look for the Union Pacific book of rules as you suggest. ...Roy