I love that John gets passionate with Anthony, using strong tones, volume, eye contact, etc, because it puts Anthony on the spot. It's one thing to know the theory and logic of street epistemology, but put it to practice when emotions run high a lot is at stake is an entirely different experience. Thank you both!
Can’t believe this doesn’t have more views. This was such a great video and this is such a valuable tool for approaching these convos since it goes “straight for the jugular” in the nicest sense of that metaphor by scrutinizing the very reason that people hold their beliefs.
This was a very good episode. Originally I didn’t think that the role play was going to be as interesting, helpful, or exploratory, but there was some really useful, interesting, and beneficial knowledge there. Well done MSP team and Anthony. Great job Carah bringing Anthony to John’s attention.
Thank you to John and Carah. This is so helpful. The loving and respectful approach Anthony is teaching is powerful for families to strengthen relationships. Thank you for the relationship tools!
I'm preparing to have this conversation with my parents this upcoming holiday when I'm home. This was beautiful and impeccably timed. Thank you so much, loved this series. Also, this seems to be more kind and charitable than just about everything on Midnight Mormons or seemingly any other Mormon/Christian apologists channels.
This example conversation was so helpful and it sounds like a conversation I could have with my TBM son. I anticipate having a similar one with him this holiday time when he comes to visit. I can envision how we will touch on many of the main topics of the church, such as having felt the spirit, having born testimony previously in my life and him worrying about my soul. I will be using this video as my training course before he comes hone.
Quite possibly the best and most informative series in all of Mormon Stories (and I love LOVE LOVE Mormon Stories). Thanks for the empowering tools and shift in mindset for better conversations - this is sorely needed on both sides of the conversation.
Omg, I know John is role playing and not trying to be funny, but I am dying when I see a straight-faced “this is the worst thing you could say to us 😐” 😂
And how about "You mean Russell Nelson sweetheart" and "You're going to make your mom cry"? John was great. I want to see him role-play like this more often. He nailed that part and could totally do an entire sitcom as that character!
@@mylesmarkson1686 little late to the party, but Carah and John made me laugh so hard a few times I had tears in my eyes. They did an amazing job doing the role play.
The early discussion about the difference between spiritual knowledge and the scientific-kind of knowledge is such a key aspect of maintaining mormon belief ... or at least it was for me. Once I noticed that I had divided my mind into two realms, and that I was using a different thinking processes for church things I became uncomfortable. I decided that it was not fully honest to go on that way. And I felt like I had been taught that the "truth" would stand up to examination. ... well that didn't work out so great for my participating in the church. Once I abandoned the special thinking processes that I had been using for church stuff the belief could not survive. For me having one mind and one standard of evidence was necessary as part of respecting the value of truth (which ironically I got that standard from the church), and having a single standard has made maintaining mormon beliefs impossible for me.
OMH two missionaries just showed up at my downtown Salt Lake CIty door - and I had a terrific SE style conversation with them! The one thing I didn't do was the informed consent piece, they just launched in and so I started asking questions. In years past I would have just said I wasn't interested - or told them I was an atheist to scare them. By the time I got to my 0.5% confidence that there is a god/s, they didn't seem to shocked - of course they wanted to tell me their beliefs, I just kept asking if praying and the holy spirit was reliable. By the time they left we had gotten to the Big Bang Theory and evidence for evolution lol. And I sincerely wished them good luck and good health on the rest of their missions. Thank you so much Mormon Stories team and Anthony.
Excellent! We’re finding (in the development of the SE course) that there are factors to consider when decidong to what degree one moght want to obtain informed consent. If you approach someone to have an SE type talk, then the duty for informed consent may be higher than if someone approaches you. Food for thought. Thanks for taking the time to engage with others with this style and sharing your experience here with us.
Anthony I’m a very big fan of you and your approach to SE ! Although it’s difficult with family and loved ones I feel this formula is 10 times better than debates 👍🏼
😆 this is the x-mo version of the commitment pattern from my mission. Personally I will never challenge my parents on this but conversely they never tried to cast me out because I may not be living up to their expectations of whatever. I feel for people that have to deal with this in a much more severe way.
This may be silly, but your (John and Cara) portrayal as the Mormon parents literally made me cry in the car. I think this is exactly what my parents would say. It also made me feel like having this conversation is pointless unless they initiate it. But the technique would be very useful should they initiate this conversation. Bottom line, no point in me forcing this conversation if my folks want to keep up the don’t ask don’t tell policy.
I’ve had these conversations. They are fruitless and painful and usually lead to bad feelings and hurt relationships. My advice is create boundaries and then don’t talk about it
@@grantbeck9228 I completely agree, but this fact makes me very sad. It feels like you have two choices. Choice 1 (the one I am currently going with) is to have an arms length, inauthentic relationship with my parents. One in which they really don't ever know who I truly am. Choice two is to have an honest conversation, which results in them believing that I have been deceived by satan, where my dad gets angry and my mom ends up sad and spends her evenings praying for me to find my way back. Neither of these choices are good.
This was hard to listen to at times, but I was also laughing out loud in a couple of spots. Carah and John were BRILLIANT as the parents! This should probably come with a trigger warning 🤣I agree with a lot of the commenters that it would be extremely unusual for something this reasonable sounding to actually happen. Anthony's approach and his ability to stay in the process is something to aspire to.
My sister and brother had screaming matches with my parents but my conversation was calm and lasted for hours... I had no clue about the SE approach but honestly I had a cordial conversation using some of these same points. I think it's important to lean SE. Thank you John for doing thes episodes.
I have really loved this SE week on mormon stories. You know what would be great? ... seeing an SE conversation where the person has a solid claim with good reasons for believing it and seeing what an SE examination of that looks like. For instance a claim like "I believe the earth is round" or "I believe that hand washing reduces the spread of disease" ... are there conversations like that that we could see?
Hm... My guess is over abundance of peer reviewed scientific agreement vs. disagreement on the subject. Like a flat earth group invested into a laser setup over a distance to prove the earth isn't curved and couldn't prove it. That made it hard for them to explain their own findings. Scientific findings are rigorously validated my multiple researchers doing validation studies. At least in physics, medicine, etc. Fields like psychology have theories that get less validation, say the polyvagal theory that for some 25+ years hasn't gotten much study besides Stephen Porges himself.
Claims that appear to be well-backed by testable and repeatable means seem to be more challenging to apply SE on. Perhaps someone who disagrees with one of those examples could learn SE and role-play or actually explore it using this approach. These subjects are often covered in the SE discord servers.
Loved watching Anthony double team his parents in a role play scenario. Jokes aside, this was a very informative series and very helpful for me as somebody in faith transition.
Probably my favorite line from this video... "I think what this is coming down to is that you think you have really good reasons. And when I look at your reasons for thinking that its true, I don't find them as very good reasons. That's all thats happening here. I'm not angry with you. I'm not angry with God, or anything like that.... I think it just comes down to the quality of the reasons that you're giving and that have been given to me for thinking that its true, and I just don't find them sufficient. I'm sorry that it hurts you. I don't want to hurt you."
I LOVE THIS!!! I would very much love to be part of the army of street epistomologists. I live in Davis County Utah and I am a USU alum of the School Psychology Program and NCSP. This approach speaks to me and I really love how it works and what it is meant to do. I fear, however, that I am not in a good chapter of my life to do this on the street. But if there is a role I can do at home on a flexible basis, (currently stay at home mom of 3 littles), I would love to chat about it!
I am saving this, formulating an open letter point by point. You are correct that my Mormon family would never refrain from emotional manipulation and blackmail of my eternal soul. You are spot on.
I have had these conversations with my parents and grandparentsarents. This was very close to home! It was so entertaining hearing the same arguments and seeing how I could have addressed things differently. I have read Peter Boghosian's book, but i have a hard time not turning to the facts, which I know doesn't work in conversation witb most people. It was fun to see how Anthony navigated around those without bringing facts into play and keeping the conversation open. Thanks for the content!
I feel like Anthony's approach is currently changing my brain. It's been building through these five videos on Mormon Stories. I keep wondering what underlying beliefs might be influencing my emotions and how I react to others' words and behaviors. Thank you so much for this series. I am very thankful for Mormon Stories!!! ❤️❤️❤️
I enjoyed this video. I think using this with Bishops who will then report back to the parents who are more apt to let the bishop talk for way longer than they would allow their child to speak, is a good idea. Parents aren’t emotionally charged up with the bishop like they are with their kids, they tend to treat the bishop with more respect than an apostate offspring. Of course bishop roulette will yield vastly different experiences, but for most LDS parents SE with the bishop first instead may be a better choice.
I felt so hard for Anthony in this situation, especially when he asked in the last 30 minutes “what was so bad about my questions and my reasoning?” Or something like that. I think he probably expects that a person’s parents would allow and support them to be their own person and live by their own conscience. My experience in Mormonism is that you must obey your parents and obey the prophet. I wasn’t given (still not) the respect to believe how I want to believe. I am a disappointment. I have “gone off the deep end.” And my reasoning will never be seen as valid unless my family chooses to change their mindset about me.
I also would add, I don’t think it’s fair to say that Exmormons acting out in complete desperation to be heard is a total failure on their part. I find it to be impossible to get through to most members of the church. It’s exasperating that our existence is so invalidated. What other healthy relationship exists where a person is asked to console their abuser while telling them they were hurt? I can’t think of one. I am tired of the Mormon Fragility and I personally seek to make more Mormons uncomfortable and to learn to respect other ways of life.
@@amandalunt4325 I acted out in very hurtful ways too. I regret having hurt my parents but I don’t know how I would have done anything differently. It just sucks. It always will. But I love you Amanda. You are awesome. You are welcome in my home anytime.
Hey guys, this was a great video and I loved how John and Carah really internalized the role of the "mormon parents". As a way to avoid talking to parents directly though, I don't think the suggestion Carah made about sending the video to your parents would ever really work because if they are closed to a direct 10 minute discussion with their kid, it's very doubtful that they would even begin listening to an hour and a half long video that discusses why what they believe is wrong. I can't even get my own dad to watch a short 10 minute video going over the basics of evolution so an 1.5hr+ video would be completely out of the question.
I'm glad they mentioned at the end that when they were acting as Mormon parents they held back on the emotional abuse. Still it would have been fun to see Anthony try to use SE against constant accusations of being an alcoholic, a failure, a disappointment, just going through a phase, just wanting to hurt us, not accomplishing what we did at your age, just trying to destroy our family, etc.
Man, this is such a fascinating topic. What does everyone think about doing SE with people who have had supernatural experiences such as seeing angels, having dreams that came true, or experiencing crazy coincidences. Those are some of the things that keep my mind open to the possibility of the supernatural. I haven't personally experienced those things but I doubt that everyone who professes to have had them is lying.
I doubt everyone thinks that these people are all lying. But there are very different and more reliable methods to find out what is happening than attributing this to the supernatural. We are animals that see patterns ... even if something is completely random. e.g. a rock formation might look like a face from an angle... but it isn't one... after investigating we know it's just rock and it looks very different from another angle while a face with the same angle change normally would still look like a face and can do face things ( ;) ) which the rock doesn't do. Same goes for experiences that can be reproduced by stimulating certain parts of the brain- which would make much more sense to have the brain temporarily malfunctioning/working differently than actually having a vision... like an aura during a migraine. And so on... (I personally during a migraines saw something whose shape looked like the 90° angled eye of sauron ... around which was a rainbow halo and the inside was bright and distorted light --- a bit like a portal from a scifi show. As soon as the migraine stopped which wasn't painful btw... my vision went back to normal. But I had read about malfunctioning brains before and therefore had no reason to assume a supernatural event. Also once I identified the reasons for the migraines, my docs ruling out a stroke or other neurological conditions, and was able to stop them and it never happened again.) As far as I know thorough investigation of supernatural things so far either yielded a very different explanation than supernatural or a 'we don't know' (which all to often then turned into good scientific explanation). But it is entirely possible for the brain to function in a way that some people leap to supernatural explanations about the information they process with that organ. I mean it is an organ... and just like the liver or kidney this organ doesn't always work 100% either. But if those people can prove a supernatural occurrence beyond reasonable doubt they can certainly try to do that... maybe one day they'll succeed.
As a someone who was raised by a critical thinking father and a mother who thought beliefs were too personal to share with others, I did not have the need for talks like this with them. However, if I was to put myself to the question(s) posed to Anthony concerning the motive behind critical evaluation of the faith, I would perhaps use the analogy of wanting to rough camp versus 'glamping' in an RV in this life. The former is more uncomfortable, riskier and inconvenient, but it allows me to sleep closer to reality than the latter. While I understand it is somewhat passive/aggressive in nature, it would spark the admirable emotions of care, seeking, and even play, while still positively ameliorating the parents concern for lust, rage, grief/panic and fear. This would be unlikely to convert the parents outright, but it would allow them to acknowledge the pioneering spirit to the son/daughter's motive. Having difficult religious conversations is not about convincing someone to change their mind, but rather understanding a viable alternative is required to replace the vacuum created when reality empties it. Ironically, this is precisely what religions have been doing for a millenium when people evolved a brain capable of self awareness, began to ask questions about themselves and did not yet have answers.
I think that I can envisage having a similar conversation with my parents if they decided to raise the issue, but it probably wouldn't go well if I were to initiate the conversation (although perhaps Mum would engage, as long as Dad wasn't in earshot). I can more easily envisage having this conversation with believing siblings and friends. Definitely very helpful!
Now that I'm past the main role play, I imagine that if Anthony knew the ins and outs of the Mormon world view he may have been able to pick up on different claims to do SE with, more subtle yet central claims. Knowing the web of connections and the layers of defense, I would've focused on the claim "spiritual knowledge requires spiritual methods". In an earlier part, Anthony talked about how if someone's thinking is relativistic that he has to start with a discussion on the nature of truth. Even though Mormons believe in absolute truth, they believe only certain truths can be known using certain methods and never shall one method be able to inform the domain of another.
I'm impressed by John's acting chops. At least playing this particular character, (an extremely concerned TBM father), I believe you are that father. 👏 Anthony always knows just what to say; much better than I'd come up with.
Thomas Monson is the Prophet? What kind of devout Mormon is Carol anyway? Yes honey, take your pills...Take ALL of them. Apparently your brain stopped functioning 3 years ago!
30:00 - Dad should have said, "When you feel the power of the Holy Spirit you know." That's how I think 90% of believers would have answered. 47:55 - Uh oh.
I wanted to have a private conversation with my mother-in-law and It just turned into her big spiel of how important the church was so I let her have The moment to let it all out.
🤎 I attempted to watch Pastor Shawn's debate between RFM & MM, but couldn't watch it all because the negativity it created was painful. This SE thang, waaaaay better.
1:01:39 I don't have enough faith to disbelieve in my preferred, mystical god but I have an overabundance of faith to unequivocally renounce everyone else's mystical god.
These are great skills for all people to learn and consider. That said, SE is also what got Socrates executed. This is a peaceful tactic for creating discussion but it doesn't guarantee your interlocutor will be happy after all is said and done. Just be aware, some people are just mean and vengeful.
This was hard to listen to. I couldn’t help but feel that his method is lying. (No dis to him at all) but how do you say ‘I am open’ when you just are not. I’d love some input. Also..I started listening to MS in the beginning. I blew up everything when I left. I did the best I could. But I wish I had done better and this had been available to me. Well done.
I think I see what you're saying, but if you don't say that you're open going into the conversation, the other side is not going to open up either. We're all stubborn and set in our ways when it comes to these serious subjects, so perhaps the best we can do is say something to the effect of "I can't say for certain that I am open to entertaining opposing viewpoints, but I'll do my best to try".
According to the ex-evangelical preacher Dan Barker, there are two, most successful points of discussion most likely to reform a irrationally religious zealot. The first is by demonstrating how supernatural belief is not required for any person to be a good human being. The other key area to focus on is the demonstrable myth of Bible inerrancy.
Was anyone else super triggered by how accurate they portrayed the mormon parents? Like all my trauma started to resurface. (I’m okay… have good resources and support) But damn, wasn’t prepared for that!
Watching Anthony attempt to navigate the MINEFIELD that is devout believing parents' minds is just agonizing! I hope he feels OK about it all. Regardless, the example has raised some good ideas for me about how to talk with my own believing family.
There are some things that it is impossible to prove, such as “there or no gods.” But that doesn’t justify me believing there is a god. Thus, if a god wants me to believe a god exists, it knows how to do it. I hope for lots of things that are not seen** but which I hope are true or not true. Like a god existing, that doesn’t make me right about what I hope or want for. I have faith (hope) that the Christian god is *not* real because I think it is a moral monster. I hope a better god exists. But I have no proof that better god exists.
I put this on part 3, but I feel I should put this here. I do not think SE is a good practice to be using. Let me first state that I think Anthony is a smart man who thinks he is doing what is right. But I just think the Street epistemology methods are very flawed and not productive in the long run. I believe that street epistemology is just a extreme form of skepticism that based on your questions can make you skeptical no matter what you believe. You can use street epistemology to make an atheist skeptical of thinking there is no god just as easily as you can make a theist skeptical. SE doesn’t lead to any actual truth, it only makes you skeptical of believing in any meaning or philosophy. It really just leads to the nihilistic idea that you really don’t know anything. I can use SE to make you skeptical on the existence of certain historical figures, just by questioning their methods to decide they did. I also believe street epistemology is just a form of debate where you ask specific questions to push someone into a corner. I’ve used street epistemology to make someone skeptical of being pro choice on abortions by asking them questions on them concluding if life has value. I’ve also used the method to make someone who is pro life question their beliefs just as much. I can use street epistemology to make people skeptical on whether anything outside of their consciousness is even real. What Anthony seems to do with SE on religion is use the argument that faith isn’t a way of concluding truth as well as how spiritual feelings can lead to different conclusions, but he’s just using street epistemology to get his argument across. And a side note about his RUclips channel I think Anthony needs to stop interviewing people on college campuses. It’s like when political activists debate college students and win the debate, it’s not a fair discussion when the students just don’t know how to articulate their beliefs very well.
I see no harm in SE if it’s allowing people to have a civil dialogue. Basically most people believe what they “want to” believe because they fear the unknown, but I would say they might be controlled by that. Really if it dictates how you live and treat (judge) others. I ask: “If a belief harms others in any way, would you consider re-examining it, asking yourself why you hold it so tightly, and perhaps be willing to no longer hold that claim, tenet or conviction?”
If someone’s motive is to change someone’s beliefs using SE then you make some good points, but SE can also help someone think why they believe they do. It can be used to keep people more open and less dogmatic. I believe there’s value in understanding it’s possible you could be wrong about some of your beliefs. Not that someone has to stop that belief, but being OPEN to the idea it might not be accurate or correct.
@@provetome1199 I think you could just as easily apply that logic to your fundamental assumptions. Something like "If it harms others in any way" seems like it's programmed into you by our liberal society (liberal in the literal sense, not talking about democrats or whatever) in the same way that a believer's convictions are programmed into them by the church, family, etc.
I don't think it's good to be certain about anything meaningful, or maybe anything at all, and that is Anthony's point about SE. We should all seek truth continuously, but we should never be sure that we've found it.
I love that John gets passionate with Anthony, using strong tones, volume, eye contact, etc, because it puts Anthony on the spot. It's one thing to know the theory and logic of street epistemology, but put it to practice when emotions run high a lot is at stake is an entirely different experience. Thank you both!
Can’t believe this doesn’t have more views. This was such a great video and this is such a valuable tool for approaching these convos since it goes “straight for the jugular” in the nicest sense of that metaphor by scrutinizing the very reason that people hold their beliefs.
This was a very good episode. Originally I didn’t think that the role play was going to be as interesting, helpful, or exploratory, but there was some really useful, interesting, and beneficial knowledge there.
Well done MSP team and Anthony. Great job Carah bringing Anthony to John’s attention.
It kicked in with “son, we taught you better than this…”
Thank you to John and Carah. This is so helpful. The loving and respectful approach Anthony is teaching is powerful for families to strengthen relationships. Thank you for the relationship tools!
Anthony’s responses are so helpful to our family. Thank you! This is a game changer.
Carah’s Mormon mom voice is spot on. 10/10!
This is one of the best series of episodes. Thank you Anthony for sharing your expertise
I'm preparing to have this conversation with my parents this upcoming holiday when I'm home. This was beautiful and impeccably timed. Thank you so much, loved this series.
Also, this seems to be more kind and charitable than just about everything on Midnight Mormons or seemingly any other Mormon/Christian apologists channels.
This was incredible! Thank you all for your dedication to empowering folks with tools to restore their agency.
This example conversation was so helpful and it sounds like a conversation I could have with my TBM son. I anticipate having a similar one with him this holiday time when he comes to visit. I can envision how we will touch on many of the main topics of the church, such as having felt the spirit, having born testimony previously in my life and him worrying about my soul.
I will be using this video as my training course before he comes hone.
Quite possibly the best and most informative series in all of Mormon Stories (and I love LOVE LOVE Mormon Stories). Thanks for the empowering tools and shift in mindset for better conversations - this is sorely needed on both sides of the conversation.
Omg, I know John is role playing and not trying to be funny, but I am dying when I see a straight-faced “this is the worst thing you could say to us 😐” 😂
And how about "You mean Russell Nelson sweetheart" and "You're going to make your mom cry"? John was great. I want to see him role-play like this more often. He nailed that part and could totally do an entire sitcom as that character!
@@mylesmarkson1686 little late to the party, but Carah and John made me laugh so hard a few times I had tears in my eyes. They did an amazing job doing the role play.
@@RockChalk263 Better late than never RockChalk. And I'm still patiently waiting for that sitcom!
This guy is awesome, I watch his SE episodes occasionally.
He must have the patience of Jobe (if there really was such a person of course).
The early discussion about the difference between spiritual knowledge and the scientific-kind of knowledge is such a key aspect of maintaining mormon belief ... or at least it was for me.
Once I noticed that I had divided my mind into two realms, and that I was using a different thinking processes for church things I became uncomfortable. I decided that it was not fully honest to go on that way. And I felt like I had been taught that the "truth" would stand up to examination. ... well that didn't work out so great for my participating in the church.
Once I abandoned the special thinking processes that I had been using for church stuff the belief could not survive. For me having one mind and one standard of evidence was necessary as part of respecting the value of truth (which ironically I got that standard from the church), and having a single standard has made maintaining mormon beliefs impossible for me.
OMH two missionaries just showed up at my downtown Salt Lake CIty door - and I had a terrific SE style conversation with them! The one thing I didn't do was the informed consent piece, they just launched in and so I started asking questions. In years past I would have just said I wasn't interested - or told them I was an atheist to scare them. By the time I got to my 0.5% confidence that there is a god/s, they didn't seem to shocked - of course they wanted to tell me their beliefs, I just kept asking if praying and the holy spirit was reliable. By the time they left we had gotten to the Big Bang Theory and evidence for evolution lol. And I sincerely wished them good luck and good health on the rest of their missions. Thank you so much Mormon Stories team and Anthony.
Excellent! We’re finding (in the development of the SE course) that there are factors to consider when decidong to what degree one moght want to obtain informed consent. If you approach someone to have an SE type talk, then the duty for informed consent may be higher than if someone approaches you. Food for thought. Thanks for taking the time to engage with others with this style and sharing your experience here with us.
Anthony I’m a very big fan of you and your approach to SE ! Although it’s difficult with family and loved ones I feel this formula is 10 times better than debates 👍🏼
1:26:55 Excellent idea having the different communities meet!!!
😆 this is the x-mo version of the commitment pattern from my mission. Personally I will never challenge my parents on this but conversely they never tried to cast me out because I may not be living up to their expectations of whatever. I feel for people that have to deal with this in a much more severe way.
This may be silly, but your (John and Cara) portrayal as the Mormon parents literally made me cry in the car. I think this is exactly what my parents would say. It also made me feel like having this conversation is pointless unless they initiate it. But the technique would be very useful should they initiate this conversation. Bottom line, no point in me forcing this conversation if my folks want to keep up the don’t ask don’t tell policy.
❤️❤️❤️
I’ve had these conversations. They are fruitless and painful and usually lead to bad feelings and hurt relationships. My advice is create boundaries and then don’t talk about it
@@grantbeck9228 I completely agree, but this fact makes me very sad. It feels like you have two choices. Choice 1 (the one I am currently going with) is to have an arms length, inauthentic relationship with my parents. One in which they really don't ever know who I truly am. Choice two is to have an honest conversation, which results in them believing that I have been deceived by satan, where my dad gets angry and my mom ends up sad and spends her evenings praying for me to find my way back. Neither of these choices are good.
This was hard to listen to at times, but I was also laughing out loud in a couple of spots. Carah and John were BRILLIANT as the parents! This should probably come with a trigger warning 🤣I agree with a lot of the commenters that it would be extremely unusual for something this reasonable sounding to actually happen. Anthony's approach and his ability to stay in the process is something to aspire to.
My sister and brother had screaming matches with my parents but my conversation was calm and lasted for hours... I had no clue about the SE approach but honestly I had a cordial conversation using some of these same points. I think it's important to lean SE. Thank you John for doing thes episodes.
This was a great video. Tks guys. ✌🏼❤️
I have really loved this SE week on mormon stories.
You know what would be great? ... seeing an SE conversation where the person has a solid claim with good reasons for believing it and seeing what an SE examination of that looks like.
For instance a claim like "I believe the earth is round" or "I believe that hand washing reduces the spread of disease" ... are there conversations like that that we could see?
Hm... My guess is over abundance of peer reviewed scientific agreement vs. disagreement on the subject. Like a flat earth group invested into a laser setup over a distance to prove the earth isn't curved and couldn't prove it. That made it hard for them to explain their own findings. Scientific findings are rigorously validated my multiple researchers doing validation studies. At least in physics, medicine, etc. Fields like psychology have theories that get less validation, say the polyvagal theory that for some 25+ years hasn't gotten much study besides Stephen Porges himself.
Claims that appear to be well-backed by testable and repeatable means seem to be more challenging to apply SE on. Perhaps someone who disagrees with one of those examples could learn SE and role-play or actually explore it using this approach. These subjects are often covered in the SE discord servers.
So good! John and Carah were so good. I was nervous for Anthony even though I knew it was just roleplay.
Really enjoyed these episodes. So excited to see how you guys build SE using this channel and thank you to everyone donating to the cause!
"Our knees are worn thin" 🤣🤣 that one got me good, goin for the Oscar there john!
😂😂😂
Loved watching Anthony double team his parents in a role play scenario. Jokes aside, this was a very informative series and very helpful for me as somebody in faith transition.
Best tip: when they say “how many times has science been wrong” you just say “sure” and let it go 😂
I really appreciate Adam's First Do No Harm approach . Very Respectful in this Pursuit of Real Truth .
David and Carol are exemplary Mormon parents.
Probably my favorite line from this video... "I think what this is coming down to is that you think you have really good reasons. And when I look at your reasons for thinking that its true, I don't find them as very good reasons. That's all thats happening here. I'm not angry with you. I'm not angry with God, or anything like that.... I think it just comes down to the quality of the reasons that you're giving and that have been given to me for thinking that its true, and I just don't find them sufficient. I'm sorry that it hurts you. I don't want to hurt you."
I LOVE THIS!!!
I would very much love to be part of the army of street epistomologists. I live in Davis County Utah and I am a USU alum of the School Psychology Program and NCSP. This approach speaks to me and I really love how it works and what it is meant to do. I fear, however, that I am not in a good chapter of my life to do this on the street. But if there is a role I can do at home on a flexible basis, (currently stay at home mom of 3 littles), I would love to chat about it!
As a recent non-literal believer, this is very helpful to me in opening up conversations with my husband and other family members.
Thank you I had a good heart-to-heart talk with my husband tonight because of this podcast.
“I need to take my pills” had me laughing out loud in the shower, Carah is a riot 😂🤘🏻
I am saving this, formulating an open letter point by point. You are correct that my Mormon family would never refrain from emotional manipulation and blackmail of my eternal soul. You are spot on.
I have had these conversations with my parents and grandparentsarents. This was very close to home!
It was so entertaining hearing the same arguments and seeing how I could have addressed things differently. I have read Peter Boghosian's book, but i have a hard time not turning to the facts, which I know doesn't work in conversation witb most people. It was fun to see how Anthony navigated around those without bringing facts into play and keeping the conversation open.
Thanks for the content!
I feel like Anthony's approach is currently changing my brain. It's been building through these five videos on Mormon Stories. I keep wondering what underlying beliefs might be influencing my emotions and how I react to others' words and behaviors. Thank you so much for this series. I am very thankful for Mormon Stories!!! ❤️❤️❤️
Carah …I haven’t belly laughed in a while! “I’ll go take my pills”😂😂😂…oh man..love you🤍
I enjoyed this video. I think using this with Bishops who will then report back to the parents who are more apt to let the bishop talk for way longer than they would allow their child to speak, is a good idea. Parents aren’t emotionally charged up with the bishop like they are with their kids, they tend to treat the bishop with more respect than an apostate offspring. Of course bishop roulette will yield vastly different experiences, but for most LDS parents SE with the bishop first instead may be a better choice.
I felt so hard for Anthony in this situation, especially when he asked in the last 30 minutes “what was so bad about my questions and my reasoning?” Or something like that. I think he probably expects that a person’s parents would allow and support them to be their own person and live by their own conscience. My experience in Mormonism is that you must obey your parents and obey the prophet. I wasn’t given (still not) the respect to believe how I want to believe. I am a disappointment. I have “gone off the deep end.” And my reasoning will never be seen as valid unless my family chooses to change their mindset about me.
I also would add, I don’t think it’s fair to say that Exmormons acting out in complete desperation to be heard is a total failure on their part. I find it to be impossible to get through to most members of the church. It’s exasperating that our existence is so invalidated. What other healthy relationship exists where a person is asked to console their abuser while telling them they were hurt? I can’t think of one. I am tired of the Mormon Fragility and I personally seek to make more Mormons uncomfortable and to learn to respect other ways of life.
I feel almost exactly the same way about my relationship to my parents.
I just get accused of wanting to excuse my sinful life and re-write history. I’m never a real adult with a valid opinion. And I’m 42 years old!
@@amandalunt4325 I acted out in very hurtful ways too. I regret having hurt my parents but I don’t know how I would have done anything differently. It just sucks. It always will. But I love you Amanda. You are awesome. You are welcome in my home anytime.
Oh. I need to go take my pills. LOL 🤣🤣🤣
This is so good (and funny). And I am so happy to have learned about street epistemology! Really helpful.
Great collaboration
I Love Shawn's Deep Dive Humanity in His Seeking Real Truth
Is Anthony available for hire to talk to my parents?
I think he'd be up for it if you served him his favorite sandwich...Turkey on wheat with no sauces or veggies.
Hey guys, this was a great video and I loved how John and Carah really internalized the role of the "mormon parents". As a way to avoid talking to parents directly though, I don't think the suggestion Carah made about sending the video to your parents would ever really work because if they are closed to a direct 10 minute discussion with their kid, it's very doubtful that they would even begin listening to an hour and a half long video that discusses why what they believe is wrong. I can't even get my own dad to watch a short 10 minute video going over the basics of evolution so an 1.5hr+ video would be completely out of the question.
I'm glad they mentioned at the end that when they were acting as Mormon parents they held back on the emotional abuse.
Still it would have been fun to see Anthony try to use SE against constant accusations of being an alcoholic, a failure, a disappointment, just going through a phase, just wanting to hurt us, not accomplishing what we did at your age, just trying to destroy our family, etc.
I am amazed how similar the answers “mom” and “dad” give are to my own religion. That shows my religion is not that unique…
Man, this is such a fascinating topic. What does everyone think about doing SE with people who have had supernatural experiences such as seeing angels, having dreams that came true, or experiencing crazy coincidences. Those are some of the things that keep my mind open to the possibility of the supernatural. I haven't personally experienced those things but I doubt that everyone who professes to have had them is lying.
I doubt everyone thinks that these people are all lying. But there are very different and more reliable methods to find out what is happening than attributing this to the supernatural.
We are animals that see patterns ... even if something is completely random. e.g. a rock formation might look like a face from an angle... but it isn't one... after investigating we know it's just rock and it looks very different from another angle while a face with the same angle change normally would still look like a face and can do face things ( ;) ) which the rock doesn't do.
Same goes for experiences that can be reproduced by stimulating certain parts of the brain- which would make much more sense to have the brain temporarily malfunctioning/working differently than actually having a vision... like an aura during a migraine. And so on...
(I personally during a migraines saw something whose shape looked like the 90° angled eye of sauron ... around which was a rainbow halo and the inside was bright and distorted light --- a bit like a portal from a scifi show. As soon as the migraine stopped which wasn't painful btw... my vision went back to normal. But I had read about malfunctioning brains before and therefore had no reason to assume a supernatural event. Also once I identified the reasons for the migraines, my docs ruling out a stroke or other neurological conditions, and was able to stop them and it never happened again.)
As far as I know thorough investigation of supernatural things so far either yielded a very different explanation than supernatural or a 'we don't know' (which all to often then turned into good scientific explanation).
But it is entirely possible for the brain to function in a way that some people leap to supernatural explanations about the information they process with that organ.
I mean it is an organ... and just like the liver or kidney this organ doesn't always work 100% either.
But if those people can prove a supernatural occurrence beyond reasonable doubt they can certainly try to do that... maybe one day they'll succeed.
As a someone who was raised by a critical thinking father and a mother who thought beliefs were too personal to share with others, I did not have the need for talks like this with them.
However, if I was to put myself to the question(s) posed to Anthony concerning the motive behind critical evaluation of the faith, I would perhaps use the analogy of wanting to rough camp versus 'glamping' in an RV in this life. The former is more uncomfortable, riskier and inconvenient, but it allows me to sleep closer to reality than the latter.
While I understand it is somewhat passive/aggressive in nature, it would spark the admirable emotions of care, seeking, and even play, while still positively ameliorating the parents concern for lust, rage, grief/panic and fear. This would be unlikely to convert the parents outright, but it would allow them to acknowledge the pioneering spirit to the son/daughter's motive.
Having difficult religious conversations is not about convincing someone to change their mind, but rather understanding a viable alternative is required to replace the vacuum created when reality empties it. Ironically, this is precisely what religions have been doing for a millenium when people evolved a brain capable of self awareness, began to ask questions about themselves and did not yet have answers.
I think that I can envisage having a similar conversation with my parents if they decided to raise the issue, but it probably wouldn't go well if I were to initiate the conversation (although perhaps Mum would engage, as long as Dad wasn't in earshot). I can more easily envisage having this conversation with believing siblings and friends. Definitely very helpful!
Now that I'm past the main role play, I imagine that if Anthony knew the ins and outs of the Mormon world view he may have been able to pick up on different claims to do SE with, more subtle yet central claims. Knowing the web of connections and the layers of defense, I would've focused on the claim "spiritual knowledge requires spiritual methods". In an earlier part, Anthony talked about how if someone's thinking is relativistic that he has to start with a discussion on the nature of truth. Even though Mormons believe in absolute truth, they believe only certain truths can be known using certain methods and never shall one method be able to inform the domain of another.
I'm impressed by John's acting chops. At least playing this particular character, (an extremely concerned TBM father), I believe you are that father. 👏 Anthony always knows just what to say; much better than I'd come up with.
1:01:14
The magnanimous Magnabosco delivers a knockout punch.
Oh…I need to go take my pills 😂
Thomas Monson is the Prophet? What kind of devout Mormon is Carol anyway? Yes honey, take your pills...Take ALL of them. Apparently your brain stopped functioning 3 years ago!
30:00 - Dad should have said, "When you feel the power of the Holy Spirit you know."
That's how I think 90% of believers would have answered.
47:55 - Uh oh.
I wanted to have a private conversation with my mother-in-law and It just turned into her big spiel of how important the church was so I let her have The moment to let it all out.
🤎 I attempted to watch Pastor Shawn's debate between RFM & MM, but couldn't watch it all because the negativity it created was painful. This SE thang, waaaaay better.
59:38
As the early Jesuits wrote, "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man."
1:01:39
I don't have enough faith to disbelieve in my preferred, mystical god but I have an overabundance of faith to unequivocally renounce everyone else's mystical god.
These are great skills for all people to learn and consider. That said, SE is also what got Socrates executed. This is a peaceful tactic for creating discussion but it doesn't guarantee your interlocutor will be happy after all is said and done. Just be aware, some people are just mean and vengeful.
This was hard to listen to. I couldn’t help but feel that his method is lying. (No dis to him at all) but how do you say ‘I am open’ when you just are not. I’d love some input. Also..I started listening to MS in the beginning. I blew up everything when I left. I did the best I could. But I wish I had done better and this had been available to me. Well done.
I think I see what you're saying, but if you don't say that you're open going into the conversation, the other side is not going to open up either. We're all stubborn and set in our ways when it comes to these serious subjects, so perhaps the best we can do is say something to the effect of "I can't say for certain that I am open to entertaining opposing viewpoints, but I'll do my best to try".
According to the ex-evangelical preacher Dan Barker, there are two, most successful points of discussion most likely to reform a irrationally religious zealot. The first is by demonstrating how supernatural belief is not required for any person to be a good human being. The other key area to focus on is the demonstrable myth of Bible inerrancy.
Was anyone else super triggered by how accurate they portrayed the mormon parents? Like all my trauma started to resurface. (I’m okay… have good resources and support) But damn, wasn’t prepared for that!
At what point do you just not give people an explanation? I’m getting to old to explain myself
Watching Anthony attempt to navigate the MINEFIELD that is devout believing parents' minds is just agonizing! I hope he feels OK about it all. Regardless, the example has raised some good ideas for me about how to talk with my own believing family.
There are some things that it is impossible to prove, such as “there or no gods.” But that doesn’t justify me believing there is a god. Thus, if a god wants me to believe a god exists, it knows how to do it.
I hope for lots of things that are not seen** but which I hope are true or not true. Like a god existing, that doesn’t make me right about what I hope or want for.
I have faith (hope) that the Christian god is *not* real because I think it is a moral monster. I hope a better god exists. But I have no proof that better god exists.
I was convinced Mormonism is true. Not really, but the acting was so good, you could be conmen and women, and almost convince me 🙂.
These religious people are nuts……..
I put this on part 3, but I feel I should put this here. I do not think SE is a good practice to be using. Let me first state that I think Anthony is a smart man who thinks he is doing what is right. But I just think the Street epistemology methods are very flawed and not productive in the long run.
I believe that street epistemology is just a extreme form of skepticism that based on your questions can make you skeptical no matter what you believe. You can use street epistemology to make an atheist skeptical of thinking there is no god just as easily as you can make a theist skeptical. SE doesn’t lead to any actual truth, it only makes you skeptical of believing in any meaning or philosophy. It really just leads to the nihilistic idea that you really don’t know anything. I can use SE to make you skeptical on the existence of certain historical figures, just by questioning their methods to decide they did. I also believe street epistemology is just a form of debate where you ask specific questions to push someone into a corner. I’ve used street epistemology to make someone skeptical of being pro choice on abortions by asking them questions on them concluding if life has value. I’ve also used the method to make someone who is pro life question their beliefs just as much. I can use street epistemology to make people skeptical on whether anything outside of their consciousness is even real. What Anthony seems to do with SE on religion is use the argument that faith isn’t a way of concluding truth as well as how spiritual feelings can lead to different conclusions, but he’s just using street epistemology to get his argument across. And a side note about his RUclips channel I think Anthony needs to stop interviewing people on college campuses. It’s like when political activists debate college students and win the debate, it’s not a fair discussion when the students just don’t know how to articulate their beliefs very well.
I see no harm in SE if it’s allowing people to have a civil dialogue. Basically most people believe what they “want to” believe because they fear the unknown, but I would say they might be controlled by that. Really if it dictates how you live and treat (judge) others. I ask: “If a belief harms others in any way, would you consider re-examining it, asking yourself why you hold it so tightly, and perhaps be willing to no longer hold that claim, tenet or conviction?”
If someone’s motive is to change someone’s beliefs using SE then you make some good points, but SE can also help someone think why they believe they do. It can be used to keep people more open and less dogmatic. I believe there’s value in understanding it’s possible you could be wrong about some of your beliefs. Not that someone has to stop that belief, but being OPEN to the idea it might not be accurate or correct.
@@provetome1199 I think you could just as easily apply that logic to your fundamental assumptions. Something like "If it harms others in any way" seems like it's programmed into you by our liberal society (liberal in the literal sense, not talking about democrats or whatever) in the same way that a believer's convictions are programmed into them by the church, family, etc.
@@nathanbigler that’s what I’m saying
I don't think it's good to be certain about anything meaningful, or maybe anything at all, and that is Anthony's point about SE. We should all seek truth continuously, but we should never be sure that we've found it.