i worked as an engineer with many mormon engineers. yes, in many cases, my mormon colleagues displayed a noticeable lack of critical thinking skills often replaced with obedience to the mormon boss. engineering is critical thinking.
I have a friend who works for the DOD and his boss apparently likes to hire mormons because they tow the line, don't ask questions and follow the official narrative.
Thank YOU sir, for your open honesty. I myself am treading the waters of no longer believing in the literal truthfulness of the BOM/doctrine, yet trying to stay involved enough to be a loving support for the people I love most. My husband and I have adopted two of our grandchildren, and they ADORE primary! This struggle is very real. Thanks for sharing your insights.😊
It's not every day that your old mission companion does an interview on Mormon Stories! OK, so we were in a threesome, and only briefly, but I was a greenie, so it was memorable to me haha. Matter of fact, I think you introduced me to 돈가스 - like that was my official first home cooked meal in our mission house - and I still love that stuff! Looking forward to listening to this! I've read some of the comments and it sounds like it was a very good interview and I'm interested to see if there are any similarities with my own spiritual journey. Thanks for sharing your story, Jon!
Thank you Jonathan…..whoaaaa, uri hanguk mal kkaji he!!! That was a surprise. Thanks for everything. This is great stuff for me to share with my family. Jal kyeshiso! Ho Deok
Hi Jon, Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts and experiences! Your honesty and observations are most refreshing! Its always enlightening to hear of someone's journey on the road less traveled! I prayed for the most difficult mission I could endure... and received it! I left the Mormon religion a little over a year after serving a mission! I'm on my own journey, my own road less traveled, and I'm grateful for every second of it, as it made me who I am, and I very much appreciate that! Anything of great value is never easy, but wow, what a ride! LOL
Thank you, Jon. I was intrigued by your story and touched by your humble and loving responses to cruel and unjust treatment. May only good come out of the LDS religion for your family!
This guy needs to be called as prophet and the church would have a chance... what a solid human being! Love it, great podcast! .... Thank you Mormon Stories
Jon is very articulate, his thoughts and ideas are very clearly expressed and his life experiences have caused him to think a great deal about the religion of his birth! What he has learned and chosen to share is of great inside to anyone struggling with the same concepts in religion! One need not be a member of the same religion to learn from his experiences! His thoughts are his own, not a repeat of someone else's comments, and as such, they are a refreshing observation of someone currently within the struggle! This is one of the better programs I have watched; Jon is candid, honest, sincere and he shares his findings in a logical format that is easy to follow! What more can one ask of a guest speaker? I highly recommend weighing his experiences vs dogmas! The imperfect observer will assess them as he/she chooses.
Hi, It amazing to hear someone share the truth about his mission, as opposed to sugar coating it and omitting negative experiences! Sounds similar to my mission experience!
I always questioned and eyerolled the RM talks where these young men came home, grandstanding and acting like they changed the world. I didn't believe their missions were really that awesome. I'm awful.
@@amygreen758 ...the RMs--like all kids grateful to their folks--went and served (for mom, dad and the food they ate at home) What's an LDS boy s'posed to do? Disgrace their family by not going on the mission forced upon them (and weekly re-enforced since they were eight?).... the boy serves. He satisfies The Ward. He stays on some hell-hole mission. Hates it but hangs in there...Ma Pa and the Ward deserves his triumphant homecoming report. ...dumbass kid does a good-looking talk in Church. So what if it was a lie? Ma, Paw & the good Ward are happy and the poor manipulited RM kid may now enjoy his SHELL SHOCK been there. done that. I'm 68 and lived thru the Argentina East Mission gig ('73,'74) and I have NO REGRETS, NOT ONE about embellishing my homecoming talk--to protect mom & dad & The Ward from the shame of recieving a "failed' Elder
Compelling, honest, respectful. There was absolutely no sense of scorn or mocking in his answers to your questions concerning "a better Jesus" experience. I found that so refreshing. Unfortunately I can not say this about the interviewers. That is sad. Every person who comes to a place of personal decision in their faith journey has already experienced such a sometimes painful even agonizing array of emotions and responsibilities for the choice they commit to live by. If that includes a "better Jesus" it should be just as respected as a "non -literal" or for that manner a literal believer in whatever their choice. Gay, straight, orthodox, ect. This was a excellent guest to listen to. Articulate and humble. Thank you for having him.
As a non-Mormon, if a church pushed me to write letters of condemnation regarding a child of mine who doesn’t agree, or questions the authority’s demands of how to think, that would be the end of my association with that church! I’ve seen my Mothers continued love of my Brother save him. It does not ring as true to me for God to call for us to shun people due to their sharing different views.
That's how members in this family chose to handle their family affair. With no involvement of the church pushing them other than the backdrop of their religious believe. Pretty sure families round the world in many religious have ostracized others who defect. Not that I agree
The organization that teaches languages seriously is the Us State Dept. They have a system of language instruction that determines what a normal length of time to be in formal classes should be. They classify Korean, Japanese, Chinese, and Arabic as “hard” languages, so Foreign Service Officers who need to learn one of those languages is posted to language school for two years. That means five full days of language school each week for two years, the first year in Washington and the second year “in country.” That is how long it takes for most learners to get to just moderate fluency. Three months of language study is NOTHING when compared to what our diplomats, top military, and those in clandestine services go through. Their jobs depend on success in language study, and of course, success in the work you do when assigned abroad.
I had 9 weeks in the MTC and then was totally lost for the first year of my mission in Seoul, Korea. But I figured it out and was very good by the time I went home. Our mission president and his wife couldnt speak Korean hardly at all. It was embarrassing
Mormonism trains you to do a very specific thing in its language study programs. You definitely won't be negotiating any international agreements or even be able to function in a business setting.
@@randomchannel609 a few months in the MTC isn't useless but close. It's...teach them some very basic language and then throw them overboard. Sink or swim is a very effective method for those that don't sink. Motivation is always the key.
RE Korean Christians: Why do Mormons always seem surprised that other churches have missionary programs? My faith tradition is United Methodist. The Methodist Church began sending missionaries to Korea as early as 1884.
When he talked about avoiding coming home when his leg was injured, it reminded me of a young man in my home ward. He came home early on crutches and rumors were spreading that he came home for worthiness issues and the leg injury was a cover up. It's sad how much pressure we put on missionaries when they're really still kids trying to figure it out. I wish we could normalize coming home early if needed and be kinder to missionaries.
My brother left knowing my mom would pass away while he was gone. He planned to stay the full 2 years, but couldn't make it and came home 6 months early. The same thing happened to him. Years later he actually left which I never imagined!
I related to so much in this interview. Growing up outside the Morridor, difficult mission experiences, and trying for over a decade to walk the middle way. I too used my baby as a reason to leave meetings many times. 🤣 I couldn’t do it anymore and left in 2012 but sometimes wish I could have made it work. It’s still sad to me that the church pushes people away simply for thinking differently or asking questions. Best wishes to you going forward Brother Westover!
I’ve noticed that’s changed in some areas. At USU institute teachers would talk to me for an hour after class sometimes weekly. Hell we had one conversation just on jf Jesus would return with a beard or white hair. They had in-depth classes about polygamy and nothing was off limits. At snow college many professors would be like we don’t know all things and end the discussion. One time at a ysa event they had us write questions. I wrote why do we believe in a heavenly mother when the only scripture or church approved doctrine comes from a song or hymn that says there’s a heavenly mother. The stake president read my question and was like we’re out of time as mine was the last question and said let’s speak after church tomorrow. I said I’ll be going back to college so I can’t literally be there. But at usu we had a long discussion about it after class. Or seer stones. One Sunday at a singles branch the teacher was like Joseph just used the urim and thummin to translate. I said no Joseph also had and used seer stones. After class a 65 year old guy was like was that true. He’s like I had a friend that left the church cause anti Mormons showed him Joseph had seer stones. I’m like in institute they teach Joseph used seer stones too. Purely from an intellectual standpoint I find it good to have discussions and something doesn’t have to be pro or anti Mormon. It’s like let’s just talk history and leave belief at the door and talk about what’s documented. I remember reading about byu professors and the CES saying Joseph smith was wrong as Joseph beleueved in one hill cumorah but the CES believed Joseph was wrong and there’s two hill cumorahs and there wasn’t a repository in New York. It’s frustrating to see church workers totally say oh this is right or that’s wrong. It’s like they know more then Joseph a prophet. It’s like these people write the church manuals for Sunday school. No wonder why there’s tons of confusion or hypocrisy. They’re taking positions that’s total speculation from a century later. It’s like why would they do that? They assume the Book of Mormon happened in Central America. It’s like think about. If the Book of Mormon is real and there was massive changes to the land BYU professors could be totally wrong. If there was massive changes to the land there’s a possibility there was lakes in Nevada and other massive lakes etc that aren’t here today. But that requires you to believe castrophism can happen which academically is pushed down or laughed at. But scientific process should make people consider all possibilities. It’s like quantum entanglement and other physics literally make some scientists say ya we could be living in a simulation. It’s like if some academics can admit that other fields of displine should be more open to to other possibilities
After my experiences, and watching several of these great videos, I can't stand organized religion. To me, you are either all in, or not. Not lukewarm. When I am done with something, I am done. It took a while to get to where I am and now I understand. Enough is enough already. Thanks for the video.
As soon as he said “Hamilton Missouri” I said “that’s where Jenny Doan lives!” I learned to quilt by watching her RUclips videos years ago. Small Mormon/quilting world. 🤣
I graduated from BYU MPA program as well!!!! I'm so so so happy to hear that I was not the only MPA student that was going through the same thing at BYU. Thank you for sharing the story!
Thanks for sharing your story John. I am usually so strict about truth and not letting people get away with being neutral or staying in and not being authentic. However, I think you are being authentic, even in staying in. I’m so sorry that your immediate family is so blinded by their biases and indoctrination that they can’t see or hear you and that must be an awful place to be. I’m sorry that you can’t fully express your authentic self without losing your kids to a system of divisiveness and tribalism. I see that you are doing the best you can with what you have and trying to be a healthy moral sane and loving person. I hope maybe your family can see through their god bifocals and see you are still you.
When I heard John say that the NOM message board no longer exists, I realized that the defunct Mormon Stories had crossed over into a parallel dimension. Good to have Mormon Stories back, but someone needs to catch Dehlin up on this dimension's events.
Sadly, leaders silencing victims is not unique to the one abuse situation mentioned here. This is ecclesiastical abuse; and a spotlight needs to be shined on it, as it is extremely damaging.
I was born and grew up in Utah with an active LDS family. After a rebellious attitude during my teens, I had many spiritual experiences which confirmed for me the truth of the LDS church. However, I have been a Democrat all my life, with moderate to liberal political views. I knew I would not want to live in Utah, and so I have spent the last 31 years in Colorado, teaching humanities and importantly, accepted in my ward, allowed to quote Rumi and Stephen Colbert in talks and teach gospel doctrine in Sunday School; I do think a big tent Mormonism is not only possible but is being practiced in many places.
"I do think a big tent Mormonism is not only possible but is being practiced in many places." It isn't so much a big tent, as it is many tents. You moved to Colorado to find a tent more to your liking.
I hear you, Jon. I am a 40 year practitioner of Buddhism and in the early years my father called it Mormon of the East.Indeed there is much overlap and I am happy to talk with post Mormons. (Contact by reply to this comment). Other credentials: I am PhD and have two relatives who are ordained Christian ministers. It matters What we think, what we worship. I have watched many episodes of Mormon stories and enjoy the critical thinking and bravery that I see.
Is anyone familiar with the Packer talk of 2007(?) referenced? They mentioned it like we should be aware, that the church changed the talk. I've heard of the church changing conference messages for print before. Would like to know more about the item referenced here. Thanks
This story resonates with me and my story. I want to go back on my terms but I know all the orthodoxy and conservative cultures will leave me frustrated.
Being a Christian and Christ-Like are NOT the same. I know a lot of atheists who are more Christ-like than a lot of Christians. I’m halfway thru so not sure his beliefs but this is one of those examples of someone in a Christian religion trying to be Christ-like instead of just following orders. I wish Mormonism would make room for this
Mormonism has so much they need to change - Starting with the horrible way they try to suppress NORMAL sexuality through scaring people into thinking that have to PAY for their salvation….. There is no changing these OLD WHITE Conservatives EVER. Please, you can love Christ without the Mormon Organization insisting you OBEY THEM.
There is a range of beliefs you’re allowed to have. You can be like the Patrick Mason types, Kingston Family-types or the Warren Jeffs-types. You could probably be even more fundamentalist than Jeffs & be totally left alone by the church.
It’s interesting …the types….I love hearing stories that resonate with my parents way of thinking. These “ranges” trickle down to forms of discipline, boundaries, which fundamentals rule, etc. . it helps me understand my parents better and improve our dialogues. Some stories are Wild!
Judism wasn't sunny 🌞 enough for my nature. There wasnt a drop of water to be found it was dry. The first time I went to Kol-Ami S.L.C my holy spirit was prompting me to walk out fast! The creator wanted me far away from Judism & there culture. I'am a visual gal & I loved going to the 🐬Greek Orthodox & 🌹Catholic Church. I love Christmas 🌲 & Easter too. ❤️Beautiful memorie's are precious. 🐬 S.M.
This comment resonates deeply with me. I love the wording. The greenhouse is such a lovely place, and filled with some of the most beautiful flowers. I have truly enjoyed my time there, but it's not the place where I can continue to grow.🌻
🍋 Other Sheep, Yes, I agree the 🍇Hellenic culture is awsome & ⛵Greece is beautiful. It's so warm & full of life. It's all about the family tree🌲, the ❤️ heart, hospitality, love of nature 🐢 & the beauty of the ocean🐬. Thank's a million for connecting with me your delightfully creative & a kind soul. 🌷 🐬 Susan Marcile
I don't think calling anyone a Bigot is ever constructive. The word has a harsh condescending tone to it. It's only use is to inflame, regardless its technical definition
So glad my extended family is catholic. My parents converted from catholicism in 80', both left mormonism in 19'. Too bad I wasn't raised catholic. In general they are a bit more chill.
I had to chuckle when you called yourself a zen Universalist Mormon, because I think of myself as a Zoro- Mormon, because of my long fascination with Zoroastrianism and similarities I see between the LDS faith and the Zoroastrian faith of long ago. Both religions have a prophet, believe in a pre-existence where there was a struggle between good and evil, and spirits of mankind were involved either on the side of truth or on the side of the lie. They even believe that some of these spirits, called fravashi, were instrumental in helping to create the earth. So all mortals are taking place in an eternal struggle between good and evil, believing that the good God, Ahura Mazda will defeat his brother Ahriman, who is the protagonist of evil and the lie. Please don't feel alone. Many of us resonate with your issues, and I think your choices are loving, kind and good. Life is not meant to be easy, and that's how we learn and grow.
People that come to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from other denominations tend to bring rather a lot of that flavoring with them. Since early church was heavily influenced by Methodists I sense some of that still there.
2:13:06 I was raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and we would use the term “disfellowshipped” also. I thought that term was unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Is it commonly used among Mormons as well?
I believe my sister and her husband (both retired) moved to Missouri, likely to wait for Jesus to return. It's hard to find out the real reasons because my sister is reluctant to talk about her religion with me because I’m an atheist. Her stated excuse is she doesn't want “family strife.” She has not disowned me like some have, to her credit. I tend to be judgmental of ex-Mormons who don't become atheists because I believe atheism is the only rational view when it comes to a god’s existence, but I remember I went from Mormon to ex-Mormon to Christian, to agnostic-theist, to agnostic-atheist, to full-blown unabashed atheist, and will likely die an atheist. My Mom and Dad would have probably moved to Missouri, but he was more poor than dirt, so much so that as a kid (age 12) I worked full time for $50 per month on the farm. My dad kept $25, and I paid my own expenses (except room and board) and comic books (I couldn't afford anything else). My dad made $300 per month, and I got half his $50 raise. My dad was a racist and into the “one drop of blood” explanation why blacks were bad. It gave me cognitive dissonance because my dad was an otherwise good guy. My sisters get mad at me for not overlooking his racism (the main excuse, “he was a product of his time”). I didn't know it at the time, but I believe he was cheating on his taxes. He later became a tax protester because the “income tax violates god’s law, and god’s law trumps man’s law.” I struggled for years because I couldn't get financial aid for college because the application required me to snitch on my dad. I couldn't tell the government my dad’s income because he didn't pay income tax. (He is dead, so the statute of limitations has expired 🙂.)
I pretty much joined the LDS as a non literalist, and finally stopped for good once the church came out so aggressively against gays and the proposition 8, AND then lied about it. And that Sunday when a letter was read to us from the authorities telling us to write to our Senators to support a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman. I just about threw up.
Being a non-literal believer is really the only way to actually be a member at this point. And that's a good thing, because being dogmatic and fundamentalist was the main bad thing about the church to begin with. It was what caused all the gaslighting and control and everything
If he knows that the Mormon church is coercive and would try to remove him from his children's life then why on earth would he allow his children to keep being a part of that church? I don't have children yet but I have absolutely no fear that my church (progressive United Methodist) would ever try to exert control over my kids without my consent or remove me from their lives in any way. I don't think that he is a bad person or a bad father but I feel very conflicted about that part of things. I often think of membership in a church in the analogy of a relationship. If that relationship is coercive, if you feel like you need to walk on eggshells or hide your true thoughts in order to stay in, then it's an abusive relationship. If you know it's an abusive relationship then how could you advocate for your children also being in that relationship? I don't know it's just an uncomfortable thing. I know he has the issue of his wife still being a believer so that makes it more complicated.
I’m sure he’s not happy about the matter, but it’s the best possible choice he currently has, if he wants to stay in his kids’ lives. The Mormon Church isn’t like your own church. It’s not called a cult for no reason.
Very interesting episode, thank you! Sounds like he's still on a journey. It would be great hear from him in a few months/years, please ask him to do another episode in the future. *Jonathan* please check out Street Epistomology, for example Anthony Magnabosco's channel. Peace ✌🏻
Maybe my question was answered at later point (I couldn't get through the episode for some reason), but as a never-Mormon, I am a little confused as to why Jon was surprised that the LDS church no longer wanted him in any positions where he would be potentially educating or ministering others. Why would any religion want to have a person on the front lines who does not believe in what the religion/church is teaching.
The medium-ground believers are also a problem as I see it. The idea that "they" can believe what they want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe ignores the problem that religious ideologies greatly influence how people respond in a social and political context. These ideas directly affect real human beings and are all too typical in a negative and hurtful way. There are moral and ethical incompatibilities that cannot be reconciled at times. The sex scandal, as pervasive as it was, was an institutional cover-up!I disagree. JS did not teach a universalist philosophy nor was he inclusive. The Book of Mormon, which he (and others) wrote, was clearly about exclusivity, racist, and went as far as reminding some that they would be nothing more than servants in the realms of the various heavens. Just the fact that there are various levels shows this exclusivity, but with a twist.
The last time I went to church (besides when I visit family) was in January 1981 after Ronald Reagan took office. My Sunday School teacher, an FBI agent, was over the moon and it was all they could talk about. It was the moment I decided not to go back. I stopped believing after Marc Hofmann and the Mormon Murders. I realized that the church leadership didn't believe it either. We should be allowed to be Liberals and believe too. My brother complained about this in Priesthood meetings. He has since quit the church too
Liked your posting. For a church to be tax exempt, one of the requirements/rules is no political/vote for this person "suggestions" are to be announced from pulpit. Hmmmm.
Much of what has been said has resonated with my experiences. However, I think it helps to live in a country where our most right wing politicians would be to the left of Bernie Sanders because this culture and environment does influence our leaders. Last time I was in the situation to bear my testimony, (after a very long awkward silence in testimony meeting) I felt to stand up and literally stated - I do not know this Church is true, I do not even know there is really a God, and I certainly wonder sometimes what our leaders are thinking; but deep down I believe there is a purpose in life and some truth to what we do. And no one even batted an eye lash. It sounds like I could not get away with this degree of honesty in the US?
Wow. When he said his main reason for staying is to protect his kids from the mormon establishment.. The building is on fire - why not get the whole family out?
If his wife and kids don't want to get out because they like the church, then he can become the outcast if he tries to strong arm them. Fathers don't have full dominion over their families, do they? What they say... keep-your-friends-close-and-your-enemies-closer
The church ignores fringe ‘ individuals. They want ALL In,, Or one feels like chopped liver. As a divorcee’ Old// last kid at almost 42: They would not count my full Tithing as a daycare teacher: because my non / Mormon family were helping me with financial burdens. UG
Jon is a very nice man, but his demeanor is very tight and nervous. Is this because he cannot resolve his beliefs with his practice? The need he has for the cultural aspects of Mormonism is based on being raised in strong cult-like manner. When he can look to other religions for being centered on Christ, combined with his life of continual learning in sociology and other subjects, it seems quite odd that his professional mind could not make the leap into another faith..
I think he is just sacrificing for his family. People learn to do that in a lot of different ways. I feel like he is pretty dang sure of himself, and just making space for his family to choose their own paths, and to be with them during church time-- and maybe to watch out for them to make sure they are not manipulated and abused there. I did that for a long time.
Amy Green, I agree with you. He is probably sacrificing for his family. Trying to maintain relationships and time together. However, when one of the children steps into their own faith unraveling path, will he be there to support them? Will he answer their simple questioning in an honest way? Will he allow them to attend non-Mormon Universities for education? He has a rough road ahead with so many diverse little minds who might look to him for guidance.
My uncle owned the Hawn's Mill property and farmed the land all around it years ago. Didn't know the story behind it until I was an adult. Pretty sure my grandmother metal detected the site but dunno what if anything she found.
2:12:55 Sex abuse scandal in the ward in Lehi. if this is true, why go after the church? why not expose the people so they are removed? makes no sense to me.
Why stay in a church that you don't believe in? He obviously does not support the ideology of the LDS Church or it's leaders. So why in the world would you have anything to do with it?
"Non-literal Mormon" to me sound like: "Sexualy active virgin." I don't think you can be one and the other. Oh sure......everyone is allowed to have their own thoughts and views in the church - just keep them to yourself and never go off script. And EVERYTHING said at church has to be "faith prompting." The church is no a la carte. It's table hote. You take what is giving and don't think about anything else.
These topics are so interesting in general but these podcasts are so tedious and challenging to get through.....I wish they could move along just a bit faster without so many irrelevant details.
Seems either naive or deliberate of Westover to say that the church isn't likely to take serious action against him or his family after this podcast. It's only a matter of time. Naive would be their timing; deliberate being his timing. I am leaning towards deliberate. This seems like a shot across the bow and a hope that the catalyst will bring the rest of his family along with him. Will be interesting to follow his evolving story move through the next major chapters post interview.
We are not Mormons nor have we ever claimed to be. that name came from mobs in Josephs smiths time and They tried to end the church by lies and Murder. this is just a different way to try to do it. but its the same outcome. I have never seen proof of anything that was said its just words. I can make up stuff too. If any of you lack wisdom as of God. love always. God is our Judge.
i worked as an engineer with many mormon engineers. yes, in many cases, my mormon colleagues displayed a noticeable lack of critical thinking skills often replaced with obedience to the mormon boss. engineering is critical thinking.
I have a friend who works for the DOD and his boss apparently likes to hire mormons because they tow the line, don't ask questions and follow the official narrative.
Thanks everyone for watching/listening and for your comments!
Thank YOU sir, for your open honesty. I myself am treading the waters of no longer believing in the literal truthfulness of the BOM/doctrine, yet trying to stay involved enough to be a loving support for the people I love most. My husband and I have adopted two of our grandchildren, and they ADORE primary! This struggle is very real. Thanks for sharing your insights.😊
It's not every day that your old mission companion does an interview on Mormon Stories! OK, so we were in a threesome, and only briefly, but I was a greenie, so it was memorable to me haha. Matter of fact, I think you introduced me to 돈가스 - like that was my official first home cooked meal in our mission house - and I still love that stuff!
Looking forward to listening to this! I've read some of the comments and it sounds like it was a very good interview and I'm interested to see if there are any similarities with my own spiritual journey. Thanks for sharing your story, Jon!
Thank you Jonathan…..whoaaaa, uri hanguk mal kkaji he!!! That was a surprise. Thanks for everything. This is great stuff for me to share with my family. Jal kyeshiso!
Ho Deok
Hi Jon,
Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts and experiences! Your honesty and observations are most refreshing! Its always enlightening to hear of someone's journey on the road less traveled! I prayed for the most difficult mission I could endure... and received it! I left the Mormon religion a little over a year after serving a mission! I'm on my own journey, my own road less traveled, and I'm grateful for every second of it, as it made me who I am, and I very much appreciate that! Anything of great value is never easy, but wow, what a ride! LOL
Thank you, Jon. I was intrigued by your story and touched by your humble and loving responses to cruel and unjust treatment. May only good come out of the LDS religion for your family!
This guy needs to be called as prophet and the church would have a chance... what a solid human being! Love it, great podcast! .... Thank you Mormon Stories
Fantastic conversation! Thanks for this one.
Jon is very articulate, his thoughts and ideas are very clearly expressed and his life experiences have caused him to think a great deal about the religion of his birth! What he has learned and chosen to share is of great inside to anyone struggling with the same concepts in religion! One need not be a member of the same religion to learn from his experiences! His thoughts are his own, not a repeat of someone else's comments, and as such, they are a refreshing observation of someone currently within the struggle! This is one of the better programs I have watched; Jon is candid, honest, sincere and he shares his findings in a logical format that is easy to follow! What more can one ask of a guest speaker? I highly recommend weighing his experiences vs dogmas! The imperfect observer will assess them as he/she chooses.
Hi,
It amazing to hear someone share the truth about his mission, as opposed to sugar coating it and omitting negative experiences! Sounds similar to my mission experience!
I always questioned and eyerolled the RM talks where these young men came home, grandstanding and acting like they changed the world. I didn't believe their missions were really that awesome. I'm awful.
@@amygreen758 ...the RMs--like all kids grateful to their folks--went and served (for mom, dad and the food they ate at home)
What's an LDS boy s'posed to do? Disgrace their family by not going on the mission forced upon them (and weekly re-enforced since they were eight?).... the boy serves. He satisfies The Ward. He stays on some hell-hole mission. Hates it but hangs in there...Ma Pa and the Ward deserves his triumphant homecoming report.
...dumbass kid does a good-looking talk in Church. So what if it was a lie? Ma, Paw & the good Ward are happy and the poor manipulited RM kid may now enjoy his SHELL SHOCK
been there. done that. I'm 68 and lived thru the Argentina East Mission gig ('73,'74) and I have NO REGRETS, NOT ONE about embellishing my homecoming talk--to protect mom & dad & The Ward from the shame of recieving a "failed'
Elder
Compelling, honest, respectful. There was absolutely no sense of scorn or mocking in his answers to your questions concerning "a better Jesus" experience. I found that so refreshing. Unfortunately I can not say this about the interviewers. That is sad. Every person who comes to a place of personal decision in their faith journey has already experienced such a sometimes painful even agonizing array of emotions and responsibilities for the choice they commit to live by. If that includes a "better Jesus" it should be just as respected as a "non -literal" or for that manner a literal believer in whatever their choice. Gay, straight, orthodox, ect. This was a excellent guest to listen to. Articulate and humble. Thank you for having him.
As a non-Mormon, if a church pushed me to write letters of condemnation regarding a child of mine who doesn’t agree, or questions the authority’s demands of how to think, that would be the end of my association with that church! I’ve seen my Mothers continued love of my Brother save him. It does not ring as true to me for God to call for us to shun people due to their sharing different views.
That's how members in this family chose to handle their family affair. With no involvement of the church pushing them other than the backdrop of their religious believe. Pretty sure families round the world in many religious have ostracized others who defect. Not that I agree
The organization that teaches languages seriously is the Us State Dept. They have a system of language instruction that determines what a normal length of time to be in formal classes should be. They classify Korean, Japanese, Chinese, and Arabic as “hard” languages, so Foreign Service Officers who need to learn one of those languages is posted to language school for two years. That means five full days of language school each week for two years, the first year in Washington and the second year “in country.” That is how long it takes for most learners to get to just moderate fluency. Three months of language study is NOTHING when compared to what our diplomats, top military, and those in clandestine services go through. Their jobs depend on success in language study, and of course, success in the work you do when assigned abroad.
I had 9 weeks in the MTC and then was totally lost for the first year of my mission in Seoul, Korea. But I figured it out and was very good by the time I went home. Our mission president and his wife couldnt speak Korean hardly at all. It was embarrassing
Mormonism trains you to do a very specific thing in its language study programs. You definitely won't be negotiating any international agreements or even be able to function in a business setting.
@@davidfoust9767 No it teaches you the whole thing
@@randomchannel609 a few months in the MTC isn't useless but close. It's...teach them some very basic language and then throw them overboard. Sink or swim is a very effective method for those that don't sink. Motivation is always the key.
RE Korean Christians: Why do Mormons always seem surprised that other churches have missionary programs? My faith tradition is United Methodist. The Methodist Church began sending missionaries to Korea as early as 1884.
We become more fluent in our language of expression in the company of such as Jon
When he talked about avoiding coming home when his leg was injured, it reminded me of a young man in my home ward. He came home early on crutches and rumors were spreading that he came home for worthiness issues and the leg injury was a cover up. It's sad how much pressure we put on missionaries when they're really still kids trying to figure it out. I wish we could normalize coming home early if needed and be kinder to missionaries.
nothing wrong with anyone coming home early and they should not be judged. that i agree with
My brother left knowing my mom would pass away while he was gone. He planned to stay the full 2 years, but couldn't make it and came home 6 months early. The same thing happened to him. Years later he actually left which I never imagined!
I have been trying to figure out if this is a good way for me. Thank you for this discussion.
I related to so much in this interview. Growing up outside the Morridor, difficult mission experiences, and trying for over a decade to walk the middle way. I too used my baby as a reason to leave meetings many times. 🤣 I couldn’t do it anymore and left in 2012 but sometimes wish I could have made it work. It’s still sad to me that the church pushes people away simply for thinking differently or asking questions. Best wishes to you going forward Brother Westover!
I’ve noticed that’s changed in some areas. At USU institute teachers would talk to me for an hour after class sometimes weekly. Hell we had one conversation just on jf Jesus would return with a beard or white hair. They had in-depth classes about polygamy and nothing was off limits. At snow college many professors would be like we don’t know all things and end the discussion.
One time at a ysa event they had us write questions. I wrote why do we believe in a heavenly mother when the only scripture or church approved doctrine comes from a song or hymn that says there’s a heavenly mother. The stake president read my question and was like we’re out of time as mine was the last question and said let’s speak after church tomorrow. I said I’ll be going back to college so I can’t literally be there. But at usu we had a long discussion about it after class.
Or seer stones. One Sunday at a singles branch the teacher was like Joseph just used the urim and thummin to translate. I said no Joseph also had and used seer stones.
After class a 65 year old guy was like was that true. He’s like I had a friend that left the church cause anti Mormons showed him Joseph had seer stones. I’m like in institute they teach Joseph used seer stones too.
Purely from an intellectual standpoint I find it good to have discussions and something doesn’t have to be pro or anti Mormon. It’s like let’s just talk history and leave belief at the door and talk about what’s documented.
I remember reading about byu professors and the CES saying Joseph smith was wrong as Joseph beleueved in one hill cumorah but the CES believed Joseph was wrong and there’s two hill cumorahs and there wasn’t a repository in New York. It’s frustrating to see church workers totally say oh this is right or that’s wrong. It’s like they know more then Joseph a prophet. It’s like these people write the church manuals for Sunday school. No wonder why there’s tons of confusion or hypocrisy. They’re taking positions that’s total speculation from a century later. It’s like why would they do that?
They assume the Book of Mormon happened in Central America. It’s like think about. If the Book of Mormon is real and there was massive changes to the land BYU professors could be totally wrong. If there was massive changes to the land there’s a possibility there was lakes in Nevada and other massive lakes etc that aren’t here today. But that requires you to believe castrophism can happen which academically is pushed down or laughed at. But scientific process should make people consider all possibilities.
It’s like quantum entanglement and other physics literally make some scientists say ya we could be living in a simulation. It’s like if some academics can admit that other fields of displine should be more open to to other possibilities
After my experiences, and watching several of these great videos, I can't stand organized religion. To me, you are either all in, or not. Not lukewarm. When I am done with something, I am done. It took a while to get to where I am and now I understand. Enough is enough already. Thanks for the video.
"To me, you are either all in, or not. Not lukewarm."
Yes. Scripture says so too. Lukewarm is spewed out.
He said he is staying active in to stay in position to protect his children if needs be
Just remember others have spiritual experiences or feel close to God, whether or not they belong to Mormonism or any other religous organization.
I read somewhere recently that it was Joseph Smith himself who proclaimed that the word Mormon meant More Good
The longest podcast I have ever listened to in my life.... Worth every minute of my time. TY Jon & John for a captivating interview.
As soon as he said “Hamilton Missouri” I said “that’s where Jenny Doan lives!” I learned to quilt by watching her RUclips videos years ago. Small Mormon/quilting world. 🤣
I graduated from BYU MPA program as well!!!! I'm so so so happy to hear that I was not the only MPA student that was going through the same thing at BYU. Thank you for sharing the story!
Thanks for sharing your story John. I am usually so strict about truth and not letting people get away with being neutral or staying in and not being authentic. However, I think you are being authentic, even in staying in. I’m so sorry that your immediate family is so blinded by their biases and indoctrination that they can’t see or hear you and that must be an awful place to be. I’m sorry that you can’t fully express your authentic self without losing your kids to a system of divisiveness and tribalism. I see that you are doing the best you can with what you have and trying to be a healthy moral sane and loving person.
I hope maybe your family can see through their god bifocals and see you are still you.
When I heard John say that the NOM message board no longer exists, I realized that the defunct Mormon Stories had crossed over into a parallel dimension. Good to have Mormon Stories back, but someone needs to catch Dehlin up on this dimension's events.
Jon is awesome! He was my teacher at UVU.
Sadly, leaders silencing victims is not unique to the one abuse situation mentioned here. This is ecclesiastical abuse; and a spotlight needs to be shined on it, as it is extremely damaging.
I was born and grew up in Utah with an active LDS family. After a rebellious attitude during my teens, I had many spiritual experiences which confirmed for me the truth of the LDS church. However, I have been a Democrat all my life, with moderate to liberal political views. I knew I would not want to live in Utah, and so I have spent the last 31 years in Colorado, teaching humanities and importantly, accepted in my ward, allowed to quote Rumi and Stephen Colbert in talks and teach gospel doctrine in Sunday School; I do think a big tent Mormonism is not only possible but is being practiced in many places.
"I do think a big tent Mormonism is not only possible but is being practiced in many places."
It isn't so much a big tent, as it is many tents. You moved to Colorado to find a tent more to your liking.
An apologist who is a Non Literal believer. This in truth is what the leaders of the Mormon church are.
This is the first time I've used the timestamp feature. (Thanks Carah)
Great interview, as are all you do.
I was radically harmed at a very young age because of the church funneled through my mother. This is a toxic cult.
Remarkable resilience and integrity--inspirational.
Great interview. I think in a very similar way even though I don't attend anymore.
I hear you, Jon. I am a 40 year practitioner of Buddhism and in the early years my father called it Mormon of the East.Indeed there is much overlap and I am happy to talk with post Mormons. (Contact by reply to this comment). Other credentials: I am PhD and have two relatives who are ordained Christian ministers. It matters What we think, what we worship. I have watched many episodes of Mormon stories and enjoy the critical thinking and bravery that I see.
Welcome!!!
Is anyone familiar with the Packer talk of 2007(?) referenced? They mentioned it like we should be aware, that the church changed the talk. I've heard of the church changing conference messages for print before. Would like to know more about the item referenced here. Thanks
Ya, sure a lot of talk in this episode about a topic without talking about it
This story resonates with me and my story. I want to go back on my terms but I know all the orthodoxy and conservative cultures will leave me frustrated.
Being a Christian and Christ-Like are NOT the same. I know a lot of atheists who are more Christ-like than a lot of Christians. I’m halfway thru so not sure his beliefs but this is one of those examples of someone in a Christian religion trying to be Christ-like instead of just following orders. I wish Mormonism would make room for this
Mormonism has so much they need to change - Starting with the horrible way they try to suppress NORMAL sexuality through scaring people into thinking that have to PAY for their salvation….. There is no changing these OLD WHITE Conservatives EVER. Please, you can love Christ without the Mormon Organization insisting you OBEY THEM.
"Visitors are Welcome" until you're a member, then if you don't tow the line, you are not
I was suspicious at first but now I absolutely love this guy. Awesome vibes.
There is a range of beliefs you’re allowed to have. You can be like the Patrick Mason types, Kingston Family-types or the Warren Jeffs-types. You could probably be even more fundamentalist than Jeffs & be totally left alone by the church.
It’s interesting …the types….I love hearing stories that resonate with my parents way of thinking. These “ranges” trickle down to forms of discipline, boundaries, which fundamentals rule, etc. . it helps me understand my parents better and improve our dialogues. Some stories are Wild!
On my mission I tried to follow the Spirit and oddly the Spirit always led me to do things contrary to the mission rules.
I heard the first law of wisdom is to know when, why and how to break every rule.
I love the Saints. I just can’t grow in that greenhouse.
Judism wasn't sunny 🌞 enough for my nature. There wasnt a drop of water to be found it was dry. The first time I went to Kol-Ami S.L.C my holy spirit was prompting me to walk out fast! The creator wanted me far away from Judism & there culture. I'am a visual gal & I loved going to the 🐬Greek Orthodox & 🌹Catholic Church. I love Christmas 🌲 & Easter too. ❤️Beautiful memorie's are precious. 🐬 S.M.
@@elliotbressloer2612 the Greek Orthodox Community in SLC are some of the most wonderful people I’ve ever met 💚💚💚
This comment resonates deeply with me. I love the wording. The greenhouse is such a lovely place, and filled with some of the most beautiful flowers. I have truly enjoyed my time there, but it's not the place where I can continue to grow.🌻
🍋 Other Sheep, Yes, I agree the 🍇Hellenic culture is awsome & ⛵Greece is beautiful. It's so warm & full of life. It's all about the family tree🌲, the ❤️ heart, hospitality, love of nature 🐢 & the beauty of the ocean🐬. Thank's a million for connecting with me your delightfully creative & a kind soul. 🌷 🐬 Susan Marcile
🍇 Italian Familie's had deep root's & strong familie's. They were full of life & lived to 100! 🍋
I don't think calling anyone a Bigot is ever constructive. The word has a harsh condescending tone to it. It's only use is to inflame, regardless its technical definition
So glad my extended family is catholic. My parents converted from catholicism in 80', both left mormonism in 19'. Too bad I wasn't raised catholic. In general they are a bit more chill.
Catholicism is corrupt. Nothing to wish for
What was it that Boyd K Packer said in the 2007 General Conference?
I had to chuckle when you called yourself a zen Universalist Mormon, because I think of myself as a Zoro- Mormon, because of my long fascination with Zoroastrianism and similarities I see between the LDS faith and the Zoroastrian faith of long ago. Both religions have a prophet, believe in a pre-existence where there was a struggle between good and evil, and spirits of mankind were involved either on the side of truth or on the side of the lie. They even believe that some of these spirits, called fravashi, were instrumental in helping to create the earth. So all mortals are taking place in an eternal struggle between good and evil, believing that the good God, Ahura Mazda will defeat his brother Ahriman, who is the protagonist of evil and the lie.
Please don't feel alone. Many of us resonate with your issues, and I think your choices are loving, kind and good. Life is not meant to be easy, and that's how we learn and grow.
People that come to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from other denominations tend to bring rather a lot of that flavoring with them. Since early church was heavily influenced by Methodists I sense some of that still there.
2:13:06 I was raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and we would use the term “disfellowshipped” also. I thought that term was unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Is it commonly used among Mormons as well?
nah
Yes
Yes, 100%. "Disfellowshipped" is an official status of a member not presently in good standing
I believe my sister and her husband (both retired) moved to Missouri, likely to wait for Jesus to return. It's hard to find out the real reasons because my sister is reluctant to talk about her religion with me because I’m an atheist. Her stated excuse is she doesn't want “family strife.” She has not disowned me like some have, to her credit.
I tend to be judgmental of ex-Mormons who don't become atheists because I believe atheism is the only rational view when it comes to a god’s existence, but I remember I went from Mormon to ex-Mormon to Christian, to agnostic-theist, to agnostic-atheist, to full-blown unabashed atheist, and will likely die an atheist.
My Mom and Dad would have probably moved to Missouri, but he was more poor than dirt, so much so that as a kid (age 12) I worked full time for $50 per month on the farm. My dad kept $25, and I paid my own expenses (except room and board) and comic books (I couldn't afford anything else). My dad made $300 per month, and I got half his $50 raise.
My dad was a racist and into the “one drop of blood” explanation why blacks were bad. It gave me cognitive dissonance because my dad was an otherwise good guy. My sisters get mad at me for not overlooking his racism (the main excuse, “he was a product of his time”). I didn't know it at the time, but I believe he was cheating on his taxes. He later became a tax protester because the “income tax violates god’s law, and god’s law trumps man’s law.”
I struggled for years because I couldn't get financial aid for college because the application required me to snitch on my dad. I couldn't tell the government my dad’s income because he didn't pay income tax. (He is dead, so the statute of limitations has expired 🙂.)
I pretty much joined the LDS as a non literalist, and finally stopped for good once the church came out so aggressively against gays and the proposition 8, AND then lied about it. And that Sunday when a letter was read to us from the authorities telling us to write to our Senators to support a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman. I just about threw up.
Being a non-literal believer is really the only way to actually be a member at this point. And that's a good thing, because being dogmatic and fundamentalist was the main bad thing about the church to begin with. It was what caused all the gaslighting and control and everything
If he knows that the Mormon church is coercive and would try to remove him from his children's life then why on earth would he allow his children to keep being a part of that church? I don't have children yet but I have absolutely no fear that my church (progressive United Methodist) would ever try to exert control over my kids without my consent or remove me from their lives in any way. I don't think that he is a bad person or a bad father but I feel very conflicted about that part of things.
I often think of membership in a church in the analogy of a relationship. If that relationship is coercive, if you feel like you need to walk on eggshells or hide your true thoughts in order to stay in, then it's an abusive relationship. If you know it's an abusive relationship then how could you advocate for your children also being in that relationship? I don't know it's just an uncomfortable thing. I know he has the issue of his wife still being a believer so that makes it more complicated.
I’m sure he’s not happy about the matter, but it’s the best possible choice he currently has, if he wants to stay in his kids’ lives. The Mormon Church isn’t like your own church. It’s not called a cult for no reason.
@@mads597 of course you're right. I can tell he's doing the best he can. It's an unfortunate situation.
Very interesting episode, thank you! Sounds like he's still on a journey. It would be great hear from him in a few months/years, please ask him to do another episode in the future.
*Jonathan* please check out Street Epistomology, for example Anthony Magnabosco's channel. Peace ✌🏻
Great question! Thank you
Good interview but I didnt hear one word about the Book of Mormon, which is a key stone of our religion.
Maybe my question was answered at later point (I couldn't get through the episode for some reason), but as a never-Mormon, I am a little confused as to why Jon was surprised that the LDS church no longer wanted him in any positions where he would be potentially educating or ministering others. Why would any religion want to have a person on the front lines who does not believe in what the religion/church is teaching.
I think he could be the Pope Francis of the Mormon Church. Love for people more important than punishment.
Good point. You can tell he clearly understands human behavior. Reinforcement is far more productive than punishment.
The medium-ground believers are also a problem as I see it. The idea that "they" can believe what they want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe ignores the problem that religious ideologies greatly influence how people respond in a social and political context. These ideas directly affect real human beings and are all too typical in a negative and hurtful way. There are moral and ethical incompatibilities that cannot be reconciled at times. The sex scandal, as pervasive as it was, was an institutional cover-up!I disagree. JS did not teach a universalist philosophy nor was he inclusive. The Book of Mormon, which he (and others) wrote, was clearly about exclusivity, racist, and went as far as reminding some that they would be nothing more than servants in the realms of the various heavens. Just the fact that there are various levels shows this exclusivity, but with a twist.
My brother in law served the same years in your mission. And I live in Tooele :) lol
I can't wait until Part 2 (OB analysis of the LDS Church). Hope it comes soon ☺️
The last time I went to church (besides when I visit family) was in January 1981 after Ronald Reagan took office. My Sunday School teacher, an FBI agent, was over the moon and it was all they could talk about. It was the moment I decided not to go back. I stopped believing after Marc Hofmann and the Mormon Murders. I realized that the church leadership didn't believe it either. We should be allowed to be Liberals and believe too. My brother complained about this in Priesthood meetings. He has since quit the church too
Liked your posting. For a church to be tax exempt, one of the requirements/rules is no political/vote for this person "suggestions" are to be announced from pulpit. Hmmmm.
If all members were like this guest I would be convinced that this is Christ's true Church no matter all other evidence to the contrary
I would've stayed in the Church if there was more like him, or you, John. That said, I know too much now about the history and hypocrisy now.
Born and raised in Missouri. Let me tell you if God is telling you to move here, it ain’t worth it.
I lived in Mansfield for my senior year in high school. I moved back to California as soon as I graduated and saved some money.
Such a great human ! Thank you 🙏🏼
John, is your big FAITH CRISIS billboard still up? I tried looking for it on my way to salt lake today to snap a picture. Maybe I kissed it.🤔
2:45:50 blood system
Crazy how they moved to MO, and that the revelation was only for them. Classic elitist mormonism.
Much of what has been said has resonated with my experiences. However, I think it helps to live in a country where our most right wing politicians would be to the left of Bernie Sanders because this culture and environment does influence our leaders. Last time I was in the situation to bear my testimony, (after a very long awkward silence in testimony meeting) I felt to stand up and literally stated - I do not know this Church is true, I do not even know there is really a God, and I certainly wonder sometimes what our leaders are thinking; but deep down I believe there is a purpose in life and some truth to what we do. And no one even batted an eye lash. It sounds like I could not get away with this degree of honesty in the US?
Wow. When he said his main reason for staying is to protect his kids from the mormon establishment.. The building is on fire - why not get the whole family out?
If his wife and kids don't want to get out because they like the church, then he can become the outcast if he tries to strong arm them. Fathers don't have full dominion over their families, do they?
What they say... keep-your-friends-close-and-your-enemies-closer
The church ignores fringe ‘ individuals.
They want
ALL In,,
Or one feels like chopped liver.
As a divorcee’
Old// last kid at almost 42:
They would not count my full Tithing as a daycare teacher: because my non / Mormon family were helping me with financial burdens.
UG
Red tent Mormons still moving to Missouri
Jon is a very nice man, but his demeanor is very tight and nervous. Is this because he cannot resolve his beliefs with his practice? The need he has for the cultural aspects of Mormonism is based on being raised in strong cult-like manner. When he can look to other religions for being centered on Christ, combined with his life of continual learning in sociology and other subjects, it seems quite odd that his professional mind could not make the leap into another faith..
I think he is just sacrificing for his family. People learn to do that in a lot of different ways. I feel like he is pretty dang sure of himself, and just making space for his family to choose their own paths, and to be with them during church time-- and maybe to watch out for them to make sure they are not manipulated and abused there. I did that for a long time.
Amy Green, I agree with you. He is probably sacrificing for his family. Trying to maintain relationships and time together. However, when one of the children steps into their own faith unraveling path, will he be there to support them? Will he answer their simple questioning in an honest way? Will he allow them to attend non-Mormon Universities for education? He has a rough road ahead with so many diverse little minds who might look to him for guidance.
Where will you go
I approve this message.
My uncle owned the Hawn's Mill property and farmed the land all around it years ago. Didn't know the story behind it until I was an adult. Pretty sure my grandmother metal detected the site but dunno what if anything she found.
4:34:52
2:12:55 Sex abuse scandal in the ward in Lehi. if this is true, why go after the church? why not expose the people so they are removed? makes no sense to me.
Because the LDS church covers it up. It handles these situations in much the same way the catholic church does.
Because the church is involved.
@@aces.9738 show me proof?
@@reereebaggins2887 show me proof?
@@reereebaggins2887 where does it show the church is involved?
You guys are awesome 👌 Happy Holidays
Being rejected by thought police happens everywhere. Not just Utah.
People who “pile on” in attack mode are awful. Ravening wolves. Steer clear. You were smart in getting out.
Non literal believer lol is that option in Lds? I'm not going be baptized in Lds because I'm non literal believer.
Why stay in a church that you don't believe in? He obviously does not support the ideology of the LDS Church or it's leaders. So why in the world would you have anything to do with it?
Many wars have been fought over the true Jesus...the true God. Such a waist .
"Non-literal Mormon" to me sound like: "Sexualy active virgin." I don't think you can be one and the other. Oh sure......everyone is allowed to have their own thoughts and views in the church - just keep them to yourself and never go off script. And EVERYTHING said at church has to be "faith prompting." The church is no a la carte. It's table hote. You take what is giving and don't think about anything else.
Jon states the cult isn't allowed to control his children. Think, again, Jon. Hope he doesn't continue to drown in the Kool-aid !
You should look into Universal Unitarian or Unity Church. You might like them better....
💗
Oh man, the Mormon church is super cruel 😥
OOPS…. Missed… maybe I MISSED it. Haha
Thanks for younexpansion of m intellectual property p wer
I feel sorry for people who loose there faith !! The Bible says many will fall away in the last days. But many are joining !!!
These topics are so interesting in general but these podcasts are so tedious and challenging to get through.....I wish they could move along just a bit faster without so many irrelevant details.
Dude just leave the church. What are you holding onto? Find a social club, maybe a hobby. What do you like about the church?
Seems either naive or deliberate of Westover to say that the church isn't likely to take serious action against him or his family after this podcast. It's only a matter of time. Naive would be their timing; deliberate being his timing. I am leaning towards deliberate. This seems like a shot across the bow and a hope that the catalyst will bring the rest of his family along with him. Will be interesting to follow his evolving story move through the next major chapters post interview.
The god mthe god makers
akers
We are not Mormons nor have we ever claimed to be. that name came from mobs in Josephs smiths time and They tried to end the church by lies and Murder. this is just a different way to try to do it. but its the same outcome. I have never seen proof of anything that was said its just words. I can make up stuff too. If any of you lack wisdom as of God. love always. God is our Judge.
That's an odd statement considering the church had an official advertising campaign not long ago that made the declaration: "I'm a Mormon".
You say “God is our Judge” but you sure seem to be putting judgement on others, humble yourself.
@@OuttaMyMind911 yea but that was the last prophet. New one says it's a no go so it never happened
@@reereebaggins2887 how am I putting judgment? I ask for proof. And I say we do not go by Mormons. So tell me where am I judging?
@@OuttaMyMind911 here can i find the official advertising campaign?