Loved this! Really appreciated all of Barbara's work on Vengeance is Mine. It was so interesting to have her and Darren on to fill in the real history that the TV show was based on. I struggle a bit with historical fiction, I agree that the real history was much more interesting and tragic.
I know Darren Parry has good intentions. However, I am related to a leader in Franklin next to The Bear River Massacre. He left a journal and his name was Lorenzo Hill Hatch. After reading this and several other sources, Brigham Young and The Franklin residents had everything to do with The Bear River Massacre. Porter Rockwell led the soldiers to the massacre site. Several LDS/Mormon people in Franklin helped the soldiers.
I watched 15 minutes of the series, and the violence just sucked all desire to sit through it out of me. I've read most of the books about MMM. God bless Juanita Brooks for her groundbreaking research.
It was great to see Darren (sorry if I have the spelling wrong I mean no disrespect). I think it works be great is MS were able to interview more indigenous and Native historians on top gear from there side is what Mormonism did to their people and ancestors ❤
Abish is a historical person in the Book of Mormon (if you believe it) and was the servant of King Lamoni, one of only a few women mentioned in the BoM; the meaning of her name and her bravery in the BoM has similarities to the Abish in American Primeval. My children are descendants of "Wild" Bill Hickman, there are plenty of hero's on their side to outweigh the villains, so they just chuckle about him. Buchanan's politicizing plural marriage was a real threat to the early church and Brigham Young was determined to maintain plural marriage as it was fundamental to the early teachings on priesthood hierarchy and lineage.
I'm a direct descendant of John Doyle Lee. I've always known that, but didn't realize until the last year or so that he's the only one that was executed for his role in it. It's a weird part of one's identity to grapple with the terrible things our ancestors have done.
He is my 4th great-grandfather and I feel the same way. My family always represented him as a good man or didn't discuss him at all. I also didn't realize he was the only one put to death for this. Thanks for sharing your feelings on this. Learning the details really does hit hard.
I am so glad you are doing this video…I watched Primeval and wondered how factual it was. I won’t go into my feelings about the Mormon religion, but was left wondering how factual…..
Wish that SO MUCH of the Netflix series wasn’t so ridiculously violent - easily half the series was violent scenes - so over-the-top and unnecessary. Needed more historical storytelling.
John D. Lee is my 4th great-grandfather but growing up in the church I didn't know about Mountain Meadow Masacure. I knew some about the Lee family but not that detail. Learning about Church history on my way out was eye-opening. I live in Southern Utah and I have driven through Mountain Meadow without even knowing. Now tell me, was this secret or sacred? I know it is not literally a secret but definitely not talked about unless forced to. It makes you sick to realize how much you never knew.
I want to extend my gratitude to Barbara and Darren for their amazing work. I have read Vengeance Is Mine three times and the Bear River Massacre. Let me tell ya. One night a pair of Elders at the Mormon colonies brought with them a copy of a triple combination as we know it. The Elders got the triple from a couple from La Colonia Lebaron. Until that very day as someone who was born and raised in the church near Mexico City, I believed we were the only ones in the whole world as the only Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I had no idea that there were others, let alone Lebarones, who practiced Polygamy. Learning about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in my early 50s and the other massacres against the Timpanogos tribe for me was a shock. It never crossed my mind to even think that earlier members of the church would engage in a massacre or massacres. I learned about Hernan Cortez and Cristobal Colon and their massacres while going to school in Mexico. What are the differences between the massacres that took place in the North and the ones that took place in Mexico? A few weeks ago Ancestry sent me an update of my DNA. 48% of my Native American DNA extends as far as Wyoming. Fascinating!! Muchos Mahalos and Alohas to John D. and his Gang.
John, excellent job! You are so skilled at what you do and I commend you on how you got the best truth out thus far on some of these details. Wonderful.
1:25:45, If I remember right, Olive Oatman's family was killed by Native Americans. One of her brothers was left for dead (and survived) but Olive and her sister were taken. The sister died in captivity and some years later Olive was traded for her freedom. During that time, the brother that survived, was always trying to find help for his sisters that were taken. And he eventually reunited with Olive. Olive was recognizable for having been tattooed while with the Native Americans, the tattoos being on her chin.
That was a very interesting story, I read a book about it a few years back. I think it was called the Blue Tattoo. There is also a tie to Mormonism in that story.
I've heard scalping was introduced during the French and Indian Wars by the British, who trained and paid local mercenaries to do hits and paid by the scalp. Sadly, I do not remember where I heard this or how reputable the source was.
I recently read the book Jim Bridger Trailblazer of the American West by Jerry Enzler and the information from the book indicates that Brigham Young did do some finagling to get Ft Bridger. That Jim Bridger did not want to sell it and even petitioned the government for years for the fort. (FWIW I have not watch the show yet. On my list) You guys are amazing. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge. Love the show.
Hart, Newell. The Bear River Massacre: Being a Complete Source Book and Story Book of the Genocidal Action Against the Shoshones in 1863. Cache Valley Newsletter Publishing Company, 1983.
Great episode! Watched the series; historically inaccurate and unnecessarily violent, but I liked the acting and hope more people talk about MMM. Taylor Kitsch was great. Bill Hickman (BY’s right-hand man in the series) is my 4th great grand-uncle and they portrayed him somewhat accurately in the series, but he was the polar opposite of his brother and my 4th great grandfather, George Hickman. Bill was indeed “wild” and ended up being excommunicated for being a wacko; I believe he was involved with the Danites at one point. He was also violent at times according to family journals and historical accounts. While George was a quiet, kind doctor who regularly treated Native American patients. It’s so strange to see my ancestors portrayed in a Netflix series.
This came off as apologetics. Mormons were involved with the killing at Bear River and there were many massacres in addition to the ones discussed. It felt like they were trying to shift the blame anywhere except Brigham when Brigham was very much a leader that wasn't talked into things or was unaware of them. The Battle Creek Massacre was done before Bear River or the Provo to basically strike fear and set an example. I found the portrayal of the Mormons in the series to be pretty on point. In Bill Hickman's and John D. Lee's books they describe how the Nauvoo Legion/Danites/Daughters of Zion were acting as a military mob group long before they got to Utah - the reason the Saints were run out of so many places had more to do with them robbing and burning the property of their neighbor gentiles, along with printing and distributing counterfeit money and doing shady land deals than it had to do with religious persecution. Brigham didn't leave Nauvoo on the run from the mob...he left quite a while after Joseph and Hyrum were killed because he had been Federally indicted for counterfeiting along with other church members and Apostles, it wasn't because of religious persecution...the portrayal of the Nauvoo Legion seemed pretty historically accurate to me - they acted like mobsters long before they got to Utah and Brigham ruled with an iron fist "using up" anyone that got in his way and frequently used the natives as a scapegoat for murders of apostates, gentiles, or anyone in his way after he got to Utah.
I feel like this was one of the more "apologetic"-feeling episodes I've seen of MS for a long time. One question (among many)....how was Brigham Young NOT a mob boss, given all the history we certainly do know? And despite the extreme liberties taken with the history, anyone who knows most of the historical details about this period would agree the the truth is even more harsh than fiction. Anyway....still LOVE MS. Smash that like button and subscribe!
The Inconvenient Indian by Thomas King is a fascinating look at the depictions of indigenous people of North America and how that has influenced public knowledge of them.
What is the point of any of our fictions when it comes to history? Why perpetrate untruths? Why say Native Americans are Jews and Jesus was here at one time? Why say that dark skin is sign a of a curse from God? Why tell people that men will become gods, and women will not? In which cases should we be scrupulous about the truth?
And yet people love other American Wars’ dramatizations. It would seem the problem is that the Mormons and the Imperialists/Capitalists were clearly the bad guys. As opposed to the British, the Spanish, the Germans (twice), the Japanese, the Vietnamese, the Iraqi, the Afghans …. Heavens… the First Nation Peoples. It goes on and on… so many books and movies.
War movies and westerns are extremely popular fictional representations of actual events. This series seemed to want to offer many perspectives of people experiencing imperialism, an extremist cult bent on creating a theocracy and budding capitalism. (Rape in war. Who can say. It does happen everywhere. And than again every enemy accuses each of that war crime)
I tried to watch this thinking it is history of my family. My third great grandfather was Benjamin Morgan Roberts . There is a family story of his ability to speak several native languages which saved his life. He met his wife in fort bridger. I have wondered if he was at the massacre.
Watching an inaccurate historical movie seems true to most people who assume it is accurate. Southern Baptists will surely recommend this movie to everyone they know.
Growing up in the area, I was taught that this was a battle. I learned that it was a massacre when I went out of my way to learn more about it when I fell away from the church.
Wait are we talking about atrocities of tribes in Utah? Or throughout the US? Because there are many accounts of other tribes committing such atrocities… look up the history of the Comanche and settlers of Texas…
If you're a historian you probably remember who was exploiting who first? Did the Comanches go to London and attack the people living there because they wanted more land? And if we're tallying up "atrocities", are we counting the time Abraham Lincoln ordered 3 dozen Native Americans (including children) to be hung without a trial? Seems trials were optional back then if you have the most guns.
@ Comanches were the top dogs in the region before settlers came- these “atrocities” (brutal torture and killing) if we’re going the morally relativist route- were carried out on other tribes including the Apache, Kiowa, Navajo, and Tonkawa. Ask those tribes how they feel about that history. Everyone has blood on their hands. The tribes were invading each others territory long before Europeans came.
The Indians were conquered. And stop acting like they were moral or weren’t committing atrocities on anyone and everyone they could. If the shoe was on the other foot, people would celebrate the slaughter of whites simply because they’re white. This white guilt and white savior complex are insane on every level. What a great idea, let’s persecute white people as a form of redressing past grievances. What could go wrong?!
I'm going to buy the book for sure. After watching the movie it's very difficult to follow if you do not know the story. Not one of the best films I've ever seen..... It's like you have to sit and guess what part of the show you're watching and where the scenes are located..... Being honest.
One of these days Dr Dehlin will answer his email or Bluesky messages and we could save women from feeling shame. Its not just Dr Dehlin, its many others who ignore messages. How do I use my traumatic experiences to help ppl if no one answers me?
It’s not a documentary, it’s historical fiction. It’s a fictional story, surrounding a historical event. I understand the criticism, but it’s kind of just misplaced, or unnecessary.
Not at all. The errors were ridiculous. You can do historical fiction without having ridiculous and egregious errors. Plus it was uber anti-Mormon….and I usually hate that term. But in this case it actually applies.
Beg to differ. When the inaccuracies are specifically perpetuating harmful propaganda that has a widespread ongoing role in American racism, that is worth noting. Adding a romance, making up a solution to a mystery, consolidating characters or changing their details, using modern humor and fashion, misrepresenting how fast horses travel or smallpox spreads, etc. ... I mean some people like talking about all those details, but whether to do so is a matter of personal interest or taste. I wouldn't say misplaced, but sure, not necessary. Skip it if it doesn't interest you. But representing Christians as baby-eaters (as early non-Christians widely believed), or industrial workers as dirty and stupid, or Indigenous people as habitual torturers---these are lies specifically used to actively justify mistreating people and to make bystanders comfortable with their mistreatment, while obscuring the actual perpetrators. If you wanted to throw in some extra sexual violence into your fiction for ratings or whatever, gross imo, but no surprise. If you represent Nazis as saving disabled babies from Jewish medical experiments, and that's **the literal opposite of the truth,** historians pointing out the misrepresentation is not just interesting, I'd argue it's important. Necessary, even. Especially when, as they did a good job of covering in this episode, lots of viewers/readers do have an actual direct personal connection to the historical events portrayed.
It is no surprise the 5 Civilized tribes and most Native Americans supported the Confederacy. The were respected in the Confederacy and shared a common goal of defending homeland. The Cherokee Declaration of Causes to join the Confederacy perfectly sums this up (from Oct 1861) “Now hear the testimony of an unbiased witness, the red man... The Confederate States sought only to repel invaders from their own soil and to secure the right of governing themselves. They claimed only the privilege asserted by the Declaration of American Independence, and on which the right of the Northern States themselves to self-government is founded, of altering their form of government when it became no longer tolerable and establishing new forms for the security of their liberties.” “Almost as one man all who were able to bear arms rushed to the defense of an invaded country… the Cherokee people saw with alarm a violated Constitution, all civil liberty put in peril, and all the rules of civilized warfare and the dictates of common humanity and decency unhesitatingly disregarded."
Get it right. American Primeval does not portray the Mountain Meadows massacre. Go to google maps for accurate distances: Fort Bridger, WY to Salt Lake City aprox 120 miles. Salt Lake City to Mountain Meadows aprox 270 miles. (Not hundreds and hundreds of miles.) This makes me question the claim that there are a MILLION descendants of the 50+ massacre perpetrators?? That claim seems tremendously inflated.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Loved this! Really appreciated all of Barbara's work on Vengeance is Mine. It was so interesting to have her and Darren on to fill in the real history that the TV show was based on. I struggle a bit with historical fiction, I agree that the real history was much more interesting and tragic.
My goodness, thank you all for doing this. These histories matter and need to be memorialized in all the ways.
According to Utah History Brigham did order the extermination of the Timpanogos Tribe.
Darren is such a great guy and wrote a great book on the massacre. Glad to call him a friend. I wish he spoke more about the Shoshone culture.
I know Darren Parry has good intentions. However, I am related to a leader in Franklin next to The Bear River Massacre. He left a journal and his name was Lorenzo Hill Hatch. After reading this and several other sources, Brigham Young and The Franklin residents had everything to do with The Bear River Massacre. Porter Rockwell led the soldiers to the massacre site. Several LDS/Mormon people in Franklin helped the soldiers.
Wow, so glad I happened to stumble across this episode ‼️ thanks for covering this topic with these two guest speakers. Very interesting ✅
The egg farmer on Napoleon Dynamite said he found Shoshone arrowheads. It was hard to understand it but always stuck in my head!
I've been waiting for this episode.
I watched 15 minutes of the series, and the violence just sucked all desire to sit through it out of me. I've read most of the books about MMM. God bless Juanita Brooks for her groundbreaking research.
Thanks for the episode. And Barbara is a great story teller.
It was great to see Darren (sorry if I have the spelling wrong I mean no disrespect). I think it works be great is MS were able to interview more indigenous and Native historians on top gear from there side is what Mormonism did to their people and ancestors ❤
Loved this episode, like all the rest!
Life was brutal during that time.
So so good. Thank you for the truth. I agree…the truth may set us free!
My 3rd great-grandfather , George McBride, is the man who was reportedly scalped at Ft. Lemhi.
OMG, we write about George McBride in Vengeance is Mine! I did not know that’s your ancestor!
@@BarbaraJonesBrown I've been meaning to get the book. Now I really have to do it!
Darren Parry is a Cache Valley legend! More please!
Abish is a historical person in the Book of Mormon (if you believe it) and was the servant of King Lamoni, one of only a few women mentioned in the BoM; the meaning of her name and her bravery in the BoM has similarities to the Abish in American Primeval. My children are descendants of "Wild" Bill Hickman, there are plenty of hero's on their side to outweigh the villains, so they just chuckle about him. Buchanan's politicizing plural marriage was a real threat to the early church and Brigham Young was determined to maintain plural marriage as it was fundamental to the early teachings on priesthood hierarchy and lineage.
I'm a direct descendant of John Doyle Lee. I've always known that, but didn't realize until the last year or so that he's the only one that was executed for his role in it. It's a weird part of one's identity to grapple with the terrible things our ancestors have done.
He is my 4th great-grandfather and I feel the same way. My family always represented him as a good man or didn't discuss him at all. I also didn't realize he was the only one put to death for this. Thanks for sharing your feelings on this. Learning the details really does hit hard.
It's about time someone started talking about the bear river massacre.
YES! Darren and his people have always been talking about it-it’s high time for the rest of us to listen!
I am so glad you are doing this video…I watched Primeval and wondered how factual it was. I won’t go into my feelings about the Mormon religion, but was left wondering how factual…..
Wish that SO MUCH of the Netflix series wasn’t so ridiculously violent - easily half the series was violent scenes - so over-the-top and unnecessary. Needed more historical storytelling.
I agree. That’s why I hesitate to watch.
Just started the Netflix series last night. Absolutely brutal!
John D. Lee is my 4th great-grandfather but growing up in the church I didn't know about Mountain Meadow Masacure. I knew some about the Lee family but not that detail.
Learning about Church history on my way out was eye-opening. I live in Southern Utah and I have driven through Mountain Meadow without even knowing. Now tell me, was this secret or sacred? I know it is not literally a secret but definitely not talked about unless forced to. It makes you sick to realize how much you never knew.
The only nod to Olive Oatman is the way Abish is painted for war. It is reminiscient of Olive’s face markings around her mouth.
I want to extend my gratitude to Barbara and Darren for their amazing work. I have read Vengeance Is Mine three times and the Bear River Massacre. Let me tell ya.
One night a pair of Elders at the Mormon colonies brought with them a copy of a triple combination as we know it. The Elders got the triple from a couple from La Colonia Lebaron. Until that very day as someone who was born and raised in the church near Mexico City, I believed we were the only ones in the whole world as the only Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I had no idea that there were others,
let alone Lebarones, who practiced Polygamy.
Learning about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in my early 50s and the other massacres against the Timpanogos tribe for me was a shock. It never crossed my mind to even think that earlier members of the church would engage in a massacre or massacres. I learned about Hernan Cortez and Cristobal Colon and their massacres while going to school in Mexico. What are the differences between the massacres that took place in the North and the ones that took place in Mexico?
A few weeks ago Ancestry sent me an update of my DNA.
48% of my Native American DNA extends as far as Wyoming.
Fascinating!!
Muchos Mahalos and Alohas to John D. and his Gang.
John, excellent job! You are so skilled at what you do and I commend you on how you got the best truth out thus far on some of these details. Wonderful.
Wow, thank you!
1:25:45, If I remember right, Olive Oatman's family was killed by Native Americans. One of her brothers was left for dead (and survived) but Olive and her sister were taken. The sister died in captivity and some years later Olive was traded for her freedom. During that time, the brother that survived, was always trying to find help for his sisters that were taken. And he eventually reunited with Olive. Olive was recognizable for having been tattooed while with the Native Americans, the tattoos being on her chin.
That was a very interesting story, I read a book about it a few years back. I think it was called the Blue Tattoo. There is also a tie to Mormonism in that story.
Barbara's book is AMAZING
I've heard scalping was introduced during the French and Indian Wars by the British, who trained and paid local mercenaries to do hits and paid by the scalp. Sadly, I do not remember where I heard this or how reputable the source was.
I recently read the book Jim Bridger Trailblazer of the American West by Jerry Enzler and the information from the book indicates that Brigham Young did do some finagling to get Ft Bridger. That Jim Bridger did not want to sell it and even petitioned the government for years for the fort. (FWIW I have not watch the show yet. On my list)
You guys are amazing. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge. Love the show.
I do like this review to get the correct time line and more accurate instances.
Hart, Newell. The Bear River Massacre: Being a Complete Source Book and Story Book of the Genocidal Action Against the Shoshones in 1863. Cache Valley Newsletter Publishing Company, 1983.
Great episode! Watched the series; historically inaccurate and unnecessarily violent, but I liked the acting and hope more people talk about MMM. Taylor Kitsch was great. Bill Hickman (BY’s right-hand man in the series) is my 4th great grand-uncle and they portrayed him somewhat accurately in the series, but he was the polar opposite of his brother and my 4th great grandfather, George Hickman. Bill was indeed “wild” and ended up being excommunicated for being a wacko; I believe he was involved with the Danites at one point. He was also violent at times according to family journals and historical accounts. While George was a quiet, kind doctor who regularly treated Native American patients. It’s so strange to see my ancestors portrayed in a Netflix series.
This came off as apologetics. Mormons were involved with the killing at Bear River and there were many massacres in addition to the ones discussed. It felt like they were trying to shift the blame anywhere except Brigham when Brigham was very much a leader that wasn't talked into things or was unaware of them. The Battle Creek Massacre was done before Bear River or the Provo to basically strike fear and set an example. I found the portrayal of the Mormons in the series to be pretty on point. In Bill Hickman's and John D. Lee's books they describe how the Nauvoo Legion/Danites/Daughters of Zion were acting as a military mob group long before they got to Utah - the reason the Saints were run out of so many places had more to do with them robbing and burning the property of their neighbor gentiles, along with printing and distributing counterfeit money and doing shady land deals than it had to do with religious persecution. Brigham didn't leave Nauvoo on the run from the mob...he left quite a while after Joseph and Hyrum were killed because he had been Federally indicted for counterfeiting along with other church members and Apostles, it wasn't because of religious persecution...the portrayal of the Nauvoo Legion seemed pretty historically accurate to me - they acted like mobsters long before they got to Utah and Brigham ruled with an iron fist "using up" anyone that got in his way and frequently used the natives as a scapegoat for murders of apostates, gentiles, or anyone in his way after he got to Utah.
It was an excellent series. I enjoyed it very much
I feel like this was one of the more "apologetic"-feeling episodes I've seen of MS for a long time. One question (among many)....how was Brigham Young NOT a mob boss, given all the history we certainly do know? And despite the extreme liberties taken with the history, anyone who knows most of the historical details about this period would agree the the truth is even more harsh than fiction. Anyway....still LOVE MS. Smash that like button and subscribe!
I watched the show and knew it was not historically correct. I had to google what was truth. I did find it interesting.
The monument of the event is off IH15 between Cedar City and St. George.
The Inconvenient Indian by Thomas King is a fascinating look at the depictions of indigenous people of North America and how that has influenced public knowledge of them.
What is the point of historical fiction when the history is so wrong.
Amen.
What is the point of any of our fictions when it comes to history? Why perpetrate untruths? Why say Native Americans are Jews and Jesus was here at one time? Why say that dark skin is sign a of a curse from God? Why tell people that men will become gods, and women will not? In which cases should we be scrupulous about the truth?
@jaymesc1018 Entertainment is the purpose, though to that point, it would be cool if there was more history in it.
And yet people love other American Wars’ dramatizations. It would seem the problem is that the Mormons and the Imperialists/Capitalists were clearly the bad guys. As opposed to the British, the Spanish, the Germans (twice), the Japanese, the Vietnamese, the Iraqi, the Afghans …. Heavens… the First Nation Peoples. It goes on and on… so many books and movies.
War movies and westerns are extremely popular fictional representations of actual events. This series seemed to want to offer many perspectives of people experiencing imperialism, an extremist cult bent on creating a theocracy and budding capitalism. (Rape in war. Who can say. It does happen everywhere. And than again every enemy accuses each of that war crime)
Another interesting character of this era is my great great grandfather Joab Powell of Oregon.
Darren Perry!? So excited for this one 👏🏻👏🏻
Are Barbara and Darren still in LDS?
I tried to watch this thinking it is history of my family. My third great grandfather was Benjamin Morgan Roberts . There is a family story of his ability to speak several native languages which saved his life. He met his wife in fort bridger. I have wondered if he was at the massacre.
Please show graphics for more than a few seconds. Why not let us read and understand?
Watching an inaccurate historical movie seems true to most people who assume it is accurate. Southern Baptists will surely recommend this movie to everyone they know.
Growing up in the area, I was taught that this was a battle. I learned that it was a massacre when I went out of my way to learn more about it when I fell away from the church.
I feel like this series, perpetuates more ignorance by getting the timline wrong. Couldn't they at least had an accurate timeline?
Franklin Idaho? I too have ancestors who were early settlers in Franklin. I bet we’re related, John - 3rd or 4th cousins.
Wait are we talking about atrocities of tribes in Utah? Or throughout the US? Because there are many accounts of other tribes committing such atrocities… look up the history of the Comanche and settlers of Texas…
If you're a historian you probably remember who was exploiting who first? Did the Comanches go to London and attack the people living there because they wanted more land? And if we're tallying up "atrocities", are we counting the time Abraham Lincoln ordered 3 dozen Native Americans (including children) to be hung without a trial? Seems trials were optional back then if you have the most guns.
@ Comanches were the top dogs in the region before settlers came- these “atrocities” (brutal torture and killing) if we’re going the morally relativist route- were carried out on other tribes including the Apache, Kiowa, Navajo, and Tonkawa. Ask those tribes how they feel about that history. Everyone has blood on their hands. The tribes were invading each others territory long before Europeans came.
The Indians were conquered. And stop acting like they were moral or weren’t committing atrocities on anyone and everyone they could. If the shoe was on the other foot, people would celebrate the slaughter of whites simply because they’re white.
This white guilt and white savior complex are insane on every level. What a great idea, let’s persecute white people as a form of redressing past grievances. What could go wrong?!
@@zmb5126 And Hamas, don't forget them. They started it all, America has a right to defend itself.
I'm going to buy the book for sure. After watching the movie it's very difficult to follow if you do not know the story. Not one of the best films I've ever seen..... It's like you have to sit and guess what part of the show you're watching and where the scenes are located..... Being honest.
Did Brigham Young play a similar role as instigator that Donald Trump played on January 6th?
Movie makes me sick!
One of these days Dr Dehlin will answer his email or Bluesky messages and we could save women from feeling shame. Its not just Dr Dehlin, its many others who ignore messages. How do I use my traumatic experiences to help ppl if no one answers me?
Because they control the narrative.
Ummm… start your own RUclips channel? Nobody is entitled to a platform on someone else’s channel. However noble your cause
@@grantbeck9228 He actually asked me to email him awhile ago
Watched doesn't paint mormons in a good light. Loved it fiction drama and taken away from history.
Just finished watching the series. Oy! Brutal! So, let's talk. 😜
Who are you talking about? Nepotism babies, we are racking our brains.
It’s not a documentary, it’s historical fiction. It’s a fictional story, surrounding a historical event. I understand the criticism, but it’s kind of just misplaced, or unnecessary.
Not at all. The errors were ridiculous. You can do historical fiction without having ridiculous and egregious errors. Plus it was uber anti-Mormon….and I usually hate that term. But in this case it actually applies.
Fair, but can’t that be said about almost any Historical fiction? I do agree with the bottom line that more historical accuracy would’ve been nice.
Beg to differ. When the inaccuracies are specifically perpetuating harmful propaganda that has a widespread ongoing role in American racism, that is worth noting.
Adding a romance, making up a solution to a mystery, consolidating characters or changing their details, using modern humor and fashion, misrepresenting how fast horses travel or smallpox spreads, etc. ... I mean some people like talking about all those details, but whether to do so is a matter of personal interest or taste. I wouldn't say misplaced, but sure, not necessary. Skip it if it doesn't interest you.
But representing Christians as baby-eaters (as early non-Christians widely believed), or industrial workers as dirty and stupid, or Indigenous people as habitual torturers---these are lies specifically used to actively justify mistreating people and to make bystanders comfortable with their mistreatment, while obscuring the actual perpetrators.
If you wanted to throw in some extra sexual violence into your fiction for ratings or whatever, gross imo, but no surprise. If you represent Nazis as saving disabled babies from Jewish medical experiments, and that's **the literal opposite of the truth,** historians pointing out the misrepresentation is not just interesting, I'd argue it's important. Necessary, even.
Especially when, as they did a good job of covering in this episode, lots of viewers/readers do have an actual direct personal connection to the historical events portrayed.
It is no surprise the 5 Civilized tribes and most Native Americans supported the Confederacy. The were respected in the Confederacy and shared a common goal of defending homeland. The Cherokee Declaration of Causes to join the Confederacy perfectly sums this up (from Oct 1861)
“Now hear the testimony of an unbiased witness, the red man... The Confederate States sought only to repel invaders from their own soil and to secure the right of governing themselves. They claimed only the privilege asserted by the Declaration of American Independence, and on which the right of the Northern States themselves to self-government is founded, of altering their form of government when it became no longer tolerable and establishing new forms for the security of their liberties.”
“Almost as one man all who were able to bear arms rushed to the defense of an invaded country… the Cherokee people saw with alarm a violated Constitution, all civil liberty put in peril, and all the rules of civilized warfare and the dictates of common humanity and decency unhesitatingly disregarded."
Get it right. American Primeval does not portray the Mountain Meadows massacre. Go to google maps for accurate distances: Fort Bridger, WY to Salt Lake City aprox 120 miles. Salt Lake City to Mountain Meadows aprox 270 miles. (Not hundreds and hundreds of miles.) This makes me question the claim that there are a MILLION descendants of the 50+ massacre perpetrators?? That claim seems tremendously inflated.
I’m not sure I agree with American Primeval not portraying the MMM. It was in the first episode.