[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- BIG IRON
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Music used:
TF2 OST - Petite Chou-Fleur, Right Behind You
Sly 2 OST - Paris, Museum, Clockwerk Assembly, Canada, Dimitri Club
Clips used:
Bad Weapon Academy: Red Tape Recorder
Avatar: The Last Airbender
TF2: Annoying Spies - STAR_
the history of the entire world i guess - Bill Wurtz
TF2: You Shouldn't Be There - STAR_
TF2: Ambassador vs Revolver - Tests and Comparison - a Woolen Sleevelet
Unstoppable - TF2 Spy Frag Movie - Raelyn
How it FEELS to play Spy in TF2 - LazyPurple
![[TF2] Spy's Best Weapon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jvfA553xnck/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Spy's Best Weapon](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Dalokohs Bar](/img/1.gif)
This made me realize I kind of wish I using the amby anyway because it's more fun. I admit I kind of of blindly accepted the nerf as too much (and l'etranger's buff too great) and moved on. You've convinced me to brush it off for real, unless I ever miss a shot in which case it's back to l'etranger
Hi there
Ello Purple Man
Probably should have mentioned the fun factor in there somewhere. I've had a few people point out that there were a few times where a headshot was unnecessary and I could have just gone for Revolver bodyshots, but the dopamine receptors in my brain disagree.
I hope you are doing good man
Hello all mighty purple
“You are Automatically at an advantage if they are unaware of you”
Jose Gonzalez 2004 begs to differ as he dodges every shot from behind without any effort or knowledge of the spy being there
*Not Pictured:*
Jose.Gonzalez.2004 landing 4 consecutive headahots on 2 cloaked spies, another Sniper, and xXx_Killer_DemoMain_420_xXx
Everyone knows Jose Gonzalez 2004 mastered ultra instinct long ago, you can't use him as an example >:(
May I ask what this joke about "Jose Gonzalez 2004" is? I've seen it around before, but never had the context. Was he an infamous hacker? Or just someone that was infamously lucky?
@@projekt2745
"Jose Gonzalez 2004" is a running gag from Soundsmith TF2 videos.
As you guessed, it's a new player who's incredibly lucky. In most cases, it refers to a sniper who is somehow topping the leaderboards despite not knowing most of the game controls. In the most extreme cases, Jose Gonzalez 2004 doesn't even know what game he's playing, yet there he is, dodging all enemy fire and accidentally going on a 12-man killstreak.
Its so much harder for me to kill people if they don’t know where I am. They just happen to move out of my crosshair at the perfect moments like everyone i fight is Mr. Miyagi
What really stuck with me was "why do you care about dps? You're a fucking pick class."
That really just makes sense to me. It's about getting the one and only shot you need. Not doing more per clip but needing more time that spy just doesn't get most of the time.
That's like, the most important line of this video. Spy's DPS almost doesnt matter at all because, if a spy is shooting at you, chances are he's looking down the barrel of whatever much more powerful gun youre carrying.
Agree, like what the fuck you are doing for the dps to matter?
You always should be fighting light classes or enemies so weakened 2 quick shots will do the job
Why do you play demoman as a melee class with a shield?
Why do people play sniper as a frontline class with the bow and bushwacha?
We call these things subclasses, and DPS Gunspy is something some of us actually want.
@@Tjprower demoknight has whole ass builds and items that actually support the subclass, bow and bushwacha are whole ass builds and synergies that support the subclass. Gun spy is literally just that a spy with a gun there's no synergy, nothing, it's not a "sideclass"
@@Tjprower Okay then just use the diamondback even if it goes to the nerf many people want with just minicrits instead of full crits then use that. Also sure it's a "Subclass' but unlike the other 2 subs you mentioned valve purposefully made those for a reason DPS gun spy is just a accident due to the diamondback being so op which is why when they actually cared for the game they nerfed the ambassador which is literally valve saying they do NOT want spy played that way if you want to go ahead but even valve is trying to teach players not to. It's a lot like fatscout, valve doesn't really want it but people still go out of the way to do it even though it's playing the class "wrong" but not as much of a problem.
While I admittedly have a more 2nd hand perspective on this, it seems to me that despite the Ambassador and the L'tranger being as close to polar opposites as spy's revolvers go, they have something notable in common: they both bolster one half of spy's gameplay, picks with the Ambassador and stealth with the L'tranger.
And then you have the diamondback that hampers you in exchange for crits
And the enforcer that just hampers you (good training pistol tho)
@@angrydragonslayer enforcer is good for killing wrangled sentry’s vac meds DR spies razorback snipers. It’s mainly used for killing wrangled guns but enforcer actually has more of a place in the meta than amby at least in regards to highlander.
What half of gameplay?
@@aimboat709 in what scenario would it make sense to shoot a wrangled sentry?
Vac med... Is valid, assuming you're not in front of their pocket and actually need to shoot the med for your team
Dr spies.... It doesnt actually work on the cloak resistance
Razorback... Just use ambi... Or db.... In most scenarios where you'd fight one where the 30% lower ttk matters, you'll not have your disguise up and then it's worse than stock
@@highmedic2351 1st Half: picks
2nd Half: Stealth
"The people I run into are already hurt to some extent"
Preach this! This goes for EVERY class. You can't model every single interaction in this game around classes at full health. This is why I take the Shahanshah seriously as a Sniper melee: not every Sniper matchup is going to be full health Sniper vs full health Spy/Scout. Maybe a Soldier bombed you and only has 80 health left, that actually sounds pretty common as a matchup
Why not just 2 shot them with the revolver then?
This is actually the reason why I use the Solemn Vow as a Medic. I know which enemies I can kill and which ones I can't.
@@Sparkz1607 I respect that m8
@@Sparkz1607 The Solemn Vow is kinda underrated actually, mostly because the blatantly OP Ubersaw exists.
The Vow lets you know when to stand and fight vs when to cut and run, and as a class that can't fight too well on his own like Med, that's a really good upside.
Glad to see more players taking the Vow's utility seriously and making the most of it.
By this logic, the enforcer is good then, and you can't argue otherwise.
I returned to TF2 in the last week and I found that I finally warmed up to this weapon. I guess it takes a pair of fresh eyes to appreciate the Ambassador, and to appreciate GunSpy in general. Seriously, if you train your accuracy and have any amount of patience, this is a worthwhile weapon. Thank you Fish, the community needs some non-meme takes on this weapon
They need better takes on most weapons
now try out The Classic
Bro how tf is your comment 14 hours old
@@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054 Something something memebership allows early viewing
How is this 15 hours ago?
“In Defense of the Ambassador”
Out of the context of TF2, it could be mistaken for something political
in defense of russian ambassador
Or about the game coup
Diplomatic immunity, go!
Some debates in tf2 have the same energy of debating politics so it makes sense.
I played this one game, got a A.I I got to name, named her Anarchy someone asked if I liked her. . .
“Ah yeah of course I like anarchy!”
"Everything changed when the fire nation attacked"
-The amby got changed during the pyro update
I see what you did there.
OMG YOU'RE SO INTELLIGENT BRO,HOLY SHIT!
No
@@dubhog lighten up man. It was a subtle joke. Acknowledging it is fun.
That Dr. Bright is a spy!
@@codemeister1369 doesn't look like it to be honest
also lost possibility for a r/woooosh
@@dubhog That's... Not how r/whoosh works?
I remember I was on a highlander team in like 2014, way pre nerf, and the spy on our team actually used the default revolver. His reasoning was that, on HL, his job is Medic elimination. If he can't get in backstab range, then the default is much easier and faster to kill the medic. The Amby just barely gets the 150 with a headshot and bodyshot, but the Medic's regen sometimes scuffs that math. The revolver has a much more consistent three hit kill, with a lot more room for regen.
"INSERT MEET THE SNIPER THEME" Professional had standats
The Ambassador nerf was a blessing in disguise long-term. Imagine the current bot crisis, except the bots can turn invisible, disguise as the enemy team, and fake their death.
Yeah. Sounds like it *sucks,* doesn't it?
Don't forget the part where they spam the "your mother" voiceline after each environmental kill
That type of bot would be way worse then the sniper bots we already have because it can't instakill
Can you image if we have aimbot spies with pre nerf ambassador and pre nerf dead ringer, Jesus Christ that would frustrating or god for bid the 2013-2017 Darwin danger shield with aimbot snipers
for a long time i assumed the ambie nerf was because of hacking spies
50% of hackers i'd met in game pre jungle inferno were ambassador spies
49% snipers
and one direct hit soldier that thought he was so slick and undetectable cause he was using the direct hit even though he'd spin wildly while shooting and kept killing people directly behind him
@@ha2kon539 It's a bit easy to say now that the Ambassador would be worse than a Sniper Rifle for the bots, but the Sniper Rifle actually doesn't have that much of a difference for attack interval at best, and is actually *worse* overall.
Ambie spies aiming at a Heavy takes 3 shots to kill assuming each shot was a headshot. At .6s per attack, it'd take 1.8s to kill, compared to 1.5 for the Sniper assuming zero charge, and even then it'd need to charge for a bit to actually meet the 300 damage threshold for a headshot to cleanly kill, so it'd actually take longer for the sniper bot to kill than the hypothetical ambie bot.
I cannot wait until somebody makes a compilation of FishStick saying “L’etranger”
You can be that person if you really wanna be
@@valkie9781 yeh i know maybe some day
The damage scaling wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be (although the “random” nature of it sucks).
Another benefit people miss out is that refire time. This technically makes The Ambassador reset its refire spread faster than other revolvers. (This is why, despite being an accurate weapon, revolvers miss quite a few times when you hold down the fire button.)
To be fair, the default crosshair doesn’t really help with that :/
it's 1/4th of a second faster (0.250s)! Wow! Come on dude.
@@DuckieMcduck It's also gradual.
So waiting a millisecond or two will make your next shot more accurate.
@@VagueCastle649 I cannot tell if this is sarcasm. If you're comparing the difference with other revolvers, then a gradual difference in milliseconds means nothing. If it wasn't a gradual difference, it would still mean nothing because the average human reaction time is roughly the same amount of tiny time which also means close to nothing in practice.
Then use the enforcer it’s got the same recharge time, doesn’t have a savage penalty and is just better than the current ambi because unless your using the YER could could disguise and take out targets like snipers far easier
I don't know why but it feels like people forget that Spy can SEE ENEMY HEALTH and since he has the positioning tool known as the Invis Watch and Disguise Kit to get where he needs to be and when. He knows that he can kill anyone below 100 health at mid-range. Spy being able to see enemy health is the entire point of his class, it's so when you're invisible and see a potential target you can go "they're weak! nows my chance!". Not for a frag montage where you run in with the sickest trickstab (though that is fun).
Though if I'll be frank, I'm of the belief that Spy should still be rewarded in some form from hitting the head at long range, so I'd have the minimum crit damage this weapon can deal be effective at any range instead of having this invisible wall where crits on headshots no longer work.
“They’re weak nows my chance” your chance for what? They still would have been dead from a backstab either way and trying to gun them off would get you absolutely VIOLATED if they (or their team) realizes you’re there
@@okey6470 Okay maybe I didn’t phrase it right the first time
Spy can see enemy health and he can cloak to where he’s behind enemies and basically gets the first hit in
The Ambassador if aimed properly turns surpasses Spy’s maximum damage on the first hit from around 40 to 50-102 depending on the distance away from your target.
Seeing any target at 100 health or below allows the Spy to decloak, dispatch them in a single shot and then cloak again. A ranged backstab that deals much less damage but doesn’t put you in the range of other enemies.
Spy is a pick class. The Ambassador is a picking orientated sidegrade.
Hell even if it doesn’t kill the enemy, that 100 damage ain’t nothing to scoff at and can easily result in an assist kill.
@@krysys9703 >Seeing any target at 100 health or below allows the Spy to decloak
Is that like an unspoken rule of engagement? As far as I know first you have to see if you're not going to melt as soon as you decloak from someone else looking at you or hearing the cacophony of the decloak noise. Besides that, what the ambi does in 1 shot, the revolver does in 2, and faster. What exactly is the advantage? You can cloak 0.3 second faster on the one shot?
@@GabrielAKAFinn The enemy can't retaliate if they're dead. Also the argument you're making about decloaking isn't revolver dependant it's invis watch slot dependant and is it's own skill independent from the ambassador
@@krysys9703 It's not dependent on you at all. This is one of the reason why spy sucks so much. It's entirely dependent on the environment, IE, the spy can only gun "pick" if the target is literally alone, close, hurt AND unaware. In this situation, who cares if you take one amby shot, or two revolver shots?
The ambassador is real good for stab whiffs on light classes. The damage your butterknife does is enough to allow you to oneshot them with the amby. And since your already in close range cause you fucked up the stab all you need to do is just land the shot.
or you could just reliably three shot the light class with the revolver, yk better than gambling a backstab
@@rettwat yeah, but is that REALLY as cool as that sweet *102 CRITICAL HIT*
@@shagarumedic debatable
@@rettwat and very likely die before getting all 3 shots off, do you really not think deleting them before they have the chance to fight back at all has value?
@@ralphthejedimaster you dont die instantly unless there are shit tons of classes nearby, but why even suicide for the kill there its just a waste of your life
The razorback might not be a hard counter to spies, but when a razorback sniper is in a sentry's sightline, it gives me a headache. Especially when you decide to ignore the sniper to focus on the engineer, or the other classes, and he ends up headshotting you before you get a stab. This happens way too often, and it's bs
Add that one pyro who unironically enjoys to babysit the engineer
I get that it's a noble thing to do such teamwork instead of trying to get kills, but when you play Spy it just looks like the enemy pyro really fucking hates you
@@bruschetta7711 they probably do, to be fair.
@@bruschetta7711 :))))
I really don’t get the dev’s thought process behind the razorback. Sniper’s weakness is supposed to be tunnelvision, so why give him a “get out of backstab free” card?
@@bageltoo well it was made in the sniper vs spy update. And alot of snipers complained about being free backstabs to spies, so thats why the razorback was made, with its counter. The Ambasador.
There's honestly two issues I've had with the ambassador nerf.
1. Sniper still gets the cqc counter, IE the Bushwacka, that you literally activate it's upsides by jarate and cleaners carbine.
2. The diamondback is literally better than stock, while the ambassador is a sidegrade now, it made the nerf pointless as it just made the diamondback the new 2 for 1 death pick.
One thing being imbalanced does not mean another thing should be imbalanced as well.
The solution to the problems you are complaining about is to nerf the bushwacka and the diamondback, not let the ambassador stay broken.
@@bhizzle64 Yeah, and I was saying that the Ambassador does need a nerf, but the problem is those two weren't nerfed, even after Blue Moon bring the final balance changes to weapons(for the better).
@@bhizzle64 Bushwacka is fine, actually. The only problem people actually have is because of Jarate and how easy is spam it.
If, let's say, jarate didn't exist, nobody would complain about the Carbine + bushwacka combo, since you need to put effort and risk with an objectively worse deffault secondary in order to get the power of the melee.
@@juansebastianpulidovelasco2195 And, to make matters worse, there are only a select few reasons not to use Jarate over any of Sniper's offensive secondaries because it's just that effective to use. When there's a huge push from the enemy team, all a competent Sniper main has to do is lob his urine jar, and suddenly that huge push gets vaporized by minicrit damage ALONG WITH a few dying to the Sniper himself. While Jarate shouldn't be removed, it should *DEFINITELY* receive a rework into how spammable it is, similar to the Mad Milk.
bushwacka sucks jesus dude, you can just gun him down out of his range
Precision was never my thing. I was always more of a empty-my-whole-clip-into-one-area sort of guy.
Chad beggars
Then I don’t really think spy is your class, because he is a pick class so pyro, heavy, or soldier come more into that style than spy
I've never liked the notion that sniper being able to one-shot most of the classes instantly at close range is balanced by the fact that it "takes skill". Sandman+cleaver combos also took skill to pull off, yet those were fucking infuriating.
Yeah, that the problem with sniper, with generous ammno pool and reloading, a good sniper can be the most frustrating thing to deal with in game. You don’t have that munch of a open until you get very close and even then, he can quick-scope your ass/head.
or how with jarate and a bushwacka the sniper can suddenly be super dangerous in melee range. It's kind of annoying how the *long range fighting* class might need to be treated like he's radioactive. It's just annoying.
It's not just that it takes skill, it's a gamble every single time
Maybe I'm just a bad sniper, but I've never had a problem with close range quickscopes specifically because there doesn't seem to be any way to consistently hit them, and (unless they're using the J&B) that's the only chance they get to instakill before they get owned
It's a bad argument. Should we bring back all of Pyro's old combos just because it took skill to pull them off? For everyone else in the game, the old combos were a massive pain to fight. It didn't even feel as if you were capable of fighting back most of the time. That reminds me of something else....
it's why I use The Classic. you can't get pissy at me if I'm using the "Worst" rifle he has. I say it's the most balanced and every kill feels earned.
I think my biggest problem is that they nerfed the ambassador but NOT the diamondback which gives you crits if you do what spy should be doing anyway. This was a very unfair nerf.
It wasn't a undeserving nerf lmao Amby needed that.
The biggest problem with the diamondback is in theory it's worse since it has limited crits, and in theory a good spy will ALWAYS have crits if the soy has good aim, but on casual any decent spy can farm f2ps for free crits
A longer reload time and half the clip would severely make the diamondback back into side grade
@@kR-qj7rw I guess I worded my original comment poorly. I agree that the ambassador nerf was deserved. What I found unfair was that the diamondback didn't get a nerf as well. I would have nerfed that weapon alongside the ambassador.
Tbf the way you'd nerf the diamondback is probably different from the way you'd nerf the ambassador, people aren't really cloaking onto rooftops with the diamondback and playing a diet sniper with higher survivabillity, they are just kind of playing better spy who does the things a spy is already supposed to do and gets rewarded for it.
@@defensivekobra3873
Like the Bazaar Bargain.
You get rewarded for basically hitting headshots, something Sniper is supposed to do, allowing you to snowball.
Personally the only thing I think is necessary to properly balance the diamondback is to give it a smaller clip, maybe 3 or 4, and have damage fall off. Though if they did those two things they should probably get rid of the minor damage penalty.
0:40
anybody gonna talk about that pyro just tanking the rockets to grasp the rhythm then FLICK AIRBLASTING out of nowhere before getting promptly shot to death??
They should make the scorch shot able to get headshots: If the enemy's head hitbox is in the blast radius, you get a guaranteed crit. Seems balanced to me
Yeah and the minicrits on burning targets should be turned to crits.
Sounds fun to fight against
Every weapon should have headshots
@@Mayflyis that seems interesting..
As long as it doesn't use bounding boxes for determining headshot hits like the Lucksman does.
I agree with the lack of counterplay and I think this is a sufficient reason to make the change.
There are two key points that I don't agree with however:
1: The Ambassador was never overpowered. The Ambassador wasn't banned in competitive and didn't make Spy any kind of must-pick class in any game mode. Spy was still overall underwhelming even with the old Ambassador.
2: People aren't mad about the Ambassador "no longer being a straight upgrade over stock" they're mad about losing a core niche that the weapon once had (the long range damage option). It was a fun option and it's sad to see it be outright removed from the weapon.
the real problem was with the dead ringers spammability it was stupidly annoying dealing with spies that could just instant recharge, the amby with the dead ringer was annoying.
"Amby has less dps"
Ah yes that's why HEAVY is the best class in the game because of his high dps and not sniper
102 damage on spy is really gud
people aways fail to realise that at longer range it gets exponantially harder to hs with the amby. as a sniper, yes you have tunnel vision but, you have a zoom.
Hey, that's me who got you at 13:40! :D
I think I remember that match. You and the other spies made our whole team so paranoid. Great video by the way. Love this game and the people who still play it.
"Spy and Sniper are countered by communication"
Gee if only that existed in pubs.
The ambassador doesn't need a defense, it's got diplomatic immunity.
Love your "In defence of" series, fantastic videos
People think dps and ttk are the same thing
the reason dps mattered was bcs spy was not played like a pick class by a lot of players in prem at the time (toast, solid, inso, etc)
and more success was found with using spy like a semi-sniper/scout (toast was season mvp for i forgot what season bcs of the gun-spy meta)
forgot who said it but someone said something about how other classes have alt play styles and valve killed the gun spy w this nerf
this
Video explained why gun spy was retarded my nigga
Yeah, you're right, but community really hate spy, they're so retarded they think spy is op cause he can kill someone sometimes. They're idots and fish server is an example of tf2 players brainless
Hah, didn't expect to see my frag vid in here. Much appreciated.
I believe you didn't really give Sniper enough credit (Highlander more or less revolves around him), and that you sort of undercut the need for DPS at times as a Spy. I would also argue as well that Ambassador wasn't objectively better than Stock back in the day. If you witnessed power Revolver players like Evan, H.A.R.D, and Grenjabob in their hay day you would've been hard pressed to say that the Revolver was a downgrade to Amby. I will always believe that Amby was a sidegrade to the Revolver. Though I personally favored the Amby, I swapped between that and the Revolver fairly commonly.
All that said though, I more or less agree with you. Amby is certainly still viable. Though I of course made use of it at long range, I will hold a certain pride in how much use I got out of it in close range compared to my peers in prem. I fully understand why it got nerfed, and I can sympathise with the idea that it was too good at what it was doing. Certain players like Toast ran fucking rough shot over HL with it. It is frustrating at certain ranges not being able to do the damage you did before, but the utility of being able to end a fight in a single shot or two is certainly still valuable in my opinion. To that end, I was probably the only Spy that used the weapon in the last HL Nations Cup. I found moderate success with it, got me out of a few tough pinches.
My only gripe is that I wish there wasn't an arbitrary range where headshots straight up stopped working. Aside from that, I still find the weapon fun to use and gotten my exquisite share of dopamine from it in my last few videos. I miss the glory days of no-speed boost DR and old Amby, but what we have now is totally fine (especially considering we finally got some disguise fixes. Now if only they could fix the stupid fucking wallhacks on spawn).
wow people really left your comment in the dust lmfao, this is really good information and feedback. probably got lost bc it's not directly agreeing with what is said in the video lol
The ambassador's nerf needs to be reversed, especially since the Diamondback is "fine as is". The Diamondback gives the same bonus as the ambassador for virtually no downside.
I do think the Amby should get "normal" crit damage at short-to-medium range, which is then reduced to mini-crits outside of, say, 400 hammer units (and still doing non-critical damage beyond 1600 hammer units). It would allow for more consistent damage that feels less randomized.
Yeah, having the damage be affected by thresholds rather than scaling would probably be better
I feel that people calling the weapon "bad" is more of a drastic way of saying "underwhelming". The Ambassador is currently alright, but seeing as it's Spies hardest weapon to get really good with, it definitely is fair of people to want it to be reverted given that it allowed players to actually compete with amazing players. As for the "Spy shouldn't be Sniper" argument, that doesn't really mean anything since the Ambassador never made Spy into Sniper, in the same way a Demoman isn't a Soldier just because they both have explosive projectiles.
As is though, Ambassador is pretty okay, but it could definitely be much better, and if I could personally pick a weapon to make Spies best weapon, I would definitely be down to revert the weapon just for that reason.
I dont care what the amby does, I use it cuz it looks cool.
"Engravings...provide no tactical advantage whatsoever........but they look cool"
I still miss the OG ambassador. :( It was fun shooting engis through their buildings.
Now what SHOULD happen is that the Diamondback should get nerfed so that it's not basically a direct upgrade to the Ambi.
Direct upgrade to the pre-nerf ambi, you mean.
I think the stored crits idea is good- but maybe it should be changed to have an active time like the hitmans heatmaker
You know, have it be a chargable chain kill weapon that takes work to achieve the special state with
So you cant do it constantly but do have a reward for living a long time as spy
@@valkie9781 this sidestep the actual problem : crits on demand.
Can't have that on a class that can go invisible,period.
@@misteryjeux Crits on demand is kinda a stretch. You have to kill something first or sap. So not so much on demand. Again, sniper has crits on demand to, but that's his entire thing. Can he aim? Then he has Crits.
The real issue is not stored crits but the fact that you can't tell when the spies might have them. So what I would do is just do one simple thing. If you have crits, you can no longer cloak or disguise. That makes it a risk reward situation.
As Fish said, if you are un-digusied as a spy your likely dead. So now you use th vrits you earned up to fight out before cloaking again, or you can hod them and risk dropping them all, and people will see you with our crit effects they know ahead of time 'oh shi#.' and can chose to contest or retreat.
Would also make map knowledge a bigger skill for spies, as if they want to 'gun spy with it after a big chain stab or something thy would need to know how to move around without being detected without built in invisibility.
@@misteryjeux so should we remove the knife too then, or.....
Counter point, I still can't aim.
Counter point 2: I suck at cloak management without letrange.
I think part of the reason why the ambassador is so overlooked nowadays is because of the Diamondback, which basically does what the old Amby did, but is easier to use due to not needing as precise aim and rewarding Spy for doing the things Spies generally do.
As it stands, the Amby is a fine weapon, good for some situations, not good in others, a perfectly fine weapon all things considered.
The reason no one really complained that this weapon was overpowered is because it was such a popular weapon that everyone just saw all the other spy revolvers as underpowered compared to it. This is kinda the same thing that happened to the eyelander and crossbow
Even in highlander, where all the spy players are expected to have top tier aim, the ambassador still wasn't dominant.
The main thing now for me, is that the Ambassador just... doesn't *feel* good to use. The range at which it starts to lose damage feels so low, the scaling crit damage is so odd, and losing headshots at a certain range is... weird. It should just do the 54 or whatever minimal headshot damage at all ranges. That's still takes THREE headshots to kill even light classes, and gives players enough time to retaliate.
It would honestly feel better if the gun had thresholds for its damage falloff, such as 102, 90, 78, 66, 54. Buff the ranges just a touch, and boom - you've got nice, 12 damage intervals that you can work around and rely on.
You could get used to those ranges then, and feel confident knowing what sort of damage numbers you can pull off, adding a rewarding layer to the gun when combined with seeing enemy health. Right now, even though I'll *usually* do decent damage, I'm never _CONFIDENT_ in knowing what kind of damage I'm going to dish out.
I don't want the thing to be as amazing as it was before - I want it to feel *reliable.* Having your only gun feel like a slot machine ain't a good feeling!
That's fine. If you have trouble getting out your memories about the gun spy, just use the stock revolver. He didn't say you have to use the amby, he said that it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
While I do totally get your point and appreciate the more positive perspective of the gun, the notion that the ambassador has always been good in close range combat just really isn't true. Sure, there are situations when killing an enemy in a single, more precise shot can save your life over shooting them twice, but about 90% of the time, the stock revolver far outclasses the ambe for killing somebody right in your face. 20% slower firing speed and 15% less damage is a gigantic difference, worse than the L'Etranger. The reason why those close range headshot kills are in frag movies is because they're way MORE difficult to pull off than the same kill with stock. The entire point of the weapon was to give Spy range, I mean it came out in the Spy vs. Sniper update for a reason. Maybe it shouldn't deal 102 damage from any range, but I don't think that the 1200hu limit where headshots aren't possible at all was necessary. It's still super fun to run around and headshot people, but it no longer gives Spy a truly unique tool and playstyle like it once did. Giving it the ability to deal 54 from any range would at least give it that utility that stock lacks, while not being overpowered. More than 2 unscoped headshots to kill even light classes from a decent range is definitely more effort than it's worth anyways, so I think that the ambe deserves at least that.
While Spy may be a pick class, damage is damage. Basic pub spy gameplay may just be running around trying to backstab people while using your gun for emergencies, but a Spy who uses their gun proactively can easily give their team a bunch of extra damage to work off of. In that case, dps definitely does matter, and can be the difference between whether an enemy lives or dies. Consistent damage from potshots or in 1v1s is where the stock revolver thrives. While you did clarify that your point isn't to disparage stock, saying that consistent dps doesn't matter as Spy basically does exactly that.
I do honestly agree with a lot of the points you brought up, but if you're actually trying to do well as Spy, the L'Etranger and stock are both way better options almost all the time (ignoring the diamondback because that's a whole other discussion...). That's just my view and opinion on the matter though, feel free to disagree obviously, just be respectful about it.
Yea, hitting headshots at close range is hard, but hitting headshots is overall hard. And 2 against light classes "stock outclasses amby at close range" is true. 2 shots with slightly slower firing speed (1 headshot + 1 bobyshot) from amby just have better TTK (time to kill) comper to 3 shots from stock.
honestly even 54 damage at minimum at mid range, the drop off range for a lot of other classes, is pretty damn good for getting someone to back off. It's not Demo levels of mid-range damage obviously but hot damn being able to outdamage a midranged shotgun blast while *still* being hitscan with no movement penalty like a heavy's minigun, it's pretty damn good all things considered.
Imo it's still way too low, better find a better opportunity to secure the kill at a closer range, more often than not trying to get that 54 damage will get me spotted and killed in a matter of nanoseconds
@@bruschetta7711 I mean I did mention it was useful mainly for "getting someone to back off" which usually assumes you're making an escape of sort, not running directly at someone like a moron.
Also, if the 2 braincells moron think its a good idea to try to chase and kill an spy with an ambassador while they are below 54hp you get a free kill.
@@inkmime You act like they'll back off. They usually just outright blitz the spy the second they see them lol.
The ambassador is still my go to spy revolver. Mainly because when I played it was un-nerfed. It was a bit of a culture shock playing TF2 again and having my Baby Faces Blaster be garbage
"In the end though, if people are gonna keep treating it like it's some garbage weapon, then... I don't mind being the one laughing in the end."
That line had no reason to go so hard
17:35
I keep rewatching this for many reasons, but the best part is how flawlessly you incorporated the Joker clip. I always think of the line when using my Amby now!
As a stock purist with 3500 hours, the Amby might actually be my favorite unlock simply because it always feels rewarding to do well with.
do you use stock grenade launcher
@@pogobod2128 yes I do, I have 3k kills on it.
Do you use the Syringe Gun and the stock melees?
@@joanaguayoplanell4912 No, but Crossbow might as well be stock
Same for Sandvich/Ubersaw
As for melee, I use Gru on Heavy and whatever I need for Engineer because I have a ton of objectors
I have started to experiment with unlocks more, I really like the Machina and the Whip
"The amby is good"
My brother in chirst i did 65 dmg and the guy was standing right next to me
Skill issue
And the reason Woolen cares for DPS is because in high level comp, gun Spy is by far the most reliable role.
My biggest complaint is that 1200 HU is too little. I am willing to concede that spy shouldn't be a sniper class, but IMO, the distance should be increased or the headshot limit should be removed, so after 1200 HU, headshots still do 54 damage. OR, make it do 102 until the 1200 HU drop-off, that would be even better maybe.
Also, the Amby getting nerfed while the Diamondback remained the same will be the biggest injustice to ever occur.
Overall, I still do like the Ambassador, as it is by far the most satisfying and fun to play with.
Ah yes, the main factor of Spy that people forget about fairly often....
SPY HAS A GUN!
gunspy mains are forever forgotten
My issue with the ambassador nerf is that the Jarate bushwacka combo exists, why make the close range class bad at long range but keep the long range class good at close range?
The jarate bushwacka combo is also my issue with the reserve shooter + airblast nerf, as well as the sandman + cleaver nerf.
Valve removes/nerfs these combos/weapons that made the class the combos were attached to really good in a scenario where they shouldn't be. However they then keep the sniper combo because Gaben forbid they nerf sniper, I guess.
I think they didn't nerf the bush and jarate because they are good separately (especially the bushwaka) but broken together
Additionally they kept the huntsman completely unchanged which also makes the sniper an incredibly powerful close range class, not to mention other classes have options to help them in fields they won't do well in otherwise such as the sandvich, and the gunslinger, and demos plethora of powerful melee options.
@@yew8707 I don't think its that powerful given sniper is still a light class, but the headshot hitbox is way too massive.
@@Absol7701jarate is completely broken by itself. Even if it had the Gas Passer limitations, with the added downsides of not gaining charge on damage and loosing the bar on death, it would STILL be broken.
I just find it funny that any weapon that requires actual skill and proper aiming to use gets nerfed but weapons that are super cheap and easy to spam are completely untouched. Now that isn't just for TF2 that's for dozens and dozens of other games.
the problem is that if you want to say that the prior amby doesn't fit the role of "spy being a backline assassin". and how skill shouldn't be the determining factor for a weapons' strength, then the sniper shouldn't be allowed to deal 125 headshots (instakilling a majority of the classes) from a mid-close range as he is a long range pick off class. the point of the amby was to counter act spy's biggest weakness of long-mid range for a trade off of hard to hit shots and less dps. as well it wasn't like the amby came close to 1 shotting enemies even at ranges of a sniper or even mid range in all honesty it did 102 so that if you hit back to back headshots or back to back shots on some classes then maybe you would kill them. With the current amby the only fix would be to either increase its range to do 102 from more of a mid range or maybe take off the cooldown on headshots. it just gets outclassed heavily by the diamondback and stock revolver now.
Another argument you could make is that spy is the worst class in the game (while also debatably being one of the hardest) and the amby nerf mixed with the Deadringer nerf did way to much to make this class close to unusable or at the least insanely unviable and unfun to play at times. He just doesn't have a lot going for him.
My opinion on the amby nerf is that the 102 damage range should be increased a bit, but the minimum crit damage of 54 should always apply at all ranges.
Yeah that sounds overpowered at first, but then you'd need to shoot a medic 4 times in the head to kill them, takes at least 4 seconds and obviously you'd need to be very accurate. Then probably get found out immediately and corn holed by a pyro.
@Pijazo Galáctico nah, he was saying 102 is still the max but a slightly longer range, although the current range is still very good
@Pijazo Galáctico I just think the inconsistent damage at close to mid-range is infuriating, hence why I said a higher max damage range would make it less frustrating.
A more gradual damage curve would also be less annoying.
13:21
"When you can just, fuckin'-"
*Death to the utmost degree*
11:20 people want to play that way cause thats the subclass of spy that they liked.
A subclass only exist if there's something that support it like demo knight having shield or battle engi with the gun slinger
I think the main problem with the Ambassador is the existence of the Diamondback. Why take one crit every second for something that requires a lot of skill when you have crits on no cooldown for just playing the game?
The DB forces you to do you’re job well enough to last with those crits
Embi has Infinite critz, while if you whiff your 3 crit shots and hit a Teleporter on the 4th, with the diamondback your kinda are just in the open with a direct downgrade to stock.
(But NGL, no falloff is pretty strong)
@@red-black8138 Yeah no falloff is strong but honestly if you would ever reach the point where long range fights are needed, you’re dead anyways
@@thebushbros6626 trolling the local gatherings of sniper crowds is fun. Especially if you know decent spots.
I play spy just to start caos and paranoia, not actually do something productive.
@@red-black8138 Yep, the glory of the ambi.
The Ambi went from a revolver that rewarded good players and punished bad players, to a downgrade to the Diamondback.
🗿🗿🗿 how tf is getting headshots at any range punishing bad players
Bad players can't get headshots so it's just a straight downgrade for them.
Being a downgrade to the diamondback means nothing when the diamondback might as well be a direct upgrade to stock, and the entire point of the video is that it still rewards good aim and still punishes bad aim, it just stopped being effectively a direct upgrade itself
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video
@@theodoresmith3829 Except the DB is a downgrade to stock in every way UNTIL you fulfill the condition, which is incredibly hard to do since spy is such a dogshit class.
Good video. Spy is supposed to be a high risk/high reward class, so a revolver being the same idea SHOULDNT be blasted and trash talked for the same principle. I still use the Stock revolver or the L'EHODODO because my aim is shit on a GOOD day, but I still have a good amount of respect for the Ambassador.
The problem is, the Ambassador as it is right now is very high risk very low reward. Your max reward is ... a slightly worse Revolver.
@@DarkKnight179 it's only a worse revolver in a vacuum or DPS discussion, neither of which are accurate to an actual match at all. stock is consistent amby is skill based burst, the difference is clear and both are great
@@ralphthejedimaster Its a worse revolver in a vacuum, in a DPS discussion AND in an actual match. There is no scenario in which it isnt a worse revolver. Stock is consistent burst, amby is unreliable worse burst. In a world where you can 3-shot all but 2 classes reliably in the same time Amby can 2-shot the light classes exactly, its just no comparison.
Hell to give you an idea of how bad the amby is, its closer to the enforcer in power level than the stock revolver. Except the enforcer is also more reliable.
@@DarkKnight179 I'd argue that the ambassador is actually better in a vaccum, because if we were to take it with perfect aim, then you should look at ttk using the best options, not with only headshots
all data is taken from the tf2 wiki, which means they are approximate and determined by community testing
if we look at the health of classes, we get thresholds of:
125 ; 150 ; 175 ; 200 ; 300
at max ramp-up damage:
the revolver deals 60 damage and fires every 0.5s
the ambassador deals 102 damage on a heashot and 51 on a body shot, fires every 0.6s and takes 1s to recover from the spread
stock ttk: ambassador ttk:
125: 1s 125: 0.6s (1 headshot 1 bodyshot)
150: 1s 150: 0.6s (1 headshot 1 bodyshot)
175: 1s 175: 1s (2 headshots)
200: 1.5s 200: 1s (2 headshots)
300: 2s 300: 2s (3 headshots)
As you can see, at close range, the ambassador is objectively better at close range in a vaccum
medium range (base damage):
supposing perfect accuracy, which means no misses despite random spread, because we're in a vaccum
reload time excluded
revolver deals 40
ambassador still deals 102 on a headshot, 34 base damage
stock ttk: ambassador ttk:
125: 1.5s 125: 0.6s (1 headshot 1 bodyshot)
150: 1.5s 150: 1s (2 headshots)
175: 2s 175: 1s (2 headshots)
200: 2s 200: 1s (2 headshots)
300: 3.5s (+1.13s reload) 300: 2s (3 headshots)
the ambassador is by far objectively better at close to mid range, which is where it's supposed to excel at
long range (max fall-off with crits):
suppose perfect accuracy (no misses) and no reload
revolver deals 21 damage
ambassador headshots deals 54 on headshot and 18 on bodyshot
stock ttk: ambassador ttk:
125: 2.5s 125: 1.6s (2 headshots 1 bodyshot)
150: 3.5s (+1.13s reload) 150: 2s (3 headshots)
175: 4s (+1.13s reload) 175: 3s (4 headshots)
200: 4.5s (+1.13s reload) 200: 3s (4 headshots)
300: 7s (+2.26s reload) 300: 5s (6 headshots)
As you can see, the ambassador is, again, objectively superior in a vaccum at max fall-off (max crit distance)
at this point, you're not even supposed to get kills, but if you want to play "l'espion au revolver" the amby would theoretically let you net a kill on a light class in 1.6 seconds, as opposed to 2.5 seconds from stock
now, in a vaccum over the max range for crits, if we assume perfect accuracy, stock actually wins for once
but, if we assume every shot needs to be accurate past that range, the ambassador wins because of it's spread recovery time
the ambassador has a 1s recovery time, and stock has a 1.25s recovery time
ambassador has 18 dps at sniper range if we assume the need for the recovery
stock has 16.8 dps at sniper range if we assume the need for the recovery
In a vaccum, the ambassador is better in almost every situation, and I currently don't have the time nor the knowledge to do the calculations about random bullet spread for mid/long range, but I would assume the ambassador gets an advantage because of the shorter recovery time and the fact it already waits for it between each headshot
@@cyre77 The big problem is that "assuming perfect aim" is already an assumption you cant make. No one has perfect aim. And thats where much of the comparison falls apart.
That, and the fact that you cant quite use the numbers as written. Youre not gonna press after 1 second exactly on the amby for a second headshot, because thats frame-perfect. Press too early, and youll miss quite often. Whereas on the revolver, you can just spam click to fire it as soon as possible.
Also Ambassador doesnt deal 102 on a headshot at medium ramge. Damage falloff is gradual, its doing like 70 at that range.
But yeah, what youre showing is basically not "the ambassador is better at all ranges if youre a player", youre showing "the ambassador is better at all ranges if youre hacking or a bot, and worse in every situation otherwise". Which ok, sure, but were not balancing around bots, are we?
I think the ambassador is probably the only balanced revolver (other than stock, obviously)
Enforcer: worse than stock 80% of the time, the firing speed penalty makes the upside kind of pointless if you’re firing more than one shot
L’étranger: two big upsides for a relatively minor downside that actually kind of helps you since you can get more shots in before killing your enemy, therefore getting more of your cloak back. I don’t think anyone would want it to be nerfed though because it makes spy much easier to play since you’re not constantly trying to find ammo for cloak, and it doesn’t feel particularly unfair to fight against.
Diamondback: horrendously overpowered, has one negligible downside that doesn’t even matter since you’ll always be dealing critical damage if you’re doing the bare minimum that’s expected of you. Doesn’t require precise aim or skill to use, has no damage falloff on its crits, and has no cool-down like the ambassador. I don’t understand why people claim this is balanced.
The Enforcer's firing speed penalty doesn't mean very much, amigo. Its an extra 0.1 second between shots. If random crits are ignored, its arguably better than stock, since the dps is mostly the same, but it also pierces resistances. You can destroy a wrangled level 3 from a safe distance with 6 enforcer shots.
@@mouthwide0pen I guess so, still a pretty niche and underwhelming weapon though, especially given that spy has an item designed specifically to destroy sentries.
@@mouthwide0pen ngl I always thought the Enforcer’s slower firing speed wasn’t that impactful either
0:29 “lets back up a bit”
Definitely a zefrank1 reference
13:48 Moments like this are why I still think the Amby isn't good even after watching the video. Yes, in a vacuum, the potential to deal up to 102 damage in a single shot is great. But in practice, the time it can take to properly line up a headshot (downtime that's also required if you're trying to land one headshot after another, or you just missed the first headshot attempt) would be better spent just landing a few bodyshots with the stock Revolver.
Even at 11:22, that brief moment you take to line up a headshot could've been spent holding down M1 with the Revolver, which is the most consistent at close range because the bullet spread is minimal... and that's also the only range that the Amby deals respectable damage anymore. That's kinda the point that Woolen was getting at. There's a reason why Highlander Spies dropped the Amby overnight after Jungle Inferno and have never picked it back up since.
tl;dr Stock is much more consistent while also requiring less precision
@@Soapromancer Yeah, that's basically the point I was getting at. Good as a standalone weapon, but given that it's an unlock for the Revolver, you're better off using the latter the vast majority of the time. That's what people mean when they talk about weapons being good or bad - whether they're better or worse than the other items competing for the same item slot.
@@nickh8711 I'd still rather go for the one-and-done headshot over fiddling around with stock's bullet spread.
@@VagueCastle649 enjoy dying 99 times outta 100 because that shit is so much less consistant which is exactly why the amby is a bad gun. Why put in so much more effort into a weapon that at best just barely gets the same job done as stock does in the same range. It's only good at a range where its already outperformed in most cases.
Ah finally, the amby video I've been waiting for.
One thing you forgot to mention (which is understandable because it's never listed) is that unlike all the single bullet hitscan secondaries (Pistols, Smgs, Revolvers, The Enforcer), the ambassador's spread recovery is .25 seconds faster, and it's a gradual spread recovery unlike the hard on-off nature of the others.
ruclips.net/video/Kk0WrrSQnvw/видео.html
Also the butterknife-to-headshot combo is a viable strat for razorbacks.
I have stopped doing butter knife into headshot or the other way around, I'm always using something like prinny Wich don't indicate backstabs and i always (literally always) end up having to bail or die bc the sniper somehow ran into a backstab. (I have +1k/h and not the achivement you get for killing a razorback sniper after backstabbing him)
7:41 It was like when you go to get your cat neutered but the vet gives them a lobotomy and takes out their appendix.
Spy mains are so defense about their nerfed weapons that I had someone tell me that the Ambassador is on par if not worse with the Enforcer because the Enforcer can killed Wrangled Sentries fasters.
I agree Spy shouldn't be able to snipe but a headshot from mid-range with the current ambassador hardly deals more damage than a stock revolver shot at the same range. I'd say; Remove the damage falloff but keep the max headshot distance and perhaps lower it.
Maybe instead of damage fall off after a certain distance make it minicrit still rewarding but doesn’t let you kill people too far away
The fall off should be less drastic in between close range and midrange, and then plummet at longer ranges the way it is now.
My thing with the old ambassador was that it was a different way to play spy. Almost like a subclass. With the modern ambassador it just feels like another revolver, and an outclassed one at that. If you want crits just use the diamondback, it was more OP to begin with anyway, the ambassador nerf just gave it less competition
You forgot to mention it took thousands of hours of practice to become an Amby god and the nerf should have been way less than it is. For example, everything stays the same, just there is still an at least 50 damage long distance headshot. Makes the gun fun. This way its just sickening.
The nerf shouldn't have happened at all.
"Sniper is weak at close range" jarate/bushwhacka says hi 🤣
14:52 good to know i’m not the only one who dislikes the opaque flames (although it is nice as a pyro against snipers looking at a choke point)
Yeah I’m a Pyro main but it’s absolute bullshit. Pyro shouldn’t have a freaking flashbang,
11:20 Because it's fun,that's it
I guess he thinks Gun Spy are sucks
@@FrostLinKuei1235 Maybe yes maybe not
Personally i think it's just overshadowed by the Diamondback.
I mean, aside from Le'tranger, there is very little reason to not use the Diamonback.
I mean it depends,
DB if you're good at spy or the ENTIRE enemy team has no spy experience (not that likely)
Amby if you suck at Spy (lol), enemy team has spy experience, love hitting headshots, and no engis.
I'm going to disagree with the comments. Spy is so weak, his strong guns gave him something outside of stabbing to do. I think having the headshot have the range it has now is fine, without the falloff, but it's never getting changed again so kind of a moot point.
Making the baseline of the spy equal across the board makes the class less muddy when it comes to class balancing. Yeah, i know Valve doesn't balance entire classes beyond giving more weapons, but if it did, it would make the nerf more relevant.
can we get a bad wapon acadamy for the sharpend volcano fragment?
I bet that this wouldn't have happened if Valve stole my idea for it instead: minicrit headshots past a certain range instead of weird falloff headshots that feel random because crits don't have falloff with literally any other weapon. It'd be objectively worse than what we have, but it would feel more consistent.
there is also loose cannon fall off crit oddly enough
I think the thing that gets me is the fall off damage within the crit range. I agree that there should be only a certain range it can crit, but it shouldn't have fall off within it. It always feels bad when I die after hitting a headshot, and knowing they would have died pre-nerf. Seeing how hitting headshots from further away is harder, it just doesn't feel good to get punished for a more skillful shot. That said, god is this weapon fun.
I absolutely love 9:31, so poignant
My only problem with the changes is that the falloff is too harsh and unpredictable.
Everything about tf2 is around set numbers (a direct pipe will do 100 damage, a melee will do 65 etc.) but when I whip out the amby at what I'd consider fair range, I end up doing less damage than I expected that I couldn't predict.
I don't think it's fair to say everything about tf2 is around set numbers.
I mean, what about heavy? Are you going to try to count the number of bullets?
Soldier with his falloff? Common optimal-ish ranges is 80-90 damage. Rockets can reach up to around 100 damage, at longer ranges 50-70 also happens.
Demoman sticky burst damage is similar.
Shotgun/Scattergun spread and multiple pellets is also a thing.
Some parts of the game work with static numbers and that can impact your play but at the end of the day, I think most people play with shoot until they die for the most part.
14:45 What in the fuck is that ragdoll? Absolutely majestic.
NGL fuck the “why do you care about DPS” argument because that’s the main reason why spies sleep on their revolvers in the first place. Do you need that more consistent burst from the Ambassador if you can trickstab everything sans Snipers with the Kunai?
My main problem with the current ambassador is that the range limit is extremely short. If it was 1.5-2x more and the shots never fell past mini-crits, I think that’s where the ambassador would be actually worthwhile for the skill investment
I am personally for the Ambassador getting a *small* buff, though I'm open to keeping it as is. A spy with consistently good aim will still poop on Razorback scrubs(unless they're close to their team). Like buffing the base damage to 10% less than stock rather than 15 and/or allowing it to do critical headshots with falloff from any range. I think it's already close to balanced, but I think it should be slightly more rewarding for how hard it is to use. It's not a terrible weapon, but still much harder to use and notably less consistent than stock.
Yeah. I think it's just slightly worse than stock in the same way that the enforcer is. I think the other issue lies in how people just don't tend to understand how good stock is to begin with, against good players the only classes I struggle to DM are Soldiers and Heavies, meaning that as long as it's 175 health and under I am confident that I can secure a kill on most classes simply by outranging them and hitting my shots. The amby being effective in the same range that stock is most effective in just adds to that issue. I've gotten a lot of maximum falloff kills with the revolver so that just leaves the amby underwhelming to me because that 18 at long range really can make it harder to get maximum falloff kills
That and the Revolver's really consistent chip damage usually makes you a great pair with power classes, one midrange 40 damage revolver hit and a 100 damage-ish power class hit go great together, and hitting those shots for the spy is not at all very risky unless it's a sniper
My issue is that Spy is literally not allowed to have subclasses like the other ones lol. The other classes are not more important than Spy. Treat him like everyone else, Valve or stop making TF2 entirely. -_-
@@ebookie_meowda That's because Engineer, Medic and Spy have always been the most difficult to update without somehow breaking the metagame.
@@ebookie_meowda I don't even think it would be too hard to give Spy some decent stuff to play with if they gave some weapons specific downsides. Like, if the Ambassador neutered your cloaking abilities and for example, removed the cloaking damage resistance he'd probably have enough downsides to justify keeping the weapon. Start applying these harsh downsides to great upsides to other weapon ideas and it wouldn't be too hard to make something interesting. Spy already has some ability to be a midranged finisher class, why not lean into it more as a subclass and become less able to be specifically a pick class?
@@ebookie_meowda Spy doesn't warrant subclasses
no one realizes the nerf made the skill ceiling lower
It is still pretty God damn high
@@TF-Boom look,the thing that made the amby great was the skill ceiling. you aim was good boom 102 damage. now you go over to the enemy and just deal the damage
@@TF-Boom No it's not. The skill floor is high, but Spy's got the lowest skill ceiling in the game. It's why he can be hard countered by every single class in the game.
@@ebookie_meowda what? Spy has an average skill ceiling. Not the highest (like soldier and demo with all those airshots and blast jumping) and not the lowest (like heavy). Spy is just balanced in a way of being "strong" as a pick class in a cost of being weak in direct combat. Just look and revolver, it is literally a mid-range sidegrade (more effective at mid-range, less effective at close range) to the shotgun that you are most of the time forced to use at close range. Or knife that as a basic melee outside of backstabbing just have about 33% damage penalty.
@@kalin4452 I don't understand your comment. Your skill with amby rewarded with high burst damage at any range (outside of long range). And isn't it a point of a gun to go over to your enemies and *shut gud* and do damage? Nerf just limited the range. And yea, I know, longer range = harder to aim cuz no scope, but if you aren't staying a few kilometers away, then longer range = harder to aim, but also longer range = lower chance of enemies knowing about you = enemies with predictable movement = easier to aim.
Meanwhile the diamondback continues to exists as the closest thing to a pre nerf ambi, as well as a no fire rate penalty.
I vouch for Soundsmiths quote in his spy weapon stereotype where most mains go for the stock since in my case (even tho im not saying im a spy main) i have problems hitting headshots everytime. Yet for sniper im more prone to hit them.
I’ve honestly hated the argument “spy isn’t meant to be a pocket sniper” when people try to defend the nerfs. Like, what exactly is the issue with spy having a pocket sniping ability when he’s easily the worst class in the game regardless? Who’s the guy you’re complaining about who always hits his ambassador headshots and everyone is helpless to stop him? The argument always seemed to be like a very theoretical example that didn’t ever actually happen. Even with that in mind, who are you to decide what the design philosophy is anyway? I could argue that spy players just underutilize the revolvers in the first place, and focus too hard on getting backstabs. If the revolver isn’t supposed to be powerful, then why do we have revolvers like the diamondback that heavily reward you for backstabs and sapping buildings? Why do we have revolvers like the l’etranger that give great general utility at the expense of revolver dps? Spy has always had a large emphasis on strong options through his revolvers, and that made the pre-nerf ambassador a fine revolver. Compare the ambassador to other revolvers, not just through the lens of “I don’t like sniper, so this weapon was bad for the game.”
Do wish the Enforcer was better, at least make it so it has a 20% damage bonus at all times instead of while disguised.
@@tangerinepaint3643 It used to have exactly that on release until it was changed to only while disguised during the Gun Mettle update
@@breadbug6101 Oh I am well aware of that.
I love videos like this. It's amazing that a game with 5 years of no balance changes, essentially neglect can still fuel discussion, opening up new playstyles. Great stuff!
I love the soundtrack from Sly cooper games, it really fits spy and their both my favourite characters in video games.
Honestly this video made me realize I should just use the diamondback. 10/10
I've always thought that something similar to the ambi nerf would work for sniper (if he was to be nerfed) with an inverse damage falloff, so for example at point blank a quick scope headshot would deal around 125 damage keeping snipers current relationship with spy and scout intact, while punishing him for allowing medium classes with movement options like solider or jetpack pyro to get close(unless he's using the shield of poorly designed)
Another random balance idea is for the jarati to self coat the sniper unless he's using it to put himself out, this would nerf the whole "throw it at your feet and one shot the spy/scout for free"
how to balance tf2: the sniper should wet himself
@@zappodude7591 yes
@@nick4754 yes
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
I've had so many arguments about the ambassador over the years, even with my teammates. The ambassador is still used in pubs and competitive for a reason, it's good. Not only is it great as a retreating tool and surprise tool as you mention, but it has 1 secret upside. It can still do over 100 damage. Players being under 100 HP is extremely common and chip damage on light classes can put them under that threshold. The amount of times I've been 1-tapped by a spy with the ambassador standing on the battlements on Product (China) in Highlander is too much lol.
Also as a sidenote, every time I see the "damage comparisons" it's like they're trying to shoot out a whole clip as spy or more for the comparison. And to that I say.... who the hell is using the entire clip in their revolver to kill someone? You should either die within 2-3 shots or kill the other person in that time.
I mean..spy was already considered the weakest class in the game I don't think a Nerf this bad was needed-
Amby just should have slightly more mid-range damage + slightly bigger distance with max headshot damage.
I think the ambassador is too inconsistent to be good in most situations
That’s a lack of your own skill more than it is a flaw of the Amby
skill issue
@@_ZXCV_ it is too inconsistent, the whole point of the woolen sleevelet video is that it only does good damage where stock is more consistent to begin with. It's only good at dealing with razorback snipers now, which the enforcer can do the same thing in the same amount of shots, without needing to line up a headshot, and also can ignore vaccinator bubbles. There's a reason the amby was dropped by basically every highlander spy post jungle inferno.
@@_ZXCV_ ?? I have a good aim, the bullet spread is what bugs me
@@therat5687 The Ambassador has perfect accuracy on it's first shot. If the bullet spread bugs you, then use the gun as intended, and wait for the spread to recover.
10:40 hey thats me!
The one who underestimates the ambassador is the first to die. Although the stock revolver is consistent, it won’t save you if the enemy turns around before seeing you. Whenever that happens, every second counts, and a headshot from the ambassador can and will save your life whenever this happens.
Besides, you can’t rely on getting a facestab to save you there.
The stock revolver is not just consistent, but actually straight up better at almost every range.
Old Ambassador:Sorta broken but still fun
New Ambassador:Balanced still good,but not fun like it used to be
I highly agree
@@MuichirouTokito416 strongest Amby user vs weakest Stock Revolver user
@@FrostLinKuei1235 I don't think the Amby is bad by any mean,but still it's not fun like it used to be (even though Idk anything about pre-nerf Amby)
I mean, of course I prefer old amby but I would like more consistent damage like 100 max crit and min crit 50~45 no range limit and make it shoot a little slower. What do I know, right.
This fucking video just said everything I've been trying to tell people for years, THANK YOU FISH.
Long story tiem, I remember the "good 'ol" times of the Ambassador, and it was fucking bullshit, and I felt it so much since I am a Medic/Engineer main, which are Spy's main targets. Getting backstabbed by a Spy, as irratating as it is, it's understandable because that Spy fooled you and your team with the Disguise, it was very risky getting to you, and that you are an important of a target. But with the old Ambassador, I remember clearly the bullshit Spy 'mains' just camping for you in parts of the map where you least expect it and then escaped free to reposition with the Dead Ringer or if they were far away enough, just cloak and move out undetected. It was soooo bullshit that your health suddenly dropped from 150 to 48 in a span of a microsecond, as you were about to reach the fight, but because a random Spy hid in the opposite corner where your team was, now you had to play five fucking different games as Medic: No poking at sightlines for the objective to not get picked by enemy Sniper, Positioning so a Scout, Demo or Soldier can't get the jump on you so easily, being mindful of the enemy Medic Uber rate, being aware of Spy trying to backstab you and not leaving huge sightlines on your own side for enemy Ambassador to chunk or kill you from BS places. We lost a minor local tournament of TF2 because of how godly the enemy's Spy Ambassador was, at round start they let our team cap so they could let their Spy position behind us, and instead of backstabbing us, he would headshot the Medic, calling the Scout to get the jump on him do little damage to finish him off and just surround and pick one by one the team after killing the Medic, he never seemed to miss a headshto and while he was at position where if you tried to look for him, his team would eat you up, while he continued peppering 102 damage from his comfy spot, it was sooooo bs trying to pinpoint a secondary Sniper that had an entire map to hide and choose where to position while cloaked.
And don't get me started with hackers, it was their primary class and it was just as bullshit getting Ambie'd from Badwater's ramp to your spawn and people going 'good shot' in chat.
But every time I mentioned that the nerf was warranted Spy mains went ballistic and that 'Sniping' for 102 damage from a unknown source that went invicible afterwards was fair and took skill. Hate to break it to everyone, but needing skill is not a good reason for balancing something, Airshots, Sniper Headshot, Flare Shots, and Crossbow shots, take skill and are balanced because 'Taking Skill' isn't all there is to it.
"I am a Medic/Engineer main" we can stop here
@@kubsons0732 "yeah, let's ignore this guy's opinion because he plays the classes that are most commonly on the receiving end of a poorly balanced weapon's bullshit"
@@evan9730 exactly finally someone understands
@@kubsons0732 sarcasm
@@evan9730 what
"It would be like if Sniper had some kind of close-range insta-kill option- Oh, wait."
YEAH GEE THAT WOULD REALLY BE STUPID AND AGAINST THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE CLASS WOULDN'T IT
I hear alot of people saying that the Ambassador is weak because Diamondback exist. I believe that is not why Ambassador itself is weak.
While yes it is weaker in comparison, it does not justify Ambassador needing a buff.