My Take on HEAVY Arrows
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Might ruffle some feathers with this video, but I always try to shoot you guys straight with the information and experiences I've had over the years. This is just my opinion, I'm sure you have your own. Let the games begin
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@Inside_Out_Precision
I'm not sold on the super heavy weight thing but definitely sold on a high quality, razor sharp, fixed blade broadhead.
I feel like part of it, at least for the Ranch Fairy, is what and how they're hunting. Hunting pigs out of a blind at distances of less than 40 yards makes heavier arrows more attractive in my opinion. Hunting elk or any other large game at distances possibly greater than 40 yards, the tradeoffs make less sense.
i don't listen to any guy who calls himself a fairy....
I drank the Kool aid for like a month. I bought some heavy arrows, 660 gr. and tested them out. If I misjudged by 3 yards I would be either missing or wounding an animal. That was enough for me to realize the heavy arrow crazy is ridiculous.
@@rattlingjunkie what distance? I shot 4 arrows, 525, 550,600,625 at 15,25,35yrds out to 25yrds they all hit at exactly the same height. At 35 there was about 3 inch difference between lightest and heaviest. Shooting at deer beyond 35yrds is a different can of worms lol
@@joshbriele325 well from 20 to 23 yards I saw a difference. I hunt with a 425 gr. arrow. I've got pass throughs on elk and moose here in Manitoba.
Ranch Fairy uses heavy arrows as a substitute for tuning and practicing. That’s why he is so disparaging toward the John Dudleys and Levi Morgan’s of the world, despite their recorded success and RFs opinion based claims.
Young guys shoot 70, why don’t we here tips for the guys shooting 60
Ranch fairy is shooting pigs at 20 yards. He can shoot a 2000 grain arrow. I’d like to see him come out west with his setup. I’m sure he wouldn’t be near as heavy.
As Ashby says: use the heaviest arrow that you can with a trajectory that is acceptable to you.
That's all that needs to be said.
And yes, forgiveness is the right word, not accuracy.
Accuracy comes from the archer; forgiveness comes from the equipment including arrows. 👍👍👍
Never been a fan of heavy arrows, 420-450 is my sweet spot. Went threw oryx at 63 yards with 448 gr arrow 28” draw
I definitely agree with this man! I'm running 425 had pass throughs last year on a moose at 63 yards and a elk at 32 yards, no issues at all, I think u hit the nail on the head a accurate,good tune and a great broadhead is what's going to kill animals!
I follow you from Chile. I think like you about this guys that shoot a really heavy arrow. For example The hunting public guys, they shoot like a 700 grains arros. When you see the video in slow, there you can see what bad fly this arrow, moving back a lot. Hasent enough punch the bow to move this weight. I shoot M;athews VXR31,5, 67# @28,5 with 460 grains and fix two blades broadheads. Enough for all animals.
I’m pulling 65# and 28 inch draw and my arrows are 460 Easton Carbon Injexions and use mechanicals and shot through Hogs.. Deer.. and my Elk and Bear. I’m on year 45 as a bow hunter.
oooooo dont tell ranch fairy about this!!!! hahahahahah im 1000000% for finding the perfect setup for what youre hunting for. sharp broadheads do the work. im 28 inch draw, 70lbs, arrows are 485gr. taw. and that is my absolute sweeeeet spot.
It's all about flight, heavy arrow is no good if it's flying wonky,spot and stalk I use 420-450, tree stand 5-570 w/fixed blade broadhead, 29.5 draw 70lbs Mathews v3x, remember there's more to Ashby report than heavy arrows
Thank you for having the balls to say what you said , people come up with all things to hide bad shooting form and a bow not tuned !!!!!!!
I’ve been shooting light arrows for 20+ years I moved up from low 400 grain to 520 grain this year, and I’m really happy with my new arrows. 75# bow @ 29” draw going 280fps. Not super heavy, they buck the wind well and I can still get 100 yards out of my sight tape.
You're in the sweet spot
If you watch these heavy arrow “influencers” aka ranch fairy/ THP the most important factor is perfect arrow flight. Full stop you have to have perfect arrow flight, whether you’re shooting 400 or 800 grains. I think a lot of people if they actually sat down and had a conversation with him and or watched all of his stuff could see that. At the end of the day you want perfect arrow flight and a trajectory that is acceptable to you. Now if you like to shoot mechanicals I’m sure he ruffles your feathers but that’s another discussion.
The “influencers” that are promoting shooting “as heavy as acceptable” also spend 90% talking about making your arrows fly straight. They spend more time promoting tuning than anything else. The scientific fact is that an arrow that is heavy and gets that weight from the front of the arrow has more speed at the target (relative to its start speed) than a flat arrow does. That’s more energy delivered to the target.
Yeah but energy doesn't kill animals, period. All you have with a 600gr arrow over a 440-500gr arrow is a worse trajectory. You're still not getting through a shoulder, and 440gr will still blow through an elk with good shot placement. Shoot 650gr if it makes you feel good, but you're not killing anything better than my 470gr setup
@@papajohnsy6659 haha. Ok bud. Energy doesn’t kill animals…..ffs. Try again. I mean, if you shoot a ping pong ball at an animal with the same energy as you do a bowling ball…only one is getting through, even if the ping pong ball gets there moderately faster.
Everyone that is so worried about trajectory can’t possibly have actually tried developing a scenario like they think will happen.
Your trajectory between 30 and 40 yards with a 480gr vs 580gr arrow is nearly negligible. If you are shooting at an animal 50 yards out, I hope to heaven you actually ranged that animal before you dared pull back. And let down when he moved so you could range again. Like a responsible adult that knows he’s so far out that animal won’t see him doing so. And there best be no trying to thread an arrow through brush like it’s TAC or something.
Energy isn’t everything either. If you throw a knife and a brick of the same weight at a target at the same speed, the knife is getting through way easier. Same is true when considering different types of knifes. If you use inefficient and weak broadheads (read: most of them), yeah putting it on a heavy arrow isn’t going to accomplish much. Use an efficient, strong and sharp one though, it’ll blow holes through anything you point it at.
Then comes the tuning of the arrow. Is it flying out of the bow straight? Are you shedding energy trying to correct its flight the whole way to the target? Is it precessing like a top because you can’t be bothered to nock-tune and just slapped some fletchings on the factory spine “alignment” sticker?
All of these factors affect how much energy your arrow has and what it does with that energy at the target. A heavy arrow fixes none of these issues, but if you address them all with a heavy arrow, it’ll blow holes through material a light arrow, similarly tuned, could barely get stuck in.
The ranch Mary groupies aren’t going to like this
Thank you for your opinion. I appreciate all of the different views on this subject. I’m experimenting now with a “heavy” arrow for me (540 gr. DL - 27.5”, DE - 60 lb.) so I’m interested in what penetration I get this year. You’re absolutely right tho, a correctly tuned bow is paramount.
I shot a moose at 63 yards with a 26.5" draw at 63 pounds, 425 gr. arrow for a complete pass through. Exodus Broadhead.
Seems awful heavy.
Ranch Fairy is exactly what he calls him self a "Fairy" ..experiment with in your budget and shoot what works best for you and your set up and what you can afford!
Most of all have fun! And enjoy what God gave us!
Happy hunting friends
437g total weight RIP TKOs. 150g up front. 14.8% FOC
Let’s see, I’ve shot 415gr for years and shot everything from Deer to Moose with pass throughs…I’m good with it! Fades come and go, just do you…🏹👊🏻🇺🇸
Cheers my fellow Western Oregonian!!! All good points and well reasoned. I personally draw 78# with a 29" draw and I run either a 450gr or 510gr with strictly fixed blade single bevel broadheads (in my experience out here, mechanicals are garbage and prone to failure). IMO FOC is important because of flight dynamics. Yes its become a very popular aspect of arrow building but it was ALWAYS important regardless of how long it took the masses to start fixating on it.
Great Video! I’m shooting a 65 LB. and 477 Gr arrow with 17% FOC @ 274 FPS and it works for me.
Balance is a good message to promote, and that balance will be different for everyone. However, I find your explanation of physics based phenomenon quite appalling. I think you would agree, because you stop quite quickly when you realize you are sounding like an idiot and revert back to "My lived experience validates my feeling." And, finally, you must not have read the Ashby reports very thoroughly. Arrow flight and integrity are the first two tenants because they are the most detrimental to lethality. Chasing anything else without addressing these two is futile. You should shoot the heaviest arrow that maintains proper arrow flight and still provides the trajectory you desire. I think if you actually understood the concepts behind Ashby's research you would find that you actually are in agreement with it. I think you simply are struggling with the fact that other people have differing design criteria to their arrow build to meet their own needs.
Thank you Jesus !👍
You’re incorrect about the momentum staying the same. You know the formula but you don’t understand the math. What you said about trajectory is correct though
Breath of fresh air. Like that this info is coming from some professional archers with a pool of hands on real life scenarios.
Heavy arrow nonsence is being pushed by people that are saying dont shoot past 30 yards with top of the line gear.
The reason the pros are not doing that is because the industry can't afford for people to understand how things actually work.
So is that why people like Aron Snyder and John Lusk who have no sponsors and test arrows/broadheads almost daily are shooting 460-500gr arrows for everything except cape buffalo?
@@papajohnsy6659 because of trajectory and time of flight forgiveness. They still want more velocity which is respectable for longer shots, so I guess that's fine for Elk and stuff, but for closer up: less than 40 yards, 600+ really shines on heavy bone impact, specifically shoulder and humurous.
Yes I think people get so raped up in pass through arrows they forget everything else.. I have shot a lot of deer that didn't pass through all the way but the deer still dead within 100 yards.
Love the thought provoking conversation over morning coffee. ❤️ All the pundits on this topic caveat their position on the same point: 'desired trajectory'. As the shooter, you have atleast 4 variables to define to establish the arrows flight you want. Your points about forgiveness are extremely important and I believe a well-informed shooter making a conscious decision about their setup and practicing with it will always have better results over the long run. Regardless of the arrow weight.
Thank you for saying it out loud shot placement is No.1
I agree heavily with this (pun kinda intended) I have killed now 12 bulls in 14 years and shot through them all out to 62 yards. So much comes into play with penetration.
1)momentum yes
2) tuned bow yes
3) broadhead (cut on contact, diameter ect.) Yes
4) arrow diameter yes
5) SHOT PLACEMENT. YES. MOST IMPORTANT
THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE VEDIO
What"s your draw #, total arrow weight & broadhead for your 12 Bulls?
A well tuned bow, shot placement, and a sharp Broadhead make the most difference. The Ashby reports were made to convince the “continent of Africa” to allow bow hunting. Todays archery equipment is totally different than before and much more advanced. If your shooting a slower bow and have a arrow that super heavy your basically lobbing a arrow and praying you know how much your animal is going to duck past 25 yards. There’s a fine line and balance you have to find within your own setup.
you hit the nail! ...your comment should be pinned!
The magnitude of the error margin due to a heaver and therefore slower arrow in combination with a ducking / moving game are somehow totally ignored by RF and his followers, despite the fact that the physics / math are straight forward here.
I got in a civil discussion with a guy at the range on this the other day. The wife has a 23.75 draw and pulls 52 pounds. She has a Nevada bull elk tag this year. I have her using a 408 grain arrows. The guy was telling me she needs to be using 500 grains plus. Her arrow as it is only going 218 FPS and 42 KE using a calculator a 500 grain arrow would be going with roughly 187 FPS and 39 KE.
I think the perfect arrow for whitetail sized game is 480-520. I’m at 27.5” and 70 pounds shooting 510 grains. Tuning and a good broadhead is key however.
I’ve been asking this exact question for a while now! I want to see a video with actual testing comparing forgiveness of arrow trajectories at different weights.
Oh my gosh, you can definitely get through an elk shoulder with a heavy arrow. You just need to study this more man. People are doing that with Cape Buffalo, so Elk... yeah.
375 h&h softs don't get through cape buffalo shoulders buddy. If a 300gr bullet at 2500fps isn't doing it a 650gr arrow at 220fps sure isn't either. Also, why are you shooting for the shoulder with archery equipment? Are you that bad of a shot or do you just like hindering the penetration that you love talking about so much?
@@papajohnsy6659 simple: quartering to shots. I'm not risking a shot too far back, so I will choose an arrow and broadhead system that will penetrate through the front shoulder and continue through.
It's a matter of increasing the shorter range shot opportunities.
I understand that it limits some longer range shots, but that is something the individual archer is going to have to decide for himself.
550 is probably about the most versatile, but if I know that there will be some shorter shots, I will be bringing some heavier arrows.
@@papajohnsy6659 Apple and oranges. A handgun like my 475 Linebaugh with the right bullet will out penetrate a 375 H&H all day long at less than half the speed. Again, apples and oranges.
Just came back from Maui and killed a buck with my 397 grain long range axis 400 spine with fixed grim reaper micro hades 3 blade. Shot it at 25 yards and 60 yards. Both arrows passed through. This was with my Mach 1 at 65 lbs at 26.5 inch draw length.
Rach fairy followers be like…but you need lethality! You need to set your arrow up like your hitting the shoulder 100% of the time! At 60 yard your lighter arrow is clocking 260fps and my heavy arrow at 60 yards is clocking 200fps but my heavy arrow still lost LESS fps then your lighter arrow at 60 LOL and you need 300gr tip weight cause the rocket man said it will fly best cause nasa’s top secret data base rocket science note book said so 😂
the lighter arrow will reach the target after 0.64 sec - the heavier arrow after 0.83 sec. The difference of approx. 0.2 sec doesn't sound like much, HOWEVER! ...considering a reasonable response time of 0.2 sec (could be as short as 0.02 sec) the deer may duck (basic physics!) for this 60 yard shot by 0.95 m for the lighter arrow, for the heavier arrow: 1.95 m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....shorten the response / reaction time of the animal and it gets even worse. If you want a clinical kill you can't neglect the arrow speed if you shoot game from 30 meters and more. Of course, RF with his 15 m pig shots doesn't need to worry about this 😎.
I doubt he said you need 300 gr tip weight
@@darrelbarnette3216 he, he.....at least it will benefit a medieval war arrow trajectory, or clout archery shooting ...that's what you get if you let teach a fairy science based on medieval materials and equipment 😁😂😁
I shoot 70lbs with a 570 grain arrow and still can range to 80 yards. But i do enjoy shooting my target arrows that are 368 grains and being able to range to 150 yards.
I agree with what you're saying; however, I feel like Dr. Ashby and RF are "misunderstood". The report is listed in the order of importance. They are preaching on:
1. Structural Integrity of the arrow (as a whole).
2. Perfect Arrow Flight.
3. ....and so on ......
RF often says structural integrity and perfect arrow flight is a must. He also talks a lot about shot placement in the vital V.
As for Dr. Ashby, he went full length on how to achieve perfect arrow flight. He tuned his arrows exactly the way you described it on one of your videos, Bare Shaft Tuning 2.0. The only difference is that Dr. Ashby was doing it for traditional bow. But his and your methods are exactly the same. He cut the shaft little by little to find the correct spine. And so on and so forth until the perfect arrow flight is achieved.
People on both camps (light and heavy) often only pick and choose what they "like" to hear without grasping the whole message they're (Dr. Ashby & RF) trying to convey; in this case, it's arrow weight.
As for me, I put emphasis on:
1. Structural Integrity of the arrow (as a whole)
2. Perfect Arrow Flight.
3. Practice practice practice (I am one of those who shoots between 500 and 1000 arrows a week).
4. My arrow setup will depend on what and where I'll be hunting.
5. Actually go OUT THERE and HUNT.
Happy hunting y'all!
All you gotta do I'm not voting for one or the other I shounder the other I shoot 550 grains and I've never had a hero bounce off you'll see a guy shoot a 400 grain arrow with a gosh Darn expandable broadhead and it will bounce off if he hits that shoulder whatsoever it will bounce off
I shoot a Centerpoint sniper 370 crossbow with PILEDRIVER BOLTS 442gr with 100gr broadhead & 467gr bolt with 125gr broadhead ... I shoot 125GR BROADHEADS so my arrow is 467+gr with deep power lightednock... DO U BELIEVE 470GR IS ENOUGH OUT OF A 370FPS CROSSBOW ???
I couldn’t agree more! I got caught in the heavy arrow fluff last season. 100% hurt my season and caused me to lose my biggest deer to date. Misjudged the yardage and wounded the deer. On top of that, my POS bow was losing poundage and I didn’t realize it because I was constantly playing with arrow weights.
Heavy arrows are okay if you’re a long DL, pulling heavy poundage, and shooting a 330+ IBO/ATA. Otherwise, keeping that speed up is very important. If you look at the math, most of your advantage is from the additional energy your bow can impart on the heavier arrow, which is not much.
You’re better off focusing on the most forgiving setup, which is a fast arrow with a good strong sharp broad head, be that of a fixed blade or the select few mechanicals, a well tuned bow, helical or offset fletchings, and honestly I think people overlook shooting feathers or FOBs. Drag on those tall stiff fletching passing through an animal can keep the arrow from coming out the other side.
For anyone curious what POS bow I had, it was a warrior river courage. I bought it from an online archery shop. Again, my dad tried to tell me it wouldn’t be a good bow for the price. He was right. I wish I would have listened. I was able to pick up a left over stock brand new PSE Drive LT for the same price from my local shop (sub $400)! Beyond happy with my new hunting bow. Very fast and smooth. Counting down the days to get a shot at a whitetail with it 😁
Elite Kure at 30.25 is inches at 90 let off. 550 grain arrow shot the same out to 25 yards then dropped off a bit. saddle hunter. BLEW through the shoulder of a deer i shot that was quartering to with Tooth of the arrow EX broadheads vented. Missed an 8 pointer that was probably about 30 yards as he was walking and finally stopped on a hard quartering away shot. smacked him in the rear thigh when if i was 6 inches higher woulda smoked him.. sure he lived as we tracked him for a day. next season i will have a new bow, slower than my kure with a 460 grain arrow. hoping to have a flatter trajectory with a slower drop off at range. Ranch fairy is right, but only at close range.
Love your vids bro.. I must say though.... Everyone hunting needs to know their equipment and weigh the trade-offs. Anyone shooting heavy fixed.. great, you can take almost any angle, blow through bone and hit vitals.. limitations - range maybe 30 yds. Anyone shooting lightweight.... great... you have greater range, but you are greatly limited by broadhead selection and the angles you should ethically take a shot. I think we can all agree though, there are too many people shooting expandables, with not nearly enough KE, through poorly tuned bows, leading to disaster. Must say though, if more people did follow the Ranch Fairy, shoot sharp fixed 500'ish grain arrows, through a well tuned bow.... there would be way more recoveries, and less un-recovered deer. Physics and Dr. Ashby's research with many thousands of data points isnt opinion, they are settled facts. At the same time, a hunter with enough KE and a reaper on the front is absolutely devastating as well. We dont need to be tribal, we need to know our gear, its limitations, and trade offs. We also need to know ourselves and our own limitations. We all dont shoot a sight with tape out to 140, and we all dont shoot 2 pin setup out to 30 either. Lets encourage each other to be as ethical, leathal, and responsible as possible. FWIW - Im shooting an old Switchback 70#, 300 spines, Magnus Black Hornets, around 530 grain.... and its devastating. Shoot strait yall.
I started off my archery career last year with heavier set up bc I was scared of not passing through. This year I started off at 460. And shoot clean through my deer. Now I’m testing out a 400 grainer for white tail. Being able to shoot to 120 is fun too. Haven’t tested it on a animal yet. Hitting 298 fps at 407 grain at 28 inches
What is super heavy arrows - 600 plus grains? Depends on what you are hunting and distance. If I want to shoot a 2000lb eland or giraffe or buff at 20m - I would want more weight. A small animal like impala can be lighter. Perfect arrow flight means accuracy.
Dude i was passing through whitetails with 390 grain arrows out of a 55# bow with a 28" draw. It can be done. I hate seeing clowns like Brandon Mcdonald and Troy Fowler telling people that their arrows suck and they wont kill anything. Such nonsense.
Arrows are bullets for bows. Pick the right arrow for the job. Simple. Over a feeder 20y shoot anything. Spot and stalk on a on a twitchy pronghorn different arrow, elk different arrow. There is ALWAYS going to be a give and take.
Shoulder blade you can break for sure, ball joint of the shoulder is a lottery ticket. John Dudley posted that one picture where he blew apart shoulder joint of an elk on the opposite side with a Rage. Also that one Mathews engineer who gave interview not sure where said bone breaking is mostly about broadhead design and kinetic energy available. Single bevel with tanto tip will do better job also with light arrow but maybe don't try it with 50# 25" draw. Anyways, often animals come towards you so that quartering to shot does happen and then you need to hug the bones pretty close. Now IF the tool to make those shots work is 600gr arrow then so be it, but I think 450gr and right broadhead is enough for a deer.. moose maybe not. Tree stand pretty much eliminates need to break bones ever
Great video! Bow tune, arrow flight and arrow tip design to maximize the use of the potential energy going through in my case an elk. I agree when well placed arrows hit their mark pass thru's are a given. I think there is adequate testing to back up that single bevel tonto tipped arrows with 50 lb-sec of momentum you will get penetration through an elk shoulder blade. I think planning/hunting for less than optimal hits is relevant. Once that arrow leaves the bow animals do things unexpected like a step putting that big blade in the way.
450 grains @ 70#, 29 inch draw. Never have lost an animal and have had blow throughs on every whitetail I have harvested. Only hunt whitetails and never shoot past 50 yards.
I'm sick of not getting passthroughs. I only shoot 60# @ 28" so I went from a sub 400 GR to a 488 gr. @14% foc. Now I can't wait
I think hunting conditions matter. I hunt whitetails at 30 and closer. I love my 550 grain arrow. This may not be a good choice for the dude that hunts antelope at 60 yards. I say do what you have confidence in. Who am i to push my agenda on others.
Ranch fairy has single handily caused more less lethal hits on Elk the past couple of years by promoting that heavy arrow. It’s been amazing how many people blindly followed someone that never even killed an elk. Just looking for that magic bullet I guess.
All I can add to this is data. I have a 26.5" draw shoot between 58 &60 lbs. With this and a 384 grain arrow I've been blessed to shoot over 200 whitetail. I'm off 9 weeks every fall and hunt 4 states. With the exception of shooting straight down into the spine I blow right through the deer. I can't speak of larger game like Elk dream hunt one day. However it doesn't take much to kill a deer. Also for those say prepare to hit the shoulder I say why in 38 years of bow hunting I've never hit the onside shoulder. Can't for the life of me understand why people aim so close to it. Plenty of vitals behind it.
Thank you for making sense!! This is exactly the solution to the arrow weight and lethality equation. 470 grains with a sharp fixed blade broadhead and perfectly tuned bow (77lbs and 28.5” draw). I have a 100% pass through rate on whitetail and most of the time my arrow is buried in the dirt almost to the fletchings on the other side of them. That’s the last 13 deer I’ve shot. Biggest reason is shot placement and arrow flight.
I can get 140 yards out of my sight tape and then more aiming off my bubble. Pin gaps are nice and tight.
What now do you shoot champ ? Is it 80 dropped a bit or a 70 twisted up right ?
@@GodsLandDownUnder 75 pound draw mods on a Mathews VXR. It just maxes out at 77lbs with the limb bolts fully tightened down
Pretty much the same conclusion I reached when switching my arrow setup from a Carbon Express Maxima Red SD 350 (spine of 330) to a Black Eagle Rampage 300 spine to pair with my new PSE Levitate. The Maxima Reds are a great arrow, but with my 31 inch draw/60 lb. draw weight and 175 grains up front, total arrow weight was 540 grains with a lighted nock; and I just wasn't comfortable with my pin gaps/ arrow drop beyond 40 yards. My new arrow setup should come in around 480 grains with a lighted nock. I got pass-throughs on the two deer I took with the Maxima Reds, I expect the same with the Rampage arrows if given the opportunity.
I agree with you 100 percent. About time someone said something about this
Each to their own I suppose, totally agree with your theory and as well the ashby theory has been proven, really come down to what works for the individual and the set-up used for the purpose also, spread da love mates, go hard and keep hammering from Australia 🇦🇺 down under under 😉.
I almost bought into the ranch fairy crap but came to a realization they are marketing and nothing more.
I've been saying that 450-550 is gonna be the best balance and right where it needs to be.
They put out the video trying to disprove Joel Maxfields results and they tried to say the target was the reason the arrows stopped at the same distance 🤣
They failed to acknowledge no matter what the media you shoot into , it has the same affect on the each of the arrows.
RF says to aim for 550 also
@@bigz5262 everything I've seen he is talking 650+
But if that's the case, I can say that I agree with him.
I've watched a bunch of his stuff and agree with his tuning and broadhead choices. I guess it depends on what he considers light/ heavy as to how much I agree with what he says!
Thanks for pointing that out!!
@@titansfan2104 the Ashby reports stated 650 and above gets into the more consistent bone splitting, regardless of velocity. But Troy knows the trajectory isn’t great. He’s helped the THP guys with all their arrows and I don’t think any of them are over 600. The guy gets a lot of hate for the heavy arrow thing but for some reason people like to look past all the stuff he says about making sure it flies straight
I appreciate including the DL/DW caveat. I'm a mid-west whitetail guy shooting 615gr arrows and pulling 70lbs over 31" (still going ~250fps). So I feel like my setup is a little on the heavy side, but not extreme given the circumstances.
Perfect Tune and 450 arrow with fixed bland will kill anything.
How many elk have you killed just curios
4 bulls 3 cows
Nice I bought my bow from the bow rack last year keep up the good work man
Well, I won't be getting away from my 550 grain arrows, with my Zwickey Eskimo's they are point on @ 20 yards, which is the furthest I'm going to shoot that bow, it's also why I went 550, because that's where point on was. I also shoot 550 with my compound, and I don't shoot further than 30 yards, if I have to pass a bull, then he gets a pass and I get a lesson, and hopefully learn something from the experience.
To each their own!
Additionally, John Dudley shoots a 540 grain arrow out of his bow. Is he shooting a HEAVY arrow when compared to the weight of the average person's arrow? At what weight does your argument begin? If its 700 grains, then you are talking about a small subset of archers.
All depends on your draw length and draw weight. Dudley has a 31” dl and shoots 70+lbs, so a 540 gr arrow isn’t really heavy for his set up. If he was shooting 27” then I would consider it pretty heavy for that particular set up. It’s all relative
Gotta disagree , moat guys that know to shoot heavy are more into archery than the average guy and likely knows his set up and has his "pins" set up right and is good at judging yardage . Heavy might not be "best" for average guy but just try it and you will see . 600 grain > 400 grain . Penetration does not have much to do with bow tune , if it's in tune enough to shoot good groups at 30 yards it's not gonna be a detriment to penetration .
Dude you won’t find a professional shooter on the planet to at shoots a 600gr arrow, so to say people who are more into archery is just not true. And perfect arrow flight has MUCH more to do with penetration than over all weight. If your arrows isn’t flying well then yes you will need a heavier arrow because it’s losing so much energy when it hits the animal. It’s literally physics. And what’s your definition of good groups at 30 yds? If the arrows aren’t touching I don’t personally consider it very group art that close of a distance
I think you are spot on with this information.
Is 253 fps a good enough speed or should I go lighter than 715 grains? I will say you are 100% right about tuning your bow (and your arrows). If it makes you feel better I shoot 450 grains out of my target set up. 👍
That's for you to decide. But you will suffer from all the negatives he Mentioned in the video. Get a 475-500 grain arrow and I bet you will be happier in the end.
Although if you are only taking 25 yard shots, that heavy arrow is probably great
Most people shoot for 270-290 FPS. The general rule of thumb is 280 FPS. The reasoning is it can be harder to broadhead tune above these speeds. Therefore, if you want the most forgiveness in the overall package you should drop weight and increase speed. If you’re an east coast whitetail hunter who never shoots past 20 yards it’s not a big deal. But who wants to be a white tail hunter 😂
Why's he got to bring the whisker biscuit into this?! Lol
Where's the research? You say you feel or you think...do videos proving what you're saying especially the heavy arrows are less accurate part I'd be curious to see that
I had a whole instagram story showing it. And I didn’t say they’re less accurate. I said they’re less forgiving when it comes to shot placement because of the trajectory. Mis judge the distance by two yards at 35-40 yards and your going to hit 5-6” low
@@InsideOutPrecision in the beginning you said detriment to accuracy then paused and went in a different direction. I wrote this before you came back on the subject some and kinda cleared that up. Sorry for jumping the gun and leaving comments before the video was finished.
Oh boy!! Here we go😆🍿🍿🍿
This is the best video regarding this crazy topic. Thank You!!
Your welcome
And the heavy air await works man it's been working for the turn of time think about it we never knew back in the day when you'll shoot aluminum arrows you'll shoot Is 56 or 700 grains
I’m right at 500 grain and making sure to keep broadheads sharp. My opinion is this weight works best with my bow, tune, with greatest amount of accuracy at my given ranges. This is something that everyone should play with, and find something that works best for them. I’m of the thought process that if it’s too light, the bow is wasting energy and creating noise as the arrow can’t absorb all of the bows energy. And if you go heavier than your bow can power, it ends up short on potential stored energy so you just run into a slow arrow with no trajectory.
Well put! My point exactly
Thank you for the reassurance that 11% foc is suffice! My current bow setup for a short draw is 26" @ 40#. My current arrow setup weighs 385gr with 8.8% foc and I saw the wind beat it up 😔Once I build up strength to 45#, I'll add 25gr to my broadhead and then I'll be at 12.1% foc. I was worried that still wouldn't be enough yet it sounds like I'll have enough momentum, speed, and flat-ish flight path.
Great video. Yeah there are tradeoffs in archery. I pull 29” on a Mathews at 70# with Easton Axis 5mm @503 grains. I use fixed broadheads. I shoot mid 270s. I guess based on this video I’m out of spec. When I shot lighter Gold Tip X Hunters I had terrible issues with the arrows breaking after arrowing a whitetail. With my existing setup my only issue is I blast so hard without breaking and go deep into the ground. If not Easton Axis then what arrow should I shoot to get into the Inside Out Precision spec??
There's nothing wrong with heavy arrows. It's all about what your goal is. The heavy arrows give more forgiveness in shot placement, but not in range. Light arrows are more affected by bone hits and shot angle. Give and take. Pick your poison.
30.25", 80#, ~650gr arrow, ~265fps
Also velocity isn't the critical factor in stability at range.
No ruffled feathers. Everyone has an opinion. It boils down to keeping your bow tuned, focusing on optimal arrow flight, and shooting a weight/trajectory that you are comfortable with. I follow the Ranch Fairy and don't agree with everything he says, but his main focus (as is Dr. Ashby's) is on accuracy and structural integrity. If you have a finely tuned setup, arrows don't fly sideways. I don't hunt Elk or any animal in terrain where I have 60 plus yard shots so trajectory isn't as important to me. Great arrow flight, shot placement, and shot noise reduction is. Love your channel. Just don't agree with everything you said on this subject.
A ton of this heavy arrow stuff is about selling something new also. One needs to know their arrows trajectory to whatever range. Especially with fixed pins. Whatever your poundage and draw length build an arrow that has a decent flat trajectory. It’s ok if it’s borderline heavy but it DOES NOT have to be 500 grains. I’m 28” @ 60#’s shooting a 407 grain hunting arrow total weight. At 264 fps I get pass thru on deer so easy. Fixed 2 & 3 blade heads only. And I know my arrows trajectory exactly to 60 yards. People need to shoot at horizontal lines, not stupid circles, enough shots at multiple yardages to KNOW how to read their fixed pins especially. Just because you have a slider sight does not mean you will have time to adjust it. It’s just like knowing your bullet trajectory and what hash mark to use in that expensive rifle scope.
Ive shot with 430 to 640. Overall around 550 is probably best.. but I'm sticking with 640... and 640 just works better on game.
And the pin gap thing is mostly wrong. Light arrows drop off faster at distance... heavy arrows carry their weight and trajectory
460/510 31 inch draw but bad shoulder. 270 fps is my target +- 5fps. X impact / iron will and your there. 15/18 % Foc. I'm to old to change now.
If a person weighed the arrows of most bowhunters, I wonder what the average weight would be. If it is around 400 grains, then 450-500 grains would be the weight where "heavy" comes into play based on the average. 700 grains is extremely heavy. If an arrow fails, based only on its weight, and not its trajectory - then they fail due to being too light rather than too heavy.
I think the fundamental flaw in Ashbey's report is not the physics but the claim that "Lack of penetration is the number one cause of a hit being non-lethal." I believe that to be categorically false. I would bet my beloved Bowtech and my 433 grain RIPs that FAR more game are lost every year from poor shot placement than lack of penetration.
So, I accidentally built a heavier arrow. I’m drawing 70# and wanted to make sure my arrow was good enough to bust through a hog. 250gr cut on contact broadhead, and a 100 gr insert. Was expecting to get close to 600, but wanted to stay under 650. Ended up at 700 gr. 250 spine black eagle. Didn’t take into consideration of the arrow being cut. Could have been lighter but I went full send. Next set will be lighter. But I also sorta planned to draw 80# with the arrows. 🤷♂️ things happen.
I believe you are completely correct. I'll take a light fast arrow over a lead balloon arrow that looks like the golden arches any day. Accuracy is far more important than trying to put an arrow through a rock on the other side of the deer you are shooting at . I shoot grim reaper mechanical broadheads with close to ibo rated arrow weight (which is what bows are designed around) and pass through every deer I've shot since switching to grim reapers cause I lost the biggest buck of my life due to lack of penetration with a rage broadhead. Example, I've blown through deer with 348 grain arrow with grim reaper mechanical only shooting 57 pounds. Shot placement and speed =Accuracy. Take a sloppy shot get sloppy results , heavy arrows only reduce accuracy. Happy hunting and God bless
I agree with this. However, there are certain spots where short shots are certain, and quartering to angle is likely. I want the heavy arrow punch for that situation only. I have a 3 pin slider - i carry 3 600 grain arrows with a small fixed blade, and 3 420 grain arrows with the same heads. the 20 yard pin produces identical impacts with both weight arrows. The 30 and 40 yard pins are set for the 600 grain trajectory, and the top pin and slider is set for the lighter arrow out to 100 yards. The areas I use the heavy arrow are terrain funnels with 30 yard max shots. In open fields and longer shots I use the lighter, faster arrow. Works great for me. To be fair, I'm shooting 64 lbs at 31.5" draw, so even my 600 grain arrows are at 250 fps.
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Forgiveness in trajectory!!! Got on the heavy arrow kick a few years back.yeah they blow right through a animal but they trajectory is horrible !!hunting in thick swampy cover where every branch is in they way to the target...lighter is better...53 lbs 27 inch draw 445 grains
I have never NOT had a pass through on an animal with my 505’s. I may have a draw of:
31”@80lb but one of the fun things about archery is shooting long distance.
I shoot 30.5" 80# with a 570gr arrow going 292fps. Did not penetrate a cows shoulder last season. I'm dropping too 520 this year and dropping some draw weight and won't lose any momentum but I'll be more accurate
I agree with you totally. I have been shooting a 430-grain arrow for decades now. My bow is perfectly tuned, and I am getting exceptional arrow flight. That being the case I have consistently blown that arrow through animals with ease. There is no animal on the North American continent that will survive an arrow behind the shoulder from my bow.
If you are shooting a modern compound bow of 60 lbs. or greater draw weight and you can't get a pass through using a 425 to 450 grain arrow with a trocar tipped fixed head like a Muzzy or a 4-blade cut on contact head like a Magnus Stinger then there is something terribly, terribly, wrong with your set up. And it ain't the weight of your arrow. A bow of a particular draw weight, draw length, brace height and cam configuration is going to generate a certain level of power. You cannot make that bow more powerful by shooting heavier arrows. You can shoot a 400-grain arrow faster or a 700-grain arrow slower, but the math will work out to about the same energy level. You may see a minor increase in momentum with the heavier arrow by not nearly enough to justify the detrimental effect on your arrow's trajectory IMHO.
Now, if (like that Ranch Pansy dude) all you are going to do is sit over a corn feeder and shoot feral hogs from 10 yards away then I guess arrow trajectory doesn't mean much. But for most folks who shoot a little farther a flatter trajectory means minor misjudgments in distance will not increase the chance of missing the kill zone. And the number one reason for a lost animal is not lack of penetration it's making a bad hit. And it's not even a close race between those two reasons.
Another bullshit thing with the same heavy arrow crowd lead by the Ranch Pansy is trying to convince people shooting a modern compound that they need to tip these rebar weight arrows with a two blade broadhead. OH, and it has to be a single bevel two blade broadhead. Because as we all know double beveled heads mysteriously stopped killing animals years ago. So yeah, you got to get the Ashby approved single bevel heads at 80 bucks per three pack or all the deer you shoot will just laugh and walk away.
End result? This movement has convinced people to use arrows so heavy that it reduces their arrow flight to the same trajectory of a baseball thrown by a 3-year-old. And to tip that arrow with a two blade ridiculously expensive single bevel broadhead which I promise you ON AVERAGE will give you shitter blood trails than a 3 or 4 blade. And all for what? So, you can bury an arrow an extra inch in the dirt on the other side of a deer? Most dangerously it has convinced some of these people that their new set up will blow through a deer's shoulder bones if they should need it to. News Flash, no it won't. Not consistently anyway. No head/arrow combo will.
Stop being sheep people.
you should not be guessing at yardage and lord knows animals dont move so it dont matter how well you shoot if they move. shoot what ya want ive been hunting for 30 years heavy has always worked better. had zero problems with 650 grains im now at 550 and love it shooting 550 at 277 fps plenty fast
That's right where I'm at, I'm pulling 26.5" at 70lbs and my arrows are 438gr going around 270fps
That's my thinking as well. Your arrow needs a proper weight, your not throwing feathers or rocks. My arrows weigh 485gr. I mostly hunt turkey and deer.
I couldn't agree more with this! I'm a 440gr-480gr guy! I'd rather keep my speed and flat trajectory! Speed kills!
You're spot on I try to explain this to guys on Facebook I'm a 28.5 drawlengh shooting a 28in Fmjs 340s at 469grs 66.3lbs at 283fps out of a Vertix there's a fine line in performance with speed and weight and speed lose and heavier arrows have a reverse effect unless you increase poundage into the system they need to experiment at the range but I'm happy with 83ft of energy st 66pds that will take anything In North America my opinion is heavy arrows are better for traditional shooters with finger shooting with less influence on the arrows for better recovery at much closer range 10 to 25yards maximum.
Completely agree.
I think if you are hunting pigs over a feeder at 20 yards and that’s the only distance you have to worry about, heavy up if that’s your thing.
Any other kind of hunting a well tuned bow and a “normal” arrow will work (and has worked) very well.
I try an build for a speed of around 280fps. I want the balance mentioned in the video. As you decrease speed the drop is not a 1-1 comparison. The difference in arc from an arrow going 300 vs an arrow going 280 is definitely not the same as the arc between an arrow going 280 vs an arrow going 260 even though the difference between the two sets of arrows is the same. I get that momentum drastically increases when you add weight however putting it into practical situations you start to realize the sacrifice in speed might not be worth it. I have no experience shooting through large or hard targets however I’ve seen a 450 grain arrow that I was worried wouldn’t have the penetration ability zoom through a deer and fly 30 yards into a mount of dirt. In my opinion if you truly worry about penetration your broad head choice matters more than your arrow choice.
I agree that tuning is the most important and that you can get to heavy but the heavy arrows do maintain they’re velocity better than light arrows. I had bad experience with light arrows with expandables ,and good, but the bad was unexplainable. And the heavier I’ve got the better performance I’ve got and I’ve slowly made my way to 535 which I’ve had good experiences with it through whitetail shoulder blades. But like you said the most important thing is the arrow tuned and a good broadhead. I also disagree that short/light draw should shoot lighter arrows
I have a 27” draw length, 70# draw, and I have been running a 410-415gr arrow with 14% FOC since about 2005 and have literally gotten 100% pass through on every animal I’ve shot. This year I’m jumping up to 80# draw and I replaced my 100gr broadhead with a 125gr broadhead for a total arrow weight of 437 grains. My bow is perfectly tuned and I know how to shoot it. This whole heavy arrow thing that the doc and the fairy are pushing may work for them, but the 20+ dead animals I have on the wall would argue different. I’ve shot them anywhere from 15y-55y and blew right through every one of them using both fixed and mechanical broadheads. Tune your bow and practice good shot placement and you can kill anything out there.