What are Harfoots really? | Lore Review
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- What are Harfoots according to Tolkien?
#Lordoftherings
#Lore
#Tolkien
#middleearth
All content falls under fair use: any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, parody, or use a copyrighted work for educational purposes. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.
Art Credits:
Lidia Postma - No known website
Anna Kulisz - alasseaearello....
Sara M Morello - ladyoftheflower...
-------------------------------------------
Much love and many thanks to the music makers!
-------------------------------------------
Fantasy Background Music - Celtic Relaxation - Music Provided By: Mediacharger: / mediacha. . Music Created By :Essa Song Title: Fantasy loop 1 Download: goo.gl/AKteyi License: creativecommon....
The Forbidden Forest - (Royalty Free Mystical Music)
Music provided by Royalty Free Music: / royaltyfree. . Music used: The Forbidden Forest by Alexander Hoff / alexander-hoff. . Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 creativecommon....
Celtic Theme - Tom Kent - Freelance Musician @tomkentuk | www.tomkentmusic.co.uk | tomkentmusic An original soundtrack piece titled, 'Celtic Theme'.
No Copyright Music: / royaltyfree. . Music used: Traveler by Alexander Nakarada @ SerpentSound Studios / serpentsoundst. . Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 creativecommon....
-------------------------------------------
Much love, stay groovy, and navaer mellyn nin!
Dude, you are by far my favorite Tolkien loremaster. I love listening to your stories and appreciate how you explain the deep, complex history of Middle Earth in ways my brain can easily digest
He’s the best
Yup, he not only makes a list of canonic events in his videos (like other youtubers) but talks about all the hidden meanings and emotional component of each story.
Thanks!
🤗🤗🤍🤍🌲🌲✨✨💞💞
agreed 100%
I wonder if someone was like "I just like the name 'Harfoot' better than 'Fallowhide' so we're going to use that name instead". Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense why they would get that wrong. But ultimately they should have just not used ANY of those names since what they are trying to portray is "proto-hobbits" and Harfoot is a type of ACTUAL hobbit.
Yeah, my mind canon is imagining harfoots came first and then broke off into the three groups, harfoots, stoors and fallohides
they saw "browner of skin" as an opportunity. Had to be Harfoot.
It probably is all about branding of Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallowhide, harfoot sounds the most like hobbit which is something most viewers will be familiar with
@@cultmecca this is probably why they did it.
@@cullenami I think you're right. They could have chosen the Fallohides, as they would more suit the wandering nature of these proto-hobbits, but something about the description of them being 'fairer of skin and also of hair' would go against Sir Lenny being a Fallohide. We can't have that, can we?
Is anyone else slightly disappointed that they named a main character 'Elanor' when in the books the name was first given to Sam Gamgee's daughter, at Frodo's suggestion, after as it is said, Sam was going to call his child 'Frodo', 'but he isn't a he Mr Frodo, he's a she', and came from yellow flowers they saw in Lorien?
This is one of a million sins this show has commited
Yeah it all adds up and keeps on getting more weird every episode..
Let's not forget how the showrunners decided to create an origin story for mithril, one that does not make any sense
Why have they even included this strange mithril story?
@@CarolinaPine Because the writers are just that bad. They were proud of that abysmal lore-contradicring piece of anal discharge
@@CarolinaPine My guess is an excuse to show a Balrog
I took it as a 'myth' even within the universe. they preface the story in the show with 'some people say' which implies that it shouldn't be taken as fact.
@@darthragnarok1066 no but none of that makes any sense. Every elf in the story would know it's utter nonsense because they were all alive when the three Silmarils ended up in their final dwellings. They all should personally remember that and thus the story about a silmaril in a tree makes absolutely no sense in-world or in the meta.
And consider the fact that the entire thing is supposed to not be just a story or a metaphor because it is presented as a literal explanation as to why the mithril ore exists.
So either the story is right, which doesn't make any sense, or the story is false, in which case it doesn't make any sense for Gil-Galad and Elrond to even begin to discuss it.
It's valid criticism no need for the disclaimer.
people flame this show for reasons
Let's be honest here, "Brown" doesn't mean "Black". Millions of people in the world (Asia, Middle-east, Europe, Latin America etc.) are of brown skin, and nobody would call, nor consider them, as black because they are not. A linguistic Prof. like Tolkien knew the difference between brown and black very well. And so do we.
Having said that, black hobbits are not the main problem this show has. Not even close. I think they are inconsistent with the way the writers themselves want to portray the Harfoots in the show (closed and isolationists). But, ultimately, I could give a damn about it, because they all suck, regardless of their skin colour. They have vandalised the Lore so much, that black hobbits, or Elves for that matter, are minor issues in comparison. What they have done with Galadriel, Elves and Numenor is unforgivable, IMO.
Not to mention that Harfoots aren't even brown (like asia, middle-east, etc). They're Brown***ER**** of skin. As in 'in comparison to the pale white Stoors and Fallowhides.'
@@Glorfindel_117 Exactly. You don't even have to leave the British Isles or include immigrant populations from the last 2 centuries to have an example of what Tolkien likely had in mind. Look at some of the Welsh (Tom Jones and Catherine Zeta Jones come to mind) or Irish (Collin Farrell comes to mind) as an example. Hell, though rarer, even some Englishmen can be kinda on the "swarthier" side (look at Russell Brand or Bob Hoskins, for example). None of them are what most would consider "brown", or non-white, but it just stands out a little bit compared to your typical very pale Englishman (and Hobbits, of course, were based on the English in the rural countryside)
Let's be honest here, "brown" means brown and there are millions of people on all of those continents and areas that you mentioned that fit that category And each one of them has been called black or the n word (usually when they say the n word they'll put something else such as people in the Middle East that have sand put before the word). Most people talking are interacting with people from those areas would see that they are in fact very dark skin and would call them black, which is what happens quite often. JRR token knew this as he was a well-traveled man and would have no problem with black hobbits being depicted, we all know you are being racist....
Having said that, your main issue appears to be their skin color and that is the only "inconsistency" You have pointed to. What specifically is your problem with the show?!? What exactly is wrong with galadriel?
@@Darthalas Hahahahahahah
@@Glorfindel_117 where are you getting the "ER"? I missed the direct comparison to others in that sentence.
I love that we're even having these conversations. The fact that Tolkien can be so hotly debated and passionately protected, in late 2022... means the world still has good in it.
of course, this is a good thing, but we know some would rather this doesn't happen, and we all shut our brains off and consume whatever we are fed.
i honestly think that they only cared about the "darker of skin" part. they have proven that they dont care about the lore or the major tolkienian themes. They only use the lore to justify their bs concerning putting a """""modern spin""""" to tolkiens masterpiece.
Modern spite, more like.
If they adopt the fallowhides, then they loose the "darker of skin". If they adapt the harfoots, then they loose the adventures etc. Gues they prefer darker skin and just change the background story.
That was definitely their small-minded thought process. Too predictable.
You mean, lied about the backstory.
@@drajakovic
Logically or illogically people like that will say and do what they want. There is no sense in pointing out their obvious logical fallacies.🙄
They are not that much darker of skin in the series
You mena in the series were Leny Hendry not being darker of skin?
It's strange the makers of the show didn't go for the name Stoors, considering Smeagul is a Stoor Hobbit they could've tied him into the story somehow.
If they're going to make stuff up why not?
Because Harfoot are "darker of skin", which gave them an excuse to token in a few black Harfeet among otherwise all white cast of hobbits, so they could market themselves as diverse. They're selling the show to woke millennials, not Tolkien fans.
@@drajakovic have you ever heard of rhetorical questions?
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33 this rhetorical question has a very concrete answer.
They are psychopaths
Love this channel, please can we have a Fingon video. I’ve always felt the criticism around ROP somewhat justified, but in some cases unbalanced. My issue is with the Tolkien estate, who essentially sold a few chapters, then allowed other streaming sites to pitch a show around it. It’s equivalent of the Shakespeare estate selling acts 1, scenes 1,3 and Act 4 of Othello to make a show/movie. The show isn’t really for lore fans, but I think the Tolkien estate should share some of that blame. I personally think Amazon spent more on lawyers then writers to make sure it stays within the content the Tolkien estate allowed.
can't wait for the final "season" of your 2nd age adaptation!
There are, in Frodo's time, at least five types of Hobbits: Harfoots, Stoors, Fallohides, the hobbits living around Bree and the hobbits who live around the northern banks of the Anduin.
And if the second age really wanted to show hobbits perhaps show Sauron's armies on the move in the lands between the Entwash and the Mountains of Shadows, and the hobbits, lurking from their holes or underground shelters, quietly fleeing northwards. Or, to really emphasise just how stacked things were against the hobbits, perhaps have a scene of Easterlings or cruel men hunting hobbits for sport- that is in the book!
Criticisms are not hating. It's pointing out the blindingly obvious. That said I also HATE this show, simply because of the audacity of thinking you can improve on a timeless classic by inserting current sensibilities and re-purposing characters to pass arbitrary board room checks on what you think MUST be included in modern entertainment.
I personally don't really mind the diversity I just think the show is hacky. Seems like a Syfy special
I mind it.
If you “mind” diverse fantasy characters I don’t think the show is the issue.
Criticisms are not hating and should be welcome, however he is not criticizing the show and his words are just coming across as hate video after video because of these lofty ideas that you seem to share about Tolkien's work.
What modern sensibilities are they enforcing on this tail and how are they retelling the story and changing things? Where was the movie and television shows about this time prior? Tolkien didn't even write books on these things, most of this is just notes and brief backstories so what are you talking about? You're coming across as someone who is concerned about the fact that there are dark-skinned people which token would have acknowledged and is not disputed in the books so what is your problem there?
I hate to bring it up but a lot of people keep mentioning that Tolkien based his dwarves on Norse mythology and they described their dwarves as being black and dark skinned So why are you not up in arms about all the dwarves that are depicted as being white in this and so many other works?
You talk about criticism but you are not actually criticizing the show because it is a bad show, you are criticizing it because you have a certain viewpoint and you are demanding that that viewpoint be forced on everyone else which, and I hate to say this, but your viewpoint is shared by many racist and violent people and you are being lumped in that category.
Th3birdman released a short on reviewers recently talking about movie and TV critics and what they're actually criticizing, you should go watch it
If the color of peoples skin, or the thing between their legs bothers you so much thats not the shows problem. Thats yours.
Kudos My guy!
Not many can critique something while remaining cheerful and considerate.
This, is what I enjoy. A careful touch on a deviation from the source material, without rage.
Sincerely, Kudos.
I wish Newline Cinema and HBO had made this show. For all his faults, PJ demonstrated he was at least capable of following the lore’s key points (albeit with some changes) and create awesome cinematic moments
which lore though?
even Tolkien wasn't perfect on his lore, always rewriting or changing it.
example: the creation of orcs is a huge one! were they made from slime and mud? from tortured elves? tortured men?
lotr and the hobbit movies didn't follow the lore to the t either.
@@spacegobbieentertainment4270 Yes, but as Dave laid out in this video... these people have completely contradicted the pretty solid source material.
@@hleewoodcock I mean, so has every other director/movie industry.
Harfoots were the first to migrate, yes. They have portable harfoot holes. While not dug into the ground, this can atleast be argued as them on their way? They have the looks correct as well, the harfoots are tiny.
There's always going to be a bit of contention on how they take creative licensing in the direction of the series. I don't think the imagery of harfoots/hobbits was bad at all.
Not say to... gladriel turning down going to valinar. (I think that was a bit extreme change imho) but it got plot moving.
I dont recall anyone raising a fuss that arwyen was there recieving frodo, instead the other elf lord who was reborn. (I dont remember his name off the top of my head.) Or that people complained about in fellowship of the ring, we watch uruk-kai being born from mud and slim, when sarumon stated orcs came from elves that were twisted. Which that movie directly contradicted itself.
Atleast there was some lore behind this, AND it hasn't caused a continuity error within the actual movies that are around.
If we name every lore bit that was changed for every movie, we'd never get new and creative Tolkien works.
@@hleewoodcock The question is how important or relevant the source material is to telling a compelling story.
Does it matter for the show or the entire universe that the harfoots were perhaps more sedentary than depicted in the show? Does it matter if they are a few inches taller or shorter?
There is a clear difference between how important certain parts of lore are. does it matter who morgoth is and what his history within the universe is? YEs absolutly, its a piece of lore that has significant consequence for everything that happens.
Does it matter how tall a harfoot is in tolkiens writing vs the show? No.
Not all lore needs to be treated with the care of being gospel in the bible. Frankly people who *lore bash* by taking trivial or unimportant parts of lore as an argument against the show are just petty and activly looking for reasons to be derisive.
ITs also dishonest? because if we were to apply the same granularity to P.J. adaptation of the source material, it would fall apart in the fellowship in the same way. Yet Lotr is considered a masterpiece despite playing very loose with the source material aswell.
as a last part aswell: Just because a piece of lore exists, doesnt mean its inherently good or superior to other adaptations or interpretations of the lore.
Take the Nazgul: P.j. adaptation? Amazing. Lore source material? a big meeeeeeh.
To bring an analogy from a different fictional universe:
Does it matter that kylo ren in TROS uses a death star 2 era tie to fly to exegol eventho those ties in lore dont have hyperdrive capability?
no it just doesnt matter, who cares, maybe it was an exceptional prototype.
We talk about entirely fictional universes. None of it is real, none of it is a fact or a truth. We can infact just slightly alter it or change it or play it a bit more loosey goosey the same way tolkien never turned the magic system in middle earth into a hard system and just kept it loose and flexible
@@katraapplesauce1203 wonderful take on it. We also have to remember that they didn't have access to all source materials. We sit here as laymen judging continuity when they probably had lawyers and Tolkien scholars pawing over every word to make sure it was legal to produce. I would love to see what could be made if all of His works were able to be accessed for a show like this
I don’t hate the show, but I do think your channel is better rainbow Dave 👍🏽 I learn so much here! Thanks for the great content!
u learn so much about fantasy... kinda a paradoxon isn't it?
@@sigi60six6schmitt6 LOL such is life!
@@sigi60six6schmitt6 tolkiens work is much more than fantasy. Tolkien demonstrates how every word has meaning, how etymology develops.. and it’s art.. a master class in writing and building a fictional universe.
Great video! I totally agree that the Harfoots portrayed in ROP really resemble Fallohides more. I think it just came down to the show runners deciding the “Harfoot” sounded better than “Fallohide” to the casual viewer. It sounds closer to Hobbit and casual viewers can associate that name more readily with Hobbits because they know that Hobbits have large, hairy feet. Honestly, this is the least of the problems with the way ROP has adapted the works of Tolkien. I really wanted to like the show and went into the first episode with high hopes and an open mind but each episode has been increasingly difficult to accept this as anything more than generic fantasy fiction that uses the names of people and places from Tolkien’s writing.
No, the only reason they did it because they read "browner of skin". Their entire marketing strategy is not to appeal to millions of Tolkien fans, because, I guess, that calls for good research and solid storytelling, but to toot the diversity horn. That's why they put a black male actor and a Caribbean female actor among a bunch of white actors, so they can pretend to be diverse. That's why the one black elf that totally doesn't belong, and the reason why he's black is that he used to be a farmer 🤦🏻♀. The sad thing is that their marketing trick worked, because now everyone who points out this hypocrisy gets called a racist.
@@drajakovic I did wonder at that a little. I’m by no means apposed to diversity but how does this little isolated place (I’ve only seen the first ep) have more than one skin tone? It doesn’t seem like they’re travelers or welcome travelers.
And honestly if you come from good intentions I’d brush the racism backlash off. I got called racist for refusing to pay any mind to the little mermaid remake bc they’re using a black actress to defend against any criticism of another soulless remake. I’d go see it if she was a new black mermaid with a new story with new culture to take insperation from. Ariel came from a culture. Let’s have a Caribbean mermaid princess. Or something off the coast of Africa taking from a real culture off the continent. There doesn’t have to be one mermaid. Plenty of the others have two feet!!!
😮😢😮😢😢😢😮😮😢😢😮😮😮😢😢😮😮😮😢😢😮😮😢😢😮😮667
Your correct, if they Wana rewrite Tolkien they should probably stop calling Lord of the rings:rings of power . Just call it Bezos's rings of power
Or folks like you could realize movies and books are different things and not insist on everything conforming with your biases.
Watching nerds combine forces with far right bigots has been incredibly gross to watch.
@@shaneatkins6929 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@shaneatkins6929 stop playing 🤡
@@shaneatkins6929 literally
@@shaneatkins6929yeah but the books and movies are actually consistent and well written. How dare we expect consistency of quality and respect.
I am concerned for this show and how true to the written lore they will stay i already worry that the man who fell in fire is their version of gandalf
Which would be an entire age too early than when he was actually sent to middle earth
You don't need to ruin the show, it does a great job of ruining itself
No it don't y u lie
@@seth8449 paied shill, lol
The Harfoots in the RoP were no more than filler characters to run the clock down in the show.
Which is insane considering all the slow motion and slow pacing
You were way nicer than I would’ve been 😂. I’m quite disgusted at how much of this series is so far left field of what Tolkien wrote. TL;DR: the 16 pages of the second age doesn’t justify what they did because they didn’t even do that part either
I've always interpreted the "browner of skin" as that they were white like the Stoors and the Fallohides but with a browner skin tone, like Mediterranean people compared to Scandinavians. I feel like if Tolkien wanted us to picture the Harfoots as sub-Saharan black he would have gone into more detail than simply writing "they were browner of skin". Just my interpretation though.
He based them more on the yeoman farmers of England, who were working long hours in the sun, so naturally they were tanned
Tolkien based his Hobbits on the people of Western England. Browner of skin just means those who spend many hours working outside, not African. Putting a bunch of Africans in the setting of what represents medieval England is just Amazons insistence on diversity casting .
Woodsmennand hill and mountainfolk also are tanned bekieve me. They are a different ethnicity...
But certainly not african.Though i do not mind much for their supposed forefathers tousands of years earlier tbh..
Trying to tell people this especially poc is like telling a blind man the sky is blue or grass is green.
I like how yall are really stuck up on raxe, like get over it bro it's a TV show jesus
Well the Fallohides were fairer of skin, hence would not conform to the casting ratios that Amazon had decided on. Honestly this might be the reason for having Harfoots in the show.
I'm really excited about your future Lore Review videos! I don't know much of anything about the second age, so I have no idea what RoP is getting wrong beyond a vague feeling of "this doesn't seem to add up with the stories I know..."
Glad to know Dave's got my back :)
I have disliked the dishonest storytelling of ROP but would never dump on the show in your comments section, I know that is not what you try to do. Growing up a Tolkien fan since the 70's, I'm extremely appreciative of your videos, research and presentation. I have watched every one of them and hope you have many more coming. BTW your elvish is fantastic!
Honestly I think this is the least of shows problems. It is a masterclass in bad writing, with poor pacing, contrived plot points , shallow characters and general cheesiness.
I liked the Harfoot arc :(
Rainbow Dave, you are so much above this series that they do not deserve you even mentioning them. Everything this show touches gets tainted, stay in the light.
Much love.
why they gotta be such heartless psychopaths tho 😭😭😭
Hey! That is not polite to psychopaths!🤪
That's putting it Nicely...
What sucks is, and Star Wars you’re included in this, we WANT to like it. And I TRY to like it. “Ok Galadriel is way different, I guess that’s ok”. “Hmmm Harfoots are different. Sure”
But they just make it hard to enjoy. Because Tolkien’s work is incredible and doesn’t need to be changed at all
Dont worry guys we were told by countless youtubers (not this one) that the show is in great hands and took great pains to deep dive the lore.
Yeah it is weird how people forcebthemselvesvto look away so actively and hard engaged trying to convince themselves.
Sure did, and the people that own the rights to the lore and that are actual scholars of the lore are backing this up so all of these supposed "criticisms" can stuff it
They delved too deep...
@@Darthalas There are so many holes in the plot. Forget the lore. The writing is puerile.
@@poetry7260 excellent, you're saying there are plot pulls outside of the lore.... What are those? Because I've been able to follow the show pretty well and they haven't changed things up left and right.
Elrond hasn't been shown to not know who the heck the dwarves are... Galadriel hasn't sprouted wings.... They haven't shown The hobbits to be 6 ft tall.... So where all these potholes and inconsistencies, outside of the lore as you said, that plague the show so terribly as to make it unwatchable? I'm not being smart with you I genuinely want to know as The biggest critiques that I have seen by the thousands upon thousands is the fact that there are dark-skinned people being depicted....
The Prime Hobbits are just EVIL.
Sorry to be 'that guy' but I think we all know that as far as the showrunners are concerned, the only words of any importance, the words that everything else will be twisted to accommodate, are 'browner of skin'. Most of the contradictions with the 'people' they are calling Harfoots, stem from this single desire. There is no scene in this show where it's 'agenda' is not visible in a ham-fisted way.
Yeah definitely enjoyed this, as someone who has learn most of my Tolkien lore from you’re channel and Nerd of the Rings I actually don’t realize at times just how off the Amazon show is. By seeing where they went wrong it helps your viewers who want to tell stories learn from their mistakes and maybe one day make better Tolkien stories Thank you!
It is very troubling that you are criticizing the show but you're stating that your primary source of JRR tolkiens lore is not the books themselves but this RUclips channel...
@@Darthalas As a filmmaker and screenwriter I don’t need to be fully familiar with Tolkiens work to recognize poor writing, stiff acting and weak directing. All qualities of the show. I’m referring specifically to aspects of the lore that are less obvious even when reading the professors actual works.
@@Darthalas Tolkien scholars exist for a reason 🙄
@@TheEliasNoel That is your opinion, and your opinion is not fact. Just because you said doesn't mean that it is true no matter what your profession is, there are plenty of filmmakers that are not sitting here on a RUclips channel arguing with a non-filmmaker that are praising the show and have enjoyed what they've done and are looking forward to more.
Moreover, as a filmmaker who is critiquing an aspect of a show for it not sticking to its source material, why have you not completely read the source material? You make no sense
@@drajakovic I'm sorry is there an official class that I can go to? Can I earn a degree in JRR Tolkien work and get a job at various places around the world making money using my degree? You do realize that "JRR Tolkien scholars" are either people that are part of his estate whose purpose is to expand the estate and make them more money (which is why THEY did the show) or they are simply major fans of the works (The bulk of the people that post here that think they are scholars) And they have done nothing that any other person that sits down and reads the books can do. Their words have no great weight or change anything nor are they fact about anything as they are not part of the estate and cannot set any policy or make any official announcements.
So what is your point? You do realize that this is not some religious text and that JRR Tolkien's goal was to make money right?🙄🙄
I don't know why so many creators tip toe around how bad the show is to give their criticism more legitimacy and avoid the wrath of the agenda-driven lunatics. It's not "hating" to point out how awful ROP is on so many levels.
It's a disservice to decent and honest writing to sugar coat this train wreck. I do despise the rage baiters out there though, it never helps anything but their wallets.
I just discovered your channel, you're brilliant. Your arguments are always sound and come a deep love and appreciation for Tolkien's work.
Unfortunately, we live in a world where you can't have an opinion on a TV show without being told by hundreds of idiots how awful and racist and hateful you are. I totally agree with you though, ROP is absolutely awful, both as an adaptation and just as a story in its own right. It truly feels like it was written by three year olds at times 🤦
After watching your “what the adaptation should have been” I just can’t bring myself to watch any more of Amazons atrocity. I didn’t like it before but to then been giving such a beautiful vision of what it could have been…. I now hate their creation for it means we won’t get a good version anytime soon.
Yes! I feel the same way. I already disliked ROP as both an adaptation and general fantasy. But having such a clear vision of what we could have gotten made my blood boil. Especially because they had to resources to do it. Hopefully we get a good version of the second age in our lifetime. 🤞🏻
Great video. I'm kinda surprised and disappointed you didn't mention that only a small part of them are "browner of skin" (one black actor and one Caribbean actor), and the rest are white. How would that even work? I think I read an explanation somewhere that Harfoots from the show are a gathering of different tribes or subspecies, but again, how would that explain a Caribbean Harfoot? She'd have to travel a long way to get there. And was it ever mentioned hobbits lived that far south? And isn't this also the exact opposite of what Tolkien wrote, that hobbits came from one tribe and then separated, not gathered from many tribes (and how did those tribes came to be in the first place) and then melted into one.
I have so much fun listening to these episodes! Thank you. I had a smile on my face while someone was discussing the rings of power and how it ties or fails to tie into tokens actual work. That is not easy to pull off! Well done.
Correct me if I’m wrong: Tolkien never went into (as you accurately called them) “proto-hobbit” lore. My recall from the early Hobbit lore is that all of the hobbit races started off in the Northeast region of the Misty Mountains and left at different times due to the WitchKing of Angmar to WANDER South and then into Eriador. I assume that this included the Harfoots, otherwise they’d never had made it to the Shire. It seems to me that these Ring of Power proto-hobbits pretty much took the same, seasonal migration every year for food. After the volcanic eruption and increasing orcs, maybe this caused them to migrate away from the troubles in the Southlands and eventually stop seasonal wandering and become more like the Shire-Harfoots only to be chased into Eriador. Maybe these Proto-Hobbits are a blend of all the Hobbit races that Tolkien places East of the Mountains in the third age.
Pretty much my line of thinking. Time will tell (or not).
They mostly crossed the Misty mountains, either through or near the High pass (Harfoots) or the Redhorn pass (Stoors), or even further north (Fallohides). They were running away from evil spreading from Dol Guldur and Mirkwood. Angmar was only founded 250 years later and drove them away from northern Eriador. If anyone went south through the Gap of Rohan, they were the Stoors, but it was likely not a large and dominant group. They finally settled again in the shire some 500 years after that and stayed for 1500 years until the end of the third age and likely longer. The fact that this 500 year period is called Wandering days suggests they did not travel much during their time in the northern Vales of Anduin and were pretty at home there. But these so called Wandering days happened some 2500 years after the Rings of Power were made. What was happening to hobbits during the Second age is completely unknown apart from the fact that they originated in the First age with other Men in Hildorien cca 2000 years prior to the making of the Rings. They must have travelled from the Far east to the Vales of Anduin somehow. However, it seems unlikely to me their sub-breeds would be changing their culture rapidly from Fallohidish to Harfootish back and forth, since they are all very conservative and reclusive compared to other breeds of men. Biologically, their small stature could be explained as a result of island dwarfism or "pygmyism", where the islandness is caused by their cultural tendency to isolationism. Apart from that, they all had hairy feet, not just harfoots, and they were not called hobbits (holbytla, hole-dwellers) before they were named such by the Northmen of Rhovanion, so it is perfectly possible their hairy feet were their distinguishing property and the Fallohides and Stoors separated from Harfoots only later.
Couldn't agree more and correct me if I'm wrong but Tolkien insinuated at the very least that records of the ancient past are blurry at best. Tolkien's own notes conflict with the lore and the only canon he would have called cannon were the published books not anything his son or descendants have published were finished stories.
Spot on!! The Legendarium is written in a way to invite interpretation and I hate when people so staunchly cry that their understanding is the only valid one. I have personally slogged through the bore fest that is the Silmarillion and I absolutely loved the show.
They didn't care about the lore on a deeper level, they just wanted that "brown of skin" part as a Motte & Bailey tactic to explain why their casting was "lore accurate".
For a Tolkien devote, this may be a shock, how the creators didn't call them Fallohides but Harfoots. For the rest it's potáto - potàto. Personally, I wish the creators had left the whole Hobbit part out of the series, as it doesn't add anything, apart from who the tall Stranger actually is. (of which I got a very strong suspicion, but will not utter in case it will maybe be a spoiler) And from what I hear left and right, many people are disappointed in the addition of this part in the series.
@Aung Ramen In the end, I find the series better than I expected. It's still very shallow, compared to other series, but it's ok. But those Harfoots... I guess the series was so expensive, they needed a cheap filler to fill the gaps
@@el7griego I actually like the Harfoots story the best. I like Nori and friends better than the other characters and I like the Stranger so…yeah. My least favorite episode in the series was the one where they didn’t show up in it
Good morning. Thanks for the video
There were Harfoots, Fallowhides, and Stoors.
Smeagol was a Stoor
you are probably the best Lord of the rings Channel I've ever seen on RUclips
I like the balance of long form lectures and shorter untanglements. Timely and appropriate rebuttal.
We know what they are.
They are this series grogu or baby Yoda. They can't have hobbits but want it so they slap a coat of paint on it and say it's a different car.
They are plot device's and something to check off the list so they can say they are "Lord of the ringsing it".
They can have Hobbits - they licensed the rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, including appendices. Plenty of Hobbits there, but they had to change that too (or at least muddy the waters unnecessarily).
You are amazing. You are so much connected to the source material and I appreciate getting your point of view. You are the Tolkien guardian ... I love you for that!
Thanks!
I absolutely love hearing about how the show agrees/disagrees with the original lore!! Please keep making videos like this regardless if they agree with the TV show or they contradict it ... regardless, I really just want to know how much the Hollywood hacks stick to the source material and how much they shit on it (as most of Hollywood does now days)...
I appreciate you and your show so much! You literally bring up issues in this show that I was just explaining to a friend. Keep being awesome.
tbh this is a detail that while it may diverge from the source material, doesn't really bother me in the slightest. I'm very much enjoying the show.
If you read through Concerning Hobbits, they actually got far more right than wrong and the points brought up here are incredibly nitpicky.
Totally agree 😊👍🏼 I love the show for its own sake. It’s ‘derived’ from Tolkien’s lore, not a faithful reproduction. I’m enjoying the show’s creation of individual character’s storylines within the framework Professor Tolkien developed. For each cringe moment (eg the demented, cross-eyed ‘warg’) there have been many many brilliant and powerful and emotional scenes. And frankly the hate this show has received is so ridiculously entrenched and irrational that it’s not worth engaging with.
Thank you for your positive tone as always. It’s refreshing to hear a knowledgeable individual make a cogent researched criticism about this show. So many fans of Tolkien are understandably upset about various aspects of RoP. It’s hard for them not do an hour long video tearing it apart. And I canT blame them - it been a disrespectful adaptation. But this is the type of organized thought out video that people really need. Thank you for not simply Shouting into the void.
Don't worry because when these evil hobbits get done leaving all their friends behind and get to where they are going they will be the founding members of the shire and their traveling days will be over. Much like the Mt. Doom origins and orc origins and mithril origins and so on this show is trying to change the books(lore). There is not one redeeming quality that has been gained through 7 episodes and it doesn't look like there will be, I don't see how it can really. I'll just stop there because there is nothing good to say about it.
New leak: the finale of episode 8 shows a youngish Bilbo waking up with a rather upset expression, clutching his stomach, and shouting at Lobelia Sackville-Baggins: "This is the last time I come over for lunch, you and your mushrooms!"
@@dlevi67 at least bilbo got some shrooms, lol. He would need them dealing with this rendition of Hobbits. At least we know now why smeagol was batshit, he comes by it honestly. The ring didn't drive him crazy, his ancestors had already cornered the market.
@@meostafford It's about the only thing that this show manages to 'explain' in a way that makes sense (Sméagol being a psycho).
Aren't Tolkien's description contradictory though? They are described wanderers/nomads and also described as least adventurous and most likely to stay in one place?
they are not described as "wanderers/nomads"
have you actually watched this video?
They are absolutely described as wanderers. The “wandering days” applies to all hobbits, meaning that the Harfoots went through a nomadic phase as well, which should be obviously apparent from the fact that they didn’t start out in the shire. The comparison is that they are MORE hole-dwelly than the other types and maintained the tradition of hole dwelling. Honestly, I think that their hole-like wagons actually fit with that particularly well. The argument that they should always be hole dwellers is unfounded.
Thank you Rainbow Dave for another excellent video.🤘. The writers picked through Tolkien’s lore and only grabbed what THEY liked regardless of if it made sense. The results look like the equivalent of a picky toddler alone at a buffet who walks away with gravy, grapes and chocolate ice cream… Sure, it’s all edible BUT it makes no sense under scrutiny by an adult. This show is a mess and I’m never going to watch it. The disappointment I already feel over the destruction of such an amazing story makes it impossible for me to stomach it. (Bad writing is just BAD writing regardless of the inspiration and flat out LYING to the audience is disingenuous on Amazon’s part with their trivia)
When Tolkien wrote 'browner of skin', didn't he mean something like Spanish or Sicilian or Black Irish, rather than African? It, so far as I can recall, is fairly well represented in D&D 2nd Ed. The D&D divide between the three Hobbit races is also fairly spot on. I think it's pretty sad that Tolkien and D&D took different paths after OD&D because of the lawsuit. Gygax (until becoming salty and claiming he was not particularly inspired by Tolkien after the lawsuit) actually represented Tolkien much better than the Peter Jackson films. All the D&D people did after the split was to rename the characters and creatures using extremely small changes, whereby Balrogs became Balor, Hobbits became Halflings (the latter term even used by Tolkien in Rohan) and rangers were still almost exclusively based on Aragorn. Elves for whatever reason became shorter (perhaps because Elves in later folklore as opposed to Norse mythology were often considered identical to Fairies and thus diminutive in size) and they now lived for centuries or at most a millennium (shortened in subsequent editions) as opposed to being immortal as far as age was concerned. It didn't really matter. It was always mainly a Tolkien ripoff and everyone who was in the know knew as much, even though the 'lady did protest too much'. So it was a shame the split occurred at all. It could have remained a Tolkien+ (i.e., combined with other worlds and authors' works) game, being as it was, much more faithful than most other adaptations I have seen. So far as I can recall, the connections between Harfoots and Dwarves, Fallohides and Elves and Stoors and Men (and let's not call this race "humans" because "Men" as Tolkien calls them, true to his age, sounds much more "historical"/"fantasy"), is also maintained between the three (renamed) Hobbit races in D&D.
I know this video was from 8 or 9days ago. After watching the scene between Galadriel and Sauron making him his Queen, it looks so uncomfortable to watch🤦♀️. I had to come to your channel and watch your videos as mind-cleansing. I wish they didn't make Galadriel and Sauron have a thing together.
The Harfoots or Harfeet if you prefer, remind me of The Victorian English noblemen stereotype of the Irish. Little, silly, dirty leprechauns. Eating slugs and singing about never leaving a friend behind while leaving behind a friend who’s too slow. Slainte!
Here’s my guess. The reason why the show runners insisted that the halflings in the show are Harfoots is because of the “browner of skin” term. They wanted to use that to explain the representations and diversity in the hobbit culture in the show. That’s why the willfully ignore and omit other traits of the harfoots in their show and the fun fact section. Instead, they made the harfoots possess traits specifically described belonging to the fallohides. Essentially, they loved everything about the fallohides (taller, bolder, adventurous, more friendly with the elves, skillful in language and song, preferring hunting and gathering than farming, possessing strong leadership capabilities), except that the fallohides were specifically described as being fairer of skin and hair.
That is the pink elephant in the room. It is also written into Amazon's casting DIE (diversity, inclusion, equity) requirements.
I'm okay with diversity, but a race of people with a "fuck it, we're leaving you behind" ideology and kids that aren't the same race as their parents is a bit much.
@@sarbnitrof4663 This has NOTHING to do with diversity. It has to do with canon, lore, cultural awareness, and cultural respect. Amazon and the showrunners had easy access to diversity within the canon, but instead, they tokenized black and brown actors into white roles. It is shameful backwards thinking.
I do agree that the show is poorly written otherwise. It is worse than literature I have read created by middle school students. Time, place, plot, progression, immersion, and characterization are all lacking. It's bad.
@@Too-Odd are you sure about the diversity thing? As a mulatto God myself, I had the decency to look like s combination of both my parents rather than neither of them. I can only pass the paperbag test 3 seasons out of the year
@@sarbnitrof4663 I am not sure what you are asking.
It annoys me when shows/movies tht are prequels try and rely on fan favourite things like hobbits when Tolkien never really wrote any stories on them in the second age. You don’t need to follow an exact script from Tolkien to make a beautiful and amazing story, the groundwork has been done by him and his sons so just fill in the gaps wth something new. If I wanted awesome hobbit characters then I would read the hobbit or LOTR, if I want awesome elven characters then I will read the silmarillion and the fall of gondolin, and if I want to read about men then I want to see them as the final main protagonists in the second age, not side characters thrown into a time period tht I’m pretty sure is SA1000 mixed in wth SA3000. Still, trying to remain positive and honestly love the way you speak elven (I think it’s quenya), something wth the accent and the language itself makes it sound perfect 😂
1:40 picture - why Nori is sitting like this? 🤔 How can you even spread like this and feel any comfortable?
when I first saw the proto-hobbits in the trailers I remember thinking, "Oh cool, fallohides! They're going to give us an origin story of the Tooks/Bucks!" ....🙄
Just wishful thinking. I saw a lot of RoP leaks videos and analysis of Amazon's releases, so I knew they were Harfoots. It is also the only way that I can sit through an episode and watch it, because I know what they're doing.
Yes sure, Harfoots didn't exist back then. According to JRRT we can be sure some sort of Hobbit ancestors did exist since the first age somewhere and were "a savage people", and i think even western rhun or southeastern rhovanion makes sense in the way as they'll have to learn agriculture from either humans or directly entwives at some point but... i would't have called these Harfoots! Also Westron language or Family names shoukd't exist yet at that stage, i'd givennthem right away talking names or some neo-avarin derived maybe if their ancestors had some contact with wild elves at some point.
Apparently no one can just enjoy the show for what it is, Entertainment. It seems everywhere I see online relating to the series, everyone must always criticize and teardown everything there is about the series. I'm tired of it. It is a good series so far and no one else is making Tolkien related content, but apparently the "fans" are unable to do anything but express hatred. Well if you think you can do better, get off your ass and make a better tv series for it. Otherwise you have zero room to talk shit about it. Don't enjoy it? Then don't fucking watch it.
Frankly, you seem to be ignoring the lore just as much as you accuse the show runners of. Concerning Hobbits says of Harfoots, "They moved westward early, and roamed over Eriador as far as Weathertop while the others were still in the Wilderland." Regardless of Harfoots being more inclined to settle than other hobbits: they wandered, and were the first hobbits to do so. This direct statement matters a heck of a lot more than what the lore states they were "most inclined" to do. As for height, all ancient hobbits were taller, Harfoots included. The show doesn't say ancient Harfoots were taller than other hobbits, I don't know why you're interpreting it that way. As for hobbits coming together as one people, you are ironically kinda making their point: Bilbo was descendant from two different lines of hobbits. It seems safe to assume that this would not have happened in older times due to more limited contact between the groups. Similarly, the fact that we as humans (typically) see other humans as fellow humans regardless of race, culture, etc is a fairly new phenomenon that shows we have come together as one people, at least compared to prior points in history.
It was the intent of the “activists” who wrote and produced this ROP program to demean Tolkien’s work. In many American higher education institutions and among certain political activist organizations the central premises is to demean everything about the “colonists of western civilization.” White people are to be protested as evil. When dealing with an academic like Tolkien, however, they just rip the work apart. Since Tolkien is a respected academic of that civilization he is a target that is to be made an example of along with all who loved his work.
At the moment inside the entertainment corporations they are targeting every hero of past generations as well as the heroes of the past decade! It seems that everything that people enjoyed during the past 400+ years is “racist” or some other negative descriptive term that defines the people of the west as evil. There is a political terminology for this activity that I will not quote here but if you have studied political science you probably know what it is.
Another sad part of this situation is that American schools have been being severely dumbed down for the past 40+ years so that many people do not question the things that they observe on television or at the movies because they do not have the background information needed to make an informed assessment of what they are being presented with.
The actor who played Sam in the Jackson movies admitted that he graduated from a major university in California but had never heard of Tolkien when he was informed about the casting call.
The Jackson Lord of the Rings trilogy was a very good production but there were so many changes made in the motivations and personalities of the characters that it was frustrating for anyone who actually read the books. Since it was a good production in itself you cannot explain that to someone who has not read any of Tolkien’s work. Jackson felt free to make the changes that he wanted to but do not try to sell me the fact that he was trimming down the work. He changed vital parts of the story that had nothing to do with the length of the film. None the less he did not do the insult to Tolkien that the ROP did. That was just an outright gutting of his work. It was a production done by amateurs that wanted to insult Tolkien and his fans. The writing was so bad that the actors had to have had a difficult time spitting out the horrible lines given to them to say. “Our hearts are as big as our feet!” “The sea is always right!” Oh, please!
We did not watch the series despite the many communications from Amazon telling us about this grad work that they were presenting but we did watch many reviewers videos. That was more then enough. Such a sad state of affairs.
Most INCLINED meaning they are more likely to settle not that they must be settled, and the group shown probably aren’t the only Harfoots in existence.
The show is not derived from Tolkien's writings. The writers are just doing whatever the hell they want, lore be damn. They already kill Galadriel with the pyroclastic flow and before that have her acting like she is 16y years old. She is so annoying.
Think harfoots sounds more interesting but misnaminf them creates story confusion and flummoxes future movies/TV shows that wishes to use them, as well as fallohydes..
Thank you for all of your wonderful content on the Tolkien Legendarium. You are my go to channel for Tolkien information. I especially enjoyed your First Age Playlist! I would like to know if you have a video of the last battle of the first age or the end of Beleriand available? And also if you still intend to do a similar playlist for the second and third ages. Thank you again!!!
It is kinda nuts that they could have avoided this type of critique by literally one change (Fallohides instead of Harfoots) and just ... did not
The show is an adaptation, not a documentary.
I think it is too soon in this adaptation to make the determination that they aren't really Harfoots. Harfoots are the only group that would be in this region, and them settling down into a more Shire-esque Hobbit could be part of their story development. They have already pushed out their boundaries by allowing the stranger to travel with them, and now they are heading toward human settlements to help him. This could certainly be their first steps into those cross race relationships you reference. Also all of their traveling carts were destroyed, seems like a good reason to decide to settle down, especially if they start making ties with others near by.
It is in their nature to be more sedentary, it's not because some meanies broke their carts
And after the carts were destroyed, they immediately started moving again….
I think it's safe by now to say they aren't Harfoots. You're hanging onto a lost hope that this show will turn out to have something to do with Tolkien, besides the names. Let it go and learn to laugh again. The show's great for that.
And their last names already are found in LOTR movies so we are following hobbit ancestors of some of the shire members.
Except that Harfoots are not the ones to mix with humans or strangers or anyone else. He just told you so in the video.
They can't call 'em Fallohides and I think we all know why. The showrunners decided what they're gonna be as soon as they saw "browner of skin".
It is also pretty obvious from the series that, rather than wander, the Harfoots migrate. Probably seasonally.
Reading comprehension is a very real problem for many people, television show creators included.
The lying is very important to point out I as it speaks to the integrity of production. These are only some of the lies told about production and it’s quite disturbing
Interesting but not surprising. The show seems to have trouble even staying consistent within its own narrative. Not much attention to details paid.
The worst part of the show
Jeez, I tried to watch some of rings of power… unwatchable.
Glad you’re doing this. Your tone is always so positive, and I think it’ll be wonderful for the show’s audience to have somewhere they can go to easily and quickly find out what’s been changed in a pleasant way.
I'm gonna tell you something some will not like. They only used Harfoots because of the 'Browner' part. Which is a misinterpretation in the show. Its like when they had Stephen Colbert do the 'other minds and hands' quote at comic con and deliberately missed on the bit about it being dedicated to England only to have him lie and recontextualise it as ' Tolkien wanted to write a story for everyone'. This of course changes nothing about the show itself but lets go in with our eyes wide open as to their intentions.
Totally agreed. Tolkien wanted to write a story for everyone, and he wasn't shy about borrowing from other traditions (from Norse Eddas to the Finnish Kalevala to the Greek Atlantis). He also repeatedly and explicitly said that he was trying to create an English mythology...
🤔 why would they get that wrong...that would have not been a hard detail to follow to create the series.
This show is outrageous, this is the least of its problems! So go ahead and destroy it...
You aren't ruining the show for anyone... the show did it itself
Thank you, quality insight and well articulated as always. Would love to see you on a podcast or some sort of collab with The Red Book. The absolute goats of Tolkien youtube
You do understand that everything amazon does has to go through the loremasters at Tolkien estate
I want to see brown and black skin in middle earth. Hears how: Far Harad and the east. Just give us those regions that Tolkien actually wrote about. Give them humanity. Lets have a whole black civilization with a leader who gets a ring of power. I think it almost certain at least one ringwraith was black. It seems like Sauron wouldve spread them out to the corners of mankind for maximum effect. The only named ringwraith-Khamul was a man of the east-that could be middle eastern or indian or east asian....theres so much potential for diversity thats true to the lore. No, lets make random harfoots and Numenorians black. Diversity accomplished. It seems like a shallow and superficial approach that shows a lack of thoughtfulness.But thats just my opinion. It doesnt ruin my appreciation for the show in general.
Well stated, but watch out for the cry babies who cry, "Racist!"
And this is where you lose me.
Being so breathless about a show that is hamstrung by not having access to all of the lore is kinda comical. Adaptations are called adaptations for a reason.
On top of that, in Peter Jacksons LOTR the Hobbits when interacting with any other race was just bad because they were so small and obviously not portrayed by the actual actors. Expecting a series to spend the time and expense portraying even smaller characters is just unrealistic.
Even more, I don't seem to remember the other breeds of hobbit even mentioned, I could be wrong, but I suspect that in the show the Harfoot are just what Hobbits are called before they migrate west and settle in the shire. If they had gone with the other branches of Hobbits there would be endless complaining either that the actors were too dark skinned to be from the other 2 types of hobbit from the lore nerds or that there wasn't enough diversity in the cast if they went with the lighter skinned type of hobbit from the SJWs.
There is no pleasing everyone - After reading comics most of my life I understand that not every telling is the same -shit, even Tolkien can;t keep his story straight as you yourself have pointed out about other aspects of the lore.
Aside from maybe 1 sentence, I love this comment. Bravo.
Well I can’t remember if it was Merry or Pippin that sung, but I’m wondering now if one them had a little more Fallohides ancestry since they also preferred to gather. It would make since that the quartet (Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry) would all be a mixture of all 3 since they all displayed those characteristics.
This was an amazing video. ❤
Star Wars did stuff like this with how the Mandalorians were portrayed as pacifists. This was very at odds with the lore, but presented room to tell a story that showed how this was a phase, and set the stage for the mndalorians we would go onto see.
Since this show is taking place in the second age, I wonder if this is giving room to show a transition from an earlier story of Harfoots and the experiences that lead them to settle down and become the Harfoots we’re familiar with.
The fundamental difference is that George Lucas changed his universe to fit his vision and ignored what other creators had made. He never tried to gaslight the audience of clone wars on this front.
Why not hate the show? It’s frickin’ awful.
I have to change my opinion. After watching this for a second time I think you've missed a major point.
Harfoots is a name for two types of Hobbits. The first is the Proto-Hobbit they are in this second age tale. And as described by Tolkien as being 2 feet taller than they will be when they are but one of 3 types. And at this point they are also wanderers, which will also change as time goes on. So the ancient, or, proto-hobbits are referred to as Harfoots. From these ancient Harfoots spring two other types of Hobbits and the Harfoots are now known to be one of three types overall, 2 feet shorter than their ancient wandering cousins also called Harfoots, and also beardless and bootless. At this point also homebodies living in holes. So there really isn't anything there that contradicts the Hobbits that would be living in the second age. Hobbits do not appear until the third age, however there is also nothing said prohibiting ancient hobbits from living in previous ages. Even if Amazon is stretching that a bit, it's nothing compared to major changes of legendary character's general make-up. And in that respect, this is nothing. I do like the hobbits though, or I should say I want to like them. I think the idea is a good one, but they did it poorly. I believe these proto-hobbits were nothing more than a plot device to put a hobbit with Olorin, who I think they are setting up the wizard to be. Possibly Radagast, but more likely Gandalf, just not with that name because it belongs in the third age. Olorin, on the other hand, can be wherever Eru Iluvatar puts him.
I started watching the show with a very open mind, but even aside from all the deviations from the lore, I just don't find the show to be entertaining.
It's boring and pointless, or maybe soulless is more accurate.
My take is that the show is going to have the transition of Harfoots to the first modern hobbits. The prologue, Concerning Hobbits, only states that they have been making holes the longest, so that leaves open the idea that they didn't make holes at some point.
As for the height thing, I really think this is due to the nature of filming people of different sizes. The larger the difference in sizes are then, probably, the more complex the shots are to create and I can imagine they decided to make them larger in size, rather than smaller for that reason.
Please stop with the Rings of Power content, I'm here for Tolkien content
I like your videos (especially the elven royalty one) AND I also enjoy the show. It started off slowly and, sure, Galadrial gets on my nerves sometimes, but as long format entertainment there's a lot of time for character development. Episode 6 was fantastic and hopefully the rest of the season is just as good.
For people who hate on the the show for its 'modern spin,' please go watch something else if you can't stand diversity on screen. If you think black and brown people simply just existing on screen is a political statement you need to sort out your priorities.
I'm a huge Tolkien fan, my mixed race son is named after a Tolkien character and I'm glad he can one day watch the show and see himself reflected in the show's characters.
I need to show this to my husband ASAP. 😅