Wonderful to work together on this collaboration, Andrew! Your channel has been such an inspiration for me and I'm just so thankful for your trailblazing work making religious studies accessible on this platform. Hope to hang out at the AAR/SBL this fall!
Idk but for some reason referring to magicians as “ritual specialists” tickle me. Like my first job out of high school I was a “customer service associate” instead of a “cashier” 😂
This Great video has made me illiterate and now i tell people i dont need to read books because youtube lies are sufficient to put in my garbage brain.
He spat on the ground and rubbed it on his eyes because it was an ancient Jewish custom to spit on the ground beside blind people to disrespect them. So to hear the spit touch the ground and believe that you'll still be healed requires enormous faith.
My dad grew up in Fiji. And used to tell stories about people who used to go to church on Sunday, but then go into forest at night to do magic. So of course the way he would tell it, gave me the impression that Fiji was chock full of evil wizards. Though in reality they were most likely just double dipping in religion, like in a lot of colonised lands. Still made my childhood feel very magicial thinking there's Islands full of secretive spell casters.
I am from the Yucatan Península. I have and acquantaince who is a x'men (pronounced sh-men) a mayan shaman. He is also a very devout catholic who does voluntary work for a local Franciscan monastery and attends mass every sunday. I asked him if the priest has any issue with his "pagan" side and he answered that not only he doesnt but also sometimes recommends him to people in need of "healing". Also, one of his nephews is interested in becoming a priest.
@@JustMeRosh Yeah it's pretty much the same in New Zealand. As you have like the Ratana Church which is a blend of Māori spirituality/beliefs and Christianity. I once went on a forestry program. Where they rolled out an elderly tohunga to warn us all about ghosts in the forest for like two hours. He even said that if you're Christian to say a prayer to your god, if you don't know the right Karakia to say. In the event you run into one.
I'm really impressed by this video...I feels like it's much more than just an overview of a topic or question, but is rather a deep dive into the sources with the intention of demonstrating an actual thesis that engages with the literature. In short, it's academic discourse happening on RUclips. As a grad student, I find this very exciting. Keep up the good work!
@@MagicJesus Celsus also means: high, tall, noble, prominent, and it was a name purposely given to many kids. Some Celsuses: Aulus Cornelius Celsus (c. 25 BC - c. 50 AD), an encyclopedist best known for his medical writings Aulus Marius Celsus, a Roman senator whose career began under Nero Tiberius Julius Celsus Polemaeanus, commonly known as Celsus (ca. 45 - before ca. 120); Roman senator, consul. Ephesus Publius Juventius Celsus (AD 67- AD 130), a Roman jurist, praetor, governor, consul Tiberius Julius Candidus Marius Celsus, aka Tiberius Julius Candidus; a Roman senator who lived during the Flavian dynasty. Saint Celsus (aka Celestinus or Cellach of Armagh), 1080-1129 AD); archbishop of Armagh Celsus and Marcionilla early Christian martyrs (in the time of Diocletian); Celsus, young son of Marcionilla. Celsus, a martyr; see Nazarius and Celsus: bodies discovered by Saint Ambrose. The most famous is not a proper Celsus, but one who made their own pseudonym referring to Celsus (the first of the list): Paracelsus (above or beyond Celsus) 'Celso' is a masculine proper name in Spanish, derived from Celsus, and i bet other languages have their own descendants of Celsus Celsus as an adjective is the root of the words excel, excellent, excelence I don't know if the anty-christian Celsus existed or not, but you can't dismiss it by the name alone.
A great video as always. As someone who studies magic and religion in the middle ages, the question of magic vs. miracle is always present, as well as the distinction between what we call magic and what people at the time did. 21:53 also Heidi Wendt was my professor for a class on Roman religion during my undergrad. She's such a great woman!
Indeed, every time I encounter a scholar attempting to define magic, I enter their definition into a big spreadsheet. Rest assured...each and every definition is different!
Is that a spreadsheet you would be willing to share? If not, I understand. It is basically asking for the CliffsNotes of a large body of work that you have done.
@@ReligionForBreakfast The way I see it, magic is that which comes from a source that could otherwise be mundane, whether that be the magician themselves or some ritual tool that is made of otherwise mundane substance. A person who sees it in a negative light would say it is subverting a mundane thing to do what it is not meant to. A person who sees it in a positive light would say that it is bringing forth a power that is meant to be there but is normally inaccessible for some reason. Miracle, on the other hand, is brought forth by something that is meant to be beyond the power of the physical world. A god, demigod, or otherwise divine being enacts miracles and that is power that they are understood to have in their most natural state. In short, Gods enact miracles because they are by nature supernatural. Wizards conduct magic because it allows a mundane thing to access the supernatural.
Im not religious but i love learning about anything and this was really interesting, never heard someone speaking of religious themes in this way before.
The fact that you put Harry Potter and Gandalf side by side as modern wizards is actually interesting in itself, because the nature of these two characters and their magic is very different. Harry Potter is a mostly normal human who was born with magical abilities, and is largely free to use them how he wishes. Gandalf, by contrast, is basically an angel taking on human form, sent by the other angels for a specific purpose (to rally Middle Earth against Sauron) and under significant constraints from those who sent him (specifically not to overpower the people he is trying to rally, or to fight power with power- Gandalf is reluctant to use his power directly). Both of these are called “wizards,” but the nature of their magic is very different with significant implications for how they act in the story. I guess this also demonstrates how categories that seem simple are usually fuzzier than they look
i think it’s kind of like dc vs marvel where dc is heroes being human and marvel is humans being heroes. i also think tolkien’s soft magic system is more bible-like, as it truly does feel like gandalf is performing miracles instead of his magic being just a mechanic within the world like hp
Originally, in the Hobbit, Gandalf was your first kind of wizard. He didn't become an angelic being until Tolkien incorporated his other mythology into the tale.
in a way police reports are just the modern version of curse tablets… both are made out to some sort of higher power but effectively discarded into a pit
ReligionforBreakfast I love your videos! I love how unbiased and objective and critical you are when discussing your research and your work! It’s definitely something that we need to see more people doing!
I grew up around the corner from this kid who became a Black Israelite when he grew up. I was raised in the Baptist church and did a lot of Bible study, so he and I used to have long discussions about religion. I'll never forget his take on Jesus based on his learnings. He believed Jesus existed, but that he was a sorcerer. He said there were texts that talked about the lost years of Jesus, and during those lost years he travelled to India where he learned the mystical arts, and the miracles he performed when he reappeared as an adult were the result of his sorcerery. I always found this very interesting. And we had that discussion way back in the 90's. So, of course the title of this video immediately caught my attention, as I have never heard anyone else bring this up...
If that were all true it would make the scripture wrong where the pharisee said that he had a demonic spirit and Jesus called them out and told them they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Jesus really WOULD have had an evil spirit. If Jesus was just a magician then all of our faith is in vain, there is no hope of salvation, we are all doomed.
@@michaelszczys8316a.k.a Seal of Solomon. Give the Jewish Babylonian Talmud a reading too, more specifically Tractate Gittin 68: Demons and the Temple. Very interesting read, mentions the ring.
As a Persian familiar with Zoroastrianism, I always thought that Jesus was probably a Magi similar to Zoroaster; that is why the three wise men predicted his birth. Magi in Persia were actually people with knowledge in philosophy and science as well as metaphysic and not sorcerers. Sorcery is forbidden in Zoroastrianism.
@@ShahanshahShahin yeah but actually is sorcery, it’s forbidden in the bible, so there has to be a definition for what it is, and like the commenter said forbidden in Zoroastrianism, Like is it just lying and deceiving and putting on a show to convince people you have power? Or is it a practice that actually has results?
I wish we'd had more youtube channels like this back when I was a student of history and religious studies! Also, really enjoyed the Star Wars clips, might not be a student anymore, but always a nerd.
I would like to make a distinction regarding Gandalf's in-universe characterization. The word wizard is a translation of the elven word istari which are a group of imortal beings sent to help the men against Sauron. So he is more like an angel and not a mere human wizard. Tolkien makes this distinction between good forces who want to heal and protect and malevolent forces who want to opress.
I’m recalling that the only miracles that Jewish and Greco-Roman critics of early Christianity actually disputed the entire occurrence of were the virgin birth and the resurrection. All those supernatural occurrences attributed to Jesus in between those events were culturally normative for that time and place, the only question was how it was done (see the Beelzebul accusation) not that they happened. If Jesus walked the land performing healings and exorcisms as described in the Gospels the only thing shocking and note worthy about it was him not charging people.
Jesus had to use material components like most spell casters, but as a Divine Soul sorcerer, he also had access to metamagics that could allow him to cast without components, or perhaps at a range beyond the normal range of the spells, assuming of course he had either the sorcery points available or the spells slots available to convert TO sorcery points.
Just to comment on the first example of using mud as a means of healing, you would hear the argument from some Christians that it is reflective of a pattern of God to use physical means for spiritual benefit (ex: water used in regeneration in baptism, or bread and wine in the Eucharist). There’s also something to be said for the combination of spit/water from the Pool of Siloam (symbolizing physical and spiritual cleansing) and dirt (calling back to Adam being made from dust) being used to restore a man’s body.
Excellent work! Ona side Note: Magos and mageia have positive connotation in some contexts. For example Apuleius of Madaura in his apology, frames mageia as the sacred religion of persian priests, making the distinction with goeteia ( in the interes of refuse an accusation of magic), and in some Magical Papyri, like PGM IV the ritual specialist calls himself magician, and the rite magic, framing the concept as a form of mysteric and ancient religious knowledge.
I love it, just one correction, the Magi were not Persian, they were very African. The tale of the three wise men being from India and Persia is an Armenian retelling of the story.
@@Traewing Source? The Gospels don't specifically say that the wise men came from Persia-or even that there were three of them-but it does call them “magi from the East”.
@@MADMACHlNEand considering the Zoroastrian origin of the term and the Greek trope of eastern miracle-workers it's safe to assumed they were implied to be Persian if anything
you come to the same exact conclusion one of my friends is arguing in her thesis and you cite her thesis advisor, who was also one of my profs in undergrad! stumbling upon this video is so so cool
I love your videos! This is exactly what I want from religious studies, and what I never got back when I was in school and university: scholarly, nuanced, unbiased, contextualized analysis.
Knowing that this is one of your areas of personal interest, I've been looking forward to more expansion on this topic. Thank-you for opening my eyes to the fact that religion can be analyzed without all the extra fluff and moralizing.
@@PickmeshaJones My point is that very few people can do it from an objective, rational stand-point. Most people that talk about a religion are doing so because they're trying to sell you an idea. Religion for Breakfast does it to provide an accurate summary of what we factually know about them.
@J Lund A connecting principle , linked to the invisible? Almost imperceptible? Something inexpressible! Science insusceptible, logic so inflexible. But acausally connectible.
I really appreciate how carefully you define terms. Helps to understand the journey of your research, and avoid undue offense. Obviously important for theological discussions. Also, you've got a really nice moustache
You know of all the channels on RUclips about religion I really like yours the best, a lot of others seem to have bias, some a lot more than others towards subjects. You have never shown me even a hint of that. I also enjoy Esoterica. Thank you, Keep doing this brother bear, I will keep watching.
As an undergrad, I took a class called "Magic and Medicine in the Ancient World." At the same time, I was delving into the world of medical anthropology. I was rather intrigued (and intellectually delighted) to find that there was a tremendous amount of overlap. Naturally, my interests in bioarchaeology implied, invariably, a fascination with medicinal traditions through time and space, including (but not limited to) the etiological and ontological elements of illness, disease, and well-being. It is important to remember, however, that similar "magics" are practiced today; likely influenced by preexisting, longstanding ethnomedical traditions. As such, I feel it is especially important to understand, holistically, the contexts in which many of these traditions arose, persist, and continue to evolve.
People forget that the line between "folk medicine", magic, and allopathic medicine is not set in stone. They change over time. Aggressive scepticism towards "alternative" treatments is misguided and often a cover for dismissing Indigenous medicine. Not to rehash a different video, but the example of "meditation" is pretty instructive - first it was disbelieved and appropriated for aesthetics, but now that it's been stripped of it's Asian cultural context, it's been accepted into allopathic medicines.
@@theMoporter Evidence based medicine doesn't really care about where an idea originated. There are many drugs where the compound was isolated from a source that was looked into because it was used in traditional herbalism. artemisinin quinine willow ephedra poppy are just a few plants that have drugs made from them that were once used in herbal medicine. Most plants that have medicinal properties also have chemicals in them that cause bad side effects and depending on how they were grown and the specific plant will have wildly different amounts of active ingredients, so it makes sense to figure out what the chemical in the plant that is the active ingredient so you can have fewer side effects and be more sure of the dose you are actually getting. There were variolation ceremonies for smallpox in India, and when a safer method of protection from smallpox arrived - vaccination - sometimes ceremonial practices were observed in some regions so that people wouldn't feel they were losing their traditions when changing to a safer medical procedure. All of the contexts and traditions of any medical practice aren't actually part of what makes anything work, they are just acting as a placebo. If you want to do all that ok, go ahead, but there is no reason to do that from a medical perspective. I sometimes wonder if we should invent a new ceremony for vaccination that appeals to the people who like the aesthetics of the cultures that are antivax, New-Age or Chistian or any other group that is antivax. There is almost nothing that is more similar to homeopathy than vaccination, a tiny tiny amount of a harmful thing is put into your body that boosts your bodies natural immune system is ironically so in line with it. If we dressed it up as a ceremony maybe some people would get a vaccine that wouldn't otherwise.
Tidbit... Did you know "Jesus" is suffering from a toothache in the entire bible. If you notice, he is the light and the path... The word and Son of God. An open mouth gets fed!(Light and the way)...Cleansings is close to Godliness(The Son Of God). If you go backwards, you'll see that "God"; a father before Jesus, does not seem to know the importance of washing out the mouth after eating.. but The Child learns to do so. In those days tooth decay and cavities were a great problem..and the solution was worst. So Jesus spoke and all was good... For he had the "Good" word and he was "Pure". Another: did you know ;medically, a person's diet is what makes the difference in us ALL. Calcium and protein usually means your northern and are Anglo-Saxon....high sugar (starch and unrefined sugars) means your closer to the equator... Even down to having Tea or Coffee affects your entire flora/fauna and in turn you are as unique as an ecosystem and require special attention within your ecosystem.. meaning , You Could Be Your Own Medicine!
@Buddy "...these things will be back..." Nope, spirituality has always played second fiddle to materialism. Been that way since Ugh, the cave man, knapped the first handheld chopper from a flint cobble. Humans seek to materially alter the world around them for practical and mundane reasons. Drawing pictures on walls deep in caves was, at best, a sideline activity
There's a bit from Dan Carlin's series on Persia that speaks to this blurred line a lot, where he says the Babylonians are so fascinating because they're meticulously scientific about things like astrology and sorcery, like if one of the tools in the physicist toolbox was a ouija board. Things that today we define as "magic" were, at the time, just The Way The World Worked. You went to someone wise, told them your problem, and they prescribed you an anti-demon talisman, cause you sounded super cursed. Sometimes it was more medicinal, sometimes it was more religious, sometimes it was political science by way of star charts. Magic is just technology that wound up not actually working.
They basically went with the old system of writing stuff down. And the same mix of history and mythology also is common in old literature. There wasn't much difference between Gigamesh, who was two thirds god, riding to the edge of the world to find immortality and Paris fighting at Troy for the most beautiful woman on earth or the Imperium Romanum doing a census in the client state of Judea. But not all of these stories have equal amounts of history.
Because modern science works so well right? Gotta tow the line, the consensus, the cancelling of common sense in lieu of political correctness. Remember, there are 52+ genders, men can become women, IQ is racist, and the COVID vaxx is safe and effective.
I know it is claimed that ancient and modern Greek are remarkably by similar for the number of centuries that have passed. But surely ancient vocabulary and pronunciation are exactly what a modern Greek speaker would expect to find more challenging about the ancient language.
@@IDreamOfLogic oh dear. This person doesn't realize modern Greece exists. Actually, you could argue that the modern nation state of Greece is the first time Greece appeared in the world, since anfient Greece was not one political entity but several.
@@joeschmoe24-7 you are mean for no reason. Does it make you feel good? It was odd that I learned something about the language I speak since birth. I did not expect that, on a channel about religions.
There was an interesting pen and paper rpg I played years ago that portrayed Magic as a reality defying effort that could drive the mage insane, especially if others witnessed the magic. However, a particularly pious mage could take a feat that let them perform a finite number of "miracles" allowing them to perform magic without risking their sanity. Other than that, there was very little difference between the two.
I came here thinking this video was gonna sound like every Sunday school class and sermon I went to as a kid where they tell you you’re not allowed to even think that God is magic. But you are actually taking apart all the terms and types and giving a very detailed coverage of what and whatnot might be qualified as magic or good magic or black magic. Truly intrigued by this video.
What I expected: “Did Jesus actually perform miracles or was he a charlatan?” What I got: “What D&D class was he?” (No offense intended, it was informative regardless)
If jesus was fake. The blind man would have told everyone. If Jesus didnt walk on water, he wouldn't have 2 billion followers. To think he stays up at night setting up magic tricks for the next day just to die in the end is illogical. Besides, they couldn't bring any charges against him during trial and surely being a charlatan was not one of them....
This is such an interesting discussion, thank you for this video! I (a Christian) was recently discussing with a friend (former Christian, current witchcraft/divination practitioner in the Norse neo-pagan stream) about the blurry line between “witchcraft” & religious practice in the Bible. You can find examples curses, ritual objects, & sanctioned forms of divination (Urim & Thumim, casting lots, etc.) in the Bible alongside prohibitions against practicing magic/fortune telling. It’s very interesting! As far as freelance ritual experts…also very interesting! In the book of Acts Paul (& I think Peter) are said to have performed a few healings/miracles in the style of Jesus. All three of them make a big deal of offering their services for free (according to the New Testament), which I guess may have been a difference from other ritual experts who made their livings from their work?
What people dont realize is God gambles with humans and their lives as well as their futures. Including forcefully attempting against people for his own reasons. Illusion is a choice but so is freewill.
Propably the most interesting video I 've seen recently! This moral dimension of wonders is very helpful when you think about the way people understand reality. Thank you very much for this great video
@@decem_sagittae thanks for your pedantry. your self-congratulatory efforts to shame a bit of hyperbolic gratitude within a stranger’s RUclips comment will help elevate us “civilians” to your intellectual level, I’m sure
As for myself, I can say that I grew up with the idea of Jesus as a teacher and grew up around books and teachers in my life. Funny how that builds the relationship with the way we experience life.
Interesting stuff - I’ve always found it fascinating that sorcery was seen as a real opposition to the early church, especially in Acts with the stories of Simon Magus and Elymas. Do you know if there is any indication that the ‘Holy Spirit’ as conferred in Acts 8:19 was a known power to sorcerers/magicians of that time and place, or could this passage be an indication that early Christian authors wanted to show the superiority of the Holy Spirit/Miracles in Jesus’ name (greater authority or prestige) compared to those of other magicians? Thanks for the great videos!
For those that want real Bible Godly witchcraft read Leviticus 14:48-53 Anti- Mold Potion: You'll need 2 birds, fresh water, a knife, mint, herbs, red string and something to splatter bird blood with.
My 1.25 cent for OP Qs based on lots of stuff- Ancient Israel was always in competition with other gods since Genesis. Eg the light on fire tree branches drenched in water competition. N.T. authors may have modernised it to fit with Greek trends just as OT did with the surrounding cultures. They are just a small nation amongst empire sized ones. culture works from greater to the smaller, not the other way around, as in the Bible. Psychologically, ancient Israel writers possibly over exaggerate and compensate, expressing themselves to a fantasy of escapism and guidance. Which nearly all ancient writers do. Earth was a fantasy world to them. Mystery and wonder. As such so too are their stories.
The jewish mystics / priests seem to have suffered from criticism and inferiority complexes for a long time, compare Moses and Aaron competing with the egyptian priests and magicians or ... i forgot which prophet it was that had the "miracle off" with the wet altar but the scene is pretty unforgettable.
This concept adds so much color to a verse that I always found suspicious: "And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." - Matthew 13:58
Learning about the contemporary connotations of the word magus kinda makes the whole Simon Magus story read pretty differently. Like, it's not just that he thought he could buy the power of God, but that it's specifically the author wanting to distinguish that what the Apostles (and by implication Jesus himself) were doing was emphatically NOT mageia.
I found the idea that these "magic" objects were produced by religious figures interesting. In Italian folktales, when the role typical of a fairy is played by a male figure, he usually gets called either a "wizard"/"magician" (mago) or a "monk"/"hermit" (monaco/eremita)
Great video! I actually had a similar debate a few weeks ago. I loved hearing your well thought out examination - wish I could have pointed the others towards it while we were still discussing it :)
Was wondering what the tone of this video may be and was bracing myself for cringey over simplification of history and someone trying to cope with their repressed religious trauma. Was pleasently surprised to find an articulate and fair exploration of the sources and history. Thank you!
My family and I have been enjoying this channel a lot. Growing up in a religion but never really learning its history is strange and tragic. That's our family though.
Makes sense. My Grandaddy used to fool the masses like a shaman with simple mechanical tricks. I imagine it was much easier to do that in the preindustrial ages.
Mere fact that now we have more advanced technology does not mean that people are more wise. I don't think it is more difficult to fool people than it was 2000 years ago...
His most complicated trick to perform was the reviving, since he revived and still had some of his wounds and his followers touched his wounds to believe
Could u image how easy it was to manipulate people then esp if u had a lot of time to think and come up with things. Or how many times these story have been rewritten. Almost impossible to know the real truth of those times.
@blakejamesiam1410 the bible today is if I can remember 99.3% the same as the 2000 year old ones but then again their are words in Hebrew that can't be translated into English properly
In my Social Psychology class the teacher was also an amateur magician. In one of the classes he said he was going to do some tricks and some readings, emphasizing that these were all tricks. After some readings two of the people in my class said that they did not want to see this anymore because it was demonic. This is a college class and the teacher made it known these were simply tricks. If some of these people responded that way what would people without the combined knowledge that is our present world have made of someone who managed to learn some simple reading and distraction tricks. I still think one of the best examples of the magic ability of Jesus is in the clip of Family Guy, Jesus magic tricks.
Just because someone says its a simple trick doesnt mean it doesnt have demonic familiar spirits behind it or them. Not saying he used them knowingly or unknowingly but demonic forces have been used behind a majority of majic. And secondly Jesus was not Jesus so by name only to it as a magician is negated right there. Secondly... not sure which one but a magician came to purchase and learn the miracles inwhich was denied. Secondly Yeshua aka Jesus never went away from Torah inwhich called magic evil and a sin... so this guys analogy is far from the truth.
@@theodorejenkins6066 Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."
@@theodorejenkins6066 Kabbala appeared in the 12th century, and it is completely heretical to Judaism and Christianity. It belongs to a few sects, and (not suprisingly) popular in Hollywood.
I just found ur channel after watching your interview with Alex O'Connor. I am enjoying your videos. I like your unbiased approach so far. You mentioned historical references to Jewish exorcists. There is a reference in Acts about this: Acts 19:13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
The area I would like to have seen you pin down more precisely was the literary role of Simon Magus in Acts of the Apostles. Simon clearly interpreted the power of the Holy Spirit as a supernatural power that could be ritually imparted onto him through the laying on of hands and that would supplement his own suite of ritual abilities. The curse that he is given for offering money for the Holy Spirit seems to be a literary opportunity for the author of Acts to rebuke any readers who might hold this position. This seems to fall in line with the burning of magical texts in Greece and in the exorcism of the spirit of divination that we see in Acts.
As someone who grew up in a Pentecostal church, believing in & even witnessing the ritual of exorcism & wonder workings, this research means so much to me. Thank you for helping me understand my own humanity.
Something I have always thought he might of existed, people witnessed sight if hand tricks were amazed and chinese wispers do the rest and a story is created that has been changed and adapted over hundreds of years by people who could read and write and took advantage of people who could not.
The Harry Potter example @17:55 isn't a good one in the sense that it's a misunderstanding of Harry Potter and the universe he lives in. A Jedi would have been a better example (i.e. being force sensitive is biological, but being a Jedi is a generally positively regarded occupation). Being a wizard in Harry Potter isn't an occupation, it's biological. Wizards are a species in Harry Potter that are positive to us, the audience, because we see the wizarding world through the lense of Harry Potter and his allies. But to say wizards in Harry Potter are positively regarded by the general populace inside that universe is absolutely not the case. Wizards were forced into hiding because of genocidal persecution, and it's highly likely that - especially after Voldemort and Grindelwald went a bit crazy - the average person in their universe would react in a violent manner towards wizards out of fear. Love the video and content, but bad comparison!
One thing most people don't realize it only takes around 10 years to walk from Great Britain to East China. 10 Years from Northern Europe to South Africa. Give or take 20-50 for mountain, travel stops, etc. When you think of it like this... A lot of theories (Out of Africa theory) becomes more speculative than fact; for example, in Jesus life he could of traveled from Egypt to anywhere in the Middle East safely with in his life span. --- Assuming frequent breaks it quite literally only take the average person one month to walk to Egypt at a very casual pace from Jerusalem. Assuming Frequent Breaks, it'll take around 3-6 months to walk from Great Britain to China. Assuming Frequent Breaks, and you can walk on water. 6 Month to a year getting from China to the US.
there were also an ancient examples of turning water into wine, where you had a pottery container with two sections up to the spout, so you could cover one side and pour water, or the other side to provide wine to the VIP.
@@jclive2860 good grief, you've tripped over yourself to make an embarrassingly irrelevant point. read what N Boyle posted. that's what I responded too. no mention of China or Jesus. go back to Tic-Toc. Adults are talking here.
The study of historical curses (or protection from them) is fascinating when viewed through the lens of mental health. If you irrationally feel like you're always being watched, you might describe an "evil eye" that's been cast on you.
I found the section on exorcism particularly interesting. A few weeks ago a friend and his sister were both "possessed" in front of many of their family. Whatever my own thoughts about this event, to the "victims" and their family, a "demon" took possession of first the sister, then passed on to my friend. The description of exorcism in Jewish and Christian religions is almost the same as for Muslims. Eventually the family found a maulana who was willing to carry out the exorcism, others saying that the demon was too powerful for them. Special prayers and rituals were carried out, and the "demon" was driven out and ordered not to harm humans again. At least one member of the family considered this to be "magical mumbo-jumbo" in a negative way. When I discussed the event with my friend, after his recovery, I asked him if the exorcism was magical, and he said that it definitely was. I then asked if that meant that the maulana was a magician, and his response was less confident. Magician has a negative connotation to my friend, and he was unwilling to attach the label to the maulana. Perhaps this was a similar conflict two thousand years ago. All were willing to accept that magic had occurred, but only critics would be willing to take the next step of stating that Jesus was a magician. His supporters perhaps thought he was, but, because of the negativity of the word, they could not bring themselves to say that he was a magician. Failure to give the title does not mean that most, including even disciples, did not consider Jesus to be a magician, just as my friend would not "insult" the maulana who had "saved" him.
I know that there were pagan critics that called out that Jesus was working _magic_ , I don't remember how that was supposed to go, if he was commanding evil spirits/demons (Luke addresses this criticism) or by some other way. The point is that those pagans at least pretty often didn't deny that Jesus made "miracles", what they argued was that those "miracles" came from the creator god. And of course they did, if they didn't they would basically be Christians. Although I remember perfectly well that Porphyry called out the accuracy of the accounts by the fact that in Mark they called the lake of Galilee a " stormy sea" while it's just a lake. I haven't read that much, but I wonder if that lead him to believe that maybe Jesus didn't make any magic at all.
@@didack1419 I didn't think of the "stormy sea" in relation to the lake until you brought it up. To me there's so much symbolic, esoteric language in the Bible where I first believe something to be analogous before I take it to be literal. You now also have a reply lol
@@stylicho thanks Yeah, I know it's meant to have deeper meaning, I've read that some consider it a representation of God calming the waters of Chaos and stuff. Of course a pagan wouldn't get it, and to be fair, at the end it's gonna be misleading, and people can notice it.
@@didack1419 If Jesus commands demons out of people and speaks to demons that no one but Solomon, How is Jesus not a magician? Christians are just hypocrites that say whatever they do is correct and the rest of the world is wrong. It’s pretty odd when you look at Christianity for what it is and not what it’s believers tell you.
I never came across your channel before, surprisingly. The video about the Good Samaritan parable just popped on my feed earlier today and this is the second video of yours I’m watching. The amount of information and knowledge condensed here is impressive, absolutely worth of praise. And you are non-partisan to a fault 😆. Been a while since I last came upon quality content like this! I’ll probably binge through all your videos in the next few days, heh.
When I hear magician, I think of the modern version of a magician and I believe it applies to ancient people just fine. Though their role is different now, their methods have only refined.
I think the difference is that many more people probably believed in magic. But there really is no difference between faith healers in megachurches and penn and teller, except that penn and teller aren't scamming and lying to people.
So someone who was born blind was only given the illusion of sight? Or he was faking it for twenty-some years, because being a blind beggar on the street is so awesome? There were ancient magicians who did the same kind of tricks modern ones do. Miracle-workers aren’t illusionists. Either someone is healed or they aren’t. None of the acts in the Gospels are illusions or parlour tricks. I’m not saying they necessarily happened, but they weren’t modern magic tricks. It was either fakery, the placebo effect, or real. The fakery aspect would be fairly easy to disprove back in the day, but could have happened. The placebo effect wouldn’t work on most of the miracles recorded.
@@katherinegilks3880 They are called plants. That is when the supposed 'random participant' is actually in on the magic trick. We are also seeing these magic tricks through the lens of thousands of years of worship. Imagine someone like Chris Angel 3000 years ago. I'm just free spinning now, but I mean imagine any decent magician from now, but back in Biblical time, getting any amount of financial backing. They would be Gods yo. Just speculating and stuff off the ideas here. Idk how I feel about that fr lol.
The old magic is still unknown. Maybe future science will find new physics phenomenon like quantum mechanics. Accessing the fourth dimension would be powerful. Almost like time traveling or making atoms change structures.
@@gabrielserrano5054 Just saying something that doesn't exist is unknown, doesn't make it exist my guy. Science that is indistinguishable from magic absolutely could exist in the future or maybe even on other planets somewhere, but that isn't magic and the ancients definitely didn't have it...
Great video! It’s hard to disagree that Smith makes some fairly speculative jumps, and I found your argument about his application of the nomenclature of ancient magical practitioners fairly convincing, but the argument about his use of the magical papyri may not be as solid. Smith isn’t alone in using these papyri to drawn conclusions about eastern Mediterranean magic in earlier centuries. Christopher Faraone also does so, and he shows how Greek and Roman literary texts from the archaic, classical and Hellenistic periods reveal striking parallels with the much later magical papyri. I think Smith deserves more credit than he gets these days, espcially given that he was working with the magical papyri before there was an accessible English translation.
That is the one part I actually disagree most about. Academic jargon is often slightly removed from daily usage. And even the word in use today can mean so many different things. I am just thinking of the way that modern preforming magicians have such a diverse array of thought as to what the word should mean, even inside their niche. For instance Penn of Penn and Teller does not like "magic" that makes an audience thing that anything super-natural occurred.
The blurring of the difference between religious blessings and magician spells remind me of how in Demons Souls it's revealed that Magic and Miracles aren't separate things but come from the same source.
So THAT'S why the Tremere's signature discipline is Thaumaturgy lol. In all honesty, amazing video. Extremely interesting and very well researched and written. Thanks.
I grew up Mormon and you see the same thing with Joseph Smith. He used New England folklore to elevate himself above other people claiming visions at that time. His "seership" was no different than soothsaying and it was also how he translated the BOM. But after he died, people began to instantly rid the church history of these supernatural aspects, instead making people think that he just sat down and read from golden plates to translate the BOM, when in reality he had a rock in a hat, which was superstitious magic-work. It's much more realistic imo to think Jesus was the same. Joseph Smith grew up in a hyper religious time at the tail end of the protestant movement in America, where dozens of people were claiming to be prophets, whereas Jesus was growing up in a time of exorcists and magicians
Joseph Smith was chosen by Jesus - best friends. Sometimes they talked weekly, Jesus giving needed instructions. Except for that time in Missouri when the all-knowing Jesus knew his friend was going to be shot dead ! Or the mis-management of the Ohio Bank, or the whole issue of Polygamy not being accepted.
Something interesting I've noticed in Celtic and other British tales is that magic use can be good or bad, but basically anyone trying to use magic of their own accord is a bad guy. Good magic tends towards non-consensual blessing, or a favour from a non-human who stumbles on the protagonist while they're in a pickle. We don't have original versions of most of these stories, only Christianised ones, so I have to wonder if that changed anything. I'm just saying, it would make sense of the number of talking animals distributing gold/jewel/mountain-filled fruit to distressed royal children.
That seems consistent even with the stories that seem to have survived their Christianizing, like with the fae. Someone who tries to use magic on their own is exercising hubris, while good magic seems to match up with other religious beliefs of the time - that blessings are given for a righteous life, but cannot be demanded.
Sir- your well produced and informative presentations are the best on RUclips. You never act as if you had a dog in the fight- only using the discipline of of historical textual criticism to flesh out a well crafted argument. I await your next presentation- Rich
Tolkien made reference the point that the terms used to describe rituals have strong cultural ties and are not neutral in their meaning. One character had from an early age, a desire for the tales concerning elves and their 'magic' but an elf describes their confusion at the characters desire, as the term magic is used in universe with a negative connotation, whereas the elves mystical capabilities as 'craft' or 'ritual' or even as 'art'...
Interesting, I thought the discussion would go another way : to me a magician is someone who uses tricks to do what appears impossible (changing water in wine, walking on water, multiplication of bread...) and "fooling" the audience. Some people believe Jesus was like that.
They absolutely have videos 'about magic' in that they point out how they are all stories created by people who either didn't understand the world or were actively trying to convince you of something.
You and esoterica help me study these perspectives for my animistic standing. Today, in ceremony, I found the call to return to Jesus for wisdom and to look at him as a magician. Or maybe better to say, a Master.
When I was in vacation bible school as a youngster, there was a church who used a circus as a theme. Each day, a new character was revealed, the Strongman, the Lion Tamer, etc, and each character was an excuse to tell the story of a bible character. On Thursday of that week, they revealed Jesus as a character, and I blurted out that Jesus was The Magician. I remember this in detail because the hours long berating I received was imprinted into me. Apparently Jesus was "The Rock" and calling Jesus a magician was heretical.
Mmm, I feel like this is a very stupid question but, does "rock" mean anything else than a rock? Because what's the point of mentioning a rock as a character? (I've never gone to a circus) :| Why is that remarkable "the rock" compare to anything else? I guess Jesus can't be anthropomorphisized by a human character?
@@didack1419 Their point was that Jesus was the foundation, the fulcrum of our lives. Again, it was vacation bible school. They're not trying to be theologically sound.
I was actually expecting a discussion as to whether Jesus employed sleight of hand or other chicanery to make it seem like he performed miracles. What it was instead was still interesting.
They're called *ILLUSIANS,* Michael! But seriously, same. I feel like this question didn't need an answer, because of course he was a "magician." He used magic to make things happen just like in every other folk tale, only they claimed in this particular case that his magic was given to him by their god.
Celsus argument seems very similar to the argument Pharisees made against Jesus, where they essentially accused Jesus of casting out demons with the power of demons. His response is basically that a house divided against itself cannot stand, and something about blasphemy against the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin. It's little wonder why Celsus's work never survived.
Sympathetic magic, all of his miracles follow an act of faith by someone who needs or is in connection by someone in need. The objects/rituals that people put their faith in, grounds their faith and it acts as type of medium where there faith is transmuted into the thing they are being faithful for. There is faith that the healing can happen, Jesus answers that faith with it getting done. Whenever he is asked to prove himself as a divine being by doing an act of “magic” or miracle he does not do it because there is no faith to Activate the spiritual energy he fosters because they did not initially believe who he said he was. I would say that Jesus as a magician doesn’t encapsulate the transitionary aspect , faith + thaumaturgy, fully. The gospels stance that anyone can access these thaumaturgies through their faith and belief in Jesus as the mediator between God and Man, while being both himself, is one of the main points of the gospels.
I just heard this whole topic on the Magi on the radio 2 days ago. I wanted to hear more on it. I didn't even go searching and I just found it, with the title of video being something I would not have looked for. I'm a believer, regardless! Great work, Thank You !
The accusation that Jesus received exotic training in Egypt by Celsus that Origin denies means that there is more to the miracle/magic distinction than the moral category. Egypt is a real place. So if Jesus received any training in Thaumaturgy in Egypt is not a moral question, but an historical question. So what makes someone a magician as opposed to a miracle worker in the context of 2nd century greco-Roman culture has to do with how one acquired their thaumaturgical arts in an empirical sense, not merely a moral sense.
For more on the history of magic from anthropological, social and cultural perspectives I recommend the book The history of Magic: From Alchemy to Witchcraft, from the Ice Age to the Present' by Chris Gosden
You obviously have spent significant amount of your time thinking about mind and religions, and are trained academically too. Compared to other youtubers of the topics, this is so very different to watch and much less painful as you often address the key points in context, like how you talked about the inner reality of exorcism acts. There is never one side to ritual (or any act), even if that man thinks he is conning everyone and that's it, in reality him and the people that surround him are driven by something common and deeper. And this holds value to discuss and observe. Not a lot of people realize such duality in social acts and human character. Thanks for the content, it is like finding a doctor you can finally trust (it is hard where i live, lol)
I don't think you left out any details. Fascinating. 😊 At the end of the story, thinking of the number of magic practitioners and some conmen at the time 😆 my mind always goes back to Monty Python's Life of Brian.
Key takeaway: Jedi are thaumaturges. Also, subscribe to ESOTERICA: ruclips.net/video/DEwDxn-qqUI/видео.html
Wonderful to work together on this collaboration, Andrew! Your channel has been such an inspiration for me and I'm just so thankful for your trailblazing work making religious studies accessible on this platform. Hope to hang out at the AAR/SBL this fall!
Is Genesis 1 a polytheist creation story? As opposed to Genesis 2?
It would be interesting to see your opinion on Richard Carrier, he's got some very good points about Jesus not being a real person at all.
And Yoda is the Master Thaumaturge!🙏🏼🤭
@@TheEsotericaChannel Luke Woodham repented. Have you?
Idk but for some reason referring to magicians as “ritual specialists” tickle me. Like my first job out of high school I was a “customer service associate” instead of a “cashier” 😂
You was a cashier I assume
Supervisor of monetary flow
Financial Computations Associate
Ambulatory Currency Receptacle
I'm late but a 'ritual' is what archaeologists may call an unknown/lost practice. Like 'we don't know why "this" was done a certain way'..
“You’re a wizard, Jesus.”
-John the Baptist
Lol
"Ah, John; you're off your feckin' head!"
-JC
💀❤️🔥
This is no ordinary mortal. This man must be a god!!!✌
@@hackman669 John the Baptist seems not to have become a follower of Jesus. Quite telling. He likely did not accept him as messiah.
Actually, Jesus was the first Stand User
💯
His stand is called Holy Spirit
Lol at people in the replies that are not in on the joke
Jojosus?
speen
I cannot emphasize enough how well written this analysis is. Thanks so much for what you provide!
I agree
This Great video has made me illiterate and now i tell people i dont need to read books because youtube lies are sufficient to put in my garbage brain.
He spat on the ground and rubbed it on his eyes because it was an ancient Jewish custom to spit on the ground beside blind people to disrespect them. So to hear the spit touch the ground and believe that you'll still be healed requires enormous faith.
"Jesus performs miracles remotely"
Jesus's Zoom based miracle service.
I also thought of online activities when i heard that. Funny how now remotely has come to mean this more and more.
Wouldn't even need Zoom to do it really lol Energy workers do long distance healing by just thinking of the person.
it's called the iN-turn-ET~
@A Baker Of course not, I was joking. Obviously a divine being like him uses Skype /s
Don’t give ideas to the Prosperity Gospel people. Please.
My dad grew up in Fiji. And used to tell stories about people who used to go to church on Sunday, but then go into forest at night to do magic. So of course the way he would tell it, gave me the impression that Fiji was chock full of evil wizards.
Though in reality they were most likely just double dipping in religion, like in a lot of colonised lands. Still made my childhood feel very magicial thinking there's Islands full of secretive spell casters.
That's a cool anecdote.
In Europe it was the priests who were involved in magick and necromany and such. They were the educated and literate who kept up those traditions.
I am from the Yucatan Península. I have and acquantaince who is a x'men (pronounced sh-men) a mayan shaman. He is also a very devout catholic who does voluntary work for a local Franciscan monastery and attends mass every sunday. I asked him if the priest has any issue with his "pagan" side and he answered that not only he doesnt but also sometimes recommends him to people in need of "healing". Also, one of his nephews is interested in becoming a priest.
I'm born and raised in Fiji and I can surely confirm that double dipping in religion, is in fact a common practice here.
@@JustMeRosh Yeah it's pretty much the same in New Zealand. As you have like the Ratana Church which is a blend of Māori spirituality/beliefs and Christianity. I once went on a forestry program. Where they rolled out an elderly tohunga to warn us all about ghosts in the forest for like two hours. He even said that if you're Christian to say a prayer to your god, if you don't know the right Karakia to say. In the event you run into one.
Freelance Ritual Specialist sounds like something you can put on your resume.
Yeah... I suppose it is.
*goes and edits resume*
Jesus: My son, is this your card?
Dude: My God how did he know!?
I'm really impressed by this video...I feels like it's much more than just an overview of a topic or question, but is rather a deep dive into the sources with the intention of demonstrating an actual thesis that engages with the literature. In short, it's academic discourse happening on RUclips. As a grad student, I find this very exciting. Keep up the good work!
@@MagicJesus Celsus also means: high, tall, noble, prominent, and it was a name purposely given to many kids. Some Celsuses:
Aulus Cornelius Celsus (c. 25 BC - c. 50 AD), an encyclopedist best known for his medical writings
Aulus Marius Celsus, a Roman senator whose career began under Nero
Tiberius Julius Celsus Polemaeanus, commonly known as Celsus (ca. 45 - before ca. 120); Roman senator, consul. Ephesus
Publius Juventius Celsus (AD 67- AD 130), a Roman jurist, praetor, governor, consul
Tiberius Julius Candidus Marius Celsus, aka Tiberius Julius Candidus; a Roman senator who lived during the Flavian dynasty.
Saint Celsus (aka Celestinus or Cellach of Armagh), 1080-1129 AD); archbishop of Armagh
Celsus and Marcionilla early Christian martyrs (in the time of Diocletian); Celsus, young son of Marcionilla.
Celsus, a martyr; see Nazarius and Celsus: bodies discovered by Saint Ambrose.
The most famous is not a proper Celsus, but one who made their own pseudonym referring to Celsus (the first of the list): Paracelsus (above or beyond Celsus)
'Celso' is a masculine proper name in Spanish, derived from Celsus, and i bet other languages have their own descendants of Celsus
Celsus as an adjective is the root of the words excel, excellent, excelence
I don't know if the anty-christian Celsus existed or not, but you can't dismiss it by the name alone.
A great video as always. As someone who studies magic and religion in the middle ages, the question of magic vs. miracle is always present, as well as the distinction between what we call magic and what people at the time did.
21:53 also Heidi Wendt was my professor for a class on Roman religion during my undergrad. She's such a great woman!
Indeed, every time I encounter a scholar attempting to define magic, I enter their definition into a big spreadsheet. Rest assured...each and every definition is different!
Is that a spreadsheet you would be willing to share? If not, I understand. It is basically asking for the CliffsNotes of a large body of work that you have done.
@@ReligionForBreakfast What about "the supernatural" in general?
Thank you for your work!
It's simpler than you think, in fact, it is what Thinks You.
*RorriMaesu says useaMirroR*
@@ReligionForBreakfast The way I see it, magic is that which comes from a source that could otherwise be mundane, whether that be the magician themselves or some ritual tool that is made of otherwise mundane substance. A person who sees it in a negative light would say it is subverting a mundane thing to do what it is not meant to. A person who sees it in a positive light would say that it is bringing forth a power that is meant to be there but is normally inaccessible for some reason.
Miracle, on the other hand, is brought forth by something that is meant to be beyond the power of the physical world. A god, demigod, or otherwise divine being enacts miracles and that is power that they are understood to have in their most natural state.
In short, Gods enact miracles because they are by nature supernatural. Wizards conduct magic because it allows a mundane thing to access the supernatural.
Im not religious but i love learning about anything and this was really interesting, never heard someone speaking of religious themes in this way before.
Check out Useful Charts - excellent scholarly vids on religion
The fact that you put Harry Potter and Gandalf side by side as modern wizards is actually interesting in itself, because the nature of these two characters and their magic is very different. Harry Potter is a mostly normal human who was born with magical abilities, and is largely free to use them how he wishes. Gandalf, by contrast, is basically an angel taking on human form, sent by the other angels for a specific purpose (to rally Middle Earth against Sauron) and under significant constraints from those who sent him (specifically not to overpower the people he is trying to rally, or to fight power with power- Gandalf is reluctant to use his power directly). Both of these are called “wizards,” but the nature of their magic is very different with significant implications for how they act in the story. I guess this also demonstrates how categories that seem simple are usually fuzzier than they look
I think youre putting too much thought into what was essentially generalized examples
i think it’s kind of like dc vs marvel where dc is heroes being human and marvel is humans being heroes. i also think tolkien’s soft magic system is more bible-like, as it truly does feel like gandalf is performing miracles instead of his magic being just a mechanic within the world like hp
You forget Gandalf died and was returned . . .
Harry has the magic of the heart as well as Gandalf .. both are rebellious fools full of compassion
Originally, in the Hobbit, Gandalf was your first kind of wizard. He didn't become an angelic being until Tolkien incorporated his other mythology into the tale.
I mean, the curse tablet sounds slightly more practical than filing a police report.
I think I'm going to make one now.
in a way police reports are just the modern version of curse tablets… both are made out to some sort of higher power but effectively discarded into a pit
ReligionforBreakfast I love your videos! I love how unbiased and objective and critical you are when discussing your research and your work! It’s definitely something that we need to see more people doing!
It'll be such a plot twist if we learn that he's a raging evangelical all along
unbiased would be acknowledging that its all utter nonsense and people like Jesus never existed pretty obviously.
I grew up around the corner from this kid who became a Black Israelite when he grew up. I was raised in the Baptist church and did a lot of Bible study, so he and I used to have long discussions about religion. I'll never forget his take on Jesus based on his learnings. He believed Jesus existed, but that he was a sorcerer. He said there were texts that talked about the lost years of Jesus, and during those lost years he travelled to India where he learned the mystical arts, and the miracles he performed when he reappeared as an adult were the result of his sorcerery. I always found this very interesting. And we had that discussion way back in the 90's. So, of course the title of this video immediately caught my attention, as I have never heard anyone else bring this up...
If that were all true it would make the scripture wrong where the pharisee said that he had a demonic spirit and Jesus called them out and told them they blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Jesus really WOULD have had an evil spirit.
If Jesus was just a magician then all of our faith is in vain, there is no hope of salvation, we are all doomed.
@@michaelszczys8316he did let Solomon use a magic ring to summon and control demons. That's a fact.
@@WestSideBarson where is that?
I would like to see.
@@michaelszczys8316 The Testament of Solomon.
@@michaelszczys8316a.k.a Seal of Solomon. Give the Jewish Babylonian Talmud a reading too, more specifically Tractate Gittin 68: Demons and the Temple. Very interesting read, mentions the ring.
As a Persian familiar with Zoroastrianism, I always thought that Jesus was probably a Magi similar to Zoroaster; that is why the three wise men predicted his birth. Magi in Persia were actually people with knowledge in philosophy and science as well as metaphysic and not sorcerers. Sorcery is forbidden in Zoroastrianism.
Salam khoobin?
So what’s the definition of sorcery in Zoroastrianism, and the bible for that matter?
@@strangerinastrangeland6865look it up bud
@@strangerinastrangeland6865 Black magic
@@ShahanshahShahin yeah but actually is sorcery, it’s forbidden in the bible, so there has to be a definition for what it is, and like the commenter said forbidden in Zoroastrianism,
Like is it just lying and deceiving and putting on a show to convince people you have power?
Or is it a practice that actually has results?
I wish we'd had more youtube channels like this back when I was a student of history and religious studies! Also, really enjoyed the Star Wars clips, might not be a student anymore, but always a nerd.
Jesus is alpha but Star Wars is soy af
describing things as 'alpha' and 'soy' is 'soy af', to use fragile masculinity terms.
@@mayamayhemmusicagree😂
I would like to make a distinction regarding Gandalf's in-universe characterization. The word wizard is a translation of the elven word istari which are a group of imortal beings sent to help the men against Sauron. So he is more like an angel and not a mere human wizard. Tolkien makes this distinction between good forces who want to heal and protect and malevolent forces who want to opress.
To add, wizard etymologically just means 'wise one' yet wisdom can cover all knowledge and the use of it
is-star-i (?)
yes, [I] is [R]eal
refer to: pinned post comment section:
my post was prior to watching cause:
I understand you! lol ✌
in-inter: net!
Yes if I remember correctly he's a spirit of good who can appear how he wants but prefers that form.
Like the other wizards.
try cs lewis
Jeezuz, you know you're quoting fiction to debate fiction.
I’m recalling that the only miracles that Jewish and Greco-Roman critics of early Christianity actually disputed the entire occurrence of were the virgin birth and the resurrection. All those supernatural occurrences attributed to Jesus in between those events were culturally normative for that time and place, the only question was how it was done (see the Beelzebul accusation) not that they happened. If Jesus walked the land performing healings and exorcisms as described in the Gospels the only thing shocking and note worthy about it was him not charging people.
Jesus had to use material components like most spell casters, but as a Divine Soul sorcerer, he also had access to metamagics that could allow him to cast without components, or perhaps at a range beyond the normal range of the spells, assuming of course he had either the sorcery points available or the spells slots available to convert TO sorcery points.
Or you know , he’s God and decides to use his creation in order to enact his miracles
@@anchorthesun3438 /facepalm
Well I would like to see a video from RFB about religion in DnD.
Magic isnt real
“The Church has no reason to seek out or persecute any witches because their powers do not exist” - St Augustine
Just to comment on the first example of using mud as a means of healing, you would hear the argument from some Christians that it is reflective of a pattern of God to use physical means for spiritual benefit (ex: water used in regeneration in baptism, or bread and wine in the Eucharist).
There’s also something to be said for the combination of spit/water from the Pool of Siloam (symbolizing physical and spiritual cleansing) and dirt (calling back to Adam being made from dust) being used to restore a man’s body.
Excellent work! Ona side Note: Magos and mageia have positive connotation in some contexts. For example Apuleius of Madaura in his apology, frames mageia as the sacred religion of persian priests, making the distinction with goeteia ( in the interes of refuse an accusation of magic), and in some Magical Papyri, like PGM IV the ritual specialist calls himself magician, and the rite magic, framing the concept as a form of mysteric and ancient religious knowledge.
Feels like it could have a good and bad connotation or attitude towards the word. Same as it has today in some instances... interesting.
I love it, just one correction, the Magi were not Persian, they were very African. The tale of the three wise men being from India and Persia is an Armenian retelling of the story.
@@Traewing Source? The Gospels don't specifically say that the wise men came from Persia-or even that there were three of them-but it does call them “magi from the East”.
@@MADMACHlNEand considering the Zoroastrian origin of the term and the Greek trope of eastern miracle-workers it's safe to assumed they were implied to be Persian if anything
you come to the same exact conclusion one of my friends is arguing in her thesis and you cite her thesis advisor, who was also one of my profs in undergrad! stumbling upon this video is so so cool
thats actually awesome
I love your videos! This is exactly what I want from religious studies, and what I never got back when I was in school and university: scholarly, nuanced, unbiased, contextualized analysis.
Explain more pls
@@JESUS_Saves3747 oooo
Ooooo
Pp
O
There is no such thing as unbiased history.
Knowing that this is one of your areas of personal interest, I've been looking forward to more expansion on this topic. Thank-you for opening my eyes to the fact that religion can be analyzed without all the extra fluff and moralizing.
Of course religion can be analyzed lol
@@PickmeshaJones My point is that very few people can do it from an objective, rational stand-point. Most people that talk about a religion are doing so because they're trying to sell you an idea. Religion for Breakfast does it to provide an accurate summary of what we factually know about them.
@J Lund A connecting principle
, linked to the invisible? Almost imperceptible? Something inexpressible! Science insusceptible, logic so inflexible.
But acausally connectible.
@@JakobNoone Is that a line from Mary Poppins?
@@coryfehr1070 'Synchronicity' by The Police. :)
I really appreciate how carefully you define terms. Helps to understand the journey of your research, and avoid undue offense. Obviously important for theological discussions.
Also, you've got a really nice moustache
You know of all the channels on RUclips about religion I really like yours the best, a lot of others seem to have bias, some a lot more than others towards subjects. You have never shown me even a hint of that. I also enjoy Esoterica. Thank you, Keep doing this brother bear, I will keep watching.
As an undergrad, I took a class called "Magic and Medicine in the Ancient World." At the same time, I was delving into the world of medical anthropology. I was rather intrigued (and intellectually delighted) to find that there was a tremendous amount of overlap. Naturally, my interests in bioarchaeology implied, invariably, a fascination with medicinal traditions through time and space, including (but not limited to) the etiological and ontological elements of illness, disease, and well-being. It is important to remember, however, that similar "magics" are practiced today; likely influenced by preexisting, longstanding ethnomedical traditions. As such, I feel it is especially important to understand, holistically, the contexts in which many of these traditions arose, persist, and continue to evolve.
You're words are too big and your sentences hurt my brain
People forget that the line between "folk medicine", magic, and allopathic medicine is not set in stone. They change over time. Aggressive scepticism towards "alternative" treatments is misguided and often a cover for dismissing Indigenous medicine. Not to rehash a different video, but the example of "meditation" is pretty instructive - first it was disbelieved and appropriated for aesthetics, but now that it's been stripped of it's Asian cultural context, it's been accepted into allopathic medicines.
@@theMoporter Evidence based medicine doesn't really care about where an idea originated. There are many drugs where the compound was isolated from a source that was looked into because it was used in traditional herbalism. artemisinin quinine willow ephedra poppy are just a few plants that have drugs made from them that were once used in herbal medicine. Most plants that have medicinal properties also have chemicals in them that cause bad side effects and depending on how they were grown and the specific plant will have wildly different amounts of active ingredients, so it makes sense to figure out what the chemical in the plant that is the active ingredient so you can have fewer side effects and be more sure of the dose you are actually getting.
There were variolation ceremonies for smallpox in India, and when a safer method of protection from smallpox arrived - vaccination - sometimes ceremonial practices were observed in some regions so that people wouldn't feel they were losing their traditions when changing to a safer medical procedure.
All of the contexts and traditions of any medical practice aren't actually part of what makes anything work, they are just acting as a placebo. If you want to do all that ok, go ahead, but there is no reason to do that from a medical perspective.
I sometimes wonder if we should invent a new ceremony for vaccination that appeals to the people who like the aesthetics of the cultures that are antivax, New-Age or Chistian or any other group that is antivax. There is almost nothing that is more similar to homeopathy than vaccination, a tiny tiny amount of a harmful thing is put into your body that boosts your bodies natural immune system is ironically so in line with it. If we dressed it up as a ceremony maybe some people would get a vaccine that wouldn't otherwise.
Tidbit... Did you know "Jesus" is suffering from a toothache in the entire bible. If you notice, he is the light and the path... The word and Son of God. An open mouth gets fed!(Light and the way)...Cleansings is close to Godliness(The Son Of God). If you go backwards, you'll see that "God"; a father before Jesus, does not seem to know the importance of washing out the mouth after eating.. but The Child learns to do so.
In those days tooth decay and cavities were a great problem..and the solution was worst. So Jesus spoke and all was good... For he had the "Good" word and he was "Pure".
Another: did you know ;medically, a person's diet is what makes the difference in us ALL. Calcium and protein usually means your northern and are Anglo-Saxon....high sugar (starch and unrefined sugars) means your closer to the equator... Even down to having Tea or Coffee affects your entire flora/fauna and in turn you are as unique as an ecosystem and require special attention within your ecosystem.. meaning , You Could Be Your Own Medicine!
@Buddy "...these things will be back..."
Nope, spirituality has always played second fiddle to materialism. Been that way since Ugh, the cave man, knapped the first handheld chopper from a flint cobble. Humans seek to materially alter the world around them for practical and mundane reasons.
Drawing pictures on walls deep in caves was, at best, a sideline activity
There's a bit from Dan Carlin's series on Persia that speaks to this blurred line a lot, where he says the Babylonians are so fascinating because they're meticulously scientific about things like astrology and sorcery, like if one of the tools in the physicist toolbox was a ouija board.
Things that today we define as "magic" were, at the time, just The Way The World Worked. You went to someone wise, told them your problem, and they prescribed you an anti-demon talisman, cause you sounded super cursed.
Sometimes it was more medicinal, sometimes it was more religious, sometimes it was political science by way of star charts. Magic is just technology that wound up not actually working.
Thanks to the placebo effect, I'm sure it did help in a lot of cases!
Alchemy also advanced science greatly as repeatability, note taking and method analysis were valued.
They basically went with the old system of writing stuff down. And the same mix of history and mythology also is common in old literature. There wasn't much difference between Gigamesh, who was two thirds god, riding to the edge of the world to find immortality and Paris fighting at Troy for the most beautiful woman on earth or the Imperium Romanum doing a census in the client state of Judea. But not all of these stories have equal amounts of history.
Because modern science works so well right? Gotta tow the line, the consensus, the cancelling of common sense in lieu of political correctness. Remember, there are 52+ genders, men can become women, IQ is racist, and the COVID vaxx is safe and effective.
This was so thorough! I loved it. I felt like I was in class again. I love coming to this channel and always learning something I didn’t know before.
Thanks! Thanks to you I’m currently reading the book “Jesus the magician”. Your content is amazing.
As a Greek, I enjoyed the use of greek words and the explanation of their meaning. And, oddly enough, I learned some new things.
Thank you for that.
@Isolated Pixels where did it go? I didn't feel moving...
I know it is claimed that ancient and modern Greek are remarkably by similar for the number of centuries that have passed. But surely ancient vocabulary and pronunciation are exactly what a modern Greek speaker would expect to find more challenging about the ancient language.
@@IDreamOfLogic oh dear. This person doesn't realize modern Greece exists. Actually, you could argue that the modern nation state of Greece is the first time Greece appeared in the world, since anfient Greece was not one political entity but several.
Is it odd for you to learn ?
You must be a genius
Share your knowledge
@@joeschmoe24-7 you are mean for no reason. Does it make you feel good?
It was odd that I learned something about the language I speak since birth. I did not expect that, on a channel about religions.
Love your channel, as well as Esoterica! Yall are among the best content creators! True Academic Scholars!
There was an interesting pen and paper rpg I played years ago that portrayed Magic as a reality defying effort that could drive the mage insane, especially if others witnessed the magic. However, a particularly pious mage could take a feat that let them perform a finite number of "miracles" allowing them to perform magic without risking their sanity. Other than that, there was very little difference between the two.
Mage: The Awakening
I came here thinking this video was gonna sound like every Sunday school class and sermon I went to as a kid where they tell you you’re not allowed to even think that God is magic. But you are actually taking apart all the terms and types and giving a very detailed coverage of what and whatnot might be qualified as magic or good magic or black magic. Truly intrigued by this video.
Adoro estos vídeos y al canal en general. Gracias por traernos tan interesantes investigaciones.
What I expected: “Did Jesus actually perform miracles or was he a charlatan?”
What I got: “What D&D class was he?”
(No offense intended, it was informative regardless)
A Cleric dude. 😉 With Thaumaturgy, healing touch, remove curse etc.
What if his background was charlatan...rather than the usual acolyte?
If jesus was fake. The blind man would have told everyone. If Jesus didnt walk on water, he wouldn't have 2 billion followers. To think he stays up at night setting up magic tricks for the next day just to die in the end is illogical. Besides, they couldn't bring any charges against him during trial and surely being a charlatan was not one of them....
@@shannadaul6438nah, his background was guild artisan, he was a carpenter after all.
@@Sharkakaka The guy was multiclassing...
Wow! Thank you for posting this. Not only entertaining, you’ve expanded my knowledge of Jesus and given me much to think about.
I love archeology and anthropology so this was right up my alley even though I'm not religious. Thanks!
This is such an interesting discussion, thank you for this video! I (a Christian) was recently discussing with a friend (former Christian, current witchcraft/divination practitioner in the Norse neo-pagan stream) about the blurry line between “witchcraft” & religious practice in the Bible.
You can find examples curses, ritual objects, & sanctioned forms of divination (Urim & Thumim, casting lots, etc.) in the Bible alongside prohibitions against practicing magic/fortune telling. It’s very interesting!
As far as freelance ritual experts…also very interesting! In the book of Acts Paul (& I think Peter) are said to have performed a few healings/miracles in the style of Jesus. All three of them make a big deal of offering their services for free (according to the New Testament), which I guess may have been a difference from other ritual experts who made their livings from their work?
Check out Darren Brown’s channel for a contemporary practitioner.
What people dont realize is God gambles with humans and their lives as well as their futures. Including forcefully attempting against people for his own reasons. Illusion is a choice but so is freewill.
Most humans still place meaning on random occurrences and create reasons or things to explain the unknown.
The great thing about faith is that anything is true if you believe it.
I have to go home and feed my unicorn now if you’ll excuse me.
Propably the most interesting video I 've seen recently! This moral dimension of wonders is very helpful when you think about the way people understand reality. Thank you very much for this great video
my 2 favorite youtube channels in the realm of religion have finally joined forces. thanks guys.
What's the other channel?
@@curiodyssey3867 esoterica
Dissertation in every video. Incredible work!
A dissertation would be a series of several four hour long academic lectures. This is pop history, trivia for civilians.
@@decem_sagittae thanks for your pedantry. your self-congratulatory efforts to shame a bit of hyperbolic gratitude within a stranger’s RUclips comment will help elevate us “civilians” to your intellectual level, I’m sure
As for myself, I can say that I grew up with the idea of Jesus as a teacher and grew up around books and teachers in my life. Funny how that builds the relationship with the way we experience life.
Interesting stuff - I’ve always found it fascinating that sorcery was seen as a real opposition to the early church, especially in Acts with the stories of Simon Magus and Elymas. Do you know if there is any indication that the ‘Holy Spirit’ as conferred in Acts 8:19 was a known power to sorcerers/magicians of that time and place, or could this passage be an indication that early Christian authors wanted to show the superiority of the Holy Spirit/Miracles in Jesus’ name (greater authority or prestige) compared to those of other magicians? Thanks for the great videos!
For those that want real Bible Godly witchcraft read Leviticus 14:48-53
Anti- Mold Potion: You'll need 2 birds, fresh water, a knife, mint, herbs, red string and something to splatter bird blood with.
My 1.25 cent for OP Qs based on lots of stuff- Ancient Israel was always in competition with other gods since Genesis. Eg the light on fire tree branches drenched in water competition.
N.T. authors may have modernised it to fit with Greek trends just as OT did with the surrounding cultures. They are just a small nation amongst empire sized ones. culture works from greater to the smaller, not the other way around, as in the Bible.
Psychologically, ancient Israel writers possibly over exaggerate and compensate, expressing themselves to a fantasy of escapism and guidance. Which nearly all ancient writers do. Earth was a fantasy world to them. Mystery and wonder. As such so too are their stories.
It's a miracle if it's your religion. It's magic if it's someone else's
@@CleverNameTBD Right?
The jewish mystics / priests seem to have suffered from criticism and inferiority complexes for a long time, compare Moses and Aaron competing with the egyptian priests and magicians or ... i forgot which prophet it was that had the "miracle off" with the wet altar but the scene is pretty unforgettable.
This concept adds so much color to a verse that I always found suspicious: "And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." - Matthew 13:58
Learning about the contemporary connotations of the word magus kinda makes the whole Simon Magus story read pretty differently. Like, it's not just that he thought he could buy the power of God, but that it's specifically the author wanting to distinguish that what the Apostles (and by implication Jesus himself) were doing was emphatically NOT mageia.
Except it was. Moses too fought the Magic of Egyptian Priests with his own Magic granted by God.
I found the idea that these "magic" objects were produced by religious figures interesting.
In Italian folktales, when the role typical of a fairy is played by a male figure, he usually gets called either a "wizard"/"magician" (mago) or a "monk"/"hermit" (monaco/eremita)
Great video! I actually had a similar debate a few weeks ago. I loved hearing your well thought out examination - wish I could have pointed the others towards it while we were still discussing it :)
Was wondering what the tone of this video may be and was bracing myself for cringey over simplification of history and someone trying to cope with their repressed religious trauma. Was pleasently surprised to find an articulate and fair exploration of the sources and history. Thank you!
Haha, I get that a lot. The secular study of religion is so rare on YT, that people are surprised when they stumble upon videos from that perspective.
you must be new here lol
This channel is legit bro
My family and I have been enjoying this channel a lot. Growing up in a religion but never really learning its history is strange and tragic. That's our family though.
“religious trauma” is itself a cope
This is really wonderful. So grateful ! Clear and focused !
Makes sense. My Grandaddy used to fool the masses like a shaman with simple mechanical tricks. I imagine it was much easier to do that in the preindustrial ages.
Mere fact that now we have more advanced technology does not mean that people are more wise. I don't think it is more difficult to fool people than it was 2000 years ago...
Yeah, I saw that episode of Family Guy.
🤡
His most complicated trick to perform was the reviving, since he revived and still had some of his wounds and his followers touched his wounds to believe
Could u image how easy it was to manipulate people then esp if u had a lot of time to think and come up with things. Or how many times these story have been rewritten. Almost impossible to know the real truth of those times.
@blakejamesiam1410 the bible today is if I can remember 99.3% the same as the 2000 year old ones but then again their are words in Hebrew that can't be translated into English properly
Amazing video! Love learning about all of these scholars and their work.
In my Social Psychology class the teacher was also an amateur magician. In one of the classes he said he was going to do some tricks and some readings, emphasizing that these were all tricks. After some readings two of the people in my class said that they did not want to see this anymore because it was demonic. This is a college class and the teacher made it known these were simply tricks. If some of these people responded that way what would people without the combined knowledge that is our present world have made of someone who managed to learn some simple reading and distraction tricks. I still think one of the best examples of the magic ability of Jesus is in the clip of Family Guy, Jesus magic tricks.
Just because someone says its a simple trick doesnt mean it doesnt have demonic familiar spirits behind it or them. Not saying he used them knowingly or unknowingly but demonic forces have been used behind a majority of majic. And secondly Jesus was not Jesus so by name only to it as a magician is negated right there. Secondly... not sure which one but a magician came to purchase and learn the miracles inwhich was denied. Secondly Yeshua aka Jesus never went away from Torah inwhich called magic evil and a sin... so this guys analogy is far from the truth.
@@semperfi-1918 Lol @ the torah calling magic a sin. Ever heard of the cabbala?
@@theodorejenkins6066 cabala is not based on Torah but other writtings. Should do some homework on it. Show me where Torah says its ok to do magic?
@@theodorejenkins6066 Deuteronomy 18:9-12
"When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."
@@theodorejenkins6066 Kabbala appeared in the 12th century, and it is completely heretical to Judaism and Christianity. It belongs to a few sects, and (not suprisingly) popular in Hollywood.
I just found ur channel after watching your interview with Alex O'Connor. I am enjoying your videos. I like your unbiased approach so far.
You mentioned historical references to Jewish exorcists. There is a reference in Acts about this:
Acts 19:13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
The area I would like to have seen you pin down more precisely was the literary role of Simon Magus in Acts of the Apostles. Simon clearly interpreted the power of the Holy Spirit as a supernatural power that could be ritually imparted onto him through the laying on of hands and that would supplement his own suite of ritual abilities. The curse that he is given for offering money for the Holy Spirit seems to be a literary opportunity for the author of Acts to rebuke any readers who might hold this position. This seems to fall in line with the burning of magical texts in Greece and in the exorcism of the spirit of divination that we see in Acts.
As someone who grew up in a Pentecostal church, believing in & even witnessing the ritual of exorcism & wonder workings, this research means so much to me. Thank you for helping me understand my own humanity.
Woah you really witnessed an exorcism?
Mental health is amazing, isn't it?
what witnessed was the traumatizing and probably torture of another person.
the world is a worse place because of those toxic delusions.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 fr
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 you need a exorcism session too?
Something I have always thought he might of existed, people witnessed sight if hand tricks were amazed and chinese wispers do the rest and a story is created that has been changed and adapted over hundreds of years by people who could read and write and took advantage of people who could not.
The Harry Potter example @17:55 isn't a good one in the sense that it's a misunderstanding of Harry Potter and the universe he lives in. A Jedi would have been a better example (i.e. being force sensitive is biological, but being a Jedi is a generally positively regarded occupation).
Being a wizard in Harry Potter isn't an occupation, it's biological. Wizards are a species in Harry Potter that are positive to us, the audience, because we see the wizarding world through the lense of Harry Potter and his allies. But to say wizards in Harry Potter are positively regarded by the general populace inside that universe is absolutely not the case. Wizards were forced into hiding because of genocidal persecution, and it's highly likely that - especially after Voldemort and Grindelwald went a bit crazy - the average person in their universe would react in a violent manner towards wizards out of fear. Love the video and content, but bad comparison!
One thing most people don't realize it only takes around 10 years to walk from Great Britain to East China.
10 Years from Northern Europe to South Africa.
Give or take 20-50 for mountain, travel stops, etc.
When you think of it like this... A lot of theories (Out of Africa theory)
becomes more speculative than fact; for example, in Jesus life he could of traveled from Egypt to anywhere in the Middle East safely with in his life span.
---
Assuming frequent breaks it quite literally only take the average person one month to walk to Egypt at a very casual pace from Jerusalem.
Assuming Frequent Breaks, it'll take around 3-6 months to walk from Great Britain to China.
Assuming Frequent Breaks, and you can walk on water. 6 Month to a year getting from China to the US.
there were also an ancient examples of turning water into wine, where you had a pottery container with two sections up to the spout, so you could cover one side and pour water, or the other side to provide wine to the VIP.
the assassin's pot.
😂
So you want to be an assassin! Are you ready for a distant shore. Hey there's no going back...
@@joe18750 too bad the assassins pot originated from China dating back to the Ming dynasty. Nowhere to be found anywhere near where Jesus roamed
@@jclive2860 good grief, you've tripped over yourself to make an embarrassingly irrelevant point. read what N Boyle posted. that's what I responded too. no mention of China or Jesus. go back to Tic-Toc. Adults are talking here.
The study of historical curses (or protection from them) is fascinating when viewed through the lens of mental health. If you irrationally feel like you're always being watched, you might describe an "evil eye" that's been cast on you.
True
"You are a wizard, Jesus!" - Hagrid, probably.
I found the section on exorcism particularly interesting. A few weeks ago a friend and his sister were both "possessed" in front of many of their family. Whatever my own thoughts about this event, to the "victims" and their family, a "demon" took possession of first the sister, then passed on to my friend.
The description of exorcism in Jewish and Christian religions is almost the same as for Muslims. Eventually the family found a maulana who was willing to carry out the exorcism, others saying that the demon was too powerful for them. Special prayers and rituals were carried out, and the "demon" was driven out and ordered not to harm humans again.
At least one member of the family considered this to be "magical mumbo-jumbo" in a negative way. When I discussed the event with my friend, after his recovery, I asked him if the exorcism was magical, and he said that it definitely was. I then asked if that meant that the maulana was a magician, and his response was less confident. Magician has a negative connotation to my friend, and he was unwilling to attach the label to the maulana.
Perhaps this was a similar conflict two thousand years ago. All were willing to accept that magic had occurred, but only critics would be willing to take the next step of stating that Jesus was a magician. His supporters perhaps thought he was, but, because of the negativity of the word, they could not bring themselves to say that he was a magician. Failure to give the title does not mean that most, including even disciples, did not consider Jesus to be a magician, just as my friend would not "insult" the maulana who had "saved" him.
I know that there were pagan critics that called out that Jesus was working _magic_ , I don't remember how that was supposed to go, if he was commanding evil spirits/demons (Luke addresses this criticism) or by some other way.
The point is that those pagans at least pretty often didn't deny that Jesus made "miracles", what they argued was that those "miracles" came from the creator god. And of course they did, if they didn't they would basically be Christians.
Although I remember perfectly well that Porphyry called out the accuracy of the accounts by the fact that in Mark they called the lake of Galilee a " stormy sea" while it's just a lake.
I haven't read that much, but I wonder if that lead him to believe that maybe Jesus didn't make any magic at all.
Reply to me so I can find this comment later please.
@@didack1419 I didn't think of the "stormy sea" in relation to the lake until you brought it up. To me there's so much symbolic, esoteric language in the Bible where I first believe something to be analogous before I take it to be literal. You now also have a reply lol
@@stylicho thanks
Yeah, I know it's meant to have deeper meaning, I've read that some consider it a representation of God calming the waters of Chaos and stuff. Of course a pagan wouldn't get it, and to be fair, at the end it's gonna be misleading, and people can notice it.
@@didack1419 If Jesus commands demons out of people and speaks to demons that no one but Solomon, How is Jesus not a magician? Christians are just hypocrites that say whatever they do is correct and the rest of the world is wrong. It’s pretty odd when you look at Christianity for what it is and not what it’s believers tell you.
You are an educational gem, well done sir, keep up the great work.
As a witch, I don't recommend cursing someone over a stolen hoodie.
Do you mean swearing or magically cursiing?
I never came across your channel before, surprisingly. The video about the Good Samaritan parable just popped on my feed earlier today and this is the second video of yours I’m watching. The amount of information and knowledge condensed here is impressive, absolutely worth of praise. And you are non-partisan to a fault 😆.
Been a while since I last came upon quality content like this! I’ll probably binge through all your videos in the next few days, heh.
When I hear magician, I think of the modern version of a magician and I believe it applies to ancient people just fine. Though their role is different now, their methods have only refined.
I think the difference is that many more people probably believed in magic. But there really is no difference between faith healers in megachurches and penn and teller, except that penn and teller aren't scamming and lying to people.
So someone who was born blind was only given the illusion of sight? Or he was faking it for twenty-some years, because being a blind beggar on the street is so awesome? There were ancient magicians who did the same kind of tricks modern ones do. Miracle-workers aren’t illusionists. Either someone is healed or they aren’t. None of the acts in the Gospels are illusions or parlour tricks. I’m not saying they necessarily happened, but they weren’t modern magic tricks. It was either fakery, the placebo effect, or real. The fakery aspect would be fairly easy to disprove back in the day, but could have happened. The placebo effect wouldn’t work on most of the miracles recorded.
@@katherinegilks3880 They are called plants. That is when the supposed 'random participant' is actually in on the magic trick.
We are also seeing these magic tricks through the lens of thousands of years of worship. Imagine someone like Chris Angel 3000 years ago. I'm just free spinning now, but I mean imagine any decent magician from now, but back in Biblical time, getting any amount of financial backing. They would be Gods yo. Just speculating and stuff off the ideas here. Idk how I feel about that fr lol.
The old magic is still unknown. Maybe future science will find new physics phenomenon like quantum mechanics. Accessing the fourth dimension would be powerful. Almost like time traveling or making atoms change structures.
@@gabrielserrano5054 Just saying something that doesn't exist is unknown, doesn't make it exist my guy. Science that is indistinguishable from magic absolutely could exist in the future or maybe even on other planets somewhere, but that isn't magic and the ancients definitely didn't have it...
Great video! It’s hard to disagree that Smith makes some fairly speculative jumps, and I found your argument about his application of the nomenclature of ancient magical practitioners fairly convincing, but the argument about his use of the magical papyri may not be as solid. Smith isn’t alone in using these papyri to drawn conclusions about eastern Mediterranean magic in earlier centuries. Christopher Faraone also does so, and he shows how Greek and Roman literary texts from the archaic, classical and Hellenistic periods reveal striking parallels with the much later magical papyri. I think Smith deserves more credit than he gets these days, espcially given that he was working with the magical papyri before there was an accessible English translation.
That is the one part I actually disagree most about. Academic jargon is often slightly removed from daily usage. And even the word in use today can mean so many different things. I am just thinking of the way that modern preforming magicians have such a diverse array of thought as to what the word should mean, even inside their niche. For instance Penn of Penn and Teller does not like "magic" that makes an audience thing that anything super-natural occurred.
The blurring of the difference between religious blessings and magician spells remind me of how in Demons Souls it's revealed that Magic and Miracles aren't separate things but come from the same source.
Love listening to your videos. So informative
So THAT'S why the Tremere's signature discipline is Thaumaturgy lol.
In all honesty, amazing video. Extremely interesting and very well researched and written. Thanks.
I was not expecting a vampire the masquerade fan
I grew up Mormon and you see the same thing with Joseph Smith. He used New England folklore to elevate himself above other people claiming visions at that time. His "seership" was no different than soothsaying and it was also how he translated the BOM. But after he died, people began to instantly rid the church history of these supernatural aspects, instead making people think that he just sat down and read from golden plates to translate the BOM, when in reality he had a rock in a hat, which was superstitious magic-work. It's much more realistic imo to think Jesus was the same. Joseph Smith grew up in a hyper religious time at the tail end of the protestant movement in America, where dozens of people were claiming to be prophets, whereas Jesus was growing up in a time of exorcists and magicians
Joseph Smith was chosen by Jesus - best friends. Sometimes they talked weekly, Jesus giving needed instructions. Except for that time in Missouri when the all-knowing Jesus knew his friend was going to be shot dead ! Or the mis-management of the Ohio Bank, or the whole issue of Polygamy not being accepted.
@@TIMEtoRIDE900 dum dum dum dum
@@myth6142 you are 🎵 smart smart smart smart smart.🎵
Ridiculous.
Interesting but Jesus Christ is much more than that
Something interesting I've noticed in Celtic and other British tales is that magic use can be good or bad, but basically anyone trying to use magic of their own accord is a bad guy. Good magic tends towards non-consensual blessing, or a favour from a non-human who stumbles on the protagonist while they're in a pickle. We don't have original versions of most of these stories, only Christianised ones, so I have to wonder if that changed anything.
I'm just saying, it would make sense of the number of talking animals distributing gold/jewel/mountain-filled fruit to distressed royal children.
That seems consistent even with the stories that seem to have survived their Christianizing, like with the fae. Someone who tries to use magic on their own is exercising hubris, while good magic seems to match up with other religious beliefs of the time - that blessings are given for a righteous life, but cannot be demanded.
I really enjoy watching your videos, because they are so well structured and descriptive. Thank you for your work!
Sir- your well produced and informative presentations are the best on RUclips. You never act as if you had a dog in the fight- only using the discipline of of historical textual criticism to flesh out a well crafted argument. I await your next presentation- Rich
Tolkien made reference the point that the terms used to describe rituals have strong cultural ties and are not neutral in their meaning. One character had from an early age, a desire for the tales concerning elves and their 'magic' but an elf describes their confusion at the characters desire, as the term magic is used in universe with a negative connotation, whereas the elves mystical capabilities as 'craft' or 'ritual' or even as 'art'...
Interesting, I thought the discussion would go another way : to me a magician is someone who uses tricks to do what appears impossible (changing water in wine, walking on water, multiplication of bread...) and "fooling" the audience. Some people believe Jesus was like that.
This seems to focus on if he was a mage. Clickbait, imo..
This is one of your most interesting videos, it's a shame you don't have many videos about magic on your channel, greetings!!
They absolutely have videos 'about magic' in that they point out how they are all stories created by people who either didn't understand the world or were actively trying to convince you of something.
My favorite Freelance Ritual Specialist in the Bible is Balaam. Just a wizard and his donkey tryin' to get paid and being denied.
It's simply the Power of God as Jesus states. Everytime.
I like how, when you mentioned Jedi, you pictured Obi Wan above everyone else. Because he had the high ground.
And not because he looks the most similar to the classic depictions of Jesus?
You and esoterica help me study these perspectives for my animistic standing. Today, in ceremony, I found the call to return to Jesus for wisdom and to look at him as a magician. Or maybe better to say, a Master.
Sulis: '....Really?'
Devotee: 'It was a _really_ nice cloak!'
When I was in vacation bible school as a youngster, there was a church who used a circus as a theme. Each day, a new character was revealed, the Strongman, the Lion Tamer, etc, and each character was an excuse to tell the story of a bible character. On Thursday of that week, they revealed Jesus as a character, and I blurted out that Jesus was The Magician. I remember this in detail because the hours long berating I received was imprinted into me.
Apparently Jesus was "The Rock" and calling Jesus a magician was heretical.
I think the title of "The Rock" for a biblical figure should definitely go to Simon Peter.
Mmm, I feel like this is a very stupid question but, does "rock" mean anything else than a rock? Because what's the point of mentioning a rock as a character? (I've never gone to a circus) :|
Why is that remarkable "the rock" compare to anything else? I guess Jesus can't be anthropomorphisized by a human character?
@@didack1419 Their point was that Jesus was the foundation, the fulcrum of our lives.
Again, it was vacation bible school. They're not trying to be theologically sound.
@@DavidJamesHenry Yeah, haha, I understand that is an explanation for kids but how remarkable can the rock be on a circus. It sounds so cheap
@@davidhildebrandt7812 What? The guy whose name is literally just "rock but male"? Noooooooo.
I was actually expecting a discussion as to whether Jesus employed sleight of hand or other chicanery to make it seem like he performed miracles. What it was instead was still interesting.
They're called *ILLUSIANS,* Michael!
But seriously, same. I feel like this question didn't need an answer, because of course he was a "magician." He used magic to make things happen just like in every other folk tale, only they claimed in this particular case that his magic was given to him by their god.
Celsus argument seems very similar to the argument Pharisees made against Jesus, where they essentially accused Jesus of casting out demons with the power of demons. His response is basically that a house divided against itself cannot stand, and something about blasphemy against the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin.
It's little wonder why Celsus's work never survived.
Sympathetic magic, all of his miracles follow an act of faith by someone who needs or is in connection by someone in need. The objects/rituals that people put their faith in, grounds their faith and it acts as type of medium where there faith is transmuted into the thing they are being faithful for. There is faith that the healing can happen, Jesus answers that faith with it getting done.
Whenever he is asked to prove himself as a divine being by doing an act of “magic” or miracle he does not do it because there is no faith to Activate the spiritual energy he fosters because they did not initially believe who he said he was.
I would say that Jesus as a magician doesn’t encapsulate the transitionary aspect , faith + thaumaturgy, fully. The gospels stance that anyone can access these thaumaturgies through their faith and belief in Jesus as the mediator between God and Man, while being both himself, is one of the main points of the gospels.
Well he's not a genie. And we don't even see these miracles today and he wouldn't show himself by performing miracles because he's a coward that hides
10:16 This is interesting. In Spanish we call a "magician" a "mago" (plural "magos"), and the word is more associated with performers.
This video is implying in English Jesus was just a famous magician who used his skills to get a cult started around him.
I just heard this whole topic on the Magi on the radio 2 days ago. I wanted to hear more on it. I didn't even go searching and I just found it, with the title of video being something I would not have looked for. I'm a believer, regardless! Great work, Thank You !
Dont be afraid of asking questions, stranger. It helps critical thought immensely. Just question stuff more.
I wished I knew some of those rituals so I could heal myself because prayers don't work. Great video Glad I found your channel😊
Performs magic tricks in 33AD: “Messiah! Praise him!”
Performs magic tricks in 17th century: “Witch! Burn him!”
Dude, they crucified him.
@@wungabunga because they thought he would start an insurrection, not because of magic tricks
@@CliffCardi it was kinda both. some called him a devil worshiper servant, which is kinda what a witch is, or something like that.
@@jonathacirilo5745 well Jews hated him because he preformed miracles on the Sabbath
@@CliffCardi some jews. and yeah, among other things.
The accusation that Jesus received exotic training in Egypt by Celsus that Origin denies means that there is more to the miracle/magic distinction than the moral category. Egypt is a real place. So if Jesus received any training in Thaumaturgy in Egypt is not a moral question, but an historical question. So what makes someone a magician as opposed to a miracle worker in the context of 2nd century greco-Roman culture has to do with how one acquired their thaumaturgical arts in an empirical sense, not merely a moral sense.
As a Christian who just rewatched both Fullmetal Alchemists:
I approve of this pagan video.
FMA brotherhood is great.
*These 9 years ago profile names have got to go!*
Based on the thumbnail alone all I could think of is “is this your card my child”
10/10 video, thank you.
For more on the history of magic from anthropological, social and cultural perspectives I recommend the book
The history of Magic: From Alchemy to Witchcraft, from the Ice Age to the Present' by Chris Gosden
You obviously have spent significant amount of your time thinking about mind and religions, and are trained academically too. Compared to other youtubers of the topics, this is so very different to watch and much less painful as you often address the key points in context, like how you talked about the inner reality of exorcism acts.
There is never one side to ritual (or any act), even if that man thinks he is conning everyone and that's it, in reality him and the people that surround him are driven by something common and deeper. And this holds value to discuss and observe. Not a lot of people realize such duality in social acts and human character.
Thanks for the content, it is like finding a doctor you can finally trust (it is hard where i live, lol)
I don't think you left out any details. Fascinating. 😊
At the end of the story, thinking of the number of magic practitioners and some conmen at the time 😆 my mind always goes back to Monty Python's Life of Brian.