Roger worried that they may be losing listeners when he starts off talking about the 16 strategies and I'm over here thinking that I could listen to this discussion for hours and hours. John is right that what people love about this podcast is how John allows the conversation to be given as many hours as the guest needs. Thank you Roger and John.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
@Ben Larsen Well, "just like the Church" (quotes mine, for emphasis only), Hendrix has re-branded himself! AND, specifically, he is "marketing that new brand, of himself". LIKE the Church (Leaders), he "cares what people think about him": otherwise, he wouldn't be so "measured in what he says". Now all Hendrix has to do is adopt Dallin Harris Oaks' "delivery", and the "transformation" will be complete: "style over substance'".... and then Roger and Dallin will BOTH be P-R giants, in their respective spheres of action!
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
@2:00:00 Thank you Roger Hendrix for your thoughts and insight. I think John Dehlin makes a good point that the church is rewriting its history of philanthropy. The church can attempt to claim it sends volunteers/missionaries, but the sacrifices of the individuals paying 400/500$ a month is a dishonest appropriation of their contribution since the money spent does not go to humanitarian efforts.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
I’m convinced a significant number of Mormons are “secular Mormons.” I’ve counseled 100s of LDS with doubts, and so many say, I don’t believe it anymore but “it’s the best thing out there for my family.” Or I “like the culture, community, fellowship but don’t really believe this stuff.” It’s amazing to hear someone at his status to confess that. I imagine there are GA’s who are secular Mormons
I feel that way about the Adventist church. I feel identified with the culture, love the community, fellowship, and the lifestyle but don’t believe in the doctrines (at least not literally-factually). It’s a tough position to be in. To not fully fit in in any one space.
Absolutely, particularly true in Utah. There's a lot of peer and social pressure to at least pretend to be TBM. Mostly they don't want to upset their family of oirigin. nor do they wish to rock the boat in a marriage not built on love or.trust, but keeping up appearances and using their temple recommend as a virtue signal so they get a due pass.
NEWSFLASH! Keeping secrets is bad! I was woefully disappointed that Roger seemed unwilling to acknowledge the real harm that the Church has done to so many people's lives; in fact mocked them and said they should just grow up. Many people do not look at their religion as a business but as a belief system and expect the Church to act Christlike. I thank him for his point of view but this is what is troubling to so many about Older white men who impose a patriarchy upon those below them
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
Russell M. Nelson didn't change his views on the Church since he was an apostle or even before. In the early nineties of the last century, being a member of the stake presidency, I met him as he counseled us. As a member of the Quorum he visited the Netherlands to preside our stake conference. In a meeting with the stake presidency he shared his opinions over several subjects: i.e. we can do with a 2-hour program on Sunday; we should be more Christians and less Mormons and use the term less than we did by then. Becoming the man at the top of the hierarchy he enforced these views on the Church as-a-whole. His approach to the BoM and Church History in general is understandable for him being an intellectual as an Academically educated man and former top heart surgeon. There is no real escape since we have Mormon Stories and other sources on the history of the Church. John thanks for this great interview!
This is an amazing interview. Spectacular. John is right. You get a brilliant mind on the show- like this, go deep. Remember he’s a business GENIUS. He’s discussing his spiritual evolution through that lens. When you get in the groove his vernacular, his scope of thought is massive. Good things take patience.
This was so interesting. Having "lost my faith/gaining my intellect" some years ago, during the Mark Hoffmann thing, I started thinking the church wasn't coming clean. I quit listening KSL, Deseret News. I was very active at the time. As I came out of the church, I went through several stages. 1. Major Atheist. 2. Extreme anger. 3. Attended ex Mormon conferences. 4. Wrote my experience. 5. I have no anger at the church just disrespect for leaders. They have access to everything I do but keep up their duties. I could not do it knowing what I know. 6. Don't believe church leadership. 7. With my intellectual freedom am happier than ever. 8. So happy to learn the term, "secular Mormon". May describe current me.
Excellent conversation! Has there been an episode with anyone heavily involved in the Pathway program (its development or promotion, etc)? The church does heavily focus on it, but I'd love to know more about the actual quality of this education, actual benefit for the graduates, and the conversion into the church because of it...
I really liked this discussion. His position is really really weird to me. I don't understand remaining associated with such a coercively top down hierarchical organization that claims to have the truth about matters of ultimate concern when you don't agree that their narrative is actually true. He points out that they are leaning heavily into emphasizing that they're christian but doesn't identify as a christian himself. Love the conversation and his analysis, I just can't get my head around his relationship with the church.
@Allekatrase Hendrix said it, himself! He has "turned the hour-glass over". (That speaks volumes! Unnecessary volumes, perhaps, but "volumes", nonetheless.) He (Hendrix) reminds me of a 9th-grade student in Biology class, back in the day: dissecting a frog. (To be certain, he's dissected that frog, already, and is now "coming to the table" to review his findings.) The problem with "dissection" (analysis/analytics) is that you can only do that with something you have killed, first! He has "flipped the hour-glass" and killed the specimen! NOW he can "dissect the dead animal" all he wants: to see what he can "gain" from so-doing. (Well, not much, Roger. Not much!)
I think he believes in there smart business choices and those ring true to him as an entrepreneur. He believes in Mormonism as a company that can fulfill some sense of a "kingdom of god" helping people at the same time building immense wealth.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
The meet the Mormons documentary also served the purpose of making sure when Americans searched that title they didn’t find the 2011 BBC documentary of the same name.
I’m so glad Roger has made himself available to Mormon Stories. Really appreciate his candid & very informed approach. Roger is my kind of Mormon. Really great stuff John & Roger!
1:42:23 Church use members to provide free services and profit from their services! Then the church leaders would say "sacrifice brings you blessings." Sure it blessed them financially!! This really upsets people who just barely making their ends meet but pay tithing for the leaders to put in their pockets!!!
I can never accept the Church's stand on tithing. I understand Roger's point that it keeps the members active and can't argue with his point. Paying tithing before you pay rent hurts people. My mother paying tithing after she was excommunicated hurt me personally and took food out of my mouth. I am sorry but I cannot get over that until the Church repents to my mother and family. Simply put- it is wrong. If BYU Africa is such a wonderful thing then use this money and open a physical BYU campus in Africa; or several of them
I studied "A Course in Miracles," and finally received an answer to my lifelong inquiry about the BoM: "The BoM is not true because it is full of judgements." I heard it as clear as day and yes, I was stunned. ACIM is the way of Love, Peace, Nonjudgement, Forgiveness, and perfect mental, physical, and spiritual wellbeing. ACIM, with its commentary book, "A Year of Forgiveness" are absolutely lifechanging!
My problem with this kind of view is that for the members of the church it's not a product, it's their reality, their life and their meaning. Separating that from the conversation feels immoral to me. However, I appreciate looking at things from all points of views and this is as valuable as any.
I feel so badly for my mormon friends who are multi-generational who have sacrificed and lived in such a way as to bring glory to an organization that thinks nothing of turning these folks life upside down. How evil can you get?
Some are dedicated and do all they're asked and can, spend time and money for the church..then something goes wrong, and very quickly the church throws them away.. that doesn't sound like Jesus Christ..
I enjoyed this episode very much. I’m one of those that complained about lengthy podcasts but I’ve changed; I like it. It takes me a few days to get through one podcast at times but I’d rather have it that way and get the deeper insights and info. The possibility of the Church changing the Book of Mormon’s narrative of it’s origin from translation to revelation/JS creation is very interesting. Any sources to support that possible ‘trend’? Btw, I thought your questions to Mr. Hendrix were excellent. One last thing I couldn’t understand, Mr. Hendrix does not identify as a Christian because he does not believe in Jesus Christ as son of God, Savior/Redeemer, etc? And, a secular Mormon is basically a stance of business belief, not spiritual belief, in the product that the LDS church is selling/marketing?
I would love to see a whole episode on the BYU Pathways and how they are also using that program to control the information that it’s members are getting...I have had a few friends in that program and they have told me how they are taught to pray about all the info they learn (evolution, etc) and compare it to scriptures and if they don’t feel “right” about something they learn, they are taught to not believe it...
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
"The book is more important than how we got the book!" --Hendrix Hendrix has admitted what is fundamentally 'wrong' with mormonism. How they got the book IS fundamentally MORE important than the book. Their prophet seer and revelator has stated as much. "If the BOM is true you can't possibly be saved if you don't believe it, and if the BOM is false you can't possibly believe it and be saved!" This is a well known quote, sited everywhere. The "butts in the seats" are keenly aware of this nonsense. Where the book comes from is ultimately more important than the content of the book... if its NOT true than the product of mormonism is null and void. If mormonism doesn't restore anything, it CAN NOT be the restored church. marcus
The future of Mormonism is it’ll be no more I pray! We need to do all we can to help make this cult fall. One less thing ruining people’s lives we’ll have to worry about
(1) I appreciate Mr. Hendrix's wisdom in much of what he says in this interview, but I disagree with his statement that it's okay for churches to stockpile large amounts of money. In the US, churches are tax-exempt organizations (i.e., have 501(c) status with the IRS). They gain this status as charitable organizations, not as profit-making businesses. It sounds like major revisions need to be made to the policies regulating 501(c) organizations. (2) Large swaths of Africa currently have no access to the internet. I think the LDS church may be drastically underestimating how many African converts it will lose as the population there gains access to the internet and begins to view the church's missionary efforts as neo-colonialism.
The same holds true for Scientology. These "churches" are using the IRS tax exempt status as loopholes to run de-fscto businesses without paying taxes.
I'm a BMR (black Mormon republican) who has been in the church for 26 years. I"m just beginning to look deeply into it orgins and Joseph's history. Not liking what I'm finding. What do I do now?
Study. I recommend reading No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie, RoughStone Rolling by Richard Bushman and Studies of the Book of Mormon byB.H. Roberts. That’s a serious start. These books are not antiMormon but expose the origins of the Church. .
I am a white Mormon who was born into the church and have been LDS for over 60 years and I too have recently started investigating Joseph Smith’s history and I too have numerous questions.
Hey Sam Singley, it’s been a year since your comment. Please update us with where you are currently with Mormonism. I’m fascinated about your personal journey.
Ironically, I just finished all his previous interviews and then this popped up. Regarding, Trend #1 on the strategic name change. I wonder if Nelson will take the final step or renaming the BOM as simply Another Testament of Jesus Christ or the New World Testament of Jesus Christ and put the final nail in the term “Mormon” nomenclature. Another telling sign will be what the new visitor’s centers will focus on. Will they come clean on their real history and reflect it, or completely disconnected from it and put a focus on Jesus, their unique teachings, families, etc.
@@georgewomack6310 No hate expressed in my comments and not hate held in my heart, George. I respect President Nelson and am riveted by the evolution and revolution he is leading.
@@georgewomack6310 the spirit of discernment within Mormonism is a joke. I am a lifelong atheist. But of all the world's religions Mormonism has to be one of the world's silliest.
If people in a society don't have a Holy Book, then they have no center of unity, no common ethics and morals, no common myths. Each person ends up being a law unto himself. Civilizations are built upon core beliefs held in common with a common sense of purpose. Without that, society crumbles.
But you cannot gather around a fake story, unless you don't know it's fake. But this nowadays means you have to keep members away from the internet, or they will find out
When I was on my mission, I was not surprised that one had to follow a schedule. I knew how to do that already. Unfortunately, my mission was so dismotivating that by the end I had no desire to get out of bed on time each day. Every career that requires somebody to follow certain hygiene and scheduling requirements also offers basic things like weekends and vacation days i.e. days which you can sleep in and not shower and shave! Missions can teach this, but it really is the least of any way in which this sort of thing can be learned.
It shows a lot about Natasha's character that she is still wanting to be a part of this church and improve the church from within and advocate for positive change and wanting to be a member even with all the harm the church is causing her and others. Not many people are that strong or powerful. I applaud her courage and dedication. I hope she gets to retain her membership, I hope her "leaders" see that she is not doing what she does out of hatred or maliciousness but she is doing it because she cares and loves the church and the people in it and wants to protect them. ❤️💜💙💚♥️ Not many people have the platform she does and she is doing her best to use it for positiveness
John, you're excellent at this! Good questions without pandering but still keeping respect. One day you might return to that which had become your foil. Keep it up!
Do we have enough information to fill in the blanks and really write a narrative timeline of how the bom was actually made? Like when did they first get the idea to write it? What was the original motivation? Start a church? Generate business for treasure hunting? Someone Needs to do that documentary.
I’ve thought a lot about this. There could have been the motive to simply create a book and then sell so many copies the Smith family could make money. I think things then turned into a new realization that there could be bigger things.
This guy was my mission president and is an incredibly good and kind person. I identify with a lot of his thoughts. I think he's off base a little with the translation narrative of the Book of Mormon. I think her is onto something though with the thought of it doesn't matter much how we got that book, as long as we have it. However, I have a firm testimony of the validity of The Book of Mormon and the Three Witnesses. I think it might be possible that he started out with the Urim and Thumim and as his ability and faith increased, he was able to move to a seer stone without having to open the plates. He was just a man.
That 3 hours could have been condensed into half that time. Hendrix had me nodding off and John can't seem to ask quick pertinent questions and keep the flow moving along. I hope John considers this and makes some adjustments. But, on the whole I really appreciate "Mormon Stories" and hope that it continues for a long time.
I found this discussion inspirational because, for once, someone with the balance to integrate their Mormon past with their present and future, and having no gall. A life that is not a tragedy of "victimhood". As to the analysis presented , it was astounding in its clarity and simplicity, and it showed that the church will remain as it always said it was, an organization that prefers to teach how to fish rather than to give fish. I found the points raised on the church's money perplexing because even in Australia I knew about the mall and the billions hoarded up (not the exact number), that the church's charity money comes from fast offerings and that tithing is used at the discretion of church leaders. It was a truth, I thought, that the members were accountable to "the Lord" (via the church leadership) and that the church was not accountable to the members. It was plainly presented in the Ensign in the 1990s that JS put his head under a sheet and used stones, not the golden plates, to "translate" the BOM, and that there were several different versions of the first vision, all of which were quoted in full. In the late 1980s I had to tell one of my high priests (in distant Australia) that, although he was free to hold Brigham Young's "Adam-God" theory, it was not the doctrine of the church and not to be taught as such. Where all this sense of betrayal and indignation is coming from, I have no idea. When I decided to leave the church 19 years ago, the stake president, feeling threatened by my education and potential influence, held a high council to excommunicate me with no specific complaint (I am a high priest, ex bishop, etc). I defeated him by using Australia's privacy laws to prevent him from sending my records to Utah, the last step in the excommunication process. Thus I am still a member of record in good standing. I have respected existing church members ever since, showing that his fears were ill-founded. I might attend once every five or so years, to catch up with old acquaintances and see how things are. I have 2 actual friends in the church. The rest proved to be just traveling companions. I still hold the values I held while a member (I had them before I joined, at 23), regarding things like alcohol, gambling, drugs, coffee and promiscuity (although I define chastity as relating to love rather than a formal civil ceremony, and certainly not hetero-specific!). I am glad I raised my children with that framework of values and the Family Home Teaching program (some of our happiest moments) and that I was an active home teacher - I gave real help to many families. The church's practical focus on the family is a jewel. I remember the time I first visited Utah, thinking that this was the highest concentration of pianos in the USA, the community with the lowest insurance rates, highest number of choirs, most languages spoken per capita. It is also the most networked community in the world. The LDS church has created a heritage that should not be dismissed lightly. I knew the doctrine has problems (I was never a fan of the BOM and found it a greater challenge with the advent of President Benson, POGP I ignored) but, compared to Athanasius's trinity creed and its history (the core of all mainstream Christianity - read Gibbons, everyone!), Joseph Smith's core teachings are like a warm knife to butter. I left because of the uninspired, hurtful, targeted actions of the local priesthood, which I endured for 8 of my 9 last years (my last LDS year was the happiest year in my life, when I went to KW in Ontario, Canada - thank you guys) - my return to Australia after 911 was unbearable. Two years later (2004) I was reading a Time magazine from 1996 on DNA and, when I read that humans and moss share 55% DNA, I realised that evolution had been proven. I now call myself a "reluctant Darwinist." This, I think, is the central problem of the church - any truth claims, by any religion, are, to put it mildly, problematic. Yet I have had many highly specific and amazing spiritual experiences, which continue. Rather than forcing them into a narrative, I just accept them as a part of my life that is beyond explanation. Incidentally I am "G" but the church had no role in repressing this aspect of myself. I accept full responsibility.
Dr. ROBERT is certainly correct about one thing: POGP was a Huge embarrassment for the Church and continues to be. Also, Pres. Benson in his last bewildered days, particularly after his grandson (cartoonist at the Az Republic) left the Church w/ his family and penned an embarrassing expose re the relationship w/ his grandfather and personal knowledge of just how demented and incapacitated he was. This was to such a degree Gordon B. Hinckley gladly seized the opportunity to step in and conduct his day-to-day activities long before the mantle officially fell upon him.
Regarding Trend #2, viewers may want to know that there has been an Eastern Orthodox-LDS theological dialogue happening for some time now, at least before the pandemic. I attended a meeting where representatives of the BYU faculty and Orthodox theologians had breakfast and planned future events. I was there as an observer, and this happened on the very first day of the American Academy of Religion/Society of Biblical Literature meeting in San Diego in 2019. If it weren’t for the pandemic, there would have been a conference at BYU Provo in 2020. So that’s another dimension of that trend listeners may want to know about.
This was a really fascinating interview. And it's such a management consultant's take on any organization. Especially a controversial organization. Like: Here's how it's secretly great and can be even greater! Let's appreciate its superpowers! This kind of take is a different POV for Mormon Stories for sure. In this context the consultant will of course celebrate impact and try to move past personal issues, ethics concerns, and troubling relationship dynamics as soon as possible, hoping that positive momentum will bring about a cure-all, a complete transformation. But A) I think this position understates the stubbornness of church leadership culture (as opposed to say President Nelson's comparative personal cravings for dynamism) and B) its critical blind spot, as a philosophy or just as a position, is social justice and accountability. It's getting harder and harder to maneuver around those two critical areas with a needlessly obsolete patriarchal power dynamic. Especially when your tools are business strategies that don't seem to show you how to look backward with appropriate introspection, remorse, or even shame. PS Why did John have to bring up the shopping mall and repeat the question? I believe it's because of that "you're special, don't worry about the bad stuff" management philosophy and its troubling blind spot. Can't think about it--we need to move past it! Well, it's a church with significant issues. Also Elder Uchtdorf, never mind about coming out, you might as well stay where you are!!! Haha. Thanks to Roger for sharing his time with us.
This is freaking crazy.... product? people needs a book ? doesn't matter what's in the book ... rebranding ?wow just wow!!! He got real balls to say these things 😂😂🤣
Overall great interview. I do think it is pretty laughable that Rodger considers Joseph Smith and Bringham Young in the top 10-15 Religious figures of all time... I understand that a lot of LDS people have an inflated sense of the LDS Church's standing in the world, and he seems to have carried that into his secular mormonism. But why should I be surprised? I once met a very nice LDS lady who believed SLC to be among the great cities of the world, on Par with Rome, Istanbul or NYC. Yes, it is fabulously wealthy, but the church hasn't even lasted 200 years yet and is such a small percentage of the world's population, lets not add it to the power rankings just yet. I could easily name 20 Religious figures who are much more influential historically than Joseph Smith or Bringham Young. I could probably name 20 Catholic Popes alone who have had a bigger impact on history. Popes who called crusades that changed the geopolitics of entire regions of the world, decisions that have made or broken multiple empires each with more people in them that all the Mormons who have ever lived combined. Popes who decided what regions of the world are controlled by what empire.... decisions that have which has shaped the lives of Billions of people.
He says openly he has a biase,feeling Joseph Smith and BY are in the list of top religious leaders; well, he has it for sure and lack of knowledge of world religions History too. Just with a few top historical leaders of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Judaism, and Islam, you have dozens of names.
As much as I enjoyed Roger's experience and insight, I was bothered by a lot of what he said. How effective would the whole BYU Pathways be in improving the conditions of folks living underdeveloped African countries, or anywhere in the Global South? In his own words (if I remember right), Roger said that a certain percentage of these African Mormons would go through a regular Mormon upbringing like primary, missions, and university, etc. However, he said you could expect maybe ~10-20% of these segments to actually stick with the Church in each stage of life. If the end of this model is an African Mormon graduating from BYU Pathways follows the formula he laid out, that's not a lot of folks going to have successful careers compared to the general population of each country. Whatever benefits that African Mormons would gain, it doesn't seem anywhere near comparable to the net gain of millions of African Mormons giving their earnings in tithing. Granted, math is my worst subject, but the investment the Church would make sounds like a drop in the bucket when you compare it to the money they'll get to extract from members in Africa. Money that will mostly go to an organization dominated by white men with a recorded history of dishonesty. Hell, if we go with the materialistic reasoning of Roger, these African countries would be better off accepting whatever deals they can hash out with China instead. For all its faults, at least China wouldn't push a religion with ties to white supremacy onto them.
Final thoughts: This isn't a dig at Roger, but the way he describes the Church and "the kingdom" its building on Earth--he makes it sound like it resembles all the social relations we're subject to under capitalism.
Rodney Stark, who actually made the predictions of astronomical growth for the LDS church in 1980s and 1990s, wrote a book called “the Rise of Christianity” in which he argued that Christianity took off like a rocket within Roman society because it did things like care for the sick during epidemics and assisted the poor. Pagan religion was largely indifferent to this suffering. Once people started to vote with their feet and the ruling class embraced Christianity to appear compassionate (thus rendering it respectable), there was no stopping its rise. I could see Mormonism using its vast wealth to do something similar. Large populations within the third world could be won over with such generosity. Ross Douthat actually argued in his book “A Nation of Heretics” that the rural Midwest and South are ripe for proselytization because of the rise of religious disaffiliation and the increase in human misery. He claims people want to fill the void. Imagine if the LDS church put real resources into fighting addiction and poverty in deindustrialized and opioid ravaged Ohio and West Virginia. That would win good will, loyalty, and converts. Imagine if the church gave those people the chance to afford college. This isn’t an outrageous proposition. My ancestors were English coal miners who came to America because the LDS church promised them a better life way back in the 1800s. Is this bribing people to join? Sure! However, we’ve done it from day one. If the Brethren are smart, they’ll do this. People will believe ANYTHING if you improve their lives.
It would be wonderful if the Mormon Church did what you suggest ( fighting addiction and ending poverty.) At the end of the day, the value of a religion is in how it transforms lives. What are its fruits? The Church could swallow their pride and abandon belief in the BOM as literal history. That would make it easier for people to join.
@@bossendenwoodconvict I’m not sure if the historicity of scripture really bothers people. It tends to bother Ex-Mormons, but I’m not sure if the general public cares as much. I don’t meet many Christians who are deeply bothered by the historicity of Jesus. I don’t believe most people probe into religion deeply. I think that’s a smaller subset of people.
Rodger seems like a smart guy who talks like some of my old business school professors. "Everything is Business." The truth of the matter is that is just one lens to look at something through. I do think that is it helpful to think of the LDS Church as a corporation, but that isn't how they market themselves. There is a huge difference between how you would treat a business and a church or a wealthy individual and a Church. When I deal with a business or individual, I give them money for a product or service and have little to no expectation for how they will use that money. It doesn't work like that with a church. Though it is often helpful to think about the relationship between an individual and a church as a customer and product, it is category different. The "Think of the church like a business" is a really great analogy, but not an all-encompassing one.
With all this in mind, it seems that there is consensus on this panel (and with many viewers) that Jesus really is not at the head of the Church and that there is no communication between the head of the Church and Jesus like we see in depictions of Joseph Smith and God the Father and Jesus Christ. Am I correct? I say that because the Church leadership are strategizing like an Executive Board of a corporation in order to survive as an entity, whether it means changing its actual religious beliefs to make itself more appealing to potential members (those who are not yet affiliated). Current members may have problems with changing the belief systems they grew up with, but such changes are/were/will be necessary in order for the Church to survive. Nothing revelatory about that in my mind. This smashes to bits the concept of Jesus being the head of the Church and divine revelation to the Church leadership.
Brilliant! So will they rewrite mormon doctrine to say revelation instead of translation. Will they admit to the absurdity and lies of their history and apologize. Will Mormonism confess with a contrite spirit ask for forgiveness and make recompense? Will people forgive and forget will a fraud ever truly be remade to fly? I arrived at the same thinking, I know Mormonism is not Technically true but if you imagine if it were would it be a good idea would it be functional?
No apologies will be forthcoming. They will only continue to put out slippery new whitewashed accounts redoing the problems. They will feign affection, sincerity and holiness which they have not. They will do this just as they have done before to the young ones coming up not knowing the truth. They will rob them too of the true Christ, the true Father, and the true gospel of salvation which is good news. They are liars like their master!
Never been Mormon, so bare with me. I'm not sure his reframe did anything more than explain why he doesn't have a testimony. And if you don't have a testimony, and you don't believe the dogma, then you lost your faith. I've listened to this a few times, so if anyone wants to school me please do so. Because I truly want to understand.
Matter of linguistic taste. I spent over 50 years in the church learning the doctrine, dogma, the practices. As I stepped back I did not lose those valuable things. I have a testimony of those doctrines, dogmas and practices. However, I have chosen to continue evolving and incorporating new truths that have to do with social issues, which conflict with the church’s conservative policies.
@Joshua Davis The profet Joseph Smith created a "Council of 50" for the express purpose of having himself crowned "King of the Political Kingdom of God on Earth". (This is recounted in the multiple-volume, Church-sanctioned book "History of the Church", by B.H. Roberts.) With that said, this religion has always been a theocracy: avoiding the use of that word for obvious(?) reasons.
@@ahashdahnagila6884 Absolutely correct, my friend, but most in the Church today know nothing about the Council of 50 and certainly cannot name anyone in it, but interesting how "secretive" this cabal is and why? Invariably, they are ALL wealthy, influential business and/or civic leaders, such as Jon Huntsman.
Such financial wizardry in the Church! Yeah, when you have millions of people coughing up 10% of their incomes, it can add right up . . . and you don't have to be too smart to make a lot more money off of investments. Monopolies usually do pretty well, although they are basically run 100% on pure politics . . . because they don't have to compete with anyone / anything else.
Wealthy church vs Wealthy person. That is a false equivalency. People earn money with the understanding it is for their own benefit. A church claims that they are receiving money to help people and further the message of God. Secular Mormons... so a group of people who know it isn't true but go along with the bigotry, historical racism, shaming and false claims of divinity because it's a fun group of people? Great guest but this idea is appalling.
This seems the path of the RLDS (Community of Christ) and they are dying on the vine. Christianity isn’t growing in the West (for every new Catholic, 5+ are leaving), but same Church is growing at 200% in some African countries). So Christianity isn’t declining globally. I love Roger, but it’s just not realistic to believe you can secularize Mormonism (this is what Jefferson thought you could do with Christianity. He even created his own New Testament for the Enlightenment Age, and it went nowhere). It would be like the Christian world saying, “you know Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead. It was all a hoax. The disciples were deluded.” It’s cutting off the branch you are sitting on. He is putting a business model upon religious belief (which is much more nuanced reality), e.g,, the Mormon Church will educate you and teach you how to make loads of money. Sounds like a Trump University model.
Just another apologist. For a church that claims to be a church of Christ, what about the sermon about the camel passing through the eye of a needle? This reminds me of evangelicals and their prosperity gospel. When the church leadership was pushing Prop 8, they shook their members down hard to pay for it. Turns out they had more than enough money to pay for it. They didn't want to spend their money, they wanted their members to pay - above and beyond their tithing obligations.
After graduatiing from BYU Left LDS marriage and thought system & organization in 1967. Began studying the new teachings of Jesus that came forth in 1974 that present an entirely on different and highly personal level that has nothing to do with a church structure and ritualized group doctrine. These new teachings based are not based a collective perceptions based on duality and religious beliefs that keep us separate. Being the biggest and the richest church will not lead it's members to enlightment and healing of the mind as we return our mind. We do not a structure or organization called a church to do this. Praciticing true forgiveness is the way of remembering we are one with God and have never left Him.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Roger worried that they may be losing listeners when he starts off talking about the 16 strategies and I'm over here thinking that I could listen to this discussion for hours and hours. John is right that what people love about this podcast is how John allows the conversation to be given as many hours as the guest needs. Thank you Roger and John.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html
The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
Roger is very deliberate with the words he uses. Words mean things...
@Ben Larsen
Well, "just like the Church" (quotes mine, for emphasis only), Hendrix has re-branded himself!
AND, specifically, he is "marketing that new brand, of himself".
LIKE the Church (Leaders), he "cares what people think about him": otherwise, he wouldn't be so "measured in what he says".
Now all Hendrix has to do is adopt Dallin Harris Oaks' "delivery", and the "transformation" will be complete: "style over substance'"....
and then Roger and Dallin will BOTH be P-R giants, in their respective spheres of action!
@@ahashdahnagila6884 well said.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html
The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
yeah and one word that came out of his mouth too much was Blacks.
@2:00:00 Thank you Roger Hendrix for your thoughts and insight. I think John Dehlin makes a good point that the church is rewriting its history of philanthropy.
The church can attempt to claim it sends volunteers/missionaries, but the sacrifices of the individuals paying 400/500$ a month is a dishonest appropriation of their contribution since the money spent does not go to humanitarian efforts.
The corporation sends them but doesn't pay. The kids and couple pay.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html
The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
@@louisnjulie1685 Stop posting!
My favorite guest. Thanks for bringing him back.
Mormon Spring 2021 is here, folks! It’s going to be beautiful!
I’m convinced a significant number of Mormons are “secular Mormons.” I’ve counseled 100s of LDS with doubts, and so many say, I don’t believe it anymore but “it’s the best thing out there for my family.” Or I “like the culture, community, fellowship but don’t really believe this stuff.” It’s amazing to hear someone at his status to confess that. I imagine there are GA’s who are secular Mormons
I feel that way about the Adventist church. I feel identified with the culture, love the community, fellowship, and the lifestyle but don’t believe in the doctrines (at least not literally-factually). It’s a tough position to be in. To not fully fit in in any one space.
Absolutely, particularly true in Utah. There's a lot of peer and social pressure to at least pretend to be TBM.
Mostly they don't want to upset their family of oirigin. nor do they wish to rock the boat in a marriage not built on love or.trust, but keeping up appearances and using their temple recommend as a virtue signal so they get a due pass.
Staying in a cult where they lie to an brainwash children every day because one is comfortable has to be one of the lowest ways to live I know of.
NEWSFLASH! Keeping secrets is bad! I was woefully disappointed that Roger seemed unwilling to acknowledge the real harm that the Church has done to so many people's lives; in fact mocked them and said they should just grow up. Many people do not look at their religion as a business but as a belief system and expect the Church to act Christlike. I thank him for his point of view but this is what is troubling to so many about Older white men who impose a patriarchy upon those below them
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html
The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
I agree with this so much!
“I haven’t lost anything, goodness no, but I have evolved” I want that on a t-shirt! Mormon STORIES needs MERCH!!!!!! 😂
Agreed!
That would be perfect!
Yes! Printed on the back "Secular Mormon"
I lost my religion, but found my sanity! Here's a box of matches in case you find my religion.
@@mormonstories I want that printed on a green apron.
My takeaway from this interview is that the church is more focused on being powerful than in being good.
Good Eye
Russell M. Nelson didn't change his views on the Church since he was an apostle or even before. In the early nineties of the last century, being a member of the stake presidency, I met him as he counseled us. As a member of the Quorum he visited the Netherlands to preside our stake conference. In a meeting with the stake presidency he shared his opinions over several subjects: i.e. we can do with a 2-hour program on Sunday; we should be more Christians and less Mormons and use the term less than we did by then. Becoming the man at the top of the hierarchy he enforced these views on the Church as-a-whole. His approach to the BoM and Church History in general is understandable for him being an intellectual as an Academically educated man and former top heart surgeon. There is no real escape since we have Mormon Stories and other sources on the history of the Church. John thanks for this great interview!
I don’t think Joe Huntsman expects his money back, he wants to make a statement!
This is an amazing interview. Spectacular. John is right. You get a brilliant mind on the show- like this, go deep.
Remember he’s a business GENIUS. He’s discussing his spiritual evolution through that lens.
When you get in the groove his vernacular, his scope of thought is massive.
Good things take patience.
This makes so much sense!! Thanks Roger for shining a light on how the "Church" is thinking ahead.
I've spent 2021 sincerely doubting the doubts I had about my doubts.
This was so interesting. Having "lost my faith/gaining my intellect" some years ago, during the Mark Hoffmann thing, I started thinking the church wasn't coming clean. I quit listening KSL, Deseret News. I was very active at the time.
As I came out of the church, I went through several stages.
1. Major Atheist.
2. Extreme anger.
3. Attended ex Mormon conferences.
4. Wrote my experience.
5. I have no anger at the church just disrespect for leaders. They have access to everything I do but keep up their duties. I could not do it knowing what I know.
6. Don't believe church leadership.
7. With my intellectual freedom am happier than ever.
8. So happy to learn the term, "secular Mormon". May describe current me.
For anyone wanting to watch this interview (which is really good), I recommend playing it at 1.25 speed
Yeah that helped a lot!
It is one of the reasons why I resigned from the mormon Inc.
It is not a church, it is a business Corporation.
You are right Don't. Almost all bishops and members are leaving the Mormon. What ever we all believes in God. But Mormon priest are almost homosexual.
Fascinating interview. The way Roger thinks is amazing to me. Thank you John for this interview.
I love the long format; don't ever change it!
Excellent conversation!
Has there been an episode with anyone heavily involved in the Pathway program (its development or promotion, etc)? The church does heavily focus on it, but I'd love to know more about the actual quality of this education, actual benefit for the graduates, and the conversion into the church because of it...
Dial it up on te internet. There will be names to contact
This entire interview was very interesting and packed with things I did not know. I liked the back/forth format. Thank you interviewer & interviewee!
I really liked this discussion. His position is really really weird to me. I don't understand remaining associated with such a coercively top down hierarchical organization that claims to have the truth about matters of ultimate concern when you don't agree that their narrative is actually true. He points out that they are leaning heavily into emphasizing that they're christian but doesn't identify as a christian himself. Love the conversation and his analysis, I just can't get my head around his relationship with the church.
@Allekatrase
Hendrix said it, himself!
He has "turned the hour-glass over".
(That speaks volumes! Unnecessary volumes, perhaps, but "volumes", nonetheless.)
He (Hendrix) reminds me of a 9th-grade student in Biology class, back in the day: dissecting a frog.
(To be certain, he's dissected that frog, already, and is now "coming to the table" to review his findings.)
The problem with "dissection" (analysis/analytics) is that you can only do that with something you have killed, first!
He has "flipped the hour-glass" and killed the specimen! NOW he can "dissect the dead animal" all he wants: to see what he can "gain" from so-doing.
(Well, not much, Roger. Not much!)
I think he believes in there smart business choices and those ring true to him as an entrepreneur. He believes in Mormonism as a company that can fulfill some sense of a "kingdom of god" helping people at the same time building immense wealth.
Mormonism isn't Christian so that would make it easier for him to stay.
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html
The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
It's hypocritical and puts ones own authority into the hands of blind old white men
The meet the Mormons documentary also served the purpose of making sure when Americans searched that title they didn’t find the 2011 BBC documentary of the same name.
I worked on that movie....🤦🏻♂️
@@bluesfrequency the BBC one or the LDS one? Either way that is really cool! You don’t need to be ashamed.
I’m so glad Roger has made himself available to Mormon Stories. Really appreciate his candid & very informed approach. Roger is my kind of Mormon. Really great stuff John & Roger!
Thank you!
Since it's mostly crap anyway they are basically polishing a turd. No matter what they do, it can't change the basic truth regarding the organization.
1:42:23 Church use members to provide free services and profit from their services! Then the church leaders would say "sacrifice brings you blessings." Sure it blessed them financially!! This really upsets people who just barely making their ends meet but pay tithing for the leaders to put in their pockets!!!
Who is Roger Clark mentioned as one of those seven who knew about all the church's wealth?
I can never accept the Church's stand on tithing. I understand Roger's point that it keeps the members active and can't argue with his point. Paying tithing before you pay rent hurts people. My mother paying tithing after she was excommunicated hurt me personally and took food out of my mouth. I am sorry but I cannot get over that until the Church repents to my mother and family. Simply put- it is wrong. If BYU Africa is such a wonderful thing then use this money and open a physical BYU campus in Africa; or several of them
Yes John, do more help with charities. I think that this is how a mission should be. Stop knocking on doors and help people instead
@@dianethulin1700 that's such a good idea it's become the focus of the missionary program. Great minds think alike?
I studied "A Course in Miracles," and finally received an answer to my lifelong inquiry about the BoM: "The BoM is not true because it is full of judgements." I heard it as clear as day and yes, I was stunned.
ACIM is the way of Love, Peace, Nonjudgement, Forgiveness, and perfect mental, physical, and spiritual wellbeing. ACIM, with its commentary book, "A Year of Forgiveness" are absolutely lifechanging!
I just ordered it. 💜
My problem with this kind of view is that for the members of the church it's not a product, it's their reality, their life and their meaning. Separating that from the conversation feels immoral to me.
However, I appreciate looking at things from all points of views and this is as valuable as any.
I feel so badly for my mormon friends who are multi-generational who have sacrificed and lived in such a way as to bring glory to an organization that thinks nothing of turning these folks life upside down. How evil can you get?
This
Some are dedicated and do all they're asked and can, spend time and money for the church..then something goes wrong, and very quickly the church throws them away.. that doesn't sound like Jesus Christ..
WHAT AN IGNORANT AND IDIOTIC STATEMENT!!!
@@georgewomack6310 Is that the only thing you know how to say??
@@cc-mk2hp ...nothing else to say to dignify garbage that people put as hate!!!! SAD
low key - this actually may be already one of the best mormon stories all time -imo
Such a great interview. So helpful to look at things from a different perspective. THANK YOU.
I enjoyed this episode very much. I’m one of those that complained about lengthy podcasts but I’ve changed; I like it. It takes me a few days to get through one podcast at times but I’d rather have it that way and get the deeper insights and info. The possibility of the Church changing the Book of Mormon’s narrative of it’s origin from translation to revelation/JS creation is very interesting. Any sources to support that possible ‘trend’? Btw, I thought your questions to Mr. Hendrix were excellent. One last thing I couldn’t understand, Mr. Hendrix does not identify as a Christian because he does not believe in Jesus Christ as son of God, Savior/Redeemer, etc? And, a secular Mormon is basically a stance of business belief, not spiritual belief, in the product that the LDS church is selling/marketing?
I would love to see a whole episode on the BYU Pathways and how they are also using that program to control the information that it’s members are getting...I have had a few friends in that program and they have told me how they are taught to pray about all the info they learn (evolution, etc) and compare it to scriptures and if they don’t feel “right” about something they learn, they are taught to not believe it...
A G R E A T video to watch is "Christianity VS Mormonism". ruclips.net/video/cHrL8XT2VBs/видео.html
The reason this "nominal Christian" joined the mormon organization is because, as she admits, she never read her Bible. I and my wife ARE Bible reading Christians and we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah to plant Christian (non-mormon) Churches in 1994. We lived there for 8.5 years and planted 3 Christian Churches. We have experienced first-hand who these mormon people really are and what they believe and what their books say and what their organization does to the families (especially women & girls). In Utah, which is "the seat of their religion" the mormons were hateful, mean and liars who did and said whatever they thought necessary to get what they want. We are Puerto Rican so they were especially mean and hateful to our daughter because she is dark skinned. She was 8 years old. While in public school, her teachers continually made fun of her and were oppressive. We had to take her out of public school and place her in a private Christian School where she flourished.
"The book is more important than how we got the book!" --Hendrix
Hendrix has admitted what is fundamentally 'wrong' with mormonism. How they got the book IS fundamentally MORE important than the book. Their prophet seer and revelator has stated as much. "If the BOM is true you can't possibly be saved if you don't believe it, and if the BOM is false you can't possibly believe it and be saved!"
This is a well known quote, sited everywhere. The "butts in the seats" are keenly aware of this nonsense. Where the book comes from is ultimately more important than the content of the book... if its NOT true than the product of mormonism is null and void. If mormonism doesn't restore anything, it CAN NOT be the restored church.
marcus
The future of Mormonism is it’ll be no more I pray! We need to do all we can to help make this cult fall. One less thing ruining people’s lives we’ll have to worry about
Is he actually saying that making a cult less cult looking is a good thing?!!!
With that huge amount of money, wonder if LDS church is the next great and abominable church.
Perhaps it already is.
@@janellbeach8616
One thing is certain: it's got enough Pharisees in it!
Duh
A REAL DUMB AND IGNORANT STATEMENT....
It always was abominable
When it comes to personal development in a business manner the Mormon Church is second to none…
I have noticed advertisements and commercials like crazy online for the church this past week. I thought corporates numbers must be struggling.
they are
Perhaps LDS Inc. wants to attract as many of the new "refugees" as possible? Or Mitt Romney is going to run for president again in 2024? Or both.
(1) I appreciate Mr. Hendrix's wisdom in much of what he says in this interview, but I disagree with his statement that it's okay for churches to stockpile large amounts of money. In the US, churches are tax-exempt organizations (i.e., have 501(c) status with the IRS). They gain this status as charitable organizations, not as profit-making businesses. It sounds like major revisions need to be made to the policies regulating 501(c) organizations.
(2) Large swaths of Africa currently have no access to the internet. I think the LDS church may be drastically underestimating how many African converts it will lose as the population there gains access to the internet and begins to view the church's missionary efforts as neo-colonialism.
The same holds true for Scientology. These "churches" are using the IRS tax exempt status as loopholes to run de-fscto businesses without paying taxes.
Anyone know where can I watch the leak they are talking about at 2:32:57 ?
I'm a BMR (black Mormon republican) who has been in the church for 26 years. I"m just beginning to look deeply into it orgins and Joseph's history. Not liking what I'm finding. What do I do now?
Study. I recommend reading No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie, RoughStone Rolling by Richard Bushman and Studies of the Book of Mormon byB.H. Roberts. That’s a serious start. These books are not antiMormon but expose the origins of the Church. .
I am a white Mormon who was born into the church and have been LDS for over 60 years and I too have recently started investigating Joseph Smith’s history and I too have numerous questions.
Hey Sam Singley, it’s been a year since your comment. Please update us with where you are currently with Mormonism. I’m fascinated about your personal journey.
I would keep reading. You should be clear on what you are signing on for, and decide if it is reflective of your values.
This is going to be amazing
Another amazing MS episode. Awesome John keep up the great work!!
Ironically, I just finished all his previous interviews and then this popped up. Regarding, Trend #1 on the strategic name change. I wonder if Nelson will take the final step or renaming the BOM as simply Another Testament of Jesus Christ or the New World Testament of Jesus Christ and put the final nail in the term “Mormon” nomenclature. Another telling sign will be what the new visitor’s centers will focus on. Will they come clean on their real history and reflect it, or completely disconnected from it and put a focus on Jesus, their unique teachings, families, etc.
....stop hating a faith man....I am sure you have better things to worry about....
@@georgewomack6310 No hate expressed in my comments and not hate held in my heart, George. I respect President Nelson and am riveted by the evolution and revolution he is leading.
Kicking against pricks is an apt metaphor for Mormonism.
....please don't hate the faith or religion of others....be respectful...U are better than this...
@@georgewomack6310 Mormonism sucks and deserves to be exposed.
@@georgewomack6310 yes we are all apostates of the OTHER Great and Abonimal Churches. Nondelightsome as it were to the lord.
@@sdfotodude ....GLAD U admit U are.....it takes a lot to admit to ben an apostate!!! First step in the repentance process....happy for you my bro!!!!
@@georgewomack6310 the spirit of discernment within Mormonism is a joke. I am a lifelong atheist. But of all the world's religions Mormonism has to be one of the world's silliest.
This man is brilliant.
"People need a book. People believe in the bible more than what's inside the bible." That's the truth. Nothing to do with the contents or its history.
Gross
How about actually historical facts and the search for truth.
If people in a society don't have a Holy Book, then they have no center of unity, no common ethics and morals, no common myths. Each person ends up being a law unto himself. Civilizations are built upon core beliefs held in common with a common sense of purpose. Without that, society crumbles.
But you cannot gather around a fake story, unless you don't know it's fake. But this nowadays means you have to keep members away from the internet, or they will find out
Most insightful perspectives.
This man is bold, i will give him this
Love the interview! Glued to Roger! THANKS!
When I was on my mission, I was not surprised that one had to follow a schedule. I knew how to do that already. Unfortunately, my mission was so dismotivating that by the end I had no desire to get out of bed on time each day. Every career that requires somebody to follow certain hygiene and scheduling requirements also offers basic things like weekends and vacation days i.e. days which you can sleep in and not shower and shave! Missions can teach this, but it really is the least of any way in which this sort of thing can be learned.
It shows a lot about Natasha's character that she is still wanting to be a part of this church and improve the church from within and advocate for positive change and wanting to be a member even with all the harm the church is causing her and others. Not many people are that strong or powerful. I applaud her courage and dedication. I hope she gets to retain her membership, I hope her "leaders" see that she is not doing what she does out of hatred or maliciousness but she is doing it because she cares and loves the church and the people in it and wants to protect them. ❤️💜💙💚♥️ Not many people have the platform she does and she is doing her best to use it for positiveness
John, you're excellent at this! Good questions without pandering but still keeping respect. One day you might return to that which had become your foil. Keep it up!
If they are making changes as time goes on, what does that say about divine revelation ?
@Abbas Habibi
What? God has long since learned the art of shimmy-shammy.
Didn't you know that?
@@ahashdahnagila6884 - “shimmy-shammy” 😂🤣😂 Love it!
It says that they don't have divine revelation.
I M wondering if the church has contacted Roger A. Hendrix Sr. since his interviews with you and for his view points about the church.
Author
Fantastic interview
Do we have enough information to fill in the blanks and really write a narrative timeline of how the bom was actually made? Like when did they first get the idea to write it? What was the original motivation? Start a church? Generate business for treasure hunting? Someone Needs to do that documentary.
Not loved. Evolved
I’ve thought a lot about this. There could have been the motive to simply create a book and then sell so many copies the Smith family could make money. I think things then turned into a new realization that there could be bigger things.
@Derek Tilley
Don't you think, though, that you're coming off a little bit like Bernie Madoff, in your thinking, here?
@@ahashdahnagila6884 I really don’t know what you’re talking about
Wonderful perspective and also educational. I enjoyed his transparency, views, and attitude.
Excellent and great guest.!! It made a very good interview!
This guy was my mission president and is an incredibly good and kind person. I identify with a lot of his thoughts. I think he's off base a little with the translation narrative of the Book of Mormon. I think her is onto something though with the thought of it doesn't matter much how we got that book, as long as we have it. However, I have a firm testimony of the validity of The Book of Mormon and the Three Witnesses. I think it might be possible that he started out with the Urim and Thumim and as his ability and faith increased, he was able to move to a seer stone without having to open the plates. He was just a man.
I admire President Hendrix's (he will always president to me) thinking and willingness to go outside the box though.
The church isn't true... long live the church! I think it's all insane.
That 3 hours could have been condensed into half that time. Hendrix had me nodding off and John can't seem to ask quick pertinent questions and keep the flow moving along. I hope John considers this and makes some adjustments. But, on the whole I really appreciate "Mormon Stories" and hope that it continues for a long time.
Is this man still a member? He keeps saying We so just curious.
He's not currently attending be he considers himself to be a "secular Mormon."
We discuss this at the end.
Fantastic podcast today.
I found this discussion inspirational because, for once, someone with the balance to integrate their Mormon past with their present and future, and having no gall. A life that is not a tragedy of "victimhood".
As to the analysis presented , it was astounding in its clarity and simplicity, and it showed that the church will remain as it always said it was, an organization that prefers to teach how to fish rather than to give fish. I found the points raised on the church's money perplexing because even in Australia I knew about the mall and the billions hoarded up (not the exact number), that the church's charity money comes from fast offerings and that tithing is used at the discretion of church leaders. It was a truth, I thought, that the members were accountable to "the Lord" (via the church leadership) and that the church was not accountable to the members. It was plainly presented in the Ensign in the 1990s that JS put his head under a sheet and used stones, not the golden plates, to "translate" the BOM, and that there were several different versions of the first vision, all of which were quoted in full. In the late 1980s I had to tell one of my high priests (in distant Australia) that, although he was free to hold Brigham Young's "Adam-God" theory, it was not the doctrine of the church and not to be taught as such.
Where all this sense of betrayal and indignation is coming from, I have no idea.
When I decided to leave the church 19 years ago, the stake president, feeling threatened by my education and potential influence, held a high council to excommunicate me with no specific complaint (I am a high priest, ex bishop, etc). I defeated him by using Australia's privacy laws to prevent him from sending my records to Utah, the last step in the excommunication process. Thus I am still a member of record in good standing. I have respected existing church members ever since, showing that his fears were ill-founded. I might attend once every five or so years, to catch up with old acquaintances and see how things are. I have 2 actual friends in the church. The rest proved to be just traveling companions.
I still hold the values I held while a member (I had them before I joined, at 23), regarding things like alcohol, gambling, drugs, coffee and promiscuity (although I define chastity as relating to love rather than a formal civil ceremony, and certainly not hetero-specific!). I am glad I raised my children with that framework of values and the Family Home Teaching program (some of our happiest moments) and that I was an active home teacher - I gave real help to many families. The church's practical focus on the family is a jewel.
I remember the time I first visited Utah, thinking that this was the highest concentration of pianos in the USA, the community with the lowest insurance rates, highest number of choirs, most languages spoken per capita. It is also the most networked community in the world. The LDS church has created a heritage that should not be dismissed lightly.
I knew the doctrine has problems (I was never a fan of the BOM and found it a greater challenge with the advent of President Benson, POGP I ignored) but, compared to Athanasius's trinity creed and its history (the core of all mainstream Christianity - read Gibbons, everyone!), Joseph Smith's core teachings are like a warm knife to butter.
I left because of the uninspired, hurtful, targeted actions of the local priesthood, which I endured for 8 of my 9 last years (my last LDS year was the happiest year in my life, when I went to KW in Ontario, Canada - thank you guys) - my return to Australia after 911 was unbearable. Two years later (2004) I was reading a Time magazine from 1996 on DNA and, when I read that humans and moss share 55% DNA, I realised that evolution had been proven. I now call myself a "reluctant Darwinist." This, I think, is the central problem of the church - any truth claims, by any religion, are, to put it mildly, problematic. Yet I have had many highly specific and amazing spiritual experiences, which continue. Rather than forcing them into a narrative, I just accept them as a part of my life that is beyond explanation.
Incidentally I am "G" but the church had no role in repressing this aspect of myself. I accept full responsibility.
Dr. Robert - I would love to meet and interview you some day for the podcast. mormonstories@gmail.com
Dr. ROBERT is certainly correct about one thing: POGP was a Huge embarrassment for the Church and continues to be.
Also, Pres. Benson in his last bewildered days, particularly after his grandson (cartoonist at the Az Republic) left the Church w/ his family and penned an embarrassing expose re the relationship w/ his grandfather and personal knowledge of just how demented and incapacitated he was.
This was to such a degree Gordon B. Hinckley gladly seized the opportunity to step in and conduct his day-to-day activities long before the mantle officially fell upon him.
Thank you, Dr. Beautifully stated.
Regarding Trend #2, viewers may want to know that there has been an Eastern Orthodox-LDS theological dialogue happening for some time now, at least before the pandemic. I attended a meeting where representatives of the BYU faculty and Orthodox theologians had breakfast and planned future events. I was there as an observer, and this happened on the very first day of the American Academy of Religion/Society of Biblical Literature meeting in San Diego in 2019. If it weren’t for the pandemic, there would have been a conference at BYU Provo in 2020. So that’s another dimension of that trend listeners may want to know about.
This was a really fascinating interview. And it's such a management consultant's take on any organization. Especially a controversial organization. Like: Here's how it's secretly great and can be even greater! Let's appreciate its superpowers! This kind of take is a different POV for Mormon Stories for sure. In this context the consultant will of course celebrate impact and try to move past personal issues, ethics concerns, and troubling relationship dynamics as soon as possible, hoping that positive momentum will bring about a cure-all, a complete transformation. But A) I think this position understates the stubbornness of church leadership culture (as opposed to say President Nelson's comparative personal cravings for dynamism) and B) its critical blind spot, as a philosophy or just as a position, is social justice and accountability. It's getting harder and harder to maneuver around those two critical areas with a needlessly obsolete patriarchal power dynamic. Especially when your tools are business strategies that don't seem to show you how to look backward with appropriate introspection, remorse, or even shame. PS Why did John have to bring up the shopping mall and repeat the question? I believe it's because of that "you're special, don't worry about the bad stuff" management philosophy and its troubling blind spot. Can't think about it--we need to move past it! Well, it's a church with significant issues. Also Elder Uchtdorf, never mind about coming out, you might as well stay where you are!!! Haha. Thanks to Roger for sharing his time with us.
Phooey, I missed the beginning. I'm gonna watch from beginning now.
This is freaking crazy.... product? people needs a book ? doesn't matter what's in the book ... rebranding ?wow just wow!!! He got real balls to say these things 😂😂🤣
BYU pathway in Africa sounds very colonial attitude to third world.
It sounds very imperialistic. White supremacy is still rife
The mormon empire. Built on lies
Now going for the black blood
Overall great interview. I do think it is pretty laughable that Rodger considers Joseph Smith and Bringham Young in the top 10-15 Religious figures of all time...
I understand that a lot of LDS people have an inflated sense of the LDS Church's standing in the world, and he seems to have carried that into his secular mormonism. But why should I be surprised? I once met a very nice LDS lady who believed SLC to be among the great cities of the world, on Par with Rome, Istanbul or NYC.
Yes, it is fabulously wealthy, but the church hasn't even lasted 200 years yet and is such a small percentage of the world's population, lets not add it to the power rankings just yet.
I could easily name 20 Religious figures who are much more influential historically than Joseph Smith or Bringham Young.
I could probably name 20 Catholic Popes alone who have had a bigger impact on history. Popes who called crusades that changed the geopolitics of entire regions of the world, decisions that have made or broken multiple empires each with more people in them that all the Mormons who have ever lived combined. Popes who decided what regions of the world are controlled by what empire.... decisions that have which has shaped the lives of Billions of people.
Loved this conversation! Thank you.
I’d like to 🐻 my testimony, I know the church is through!
He says openly he has a biase,feeling Joseph Smith and BY are in the list of top religious leaders; well, he has it for sure and lack of knowledge of world religions History too. Just with a few top historical leaders of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Judaism, and Islam, you have dozens of names.
Excellent podcasts
This episode is really P-ing me off!!!
As much as I enjoyed Roger's experience and insight, I was bothered by a lot of what he said.
How effective would the whole BYU Pathways be in improving the conditions of folks living underdeveloped African countries, or anywhere in the Global South?
In his own words (if I remember right), Roger said that a certain percentage of these African Mormons would go through a regular Mormon upbringing like primary, missions, and university, etc. However, he said you could expect maybe ~10-20% of these segments to actually stick with the Church in each stage of life. If the end of this model is an African Mormon graduating from BYU Pathways follows the formula he laid out, that's not a lot of folks going to have successful careers compared to the general population of each country.
Whatever benefits that African Mormons would gain, it doesn't seem anywhere near comparable to the net gain of millions of African Mormons giving their earnings in tithing. Granted, math is my worst subject, but the investment the Church would make sounds like a drop in the bucket when you compare it to the money they'll get to extract from members in Africa. Money that will mostly go to an organization dominated by white men with a recorded history of dishonesty.
Hell, if we go with the materialistic reasoning of Roger, these African countries would be better off accepting whatever deals they can hash out with China instead. For all its faults, at least China wouldn't push a religion with ties to white supremacy onto them.
Final thoughts: This isn't a dig at Roger, but the way he describes the Church and "the kingdom" its building on Earth--he makes it sound like it resembles all the social relations we're subject to under capitalism.
What does he think about the Lamanites and Nephites in the church now?
Great interview. Great ideas in the discussion.
He has lost his testimony of what? ...Joseph Smith? Did he really believe in Jesus Christ b/4.🤔
....please don't hate the faith or religion of others....be respectful...U are better than this...
I'm not Mormon but if I was I would really be confused.
Rodney Stark, who actually made the predictions of astronomical growth for the LDS church in 1980s and 1990s, wrote a book called “the Rise of Christianity” in which he argued that Christianity took off like a rocket within Roman society because it did things like care for the sick during epidemics and assisted the poor. Pagan religion was largely indifferent to this suffering. Once people started to vote with their feet and the ruling class embraced Christianity to appear compassionate (thus rendering it respectable), there was no stopping its rise.
I could see Mormonism using its vast wealth to do something similar. Large populations within the third world could be won over with such generosity.
Ross Douthat actually argued in his book “A Nation of Heretics” that the rural Midwest and South are ripe for proselytization because of the rise of religious disaffiliation and the increase in human misery. He claims people want to fill the void.
Imagine if the LDS church put real resources into fighting addiction and poverty in deindustrialized and opioid ravaged Ohio and West Virginia. That would win good will, loyalty, and converts. Imagine if the church gave those people the chance to afford college.
This isn’t an outrageous proposition. My ancestors were English coal miners who came to America because the LDS church promised them a better life way back in the 1800s.
Is this bribing people to join? Sure! However, we’ve done it from day one.
If the Brethren are smart, they’ll do this. People will believe ANYTHING if you improve their lives.
It would be wonderful if the Mormon Church did what you suggest ( fighting addiction and ending poverty.)
At the end of the day, the value of a religion is in how it transforms lives. What are its fruits?
The Church could swallow their pride and abandon belief in the BOM as literal history. That would make it easier for people to join.
@@bossendenwoodconvict
I’m not sure if the historicity of scripture really bothers people. It tends to bother Ex-Mormons, but I’m not sure if the general public cares as much. I don’t meet many Christians who are deeply bothered by the historicity of Jesus. I don’t believe most people probe into religion deeply. I think that’s a smaller subset of people.
Secular Mormon, I call myself a Christian Atheist after joining and leaving Mormonism. I kinda relate to the title.
3:09:11 I would love to hear you discuss this more in depth.
Mormon doctrine: do in 3 hours what should take 1. :)
True!
Roger is a treasure.
Thank you
Please, could you put subtitles in English?
A fascinating interview!
Rodger seems like a smart guy who talks like some of my old business school professors. "Everything is Business." The truth of the matter is that is just one lens to look at something through. I do think that is it helpful to think of the LDS Church as a corporation, but that isn't how they market themselves.
There is a huge difference between how you would treat a business and a church or a wealthy individual and a Church. When I deal with a business or individual, I give them money for a product or service and have little to no expectation for how they will use that money. It doesn't work like that with a church.
Though it is often helpful to think about the relationship between an individual and a church as a customer and product, it is category different.
The "Think of the church like a business" is a really great analogy, but not an all-encompassing one.
With all this in mind, it seems that there is consensus on this panel (and with many viewers) that Jesus really is not at the head of the Church and that there is no communication between the head of the Church and Jesus like we see in depictions of Joseph Smith and God the Father and Jesus Christ. Am I correct? I say that because the Church leadership are strategizing like an Executive Board of a corporation in order to survive as an entity, whether it means changing its actual religious beliefs to make itself more appealing to potential members (those who are not yet affiliated). Current members may have problems with changing the belief systems they grew up with, but such changes are/were/will be necessary in order for the Church to survive. Nothing revelatory about that in my mind. This smashes to bits the concept of Jesus being the head of the Church and divine revelation to the Church leadership.
Brilliant! So will they rewrite mormon doctrine to say revelation instead of translation. Will they admit to the absurdity and lies of their history and apologize. Will Mormonism confess with a contrite spirit ask for forgiveness and make recompense? Will people forgive and forget will a fraud ever truly be remade to fly? I arrived at the same thinking, I know Mormonism is not Technically true but if you imagine if it were would it be a good idea would it be functional?
No apologies will be forthcoming. They will only continue to put out slippery new whitewashed accounts redoing the problems. They will feign affection, sincerity and holiness which they have not. They will do this just as they have done before to the young ones coming up not knowing the truth. They will rob them too of the true Christ, the true Father, and the true gospel of salvation which is good news. They are liars like their master!
Never been Mormon, so bare with me. I'm not sure his reframe did anything more than explain why he doesn't have a testimony. And if you don't have a testimony, and you don't believe the dogma, then you lost your faith.
I've listened to this a few times, so if anyone wants to school me please do so. Because I truly want to understand.
Matter of linguistic taste. I spent over 50 years in the church learning the doctrine, dogma, the practices. As I stepped back I did not lose those valuable things. I have a testimony of those doctrines, dogmas and practices. However, I have chosen to continue evolving and incorporating new truths that have to do with social issues, which conflict with the church’s conservative policies.
Woah Utah is a theocracy? Saying the quiet part out loud..
@Joshua Davis
The profet Joseph Smith created a "Council of 50" for the express purpose of having himself crowned "King of the Political Kingdom of God on Earth".
(This is recounted in the multiple-volume, Church-sanctioned book "History of the Church", by B.H. Roberts.)
With that said, this religion has always been a theocracy: avoiding the use of that word for obvious(?) reasons.
@@ahashdahnagila6884 Absolutely correct, my friend, but most in the Church today know nothing about the Council of 50 and certainly cannot name anyone in it, but interesting how "secretive" this cabal is and why? Invariably, they are ALL wealthy, influential business and/or civic leaders, such as Jon Huntsman.
Such financial wizardry in the Church! Yeah, when you have millions of people coughing up 10% of their incomes, it can add right up . . . and you don't have to be too smart to make a lot more money off of investments. Monopolies usually do pretty well, although they are basically run 100% on pure politics . . . because they don't have to compete with anyone / anything else.
Wealthy church vs Wealthy person. That is a false equivalency. People earn money with the understanding it is for their own benefit. A church claims that they are receiving money to help people and further the message of God.
Secular Mormons... so a group of people who know it isn't true but go along with the bigotry, historical racism, shaming and false claims of divinity because it's a fun group of people? Great guest but this idea is appalling.
Do they show the losses in numbers in records?🌹
All's I can say been in the church almost thirty years now, and church members of record as been 15million for years now!
@@user-bw3fl7fj9w More lies and chronic exaggerations.
This seems the path of the RLDS (Community of Christ) and they are dying on the vine. Christianity isn’t growing in the West (for every new Catholic, 5+ are leaving), but same Church is growing at 200% in some African countries). So Christianity isn’t declining globally. I love Roger, but it’s just not realistic to believe you can secularize Mormonism (this is what Jefferson thought you could do with Christianity. He even created his own New Testament for the Enlightenment Age, and it went nowhere). It would be like the Christian world saying, “you know Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead. It was all a hoax. The disciples were deluded.” It’s cutting off the branch you are sitting on. He is putting a business model upon religious belief (which is much more nuanced reality), e.g,, the Mormon Church will educate you and teach you how to make loads of money. Sounds like a Trump University model.
Just another apologist. For a church that claims to be a church of Christ, what about the sermon about the camel passing through the eye of a needle? This reminds me of evangelicals and their prosperity gospel. When the church leadership was pushing Prop 8, they shook their members down hard to pay for it. Turns out they had more than enough money to pay for it. They didn't want to spend their money, they wanted their members to pay - above and beyond their tithing obligations.
After graduatiing from BYU Left LDS marriage and thought system & organization in 1967. Began studying the new teachings of Jesus that came forth in 1974 that present an entirely on different and highly personal level that has nothing to do with a church structure and ritualized group doctrine. These new teachings based are not based a collective perceptions based on duality and religious beliefs that keep us separate. Being
the biggest and the richest church will not lead it's members to enlightment and healing of the mind as we return our mind. We do not a structure or organization called a church to do this. Praciticing true forgiveness is the way of remembering we are one with God and have never left Him.