“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,” 2 Thessalonians 2:3
@Jake Smith u can stay, I'm going up when he calls, I won't be destroyed like half the planet. Remember it's to test those who dwell upon the earth! The bride doesn't need to be destroyed. Christ took it all. Good day young man.
@Jake Smith What that verse mean in context is that when your born again and recieve the Holy Spirit, you don't go right to heaven immediately. The purpose of course is because then no one would be left to share the Gospel. Our home is with God. Jesus is preparing a place for us and we will go where he is like he promised. The wrath is for the world not the church.
Maybe I missed it but I guess I still don't understand what the foundation of believing in a pre-tribulation rapture is. I'm looking for hard biblical evidence to explain the theory. I agree with believing exactly what the Bible says just like you do, but if someone wants to convince me that the pre-tribulation rapture is true, then for me the main thing they have to address is if the bible says that we will be caught up at the last trumpet, and the last trumpet is after the 2 witnesses die (which is after 3 1/2 years) then how is it logically possible to conclude that the rapture is before the two witnesses prophesy?
Thanks Shamgar, the last Trumpet is not in the Bible is not in revelation, it is in Matthew 24:29-31 When God gathers the nation of Israel and tribulation saints to himself after he returns.
@@RobertFurrow I think I see what you're saying. What makes you sure these angels in Matthew 24 aren't the same angels with 7 trumpets in Revelation? Do you think revelation 7 is an account of what happens to the people who are raptured?
Hello, since a child, I have been interested in the book of Revelation. Particularly the coming of Jesus. But I haven't heard this book being taught in which is clear to me. Thank you, Pastor Robert and God bless you.😇
I'm curious to hear from a pre-trib proponent: If the entire 70th week of Daniel represents the "wrath of God", how do you explain the 5th seal? Is God pouring out His wrath specifically on those who faithfully hold to their testimony of Jesus?
Many people will come to faith during the Great Tribulation, and many will be persecuted for their faith during the Great Tribulation. There is a difference between people being persecuted for their faith and God pouring out his wrath on the disobedient. People still have free will during the Tribulation, so to think that all suffering during that time is related to God's wrath is quite a slippery slope.
There will be a great multitude from every nation people kindred and toungs that become born agian believers during daniels 70th week through the teaching of the 144000 Jewish evangelist. The souls under the altar in rev 6 9 are the same people being reserected in rev 20 4 they are beheaded for the word of God the witness of Jesus they did not worship the beast nor his immage nor take his mark. These people are clearly alive when daniels 70th week begins. The dead in christ in 1st thessalonians 4 16 18 are dead right now as we speak people like the deciples Paul Stephen early church fathers our grandparents etc... they cant very well be beheaded if they are already dead and in heaven with Jesus right now can they?
@@tonyeaton671 Thank you for your reply. I am not sure my question was understood though so let me try to clarify using a well-respected pre-trib voice on the matter. According to John MacArthur found here: www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/66-31/the-seventh-seal (Quote) "Now, we have already learned that before the day of the Lord hits there will be a series of judgments that express the wrath of God on the wicked world. There will be some preliminary judgments leading up to the day of the Lord. They’re described in the first five seals, back in chapter 6, and you will remember them if you’ve been with us. Those first five seals, in verses 1 through 11 of chapter 6, are horrifying expressions of the vengeance of God on sinners."(Un-Quote) I ask this question with the assumption that most pre-tribbers are in agreement with MacArthur's views on the seven seals as described above. I consider this as one of the pillars of the pre-trib viewpoint - being that believers are "not appointed unto wrath" coupled with the belief (by necessity) that the seals are expressions of the "wrath" of God. So "tribulation" in the 70th week of Daniel is assumed to be God's "wrath" by the pre-trib camp and believers are exempted from that "tribulation" (aka wrath) thus necessitating a pre-"tribulation" rapture. Am I correct on that? If so, then the 5th seal is specifically directed at believers and not the "sinful world" as MacArthur elaborated. Further, I notice the souls under the alter are questioning God saying: “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” This seems to indicate that God has yet to begin "judging and avenging" against those who dwell on the earth up to this point. Logically, it seems to follow that the seals (at least the first 5) are something other than God's wrath or judgement on the "sinful world". In that light, I ask again: How can the 5th seal (the martyrdom of believers who specifically remain faithful in the face of deadly persecution) be the "wrath of God"? While we're on the subject, I would also like to know source of the Biblical support for the idea that the 144,000 will be evangelists, and secondly how they're chosen after the sixth seal - yet somehow lead a multitude to salvation from the start of the 70th week and through the first 5 seals beforehand?
@@bluej2k who are the souls under the altar spifically? And where are they?under the altar. Rev 4 1 10 shows us around the throne rev 5 9 10 who are those in heaven redeemed by the blood from every people kindred toung and nation? So who are the SOULS under the alter? Rev 20 4 tells you they are those who were beheaded for the word of God the witness of Jesus they did not worship the beast nor his immage nor take his mark. These are those under the altar in rev 6 9. Notice they are souls not glorified bodies in rev 5 9 10 and rev 4 4 10 they are glorified bodies they are receiving crowns. The souls under the altar are just given white robes and told to wait till the full number are killed just as they were. Now who are the 144000 they are male Jewish men from the 12 tribes of israel. What is your job as a believer? Your job is to evangelize and make deciples that is your job right now is it not? So why would it be any different for the 144000 ? The other point is daniel 9 24 says 70 weeks are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE AND HOLY CITY Daniels people are israel jews the 12 tribes of israel thats who the 70th week is for. The church is not israel we are a new creation 2nd Corinthians 5 17. Daniels 70th week is for israels redemption not the churches redemption if your putting the church in any part of daniels 70th week you are following replacement theology and works salvation. And scripture is very clear we are not appointed to his wrath romans 5 9 1st thessalonians 5 9 1st thessalonians 1 10 who is the one breaking the seals giving the command for the trumpets to be blown and bowls poured out? Its Jesus God all 21 judgments are his wrath thats what we are not appointed to. John 16 33 says in this world you will have tribulation or trouble but be of good cheer I have overcome the world. The church has gone through tribulation persecution for nearly 2000 years we go through tribulation daily. There's a big difference between what tribulation is and what the seven year tribulation period is. The seven year tribulation period is when God sends his 21 judgments upon those who dwell upon the earth we are not earth dwellers according to John 15 19 and John 18 36. So who are the earth dwellers rev 6 10 rev 11 10 rev 14 6 tells you exactly who the earth dwellers are they are lost unsaved people. We are not lost or unsaved people.
Can someone explain 2 Thessalonians 2 where it indicates the rapture will occur AFTER the man of sin sits at n the temple if God? Would not that indicate a mid trib or post trib rapture? Please explain.
That's a 3.5 year gap. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Between the falling away and the desecration. Remember the antichrist comes into power and makes a covenant that last 3.5 years.
Thank you for the information. Some of what you said is what I had always believed but could not put into words. Other things you said made a lot of sense even though I had not understood it before.
There simply is no scripture in context that actually supports a pretrib rapture. Look at the context. Why do we abandon our hermeneutics when it comes to this subject?
@@RobertFurrow Well, thanks for replying. Okay, I think it's supported from the get-go. Jesus said he would return after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24). The disciples asked him what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age. They did not think of two "comings." It was one coming. And he told them various signs, but there is no reason to assume the comings and appearings he talks about in that passage are any different from one another. It's all one "coming" that is after the tribulation and comes after the world has been evangelized, after false prophets and false christs, after the abomination, will be like a thief, and will bring about judgment on the wicked and the unrighteous servants. To separate them would be to take one passage out of context. And I've seen many do just that. So Jesus set the paradigm. Then he said he would raise us up on the last day. You will have to wonder how a pretrib rapture is the last day. Paul says the coming of the Lord is when the dead in Christ are raised (1 Thess. 4). I can't imagine Paul talking about a different "coming" than the one Jesus himself discussed, can you? Paul would have made that difference abundantly clear. I mean, to think Paul would just nonchalantly talk about a different coming than the one in Matt. 24 is pure presumption. Yet that is exactly what the pretribbers do and it is unjustified. Paul says his coming is also like a thief in the night, and is when the wicked are destroyed (1 Thess 5:1-3). Yet are we to believe this coming is different than the one he discussed in ch. 4 (the rapture)? How can we do that? And the reason Paul says we escape this wrath poured out is not because of a different coming, or pretrib rapture. No. The reason Paul gives is because we are awake, sober, and watching. It won't overtake us as a thief because we are still here and aware of the times. The wicked are "asleep" and drunk on life. This echoes what Jesus said in Luke 21, where he said to be careful to not be weighed down with distractions and drunkenness and that day come on you unaware. But be praying to be counted worthy to escape these things (distractions, drunkenness of life, and his surprise coming) and stand before the Son of Man. If we are raptured, why the need to stand? But we stand in the trial with the full armor of God put on (Eph 6). And besides, who is praying to be counted worthy to be raptured? Are you? Do you know anyone? Isn't it a done deal for the church? There is much more, but that is a good start. God bless.
One question. 1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. This saying from 1 Corinthians is found in Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. According to Isaiah 25, when is 1 Corinthians 15:54 fulfilled?
Great Teaching Pastor Furrow. Everyone should watch this video, especially Preterists and all Historicists, so they can have Hope in Christ at His Second Coming, and not believe Jesus already came in A.D. 70 with the Roman Armies. I feel bad for Preterists and Historicists because they are "missing out" on the Futurist Biblical "Truths" of Pre-millenial Eschatology. Just saying. 👍🤴🕊️✝️ 🇮🇱
Hello Pastorales Robert may God almighty always keep you in heavenly places. Thanking you kindly for the blessings in these point's. This a perfect example to describe God taking up the church from earth to heaven as part of the second coming of Jesus Christ. 😇🙏❤Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 KJV).
I find your 7 points very interesting as they are standard John Darby and C. I. Scofield teachings. I used to subscribe to those teachings myself for over 40 years. I never really saw a need to study the doctrine of the rapture for myself because I figured that if you were post or mid trib, you would just be taken up a little earlier than you thought you would and there was no harm in that. But then I was leading a small home bible study and they wanted to study eschatology. So I decided to study it w/o commentaries, books, youtube videos or man's preaching on the subject. I just used the bible and a good concordance. I wrestled with what I saw in scripture because it was contradicting everything I had been taught. I finally had to realize that the pre trib view was erroneous. You mentioned that 1 Thess 4 talks about Jesus coming and taking his church to himself. That is no where found in that passage. It has to be assumed to fit a pre trib narrative. We call that eisegesis. In fact, I found that there is not a single verse stating the rapture will happen before the tribulation. On the contrary, it says the exact opposite. I Cor 15 tells us plainly that we will not all die but will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye" and the corruptible will put on incorruption. And it says that this (rapture) event will take place at the LAST trumpet. Obviously the last trumpet is not the first one that precedes all of the others. It is the last one. We know that there will be a trumpet after the great tribulation so the rapture cannot happen before it - not if we are to take prophecy (and Jesus' teaching) literally. I have read many testimonies on youtube about others who have done the same thing as I did. They were pre trib but then studied the bible and came away as post trib. God is waking up his church as the time is at hand. Here is why I think this is a very crucial topic. I believe that one of the reasons there will be a great falling away before the Lord returns is because people will feel betrayed by all the preachers that have told them all their lives that they will not have to face the antichrist or the great tribulation. They will be confused and not know what to believe. There will be intense pressure to take the mark of the beast so that they can buy and sell. Pastor Furrow, I once believed as you do but can now see how every one of your 7 points is biblically unsustainable. You probably find that hard to believe, but if you humble yourself, open your mind and really seek the Lord and ask Him to show you the truth, He is faithful and will do just that. I could refute all 7 of your points but it would be much better if the Lord reproves you. :) Please don't be a willing party to the falling away of our brothers and sisters in the Lord. God bless.
Your error is that you're assuming all the trumpets 🎺 are related, or referring to the same trumpet. There are many trumpets throughout the Bible. They are not necessarily related to each other .
@@RobertFurrow Pastor, I'm sure you do (as I also did). But I encourage you to open your mind to the possibility that there may not be a pre trib rapture. Just think of the harm you could be doing to the flock under your care if you are wrong. Perhaps you can tell me when it is that you believe the last trumpet will be. Will the last trumpet really be before the 7 trumpets in Revelation or the one in Matthew 24? I don't understand how that could be if we take prophecy literally. Perhaps you could help me out there. Pastor, it is not my intent to be argumentative but I would entreat you to consider just one more point. If we are to take scripture literally, then Revelation 20 is very clear that the 1st resurrection takes place after the tribulation as it specifically mentions that those who endured the tribulation are being raised at that time. To say that we are raptured 7 years earlier contradicts 1 Thess 4 which states the dead will rise first. Thank you for listening. God bless your study.
@@dnlcast2 What a strange reply. However, you assume wrong - I do not think all trumpets are related or refer to the same one. Perhaps you can tell me when the last trumpet is. I am very curious to hear your opinion on the matter.
@@thereturn2361 You're assuming the trumpet that Paul referenced is the same trumpet that is mentioned in Revelation. As i previously stated, there are many angels, with their own trumpets, so don't assume that a trumpet that the Apostle Paul mentions must be the exact same trumpet mentioned in Revelation. Simple concept.
Good morning Pastor Robert, I know I sound like a broken record but I love your teachings. Not because I agree 100% of the time, I'll allow that you can be wrong sometimes.😉 yeah I confess I stole that from you. Question: Just because a fellow believer thinks mid trib rather than pre tribulation but they are right with God in all other ways. That error in their understanding doesn't mean they won't be raptured with the rest of us does it? God bless and strengthen you. FEAR NOT
Good question! Christians do disagree on doctrines like the pre-tribulation rapture, and that is okay. God is always faithful to keep his word and to keep his children, even when we may not understand parts of what his word promises. There is no good reason to believe that those who disagree about the timing of the rapture will be left behind.
Was Lot carried out of Sodom the same day, or before the day that fire fell? Lot was carried out of Sodom in (on) the day of God's wrath, not prior to that day.
*Luke 17:28,29* "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;...But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all". Follow the timeline & order of events… *1* Lot was warned that the city would be destroyed, *Gen **19:13* “For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.” *2* The following morning, Lot was removed from the city; *Gen **19:16**,* “…the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.” *3* Destruction came AFTER Lot was gone, *Gen **19:24**.* _”THEN_ the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven”. • QUESTION: Where was Lot while it rained fire & brimstone? • ANSWER: GONE from the city…safe & secure w/o a spark touching him!
@@dobysmith744 Care to reply to this or the o/comment? In addition to *LOT* illustrating a rapture, *PRIOR* to the tribulation, the same holds true for *NOAH* who *ALSO* is given as an example in God's word... *Luke 17:26* “And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” Follow the timeline & order of events… *1* The command to enter the ark is found in *Gen 7:1,* “And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark..” *2* Noah & his family did just that, they entered the ark, *Gen 7:7.* “And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark…” *3* The flood waters came upon the earth, *Gen **10:10**,* “And it came to pass _AFTER SEVEN DAYS_ that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.” • QUESTION: Where was Noah during the flood? • ANSWER: High & lifted up, ABOVE the devastation & flood waters...out of harm's way!
It seems some Christians actually want to go through the tribulation. I have heard these people say the church must be 'purified'. The church is washed in the blood of Jesus. You cannot be better purified than that. The tribulation is a time of God's wrath upon the earth. There is no rational reason that God would want the church here during that. In fact, it would be unjust for God to allow the church to suffer punishment intended for the world.
@@ckline5486 Ready for a fresh perspective on the pre-tribulation rapture and the 144,000? Listen and meditate on this. ruclips.net/video/BHea9_QRJvc/видео.html
you should search look for tribulation in the kjv bible and find all usages of that word tribuation i think you might find it had nothing to do with God's wrath.
No. The purpose of the rapture is to remove the church from the world before the tribulation. The church is justified by their faith in Christ so it would be unjust for God to leave us here as he pours out his wrath upon the earth. Christians can suffer the wrath of man or Satan, but not the wrath of God. Jesus will return physically to the earth at the end of the tribulation, but Revelation tells us His return is exactly 2520 days after the tribulation starts. His tribulation return will not be a surprise to those who know scripture.
@@RobertFurrow If you are a Christian you are already ready. You are bathed in the blood of Jesus and clothed in his righteousness. You can't be more ready than that.
Yes . At the end of the book of revelation Jesus said he is coming like a thief in the night . Also Paul saids Jesus shouldn’t come like a thief in the night to you as a Christian
@@eeforest7122 Yes. The difference is between the Day of Christ 1 Thessalonians 4 and the Day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5. 18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. Amos 5:18.
I'm not quite sure I understand your question. A little more information may be helpful. If you're asking whether the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen in chronological order, there does seem to be a progression of judgment, with each of these events occurring during the Great Tribulation.
@@RobertFurrow Sorry about my english pastor its not really my native language. My question is when the tribulation happens when does the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls happen? Like how do we fit all that events in 7 years?
@@LastDaySaintJames You are referring to the Day of the Lord. Have you done a study on the difference between day of Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4 and the day of the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 5? This may help you... 18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. Amos 5:18
@@LastDaySaintJames Sorry for your complete misunderstanding. Are these the same? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Jn 14 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess 4 What about this one? 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24. Is there a difference in who is doing the gathering? What about these verses? 10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the Day of Christ, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the Day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2 And finally this one? 18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. Amos 5. If you have trouble seeing the difference then do your own word study.
@@LastDaySaintJames Yes...those are the sealed in Revelations... Rapture Christ Himself gathers. Protection Angels gather. Are you wanting on Christ or the Angels? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.” John 14 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24. See the difference. These are not at the same time.
Hi there, I noticed you used 1 Theasolonian 4 to defend that was the rapture taking place and then used Matthew 24 to say that was the second coming of Christ. However, if you read 1 Thesalonians 4 carefully, you will notce that this is speaking clearly of the second of Christ, and I quote: "14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[d] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - 1 Thesalonians 4:14-16 Notice, the " we who are left until the coming of our Lord" will not precede, or in other words will not be gathered with Jesus prior to those who have died in Christ first (verse 16). We know this is speaking clearly of the second coming of Christ, as you yourself quoted this to reference the second coming on minute (7:25). The voice of archangel is the second coming and at His second coming the dead in Christ rise first. Since we already examined that no believer will precede the dead in Christ, then it is very clear that noone is getting raptured until the descent of the Son of Man when He gathers those who have died in Christ first and then and those who are alive at His Seocnd coming 1 Thesalonians 14-16. God bless
I support a post tribulation rapture. I agree with your ending message that discussion should be done in a loving manner. This topic is not a salvation issue so it's not something to divide over. However, I do see the pre-trib belief as dangerous. If pre-trib is correct then praise God. If it is not then what happens to your faith when the tribulation happens and you're still here caught in the thick of it. At the very least faith will be shaken if not completely destroyed. If we're wrong on the rapture then what else are we wrong about? That will be mankind's worst time in the history of the world. That's not the time to be second guessing what you believe. As far as your 7 foundational points, I agree with some and disagree with others. 1) Prophesy is literal: I take all scripture literally unless scripture tells me not to. For example, at Passover Jesus said the wine was His blood (Matthew 26:28). The Catholic view is that the wine actually transforms into blood. I do not take this literally because in both old and new testaments it was forbidden to drink blood (Deuteronomy 12:23, Acts 15:20). If this was literally His blood then He would be causing us to sin by doing what is forbidden in the law. 2) Distinction between Israel and the Church: I believe Israel and the Church are one in the same. The first example of grafting is in Exodus 12:38. A mixed multitude left Egypt with the children of Israel. These were not descendants of Abraham. They witnessed the ten plagues in Egypt and believed in the God of Abraham. If you go forward to Numbers chapter 1 a census is taken of the men of fighting age. There is no number for this multitude that joined. That is because they were grafted into not only Israel but the individual tribes. After the rule of Solomon, the kingdom was split in two. Ten tribes in the north who were called Ephraim (aka house of Israel, house of Joseph) and the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the south called Judah. Judah later became known as Judea and the inhabitants were called Jews. Jews only represent two of the twelve tribes. The northern kingdom was destroyed by Assyria and the survivors scattered into all of the nations of the world. They assimilated into the culture of those nations and lost their identity. One of the Messianic prophesies is that the messiah would reunite the two houses into one nation (Ezekiel 37:15-24). This was not fulfilled in 1948 with the foundation of the Jewish state. Ezekiel 37:23 says they will not defile themselves with idols, detestable things, or transgressions. Tel Aviv Israel annually hold one of the worlds largest gay-lesbian parades. Jesus stated to the Canaanite woman He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV). "House of Israel" is a reference to the northern kingdom. The great commission was to teach all nations (Matthew 28:19). Prior to this there was no evangelizing to other countries. They were commanded to be a set apart people. The only time you taught a foreigner is when that foreigner came to Israel (Exodus 12:49). Jesus was fulfilling the prophesy of reuniting the two houses by sending His disciples to teach all nations because that's where the descendants of the northern kingdom are. He was uniting them by faith first. Christianity was only made possible because Israel was scattered. This is how God would fulfill His promise to Abraham that through him all the world would be blessed. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses tells Israel they will be regathered from all nations they were scattered to. This is before they ever went into the promised land. There were no Jews at that time. Moses spoke to all twelve tribes who were Hebrew. It is a chain of events that reveals God's overall plan. The world receives forgiveness of sins through Jesus. The world knows who Jesus is through His disciples. The disciples are sent to the nations because that's where the house of Israel is. They are in the nations because of being scattered as foretold in Deuteronomy. In Romans 11 grafting is described as believers being the branches of the cultivated olive tree. There's only one cultivated tree. He doesn't say there's one tree for Israel and another for the Church. A common argument is that the church began with Peter siting Matthew 16:18. There are two ways to look at what "build my church" means. One is that there is no church and now one will be built. The other is that there is already a church and to "build" is similar to building an addition causing it to grow and expand. Now look at Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) where it says Moses was with the church in the wilderness at mount Sinai. Since the church was already established then it did not begin with Peter. Rather through Peter it would grow and expand. NIV uses the word assembly instead of church. The Greek word we translate as church is ἐκκλησίᾳ (ekklēsia) Strong's Greek 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation. God never stopped working with Israel. There have been times when He worked with one kingdom while the other was being punished but this is not because He ended His relationship with either one. It's like a father who disciplines his child by putting him in time out. While the child is in time out, the father is not showing his loving and compassionate side but he never ceases to be his father. I believe the current nation of Israel is the southern kingdom of Judea (Judah and Benjamin) with Judah being reestablished as the ruling tribe in accordance with Jacob's blessing in Genesis 49:10. 1948 was also reinstating the promised land which is a prerequisite for the building of a third altar. That altar is needed for the fulfilment of a prophesy given by Daniel and referenced to by Jesus. The church is the northern kingdom. Some are descendants who lost their Hebrew identity and some are gentiles who were grafted in just like in Exodus 12:38. This is getting lengthy so I will address other points in a different post. Shalom
3) Imminent return of Christ: Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus does have the authority and the ability to come back at any second. The problem is that isn't what He said He would do. When He was asked what will be the sign of your coming in Matthew 24:3 He gives a long list of future events. The temple destruction, false Christs, love grows cold, abomination of desolation. Then finally in verse 29 He says after the tribulation of those days the sun will go dark and the moon will not give its light. The "tribulation of those days" He is talking about is the list He just gave you. The temple has been destroyed, we have had false Christs, and anyone watching politics lately can see that love has grown cold. What about the abomination of desolation? Matthew 24:15 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Jesus references Daniel 12:9-12 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. The daily sacrifice is the burnt offering. There is one in the morning and one in the evening. All other offerings would be presented between these two. The daily sacrifice has been taken away three times. Babylon destroyed the temple. Persia defeated Babylon and freed the Jews to rebuild the temple. Antiochus Epiphanes of Greece defiled the altar by offering a pig on it and setting up a statue of Zues. This led to the Maccabean war. After the war the altar was rededicated and sacrifices resumed. Both of these were before Jesus walked the earth so they are not the future event He said to look for. Then in 70 A.D. Rome destroyed to temple and to this day it has not been rebuilt so it doesn't match the 1290 day time frame set in Daniel. In order for Daniel's prophesy and Jesus reference to it to be fulfilled a third altar must be built in Jerusalem. This must happen first so that the daily sacrifice may begin. It has to begin before it can be taken away. Matthew 24:29 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: AFTER the tribulation of those days (the list He just gave you including the abomination of desolation) then the sun and moon go dark (matches sixth seal in Revelation 6:12) and stars fall from heaven (matches six seal in Revelation 6:13 and the war in heaven in Revelation 12:9). Matthew 24:30 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And THEN shall appear" shows this happens after the previous events He just told us about. While Jesus does have the power and authority to return at any time, He does not want anyone to be deceived. That is why He gave us specific signs to look for. He will not return until these signs have happened. When Jesus was asked what will be the sign of your coming, the first thing He said was, "Take head that no man deceive you".
@@RobertFurrow lol. Sorry for the length. One thought led to another and I just kept writing. That's why I'm breaking it down into sections. I share a different point of view but I mean it out of love not adversity. Shalom.
4)God will work with Israel again: He never stopped. Through Moses He worked with all twelve tribes. After the reign of Solomon the kingdom split and so God worked with Israel and Judah separately. God used Assyria to scatter Israel as their punishment for disobedience and Babylon as discipline for Judah. He continued working with Judah by bringing them back to the promised land because the messiah would come from that line. He didn't disown Israel while working with Judah. He was giving them time to serve out their judgment. After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, God used the disciples to start working with Israel again. That's where Christianity came from. They have a testimony of Jesus Christ, the messiah who God promised to send back in the Torah. The destruction of the temple and scattering of the Jews in 70 A.D. as well as the holocaust in WW2 I believe was God holding Judah to their vow in Matthew 27:25. Then in 1948 God started working with Judah again by reestablishing them in the promised land. Through all of that God never stopped working with the house of Israel and Christianity became world wide. Both Christianity and Judaism have some truth but have also become corrupted. Judaism knows God's law but have rejected His messiah. They have also added man-made laws called the Talmud which is one of the issues Jesus had against the Pharisees. Christianity knows Christ but have rejected God's Torah. The Torah is not Jewish. It is Hebrew and was given to all twelve tribes at mount Sinai. In Judaism, Rosh Hoshana which means "head of the year" is celebrated by the blowing of trumpets as a new year's celebration. It has replaced Yom Teruah (Day of Trumpets) which was commanded in Leviticus 23:23-25. The problem is that it is celebrated in the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar. The first month is Aviv when Passover is celebrated (Leviticus 23:5). Why would they celebrate new years in the seventh month? They got it from their exile in Babylon who celebrate new years twice in correlation with the spring and fall harvest. The fourth month of the Hebrew calendar was changed to Tammuz in honor of the Babylonian god. In Christianity, Christmas and Easter are the biggest two celebrations. Neither one is commanded in the Bible. The word Christmas doesn't even appear in the Bible. The celebrations that are commanded in Leviticus chapter 23 are ignored. The early traditions of Easter also come from Babylon regarding a fertility goddess named Ishtar (aka Isis in Egypt). Ishtar's son Tammuz was gored to death by a wild boar and so each year a pig is eaten in revenge. Ezekiel 8:14 14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Ezekiel 8:16 16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. I was raised in the Lutheran church. On Easter it was common for us to have a sunrise service followed by a ham luncheon. After reading Ezekiel I realized this had nothing to do with the resurrection of Christ. It was Babylonian tradition mixed with Christian doctrine. Why is this a big deal? Deuteronomy 12:30 30Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. God already covered the resurrection with His command to observe First Fruits in Leviticus 23:9-14. Paul acknowledges this in 1 Corinthians 15:20. The first fruits of the harvest is for the Lord. The harvest is the believers. Those who have died in Christ will be resurrected. The first of the resurrection is the Lord's portion. That was Christ. He is the first fruits. Leviticus 23:4 4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. Notice it doesn't say these are the feast of the Hebrews or the Jews. They are the feasts of the LORD. They are His feasts. If He is the God you serve then these are the times you celebrate. The church as well as the Jews are both mentioned in Revelation 18:4 but most don't like the name. Both have been influenced by Babylonian teachings. 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Right to the end God keeps working with both houses of Israel and Judah.
5)Dispensation or ages: I do believe in different ages but I don't view them in the same way. I see four ages each of which is revealing the nature of God. The first two thousand years is the age of the Father. This covers from God the Father creating heaven and earth to the patriarchs, the father's of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The second age is that of the sons. Starting with Moses leading the Children of Israel and ending with the death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God. The last two thousand years have been the age of the Holy Spirit. Over the last six thousand years God has revealed His nature as Father, Son and Holy Spirit to the world. In heavenly terms this has been six days. One day in heaven is like a thousand years on earth (2 Peter 3:8). God's law of the Sabbath states that you are to work for six days and on the seventh you rest (Leviticus 23:3). The last age will be the millennial reign. The 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth.
i llisten to you for approx 5-7 min from beginning and you have not shown or commented on any passage of scriture other than "israel shall be saved" and "Jesus come like a theif" that pretty much it those are verses and verses are in chapter im going to read romans 11 for myself because im sure romans 11 for example will tell me more about just saying "israel shall be saved" and if need i will look at other passage that tell me more. if you have passages that shown pre-trib by all means show them and i already know about Noah being in the boat and rev 3 "i will keep you from hour of trial" and Noah being in boat is god wrath that happen end of tribulation not before it so if you any info by all means tell me.
Thanks Greg, We do in this video, Maybe you could listen to the end and get all the passages, and we are coming out with anther video entitled In defense of the Pre-Tribulation rapture.
@@RobertFurrow Ok i listened your whole thing. first regarding romans 11 you said "israel shall be saved" that it. i read whole chapter 11 first off it says i reserved 7000 not bow knee to baal. then it say israel has been blinded God not caring about them anymore but gentile now get the gospel. then parable of olive tree and branched drafted in (gentile) then before where it says when israel shall be saved there conjuction "and" and it says "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" so based on this context it sound like to me that Israel represent Christians saved and elect Jews or 7000 saved conbined who recieved Jesus so that different from just saying "israel shall be saved" because when you say that alone and nothing else are you saying that all of the people of Israel will get saved no matter what? if u born a jew are you automatically going to heaven? can they sin all they want Reject Jesus get away with it? and not us? you did mention 1948 but did the Jews accept Jesus in 1948? romans 10 does say Jesus is fulfillment of whole thing so to me i sound like one can say the olive tree parable coming together is belief in Jesus ultimately i dont see how you say that god deal with Jews and christians differently? you did mention dispensationalism well didnt abraham get saved also david in OT? doesnt hebrew 10 talk about how blood goat bulls cant take away sin and the rest of passage tell more about this? that is why i mentioned in prev statment about paradise or jail cells in hell where OT people go to in OT i never seen that passage anywhere.
Yes, it's interesting you would state that, yet offer nothing by way of support. Isn't your post basically empty? This video posited an alternate position to that which you seemingly subscribe to, but offered support for the position. Now, while there may be no "silver bullet" single verse/passage to validate either position, if you were limited to just *ONE* passage to support your view, what would that be, and why? At least post up something to discuss.
Hi Pastor, Thanks so much for the video, this was really good. The points you made that really spoke to me were #2, #4, and #6. 2 and 4 because of the distinctions between the church and Israel. #6 because you said 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, are two separate events I believe was what you said. I always understood them to be talking about one same event. I’ll pray and study it, and allow God to open my heart on this. Again, thanks Pastor. Be blessed!
Its a wonderful thing to realize that Jesus will save us from the tribulation. This is why, after explaining the rapture, Paul said, "Comfort one another with these words." If he told us we would suffer the tribulation, there would be nothing comforting about that.
Not sure how 1 Thessalonians 5:1 gives the timing of the rapture and I don't agree that the "but" word indicates that the rapture is not pre-tribulation.
@@RobertFurrow Not pre-tribulation? 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Day of Christ and 1 Thessalonians 5 Is the Day of the Lord. 18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. Amos 5:18. Know the difference.
@@jthomas5226 Ready for a fresh perspective on the pre-tribulation rapture and the 144,000? Listen and meditate on this. ruclips.net/video/BHea9_QRJvc/видео.html
Thanks Robert - well presented. It seems that much of the confusion comes from ignorance beginning way back in Genesis then in the Prophets. There also seems to be a proud satanic element at large in the Church that mocks the faith of others while spiritualising Scripture to undermine God's Word: Did God really say??
When Jesus comes the SECOND time He will appear to those who look for Him and love Him. Hebr 9:28. This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.( Second time.Acts 1:11.) Immediately after the tribulation Jesus shall appear from Heaven. (SECOND TIME) Matt. 24:29-30. When Jesus comes the second time He will descent from Heaven and we will meet Him in the air.( 1Thes 4:16). When Jesus comes the second time we will be gathering together unto Him.(2 Thes 2:1). When Jesus comes the second time He will come in flaming fire and vengeance to those unbelievers who had fallen away from the truth and then Jesus will be glorified in his saints in that day.(2Thes 1:8,10). Before Jesus comes the second time a falling away from the truth must take place for the antichrist to be revealed.(2Thes 2:3) When Jesus comes the second time He will destroy the antichrist with the brightness of His coming and those who had fallen away from the truth..(2Thes 2:8,10). Nobody is going to disappear (raptured) before Jesus comes the second time.
Over and over the Bible has the end-time Godly believers being delivered on the SAME day that the wicked are punished; not the case in a pre-trib rapture scenario; rapture rescues Godly and then wicked are punished seven years later at Armageddon. Jesus, Himself, gave two examples to look to in the end-times; Noah and Lot. Noah and his family were delivered on the same day the wicked perished in the flood. “In the 600th year of Noah’s life, on the 17th day of the 2nd month the floodgates of the deep opened and the heavens poured down rain. On that very day, Noah and his family entered the Ark.” Lot and his family were delivered on the same day the wicked are punished. 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 says, “God is just, He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you, and give relief to you who are troubled when the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven in flaming fire with His powerful angels bringing punishment to those who don’t know God and refuse to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.” 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 says, “Concerning the coming of the lord and our being gathered to Him…don’t let anyone deceive you. That Day of the Lord won’t come until two things happen first; the great apostasy and the man of sin is revealed.” (by the abomination of desolation) Joel 2:31 says, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon turned to blood BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the Lord.” And Jesus in the Olivet discourse talks about the rise of the anti-christ and the persecution of the saints and then says, “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon turned to blood.” Revelation chapter 6 has the 5th seal as the tribulation martyrs and then the 6th seal the sign in the sun and moon that Joel says comes right BEFORE the Day of the Lord. THEN the Bible says, “The people hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks and cried to the mountains ‘fall on us and hide us from the face of the one on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb, for the great Day of their wrath has come.’” 2nd Thessalonians was written to assure the church that they had not yet entered the day of the Lord. Why would anyone who was taught pre-trib theology think they had entered the day of the Lord? There is only one thing that should make a pre-tribber think he had entered the day of the Lord and that would be the disappearance of millions in the rapture. 2nd Peter 3:10 says, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.” Critical thinking tells us the heavens will NOT disappear with a roar; the elements will NOT be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will NOT be laid bare…” in the first 3 and a half years of the so-called tribulation period. So at the very least, the first 3 and a half years cannot be the day of the Lord. Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.” Notice, the protector or restrainer leaves then a terrible time of distress, and then everyone who name is written in the book is delivered. Revelation 3:10 says, “I will keep you from the time of testing coming upon the whole earth.” Sounds like pre-trib, BUT the word translated keep above is the Greek word tereo and it means “to guard by keeping the eye upon.” It does NOT mean to protect by taking us out before the tribulation starts.
Granted you have no actual scripture. And the church never taught this until mid 1800’s but hey don’t let common sense and evidence against secret rapture stop you from your need to escape rather than to stand for Christ.
Thanks Jimmy, The church did teach Jesus could return at any moment and even some in the 2nd Century taught Jesus was coming for his church before The Tribulation. That it was not taught before the 1800's is a christian urban myth.
Calvary Online & Hot Topics with Robert Furrow Hi, and well-done on using proper grammar to phrase the question! I'm wondering how critical it is to have the one acceptable understanding of so difficult (mysterious) a subject as eschatology. My personal view doesn't correspond with the popular "Left Behind" rapture school of thought, but though i disagree, i can't see it being a make-or-break issue. I reckon we'll all know for sure at some point, one way or the other. Yeah? I apologize if my comment seemed unnecessarily flippant. I may have been "in a mood."
@@hellisalie1138 Hi there, l appreciate your user name and wonder what your perspective on the eternal torment doctrine would be then? Regarding the rapture or “snatching away”, l find myself vacillating between pre and post as they both seem to have some good arguments but pre-trib feels like it makes more sense based on God’s view of His ecclesia. In a way you’re right that it doesn’t matter, we are striving to be faithful until He comes. I’m rather hoping for the pre-trib timing to be accurate because who would want to experience this terrible time, but l am aiming that l won’t be shaken up in my trust in Him if it doesn’t play out that way. Hoping for the pre-trib timing gives me comfort but if not, then it will still be epic no matter what we have to go through because it means Christ will be with us soon and we finally have arrived at the end of this wicked age. It’s stunning to think that we are the fortunate people to be the generation that sees His return.
CAROLEE VANDYK Hi! I think you have a very healthy perspective on the "harpazo," what people call the rapture. As such, there's no need for me to try and influence you. Many are "pre-trib or bust," and i worry for their spiritual integrity should it not play-out that way. But you've got a handle on it. I've come to see the doctrine of eternal torment as a wicked and depraved deception that smears God's character, pushes people away from embracing Jesus, and has caused 1500 years of untold grief and terror to humanity. Outside of that, it's fine. 😉 I very strongly recommend searching out youtube videos on the subject of whether "hell" is real or not. i am just a person, nobody of note, no seminary or bible-college training. Ultimately i could not reconcile eternal conscious torment with what i had learned about who God is supposed to be, according to the picture of him that develops throughout the whole of the scriptures. I snapped, called him a hypocrite and anything else you can think of, and broke off my relationship with him, one dark and ugly afternoon. Then he, ah, "spoke" to me. Told me he was still there, but not who i thought he was. I know how this sounds, but it was my experience. Out of the worst anguish came a new understanding, and i studied the doctrine of eternal torment extensively. What i learned changed my life. I could lead you point-by-point through what i learned, and would be happy to do so, but it is no short story with simple answers. I believed the doctrine of "hell" (not a scriptural word) for over 50 years, until i could no longer believe God would actually do that to his creation, the God of love, the God who is the personification of true Justice. Learning that hell is a false doctrine took so much grief and weight off of me, for which i am forever grateful, and i have zero doubts that hell is in fact a demonic lie. But it also required some mental recalibration, "soul-searching," to discover WHY to fear God, in the absence of the prospect of eternal flaming torture. Now i fear GOD, not hell. The fear of HELL is not the beginning of wisdom, it is instead the beginning of lifelong second-guessing and secret fears of not making the cut, of jumping through every hoop to avoid the eternal fire, NOT to be with Jesus, or the Most High. The parent of real love is love, not white-knuckle terror. "Love me or be roasted forever" is not a reasonable basis for a mutually-loving relationship. But this is only logic, or common sense, and not scriptural proof. That is a much deeper dive, involving original Hebrew and Greek, English translations which miss the mark, and "what" Jesus was speaking of when he spoke of "hell." Jesus spoke of Gehenna, and Hades, two entirely different places, both translated as hell, and neither of which referring to eternal conscious torment. Take a look at John 3:16, as if you've never seen it before, and had not been taught about eternal torment. What does it really say? Do the same with Romans 6:23. What does it SAY? What did God say would happen to Adam and Eve, if they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Anything in any of those places about burning for eternity? What does perish mean? What does death mean? Or to die? I recommend finding "The Fire That Consumes" by Edward Fudge on youtube, or any of numerous videos on the subject. Believers are "coming out of hell" in droves, and not because of wishful-thinking. That you are interested means perhaps you can be open to the prospect that perhaps we got something wrong, along the way. I am more than happy to discuss it with you, don't get me wrong. Just ask, seek, knock, as Jesus told us to do. We don't find that which we do not seek, and that is especially true of the Wisdom of the Most High God, when the mainstream has believed in lies. He WANTS us to seek him out, to not be complacent.
@@hellisalie1138 Hi! It is so good to hear that God has opened your understanding of who He really is and what His actual plan for humanity is. It is so rare to meet a fellow believer in this true and accurate perspective. That is why your user name caught my attention and l felt encouraged to reach out to you. I loved reading your reply.
You ask a great question. When it comes to challenging questions like these, where Scripture is not explicitly clear, it's very helpful to rest in the character of God. Jesus said that the kingdom of God belongs to children (Matt. 19). Likewise, pure and undefiled religion is carrying for children in need (James 1). It is possible that Jesus will take up the children with him based on his foreknowledge, and will certainly take up all believers to heaven, including children who have received Jesus. While we cannot say exactly how God will resolve this question, we do know that God is love, he is good, and he is perfectly wise. We rest in his goodness in questions like these.
The Latin Vulgate of the New Testament translates "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "rapiemur." Its English transliteration is the word "rapture." It's definitely there.
@@Kman. I believe that Rapture theory or doctrine is a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the passage from which it derives. It is in fact a fairly recent doctrine that not all of Christendom subscribes to. As for the afterlife, I have no clue. Only those who have experienced NDEs and even those are not all the same.
@@johnholliday5874 The rapture is *NOT* a "fairly recent doctrine". 1st off, if there are substantive passages of scripture that *VALIDATE* the doctrine, that in and of itself is support enough. But a cursory search will lead to find that even the early church leaders/fathers taught it, so no...that is incorrect what you've stated.
@@johnholliday5874 then you have to explaine 1st Corinthians 15 50 55 and 1st thessalonians 4 16 18 2nd thessalonians 2 6 8 john 14 1 3 luke 21 36 rev 3 10 and isaiah 26 19 21. Its not up to us to prove the pre trib rapture its upon you to dis prove it.
You can't believe a pre trib because it's not Biblically true!!! Jesus clearly says immediately AFTER the tribulation Matthew 24:29 Israel are the Believers in Christ... not a physical land!! Jesus can not come back at any random point... again their are clearly events that MUST take place before his return!! The great falling away and the man of sin be revealed!!! Let the holy spirit lead your Bible reading not man!!!
“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,” 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thanks Joel, I talk about this in the Video, Responses to 5 objections to the pre-trib rapture.ruclips.net/video/5ceI_uuPRFA/видео.html
If Christ is coming down to judge, how are we supposed to go up?
@Jake Smith u can stay, I'm going up when he calls, I won't be destroyed like half the planet. Remember it's to test those who dwell upon the earth! The bride doesn't need to be destroyed. Christ took it all. Good day young man.
@Jake Smith Enoch was taken, Elijah was taken, Jesus was taken, I will be taken up to heaven. Good luck. Read the bible
@Jake Smith What that verse mean in context is that when your born again and recieve the Holy Spirit, you don't go right to heaven immediately. The purpose of course is because then no one would be left to share the Gospel. Our home is with God. Jesus is preparing a place for us and we will go where he is like he promised. The wrath is for the world not the church.
Maybe I missed it but I guess I still don't understand what the foundation of believing in a pre-tribulation rapture is. I'm looking for hard biblical evidence to explain the theory. I agree with believing exactly what the Bible says just like you do, but if someone wants to convince me that the pre-tribulation rapture is true, then for me the main thing they have to address is if the bible says that we will be caught up at the last trumpet, and the last trumpet is after the 2 witnesses die (which is after 3 1/2 years) then how is it logically possible to conclude that the rapture is before the two witnesses prophesy?
Thanks Shamgar, the last Trumpet is not in the Bible is not in revelation, it is in Matthew 24:29-31 When God gathers the nation of Israel and tribulation saints to himself after he returns.
@@RobertFurrow I think I see what you're saying.
What makes you sure these angels in Matthew 24 aren't the same angels with 7 trumpets in Revelation? Do you think revelation 7 is an account of what happens to the people who are raptured?
Smart man, easy to understand, and straight to the point.
Thanks Michael
Hello, since a child, I have been interested in the book of Revelation. Particularly the coming of Jesus. But I haven't heard this book being taught in which is clear to me. Thank you, Pastor Robert and God bless you.😇
Thanks for sharing!
Prewrath,,, 1of2wits
I'm curious to hear from a pre-trib proponent: If the entire 70th week of Daniel represents the "wrath of God", how do you explain the 5th seal? Is God pouring out His wrath specifically on those who faithfully hold to their testimony of Jesus?
Many people will come to faith during the Great Tribulation, and many will be persecuted for their faith during the Great Tribulation. There is a difference between people being persecuted for their faith and God pouring out his wrath on the disobedient. People still have free will during the Tribulation, so to think that all suffering during that time is related to God's wrath is quite a slippery slope.
There will be a great multitude from every nation people kindred and toungs that become born agian believers during daniels 70th week through the teaching of the 144000 Jewish evangelist.
The souls under the altar in rev 6 9 are the same people being reserected in rev 20 4 they are beheaded for the word of God the witness of Jesus they did not worship the beast nor his immage nor take his mark. These people are clearly alive when daniels 70th week begins.
The dead in christ in 1st thessalonians 4 16 18 are dead right now as we speak people like the deciples Paul Stephen early church fathers our grandparents etc... they cant very well be beheaded if they are already dead and in heaven with Jesus right now can they?
@@tonyeaton671 Thank you for your reply. I am not sure my question was understood though so let me try to clarify using a well-respected pre-trib voice on the matter. According to John MacArthur found here: www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/66-31/the-seventh-seal
(Quote) "Now, we have already learned that before the day of the Lord hits there will be a series of judgments that express the wrath of God on the wicked world.
There will be some preliminary judgments leading up to the day of the Lord. They’re described in the first five seals, back in chapter 6, and you will remember them if you’ve been with us. Those first five seals, in verses 1 through 11 of chapter 6, are horrifying expressions of the vengeance of God on sinners."(Un-Quote)
I ask this question with the assumption that most pre-tribbers are in agreement with MacArthur's views on the seven seals as described above. I consider this as one of the pillars of the pre-trib viewpoint - being that believers are "not appointed unto wrath" coupled with the belief (by necessity) that the seals are expressions of the "wrath" of God. So "tribulation" in the 70th week of Daniel is assumed to be God's "wrath" by the pre-trib camp and believers are exempted from that "tribulation" (aka wrath) thus necessitating a pre-"tribulation" rapture. Am I correct on that?
If so, then the 5th seal is specifically directed at believers and not the "sinful world" as MacArthur elaborated. Further, I notice the souls under the alter are questioning God saying: “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” This seems to indicate that God has yet to begin "judging and avenging" against those who dwell on the earth up to this point. Logically, it seems to follow that the seals (at least the first 5) are something other than God's wrath or judgement on the "sinful world".
In that light, I ask again: How can the 5th seal (the martyrdom of believers who specifically remain faithful in the face of deadly persecution) be the "wrath of God"?
While we're on the subject, I would also like to know source of the Biblical support for the idea that the 144,000 will be evangelists, and secondly how they're chosen after the sixth seal - yet somehow lead a multitude to salvation from the start of the 70th week and through the first 5 seals beforehand?
@@bluej2k who are the souls under the altar spifically? And where are they?under the altar.
Rev 4 1 10 shows us around the throne rev 5 9 10 who are those in heaven redeemed by the blood from every people kindred toung and nation?
So who are the SOULS under the alter? Rev 20 4 tells you they are those who were beheaded for the word of God the witness of Jesus they did not worship the beast nor his immage nor take his mark. These are those under the altar in rev 6 9. Notice they are souls not glorified bodies in rev 5 9 10 and rev 4 4 10 they are glorified bodies they are receiving crowns. The souls under the altar are just given white robes and told to wait till the full number are killed just as they were.
Now who are the 144000 they are male Jewish men from the 12 tribes of israel. What is your job as a believer? Your job is to evangelize and make deciples that is your job right now is it not? So why would it be any different for the 144000 ?
The other point is daniel 9 24 says 70 weeks are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE AND HOLY CITY Daniels people are israel jews the 12 tribes of israel thats who the 70th week is for. The church is not israel we are a new creation 2nd Corinthians 5 17.
Daniels 70th week is for israels redemption not the churches redemption if your putting the church in any part of daniels 70th week you are following replacement theology and works salvation. And scripture is very clear we are not appointed to his wrath romans 5 9 1st thessalonians 5 9 1st thessalonians 1 10 who is the one breaking the seals giving the command for the trumpets to be blown and bowls poured out? Its Jesus God all 21 judgments are his wrath thats what we are not appointed to.
John 16 33 says in this world you will have tribulation or trouble but be of good cheer I have overcome the world. The church has gone through tribulation persecution for nearly 2000 years we go through tribulation daily.
There's a big difference between what tribulation is and what the seven year tribulation period is. The seven year tribulation period is when God sends his 21 judgments upon those who dwell upon the earth we are not earth dwellers according to John 15 19 and John 18 36.
So who are the earth dwellers rev 6 10 rev 11 10 rev 14 6 tells you exactly who the earth dwellers are they are lost unsaved people. We are not lost or unsaved people.
@@tonyeaton671 So, to come to the point of the question: You believe the 5th seal is an expression of the wrath of God?
Can someone explain 2 Thessalonians 2 where it indicates the rapture will occur AFTER the man of sin sits at n the temple if God? Would not that indicate a mid trib or post trib rapture? Please explain.
Yes, we have a video, Five Responses to pre-trip Objections, ruclips.net/video/5ceI_uuPRFA/видео.html It's covered here.
Tom,
When does the bible say the antichrist is revealed? What event starts the seven year tribulation period?
Its s post tribulation this video is a false teaching dont listen to him
@@dopiestaxe2558 What does 2 Thessalonians 2 mean?
That's a 3.5 year gap.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Between the falling away and the desecration. Remember the antichrist comes into power and makes a covenant that last 3.5 years.
Thank you for the information. Some of what you said is what I had always believed but could not put into words. Other things you said made a lot of sense even though I had not understood it before.
Thanks for sharing!
What camera and mic did you use to film this?
I think it's a RODE mic
There simply is no scripture in context that actually supports a pretrib rapture. Look at the context. Why do we abandon our hermeneutics when it comes to this subject?
Thanks Mike, We don't abandon Hermeneutic, what is you Position and how do you support it in scripture?
@@RobertFurrow Well, thanks for replying. Okay, I think it's supported from the get-go. Jesus said he would return after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24). The disciples asked him what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age. They did not think of two "comings." It was one coming. And he told them various signs, but there is no reason to assume the comings and appearings he talks about in that passage are any different from one another. It's all one "coming" that is after the tribulation and comes after the world has been evangelized, after false prophets and false christs, after the abomination, will be like a thief, and will bring about judgment on the wicked and the unrighteous servants. To separate them would be to take one passage out of context. And I've seen many do just that. So Jesus set the paradigm. Then he said he would raise us up on the last day. You will have to wonder how a pretrib rapture is the last day. Paul says the coming of the Lord is when the dead in Christ are raised (1 Thess. 4). I can't imagine Paul talking about a different "coming" than the one Jesus himself discussed, can you? Paul would have made that difference abundantly clear. I mean, to think Paul would just nonchalantly talk about a different coming than the one in Matt. 24 is pure presumption. Yet that is exactly what the pretribbers do and it is unjustified. Paul says his coming is also like a thief in the night, and is when the wicked are destroyed (1 Thess 5:1-3). Yet are we to believe this coming is different than the one he discussed in ch. 4 (the rapture)? How can we do that? And the reason Paul says we escape this wrath poured out is not because of a different coming, or pretrib rapture. No. The reason Paul gives is because we are awake, sober, and watching. It won't overtake us as a thief because we are still here and aware of the times. The wicked are "asleep" and drunk on life. This echoes what Jesus said in Luke 21, where he said to be careful to not be weighed down with distractions and drunkenness and that day come on you unaware. But be praying to be counted worthy to escape these things (distractions, drunkenness of life, and his surprise coming) and stand before the Son of Man. If we are raptured, why the need to stand? But we stand in the trial with the full armor of God put on (Eph 6). And besides, who is praying to be counted worthy to be raptured? Are you? Do you know anyone? Isn't it a done deal for the church? There is much more, but that is a good start. God bless.
One question.
1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
This saying from 1 Corinthians is found in Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory;
and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces;
and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth:
for the Lord hath spoken it.
According to Isaiah 25, when is 1 Corinthians 15:54 fulfilled?
Thanks Ben, are you saying that all these thing happen at the same moment or at the same time like the last days?
@@RobertFurrow I'm not saying anything. I simply asked a question about the specific statement of Paul about the fulfillment of prophecy.
Great Teaching Pastor Furrow. Everyone should watch this video, especially Preterists and all Historicists, so they can have Hope in Christ at His Second Coming, and not believe Jesus already came in A.D. 70 with the Roman Armies. I feel bad for Preterists and Historicists because they are "missing out" on the Futurist Biblical "Truths" of Pre-millenial Eschatology. Just saying. 👍🤴🕊️✝️ 🇮🇱
Thanks Ken
Hello Pastorales Robert may God almighty always keep you in heavenly places. Thanking you kindly for the blessings in these point's. This a perfect example to describe God taking up the church from earth to heaven as part of the second coming of Jesus Christ. 😇🙏❤Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 KJV).
Thanks Ivette, and may God continue to bless you!
I find your 7 points very interesting as they are standard John Darby and C. I. Scofield teachings. I used to subscribe to those teachings myself for over 40 years. I never really saw a need to study the doctrine of the rapture for myself because I figured that if you were post or mid trib, you would just be taken up a little earlier than you thought you would and there was no harm in that. But then I was leading a small home bible study and they wanted to study eschatology. So I decided to study it w/o commentaries, books, youtube videos or man's preaching on the subject. I just used the bible and a good concordance. I wrestled with what I saw in scripture because it was contradicting everything I had been taught. I finally had to realize that the pre trib view was erroneous.
You mentioned that 1 Thess 4 talks about Jesus coming and taking his church to himself. That is no where found in that passage. It has to be assumed to fit a pre trib narrative. We call that eisegesis. In fact, I found that there is not a single verse stating the rapture will happen before the tribulation. On the contrary, it says the exact opposite. I Cor 15 tells us plainly that we will not all die but will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye" and the corruptible will put on incorruption. And it says that this (rapture) event will take place at the LAST trumpet. Obviously the last trumpet is not the first one that precedes all of the others. It is the last one. We know that there will be a trumpet after the great tribulation so the rapture cannot happen before it - not if we are to take prophecy (and Jesus' teaching) literally.
I have read many testimonies on youtube about others who have done the same thing as I did. They were pre trib but then studied the bible and came away as post trib. God is waking up his church as the time is at hand.
Here is why I think this is a very crucial topic. I believe that one of the reasons there will be a great falling away before the Lord returns is because people will feel betrayed by all the preachers that have told them all their lives that they will not have to face the antichrist or the great tribulation. They will be confused and not know what to believe. There will be intense pressure to take the mark of the beast so that they can buy and sell.
Pastor Furrow, I once believed as you do but can now see how every one of your 7 points is biblically unsustainable. You probably find that hard to believe, but if you humble yourself, open your mind and really seek the Lord and ask Him to show you the truth, He is faithful and will do just that. I could refute all 7 of your points but it would be much better if the Lord reproves you. :) Please don't be a willing party to the falling away of our brothers and sisters in the Lord. God bless.
Your error is that you're assuming all the trumpets 🎺 are related, or referring to the same trumpet. There are many trumpets throughout the Bible. They are not necessarily related to each other .
Thanks Gamewinner, There are several things I find untenable in scripture in the idea that the Church will go into the tribulation period.
@@RobertFurrow Pastor, I'm sure you do (as I also did). But I encourage you to open your mind to the possibility that there may not be a pre trib rapture. Just think of the harm you could be doing to the flock under your care if you are wrong. Perhaps you can tell me when it is that you believe the last trumpet will be. Will the last trumpet really be before the 7 trumpets in Revelation or the one in Matthew 24? I don't understand how that could be if we take prophecy literally. Perhaps you could help me out there.
Pastor, it is not my intent to be argumentative but I would entreat you to consider just one more point. If we are to take scripture literally, then Revelation 20 is very clear that the 1st resurrection takes place after the tribulation as it specifically mentions that those who endured the tribulation are being raised at that time. To say that we are raptured 7 years earlier contradicts 1 Thess 4 which states the dead will rise first.
Thank you for listening. God bless your study.
@@dnlcast2 What a strange reply. However, you assume wrong - I do not think all trumpets are related or refer to the same one. Perhaps you can tell me when the last trumpet is. I am very curious to hear your opinion on the matter.
@@thereturn2361 You're assuming the trumpet that Paul referenced is the same trumpet that is mentioned in Revelation. As i previously stated, there are many angels, with their own trumpets, so don't assume that a trumpet that the Apostle Paul mentions must be the exact same trumpet mentioned in Revelation. Simple concept.
Good morning Pastor Robert, I know I sound like a broken record but I love your teachings. Not because I agree 100% of the time, I'll allow that you can be wrong sometimes.😉 yeah I confess I stole that from you.
Question: Just because a fellow believer thinks mid trib rather than pre tribulation but they are right with God in all other ways. That error in their understanding doesn't mean they won't be raptured with the rest of us does it? God bless and strengthen you. FEAR NOT
Good question! Christians do disagree on doctrines like the pre-tribulation rapture, and that is okay. God is always faithful to keep his word and to keep his children, even when we may not understand parts of what his word promises. There is no good reason to believe that those who disagree about the timing of the rapture will be left behind.
Was Lot carried out of Sodom the same day, or before the day that fire fell? Lot was carried out of Sodom in (on) the day of God's wrath, not prior to that day.
Thank Doby, the important things is that God wrath did not start until Lot was gone.
@@RobertFurrow you don't get it.....
@@RobertFurrow wrath came the same day he was taken out, not prior to that day. Lot was saved on the day of wrath.
*Luke 17:28,29* "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;...But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all".
Follow the timeline & order of events…
*1* Lot was warned that the city would be destroyed, *Gen **19:13* “For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.”
*2* The following morning, Lot was removed from the city; *Gen **19:16**,* “…the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.”
*3* Destruction came AFTER Lot was gone, *Gen **19:24**.* _”THEN_ the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven”.
• QUESTION: Where was Lot while it rained fire & brimstone?
• ANSWER: GONE from the city…safe & secure w/o a spark touching him!
@@dobysmith744 Care to reply to this or the o/comment? In addition to *LOT* illustrating a rapture, *PRIOR* to the tribulation, the same holds true for *NOAH* who *ALSO* is given as an example in God's word...
*Luke 17:26* “And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.”
Follow the timeline & order of events…
*1* The command to enter the ark is found in *Gen 7:1,* “And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark..”
*2* Noah & his family did just that, they entered the ark, *Gen 7:7.* “And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark…”
*3* The flood waters came upon the earth, *Gen **10:10**,* “And it came to pass _AFTER SEVEN DAYS_ that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.”
• QUESTION: Where was Noah during the flood?
• ANSWER: High & lifted up, ABOVE the devastation & flood waters...out of harm's way!
It seems some Christians actually want to go through the tribulation. I have heard these people say the church must be 'purified'. The church is washed in the blood of Jesus. You cannot be better purified than that. The tribulation is a time of God's wrath upon the earth. There is no rational reason that God would want the church here during that. In fact, it would be unjust for God to allow the church to suffer punishment intended for the world.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Charles. God bless!
@@RobertFurrow Thank you sir. 🙂
@@LastDaySaintJames Well said. They do wishful interpretation in my opinion instead of hermeneutics.
@@ckline5486 Ready for a fresh perspective on the pre-tribulation rapture and the 144,000? Listen and meditate on this.
ruclips.net/video/BHea9_QRJvc/видео.html
you should search look for tribulation in the kjv bible and find all usages of that word tribuation i think you might find it had nothing to do with God's wrath.
Thank god for Robert 🤗
;-)
Can't Jesus still come like a thief in the tribulation?
No. The purpose of the rapture is to remove the church from the world before the tribulation. The church is justified by their faith in Christ so it would be unjust for God to leave us here as he pours out his wrath upon the earth. Christians can suffer the wrath of man or Satan, but not the wrath of God. Jesus will return physically to the earth at the end of the tribulation, but Revelation tells us His return is exactly 2520 days after the tribulation starts. His tribulation return will not be a surprise to those who know scripture.
Right and that is why we are suppose to be ready!
@@RobertFurrow If you are a Christian you are already ready. You are bathed in the blood of Jesus and clothed in his righteousness. You can't be more ready than that.
Yes . At the end of the book of revelation Jesus said he is coming like a thief in the night . Also Paul saids Jesus shouldn’t come like a thief in the night to you as a Christian
@@eeforest7122 Yes. The difference is between the Day of Christ 1 Thessalonians 4 and the Day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5.
18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light. Amos 5:18.
Excellent
Thanks
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Thanks Robert
Thank you
Thanks for watching!
Pastor just want to ask how does the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls work in the time scale of the tribulation?
I'm not quite sure I understand your question. A little more information may be helpful. If you're asking whether the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen in chronological order, there does seem to be a progression of judgment, with each of these events occurring during the Great Tribulation.
@@RobertFurrow Sorry about my english pastor its not really my native language. My question is when the tribulation happens when does the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls happen? Like how do we fit all that events in 7 years?
@@LastDaySaintJames You are referring to the Day of the Lord. Have you done a study on the difference between day of Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4 and the day of the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 5? This may help you...
18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:18
@@LastDaySaintJames Sorry for your complete misunderstanding.
Are these the same?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Jn 14
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess 4
What about this one?
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24.
Is there a difference in who is doing the gathering? What about these verses?
10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the Day of Christ,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the Day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2
And finally this one?
18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
Amos 5.
If you have trouble seeing the difference then do your own word study.
@@LastDaySaintJames Yes...those are the sealed in Revelations... Rapture Christ Himself gathers. Protection Angels gather.
Are you wanting on Christ or the Angels?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
John 14
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24.
See the difference. These are not at the same time.
Hi there, I noticed you used 1 Theasolonian 4 to defend that was the rapture taking place and then used Matthew 24 to say that was the second coming of Christ. However, if you read 1 Thesalonians 4 carefully, you will notce that this is speaking clearly of the second of Christ, and I quote:
"14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[d] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - 1 Thesalonians 4:14-16
Notice, the " we who are left until the coming of our Lord" will not precede, or in other words will not be gathered with Jesus prior to those who have died in Christ first (verse 16). We know this is speaking clearly of the second coming of Christ, as you yourself quoted this to reference the second coming on minute (7:25). The voice of archangel is the second coming and at His second coming the dead in Christ rise first.
Since we already examined that no believer will precede the dead in Christ, then it is very clear that noone is getting raptured until the descent of the Son of Man when He gathers those who have died in Christ first and then and those who are alive at His Seocnd coming 1 Thesalonians 14-16.
God bless
Thanks
The cross is heavy, but worth lifting
Thanks Ernest
Very well done 🙏
Thanks
I support a post tribulation rapture. I agree with your ending message that discussion should be done in a loving manner. This topic is not a salvation issue so it's not something to divide over. However, I do see the pre-trib belief as dangerous. If pre-trib is correct then praise God. If it is not then what happens to your faith when the tribulation happens and you're still here caught in the thick of it. At the very least faith will be shaken if not completely destroyed. If we're wrong on the rapture then what else are we wrong about? That will be mankind's worst time in the history of the world. That's not the time to be second guessing what you believe.
As far as your 7 foundational points, I agree with some and disagree with others.
1) Prophesy is literal: I take all scripture literally unless scripture tells me not to. For example, at Passover Jesus said the wine was His blood (Matthew 26:28). The Catholic view is that the wine actually transforms into blood. I do not take this literally because in both old and new testaments it was forbidden to drink blood (Deuteronomy 12:23, Acts 15:20). If this was literally His blood then He would be causing us to sin by doing what is forbidden in the law.
2) Distinction between Israel and the Church: I believe Israel and the Church are one in the same. The first example of grafting is in Exodus 12:38. A mixed multitude left Egypt with the children of Israel. These were not descendants of Abraham. They witnessed the ten plagues in Egypt and believed in the God of Abraham. If you go forward to Numbers chapter 1 a census is taken of the men of fighting age. There is no number for this multitude that joined. That is because they were grafted into not only Israel but the individual tribes. After the rule of Solomon, the kingdom was split in two. Ten tribes in the north who were called Ephraim (aka house of Israel, house of Joseph) and the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the south called Judah. Judah later became known as Judea and the inhabitants were called Jews. Jews only represent two of the twelve tribes. The northern kingdom was destroyed by Assyria and the survivors scattered into all of the nations of the world. They assimilated into the culture of those nations and lost their identity. One of the Messianic prophesies is that the messiah would reunite the two houses into one nation (Ezekiel 37:15-24). This was not fulfilled in 1948 with the foundation of the Jewish state. Ezekiel 37:23 says they will not defile themselves with idols, detestable things, or transgressions. Tel Aviv Israel annually hold one of the worlds largest gay-lesbian parades. Jesus stated to the Canaanite woman He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV). "House of Israel" is a reference to the northern kingdom. The great commission was to teach all nations (Matthew 28:19). Prior to this there was no evangelizing to other countries. They were commanded to be a set apart people. The only time you taught a foreigner is when that foreigner came to Israel (Exodus 12:49). Jesus was fulfilling the prophesy of reuniting the two houses by sending His disciples to teach all nations because that's where the descendants of the northern kingdom are. He was uniting them by faith first. Christianity was only made possible because Israel was scattered. This is how God would fulfill His promise to Abraham that through him all the world would be blessed. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses tells Israel they will be regathered from all nations they were scattered to. This is before they ever went into the promised land. There were no Jews at that time. Moses spoke to all twelve tribes who were Hebrew. It is a chain of events that reveals God's overall plan. The world receives forgiveness of sins through Jesus. The world knows who Jesus is through His disciples. The disciples are sent to the nations because that's where the house of Israel is. They are in the nations because of being scattered as foretold in Deuteronomy. In Romans 11 grafting is described as believers being the branches of the cultivated olive tree. There's only one cultivated tree. He doesn't say there's one tree for Israel and another for the Church. A common argument is that the church began with Peter siting Matthew 16:18. There are two ways to look at what "build my church" means. One is that there is no church and now one will be built. The other is that there is already a church and to "build" is similar to building an addition causing it to grow and expand. Now look at Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) where it says Moses was with the church in the wilderness at mount Sinai. Since the church was already established then it did not begin with Peter. Rather through Peter it would grow and expand. NIV uses the word assembly instead of church. The Greek word we translate as church is ἐκκλησίᾳ (ekklēsia) Strong's Greek 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.
God never stopped working with Israel. There have been times when He worked with one kingdom while the other was being punished but this is not because He ended His relationship with either one. It's like a father who disciplines his child by putting him in time out. While the child is in time out, the father is not showing his loving and compassionate side but he never ceases to be his father. I believe the current nation of Israel is the southern kingdom of Judea (Judah and Benjamin) with Judah being reestablished as the ruling tribe in accordance with Jacob's blessing in Genesis 49:10. 1948 was also reinstating the promised land which is a prerequisite for the building of a third altar. That altar is needed for the fulfilment of a prophesy given by Daniel and referenced to by Jesus. The church is the northern kingdom. Some are descendants who lost their Hebrew identity and some are gentiles who were grafted in just like in Exodus 12:38.
This is getting lengthy so I will address other points in a different post. Shalom
3) Imminent return of Christ: Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus does have the authority and the ability to come back at any second. The problem is that isn't what He said He would do. When He was asked what will be the sign of your coming in Matthew 24:3 He gives a long list of future events. The temple destruction, false Christs, love grows cold, abomination of desolation. Then finally in verse 29 He says after the tribulation of those days the sun will go dark and the moon will not give its light. The "tribulation of those days" He is talking about is the list He just gave you. The temple has been destroyed, we have had false Christs, and anyone watching politics lately can see that love has grown cold. What about the abomination of desolation?
Matthew 24:15 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Jesus references Daniel 12:9-12
9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The daily sacrifice is the burnt offering. There is one in the morning and one in the evening. All other offerings would be presented between these two. The daily sacrifice has been taken away three times. Babylon destroyed the temple. Persia defeated Babylon and freed the Jews to rebuild the temple. Antiochus Epiphanes of Greece defiled the altar by offering a pig on it and setting up a statue of Zues. This led to the Maccabean war. After the war the altar was rededicated and sacrifices resumed. Both of these were before Jesus walked the earth so they are not the future event He said to look for. Then in 70 A.D. Rome destroyed to temple and to this day it has not been rebuilt so it doesn't match the 1290 day time frame set in Daniel. In order for Daniel's prophesy and Jesus reference to it to be fulfilled a third altar must be built in Jerusalem. This must happen first so that the daily sacrifice may begin. It has to begin before it can be taken away.
Matthew 24:29 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
AFTER the tribulation of those days (the list He just gave you including the abomination of desolation) then the sun and moon go dark (matches sixth seal in Revelation 6:12) and stars fall from heaven (matches six seal in Revelation 6:13 and the war in heaven in Revelation 12:9).
Matthew 24:30 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
"And THEN shall appear" shows this happens after the previous events He just told us about. While Jesus does have the power and authority to return at any time, He does not want anyone to be deceived. That is why He gave us specific signs to look for. He will not return until these signs have happened. When Jesus was asked what will be the sign of your coming, the first thing He said was, "Take head that no man deceive you".
Thanks Brent, This is a long post ;-)
@@RobertFurrow lol. Sorry for the length. One thought led to another and I just kept writing. That's why I'm breaking it down into sections. I share a different point of view but I mean it out of love not adversity. Shalom.
4)God will work with Israel again: He never stopped. Through Moses He worked with all twelve tribes. After the reign of Solomon the kingdom split and so God worked with Israel and Judah separately. God used Assyria to scatter Israel as their punishment for disobedience and Babylon as discipline for Judah. He continued working with Judah by bringing them back to the promised land because the messiah would come from that line. He didn't disown Israel while working with Judah. He was giving them time to serve out their judgment. After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, God used the disciples to start working with Israel again. That's where Christianity came from. They have a testimony of Jesus Christ, the messiah who God promised to send back in the Torah. The destruction of the temple and scattering of the Jews in 70 A.D. as well as the holocaust in WW2 I believe was God holding Judah to their vow in Matthew 27:25. Then in 1948 God started working with Judah again by reestablishing them in the promised land. Through all of that God never stopped working with the house of Israel and Christianity became world wide. Both Christianity and Judaism have some truth but have also become corrupted. Judaism knows God's law but have rejected His messiah. They have also added man-made laws called the Talmud which is one of the issues Jesus had against the Pharisees. Christianity knows Christ but have rejected God's Torah.
The Torah is not Jewish. It is Hebrew and was given to all twelve tribes at mount Sinai. In Judaism, Rosh Hoshana which means "head of the year" is celebrated by the blowing of trumpets as a new year's celebration. It has replaced Yom Teruah (Day of Trumpets) which was commanded in Leviticus 23:23-25. The problem is that it is celebrated in the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar. The first month is Aviv when Passover is celebrated (Leviticus 23:5). Why would they celebrate new years in the seventh month? They got it from their exile in Babylon who celebrate new years twice in correlation with the spring and fall harvest. The fourth month of the Hebrew calendar was changed to Tammuz in honor of the Babylonian god.
In Christianity, Christmas and Easter are the biggest two celebrations. Neither one is commanded in the Bible. The word Christmas doesn't even appear in the Bible. The celebrations that are commanded in Leviticus chapter 23 are ignored. The early traditions of Easter also come from Babylon regarding a fertility goddess named Ishtar (aka Isis in Egypt). Ishtar's son Tammuz was gored to death by a wild boar and so each year a pig is eaten in revenge.
Ezekiel 8:14 14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
Ezekiel 8:16 16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
I was raised in the Lutheran church. On Easter it was common for us to have a sunrise service followed by a ham luncheon. After reading Ezekiel I realized this had nothing to do with the resurrection of Christ. It was Babylonian tradition mixed with Christian doctrine. Why is this a big deal?
Deuteronomy 12:30 30Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
God already covered the resurrection with His command to observe First Fruits in Leviticus 23:9-14. Paul acknowledges this in 1 Corinthians 15:20. The first fruits of the harvest is for the Lord. The harvest is the believers. Those who have died in Christ will be resurrected. The first of the resurrection is the Lord's portion. That was Christ. He is the first fruits.
Leviticus 23:4 4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Notice it doesn't say these are the feast of the Hebrews or the Jews. They are the feasts of the LORD. They are His feasts. If He is the God you serve then these are the times you celebrate.
The church as well as the Jews are both mentioned in Revelation 18:4 but most don't like the name. Both have been influenced by Babylonian teachings.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Right to the end God keeps working with both houses of Israel and Judah.
5)Dispensation or ages: I do believe in different ages but I don't view them in the same way. I see four ages each of which is revealing the nature of God. The first two thousand years is the age of the Father. This covers from God the Father creating heaven and earth to the patriarchs, the father's of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The second age is that of the sons. Starting with Moses leading the Children of Israel and ending with the death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God. The last two thousand years have been the age of the Holy Spirit. Over the last six thousand years God has revealed His nature as Father, Son and Holy Spirit to the world. In heavenly terms this has been six days. One day in heaven is like a thousand years on earth (2 Peter 3:8). God's law of the Sabbath states that you are to work for six days and on the seventh you rest (Leviticus 23:3). The last age will be the millennial reign. The 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth.
i llisten to you for approx 5-7 min from beginning and you have not shown or commented on any passage of scriture other than "israel shall be saved" and "Jesus come like a theif" that pretty much it those are verses and verses are in chapter im going to read romans 11 for myself because im sure romans 11 for example will tell me more about just saying "israel shall be saved" and if need i will look at other passage that tell me more. if you have passages that shown pre-trib by all means show them and i already know about Noah being in the boat and rev 3 "i will keep you from hour of trial" and Noah being in boat is god wrath that happen end of tribulation not before it so if you any info by all means tell me.
Thanks Greg, We do in this video, Maybe you could listen to the end and get all the passages, and we are coming out with anther video entitled In defense of the Pre-Tribulation rapture.
@@RobertFurrow Ok i listened your whole thing. first regarding romans 11 you said "israel shall be saved" that it. i read whole chapter 11 first off it says i reserved 7000 not bow knee to baal. then it say israel has been blinded God not caring about them anymore but gentile now get the gospel. then parable of olive tree and branched drafted in (gentile) then before where it says when israel shall be saved there conjuction "and" and it says "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" so based on this context it sound like to me that Israel represent Christians saved and elect Jews or 7000 saved conbined who recieved Jesus so that different from just saying "israel shall be saved" because when you say that alone and nothing else are you saying that all of the people of Israel will get saved no matter what? if u born a jew are you automatically going to heaven? can they sin all they want Reject Jesus get away with it? and not us? you did mention 1948 but did the Jews accept Jesus in 1948? romans 10 does say Jesus is fulfillment of whole thing so to me i sound like one can say the olive tree parable coming together is belief in Jesus ultimately i dont see how you say that god deal with Jews and christians differently? you did mention dispensationalism well didnt abraham get saved also david in OT? doesnt hebrew 10 talk about how blood goat bulls cant take away sin and the rest of passage tell more about this? that is why i mentioned in prev statment about paradise or jail cells in hell where OT people go to in OT i never seen that passage anywhere.
Really good points!!
Thanks Dianne
That was helpful, thank you. Very clear and concise explanation re: replacement theology. There most certainly is a distinction.
Glad it was helpful!
THERE is very specific passages that state VERY CLEARLEY .... post trib / after the trib / last trumpet /
What passages? The trumpet judgements of revelation are not the last trumpets for Christians because we are already gone.
Thanks for watching. I'd love to know the passages you're thinking of. God bless.
Yes, it's interesting you would state that, yet offer nothing by way of support. Isn't your post basically empty? This video posited an alternate position to that which you seemingly subscribe to, but offered support for the position. Now, while there may be no "silver bullet" single verse/passage to validate either position, if you were limited to just *ONE* passage to support your view, what would that be, and why? At least post up something to discuss.
1 COR 15:52
Says AT the last Trumpet.
Thanks Hey, When is the last Trumpet? The text does not say the last of the seven trumpets, many read into the text what is not there.
Thank you for making a very difficult subject clear and easy to understand.
Glad it was helpful!
Amen
It’s definitely an exciting promise we have in Scripture!
Hi Pastor,
Thanks so much for the video, this was really good. The points you made that really spoke to me were #2, #4, and #6.
2 and 4 because of the distinctions between the church and Israel. #6 because you said 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, are two separate events I believe was what you said. I always understood them to be talking about one same event.
I’ll pray and study it, and allow God to open my heart on this. Again, thanks Pastor. Be blessed!
Glad you were blessed!
Its a wonderful thing to realize that Jesus will save us from the tribulation. This is why, after explaining the rapture, Paul said, "Comfort one another with these words." If he told us we would suffer the tribulation, there would be nothing comforting about that.
1 Thessalonians 5 gives the timing of the rapture, and it's not pre tribulation. Notice the big but word 1 Thessalonians 5:1
Not sure how 1 Thessalonians 5:1 gives the timing of the rapture and I don't agree that the "but" word indicates that the rapture is not pre-tribulation.
@@RobertFurrow Not pre-tribulation? 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Day of Christ and 1 Thessalonians 5 Is the Day of the Lord.
18 Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:18.
Know the difference.
@@jthomas5226 Ready for a fresh perspective on the pre-tribulation rapture and the 144,000? Listen and meditate on this.
ruclips.net/video/BHea9_QRJvc/видео.html
Amen it's Pre Trib Rapture for sure.......
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Thanks Frank
Thanks Robert - well presented. It seems that much of the confusion comes from ignorance beginning way back in Genesis then in the Prophets. There also seems to be a proud satanic element at large in the Church that mocks the faith of others while spiritualising Scripture to undermine God's Word: Did God really say??
Thanks Kyle
When Jesus comes the SECOND time He will appear to those who look for Him and love Him. Hebr 9:28.
This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.( Second time.Acts 1:11.)
Immediately after the tribulation Jesus shall appear from Heaven. (SECOND TIME) Matt. 24:29-30.
When Jesus comes the second time He will descent from Heaven and we will meet Him in the air.( 1Thes 4:16).
When Jesus comes the second time we will be gathering together unto Him.(2 Thes 2:1).
When Jesus comes the second time He will come in flaming fire and vengeance to those unbelievers who had fallen away from the truth and then Jesus will be glorified in his saints in that day.(2Thes 1:8,10).
Before Jesus comes the second time a falling away from the truth must take place for the antichrist to be revealed.(2Thes 2:3)
When Jesus comes the second time He will destroy the antichrist with the brightness of His coming and those who had fallen away from the truth..(2Thes 2:8,10).
Nobody is going to disappear (raptured) before Jesus comes the second time.
Thanks Johannes, we have a study on 2 Thess 2 here ruclips.net/video/JUfD-KkIt3c/видео.html We cover why this does not happen after the tribulation.
Over and over the Bible has the end-time Godly believers being delivered on the SAME day that the wicked are punished; not the case in a pre-trib rapture scenario; rapture rescues Godly and then wicked are punished seven years later at Armageddon. Jesus, Himself, gave two examples to look to in the end-times; Noah and Lot. Noah and his family were delivered on the same day the wicked perished in the flood. “In the 600th year of Noah’s life, on the 17th day of the 2nd month the floodgates of the deep opened and the heavens poured down rain. On that very day, Noah and his family entered the Ark.” Lot and his family were delivered on the same day the wicked are punished. 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 says, “God is just, He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you, and give relief to you who are troubled when the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven in flaming fire with His powerful angels bringing punishment to those who don’t know God and refuse to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.” 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 says, “Concerning the coming of the lord and our being gathered to Him…don’t let anyone deceive you. That Day of the Lord won’t come until two things happen first; the great apostasy and the man of sin is revealed.” (by the abomination of desolation) Joel 2:31 says, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon turned to blood BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the Lord.” And Jesus in the Olivet discourse talks about the rise of the anti-christ and the persecution of the saints and then says, “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon turned to blood.” Revelation chapter 6 has the 5th seal as the tribulation martyrs and then the 6th seal the sign in the sun and moon that Joel says comes right BEFORE the Day of the Lord. THEN the Bible says, “The people hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks and cried to the mountains ‘fall on us and hide us from the face of the one on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb, for the great Day of their wrath has come.’” 2nd Thessalonians was written to assure the church that they had not yet entered the day of the Lord. Why would anyone who was taught pre-trib theology think they had entered the day of the Lord? There is only one thing that should make a pre-tribber think he had entered the day of the Lord and that would be the disappearance of millions in the rapture. 2nd Peter 3:10 says, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.” Critical thinking tells us the heavens will NOT disappear with a roar; the elements will NOT be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will NOT be laid bare…” in the first 3 and a half years of the so-called tribulation period. So at the very least, the first 3 and a half years cannot be the day of the Lord. Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.” Notice, the protector or restrainer leaves then a terrible time of distress, and then everyone who name is written in the book is delivered. Revelation 3:10 says, “I will keep you from the time of testing coming upon the whole earth.” Sounds like pre-trib, BUT the word translated keep above is the Greek word tereo and it means “to guard by keeping the eye upon.” It does NOT mean to protect by taking us out before the tribulation starts.
Thanks
Granted you have no actual scripture. And the church never taught this until mid 1800’s but hey don’t let common sense and evidence against secret rapture stop you from your need to escape rather than to stand for Christ.
Thanks Jimmy, The church did teach Jesus could return at any moment and even some in the 2nd Century taught Jesus was coming for his church before The Tribulation. That it was not taught before the 1800's is a christian urban myth.
Why does it matter.
To what are you referring?
Calvary Online & Hot Topics with Robert Furrow Hi, and well-done on using proper grammar to phrase the question!
I'm wondering how critical it is to have the one acceptable understanding of so difficult (mysterious) a subject as eschatology. My personal view doesn't correspond with the popular "Left Behind" rapture school of thought, but though i disagree, i can't see it being a make-or-break issue.
I reckon we'll all know for sure at some point, one way or the other. Yeah?
I apologize if my comment seemed unnecessarily flippant. I may have been "in a mood."
@@hellisalie1138 Hi there, l appreciate your user name and wonder what your perspective on the eternal torment doctrine would be then? Regarding the rapture or “snatching away”, l find myself vacillating between pre and post as they both seem to have some good arguments but pre-trib feels like it makes more sense based on God’s view of His ecclesia. In a way you’re right that it doesn’t matter, we are striving to be faithful until He comes. I’m rather hoping for the pre-trib timing to be accurate because who would want to experience this terrible time, but l am aiming that l won’t be shaken up in my trust in Him if it doesn’t play out that way. Hoping for the pre-trib timing gives me comfort but if not, then it will still be epic no matter what we have to go through because it means Christ will be with us soon and we finally have arrived at the end of this wicked age. It’s stunning to think that we are the fortunate people to be the generation that sees His return.
CAROLEE VANDYK Hi! I think you have a very healthy perspective on the "harpazo," what people call the rapture. As such, there's no need for me to try and influence you. Many are "pre-trib or bust," and i worry for their spiritual integrity should it not play-out that way. But you've got a handle on it.
I've come to see the doctrine of eternal torment as a wicked and depraved deception that smears God's character, pushes people away from embracing Jesus, and has caused 1500 years of untold grief and terror to humanity.
Outside of that, it's fine. 😉
I very strongly recommend searching out youtube videos on the subject of whether "hell" is real or not. i am just a person, nobody of note, no seminary or bible-college training. Ultimately i could not reconcile eternal conscious torment with what i had learned about who God is supposed to be, according to the picture of him that develops throughout the whole of the scriptures.
I snapped, called him a hypocrite and anything else you can think of, and broke off my relationship with him, one dark and ugly afternoon.
Then he, ah, "spoke" to me. Told me he was still there, but not who i thought he was. I know how this sounds, but it was my experience. Out of the worst anguish came a new understanding, and i studied the doctrine of eternal torment extensively.
What i learned changed my life. I could lead you point-by-point through what i learned, and would be happy to do so, but it is no short story with simple answers.
I believed the doctrine of "hell" (not a scriptural word) for over 50 years, until i could no longer believe God would actually do that to his creation, the God of love, the God who is the personification of true Justice.
Learning that hell is a false doctrine took so much grief and weight off of me, for which i am forever grateful, and i have zero doubts that hell is in fact a demonic lie. But it also required some mental recalibration, "soul-searching," to discover WHY to fear God, in the absence of the prospect of eternal flaming torture. Now i fear GOD, not hell. The fear of HELL is not the beginning of wisdom, it is instead the beginning of lifelong second-guessing and secret fears of not making the cut, of jumping through every hoop to avoid the eternal fire, NOT to be with Jesus, or the Most High. The parent of real love is love, not white-knuckle terror. "Love me or be roasted forever" is not a reasonable basis for a mutually-loving relationship.
But this is only logic, or common sense, and not scriptural proof. That is a much deeper dive, involving original Hebrew and Greek, English translations which miss the mark, and "what" Jesus was speaking of when he spoke of "hell." Jesus spoke of Gehenna, and Hades, two entirely different places, both translated as hell, and neither of which referring to eternal conscious torment.
Take a look at John 3:16, as if you've never seen it before, and had not been taught about eternal torment. What does it really say? Do the same with Romans 6:23. What does it SAY? What did God say would happen to Adam and Eve, if they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Anything in any of those places about burning for eternity? What does perish mean? What does death mean? Or to die?
I recommend finding "The Fire That Consumes" by Edward Fudge on youtube, or any of numerous videos on the subject. Believers are "coming out of hell" in droves, and not because of wishful-thinking.
That you are interested means perhaps you can be open to the prospect that perhaps we got something wrong, along the way. I am more than happy to discuss it with you, don't get me wrong. Just ask, seek, knock, as Jesus told us to do. We don't find that which we do not seek, and that is especially true of the Wisdom of the Most High God, when the mainstream has believed in lies. He WANTS us to seek him out, to not be complacent.
@@hellisalie1138 Hi! It is so good to hear that God has opened your understanding of who He really is and what His actual plan for humanity is. It is so rare to meet a fellow believer in this true and accurate perspective. That is why your user name caught my attention and l felt encouraged to reach out to you. I loved reading your reply.
What about all the children in the world? Will they also go with the Rapture?
You ask a great question. When it comes to challenging questions like these, where Scripture is not explicitly clear, it's very helpful to rest in the character of God. Jesus said that the kingdom of God belongs to children (Matt. 19). Likewise, pure and undefiled religion is carrying for children in need (James 1). It is possible that Jesus will take up the children with him based on his foreknowledge, and will certainly take up all believers to heaven, including children who have received Jesus. While we cannot say exactly how God will resolve this question, we do know that God is love, he is good, and he is perfectly wise. We rest in his goodness in questions like these.
Or how about no "Rapture" because it ain't in there?
The Latin Vulgate of the New Testament translates "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "rapiemur." Its English transliteration is the word "rapture." It's definitely there.
You denounce a rapture altogether, regardless of *WHEN* it takes place?
@@Kman. I believe that Rapture theory or doctrine is a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the passage from which it derives. It is in fact a fairly recent doctrine that not all of Christendom subscribes to.
As for the afterlife, I have no clue. Only those who have experienced NDEs and even those are not all the same.
@@johnholliday5874 The rapture is *NOT* a "fairly recent doctrine". 1st off, if there are substantive passages of scripture that *VALIDATE* the doctrine, that in and of itself is support enough. But a cursory search will lead to find that even the early church leaders/fathers taught it, so no...that is incorrect what you've stated.
@@johnholliday5874 then you have to explaine 1st Corinthians 15 50 55 and 1st thessalonians 4 16 18 2nd thessalonians 2 6 8 john 14 1 3 luke 21 36 rev 3 10 and isaiah 26 19 21.
Its not up to us to prove the pre trib rapture its upon you to dis prove it.
You can't believe a pre trib because it's not Biblically true!!!
Jesus clearly says immediately AFTER the tribulation Matthew 24:29
Israel are the Believers in Christ... not a physical land!!
Jesus can not come back at any random point... again their are clearly events that MUST take place before his return!! The great falling away and the man of sin be revealed!!!
Let the holy spirit lead your Bible reading not man!!!
Thanks, the Rapture is His getting the church, His Return is Matthew 24:29