The Blue Wizards - That's what Amazon should have done: So much freedom to create new stories and even contradictory source stories leaving them a lot of wiggle room by not locking them down to a single predetermined ending. Yes, it all eventually leads to the war of the ring but the Blue Wizards arrival, interactions with Sauron & Suraman, influences on the people, and even their final allegiances and resulting fates could be debated. Maybe even much more appealing to Amazon, the nature of the "races" in that part of Middle Earth aren't super well defined - unlike in the West.
“So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” That Gandalf quote really helped me through some tough times. The Istari are so intriguing. Great video Rainbow Dave!
It's just so applicable to life in general. Even the small things like cook a healthy dinner or get some fast food and booze, do homework or play videogames, get some exercise or watch a movie etc. Frodo didn't hesitate to do the prudent thing once he realised that it would put everyone in mortal danger of he didn't which really puts things in perspective. I love it
Its certainly a good quote for the times we live in, at least in the USA, seeing how we elected a government that pushed for a war in Ukraine, and is now pushing for a war in Taiwan, all while bankrupting us by refusing to drill for oi, and who's answer to any problem is "give the government more taxpayer money" But, unlike in fantasy, us Hobbits are too little to do much about any of it in reality.
I always thought that Gandalf inherited The White from Saruman when he was sent back to Middle-Earth, and the figure in Fangorn forest was Gandalf, but still in something of a daze after being reborn. I don't have the book handy, but I seem to recall Gandalf was watching Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli because he was slowly regaining his memories, and he couldn't be sure at first that it was them. Tolkien also has Gandalf answer a question with a question quite often in LotR. I think Gandalf is essentially a teacher, and so when people ask him a question, rather than answer it directly he has them think about what the answer could be. So, when he is asked if it is he wandering the forest, his reply is more along the lines of "Well, who else do you think it could be?" and the three companions already were speculating that it was Saruman.
I think Saruman is a really important figure because he's aligned with Sauron but also working for his own interests and has his own campaigns. It's like evil leaders can't help but not cooperate. He makes the books more interesting because he's not just a loyal lieutenant to Sauron. He's also not invincible or always right. He overextends and ends up mobilizing the complacent Ents. Christopher Lee really did a great job at someone clever and powerful but also flawed and doomed.
I think it's also interesting because Sauron and Saurumon were Maiar under Aule, the craftsman god. There's something to be said about how wanting to take and warp the world to your imagination is less good aligned than bad. It's not inherently bad, as we see with Aule and the Dwarves, but it can very quickly spin off into being control hungry. They start to try changing the world around them because it's what they do as smiths. They work well together as fellow apprentices, but that same apprenticeship keeps them competitive rather than cooperative. Because I 100% agree, Saurumon was working against Sauron by trying to craft and raise his own army. P.S. Melkor was cursed with knowledge and it's his desire to create that turns him evil. It's just a bad way to approach life, I guess. Sorry blacksmiths.
Saruman was not actually natrually aligned with Sauron; its true to say he worked with Sauron, but I think he though eventually he would gain the upper hand and then the one ring and destroy it that way. Saruman I think was working for "good" but in roundabout ways.
@@handgun559 Tolkien grew up under the the industrialization era. He had philosophical doubts towards the efficacy of it. To be fair, there is an actual Valar in heaven dedicated to the glorfied purpose of those things. It is the failure of his servants, not his aspect. Melkor is described as the most gifted by Eru but it would be foolish to describe Eru as an extention of Melkor's flaws.
@@CalridRobnor123srs Saruman worked solely for his own good. He betrayed both the free peoples and Sauron. He wanted to order middle earth according to his will just as Sauron wanted to.
The five Maiar chosen for the task actually make a lot of sense. Curumo is there to give technology and industry to men, so that they could match Sauron's forces, who received the same kind of guidance from him. Alatar was sent for his expertise when it came to slaying the various monsters Sauron was breeding. Olorin was sent to serve as an advisor for men, who would help everyone without prejudice. Aiwendil was sent specifically to serve as a counter-balance for Curumo, making sure the industry he'd promote wouldn't end up hurting nature too much. Pallando was sent as another monster hunter, but more focused on the wraiths and undead Sauron created. This lineup makes perfect sense, but then the depowering messed things up. Curumo became so enamored with his work, he turned arrogant, which led to his corruption through the pallantir, and he ended up creating his own industrialized power-base. Aiwendil was so focused on nature he became a recluse in the woods, and failed to serve as a balancing force for Curumo, completely unaware of the destruction the latter was causing. Alatar and Pallando became so absorbed into hunting monsters and wraiths that they went east to look for prey, leaving the west defenseless against Sauron's war-trolls, fellbeasts, and the Nazgul. The only one who actually stuck to his role was Olorin, and even he became more of a trickster and benevolent manipulator than a proper advisor to the people in charge.
@cerberus9322 : That's a great comment. I have also long speculated that Saruman had something to do with the death or disappearance of the "Blue Two". That is, if they did indeed die. I remember Tolkien writing at one point the the Blue wizards became corrupt and started practicing dark magic and forming cults. Speculating on the adventures and the fate of the Blue wizards have given me countless hours of entertainment over the years.😊
I am wide awake at 4 am in California and was delighted to see that this video had been released. I ADORE the mythology surrounding the Istari and I loved this video! There was so much in this presentation and I am going to watch it a few more times before I make any additional comments. Thanks so much for this, Rainbow Dave. Your channel is such a gift and I am very, very grateful for what you have created. I can’t wait for next week’s video!
@@nicklomas181 Oh no, I'm fascinated by the Blue Wizards! I have wanted to know what they were up to in the East since I read the Silmarillion/ Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the 1980s, and then discovered their names in The Unfinished Tales (at least I think that's were I learned their names ... it's been a while). But I never read past that book so much of what Rainbow Dave had to say about them in this video was new to me. The Istari are so compelling to me that I bought The Unfinished Tales because of the chapter on the Istari (that, and The History of Galadriel and Celeborn). I go back and forth between loving the mysteries Tolkien chose not to publish answers to ... and being incredibly frustrated by them! Thanks for the question. What are your thoughts on the Blue Wizards?
Saruman: “Greetings, I am Saruman, leader of the Istari, here to save your world.” Cirdan: “Cool.” Gandalf: “And I’m Gandalf, another Istari.” Cirdan: “Cool. Here, take my ring of power.” Saruman: “OK. Evil it is.”
In Gandalf's discussing with Frodo in the 1st book, Gandalf did say "for some reason he did not tell Sarumon about the ring." He kept that information from him.
That last bit about Gandalf is quite the revelation. Why had i not noticed this before? He really was pulling the strings on pretty much every moving part of the "good guys'" roles in the story.
Dunno if he was knowingly pulling the strings but acting with his inspiration and his goodness towards the final resolution. His trust and his friendship for the hobbits is not of interest, he finds them good and they successfully reveal themselves as the most powerful people against Sauron
I personaly beleive that Tolken wrote himself in as Gandalf influencing all the heros of middle earth and contributing to the downfall of Sauron. It is of no consequence that Gandalf the grey is seen as unworthy of the task set him but yet uncovers Sarumons treachery, Saurons true purpose and has had dealings with many of the characters before the Lord of the Rings book. Plus every happy ending needs a helping hand to guide the hero.
Considering that Tolkien wrote their new story the year after Edith died, I like to think it was Edith’s idea for the Blue Wizards to have in fact been successful. Maybe she heard his idea that they were corrupted failures and was like “honey, that’s too depressing” or something. So he changed it in her honor. Of course, we have no way of knowing if that’s true. It’s just an idea I had. But Edith had to have suggested at least one thing in her husband’s enormous legendarium, considering he was working on it through their entire marriage. I’ve heard a rumor that she talked him out of killing off Éowyn, but I don’t know if that’s true.
33:30 This actually shows through in the movies, I think: After Gandalf says "There is only one Lord of the Ring, and he does not share power." then jumps onto an Eagle, you can see realization and regret on Saruman face. Then throughout the rest of the movies he seems a lot more desperate and his actions (in comparison to his long con scheme) seem rushed with a focus on fortification of his area. (Edit: I also think it was pretty obvious that Saruman was planning to betray Sauron from the beginning. That was my impression watching the theatrical version in theaters.) I love that the more I learn about LotR the better the acting in the movies seem. :) Like how unusual expressions/reactions in some scenes in the movie suddenly make sense.
@@dionisoss1846 There are definitely scenes, where if you're looking at him from the good side you think, "That was a weird thing to say or do, but he's a very wise and knowledgeable wizard, I'm sure he's just trying to protect us in some way from something." but if you look at it from the bad side "Well done not lying to them without reveling too much either." and if you look at it from a neutral side, "That was weird. I wonder if he's hiding something?" Wizards are always hiding some knowledge so that other people can sleep at night. You see the interactions between the 2 wizards (before the betrayal is confirmed) is both comradery and caution. The tension made me uncomfortable in theaters, and there's even more of it in the extended edition. Even when Gandalf was having doors shut in his face he didn't want to believe the betrayal and corruption!
I was so happy to see Christopher Lee again as Saruman as a hero of the order, aiding Galadriel and rescuing Gandalf, and what a great ending to his career to have played so many great roles, Duku as well but let's not forget the Book Store owner in Hugo, and his gift to Hugo, a book of his youth "I think now,.... it belongs to you" and he gave him the book to remember his father by.
About “phantoms”: Sauron looked towards Frodo on Amon Hen through his Palantir, and so Frodo perceived his presence as a huge dark hand searching for him; Saruman looked towards Fangorn through his Palantir to see how his Uruk-hai were doing, and our Hunters perceived his presence there as an old man with boots that left no marks on the ground. That was what Tolkien used to name as “phantoms”, I deem.
The final fact here explains in detail all the reasons why I have always considered Gandalf to be the protagonist in LotR... not Frodo as the focus of the narrative suggests, nor Samwise as Tolkien himself stated.
I've been devouring your posts on the average of two a day for weeks now and I am... enthralled. Your scholarship and insight is phenomenal. You should be the Regius Chair of Tolkien Studies at Oxford. Dean of the Rings, so to speak, at Cambridge. Why Hogwarts hasn't offered you a tenured professorship is beyond me.
You hit the ball out of the park with the Cirdan observation! This is one of the best analysis I have heard in awhile for all the characters you discussed in the video. Well done!
It's interesting that Sauron & Saruman both served Aule & though they weren't corrupted to evil by him, I wonder if they learned to disobey Eru from him as he created the Dwarfs without permission, though he repented in contrast to his Maiar. As Tolkien contradicted himself about the fate of the blue wizards, maybe a compromise would be appropriate. I propose a what if scenario: 1 of them remained loyal & undermined evil in the East, the other fell into darkness & attempted to amass his own army. The fact neither was seen again in the West before the 4th Age could be because they were busy fighting each other. I think in the corrupted East, the good blue wizard & his followers would be outnumbered & ultimately defeated. The victorious evil blue wizard could be the villain behind the impending darkness in Tolkien's abandoned sequel. You're the expert Dave & I'd love to hear your thoughts on these ideas.
I have to pause for a second…. what a wonderful surprise! I am stuck at home at the moment as my 3 year old and my husband have covid… not too severe, looks ok, but the rest of us serve quarantine… so this video comes at the most welcome time and as always gives me pure joy! secondly… an announcement about another video coming up! Even better! 🤩🥳 thirdly … just a question.. have you given a video about the dark elf any thought yet? Would be an interesting topic😉 now back to the delight of watching your video to the end… as always… thanks for brightening my days🌈🤗
Oh no, all the best with quarantine! I'm glad the video came at a good time. I'm aware that Aredhel and Eol are perhaps the two characters I've neglected the most so far in my First Age series, but that's because their stories are so intimately tied to the tale of Gondolin. So, I promise, after I've finished with the Children of Hurin and a few other shorter stories, I'll give the Fall of Gondolin the full Tolkien Untangled treatment, and I'll have a whole video focusing on the dark elf!
@@tolkienuntangled thanks! Your videos always come at a good time! As to the content: oh what joy! I am full of anticipation for all the glorious Tolkien untangled videos that are still to come! Loving it already 👌👌☺️☺️
15:07 This amuses me no end. I like to imagine tales I would have told in different fictional universes, and I imagined Pallando the Blue as a Maia of Mandos, who volunteered because he always knew he would. His distinction is that of all the Maiar he most remembered details from the Music of the Ainur, although in his Wizard form this was more intuitive--he was have a strong sense of things, of actions he should take and places he should go, and his insight into such would grow or rise into his consciousness as events unfolded. This is because he is remembered his own place in the Music. And...he knew he would never return to Valinor until the end of days, that he would remain in the world of men nudging things, helping at crucial times, making sure the will of Eru Illuvatar was fulfilled. I imagined him also countering the remnants of Morgoth's fallen servants age after age. So he still walks the earth, still travels among men, and will do until the Valar grow weary. More, I imagined that he had been a friend of Meiron, he who become Sauron, and with his gift of foresight tried unsuccessfully to guide his friend away from some terrible choice, a choice he did not see clearly but knew approached.
Another option could be that he became a necromancer of sorts, but the good kind, though it would be pretty tricky to work that into Tolkien's mythology--or he goes bad like Saruman, and the reason why we never hear anything else about Morinehtar is because he spends all his time leading the good Easterlings against an undead army. Yours is better, but mine might be easier to make a book/movie out of.
I know Radagast gets a bum rap, but I think he was sent not so much to directly oppose Sauron but Yavanna had her own reasons and mission for him to ensure someone cared for the earth and creatures while the great powers fought Sauron. So my headcanon is Radagast did eventually return to Valinor but not in the normal way by boat. But rather one day in the 4th age he was asleep under a tree and simply disappeared like when Yoda died and Yavanna recalled his spirit to Valinor
I love this idea. Radagast did good and the best he could in my opinion. Gandalf respected him and Saruman despised him, that surely is a good reference for Radagast.
Gandalf: _"There are five us, the greatest of our order is Saruman, The White, then there are the two blue wizards... do you know, I’ve quite forgotten their names."_ Bilbo: _"And who is the fifth?"_ Gandalf: _"Well, that would be Radagast, The Brown."_ Bilbo: _"Is he a great wizard or is he… more like you?"_
Just had to say your content is super interesting and well produced sir..Appreciate all the energy and hard work you put into them..I'm not a huge LOTR fan lol but enjoy watching your videos either way
Nice video. Would be great if you could do one around magic items (aside from the rings one you did - the staffs, the crown, etc). Answer the question of whether the staffs make a difference or just a conduit etc. Thanks.
I finally convinced my friend to watch "the fellowship of the ring", being a sci-fi geek but not fantasy....all they had to say was "well, it looked pretty'....I need new friends
Awesome video! I like to think that Saruman truly believe he could control the One Ring over Sauron, is like it was a fight between both to determine who was the most powerful and knowledgeable of Aule's apprentices, maybe when his betray was revealed, he knew he cannot win both sides on his own and decide to surrender to Olorin/Gandalf. Sadly and ironically for him, his life ends just after receiving mercy from Frodo, which to Saruman's eyes was the most insignificant and powerless race of all Middle Earth, also responsible for Sauron's fall. Eru definitely didn't lack of sense of irony. Love your videos Cheers!
"BILBO BAGGINS! *DO NOT TAKE ME FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS! I AM NOT TRYING TO ROB YOU!* I'm trying to help you." "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Arnor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow! YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!"
The Incredibles meme is 20/10. So many times my friends and family will ask me something about LOTR and then get upset when I start by saying "well first lets back up several thousand years". I love it.
Aule: Creates Dwarves, gives them life against Illuvatar's wishes. Creates two of the most corrupted Maiar. Illuvatar: Well, here's a slap in the wrist. Have a good day. Melkor: Hol'up O___O
38:20 in the bock Aragorn said something to Gandalf about Gandalf being able to get to any place faster than Aragorn could. Maybe the same goes for Saruman - eventhough he's not as strong as Gandalf the White - and so he could get from Fangorn to Isengard in 2 days.
In Amazon's Rings of Power, they'd have to significantly change one major element of canon for 'The Stranger' to be Gandalf. Gandalf received the Ring of Fire before leaving Valinor after the death of Gil-Galad; who was its original possessor. His Captain carried it back when passing over the sea and met Olorin (Gandalf) just before leaving for Middle-Earth. Recognizing him for what he was, he gave him the ring to aid in his task.
And this is why Gandalf beats Dumbledor in a fight But in all honesty, you explaining that the entirety of middle earth was saved because of Gandalf is mind blowing
So I just got done at watching the extended cut movies again and am of course wanting more. I really would love to see you do a big picture video of everything that is happening in middle earth during the movies. Like it would be so cool to see everything on the map in order and include other stuff that many viewers might not know. Like what was going on with the dwarves and movement of armies and just everything that would be amazing to see all together in a video or even a trilogy like the movies!!
It always amazes me just how...different wizards are in Tolkien and they're almost never used that way in anything else. When you think of wizards very much in Gandalf's mold with the tall hat and the long robes and the beard you just sort of imagine a regular human with academic and scholarly interest in the mystic arts not what is basically a class of angels who have magic specifically bound to them. I wonder if that idea being so hard to write around and limiting the amount of magic in a story or series is why it's not used as often.
Fizban from Dragonlance suits kinda that role, treated as a wizard, but isn't and was wiser that anyone, setting things in the tale from behind the scenes. I strongly sugest reading DL...
As Ive been informed, a Balrog is really a Maiar, that has "shifted" into the form of a Balrog, inspired by their support of Melkor. What I have been wondering is: is there any lore, that suggests, whether or not, a Balrog can regain its Maiar-form? (whatever that is!)
the balrog is the original form. they werent manipulated to change, They were so strong and loyal to morgoth thst the spirit that they are took a form of evil. Thats how maiar are embodied, by their character.
At the same time, Gandalf says outside the Gates Of Moria, "I once knew all the spells in every language of Men, and Elves, and Orcs". So he most certainly gained the power on addition to the power he came to Middle Earth with!!! Gandalf either was or became a WIZARD!!!
When a Man looks into a Palantir, he _sees_ far, but when a Maia does it _his presence can be felt_ far, like Sauron’s. So I guess that the mysterious Wizard was Saruman using the Palantir to peek ahead.
I interpreted the mystery wizard in Fangorn as being the last phantom vestige of Gandalf's grey persona taking a last moment with his friends before passing away, like an after affect of his transition into his new form. Neither Saruman nor Radaghast are noted for their hats, whereas it is one of Gandalf the Grey's most notable features. It wasn't Gandalf the white, geographically couldn't be Saruman and Radaghast would most likely have spoken with them when challenged.
I find Saruman burning Isildur to be really interesting 🔥😮 wow and the part of saruman getting caught lying to the nazgul and running up to gandalf is just whoaah
Very cool dive into the who, what, and why of Wizards. If, during his early wanderings, Sauruman "found" ring-lore in Modor, where the heck did he find it; just laying by thr side of the road to Mt. Doom? Or did Sauron, even back then, seduce Sauruman to his cause--perhaps some seemingly small token of Sauruman's loyalty in exchange for some "minor" ring lore? Hmmmm.
There is a slight mistake here. The Foreword explores a what-if. IF the War of the Ring had been like WW2, Barad-Dur (Germany) would have been occupied, not destroyed, and Saruman (the USSR) would have found there the missing pieces of his Ring-lore (nuclear secrets). There's no suggestion in the work itself that he ever went to Mordor.
@@pwmiles56 ah, makes sense, though I'm not sure that Tolkien meant LOTR as an allegory. I thought the narrator suggested that Sauruman found ring lore in his early travels and had been in Mordor. Perhaps that was just speculation.
@@stevenkobb156 He absolutely didn't mean it as an allegory. The what-if was an example of what it might have been if it was an allegory, but it wasn't. Yes Rainbow did suggest what you say, apparently based off the passage in the Foreword, and I was trying to gently correct the mistake. If that's what it was. I'm not throwing any shade, the videos are great.
This video was so good. I've watched videos about the wizards on quite a few other Tolkien focused RUclips channels. This is, by far, the best. The narrator has a more extensive knowledge of what Tolkien wrote about the wizards than I've encountered elsewhere. Knowledge which comes from careful reading of the most standard texts and wide ranging reading of all else available. Further, he provides the context for where he found that information, especially as regards when Tolkien wrote it, which sheds light on how developed Tolkien's thoughts were on the subject. Then, going beyond the recitation of what Tolkien wrote, when he wades into the analysis of what was written, it is done intelligently - it is not the unhinged theory nonsense which can be simultaneously laughable and boring (the stuff that so many Song of Ice & Fire "fans" come up with...where everybody somehow turns out to be someone else). This narrator does proper analysis, where ideas are put forward, assessed for strengths or weaknesses, and only ideas which have a basis in the text and logic are considered. It's really impressive. And I'm not just being an undiscriminating fan who accepts and likes everything the narrator does. I have criticisms....eg..I bloody HATE the word "legendarium" - as applied to Tolkien. Why the fuck not just say "Tolkien's writing" It's good enough to discuss writers from Faulkner to Lovecraft, for example, & has been used for ages. Leave legendarium to the saints, it just makes talking about Tolkien's writing sound painfully stupidly pretentious.
Thanks! In regards to the word Legendarium, what other word could be used? If we say Tolkien's writings, then that would include all his non-legendarium stories, which most people don't actually mean when talking about Tolkien's writings. If we say Middle-earth writings, that would exclude everything set in Valinor or Numenor. Legendarium strikes me as the most precise word for what most people mean when they say either Middle-earth writings or Tolkien's writings. Just my opinion though.
@@tolkienuntangled Okay, if you REALLY meant your initial sentence...the question...here goes. People have been studying authors for a long time. I did - I have two literature degrees, working in three languages. And these people discuss authors' work and the worlds they create, pretty much all day long. That's the job. But no one has ever had a problem when talking about any writer's works saying either "work" or "writing", whether discussing fiction, novels, plays, essays, letters, journals, or shopping lists. It really is NOT some GREAT BIG MIND BENDING problem that will flummox the reader or listener - student, professor or dilettante as they may be. Saying "middle earth" might SO confuse some tender flower if they then see a reference to Numernor? Really? Not credible. And there certainly isn't much of a problem when talking about a writer who wrote as LITTLE as Tolkien did. He's hardly Dickens or Henry James. No one is going to be in any danger of thinking that someone talking about Tolkien's fiction is going to be referring to or including his philology work. Problems that don't actually exist don't need to be created. Then there's what the word actually means. Take "Legend" first. Tolkien's stories do not "come down from the past", nor are they "popular myths of recent origin". They're just fiction, like the tons and tons of fiction that's all over the place. Fiction written by one very well known bloke, published all quite recently, very concretely sourced. As for "legendarium" - this has historically applied to the body of legends relating to or detailing the lives of the saints. And even then it's rather silly. No one feels the need to talk of Andre Norton's Legendarium, or Lovecraft's, or any other bugger of similar ilk. Your work is really good. Which is why I get more annoyed by Legendarium. I feel like it doesn't do you proper credit. What you write and say is far far better than virtually any other Tolkien RUclips site (there's one other that's really rather good ). It's not just the breadth and depth of your knowledge, it is your ability to do rational, evidence based analysis and speculation that stands out. You especially and notably never succumb to the fever dream of wild, nutty, baseless theorizing. It's such a treat. If you were crap...I won't be so bizarrely aerated! The burdens of talent, eh? Fans do have a way of being crazy. Sorry!
I personally love the idea that the mysterious old man of Fangorn forest was Radagast, possibly disguised in some way as he is a master of shapes and hues. I just really like anything that suggests that Radagast was actually doing stuff and we just don't know about it because men, elves and dwarves just aren't Radagasts thing.
24:25 - after giving Gandalf his ring, Círdan watches sixth Wizard, "Yoda-style" to arrive, looking ten times more worthy of the ring... Círdan: "Oh, shucks..." 5:21 - I love this pattern of delegating: Valar: Let's sent Istari, far less powerful beings to take out the trash... Istari: Let's sent hobbits....
I got here from one of Men of the west's videos, and I've got to say that the joy and passion you manage to communicate through your narration has made me stay. You've earned yourself a new subscriber, good sir.
I’ve often wondered, because Tolkien never told us of Radagast’s fate, and his odd disappearance… if he could have been more important in the 4th age, after the defeat of Sauron? i think he could have been either someone that helped the protagonist or maybe even become the antagonist! Also, there are evil and foul beasts still lurking in Middle Earth that could be used to tell an incredible story! I think Radagast could have been important, a symbol that magic never really died in Middle Earth, (it’s all just a perception-caused by a new shadow!) i love hearing the way you retell Tolkien’s stories! Thank you so much for this channel-it’s FANTASTIC ❤️
Another wonder video. I find the wizards quite fascinating and I do wish there was more about the blue wizards. Sorry for the delay in my comment. Bakery inventory and a possible cold don’t mix.
Just about finished reading Fellowship for the first time. The movies have always been a big part of my life since my dad was a megafan since the 70s and took me to see the first one when I was like eight. Used to read The Hobbit to me in bed when I was even younger. I can't wrap my head around how much more I'm enjoying the book than the adaptation. It's almost always the case that the book blows adaptations out of the water, but I figured surely that wouldn't be the case with movies so good. Tolkien's prose alone makes it stand out
Thinking about the Blue Wizards and their many versions my idea is that all three variations are correct, to a degree. Yes, they counteracted Sauron and contributed to the ultimate weakening of his armies, but they did so by feigning service to him only to instigate distractions to the Men of the East (aka dark cults). When Sauron infiltrated Numenor he subverted the worship of Eru and loyalty to the Valar by presenting a new God alternative (Melkor), but he was only able to do this because the Numenorians had already largely fallen before his arrival, had he arrived earlier while the country was more faithful to the Valar and friendly to the Elves he would have a much harder time corrupting the people (even with the One Ring). It is far easier to persuade a population with something familiar to what they already think or believe. Since the East had been influenced by both Morgoth and Sauron for millennia I doubt the Blue Wizards would have had much success in the East if they had simply been Missionaries teaching about Eru because that name would have been so foreign and corrupted to their culture and societies. I say that having been a proselytizing missionary myself, trying to convince someone that your version of a religion is better than the one they already know or believe in is excruciatingly difficult. Instead, I believe that in order to succeed in weakening Sauron's influence the Blue Wizards would likely have had to "sacrifice" their goodness and teach something the local populus would recognize, aka the dark magic cults. In this way the Blues would not be fighting for the redemption of the East but would instead be sacrificing themselves to save the West, where the population was already largely loyal to Eru in one form or another. They would have been both successful in their mission, and failures at the same time.
I find Saruman more “human” than Gandalf. Both are often relatable to a degree, of course, but while Gandalf remains humble and patient in many trials, Saruman goes to great effort to become the master of his own fate, even though such an attempt basically isolates him from having any true allies. Motivated by fear, not virtue, he seems capable of repentance only when he is backed into a corner, but even then, wishes to repent while clinging to his pride. Hardly the actions of someone who once dwelt with the Valar.
You act as if these aren't human traits. And I feel sorry for you if you've grown up in such a place to where these traits aren't witnessed in the others that are around you. But do not act as if honor, valor, and chivalry aren't within us simply because you've seen it in such small amounts... It's just that some people would rather look to the times and act as if things need to change when this should not be the case. Such people act as if time isn't just a made up human ideal to begin with.... But time does not change. It is we as humans who physically change, and then we try to blame it on a frivolous thing called time while trying to act as if our morals, values, and the way we treat others around us should change along with it. Which is definitely a horrible way to handle life.
@@gimmethepinkelephant3685honour, valour and chivalry are human traits, yes. But it’s often easier to make choices against those traits which Saruman did which arguably makes him more human. Gandalf is the ideal and sometimes the reality of humanity while characters like Saruman are all too often the reality of humanity.
@@Evoker23-lx8mb I wouldn't say that it's all too often. That's all we end up seeing because the media flaunts it around like it's something to praise. But in reality that's the fringe of society. A minority basically. And yes, while many people may have it in them to act in such a way, most people don't. Most people know better than to do that. Because once you start acting like that it's a very hard thing to change. It's easy to act like an ignorant fool, but much more rewarding to act responsible and respectful.
25:27 - It's a funny little life-imitating-art aspect of the LotR movies that Christopher Lee actually auditioned for the part of Gandalf but was cast as Saruman. I often wonder if he channelled some low-key jealousy of Ian McKellen into his performance to give it that extra edge of authenticity.
in any case, very good job about the word "wizards" Too many people have fallen into the idea that movies and other books gives them, just because of inaccuracy. The reason why Tolkien's writings are what they are, is because of the accuracy he put in every aspects. We can also say, in a way, that he himself was "inspired" by Eru Iluvatar.
"Saruman's phantoms are never talked again"? You forgot that Gimli isn't the only one to talk of Saruman's phantoms! Chapter 6, when the guards meet the Fellowship they suspect they might be phantoms crafted by Saruman. It is made very explicitely between The White Rider ans The King of the Golden Hall that Saruman regularly sends phantoms to spy and haunt the country
Such an interesting and comprehensive video, dear 🌈 Dave! I’m looking forward to next week’s already. Radagast seemed a bit too …. uhhh… dim and loony in PJ’s films. I’m curious to learn more about him as he is written by the Professor. Have a glorious weekend!!!
Also, we know that 5 ISTARI arrived at the Grey Havens TOGETHER because J.R.R. Tolkien tells us so. How do you account for this if the two Blue Wizards arrived almost 5000 years before unless they were either destroyed and sent back, sailed back and then were sent back, or Tolkien made a mistake in how he described the characters and the Istari whom arrive in the Second Age are entirely different..
The Blue Wizards - That's what Amazon should have done: So much freedom to create new stories and even contradictory source stories leaving them a lot of wiggle room by not locking them down to a single predetermined ending. Yes, it all eventually leads to the war of the ring but the Blue Wizards arrival, interactions with Sauron & Suraman, influences on the people, and even their final allegiances and resulting fates could be debated. Maybe even much more appealing to Amazon, the nature of the "races" in that part of Middle Earth aren't super well defined - unlike in the West.
Seems to be what they're doing
The Rainbow Wizards more likely
@@Moldylocks next thing you'll see is a wizard of "many colors"
That would require creativity, something that the show runners are obviously lacking in any form.
Or they could of just..... stick to the book and not try and ruin it with their stupid ideas
“So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” That Gandalf quote really helped me through some tough times. The Istari are so intriguing. Great video Rainbow Dave!
There are so many inspirational moments, but I think this is also my favorite
It's just so applicable to life in general. Even the small things like cook a healthy dinner or get some fast food and booze, do homework or play videogames, get some exercise or watch a movie etc. Frodo didn't hesitate to do the prudent thing once he realised that it would put everyone in mortal danger of he didn't which really puts things in perspective. I love it
Great quote for society today
Its certainly a good quote for the times we live in, at least in the USA, seeing how we elected a government that pushed for a war in Ukraine, and is now pushing for a war in Taiwan, all while bankrupting us by refusing to drill for oi, and who's answer to any problem is "give the government more taxpayer money" But, unlike in fantasy, us Hobbits are too little to do much about any of it in reality.
Same here!!! This quote when I first heard it struck me so deep.
I always thought that Gandalf inherited The White from Saruman when he was sent back to Middle-Earth, and the figure in Fangorn forest was Gandalf, but still in something of a daze after being reborn. I don't have the book handy, but I seem to recall Gandalf was watching Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli because he was slowly regaining his memories, and he couldn't be sure at first that it was them. Tolkien also has Gandalf answer a question with a question quite often in LotR. I think Gandalf is essentially a teacher, and so when people ask him a question, rather than answer it directly he has them think about what the answer could be. So, when he is asked if it is he wandering the forest, his reply is more along the lines of "Well, who else do you think it could be?" and the three companions already were speculating that it was Saruman.
You are 100% correct.
I think Saruman is a really important figure because he's aligned with Sauron but also working for his own interests and has his own campaigns. It's like evil leaders can't help but not cooperate. He makes the books more interesting because he's not just a loyal lieutenant to Sauron. He's also not invincible or always right. He overextends and ends up mobilizing the complacent Ents.
Christopher Lee really did a great job at someone clever and powerful but also flawed and doomed.
I think it's also interesting because Sauron and Saurumon were Maiar under Aule, the craftsman god. There's something to be said about how wanting to take and warp the world to your imagination is less good aligned than bad. It's not inherently bad, as we see with Aule and the Dwarves, but it can very quickly spin off into being control hungry. They start to try changing the world around them because it's what they do as smiths. They work well together as fellow apprentices, but that same apprenticeship keeps them competitive rather than cooperative. Because I 100% agree, Saurumon was working against Sauron by trying to craft and raise his own army. P.S. Melkor was cursed with knowledge and it's his desire to create that turns him evil. It's just a bad way to approach life, I guess. Sorry blacksmiths.
Saruman was not actually natrually aligned with Sauron; its true to say he worked with Sauron, but I think he though eventually he would gain the upper hand and then the one ring and destroy it that way. Saruman I think was working for "good" but in roundabout ways.
@@handgun559 Tolkien grew up under the the industrialization era. He had philosophical doubts towards the efficacy of it. To be fair, there is an actual Valar in heaven dedicated to the glorfied purpose of those things. It is the failure of his servants, not his aspect. Melkor is described as the most gifted by Eru but it would be foolish to describe Eru as an extention of Melkor's flaws.
@@CalridRobnor123srs Saruman worked solely for his own good. He betrayed both the free peoples and Sauron. He wanted to order middle earth according to his will just as Sauron wanted to.
He was one of my favorite characters ❤rip ❤️ 🙏🏽
I definitely would love more on the Blue Wizards. But at the same time They are one of those things in fiction where “maybe it’s best left unsaid”
The five Maiar chosen for the task actually make a lot of sense.
Curumo is there to give technology and industry to men, so that they could match Sauron's forces, who received the same kind of guidance from him.
Alatar was sent for his expertise when it came to slaying the various monsters Sauron was breeding.
Olorin was sent to serve as an advisor for men, who would help everyone without prejudice.
Aiwendil was sent specifically to serve as a counter-balance for Curumo, making sure the industry he'd promote wouldn't end up hurting nature too much.
Pallando was sent as another monster hunter, but more focused on the wraiths and undead Sauron created.
This lineup makes perfect sense, but then the depowering messed things up. Curumo became so enamored with his work, he turned arrogant, which led to his corruption through the pallantir, and he ended up creating his own industrialized power-base. Aiwendil was so focused on nature he became a recluse in the woods, and failed to serve as a balancing force for Curumo, completely unaware of the destruction the latter was causing. Alatar and Pallando became so absorbed into hunting monsters and wraiths that they went east to look for prey, leaving the west defenseless against Sauron's war-trolls, fellbeasts, and the Nazgul.
The only one who actually stuck to his role was Olorin, and even he became more of a trickster and benevolent manipulator than a proper advisor to the people in charge.
This is a really cool way of looking at it!
I think I once read that the Wizards really were advisors, but Men often took their advice as orders.
@cerberus9322 : That's a great comment. I have also long speculated that Saruman had something to do with the death or disappearance of the "Blue Two". That is, if they did indeed die. I remember Tolkien writing at one point the the Blue wizards became corrupt and started practicing dark magic and forming cults.
Speculating on the adventures and the fate of the Blue wizards have given me countless hours of entertainment over the years.😊
I am wide awake at 4 am in California and was delighted to see that this video had been released. I ADORE the mythology surrounding the Istari and I loved this video! There was so much in this presentation and I am going to watch it a few more times before I make any additional comments. Thanks so much for this, Rainbow Dave. Your channel is such a gift and I am very, very grateful for what you have created. I can’t wait for next week’s video!
Thanks for your kind words! I'm really glad you enjoyed the video.
Me2❤
It's intriguing, and detailed combined with his awesome accent in his voice, it's perfect.
@@thrithgolden2748 I love his voice! It really is perfect, isn't it?
Hi Kelly, Does your interest include the blue wizards? Or do you write them off as unimportant/ambiguous?
@@nicklomas181 Oh no, I'm fascinated by the Blue Wizards! I have wanted to know what they were up to in the East since I read the Silmarillion/ Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the 1980s, and then discovered their names in The Unfinished Tales (at least I think that's were I learned their names ... it's been a while). But I never read past that book so much of what Rainbow Dave had to say about them in this video was new to me. The Istari are so compelling to me that I bought The Unfinished Tales because of the chapter on the Istari (that, and The History of Galadriel and Celeborn). I go back and forth between loving the mysteries Tolkien chose not to publish answers to ... and being incredibly frustrated by them! Thanks for the question. What are your thoughts on the Blue Wizards?
Saruman: “Greetings, I am Saruman, leader of the Istari, here to save your world.”
Cirdan: “Cool.”
Gandalf: “And I’m Gandalf, another Istari.”
Cirdan: “Cool. Here, take my ring of power.”
Saruman: “OK. Evil it is.”
Saruman in a nutshell.
In Gandalf's discussing with Frodo in the 1st book, Gandalf did say "for some reason he did not tell Sarumon about the ring." He kept that information from him.
Compartmentalization is a powerful part of security. You can’t divulge a secret you don’t know.
That last bit about Gandalf is quite the revelation. Why had i not noticed this before?
He really was pulling the strings on pretty much every moving part of the "good guys'" roles in the story.
Dunno if he was knowingly pulling the strings but acting with his inspiration and his goodness towards the final resolution. His trust and his friendship for the hobbits is not of interest, he finds them good and they successfully reveal themselves as the most powerful people against Sauron
I personaly beleive that Tolken wrote himself in as Gandalf influencing all the heros of middle earth and contributing to the downfall of Sauron. It is of no consequence that Gandalf the grey is seen as unworthy of the task set him but yet uncovers Sarumons treachery, Saurons true purpose and has had dealings with many of the characters before the Lord of the Rings book. Plus every happy ending needs a helping hand to guide the hero.
@@benbaxter1047 that is certainly plausible
Tolkien always has words as the most powerful force... but it’s ideas that are. Gandalf’s power was the power of suggestions for improvement.
I'm really glad that in the end, the blue wizards got the story they deserve
Considering that Tolkien wrote their new story the year after Edith died, I like to think it was Edith’s idea for the Blue Wizards to have in fact been successful. Maybe she heard his idea that they were corrupted failures and was like “honey, that’s too depressing” or something. So he changed it in her honor.
Of course, we have no way of knowing if that’s true. It’s just an idea I had.
But Edith had to have suggested at least one thing in her husband’s enormous legendarium, considering he was working on it through their entire marriage. I’ve heard a rumor that she talked him out of killing off Éowyn, but I don’t know if that’s true.
33:30 This actually shows through in the movies, I think:
After Gandalf says "There is only one Lord of the Ring, and he does not share power." then jumps onto an Eagle, you can see realization and regret on Saruman face. Then throughout the rest of the movies he seems a lot more desperate and his actions (in comparison to his long con scheme) seem rushed with a focus on fortification of his area.
(Edit: I also think it was pretty obvious that Saruman was planning to betray Sauron from the beginning. That was my impression watching the theatrical version in theaters.)
I love that the more I learn about LotR the better the acting in the movies seem. :)
Like how unusual expressions/reactions in some scenes in the movie suddenly make sense.
In the opposite, it feels that in the movies they consciously blurred out the double role of Saruman
@@dionisoss1846 There are definitely scenes, where if you're looking at him from the good side you think, "That was a weird thing to say or do, but he's a very wise and knowledgeable wizard, I'm sure he's just trying to protect us in some way from something." but if you look at it from the bad side "Well done not lying to them without reveling too much either." and if you look at it from a neutral side, "That was weird. I wonder if he's hiding something?"
Wizards are always hiding some knowledge so that other people can sleep at night. You see the interactions between the 2 wizards (before the betrayal is confirmed) is both comradery and caution. The tension made me uncomfortable in theaters, and there's even more of it in the extended edition.
Even when Gandalf was having doors shut in his face he didn't want to believe the betrayal and corruption!
I was so happy to see Christopher Lee again as Saruman as a hero of the order, aiding Galadriel and rescuing Gandalf, and what a great ending to his career to have played so many great roles, Duku as well but let's not forget the Book Store owner in Hugo, and his gift to Hugo, a book of his youth "I think now,.... it belongs to you" and he gave him the book to remember his father by.
I loved this! Your lists are so much more than just opinion lists. You never fail to elaborate on your points and teach us, thank you rainbow Dave!
"We get there when we get there!"
lol
Great video, RD!
About “phantoms”: Sauron looked towards Frodo on Amon Hen through his Palantir, and so Frodo perceived his presence as a huge dark hand searching for him; Saruman looked towards Fangorn through his Palantir to see how his Uruk-hai were doing, and our Hunters perceived his presence there as an old man with boots that left no marks on the ground.
That was what Tolkien used to name as “phantoms”, I deem.
That is what I was thinking. I forgot about his Palantir. Saruman has many means and motives to watch and spy on others as a phantom.
Basically Astral Projection, pretty cool ngl
The final fact here explains in detail all the reasons why I have always considered Gandalf to be the protagonist in LotR... not Frodo as the focus of the narrative suggests, nor Samwise as Tolkien himself stated.
I've been devouring your posts on the average of two a day for weeks now and I am... enthralled. Your scholarship and insight is phenomenal. You should be the Regius Chair of Tolkien Studies at Oxford. Dean of the Rings, so to speak, at Cambridge. Why Hogwarts hasn't offered you a tenured professorship is beyond me.
You hit the ball out of the park with the Cirdan observation! This is one of the best analysis I have heard in awhile for all the characters you discussed in the video. Well done!
Thanks! I'm glad you think so.
I’ve been binging this channel for a few weeks. Solid work.
It's interesting that Sauron & Saruman both served Aule & though they weren't corrupted to evil by him, I wonder if they learned to disobey Eru from him as he created the Dwarfs without permission, though he repented in contrast to his Maiar. As Tolkien contradicted himself about the fate of the blue wizards, maybe a compromise would be appropriate. I propose a what if scenario: 1 of them remained loyal & undermined evil in the East, the other fell into darkness & attempted to amass his own army. The fact neither was seen again in the West before the 4th Age could be because they were busy fighting each other. I think in the corrupted East, the good blue wizard & his followers would be outnumbered & ultimately defeated. The victorious evil blue wizard could be the villain behind the impending darkness in Tolkien's abandoned sequel. You're the expert Dave & I'd love to hear your thoughts on these ideas.
This couldn't have come at a better time. Great video, thanks for posting!
I have to pause for a second….
what a wonderful surprise! I am stuck at home at the moment as my 3 year old and my husband have covid… not too severe, looks ok, but the rest of us serve quarantine… so this video comes at the most welcome time and as always gives me pure joy!
secondly… an announcement about another video coming up! Even better! 🤩🥳
thirdly … just a question.. have you given a video about the dark elf any thought yet? Would be an interesting topic😉
now back to the delight of watching your video to the end… as always… thanks for brightening my days🌈🤗
Oh no, all the best with quarantine! I'm glad the video came at a good time.
I'm aware that Aredhel and Eol are perhaps the two characters I've neglected the most so far in my First Age series, but that's because their stories are so intimately tied to the tale of Gondolin. So, I promise, after I've finished with the Children of Hurin and a few other shorter stories, I'll give the Fall of Gondolin the full Tolkien Untangled treatment, and I'll have a whole video focusing on the dark elf!
@@tolkienuntangled thanks! Your videos always come at a good time! As to the content: oh what joy! I am full of anticipation for all the glorious Tolkien untangled videos that are still to come! Loving it already 👌👌☺️☺️
15:07 This amuses me no end. I like to imagine tales I would have told in different fictional universes, and I imagined Pallando the Blue as a Maia of Mandos, who volunteered because he always knew he would. His distinction is that of all the Maiar he most remembered details from the Music of the Ainur, although in his Wizard form this was more intuitive--he was have a strong sense of things, of actions he should take and places he should go, and his insight into such would grow or rise into his consciousness as events unfolded. This is because he is remembered his own place in the Music. And...he knew he would never return to Valinor until the end of days, that he would remain in the world of men nudging things, helping at crucial times, making sure the will of Eru Illuvatar was fulfilled. I imagined him also countering the remnants of Morgoth's fallen servants age after age. So he still walks the earth, still travels among men, and will do until the Valar grow weary.
More, I imagined that he had been a friend of Meiron, he who become Sauron, and with his gift of foresight tried unsuccessfully to guide his friend away from some terrible choice, a choice he did not see clearly but knew approached.
Another option could be that he became a necromancer of sorts, but the good kind, though it would be pretty tricky to work that into Tolkien's mythology--or he goes bad like Saruman, and the reason why we never hear anything else about Morinehtar is because he spends all his time leading the good Easterlings against an undead army. Yours is better, but mine might be easier to make a book/movie out of.
Well met RD! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON! Long live the Istari. "Mithrandir! Mithrandir has come! The White Rider has come to save Minas Tirith!!"
I know Radagast gets a bum rap, but I think he was sent not so much to directly oppose Sauron but Yavanna had her own reasons and mission for him to ensure someone cared for the earth and creatures while the great powers fought Sauron. So my headcanon is Radagast did eventually return to Valinor but not in the normal way by boat. But rather one day in the 4th age he was asleep under a tree and simply disappeared like when Yoda died and Yavanna recalled his spirit to Valinor
I love this idea. Radagast did good and the best he could in my opinion. Gandalf respected him and Saruman despised him, that surely is a good reference for Radagast.
That’s a great sentiment. Someone had to care for the creatures of Middle Earth while the free peoples are at war
Gandalf: _"There are five us, the greatest of our order is Saruman, The White, then there are the two blue wizards... do you know, I’ve quite forgotten their names."_
Bilbo: _"And who is the fifth?"_
Gandalf: _"Well, that would be Radagast, The Brown."_
Bilbo: _"Is he a great wizard or is he… more like you?"_
Hahaha dammit Bilbo!
love your stuff, very relaxing voice
Imma be honest this is stretching the definition of a top 10 list I love the video
An hour! I feel blessed!
I really enjoyed this. Thank you for the work and time you put into this post :) Excellent!
Just had to say your content is super interesting and well produced sir..Appreciate all the energy and hard work you put into them..I'm not a huge LOTR fan lol but enjoy watching your videos either way
Thanks very much! I'm glad you enjoy the channel.
“…had the decency to betray everyone…” lol
Nice video. Would be great if you could do one around magic items (aside from the rings one you did - the staffs, the crown, etc). Answer the question of whether the staffs make a difference or just a conduit etc. Thanks.
awesome breakdown!
I finally convinced my friend to watch "the fellowship of the ring", being a sci-fi geek but not fantasy....all they had to say was "well, it looked pretty'....I need new friends
I shall play a dirge for your ignorant companion 😂
Bravo, Rainbow Dave! Another fantastic, informative video. I have now watched everything on your channel. Can’t wait for your next First Age series!
Thanks so much! I'm really glad you enjoy the channel!
Gandalf is the undisputed king of networking in middle earth
Definitely true!
Awesome video!
I like to think that Saruman truly believe he could control the One Ring over Sauron, is like it was a fight between both to determine who was the most powerful and knowledgeable of Aule's apprentices, maybe when his betray was revealed, he knew he cannot win both sides on his own and decide to surrender to Olorin/Gandalf.
Sadly and ironically for him, his life ends just after receiving mercy from Frodo, which to Saruman's eyes was the most insignificant and powerless race of all Middle Earth, also responsible for Sauron's fall. Eru definitely didn't lack of sense of irony.
Love your videos
Cheers!
Wow, another fantastic addition to my favourite Tolkein, youtube Channel. Keep up the good work Rainbow Dave!
"BILBO BAGGINS! *DO NOT TAKE ME FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS! I AM NOT TRYING TO ROB YOU!* I'm trying to help you."
"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Arnor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow! YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!"
The Incredibles meme is 20/10. So many times my friends and family will ask me something about LOTR and then get upset when I start by saying "well first lets back up several thousand years". I love it.
A very detailed, comprehensive video with a lot of detail and ideas. Well done
Aule: Creates Dwarves, gives them life against Illuvatar's wishes. Creates two of the most corrupted Maiar.
Illuvatar: Well, here's a slap in the wrist. Have a good day.
Melkor: Hol'up O___O
Wonderful work! Thank you! So happy to find so many Tolkien Lore Masters to get my fill of Middle-Earth knowledge!
38:20 in the bock Aragorn said something to Gandalf about Gandalf being able to get to any place faster than Aragorn could. Maybe the same goes for Saruman - eventhough he's not as strong as Gandalf the White - and so he could get from Fangorn to Isengard in 2 days.
These are just so much fun :D I've been pondering Tolkien's work since I found it back in 79 LOL -- loving this!
In Amazon's Rings of Power, they'd have to significantly change one major element of canon for 'The Stranger' to be Gandalf. Gandalf received the Ring of Fire before leaving Valinor after the death of Gil-Galad; who was its original possessor. His Captain carried it back when passing over the sea and met Olorin (Gandalf) just before leaving for Middle-Earth. Recognizing him for what he was, he gave him the ring to aid in his task.
And this is why Gandalf beats Dumbledor in a fight
But in all honesty, you explaining that the entirety of middle earth was saved because of Gandalf is mind blowing
Wow, what an awesome video. You really know your stuff man!
Your videos are always so groovy!
Thank you. I'm still binge watching your videos!! Amazing work brother.
So I just got done at watching the extended cut movies again and am of course wanting more. I really would love to see you do a big picture video of everything that is happening in middle earth during the movies. Like it would be so cool to see everything on the map in order and include other stuff that many viewers might not know. Like what was going on with the dwarves and movement of armies and just everything that would be amazing to see all together in a video or even a trilogy like the movies!!
Yay another channel that's super niche and detailed about a subject I like a lot. ALL THE CONTENT
It always amazes me just how...different wizards are in Tolkien and they're almost never used that way in anything else. When you think of wizards very much in Gandalf's mold with the tall hat and the long robes and the beard you just sort of imagine a regular human with academic and scholarly interest in the mystic arts not what is basically a class of angels who have magic specifically bound to them. I wonder if that idea being so hard to write around and limiting the amount of magic in a story or series is why it's not used as often.
Fizban from Dragonlance suits kinda that role, treated as a wizard, but isn't and was wiser that anyone, setting things in the tale from behind the scenes. I strongly sugest reading DL...
As Ive been informed, a Balrog is really a Maiar, that has "shifted" into the form of a Balrog, inspired by their support of Melkor. What I have been wondering is: is there any lore, that suggests, whether or not, a Balrog can regain its Maiar-form? (whatever that is!)
the balrog is the original form. they werent manipulated to change, They were so strong and loyal to morgoth thst the spirit that they are took a form of evil. Thats how maiar are embodied, by their character.
At the same time, Gandalf says outside the Gates Of Moria, "I once knew all the spells in every language of Men, and Elves, and Orcs". So he most certainly gained the power on addition to the power he came to Middle Earth with!!! Gandalf either was or became a WIZARD!!!
When a Man looks into a Palantir, he _sees_ far, but when a Maia does it _his presence can be felt_ far, like Sauron’s. So I guess that the mysterious Wizard was Saruman using the Palantir to peek ahead.
IT'S FRIDAY 🎉 I❤ YOU MAN! THANK YOU.
I interpreted the mystery wizard in Fangorn as being the last phantom vestige of Gandalf's grey persona taking a last moment with his friends before passing away, like an after affect of his transition into his new form. Neither Saruman nor Radaghast are noted for their hats, whereas it is one of Gandalf the Grey's most notable features. It wasn't Gandalf the white, geographically couldn't be Saruman and Radaghast would most likely have spoken with them when challenged.
Great video and job on all things Tolkien and middle Earth mythos Rainbow Dave.
Okay, you've convinced me that Gandalf is the true evil mastermind of Middle Earth.
It's just impossible to listen to Rainbow Dave's videos without feeling a welling-up of great love for him. 💙💜💛
one of the best LOTR channels on RUclips!! keep it up dude =)
Thanks! I'm really glad you enjoy.
I find Saruman burning Isildur to be really interesting 🔥😮 wow and the part of saruman getting caught lying to the nazgul and running up to gandalf is just whoaah
I found myself thinking while you were talking about Sauramon engaging mysteriously in the East that sadly.....he was probably murdering Blues :(
Very enjoyable, entertaining and educational!! Well Done!!!
Great Tolkien analysis and insights as always!
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it
Very cool dive into the who, what, and why of Wizards. If, during his early wanderings, Sauruman "found" ring-lore in Modor, where the heck did he find it; just laying by thr side of the road to Mt. Doom? Or did Sauron, even back then, seduce Sauruman to his cause--perhaps some seemingly small token of Sauruman's loyalty in exchange for some "minor" ring lore? Hmmmm.
There is a slight mistake here. The Foreword explores a what-if. IF the War of the Ring had been like WW2, Barad-Dur (Germany) would have been occupied, not destroyed, and Saruman (the USSR) would have found there the missing pieces of his Ring-lore (nuclear secrets). There's no suggestion in the work itself that he ever went to Mordor.
@@pwmiles56 ah, makes sense, though I'm not sure that Tolkien meant LOTR as an allegory.
I thought the narrator suggested that Sauruman found ring lore in his early travels and had been in Mordor. Perhaps that was just speculation.
@@stevenkobb156 He absolutely didn't mean it as an allegory. The what-if was an example of what it might have been if it was an allegory, but it wasn't.
Yes Rainbow did suggest what you say, apparently based off the passage in the Foreword, and I was trying to gently correct the mistake. If that's what it was. I'm not throwing any shade, the videos are great.
@MrPwmiles Yeah, you're right. Thanks for the correction!
I think 40min is the perfect video length. Not every video essay has to be one hour plus. Engaging from beginning to end :)
Great video as always. Mindblown by that drunkard wizard analogy! 😅😅😅
I guess Melkor was really the "worst guy ever" lmao. Excellent content!
This video was so good. I've watched videos about the wizards on quite a few other Tolkien focused RUclips channels. This is, by far, the best.
The narrator has a more extensive knowledge of what Tolkien wrote about the wizards than I've encountered elsewhere. Knowledge which comes from careful reading of the most standard texts and wide ranging reading of all else available. Further, he provides the context for where he found that information, especially as regards when Tolkien wrote it, which sheds light on how developed Tolkien's thoughts were on the subject.
Then, going beyond the recitation of what Tolkien wrote, when he wades into the analysis of what was written, it is done intelligently - it is not the unhinged theory nonsense which can be simultaneously laughable and boring (the stuff that so many Song of Ice & Fire "fans" come up with...where everybody somehow turns out to be someone else).
This narrator does proper analysis, where ideas are put forward, assessed for strengths or weaknesses, and only ideas which have a basis in the text and logic are considered.
It's really impressive.
And I'm not just being an undiscriminating fan who accepts and likes everything the narrator does. I have criticisms....eg..I bloody HATE the word "legendarium" - as applied to Tolkien. Why the fuck not just say "Tolkien's writing" It's good enough to discuss writers from Faulkner to Lovecraft, for example, & has been used for ages. Leave legendarium to the saints, it just makes talking about Tolkien's writing sound painfully stupidly pretentious.
Thanks! In regards to the word Legendarium, what other word could be used? If we say Tolkien's writings, then that would include all his non-legendarium stories, which most people don't actually mean when talking about Tolkien's writings. If we say Middle-earth writings, that would exclude everything set in Valinor or Numenor. Legendarium strikes me as the most precise word for what most people mean when they say either Middle-earth writings or Tolkien's writings. Just my opinion though.
@@tolkienuntangled Okay, if you REALLY meant your initial sentence...the question...here goes.
People have been studying authors for a long time. I did - I have two literature degrees, working in three languages.
And these people discuss authors' work and the worlds they create, pretty much all day long. That's the job.
But no one has ever had a problem when talking about any writer's works saying either "work" or "writing", whether discussing fiction, novels, plays, essays, letters, journals, or shopping lists. It really is NOT some GREAT BIG MIND BENDING problem that will flummox the reader or listener - student, professor or dilettante as they may be.
Saying "middle earth" might SO confuse some tender flower if they then see a reference to Numernor? Really?
Not credible.
And there certainly isn't much of a problem when talking about a writer who wrote as LITTLE as Tolkien did. He's hardly Dickens or Henry James.
No one is going to be in any danger of thinking that someone talking about Tolkien's fiction is going to be referring to or including his philology work.
Problems that don't actually exist don't need to be created.
Then there's what the word actually means.
Take "Legend" first. Tolkien's stories do not "come down from the past", nor are they "popular myths of recent origin". They're just fiction, like the tons and tons of fiction that's all over the place. Fiction written by one very well known bloke, published all quite recently, very concretely sourced.
As for "legendarium" - this has historically applied to the body of legends relating to or detailing the lives of the saints. And even then it's rather silly.
No one feels the need to talk of Andre Norton's Legendarium, or Lovecraft's, or any other bugger of similar ilk.
Your work is really good. Which is why I get more annoyed by Legendarium. I feel like it doesn't do you proper credit. What you write and say is far far better than virtually any other Tolkien RUclips site (there's one other that's really rather good ). It's not just the breadth and depth of your knowledge, it is your ability to do rational, evidence based analysis and speculation that stands out. You especially and notably never succumb to the fever dream of wild, nutty, baseless theorizing. It's such a treat.
If you were crap...I won't be so bizarrely aerated! The burdens of talent, eh? Fans do have a way of being crazy. Sorry!
I personally love the idea that the mysterious old man of Fangorn forest was Radagast, possibly disguised in some way as he is a master of shapes and hues. I just really like anything that suggests that Radagast was actually doing stuff and we just don't know about it because men, elves and dwarves just aren't Radagasts thing.
🌈 Dave: "Aule seems to have poor taste in Maia."
Aule: #SendDatThunderbolt
Excellent job with this. Thanks!!
24:25 - after giving Gandalf his ring, Círdan watches sixth Wizard, "Yoda-style" to arrive, looking ten times more worthy of the ring... Círdan: "Oh, shucks..."
5:21 - I love this pattern of delegating:
Valar: Let's sent Istari, far less powerful beings to take out the trash...
Istari: Let's sent hobbits....
I got here from one of Men of the west's videos, and I've got to say that the joy and passion you manage to communicate through your narration has made me stay. You've earned yourself a new subscriber, good sir.
Thanks! Much appreciated.
I’ve often wondered, because Tolkien never told us of Radagast’s fate, and his odd disappearance… if he could have been more important in the 4th age, after the defeat of Sauron? i think he could have been either someone that helped the protagonist or maybe even become the antagonist! Also, there are evil and foul beasts still lurking in Middle Earth that could be used to tell an incredible story! I think Radagast could have been important, a symbol that magic never really died in Middle Earth, (it’s all just a perception-caused by a new shadow!) i love hearing the way you retell Tolkien’s stories! Thank you so much for this channel-it’s FANTASTIC ❤️
Another wonder video. I find the wizards quite fascinating and I do wish there was more about the blue wizards.
Sorry for the delay in my comment. Bakery inventory and a possible cold don’t mix.
Just about finished reading Fellowship for the first time. The movies have always been a big part of my life since my dad was a megafan since the 70s and took me to see the first one when I was like eight. Used to read The Hobbit to me in bed when I was even younger. I can't wrap my head around how much more I'm enjoying the book than the adaptation. It's almost always the case that the book blows adaptations out of the water, but I figured surely that wouldn't be the case with movies so good. Tolkien's prose alone makes it stand out
Thank you for all your hard work.
I love tolkien
I injoy your great indept detailed breakdown of Tolkien tails.
Nice work dude thanks
You sound like Jack Whitehall and that just makes your videos more fun to listen to :D
Thinking about the Blue Wizards and their many versions my idea is that all three variations are correct, to a degree. Yes, they counteracted Sauron and contributed to the ultimate weakening of his armies, but they did so by feigning service to him only to instigate distractions to the Men of the East (aka dark cults). When Sauron infiltrated Numenor he subverted the worship of Eru and loyalty to the Valar by presenting a new God alternative (Melkor), but he was only able to do this because the Numenorians had already largely fallen before his arrival, had he arrived earlier while the country was more faithful to the Valar and friendly to the Elves he would have a much harder time corrupting the people (even with the One Ring). It is far easier to persuade a population with something familiar to what they already think or believe. Since the East had been influenced by both Morgoth and Sauron for millennia I doubt the Blue Wizards would have had much success in the East if they had simply been Missionaries teaching about Eru because that name would have been so foreign and corrupted to their culture and societies. I say that having been a proselytizing missionary myself, trying to convince someone that your version of a religion is better than the one they already know or believe in is excruciatingly difficult. Instead, I believe that in order to succeed in weakening Sauron's influence the Blue Wizards would likely have had to "sacrifice" their goodness and teach something the local populus would recognize, aka the dark magic cults. In this way the Blues would not be fighting for the redemption of the East but would instead be sacrificing themselves to save the West, where the population was already largely loyal to Eru in one form or another. They would have been both successful in their mission, and failures at the same time.
I subscribe to a number of middle earth channels and this is the best.
Thanks!
I find Saruman more “human” than Gandalf. Both are often relatable to a degree, of course, but while Gandalf remains humble and patient in many trials, Saruman goes to great effort to become the master of his own fate, even though such an attempt basically isolates him from having any true allies. Motivated by fear, not virtue, he seems capable of repentance only when he is backed into a corner, but even then, wishes to repent while clinging to his pride. Hardly the actions of someone who once dwelt with the Valar.
You act as if these aren't human traits. And I feel sorry for you if you've grown up in such a place to where these traits aren't witnessed in the others that are around you. But do not act as if honor, valor, and chivalry aren't within us simply because you've seen it in such small amounts... It's just that some people would rather look to the times and act as if things need to change when this should not be the case.
Such people act as if time isn't just a made up human ideal to begin with.... But time does not change. It is we as humans who physically change, and then we try to blame it on a frivolous thing called time while trying to act as if our morals, values, and the way we treat others around us should change along with it. Which is definitely a horrible way to handle life.
@@gimmethepinkelephant3685honour, valour and chivalry are human traits, yes. But it’s often easier to make choices against those traits which Saruman did which arguably makes him more human. Gandalf is the ideal and sometimes the reality of humanity while characters like Saruman are all too often the reality of humanity.
@@Evoker23-lx8mb I wouldn't say that it's all too often. That's all we end up seeing because the media flaunts it around like it's something to praise. But in reality that's the fringe of society. A minority basically. And yes, while many people may have it in them to act in such a way, most people don't. Most people know better than to do that. Because once you start acting like that it's a very hard thing to change. It's easy to act like an ignorant fool, but much more rewarding to act responsible and respectful.
@@gimmethepinkelephant3685 even a minority is what I’d describe as “all too often” in this scenario.
Excellent Video Again🎉❤
Great channel. Earned the sub.
25:27 - It's a funny little life-imitating-art aspect of the LotR movies that Christopher Lee actually auditioned for the part of Gandalf but was cast as Saruman. I often wonder if he channelled some low-key jealousy of Ian McKellen into his performance to give it that extra edge of authenticity.
Love you stories and explanations.
in any case, very good job about the word "wizards"
Too many people have fallen into the idea that movies and other books gives them, just because of inaccuracy.
The reason why Tolkien's writings are what they are, is because of the accuracy he put in every aspects.
We can also say, in a way, that he himself was "inspired" by Eru Iluvatar.
Just found your Chanel glad to find a big time lore man
Welcome aboard!
@@tolkienuntangled mercy buckets
"Saruman's phantoms are never talked again"? You forgot that Gimli isn't the only one to talk of Saruman's phantoms! Chapter 6, when the guards meet the Fellowship they suspect they might be phantoms crafted by Saruman. It is made very explicitely between The White Rider ans The King of the Golden Hall that Saruman regularly sends phantoms to spy and haunt the country
Man, do you consider a spotify channel with your content. I'll subscribe at once. Love you voice :)
Such an interesting and comprehensive video, dear 🌈 Dave!
I’m looking forward to next week’s already. Radagast seemed a bit too …. uhhh… dim and loony in PJ’s films. I’m curious to learn more about him as he is written by the Professor.
Have a glorious weekend!!!
Thank you! Same to you!
The fact that you don't include any footage from the Hobbit trilogy makes me happy. Excellent video.
amazing video!!
Also, we know that 5 ISTARI arrived at the Grey Havens TOGETHER because J.R.R. Tolkien tells us so. How do you account for this if the two Blue Wizards arrived almost 5000 years before unless they were either destroyed and sent back, sailed back and then were sent back, or Tolkien made a mistake in how he described the characters and the Istari whom arrive in the Second Age are entirely different..