After I left the church, I actually found Anthony's videos before I found Mormon Stories and the exmormon community. It was so refreshing to find a group of people who were using a rational approach to finding truth. This will be one of my favorite weeks of MS videos ever.
My devout sister lived in Turkey for about ten years. She loved to travel the country and to visit the apostles and Biblical sites there. The hospitality of the Turkish people is legendary. Think good Samaritan here. We all got some beautiful Turkish robes one year for Christmas. As an aside I used to be Mrs. Dempster. That street is named after a great uncle. Love Chicago! This is such a timely series of podcasts with the holidays here. Thank you!
My husband is a pro at SE style communication in all aspects of his life. I wish he had time for a podcast. It's one reason I married him-- he has a natural, open conversational style where everyone is heard, yet challenged in a safe space. He can make people laugh while doing it, too. I am an introvert who was not raised to even put much thought into others' opinions being heard. One reason I left Morminism, is because I became a journalist and had to do more of an assertive approach with asking questions and caring about what people say, who might be different than me. I fell in love with how it added more critical thought to my life. I am trying hard to socialize more and get better at the techniques. It takes a lot of practice for those of us who were not raised to be as open-minded.
I only know of Street Epistemology because of Anthony. I had an easy transition from a mild Methodist to an atheist only two years ago. I feel fortunate.
I'm so glad he mentioned Recovery From Religion. They were the group I reached out to for support when I finally realized I had zero belief in the LDS church or any kind of god but didn't know how to let my mom know I'd decided to officially remove my membership records.
I want to learn SE for work. I’m in sr corporate leadership and I feel this style suits my personality. I feel I have a high degree of emotional intelligence and this communication style coincides with that in my opinion. I’m now a huge supporter. I can’t offer time which I don’t have as a single dad, but I will support financially. Keep driving Anthony and Mormon Stories! Don’t fade away, we need unification! // 39 year Mormon, now friendly atheist //
One of the problems is people might think logically about their held belief which is great but then pretty quickly Cycle back into that original belief and you can end up right back where you started. This is usually what happens even if they are willing to engage. But it’s not impossible. All it takes sometimes is something to click then one thing leads to another … but it’s quite rare. Incredible interview 👍🏼
Hearing him say hr doesn't think he will interview again breaks my heart. I found his videos early 2021 and I missed all the live work. Thanks Anthony for all the inspiration!
About a working definition of the word "belief" ... I like this one... "Beliefs are a mind's efforts to map reality with its thoughts" So under this definition any mind that has any sort of "mental map of reality" has beliefs. I like this definition because it includes basically ALL humans regardless of their position on religious matters, as well as many non-human animals (Pavlov and Skinner would not have gotten very far if dogs and pigeons had no mental map of reality). I also like it because it lets me reparse someone saying "I believe such and such " into them saying "I think such and such is actually real". Which converts beliefs into claims about reality and therefore legitimizes them undergoing analysis. It prevents people starting a sentence with "I believe ..." as a mechanism for thought stopping or moving their conclusions into a space that is beyond examination. This definition is also compatible with application of a confidence scale where that is useful. I got this definition from some random RUclips video featuring Sam Harris way back in the day. I don't know if it originates with him or where he may have gotten it.
Yep, Maps of Meaning is literally the title of Jordan Peterson's book which by his own admission is the fourth book on the same topic. Carl Jung first, then Joseph Campbell, I forget the third. Beliefs are our maps of meaning to help us chart our course through life. Without them we are adrift with no direction, or constantly changing directions which is disorienting and can be hard psychologically. Instability of our belief/meaning systems is not fun to deal with.
@@monocharismatic I'm afraid that you have misunderstood me entirely. No where did I use the word "meaning". Meaning, as construed by Jung, or Frankel, or Peterson, does not enter in to it at all. I said maps of reality. It has everything to do with what a mind THINKS is real compared to what is ACTUALLY real. A mind can be correct about what is real or it can be incorrect, each with various consequences for survival and/or thriving. But while thinking a thing is real does qualify that thing as a belief for that mind, the belief alone can not make a thing real. Reality is real whether we think so or not. Creatures that are better at mapping reality tend to have advantages which permit them to out compete creatures which are worse at mapping reality. Though some organisms seem to do just fine with no minds capable of mapping reality at all ... so there is that. Having a mind myself I suppose that I'm biased in favor of seeing the advantages of such. ;)
@@JP-JustSayin Thanks for elaborating. I'll try to digest your explanation against my theories and understanding. But I wanted to make sure to respond by apologizing about not catching the diff between reality and meaning. Thanks for pointing that out kindly. I am multilingual, and while fluent in English, it is not my mother tongue. Thus I may assign/interpret certain words in my own way. Milan Kundera has an interesting linguistic discussion in ”Unbearable lightness of being" around difference for the word compassion in different languages, for example. Edit: title of the book
@@monocharismatic no worries. I honestly thought that perhaps you were being a troll by keying in on my passing mention of Sam Harris and then immediately bringing up Jordan Peterson's books ... like maybe you were trying to push my buttons or something. I'm much relieved to find that it was a language barrier and not a case of intentional trolling. Best regards.
@@JP-JustSayin As I reread your explanation of maps of reality I think it is not language per se, but the fact that I never thought of the concept of mapping reality, but I did hear about the concept of maps of meaning. I honestly haven't read Peterson's book (though I think I understand his message about the concept), or Jung, or Frankle. And this is first time I hear Sam Harris name, sorry. I think I mentally missed 'reality' because I automatically assume that our brain is an intermediary in constructing it and thus reality is an interpretation anyway, thus I jumped to meaning as that is the next step in our thinking. I think we try to inject meaning into reality we perceive nearly always, seldom just observing it without an attempt at interpretation. That's where some animals may be closer to a map of reality than humans because they don't proceed to inject as much meaning into it and are more reactionary to what is real in their "map". And, like you say, some animals have a very rudimentary map or none at all. Interesting thing to ponder, for sure. Thanks!
Drew from the Genetically Modified Skeptic channel also provides great atheist content. He even had a few recent interviews with Bart Ehrman. This was a great episode! Huge fan of SE and Anthony, this was a dream come true!!
Really enjoyed hearing from Anthony and having many of my questions for him asked and answered. Love the crossover of MSP and SE. Hoping the dream of a movement within the Ex-Mo community becomes a reality.
"I want to speak to religious people. Where [in Texas] can I reliably find them?" ... this was not a laugh line but I burst out laughing. ... Outdoors ... LOL
Using the "steelman" technique in correctly restating what was said to you seems vitally important. If you go for the "strawman" technique of apologetics, it will turn off the interviewee.
This guy seems unflappable. I wonder what it takes to get him riled up :) I’ve heard good things about his SE videos - I think I’ll go watch one right after this
The skeptics guide to the universe is my favorite podcast (sorry John). They're out of Connecticut, except for Cara Santa Maria who is in LA, but is an exmo from Texas. You should try to get her on.
Interesting to hear John admit he just likes believing in something (free will) whether it is true or not. ruclips.net/video/Q8PG9a48V7E/видео.html Makes me wonder what I believe in just because it feels better. This can give us empathy for others who also believe in things without good or even contrary to the evidence just because it feels better. If we believe in things just because we like to, I imagine an important factor is 'what decisions am I making based on this insufficiently supported belief?' In the end do we all just believe in what feels good and right to us? I stopped believing in LDS truth claims because they stopped feeling true. What I do believe in now is what feels best and right to me...
@John - always been curious... Was your "Reply All" episode one of the needle-moving events for your podcast, or a non-event? It's where I first learned about Mormon Stories.
In the blurbs of former Prof. Boghossian, Richard Dawkins labels the former's approach as "techniques of friendly persuasion", and jokingly muses he may have been more effective had he embraced the same amiable approach. The sad story of cancellation and public lynching of Boghossian by idiotic extremists in academia is also worth following as a cautionary tale (fanaticism is alive and well at both ends of the political spectrum). No good deed goes unpunished in this world of increased connected stupidity.
found you from leah reminis scientology podcast. One of my best friends is mormon. How much of the extremist values that make people leave are prevalent in the church and is that community big? or is most of the community progressive. He is very progressive in the church and makes it seem like the progressive community is the majority. ie lgbt community and other progressive ideologies.
I think it depends on where you live. Utah mormon speaking here, I don't see progressive membership as a majority at all. And it's definitely not progressive from church leadership. Many things have changed in the church in the last 50 years but relatively speaking I would say we are pretty conservative bunch.
I had to chuckle when he said "we don't sent out people on a two year mission" my uncle (aka my grandfasters cousin) went for a total of about 20 years, but at least as a priste he was a paid church employ and as far as I understand it was more humanitarian focused. I also experinced the slowly fading belive. I stoped beliving in the cathlic church when I was 14 and didn't leave until I was 31 since I didn't want to hurt my mom. At that time I paid 42 EUR in church taxes a month just to not upset my mom.
56:56 and 58:34 Religion has enjoyed a privileged, protected status for many centuries. The "new atheists" astutely and articulately provided pushback against an area of human behavior that was long considered immune from criticism. Safeguarded religious institutions and their congregants weren't accustomed to having their beliefs scrutinized for accuracy and legitimacy. In reality, it should be no more of a taboo in expressing a dissenting opinion about someone's faith claims as it is in articulating a viewpoint about a person's taste in music, food, art or politics.
💙 Great interview. Anthony seems genuine, but that's just a feeling. Doubt is a gift? Really?! Or is it a curse? ... I guess it could be both if you let the 'right doubt' influence you. But how to Know which doubt will benefit your life. (I can hear the spirit of Carah say "pray about it" haha) The idea that there is Nothing after we die sounds horrific to me. Since there is no way to prove this "Nothingness", this keeps my hope and belief that there will be a 'Something' alive.
1st Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Something about this feels really yucky to me, which is weird because I am agnostic and loooove talking to people about beliefs, life experiences, etc. I think it's because it *feels* like people practicing SE come into it from the perspective that they are smarter than the person they are talking to and that their perspective is somehow more enlightened. Also, I feel it should have been mentioned that Boghossian has been recently involved in some very questionable and potentially harmful academic practices, such as publishing multiple hoax research papers on gender studies and other sensitive topics.
I've watched a handful or more of Anthony's videos ( including the ones you've included already ) and this interview fills in some blanks of where he is coming from, which is appreciated. It has been beneficial in instructing how to engage in another style of conversation, especially with those who might be quickly defensive, only argumentative, poor listeners, or completely ignorant of classical debate. ( I'm personally not "offended" by a more blunt and direct back-and-forth style as long long as both parties fight fair and listen and respond honestly with each other. Seldom happens, at least in the States, IMO. ) I'll say this: No matter how much he dismisses the notion of being an Evangelist for Atheism, it is EXACTLY what he is doing! LoL. There might be some cognitive dissonance going on there where he doesn't want to be associated with any "religious" activity whatsoever, but if he walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then....yeah. From Personal Experience: Back in college I was part of a Christian student group where we were instructed to go out on campus with "surveys" to engage with fellow students about their world-view. It was non-threatening, non-preachy, then at the end we would ask if they were open to an explanation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What I objected to was how we sold it: We were prepped to say, "We're just doing a survey to get your thoughts on life, then we will go back and tabulate the results for our study." A half-truth. No "tabulation" going on. I found out by asking the uncomfortable questions and wasn't satisfied with the hemming and hawing of the answers. So...I ended up being forthright with people: "We're wondering if you'd be open to our sharing a bit about Jesus Christ and having a conversation." People were more open than not. My point being then and now: Be honest. I sincerely appreciate Anthony's S.E. approach, but he is an admitted Activist! Yet, in this interview his pushing aside that he is an evangelist comes off as sneaky and disingenuous. I personally lose respect for anyone, Christian or Atheist, who pulls that. [ FTR: I still am a Believer, and honestly want the world to believe in the Christ of the Catholic / Protestant / Orthodox Church, and I am one of the "harmed" by a local Christian community that Anthony alludes to. I haven't given up on God, although Hitch sure threw a lot of barbs and hard challenges that I ran across in his debates that served some Dark Nights of the Soul. It exposed some sand in my foundation, not that my belief system was completely weak already since I've always been searching and pondering non-conventional, contrarian questions since my youth. Which hasn't been very popular at times in Christian communities. The cost is worth it. ] Anthony absolutely wants the world to turn away from Religion, correct? More of the Rationalist-Materialist world-view without any Being / Creator / God. Fine. Two cheers for Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to Not be Religious. Anthony's methodology is still fundamentally evangelistic in spirit, what he is doing. Just f*n admit it, at least in an interview. There are various types of "evangelism", not just one look and approach. Otherwise, his "curiosity" with strangers in Street Epistemology borders on condescension. He IS engaging in a form of debate, albeit genteel. Yet, it is adversarial in the academic sense. P.S. - I miss Hitch, and found him mostly intellectually ( and spiritually ) stimulating. Respect also to Peter Boghossian, an ally against Wokeism / Cancel Culture / Far Left Neo-Marxism; glad he moved on from Portland State and that Authoritarian nightmare.
The word "atheist" doesn't conger up good thoughts. How about "Non-Prophet"? Another point is that the word atheist implies that you know, much like Christian fundamentalists. It's not a statement of humility to say that you know, and people are attracted to humility. Agnostic is a more humble term meaning that you don't know either way. I called myself an agnostic for about 5 years when I didn't believe in God, but I didn't "know" that God didn't exist. And then there's the issue of "What do you mean by "God"?I may "know" that a particular definition of God isn't real, but I might not be aware of all the various ways the word "God" can be understood. An example is the Mormon definition of God as having a human body just like us. That definition can be seen as unbelievable without denying the Buddhist concept of "First Cause". I've met Buddhists who call themselves atheists because they attach the word "God" to the Christian concept. But they affirm the "First Cause". SE can be enthusiastically embraced by anyone who values people learning more about their own motivations for believing things, and my sense is that most people don't really know why they believe things. Attaching the word "atheist" to SE will kill it, at least in the U.S. It's really hard to unite people around what they don't believe. Communities need a positive core.
Atheist means you aren't convinced of the claim (god/s religion/theism/deism). Atheism is not claiming that there isn't a God. It's not believing someone's claim that God is real, but it's also not believing a claim that God isn't real. The word atheist conjures up great thoughts to me 😤 of people who have more important priorities in life. Also, Gnosticism is about knowledge. Theism is about belief. They are completely different.
@@pbjtime321 "Atheist" only tells us what someone does not believe, not what he is for. When atheists have been in control of countries, like the USSR and China, they did a lot of bad stuff to rival the bad stuff of religious rulers. So doing away with religious belief is a roll of the dice as to how society will be benefited or not. But I don't think that's going to happen. Religion roared back in Russia after Communism fell, and China's leaders will eventually see the need for religion. My wife's Chinese and I know how deep their religious beliefs go. Chinese beliefs are nothing like Christian religious structure.
I can't listen to someone who shows such ignorance of Catholicism and yet degrades it. I typically enjoy your guests because they took the time to research their faith background, even when that research leads them to become agnostic or athiest. But Anthony's outright misrepresentation of Catholicism turns me off to anything he has to say on any other faith or subject. I don't trust that he has any accurate knowledge and thus doesn't have the foundation to speak on a topic.
I was disappointed in the characterization of Catholicism as well and I'm an Ex-Catholic. I think it was actually Jon who suggested that Catholics believe less than others in high demand religions. The belief is there. I would say that many Catholics just have less of an obsession over the details, rituals, and rules. There is no magic formula, it's a journey. Plus we actually get forgiven which apparently you don't seem to get, from the Church at least, in Mormonism.
I disagree. It was a really good interview and I think 99% of the viewership would agree. How was John out of his element? He's interviewed thousands of people.
Anthony has suuuuuch good vibes. Kind eyes. This interview was everything.
I also lovvvvve how excited John and Carah clearly were! 🤣
Thanks Paige!!
After I left the church, I actually found Anthony's videos before I found Mormon Stories and the exmormon community. It was so refreshing to find a group of people who were using a rational approach to finding truth. This will be one of my favorite weeks of MS videos ever.
My devout sister lived in Turkey for about ten years. She loved to travel the country and to visit the apostles and Biblical sites there. The hospitality of the Turkish people is legendary. Think good Samaritan here. We all got some beautiful Turkish robes one year for Christmas. As an aside I used to be Mrs. Dempster. That street is named after a great uncle. Love Chicago!
This is such a timely series of podcasts with the holidays here. Thank you!
This was awesome! Looking forward to the rest of the series.
My husband is a pro at SE style communication in all aspects of his life. I wish he had time for a podcast. It's one reason I married him-- he has a natural, open conversational style where everyone is heard, yet challenged in a safe space. He can make people laugh while doing it, too. I am an introvert who was not raised to even put much thought into others' opinions being heard. One reason I left Morminism, is because I became a journalist and had to do more of an assertive approach with asking questions and caring about what people say, who might be different than me. I fell in love with how it added more critical thought to my life. I am trying hard to socialize more and get better at the techniques. It takes a lot of practice for those of us who were not raised to be as open-minded.
That might be the highest level of SE communication, when you can naturally weave it into your engagements yet still be your true authentic self.
I only know of Street Epistemology because of Anthony. I had an easy transition from a mild Methodist to an atheist only two years ago. I feel fortunate.
I'm so glad he mentioned Recovery From Religion. They were the group I reached out to for support when I finally realized I had zero belief in the LDS church or any kind of god but didn't know how to let my mom know I'd decided to officially remove my membership records.
I want to learn SE for work. I’m in sr corporate leadership and I feel this style suits my personality. I feel I have a high degree of emotional intelligence and this communication style coincides with that in my opinion.
I’m now a huge supporter. I can’t offer time which I don’t have as a single dad, but I will support financially.
Keep driving Anthony and Mormon Stories! Don’t fade away, we need unification!
// 39 year Mormon, now friendly atheist //
I'm embarrassed to admit that I've yelled at both of my parents for their ignorant beliefs. This modern Socrates is helping me learn to keep my cool.
One of the problems is people might think logically about their held belief which is great but then pretty quickly Cycle back into that original belief and you can end up right back where you started. This is usually what happens even if they are willing to engage. But it’s not impossible. All it takes sometimes is something to click then one thing leads to another … but it’s quite rare. Incredible interview 👍🏼
Hearing him say hr doesn't think he will interview again breaks my heart. I found his videos early 2021 and I missed all the live work. Thanks Anthony for all the inspiration!
Wonderful! Something to make the world a better place for all of us!
VERY good interview.
Wow. Three worlds collide. This show and Anthony, but then noticing the sticker on the laptop! Small podcasting world.
Where is the button to donate to SE?
About a working definition of the word "belief" ... I like this one... "Beliefs are a mind's efforts to map reality with its thoughts"
So under this definition any mind that has any sort of "mental map of reality" has beliefs. I like this definition because it includes basically ALL humans regardless of their position on religious matters, as well as many non-human animals (Pavlov and Skinner would not have gotten very far if dogs and pigeons had no mental map of reality).
I also like it because it lets me reparse someone saying "I believe such and such " into them saying "I think such and such is actually real". Which converts beliefs into claims about reality and therefore legitimizes them undergoing analysis. It prevents people starting a sentence with "I believe ..." as a mechanism for thought stopping or moving their conclusions into a space that is beyond examination.
This definition is also compatible with application of a confidence scale where that is useful.
I got this definition from some random RUclips video featuring Sam Harris way back in the day. I don't know if it originates with him or where he may have gotten it.
Yep, Maps of Meaning is literally the title of Jordan Peterson's book which by his own admission is the fourth book on the same topic. Carl Jung first, then Joseph Campbell, I forget the third. Beliefs are our maps of meaning to help us chart our course through life. Without them we are adrift with no direction, or constantly changing directions which is disorienting and can be hard psychologically. Instability of our belief/meaning systems is not fun to deal with.
@@monocharismatic I'm afraid that you have misunderstood me entirely. No where did I use the word "meaning". Meaning, as construed by Jung, or Frankel, or Peterson, does not enter in to it at all.
I said maps of reality. It has everything to do with what a mind THINKS is real compared to what is ACTUALLY real.
A mind can be correct about what is real or it can be incorrect, each with various consequences for survival and/or thriving. But while thinking a thing is real does qualify that thing as a belief for that mind, the belief alone can not make a thing real. Reality is real whether we think so or not.
Creatures that are better at mapping reality tend to have advantages which permit them to out compete creatures which are worse at mapping reality. Though some organisms seem to do just fine with no minds capable of mapping reality at all ... so there is that. Having a mind myself I suppose that I'm biased in favor of seeing the advantages of such.
;)
@@JP-JustSayin Thanks for elaborating. I'll try to digest your explanation against my theories and understanding. But I wanted to make sure to respond by apologizing about not catching the diff between reality and meaning. Thanks for pointing that out kindly. I am multilingual, and while fluent in English, it is not my mother tongue. Thus I may assign/interpret certain words in my own way. Milan Kundera has an interesting linguistic discussion in ”Unbearable lightness of being" around difference for the word compassion in different languages, for example.
Edit: title of the book
@@monocharismatic no worries. I honestly thought that perhaps you were being a troll by keying in on my passing mention of Sam Harris and then immediately bringing up Jordan Peterson's books ... like maybe you were trying to push my buttons or something.
I'm much relieved to find that it was a language barrier and not a case of intentional trolling.
Best regards.
@@JP-JustSayin As I reread your explanation of maps of reality I think it is not language per se, but the fact that I never thought of the concept of mapping reality, but I did hear about the concept of maps of meaning. I honestly haven't read Peterson's book (though I think I understand his message about the concept), or Jung, or Frankle. And this is first time I hear Sam Harris name, sorry.
I think I mentally missed 'reality' because I automatically assume that our brain is an intermediary in constructing it and thus reality is an interpretation anyway, thus I jumped to meaning as that is the next step in our thinking. I think we try to inject meaning into reality we perceive nearly always, seldom just observing it without an attempt at interpretation. That's where some animals may be closer to a map of reality than humans because they don't proceed to inject as much meaning into it and are more reactionary to what is real in their "map". And, like you say, some animals have a very rudimentary map or none at all.
Interesting thing to ponder, for sure. Thanks!
Drew from the Genetically Modified Skeptic channel also provides great atheist content. He even had a few recent interviews with Bart Ehrman. This was a great episode! Huge fan of SE and Anthony, this was a dream come true!!
Street epistemology is similar to root cause analysis; getting to the heart of the matter.
Really enjoyed hearing from Anthony and having many of my questions for him asked and answered. Love the crossover of MSP and SE. Hoping the dream of a movement within the Ex-Mo community becomes a reality.
I just set up a monthly donation to SE International. Thanks for inspiring me to do so!
"I want to speak to religious people. Where [in Texas] can I reliably find them?"
... this was not a laugh line but I burst out laughing. ... Outdoors ... LOL
Visit the cemetery.
At its core, Street Epistemology is a acquiescent technique for fostering people to think about how to think, and to help people learn how to learn.
Love it!!!
I do not see the SE donation button promised at the end of the podcast. Am I missing it?
As an atheist and also a woman I find aggressive atheism extremely off-putting. It's so often paired with misogyny too.
Using the "steelman" technique in correctly restating what was said to you seems vitally important. If you go for the "strawman" technique of apologetics, it will turn off the interviewee.
This guy seems unflappable. I wonder what it takes to get him riled up :)
I’ve heard good things about his SE videos - I think I’ll go watch one right after this
I had trouble getting a soda out of a machine a few weeks ago and it riled me up. But that's rare.
Coffee machines can be like that …
The skeptics guide to the universe is my favorite podcast (sorry John). They're out of Connecticut, except for Cara Santa Maria who is in LA, but is an exmo from Texas. You should try to get her on.
Working on it!!!
Interesting to hear John admit he just likes believing in something (free will) whether it is true or not. ruclips.net/video/Q8PG9a48V7E/видео.html Makes me wonder what I believe in just because it feels better. This can give us empathy for others who also believe in things without good or even contrary to the evidence just because it feels better. If we believe in things just because we like to, I imagine an important factor is 'what decisions am I making based on this insufficiently supported belief?'
In the end do we all just believe in what feels good and right to us? I stopped believing in LDS truth claims because they stopped feeling true. What I do believe in now is what feels best and right to me...
@John - always been curious... Was your "Reply All" episode one of the needle-moving events for your podcast, or a non-event? It's where I first learned about Mormon Stories.
Same! And I've wondered since as well. (Was it just you, me, and, like, five other nerds? No wrong answers, just wondering!)
In the blurbs of former Prof. Boghossian, Richard Dawkins labels the former's approach as "techniques of friendly persuasion", and jokingly muses he may have been more effective had he embraced the same amiable approach. The sad story of cancellation and public lynching of Boghossian by idiotic extremists in academia is also worth following as a cautionary tale (fanaticism is alive and well at both ends of the political spectrum). No good deed goes unpunished in this world of increased connected stupidity.
found you from leah reminis scientology podcast. One of my best friends is mormon. How much of the extremist values that make people leave are prevalent in the church and is that community big? or is most of the community progressive. He is very progressive in the church and makes it seem like the progressive community is the majority. ie lgbt community and other progressive ideologies.
I think it depends on where you live. Utah mormon speaking here, I don't see progressive membership as a majority at all. And it's definitely not progressive from church leadership. Many things have changed in the church in the last 50 years but relatively speaking I would say we are pretty conservative bunch.
@@stevehamilton85 thank you for your response!!
What's your take on Integral Theory, Ken Wilber, Stan Grof, Breathwork? I am a Panentheism, how would you approach that?
I had to chuckle when he said "we don't sent out people on a two year mission" my uncle (aka my grandfasters cousin) went for a total of about 20 years, but at least as a priste he was a paid church employ and as far as I understand it was more humanitarian focused.
I also experinced the slowly fading belive. I stoped beliving in the cathlic church when I was 14 and didn't leave until I was 31 since I didn't want to hurt my mom. At that time I paid 42 EUR in church taxes a month just to not upset my mom.
56:56 and 58:34
Religion has enjoyed a privileged, protected status for many centuries. The "new atheists" astutely and articulately provided pushback against an area of human behavior that was long considered immune from criticism. Safeguarded religious institutions and their congregants weren't accustomed to having their beliefs scrutinized for accuracy and legitimacy. In reality, it should be no more of a taboo in expressing a dissenting opinion about someone's faith claims as it is in articulating a viewpoint about a person's taste in music, food, art or politics.
💙 Great interview.
Anthony seems genuine, but that's just a feeling.
Doubt is a gift? Really?! Or is it a curse? ... I guess it could be both if you let the 'right doubt' influence you. But how to Know which doubt will benefit your life. (I can hear the spirit of Carah say "pray about it" haha)
The idea that there is Nothing after we die sounds horrific to me. Since there is no way to prove this "Nothingness", this keeps my hope and belief that there will be a 'Something' alive.
Close your eyes and picture Tony Stark while Anthony is talking
Great interview, but I think John pounded one too many pots of coffee lol.
1st Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
I would love to see Anthony talk to an anti-Vaxxer.
Where’s the link to an SE donation button? If something is coming, please pin a comment at the top.
Something about this feels really yucky to me, which is weird because I am agnostic and loooove talking to people about beliefs, life experiences, etc. I think it's because it *feels* like people practicing SE come into it from the perspective that they are smarter than the person they are talking to and that their perspective is somehow more enlightened.
Also, I feel it should have been mentioned that Boghossian has been recently involved in some very questionable and potentially harmful academic practices, such as publishing multiple hoax research papers on gender studies and other sensitive topics.
Yeah. The Boghossian stuff is deeply troubling to me as well.
@@mormonstories I made it to the end of this episode and see that John did bring up the problematic studies done by Boghossian. Good job, John!
I've watched a handful or more of Anthony's videos ( including the ones you've included already ) and this interview fills in some blanks of where he is coming from, which is appreciated. It has been beneficial in instructing how to engage in another style of conversation, especially with those who might be quickly defensive, only argumentative, poor listeners, or completely ignorant of classical debate. ( I'm personally not "offended" by a more blunt and direct back-and-forth style as long long as both parties fight fair and listen and respond honestly with each other. Seldom happens, at least in the States, IMO. ) I'll say this: No matter how much he dismisses the notion of being an Evangelist for Atheism, it is EXACTLY what he is doing! LoL. There might be some cognitive dissonance going on there where he doesn't want to be associated with any "religious" activity whatsoever, but if he walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then....yeah.
From Personal Experience: Back in college I was part of a Christian student group where we were instructed to go out on campus with "surveys" to engage with fellow students about their world-view. It was non-threatening, non-preachy, then at the end we would ask if they were open to an explanation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What I objected to was how we sold it: We were prepped to say, "We're just doing a survey to get your thoughts on life, then we will go back and tabulate the results for our study." A half-truth. No "tabulation" going on. I found out by asking the uncomfortable questions and wasn't satisfied with the hemming and hawing of the answers. So...I ended up being forthright with people: "We're wondering if you'd be open to our sharing a bit about Jesus Christ and having a conversation." People were more open than not. My point being then and now: Be honest. I sincerely appreciate Anthony's S.E. approach, but he is an admitted Activist! Yet, in this interview his pushing aside that he is an evangelist comes off as sneaky and disingenuous. I personally lose respect for anyone, Christian or Atheist, who pulls that.
[ FTR: I still am a Believer, and honestly want the world to believe in the Christ of the Catholic / Protestant / Orthodox Church, and I am one of the "harmed" by a local Christian community that Anthony alludes to. I haven't given up on God, although Hitch sure threw a lot of barbs and hard challenges that I ran across in his debates that served some Dark Nights of the Soul. It exposed some sand in my foundation, not that my belief system was completely weak already since I've always been searching and pondering non-conventional, contrarian questions since my youth. Which hasn't been very popular at times in Christian communities. The cost is worth it. ]
Anthony absolutely wants the world to turn away from Religion, correct? More of the Rationalist-Materialist world-view without any Being / Creator / God. Fine. Two cheers for Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to Not be Religious. Anthony's methodology is still fundamentally evangelistic in spirit, what he is doing. Just f*n admit it, at least in an interview. There are various types of "evangelism", not just one look and approach. Otherwise, his "curiosity" with strangers in Street Epistemology borders on condescension. He IS engaging in a form of debate, albeit genteel. Yet, it is adversarial in the academic sense.
P.S. - I miss Hitch, and found him mostly intellectually ( and spiritually ) stimulating. Respect also to Peter Boghossian, an ally against Wokeism / Cancel Culture / Far Left Neo-Marxism; glad he moved on from Portland State and that Authoritarian nightmare.
The word "atheist" doesn't conger up good thoughts. How about "Non-Prophet"? Another point is that the word atheist implies that you know, much like Christian fundamentalists. It's not a statement of humility to say that you know, and people are attracted to humility. Agnostic is a more humble term meaning that you don't know either way. I called myself an agnostic for about 5 years when I didn't believe in God, but I didn't "know" that God didn't exist. And then there's the issue of "What do you mean by "God"?I may "know" that a particular definition of God isn't real, but I might not be aware of all the various ways the word "God" can be understood. An example is the Mormon definition of God as having a human body just like us. That definition can be seen as unbelievable without denying the Buddhist concept of "First Cause". I've met Buddhists who call themselves atheists because they attach the word "God" to the Christian concept. But they affirm the "First Cause". SE can be enthusiastically embraced by anyone who values people learning more about their own motivations for believing things, and my sense is that most people don't really know why they believe things. Attaching the word "atheist" to SE will kill it, at least in the U.S. It's really hard to unite people around what they don't believe. Communities need a positive core.
Atheist means you aren't convinced of the claim (god/s religion/theism/deism). Atheism is not claiming that there isn't a God. It's not believing someone's claim that God is real, but it's also not believing a claim that God isn't real. The word atheist conjures up great thoughts to me 😤 of people who have more important priorities in life.
Also, Gnosticism is about knowledge. Theism is about belief. They are completely different.
@@pbjtime321 "Atheist" only tells us what someone does not believe, not what he is for. When atheists have been in control of countries, like the USSR and China, they did a lot of bad stuff to rival the bad stuff of religious rulers. So doing away with religious belief is a roll of the dice as to how society will be benefited or not. But I don't think that's going to happen. Religion roared back in Russia after Communism fell, and China's leaders will eventually see the need for religion. My wife's Chinese and I know how deep their religious beliefs go. Chinese beliefs are nothing like Christian religious structure.
I can't listen to someone who shows such ignorance of Catholicism and yet degrades it. I typically enjoy your guests because they took the time to research their faith background, even when that research leads them to become agnostic or athiest. But Anthony's outright misrepresentation of Catholicism turns me off to anything he has to say on any other faith or subject. I don't trust that he has any accurate knowledge and thus doesn't have the foundation to speak on a topic.
What remark that he made showed the most ignorance?
I was disappointed in the characterization of Catholicism as well and I'm an Ex-Catholic. I think it was actually Jon who suggested that Catholics believe less than others in high demand religions. The belief is there. I would say that many Catholics just have less of an obsession over the details, rituals, and rules. There is no magic formula, it's a journey. Plus we actually get forgiven which apparently you don't seem to get, from the Church at least, in Mormonism.
John, this was a horrible interview! You should have let Cara do it. You were out of your element and it showed. Such a disappointment.
How so Susan?
I disagree. It was a really good interview and I think 99% of the viewership would agree. How was John out of his element? He's interviewed thousands of people.
This was one of the best interviews I've ever participated in. Deeeep dive with plenty of time to hash things out.
John really was curious and excited to speak with Anthony. It made me want to listen carefully