If you're frustrated by the Rings of Power artwork...fair enough. My reasoning was simply that a silver lining of the show's existence will be found in bringing new people into contact with Tolkien's work. Perhaps a few of the images will be familiar enough to help a newcomer grasp the overwhelming amount of lore I mentioned, perhaps not. Either way - rest assured - Rings of Power will never be a regular feature of the channel.
I started reading Tolkien because of Peter Jackson. I’m sure middle schoolers watching RoP will want to pick up Tolkien as well. :) At that, RoP might be even considered a eucatastrophe, lol.
Thank you, I appreciate the reassurance here! Honestly, I avert my eyes when images of the RoP actors come on screen because I don't want those visuals coming to mind when I read about characters whom I love so dearly.
I don't find it particularly bad honestly, as it is an easy reminder of who is who, but I can definitely understand why people wouldn't want to be reminded of the show 😄
@Meatman419 An overreaction like that is just pathetic. You shouldn't have to "think really hard" about whether you'll still listen to somebody just because they _might_ disagree with you about a TV show-which, if you actually read his community posts, you'll realize he's actually on the same side as you but doesn't want to make a big deal about it.
I see now why Elrond, despite a half elf is one of the most powerful character in the Third Age. He has Maiar blood in him and both the original high kings. I puzzled myself for years that why is a half elf in the throne of Rivendell.
@@erynlasgalen1949That’s an interesting point. Is he technically High King of the Noldor? Who inherited that title after Gil-Galad died at the end of the 2nd Age?
@@willmosse3684 I think Elrond might have been next in line except for the Mannish blood. Or perhaps Celeborn, but everyone seems to have gotten a sudden attack of humility. At least Elrond got his cousin's ring.
I think the biggest thing I got from this video (that I hadn't thought of in those terms before) was how Feanor's line doesn't continue. I'm sure this was very significant for Tolkien, as well as the irony that him having seven sons would have given him a better chance than most of having many descendants. Kind of a self inflicted side effect of the terrible Oath. Great video, thanks Dave!
Also fun how Feanor forged the Silmaril's and made everything go crazy in the First Age, helped by his sons, and then his only grandson (Celebrimbor) was instrumental in forging the rings and helping everything go crazy in the Second and Third ages.
I also found the Feanor aspect fascinating and tend to think of it as the last Embers of the secret fire that were sparked by Iru Aluvitar in the creation of Arda
I don't know, ask Talion and Turambar how good is to have the ire of Morgoth. While Fëanor in the end brought his doom onto himself, it is the Valar who were devoid of understanding of Melkor that brought about the darkening of Valinor and the Noldor rebellion after Melkor murdered Finwë. Was the (mis)shaping of Arda and the spoiling of the Spring of Arda not good enough clue how he will never change?
@@marcusgaius But as you said, they didn't understand evil at that time, It was something new to them. They thought Melkor would redeemed himself and change his ways, they didn't anticipate his deceit because deception is something only Melkor and his servants do. Also, how would you know that a person isn't going to change if you don't give them first the chance?
Obviously it's impossible to know for sure, but I think Tolkien would be very satisfied to see the amount of effort and research you put in to geek out about the elvish family tree and share it with others.
That bit about Galadriel's hair being symbolic of her lineage makes Gimli's request of it that much more significant from a literary perspective. Particularly as Gimli pledged to set in crystal as a "pledge of goodwill between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days." Another of Tolkien's little ways of reminding us that magic lives on past the bittersweet ending of his tale. (Yes, I know there's also the significance of her thrice denying Fëanor a strand of her hair - but it wouldn't be the first time the Professor doubled down on his symbols.)
It's also kinda like Yavanna and Aulë's creations making peace with one another. Yavanna created the Two Trees of Valinor and their light lives on in Galadriel's hair, which Gimli the dwarf keeps as an heirloom
@@erynlasgalen1949she didn't deny Feänor out of pride but out of dislike. Also, Gimli didn't really ask. Galadriel kept insisting on him telling what his heart desires as a parting gift. And Gimi told her but still reiterated that he doesn't ask for anything. His level of humbleness was touching
25:43 Rings of power doesn't do a good job of illustrating that Galadriel is from the previous generation to Celebrimbor and Gilgalad, she comes off as more immature than the other two. It also doesn't help that the actress that plays her appears to be younger than the other two.
Can’t believe I just watched that whole thing. I’ll never not be sad about elves and magic departing from middle earth. But it’s so poetic I cannot be mad
I was listening and had a strange thought. Galadriel is herself the heir to three thrones. Elwing and Earendil are each the heirs to at least two, or the equivalents thereof. Elrond and Elros are actually the first two to have the rights of the kingship of all houses of both Elves and Men. Elrond's daughter ties the house of Finarfin directly back to the main royal line, and her son with Aragon reunites the lineages again with the house of Elros, meaning that the heir to be the next High King was also to all the thrones of Elves and Elf friends.
@@finrodfelagundmellonnin We only have an argument from silence, which is fallacious. We shall never know for certain, because after Gil-Galad none pressed a claim to the high kingship.
@@jayt9608 no its not a question of "argument from silence". We do have enough information to answer the question why no one claimed the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-Galad. The History of Middle earth gives us information about the customs of the Eldar, including their succession practices. Which can be used to glean an answer to the question of why Galadriel or Elrond (or any other Noldorin elf) is not eligible for that kingship.
By the time of Elrond’s daughter’s birth, Finarfin was the only son of Finwë still alive He still dwelt in Valinor and ruled as King of the Remaining Noldors there So I’m pretty sure his line was the main Royal line of the time since the direct line of Fingolfin seemingly ended with Gil-Galad
By the time of Elrond’s daughter’s birth, Finarfin was the only son of Finwë still alive He still dwelt in Valinor and ruled as King of the Remaining Noldors there So I’m pretty sure his line was the main Royal line of the time since the direct line of Fingolfin seemingly ended with Gil-Galad
Fun fact, Elrond and Celebrian are related in one more way. They are 1st cousins twice removed. Celebrian and Nimloth are first cousins since their fathers are brothers. Nimloth is Elrond's maternal grandmother thus two generations removed from Celebrian in that respect. I'm so stoked that you did a video on this subject. I think it's amazing how despite the fact that Finwe and Elwe would not meet again, their families would become so linked. I guess they had to make up for lost time somehow.
Actually Celebrian is first cousin to one of Elrond's grandmothers and the second cousin to the other. Idril is the granddaughter of Fingolfin while Celebrian is the granddaughter of Finarfin, thus making them second cousins. And of course, Nimloth's dad Galahond is Celeborn's brother, making Celebrian her first cousin. Celebrian is also related to Elrond's grandfather Dior, through both her parents (who themselves are second cousins). Needless to say, the family tree is a tad bit fucked up.
There's no way these twins could be Elwing's brothers Elúred and Elúrin. During the destruction of Doriath by the sons of Fëanor, aka the second kinslaying, they were children and taken by the servants of Celegorm to die in the forest. If anything, these twin elves would be Elladan and Elrohir, the sons of Elrond.
Worth noting: Since Indis is of the Vanyar royal family (either the daughter of the king of the Vanyar, or his niece), the children of Finarfin are descendants of three high elven royal families, not just the two more prominent ones.
That's why Galadriel acting up didn't make that much sense to me in Rings of Power. She should be wiser and far more mature for her absurd age than all the other characters combined. Like, seriously: I can't believe her is an ancient high elf when she acts like a teenager.
Maglor's fate has always intrigued me. Part of me thinks that although it's not explicitly stated, he dies with the drowning of Beleriand, but because this isn't stated, it could imply that he's still wandering Middle-earth throughout the second and third ages (and beyond). The former feels like a more fitting end, but if the latter is the case, then I have to wonder where Maglor is and what he's doing (aside from lamenting). Daeron of Doriath actually has a similar fate, so maybe there's a tragic great minstrel theme here.
I like to think that Maglor some how ran into Aldarion while he was exploring middle earth. They maybe talked and Maglor was hiding his identity because he didn't want to talk about how he almost killed Aldarions great great great great grandmother and stole away the Silmiill that ended up in the sky lol
I think Maglor stayed in the shadows and never interfered in any of the events of the next ages, accepting his punishment of loneliness and having to live with everything he did. This may be stupid but I headcanon he finally found redemption in the Fourth Age by pulling a Boo Radley and saving one of Aragorn and Arwen’s children from an Easterling during the years of Aragorn and Éomer cleaning up the remainder of Sauron’s evil in the East - perhaps the child out of curiosity wandered into dangerous territory and was ambushed, then Maglor heard screams and came to the rescue. Then when he took the child home he did not identify himself but was shocked and moved to recognize Elrond and Elros’ faces in Aragorn and Arwen’s.
Wouldn't an audiobook of, well everything Tolkien, narrated by Dave be just the BEST thing ever? The richness of his voice and the passion with which he speaks of these stories is fabulous!
Omg yes. Yes. Yes. This. I would absolutely pay for that. He reads everything with such passion. Just the way he reads from the texts puts him head and shoulders above other channels nvm all his research. The vast knowledge of the cannon etc etc.
After having read The Silarillion several times, I was aware of the relationships and that Eldarion represents every principal group that was opposed to Morgoth. Well done on laying it all out but it also pretty much sums up why I can't watch The Second Age. I watched the first two episodes and there is absolutely no way Elrond or even Celebrimbor would have shown such disrespect toward Galadriel. I could have let a lot of it go, including Galadriel attempting to sail back to Valinor before the ban of the Valar was lifted from her but no way could I tolerate both of much more youthful cousins talking down to her like they did in the program. The Second Age was only lightly touched upon so there was a lot of room to create storylines but that was a bridge too far for me.
these were my initial thoughts but if you think about it: - Gil-galad was high king, IIRC in the books in the first/second age up to the show's storytime Galadriel was just a noble that married another noble in the meantime and didn't do anything substantial just as any other female character (except Luthien and Elwing). she had no authority she had later in Lothlorien - if you live thousands of years with no change in appearance does it mean anything if someone is older or not really - in the LOTR both Elrond and Galadriel were clearly aware Ganndalf is a maiar and that doesn't stop them from talking to him as equeal so your birthright isn't everything I'm not saying I disagree with you but there can be made some fair counterarguments
Thirty odd years ago I stuck together multiple sheets of A4 and mapped out all of the family trees and how they intertwined. It took me a few nights to complete but it was so worth it. I remember the awe i felt at the end when it dawned on me the family connection between Arwen and Aragorn. It helped me to understand why Elrond was only happy (perhaps the wrong word) for Arwen to marry the High King of Gondor and Arnor. A mere Ranger was never going to be of high enough rank for a daughter of such a celebrated lineage. ❤❤❤
The only reason Elrond didn't want the union was because his beloved daughter would make the choice of mortality to be with her husband. There was no snootiness involved. Elrod would face the same grief that Thingol did. He'd lose a child to the real mortal death.
I always likened Muriel’s choosing to die to one hell of a case of postpartum depression. And it really wasn’t understood back then as well as it is now.
Yes, but the text seems to imply that Miriel - at least to some extent - chose to put so much energy into Feanor almost causing her 'depression'. Also her choice deprived Feanor of motherly love perhaps contributing to his turning into villain later on.
Everybody is bickering about an abysmal cash grab of a show and whether it is quality or not; and Rainbow Dave is just here doing the Lord’s work, eloquently and enthusiastically explaining the Family Royalty of the Eldar. Good on you Rainbow Dave!
Ingwe is actually not just the high king of the Vanyar, but also the high king of ALL elves. Also, Galadriel, her brothers and her full uncle's side were not at Alqualonde with Feanor and his group. They ended up going a different way where her father ended up deciding to stay on Valinor and the rest went east. That was why they were ever allowed to return to Valinor and never branded as kinslayers.
This shows how The Rings of Power doesn't make sense of the relationships between the Elves and how they treat one another. Firstly, Gil-galad is one of the few living relatives Galadriel has left and she is many respects more senior. In the newer line where Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, who is the son of Angrod, Galadriels brother. Orodreth is Galadriel's only nephew and surely would be dear to her after the death of all of her brothers. After Orodreth's death then Gil-Galad and his sister Finduilas were the only surviving descendants of her brothers until Finduilas dies, leaving Gil-galad and Galadriel as the only surviving members of Finarfins house, outside of Finarfin himself who still lived in Valinor. Surely if in The Rings of Power Galadriel's brothers were important to her, which they are as their deaths are shown to be the reason for her desire for revenge, then surely she would have a deeper connection and care for Gil-galad and he would have a deep respect for her. That Gil-galad and Celembrimbor are presented as more senior than Galadriel is very weird.
All the names are there in Rings of power, but none of the important character traits nor acknowledgement of family ties. Tolkien would be rolling in his grave, especially since his grandson is named as a consultant to this show. Can't decide if this disregard of important characters or the ridiculous amount of out of place diversity in every society (apart from the orcs) is worse. It's like trying to say that every society must have an even mix of people of different cultures and skin color for some reason. The only way to make sense of it is to see it as an alternate woke universe Middle Earth and ignore the canon. Something like Shakespeare adapted to modern settings, which I never liked.
My fave part of this video is when we get the scientific explanation of 2nd cousins incest immediately followed by "and also let's not forget THIS ISNT REAL LIFE."
Tolkien's work was largely influenced by European history, particularly that of the British Isles. And there was definitely a lot of incest in those royal families.
Just don't think too much about it. By the time we get to the Third Age, everyone is related to everyone in some way or the other. Sometimes in more than one way. Everyone goes on about Aragorn and Arwen being cousins but forget that Isildur and Anarion's descendants already intermarried to produce Aragorn in the first place. Nor that Arwen's maternal grandparents are themselves second cousins (first cousins according to earlier drafts). Frankly, the less said about them the better.
Its so sad that Findis, Lalwen and Argon got left out of the family tree. To be fair, they didn't do much of note (except being named after a noble gas in Argon's case) but I feel that they deserve to at least get a mention, especially since Lalwen potentially survived into a Second Age (massive achievement for a Finwean).
This is so very interesting. I will probably have to watch it a couple more times just to digest everything. The pictures were nice but the actual generational tree graph is the most helpful. I think more of it would click in my own brain if I had a hard copy of the chart in my hand while you explained all of it. It's a lot but you're right it's quite beautifully wrought.
I love the fact that Dave is adamant in his conviction that Gil-galad is the son of Fingon and hence of Fingolfinian bloodline rather than Finarfinian as suggested in Tolkien's later writings. It makes better sense. That's my head canon now.
@@ghostdreamer7272 Considering how Turgon's High Kingship was practiced only within the bounds of Echoriath, how Ereinion lived in Nargothrond ever since Bragolach (I might be wrong on that), it is possible he hadn't even heard that Fingon died until the fall of Gondolin, when the exiles informed him. This is my reasoning on how Turgon comes before Gil-Galad - he doesn't. He was the king of his domain, Gondolin, where he ruled all along, but cut off from the rest of the world, he wouldn't have made the assumption that there is anybody left with stronger claim.
A better explanation is that Gil-galad has not yet come of age, and in times of war the eldest of the royal line assumes the throne, which is a common practice. You cant have a child king at times like that.
I do appreciate that you left a comment about the use of TROP artwork, and it doesn't take anything away from how wonderful this video is. I just wish you could have used true fan art throughout. It's so beautiful, and deserves much more recognition than the show that will be forgotten.
Finwë's lineage mirrors Biblical Adams with faenor/cain creating the kinda bad seed that dies out while the Fin's/Seth create the offspring destined to see The Creators work through.
I do agree there is a paralell to Cain and Able. But if you actually read the bible, you'll note that Cain has lots of descendents, many of whom are important in bad (but not immediately catastrophic or evil) ways.
Sadly he kept telling everyone to stop doing allegory, especially with his work and especially towards the highly edited Bible. Like. Listen to all of his interviews. There are rare ones on Spotify and RUclips. You just need to know where to look. He keeps getting asked the same questions meanwhile he has to keep on telling them NO. Like can’t people enjoy the fact he created a literature so strong it birthed a hundred different other books and movies in his wake? Saved the lives of many who read his books or them the music made by fans who brought the world to life ? He literally stated he was concerned everyone with each passing generation was losing touch with tradition and knowledge etc, as shown in many letters etc. this man was reviving ancient knowledge of England and other lands. Giving it back to England. He is a folk hero of England for a reason. Many England scholars to this day in OXFORD literally are paid to study him and his works and still barely understanding his work! The man was a genius with languages and linguistics. Heck. Even in several cases they needed an expert linguist to solve a few important things
I wondered how interesting this topic, basically a big family tree, would be in a video but you smashed it. Great work! Fingon is Gil-galad's father in my view but I get why others prefer Orodreth instead.
Same here. I understand the desire to go with "the last thing Tolkien wrote," but to me the whole narrative of Elven history and Gil-galad's individual character are more cohesive if he's Fingon's son. Not to mention, Fingolfin/Fingon/Gil-galad are three of my top five favorite Tolkien characters, and it's much too painful to break them up 😊
@@haleyschreiter9746 Pretty much my thoughts on it too. I like there being a parallel in Fingolfin's fight against Morgoth (also possibly the best moment in the whole larger narrative for me) and his grandson Gil-galad's fight against Sauron thousands of years later.
I think the main reason Tolkien "changed" the parentage of Ereinion Gil-Galad was that he made Turgon the next High King after Fingon's death (by Balrog) and he was wondering why it was that Gil-Galad didn't become High King instead of Turgon, his uncle. I think I can explain that though - these were very turbulent and dangerous times for the Noldor in Middle Earth. Fingon's death coming only a short time (relatively speaking, in Elven terms) after Fingolfin's death would have threatened the very future of the Noldor. Gil-Galad was probably simply too young at this point to take on such a huge responsibility, whereas Turgon was not. He was sent away to live with Cirdan during the final years of Fingolfin's rule and the seige of Angband, for his safekeeping. Since young Elves mature slowly, perhaps he was not yet ready for this. If one goes with the alternative parentage of Gil-Galad, he's the son of Orodreth who also shifted from being Finarfin's son to Angrod's son (and thus Finarfin's grandson). However, while that might explain why Turgon became High King after Fingon, it doesn't explain very well why Gil-Galad would have been the next High King of the Noldor after Turgon. Surely, at this point Idril Turgon's daughter would have become High Queen, or if females couldn't inherit the title then her son Earendil (who was born in Gondolin during Turgon's reign) would have had a claim. But OK, OK, if I am going to be consistent, he was also too young at 7 years of age. Even Galadriel would have have a better claim to be High Queen if Gil-Galad was descended from Finarfin rather than Fingolfin, except for male primogeniture.
@@sweeperboy Good point! Turgon becoming High King after Fingon never felt out of place to me, since he was the eldest male in the line of Fingolfin. It would be far more jarring (at least to me) if the Kingship skipped over to the line of Finarfin, especially at a time when Turgon's daughter and grandson were both still alive.
Thankyou for this big effort. I understand a lot better now the progressions and characters of the stories. I wish some of those drawings could come to life. They are beautiful to behold.
Happy Friday, Rainbow Dave! As my fiancée and I celebrated our 16 year anniversary, we couldn’t think of anything we wanted to do more than watch this video! Thank you so much for all you do. Stay groovy. (Still can’t believe you’ve made a nerd out of my girl!!)
Mazel tov to you both! The love of my life and I made it official on the twelfth anniversary of the day we met and bonded. We're still together, coming up on 60 years together. Best of luck to you both.
I think and have always considered Thingol to be one of my favorite Elves. I haven't begun to sort all the Elves into rankings but Thingol when I first The Silmarillion left a lasting deep impression on me. You can’t shake Thingol, you don't forget him. He is the ghost that lingers. But among all of his many character traits including flaws he was always considered a good leader and lead his own armies. It's very interesting that when you measure everything he's done you can't discredit his value.
Just wanted to say that you are the Omega of Tolkien Geeks bro as one I consider you my Aragorn it's a pleasure to watch and listen to your videos peace
You are so awesome, Rainbow Dave. I was just thinking how much I'd enjoy an Elvish family tree/genealogy kind of video and here you bring this awesomeness. Thank you, sir!
Thank you for the awesome video! Great job as always! But seeing Granmabrimbor was painful. I guess now we are doomed to be constantly surrounded by all that horror created by RoP((( It's so sad.
Galadriel, whilst descended from Finarfin is also royal by her descent from Ingwe, who btw is High king of ALL elves and practically a god; I'd hardly call him a minor character.
@@sweeperboy Fair point. Other than his primordial actions in siring the Vanyar he doesnt do much in 7k years, except once lead the vanyar to battle in middle earth
@@simonfraser6365 Even that is iffy. Pretty sure the Silmarillion said "the people of Ingwe" did battle in M-E during the War of Wrath. But it isn't totally explicit that Ingwe himself ever left Valinor at the head of his army. I could be wrong, but I think so.
@@peteg475 You could be right tbf but either way I think it's implied. I hardly think every character from Finarfin to Manwe himself were required but the Vanyar's own king didn't attend.
7:35 for the Rings of Power audience on how closely related these four Elves are. Though Celembrimbor is portrayed to look much older, he is the grandson of Feanor, (half) brother of Galadriel's father Finarfin, which makes him younger by a generation. Same goes for Gil-Galad, he is the grandson of Fingolfin, who was Feanor's and Finarfin's brother. To contextualise: All three of them were born before the Sun and Moon even existed, in the years of the Trees, making them anywhere between 3500 and 5000 (mortal) years old at this time. Elrond's lineage is quite interesting. He is the son of the blessed Earendil, who was the son of Idril (who is Gil-Galad's granddaughter) and a mortal man named Tuor. On his mother's side, his mother Elwing is the daughter of Dior, whose parents are the famous Beren (a mortal with exceptions) and Lúthien. Lúthien's mother was a maia (lower level angel) called Melian, and his father was Elwe (Elu) Thingol, who was the brother of Galadriel's grandfather, Olwe. Oh, and he later becomes the son-in-law of Galadriel, marrying her daughter Celebrian.
I can’t tell the difference between the black and white names on the list. A few have an extra “glow” but they’re kinda subtle and hard to distinguish on my screen with my eyes.
Ok, I can see it better now upon rewatching - apparently it’s due to both being exactly inverse to one another (white with black outlines vs black with white outlines), so I guess my brain decided they were mathematically the same or something lol
You know there is a channel called Useful Charts that creates family trees, mostly family trees from various royal families around the world. It would be cool if the guy behind the channel made an Elven Royal family tree.
I have been a lover of Tolkien's works & world for decades, but never pieced together how the Elves were related- that was a "tour de force"...thank you!💖
I'm a geologist in real life and I don't know why I think that is relevant but I think it has to do with classifying things and understanding hierarchy. Anyway, genealogy in Tolkien's work is one of my favorite topics. I have often sketched the family trees with notes for the characters and events and such. And its the same for connecting nomenclature for stratigraphic units across state lines which I also recognize is a strange hobby. Anyway, this one is particularly up my alley. Thanks for such great content.
I did the same, with charts and notes while reading the Silmarillion. And my undergrad degree was in geology, and graduate degree in zoology, but with a lot of work in systematics/phylogeny/taxonomy.
Hello Carl! I too am a geologist, and just completed bringing Chapter 3 of my book about Tolkien online...you might be interested. My work is being published online by the Valar Guild, and Chapter 3 is "The Geology of Middle-earth." I would truly appreciate your comments, if you have the time. Thanks! Sandalf13
This was great! I also enjoyed the Harfoots video you just put out. You do a wonderful job of balancing assessing what is in the ROP nonsense with keeping the focus on what Tolkien actually wrote. My husband is a Tolkien fan, but not into the lore as much as some and hasn’t read much beyond LOTR and The Hobbit. Sharing some of your videos with him has really helped catch him up a bit. The genealogies are a difficult subject to undertake and you did the best job I’ve ever heard of making them understandable. One again, you nailed it! Thank you for sharing your expertise and creative skill.
Elves don’t really die like men do in LOTR. Their bodies can, yes, but they’re reembodied by Mandos after a while. Glorfindel died in Gondolin after killing Gothmaug the Balrog, but was sent back to middle earth. The only elves that truly die choose to not be given a new body, like Míriel, or ones who committed acts so heinous they aren’t allowed a new body by Mandos.
Thank you for a wonderful video! I surprised myself with how much I actually remembered about many of these connections. Much of that is thanks to you Untangling the Silmarillion. I've read it several times, but little sticks, sadly. That is, until I came across your channel and watched it from beginning to end twice 😊
I do think it's interesting that Dior was most likely a mortal, seeing as his parents were both mortals and the choice of Half-elves hadn't been given yet, and that he became the King of Doriath. It's kind of interesting to see a mortal, albeit with a pretty hefty ancestry, rule an entire kingdom of immortal Elves.
You did not get it! Dior's mother was an elf - Lúthien Tinúviel (definitely not a mortal), and his father - Beren a mortal man. Dior was not a mortal man but half-elf.
@@atanaszarkov9442 She may not have been born that way, but Lúthien did become mortal after Beren was resurrected, and Dior was conceived after she became mortal. And if I remember correctly, Christopher Tolkien wrote specifically that Dior was a mortal Man.
@@likac92009 He's listed as the first of Elves but mortal or immortal makes little difference in Dior's case, because he was killed at a young age (36) before it would have been an issue.
@@sweeperboy true, he was killed young, but the mere fact he was married with three kids before 36 tells you that he was a mortal. Elves are considered immature at that age and they don't start family that young.
Thank you for these explanations, it was very interesting. Unfortunately, I was lost after 19 min...all these names got mixted together...maybe keep the family tree on the screen throughout the video?
I started reading Tolkien in Junior High study hall. I read them all! Sci-fi was a thing! When years later, The Silmarillion was published I read it & studied the story & made my own maps & lineage charts. THEN I went back to the series & read the books in order including the entire appendix. Even though the story is altered a bit for the small screens & videos, I'm very pleased these back stories to the Lord of the Rings have been blended with the Silmarillion & given a fresh look in the Rings of Power. Many things I've imagined differently however, with an open mind I am able to appreciate the artistic interpretations as a tribute to Tolkien! I'm thankful for the opportunity to visit this favored fantasy Realm once again in the new series Rings of Power.
I knew Elrond lineage had deep roots, after listening to other Chanels I started making connections that seemed to point-in that direction. I’m glad I ran across this breakdown great video!!
Just finished watching Rings of power, The Hobbit trilogy and Lord of the rings trilogy and could not help but to revisit your channel and binge lore for a good few hours! Been fixed to Untangled for most of today! Love the presentation
51:56 of course im still here. Dave do you ever speak on "the new shadow" in any of your vids? everytime we come to the 4th age in one of your videos i wonder, or do you try and stick to whats published and fleshed out cus i could totally understand that.
OMG--what a wonderful job you did on this video! I always love your videos--they help elucidate so much information for me, as I have only read the main trilogy plus The Hobbit--but this is one of your best. So well thought-out; I love your insights on how everything is connected and how everything comes full circle. And you did a lovely job on the narration. Excellent voice-over work. Cheers!
Thank you! It does help make sense of all the genealogies and instead of the families fracturing apart forever after the oath of Feonor, they come back together connecting elves, men, and the angels. I enjoyed that!
Super video, Rainbow Dave! On my first reading of the Silmarillion, I referenced the Elven family trees so often that, by the end, I could draw them out from memory. And I still can 😊 Btw, does anyone know offhand where to find the details of where/when Thranduil was born? I've always wondered but haven't been able to find any concrete answers. Thanks!
This is the first of your videos that I’ve watched, but it’s probably the coolest I’ve ever seen. Tracing the lineages of and connections between so many different characters in a coherent, understandable way is quite an accomplishment. You really did untangle a very complex web. I’m subscribing right now. ❤
Finwe was not High King of the Noldor, he was Noldoran, King of the Noldor. The High Kingship only developed in Beleriand with the division of the Noldor into separate kingships.
(Edit: I now see you’ve actually left your own comment regarding the ROP photos. Here is my original post:) The image shown on the left of my screen at 12:35 is most certainly NOT Cemlibrimbor 😉 Thank you for another excellent video Rainbow Dave. I definitely LOVE all the other artwork shown through out this video. For me, the Amazon series has many beloved elves portrayed so disappointingly that my brain gets irrationally angry whenever I see photos from the series. On a much happier note, I am rewatching some of your videos this afternoon because THEY ARE GREAT 🤘
What really brought home to me that we were not dealing with Tolkien's characters in the Rings of Power was when galadriel stated she "demanded" to see the king. The real Galadriel... I don't think she would demand anything from any other elves of the time. Not only would it be not in her personality, but she just wouldn't need to.
@@crym77 They seriously had to downgrade Galadriel in order to have their narrative of "girlboss ignored by stinky men", and ignore how disregarding the wisdom and honor of your elders is a very, very modern conceit (and I do mean "conceit").
The short haired elves of the Rings of Power vex me greatly. What an assine decision that absolutely is another nail in the coffin of that series. When I see the long flowing elven hair, it looks and feels right,. the short hair is almost painful to see for someone who is a true fan of Tolkien. I remember joyous tears when first I saw Arwen in The Fellowship of the Ring. If some talented FX team went in and added the long hair and made a "fan based edition" it would immediately be massively more popular.
If we watched so long? Please, I can watch Rainbow Daves videos for hours on end! Thanks again for an awesome video! I also wanted to contribute to your question, as I couldn’t do so via direct answering (no idea why, ask my iPad)… I will go along for the Ride with your videos, whatever you decide to present. I think that Lore debunked and second age lore .. with the occasional Elven Royalty videos here and there would be perfect as of now. Hurn isn’t going anywhere and Second age lore related videos just fit so well into these times now, when true fans are longing to see videos made by people who actually read the source material and respect And understand Tolkiens work. And no one does it better than Rainbow Dave, that’s for sure. So please go on, take us with you on your epic journeys throughout Tolkiens world, I’m so excited already 😊🌈
While Maglor in the pre-LotR writings survived (this was adopted into the published Silmarillion), in later writings Maglor perishes by casting himself into the sea: "The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth." Letter 131 "The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea." Concerning... The Hoard Maglor's death is also implied: "The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." LotR "Galad occurs also in the epessë of Ereinion (‘scion of kings') by which he was chiefly remembered in legend, Gil-galad ‘star of radiance’: he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of Finwë except Elrond the Half-elven." Shibboleth of Feanor
@@nostalji93 Apparently it can be glossed as both "of the fountain" and "spear-point," which is a bit funny when you consider his claim to fame is having stabbed Gothmog (Most Terrible of All Balrogs) to death with a pointy bit of his helmet and then drowned in the fountain in which they were fighting thanks to the considerable weight of his foe (and his armor).
@@Amigo21189 Since your answer confused me even more I google again: "In The Book of Lost Tales Part Two Appendix, it is said that the name derives from the Quenya ehtelë ("issue of water, spring"), a reference to his title as Lord for the House of the Fountain. In the etymologies of The Lost Road and Other Writings, his name is composed from ehtë, ("spear") and thela, ("point") (of spear). Put together they would translate as "Spear-point" or "Spear-head". In The War of the Jewels, which seems to be the last matter J.R.R. Tolkien wrote on it, the name is derived from aeg, ("sharp") and thel, ("intent, resolve"). This would translate "one of sharp resolve"." So do people reference him to make a comparisson to his deeds? Like to friend who reminds them of how amazing Ecthelion is? Or am I completely off? Like I said Iam confused xD
@@nostalji93 I haven't the faintest what OP means by using it as an interjection. But yeah, a lot of names get put together from references to some trait or action that makes their owner notable.
Thank you so much for unravelling the relationships! Although I have read almost every of Tolkien's work I have never understood the different lineages. Now I know, and yes, everything makes much more sense.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
If you're frustrated by the Rings of Power artwork...fair enough. My reasoning was simply that a silver lining of the show's existence will be found in bringing new people into contact with Tolkien's work. Perhaps a few of the images will be familiar enough to help a newcomer grasp the overwhelming amount of lore I mentioned, perhaps not. Either way - rest assured - Rings of Power will never be a regular feature of the channel.
I started reading Tolkien because of Peter Jackson. I’m sure middle schoolers watching RoP will want to pick up Tolkien as well. :)
At that, RoP might be even considered a eucatastrophe, lol.
Thank you, I appreciate the reassurance here! Honestly, I avert my eyes when images of the RoP actors come on screen because I don't want those visuals coming to mind when I read about characters whom I love so dearly.
I don't find it particularly bad honestly, as it is an easy reminder of who is who, but I can definitely understand why people wouldn't want to be reminded of the show 😄
The imagery is the only good thing to come out of that show. Nothing wrong with including it in your videos.
@Meatman419 An overreaction like that is just pathetic. You shouldn't have to "think really hard" about whether you'll still listen to somebody just because they _might_ disagree with you about a TV show-which, if you actually read his community posts, you'll realize he's actually on the same side as you but doesn't want to make a big deal about it.
Argon is a noble gas AND a noble elf
and then there is ELMO...
🤣🤣🤣
@@nostalji93
Hail to the mightiest of elves lol
Hahaha.
Too bad he wasn't mentioned.
Dude, if nothing else, I give you a round of applause to the sheer amount of research and effort you put into these videos 👏
I see now why Elrond, despite a half elf is one of the most powerful character in the Third Age. He has Maiar blood in him and both the original high kings. I puzzled myself for years that why is a half elf in the throne of Rivendell.
He's also (In The Rings Of Power) clearly the son of Barney Stinson, so he has certain other powers too
He's, like, related to everyone important, but he humbley calls himself Master, rather than High King of the Noldor.
Arwen's family ladder is indeed impressive
@@erynlasgalen1949That’s an interesting point. Is he technically High King of the Noldor? Who inherited that title after Gil-Galad died at the end of the 2nd Age?
@@willmosse3684 I think Elrond might have been next in line except for the Mannish blood. Or perhaps Celeborn, but everyone seems to have gotten a sudden attack of humility. At least Elrond got his cousin's ring.
I think the biggest thing I got from this video (that I hadn't thought of in those terms before) was how Feanor's line doesn't continue. I'm sure this was very significant for Tolkien, as well as the irony that him having seven sons would have given him a better chance than most of having many descendants. Kind of a self inflicted side effect of the terrible Oath. Great video, thanks Dave!
Also fun how Feanor forged the Silmaril's and made everything go crazy in the First Age, helped by his sons, and then his only grandson (Celebrimbor) was instrumental in forging the rings and helping everything go crazy in the Second and Third ages.
I wished we would have gotten a descendant of Celebrimbror and maybe he would redeem his line. It would be nice
I also found the Feanor aspect fascinating and tend to think of it as the last Embers of the secret fire that were sparked by Iru Aluvitar in the creation of Arda
I don't know, ask Talion and Turambar how good is to have the ire of Morgoth.
While Fëanor in the end brought his doom onto himself, it is the Valar who were devoid of understanding of Melkor that brought about the darkening of Valinor and the Noldor rebellion after Melkor murdered Finwë.
Was the (mis)shaping of Arda and the spoiling of the Spring of Arda not good enough clue how he will never change?
@@marcusgaius But as you said, they didn't understand evil at that time, It was something new to them. They thought Melkor would redeemed himself and change his ways, they didn't anticipate his deceit because deception is something only Melkor and his servants do.
Also, how would you know that a person isn't going to change if you don't give them first the chance?
Obviously it's impossible to know for sure, but I think Tolkien would be very satisfied to see the amount of effort and research you put in to geek out about the elvish family tree and share it with others.
Considering the Professor's apparent passion for family trees in general, I think you're right.
Indeed
I think he was so involved in world creation so people would geek out.
That bit about Galadriel's hair being symbolic of her lineage makes Gimli's request of it that much more significant from a literary perspective. Particularly as Gimli pledged to set in crystal as a "pledge of goodwill between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days." Another of Tolkien's little ways of reminding us that magic lives on past the bittersweet ending of his tale.
(Yes, I know there's also the significance of her thrice denying Fëanor a strand of her hair - but it wouldn't be the first time the Professor doubled down on his symbols.)
I never understood until I had gone deeply into the history the significance of, "She gave me three." Making up for old pride.
It's also kinda like Yavanna and Aulë's creations making peace with one another. Yavanna created the Two Trees of Valinor and their light lives on in Galadriel's hair, which Gimli the dwarf keeps as an heirloom
@erynlasgalen1949 Who's old pride? It wasn't pride that made Galadriel refuse giving Fëanor her hair.
@@erynlasgalen1949she didn't deny Feänor out of pride but out of dislike. Also, Gimli didn't really ask. Galadriel kept insisting on him telling what his heart desires as a parting gift. And Gimi told her but still reiterated that he doesn't ask for anything. His level of humbleness was touching
25:43 Rings of power doesn't do a good job of illustrating that Galadriel is from the previous generation to Celebrimbor and Gilgalad, she comes off as more immature than the other two. It also doesn't help that the actress that plays her appears to be younger than the other two.
Can’t believe I just watched that whole thing. I’ll never not be sad about elves and magic departing from middle earth. But it’s so poetic I cannot be mad
I was listening and had a strange thought. Galadriel is herself the heir to three thrones. Elwing and Earendil are each the heirs to at least two, or the equivalents thereof. Elrond and Elros are actually the first two to have the rights of the kingship of all houses of both Elves and Men. Elrond's daughter ties the house of Finarfin directly back to the main royal line, and her son with Aragon reunites the lineages again with the house of Elros, meaning that the heir to be the next High King was also to all the thrones of Elves and Elf friends.
Galadriel is not the heir to any thrones, as she is female. The Noldor elves practice only MALE primogeniture.
@@finrodfelagundmellonnin
We only have an argument from silence, which is fallacious. We shall never know for certain, because after Gil-Galad none pressed a claim to the high kingship.
@@jayt9608 no its not a question of "argument from silence". We do have enough information to answer the question why no one claimed the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-Galad. The History of Middle earth gives us information about the customs of the Eldar, including their succession practices. Which can be used to glean an answer to the question of why Galadriel or Elrond (or any other Noldorin elf) is not eligible for that kingship.
By the time of Elrond’s daughter’s birth, Finarfin was the only son of Finwë still alive
He still dwelt in Valinor and ruled as King of the Remaining Noldors there
So I’m pretty sure his line was the main Royal line of the time since the direct line of Fingolfin seemingly ended with Gil-Galad
By the time of Elrond’s daughter’s birth, Finarfin was the only son of Finwë still alive
He still dwelt in Valinor and ruled as King of the Remaining Noldors there
So I’m pretty sure his line was the main Royal line of the time since the direct line of Fingolfin seemingly ended with Gil-Galad
Fun fact, Elrond and Celebrian are related in one more way. They are 1st cousins twice removed. Celebrian and Nimloth are first cousins since their fathers are brothers. Nimloth is Elrond's maternal grandmother thus two generations removed from Celebrian in that respect. I'm so stoked that you did a video on this subject. I think it's amazing how despite the fact that Finwe and Elwe would not meet again, their families would become so linked. I guess they had to make up for lost time somehow.
Actually Celebrian is first cousin to one of Elrond's grandmothers and the second cousin to the other. Idril is the granddaughter of Fingolfin while Celebrian is the granddaughter of Finarfin, thus making them second cousins. And of course, Nimloth's dad Galahond is Celeborn's brother, making Celebrian her first cousin.
Celebrian is also related to Elrond's grandfather Dior, through both her parents (who themselves are second cousins). Needless to say, the family tree is a tad bit fucked up.
@@therealelderking5830 THIS is why I'm here!
There's no way these twins could be Elwing's brothers Elúred and Elúrin. During the destruction of Doriath by the sons of Fëanor, aka the second kinslaying, they were children and taken by the servants of Celegorm to die in the forest. If anything, these twin elves would be Elladan and Elrohir, the sons of Elrond.
Worth noting: Since Indis is of the Vanyar royal family (either the daughter of the king of the Vanyar, or his niece), the children of Finarfin are descendants of three high elven royal families, not just the two more prominent ones.
Fingolfin as well, no? Which makes Elrond’s children related to all high elven kings, the race of men, and Maia. Crazy 😂
@@cassandraarknet30 the KINGS of men, specifically
@@Jayinhk1972 the 3 houses of the Edain
That's why Galadriel acting up didn't make that much sense to me in Rings of Power. She should be wiser and far more mature for her absurd age than all the other characters combined. Like, seriously: I can't believe her is an ancient high elf when she acts like a teenager.
Maglor's fate has always intrigued me. Part of me thinks that although it's not explicitly stated, he dies with the drowning of Beleriand, but because this isn't stated, it could imply that he's still wandering Middle-earth throughout the second and third ages (and beyond). The former feels like a more fitting end, but if the latter is the case, then I have to wonder where Maglor is and what he's doing (aside from lamenting). Daeron of Doriath actually has a similar fate, so maybe there's a tragic great minstrel theme here.
I like to think that Maglor some how ran into Aldarion while he was exploring middle earth. They maybe talked and Maglor was hiding his identity because he didn't want to talk about how he almost killed Aldarions great great great great grandmother and stole away the Silmiill that ended up in the sky lol
I think Maglor stayed in the shadows and never interfered in any of the events of the next ages, accepting his punishment of loneliness and having to live with everything he did. This may be stupid but I headcanon he finally found redemption in the Fourth Age by pulling a Boo Radley and saving one of Aragorn and Arwen’s children from an Easterling during the years of Aragorn and Éomer cleaning up the remainder of Sauron’s evil in the East - perhaps the child out of curiosity wandered into dangerous territory and was ambushed, then Maglor heard screams and came to the rescue. Then when he took the child home he did not identify himself but was shocked and moved to recognize Elrond and Elros’ faces in Aragorn and Arwen’s.
Wouldn't an audiobook of, well everything Tolkien, narrated by Dave be just the BEST thing ever? The richness of his voice and the passion with which he speaks of these stories is fabulous!
I agree
Absolutely!!! 👍
Omg yes. Yes. Yes. This. I would absolutely pay for that. He reads everything with such passion. Just the way he reads from the texts puts him head and shoulders above other channels nvm all his research. The vast knowledge of the cannon etc etc.
Stephen Fry did a pretty good job
Just the juxtaposition of the fan art Celebrimbor vs the Amazon version is telling. The Amazon one is jarringly normal. Anyways, good work Dave.
Abso-Tolkien-lutely! ;)
*Shows Sesame Street’s Elmo when Elmo is mentioned*
*Doesn’t show Dior-brand perfume when Dior is mentioned*
Wonderful Video, One thing you didn't mention is that Elwe is usually known by another name, Thingol, just in case people were confused.
This is so good! I can't wait for the Children of Húrin getting the untangled-treatment. I know already it will be such an epic series!
Yeah. Remember Lalaith??? 😔
Me neither, can't wait for this!! 😁
After having read The Silarillion several times, I was aware of the relationships and that Eldarion represents every principal group that was opposed to Morgoth. Well done on laying it all out but it also pretty much sums up why I can't watch The Second Age. I watched the first two episodes and there is absolutely no way Elrond or even Celebrimbor would have shown such disrespect toward Galadriel. I could have let a lot of it go, including Galadriel attempting to sail back to Valinor before the ban of the Valar was lifted from her but no way could I tolerate both of much more youthful cousins talking down to her like they did in the program. The Second Age was only lightly touched upon so there was a lot of room to create storylines but that was a bridge too far for me.
these were my initial thoughts but if you think about it:
- Gil-galad was high king, IIRC in the books in the first/second age up to the show's storytime Galadriel was just a noble that married another noble in the meantime and didn't do anything substantial just as any other female character (except Luthien and Elwing). she had no authority she had later in Lothlorien
- if you live thousands of years with no change in appearance does it mean anything if someone is older or not really
- in the LOTR both Elrond and Galadriel were clearly aware Ganndalf is a maiar and that doesn't stop them from talking to him as equeal so your birthright isn't everything
I'm not saying I disagree with you but there can be made some fair counterarguments
"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling elves!" Melkor
Thirty odd years ago I stuck together multiple sheets of A4 and mapped out all of the family trees and how they intertwined. It took me a few nights to complete but it was so worth it. I remember the awe i felt at the end when it dawned on me the family connection between Arwen and Aragorn. It helped me to understand why Elrond was only happy (perhaps the wrong word) for Arwen to marry the High King of Gondor and Arnor. A mere Ranger was never going to be of high enough rank for a daughter of such a celebrated lineage. ❤❤❤
Do you happen to have a copy of it? I would love to see
The only reason Elrond didn't want the union was because his beloved daughter would make the choice of mortality to be with her husband. There was no snootiness involved. Elrod would face the same grief that Thingol did. He'd lose a child to the real mortal death.
I decided to map it out in an excel spreadsheet
@@Aesuuki I don't sorry. I've moved so many times that I have no clue as to what happened to it.
@@dominique.400 That's cool. I'd really like to see it.
In Rings of Power, they couldn't decide who Gil-Galad's father is, so they wrote him as a total bastard.
haha! boom boom! 😂
Uhhhhh 😂😂😂
THAT, my friend, was an excellent one!
Maybe the creators of the show should have read the books first 🤣
@@diode86 They did but didn't have the rights
Man. Rings of power makes me sad
I always likened Muriel’s choosing to die to one hell of a case of postpartum depression. And it really wasn’t understood back then as well as it is now.
Perhaps she had the gift of foresight and wanted nothing to do with what was coming would you blame her?
@@berts558 Before she died she even said she wasn’t to blame for anything that was to happen 🤷
Yeah, she probably had some sort of profetic revelation, or forsight
Yes, but the text seems to imply that Miriel - at least to some extent - chose to put so much energy into Feanor almost causing her 'depression'. Also her choice deprived Feanor of motherly love perhaps contributing to his turning into villain later on.
Miriel, not Muriel*
Such an incredible amount of information and yet you made it all come together! Excellently done
Everybody is bickering about an abysmal cash grab of a show and whether it is quality or not; and Rainbow Dave is just here doing the Lord’s work, eloquently and enthusiastically explaining the Family Royalty of the Eldar. Good on you Rainbow Dave!
Thanks!
😘
Or is he doing....the "lore's" work?
But it is abysmal though...
@@rewild6134 exactly, but Rainbow Dave doesn’t dwell upon that fact, he just moves on to the Professor’s work. Nothing more, nothing less.
Elwe's explanation for disappearing for a few hundred years from his Teleri people:
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Teleri follower: Distracted by otherworldly beauty?
AttackED ships on fire...
LOL. I have surmised that he and Melian didn't spend all that time STANDING and staring into each other's eyes.
@@BLexlNice BladeCenter reference.
Ingwe is actually not just the high king of the Vanyar, but also the high king of ALL elves. Also, Galadriel, her brothers and her full uncle's side were not at Alqualonde with Feanor and his group. They ended up going a different way where her father ended up deciding to stay on Valinor and the rest went east. That was why they were ever allowed to return to Valinor and never branded as kinslayers.
Best channel on RUclips for Tolkien. Thank you very much!
It's a shame there aren't more likes, this video deserves them
The more detailed and knowledgeable a Tolkien channel is, the less views it gets for some reason. Who knows. RD and Red Book are the best imo
@@MikeTheD i meant that i wanted to be able to like multiple times! A superlative like if you will.
This shows how The Rings of Power doesn't make sense of the relationships between the Elves and how they treat one another. Firstly, Gil-galad is one of the few living relatives Galadriel has left and she is many respects more senior. In the newer line where Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, who is the son of Angrod, Galadriels brother. Orodreth is Galadriel's only nephew and surely would be dear to her after the death of all of her brothers. After Orodreth's death then Gil-Galad and his sister Finduilas were the only surviving descendants of her brothers until Finduilas dies, leaving Gil-galad and Galadriel as the only surviving members of Finarfins house, outside of Finarfin himself who still lived in Valinor. Surely if in The Rings of Power Galadriel's brothers were important to her, which they are as their deaths are shown to be the reason for her desire for revenge, then surely she would have a deeper connection and care for Gil-galad and he would have a deep respect for her. That Gil-galad and Celembrimbor are presented as more senior than Galadriel is very weird.
All the names are there in Rings of power, but none of the important character traits nor acknowledgement of family ties. Tolkien would be rolling in his grave, especially since his grandson is named as a consultant to this show.
Can't decide if this disregard of important characters or the ridiculous amount of out of place diversity in every society (apart from the orcs) is worse. It's like trying to say that every society must have an even mix of people of different cultures and skin color for some reason.
The only way to make sense of it is to see it as an alternate woke universe Middle Earth and ignore the canon. Something like Shakespeare adapted to modern settings, which I never liked.
My fave part of this video is when we get the scientific explanation of 2nd cousins incest immediately followed by "and also let's not forget THIS ISNT REAL LIFE."
2nd cousins marrying might be considered incest in some places, but in Sweden we're allowed to marry cousins. My grandfather's parents were cousins.
It's not as taboo as first cousins or any other family members
It’s a different species altogether
Tolkien's work was largely influenced by European history, particularly that of the British Isles. And there was definitely a lot of incest in those royal families.
Just don't think too much about it.
By the time we get to the Third Age, everyone is related to everyone in some way or the other. Sometimes in more than one way.
Everyone goes on about Aragorn and Arwen being cousins but forget that Isildur and Anarion's descendants already intermarried to produce Aragorn in the first place. Nor that Arwen's maternal grandparents are themselves second cousins (first cousins according to earlier drafts).
Frankly, the less said about them the better.
Its so sad that Findis, Lalwen and Argon got left out of the family tree. To be fair, they didn't do much of note (except being named after a noble gas in Argon's case) but I feel that they deserve to at least get a mention, especially since Lalwen potentially survived into a Second Age (massive achievement for a Finwean).
You are amazing. I've been searching for a video like this, like for what...a decade? You have created one of the best videos about this world ever.
I want to see an episode of *Finding your Roots* with Elrond learning about the history of family going all the way back to his great ancestor Finwë 😂
This is so very interesting. I will probably have to watch it a couple more times just to digest everything. The pictures were nice but the actual generational tree graph is the most helpful. I think more of it would click in my own brain if I had a hard copy of the chart in my hand while you explained all of it. It's a lot but you're right it's quite beautifully wrought.
I love the fact that Dave is adamant in his conviction that Gil-galad is the son of Fingon and hence of Fingolfinian bloodline rather than Finarfinian as suggested in Tolkien's later writings. It makes better sense. That's my head canon now.
I think Tolkien’s reasoning was if Gil-galas was son of Fingon, then the kingship should never have gone to Turgon (his brother) over his son.
@@ghostdreamer7272 Considering how Turgon's High Kingship was practiced only within the bounds of Echoriath, how Ereinion lived in Nargothrond ever since Bragolach (I might be wrong on that), it is possible he hadn't even heard that Fingon died until the fall of Gondolin, when the exiles informed him.
This is my reasoning on how Turgon comes before Gil-Galad - he doesn't. He was the king of his domain, Gondolin, where he ruled all along, but cut off from the rest of the world, he wouldn't have made the assumption that there is anybody left with stronger claim.
A better explanation is that Gil-galad has not yet come of age, and in times of war the eldest of the royal line assumes the throne, which is a common practice. You cant have a child king at times like that.
I do appreciate that you left a comment about the use of TROP artwork, and it doesn't take anything away from how wonderful this video is. I just wish you could have used true fan art throughout. It's so beautiful, and deserves much more recognition than the show that will be forgotten.
Finwë's lineage mirrors Biblical Adams with faenor/cain creating the kinda bad seed that dies out while the Fin's/Seth create the offspring destined to see The Creators work through.
I do agree there is a paralell to Cain and Able. But if you actually read the bible, you'll note that Cain has lots of descendents, many of whom are important in bad (but not immediately catastrophic or evil) ways.
Sadly he kept telling everyone to stop doing allegory, especially with his work and especially towards the highly edited Bible. Like. Listen to all of his interviews. There are rare ones on Spotify and RUclips. You just need to know where to look. He keeps getting asked the same questions meanwhile he has to keep on telling them NO. Like can’t people enjoy the fact he created a literature so strong it birthed a hundred different other books and movies in his wake? Saved the lives of many who read his books or them the music made by fans who brought the world to life ? He literally stated he was concerned everyone with each passing generation was losing touch with tradition and knowledge etc, as shown in many letters etc. this man was reviving ancient knowledge of England and other lands. Giving it back to England. He is a folk hero of England for a reason. Many England scholars to this day in OXFORD literally are paid to study him and his works and still barely understanding his work! The man was a genius with languages and linguistics. Heck. Even in several cases they needed an expert linguist to solve a few important things
I wondered how interesting this topic, basically a big family tree, would be in a video but you smashed it. Great work! Fingon is Gil-galad's father in my view but I get why others prefer Orodreth instead.
Same here. I understand the desire to go with "the last thing Tolkien wrote," but to me the whole narrative of Elven history and Gil-galad's individual character are more cohesive if he's Fingon's son. Not to mention, Fingolfin/Fingon/Gil-galad are three of my top five favorite Tolkien characters, and it's much too painful to break them up 😊
@@haleyschreiter9746 Pretty much my thoughts on it too. I like there being a parallel in Fingolfin's fight against Morgoth (also possibly the best moment in the whole larger narrative for me) and his grandson Gil-galad's fight against Sauron thousands of years later.
I think the main reason Tolkien "changed" the parentage of Ereinion Gil-Galad was that he made Turgon the next High King after Fingon's death (by Balrog) and he was wondering why it was that Gil-Galad didn't become High King instead of Turgon, his uncle. I think I can explain that though - these were very turbulent and dangerous times for the Noldor in Middle Earth. Fingon's death coming only a short time (relatively speaking, in Elven terms) after Fingolfin's death would have threatened the very future of the Noldor. Gil-Galad was probably simply too young at this point to take on such a huge responsibility, whereas Turgon was not. He was sent away to live with Cirdan during the final years of Fingolfin's rule and the seige of Angband, for his safekeeping. Since young Elves mature slowly, perhaps he was not yet ready for this.
If one goes with the alternative parentage of Gil-Galad, he's the son of Orodreth who also shifted from being Finarfin's son to Angrod's son (and thus Finarfin's grandson). However, while that might explain why Turgon became High King after Fingon, it doesn't explain very well why Gil-Galad would have been the next High King of the Noldor after Turgon. Surely, at this point Idril Turgon's daughter would have become High Queen, or if females couldn't inherit the title then her son Earendil (who was born in Gondolin during Turgon's reign) would have had a claim. But OK, OK, if I am going to be consistent, he was also too young at 7 years of age. Even Galadriel would have have a better claim to be High Queen if Gil-Galad was descended from Finarfin rather than Fingolfin, except for male primogeniture.
@@sweeperboy Good point! Turgon becoming High King after Fingon never felt out of place to me, since he was the eldest male in the line of Fingolfin. It would be far more jarring (at least to me) if the Kingship skipped over to the line of Finarfin, especially at a time when Turgon's daughter and grandson were both still alive.
Thankyou for this big effort. I understand a lot better now the progressions and characters of the stories. I wish some of those drawings could come to life. They are beautiful to behold.
Thank you for the video!! I believe Turgon was accidentally missed from the list of elves at the beginning of the video
Yeah, you're right, he was
Happy Friday, Rainbow Dave! As my fiancée and I celebrated our 16 year anniversary, we couldn’t think of anything we wanted to do more than watch this video! Thank you so much for all you do.
Stay groovy.
(Still can’t believe you’ve made a nerd out of my girl!!)
Awesome! Happy anniversary to you both! I'm really glad you enjoy the channel.
Mazel tov to you both! The love of my life and I made it official on the twelfth anniversary of the day we met and bonded. We're still together, coming up on 60 years together. Best of luck to you both.
His father would make Celibrimbor more susceptible to sociopathic abuse and gaslighting. Poor guy.
Thank you for putting the time in for this one 👏
I think and have always considered Thingol to be one of my favorite Elves. I haven't begun to sort all the Elves into rankings but Thingol when I first The Silmarillion left a lasting deep impression on me. You can’t shake Thingol, you don't forget him.
He is the ghost that lingers. But among all of his many character traits including flaws he was always considered a good leader and lead his own armies. It's very interesting that when you measure everything he's done you can't discredit his value.
110%
Just wanted to say that you are the Omega of Tolkien Geeks bro as one I consider you my Aragorn it's a pleasure to watch and listen to your videos peace
I never knew Elmo had such noble ancestry.
You are so awesome, Rainbow Dave. I was just thinking how much I'd enjoy an Elvish family tree/genealogy kind of video and here you bring this awesomeness. Thank you, sir!
Thank you for the awesome video! Great job as always!
But seeing Granmabrimbor was painful. I guess now we are doomed to be constantly surrounded by all that horror created by RoP((( It's so sad.
Galadriel, whilst descended from Finarfin is also royal by her descent from Ingwe, who btw is High king of ALL elves and practically a god; I'd hardly call him a minor character.
I think he was a minor character _in the story_ despite being a big deal in the Calaquendi Elves.
@@sweeperboy Fair point. Other than his primordial actions in siring the Vanyar he doesnt do much in 7k years, except once lead the vanyar to battle in middle earth
@@simonfraser6365 Even that is iffy. Pretty sure the Silmarillion said "the people of Ingwe" did battle in M-E during the War of Wrath. But it isn't totally explicit that Ingwe himself ever left Valinor at the head of his army. I could be wrong, but I think so.
@@peteg475 You could be right tbf but either way I think it's implied. I hardly think every character from Finarfin to Manwe himself were required but the Vanyar's own king didn't attend.
Yeah, that's why Galadriel is actually the descendant to 3 Royal Houses: Vanyar through Indis, Noldor through Finwe, Teleri/Falmari through Earwen
7:35 for the Rings of Power audience on how closely related these four Elves are. Though Celembrimbor is portrayed to look much older, he is the grandson of Feanor, (half) brother of Galadriel's father Finarfin, which makes him younger by a generation. Same goes for Gil-Galad, he is the grandson of Fingolfin, who was Feanor's and Finarfin's brother. To contextualise: All three of them were born before the Sun and Moon even existed, in the years of the Trees, making them anywhere between 3500 and 5000 (mortal) years old at this time. Elrond's lineage is quite interesting. He is the son of the blessed Earendil, who was the son of Idril (who is Gil-Galad's granddaughter) and a mortal man named Tuor. On his mother's side, his mother Elwing is the daughter of Dior, whose parents are the famous Beren (a mortal with exceptions) and Lúthien. Lúthien's mother was a maia (lower level angel) called Melian, and his father was Elwe (Elu) Thingol, who was the brother of Galadriel's grandfather, Olwe. Oh, and he later becomes the son-in-law of Galadriel, marrying her daughter Celebrian.
I can’t tell the difference between the black and white names on the list. A few have an extra “glow” but they’re kinda subtle and hard to distinguish on my screen with my eyes.
Ok, I can see it better now upon rewatching - apparently it’s due to both being exactly inverse to one another (white with black outlines vs black with white outlines), so I guess my brain decided they were mathematically the same or something lol
Such an incredible video. Thanks you so much for compiling and breaking it down in such an entertaining way.
You know there is a channel called Useful Charts that creates family trees, mostly family trees from various royal families around the world. It would be cool if the guy behind the channel made an Elven Royal family tree.
I like some of his stuff too.
I have been a lover of Tolkien's works & world for decades, but never pieced together how the Elves were related- that was a "tour de force"...thank you!💖
I'm a geologist in real life and I don't know why I think that is relevant but I think it has to do with classifying things and understanding hierarchy. Anyway, genealogy in Tolkien's work is one of my favorite topics. I have often sketched the family trees with notes for the characters and events and such. And its the same for connecting nomenclature for stratigraphic units across state lines which I also recognize is a strange hobby. Anyway, this one is particularly up my alley. Thanks for such great content.
I did the same, with charts and notes while reading the Silmarillion. And my undergrad degree was in geology, and graduate degree in zoology, but with a lot of work in systematics/phylogeny/taxonomy.
You get it! I didn’t do any paleontology other than intro courses but the labs were mostly sketching which I actually didn’t mind.
Hello Carl! I too am a geologist, and just completed bringing Chapter 3 of my book about Tolkien online...you might be interested. My work is being published online by the Valar Guild, and Chapter 3 is "The Geology of Middle-earth." I would truly appreciate your comments, if you have the time. Thanks! Sandalf13
Best Tolkien channel on RUclips!
That was really great the way you laid it out. Thank you!
This was great! I also enjoyed the Harfoots video you just put out. You do a wonderful job of balancing assessing what is in the ROP nonsense with keeping the focus on what Tolkien actually wrote. My husband is a Tolkien fan, but not into the lore as much as some and hasn’t read much beyond LOTR and The Hobbit. Sharing some of your videos with him has really helped catch him up a bit.
The genealogies are a difficult subject to undertake and you did the best job I’ve ever heard of making them understandable.
One again, you nailed it! Thank you for sharing your expertise and creative skill.
What a great untangling of some very complicated genealogy! Great work!
Elves don’t really die like men do in LOTR. Their bodies can, yes, but they’re reembodied by Mandos after a while. Glorfindel died in Gondolin after killing Gothmaug the Balrog, but was sent back to middle earth. The only elves that truly die choose to not be given a new body, like Míriel, or ones who committed acts so heinous they aren’t allowed a new body by Mandos.
Thank you for a wonderful video! I surprised myself with how much I actually remembered about many of these connections. Much of that is thanks to you Untangling the Silmarillion. I've read it several times, but little sticks, sadly. That is, until I came across your channel and watched it from beginning to end twice 😊
You're the best, Rainbow Dave!!! Always love learning about all of the nuances you untangle!!
I do think it's interesting that Dior was most likely a mortal, seeing as his parents were both mortals and the choice of Half-elves hadn't been given yet, and that he became the King of Doriath. It's kind of interesting to see a mortal, albeit with a pretty hefty ancestry, rule an entire kingdom of immortal Elves.
You did not get it! Dior's mother was an elf - Lúthien Tinúviel (definitely not a mortal), and his father - Beren a mortal man. Dior was not a mortal man but half-elf.
@@atanaszarkov9442 She may not have been born that way, but Lúthien did become mortal after Beren was resurrected, and Dior was conceived after she became mortal. And if I remember correctly, Christopher Tolkien wrote specifically that Dior was a mortal Man.
@@atanaszarkov9442 Half-elves are mortals by default, unless they were given a choice by Manwe. Dior was born and lived like a mortal man.
@@likac92009 He's listed as the first of Elves but mortal or immortal makes little difference in Dior's case, because he was killed at a young age (36) before it would have been an issue.
@@sweeperboy true, he was killed young, but the mere fact he was married with three kids before 36 tells you that he was a mortal. Elves are considered immature at that age and they don't start family that young.
Thank you for these explanations, it was very interesting. Unfortunately, I was lost after 19 min...all these names got mixted together...maybe keep the family tree on the screen throughout the video?
Great video as always my friend
Subscribed! The way your narration makes things more interesting is a talent.
Thanks very much!
I love it when you upload Mellon Dave.
You know your in for something good 👍
I started reading Tolkien in Junior High study hall. I read them all! Sci-fi was a thing!
When years later, The Silmarillion was published I read it & studied the story & made my own maps & lineage charts.
THEN I went back to the series & read the books in order including the entire appendix.
Even though the story is altered a bit for the small screens & videos, I'm very pleased these back stories to the Lord of the Rings have been blended with the Silmarillion & given a fresh look in the Rings of Power.
Many things I've imagined differently however, with an open mind I am able to appreciate the artistic interpretations as a tribute to Tolkien!
I'm thankful for the opportunity to visit this favored fantasy Realm once again in the new series Rings of Power.
I knew Elrond lineage had deep roots, after listening to other Chanels I started making connections that seemed to point-in that direction. I’m glad I ran across this breakdown great video!!
The artistic drawing of the characters are amazing!
Just finished watching Rings of power, The Hobbit trilogy and Lord of the rings trilogy and could not help but to revisit your channel and binge lore for a good few hours! Been fixed to Untangled for most of today! Love the presentation
I was literally moved to tears by your explanation. Bravo!
That granny dress on celebrimbor ..... Amazon, why! 😩
What about the lined and aged face, the stuck-on ears? (kind of reminiscent of Star Trek alien species)
OMgggggggg you almost made me spit out my food 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@MrAwesomeleon 😅🤣😅
51:56 of course im still here. Dave do you ever speak on "the new shadow" in any of your vids? everytime we come to the 4th age in one of your videos i wonder, or do you try and stick to whats published and fleshed out cus i could totally understand that.
Beautifully done my good sir!
Elrond, son of Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien. I just love how poetic that is.
Thank you for another wonderful video. I found it quite fascinating. It was unexpected but very welcome video
OMG--what a wonderful job you did on this video! I always love your videos--they help elucidate so much information for me, as I have only read the main trilogy plus The Hobbit--but this is one of your best. So well thought-out; I love your insights on how everything is connected and how everything comes full circle. And you did a lovely job on the narration. Excellent voice-over work. Cheers!
Thank you very much! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
This is such excellent information! Fantastic research and amazing presentation!! I love this channel!
Thank you! It does help make sense of all the genealogies and instead of the families fracturing apart forever after the oath of Feonor, they come back together connecting elves, men, and the angels. I enjoyed that!
Super video, Rainbow Dave! On my first reading of the Silmarillion, I referenced the Elven family trees so often that, by the end, I could draw them out from memory. And I still can 😊
Btw, does anyone know offhand where to find the details of where/when Thranduil was born? I've always wondered but haven't been able to find any concrete answers. Thanks!
There's more info on Thranduil in Unfinished Tales.
@@TRivan-kx2bi Thanks! I actually just reread it 🙂 Great stuff, but I couldn't find an exact answer, sadly...
@@haleyschreiter9746 It's in a section called Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves.
What a great video! Thank you 😊😊
17:08 I know everyone sees Elrond's name down there but Elros is pretty much of crazy importance too.
This is the first of your videos that I’ve watched, but it’s probably the coolest I’ve ever seen. Tracing the lineages of and connections between so many different characters in a coherent, understandable way is quite an accomplishment. You really did untangle a very complex web. I’m subscribing right now. ❤
What a ghastly thing to need a picture of an RoP actorrr to represent Celebrimbor.
Finwe was not High King of the Noldor, he was Noldoran, King of the Noldor. The High Kingship only developed in Beleriand with the division of the Noldor into separate kingships.
Fantastic vid! I was just looking into elven names and finally i understand this royal family drama from Tolkien. Thank you, great work!
(Edit: I now see you’ve actually left your own comment regarding the ROP photos. Here is my original post:) The image shown on the left of my screen at 12:35 is most certainly NOT Cemlibrimbor 😉 Thank you for another excellent video Rainbow Dave. I definitely LOVE all the other artwork shown through out this video. For me, the Amazon series has many beloved elves portrayed so disappointingly that my brain gets irrationally angry whenever I see photos from the series. On a much happier note, I am rewatching some of your videos this afternoon because THEY ARE GREAT 🤘
Enjoyed this a lot. Small pat on the back for myself for actually following along with all the names and connections. Great stuff as always 😄
It must have been weird for Galadriel to bow down to Gil-Galad, considering he was so much younger than her.
What really brought home to me that we were not dealing with Tolkien's characters in the Rings of Power was when galadriel stated she "demanded" to see the king. The real Galadriel... I don't think she would demand anything from any other elves of the time. Not only would it be not in her personality, but she just wouldn't need to.
@@crym77 They seriously had to downgrade Galadriel in order to have their narrative of "girlboss ignored by stinky men", and ignore how disregarding the wisdom and honor of your elders is a very, very modern conceit (and I do mean "conceit").
The short haired elves of the Rings of Power vex me greatly. What an assine decision that absolutely is another nail in the coffin of that series. When I see the long flowing elven hair, it looks and feels right,. the short hair is almost painful to see for someone who is a true fan of Tolkien. I remember joyous tears when first I saw Arwen in The Fellowship of the Ring. If some talented FX team went in and added the long hair and made a "fan based edition" it would immediately be massively more popular.
If we watched so long? Please, I can watch Rainbow Daves videos for hours on end! Thanks again for an awesome video! I also wanted to contribute to your question, as I couldn’t do so via direct answering (no idea why, ask my iPad)… I will go along for the Ride with your videos, whatever you decide to present. I think that Lore debunked and second age lore .. with the occasional Elven Royalty videos here and there would be perfect as of now. Hurn isn’t going anywhere and Second age lore related videos just fit so well into these times now, when true fans are longing to see videos made by people who actually read the source material and respect And understand Tolkiens work. And no one does it better than Rainbow Dave, that’s for sure. So please go on, take us with you on your epic journeys throughout Tolkiens world, I’m so excited already 😊🌈
Thank you! Very much appreciated.
That was one hour of joy
I know all that, but puting all that together is amazing
Thank u alot
Amazing video, about a great extended family - thank you!
This may be my favorite video you’ve ever put out. Excellent work!
While Maglor in the pre-LotR writings survived (this was adopted into the published Silmarillion), in later writings Maglor perishes by casting himself into the sea:
"The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth."
Letter 131
"The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea."
Concerning... The Hoard
Maglor's death is also implied:
"The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants."
LotR
"Galad occurs also in the epessë of Ereinion (‘scion of kings') by which he was chiefly remembered in legend, Gil-galad ‘star of radiance’: he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of Finwë except Elrond the Half-elven."
Shibboleth of Feanor
I'm so excited for your Gil-galad video. He my favorite from Tolkien
Well met RD. We're all royalty in the eyes of Illuvatar. Keep up the great work Mellon! ECTHELION!!
Mellon = friend, but Ecthelion is the name of a pretty elf, isnt it? What is it supposed to mean?
@@nostalji93 Apparently it can be glossed as both "of the fountain" and "spear-point," which is a bit funny when you consider his claim to fame is having stabbed Gothmog (Most Terrible of All Balrogs) to death with a pointy bit of his helmet and then drowned in the fountain in which they were fighting thanks to the considerable weight of his foe (and his armor).
@@Amigo21189 Since your answer confused me even more I google again:
"In The Book of Lost Tales Part Two Appendix, it is said that the name derives from the Quenya ehtelë ("issue of water, spring"), a reference to his title as Lord for the House of the Fountain.
In the etymologies of The Lost Road and Other Writings, his name is composed from ehtë, ("spear") and thela, ("point") (of spear). Put together they would translate as "Spear-point" or "Spear-head".
In The War of the Jewels, which seems to be the last matter J.R.R. Tolkien wrote on it, the name is derived from aeg, ("sharp") and thel, ("intent, resolve"). This would translate "one of sharp resolve"."
So do people reference him to make a comparisson to his deeds? Like to friend who reminds them of how amazing Ecthelion is? Or am I completely off? Like I said Iam confused xD
@@nostalji93 I haven't the faintest what OP means by using it as an interjection. But yeah, a lot of names get put together from references to some trait or action that makes their owner notable.
Thank you so much for unravelling the relationships! Although I have read almost every of Tolkien's work I have never understood the different lineages. Now I know, and yes, everything makes much more sense.