I would say its not useful. The first thing you do after crashing is pulling the helmet back into position. The thing isnt glued onto you head, it can slide. If you dont have short hair the helmet will slide even more. I dont say MIPS is bad, but I think its not necessary and it might be a marketing thing, becuse the development of helmets has pretty much come to an end when only concidering hard helmets made from polymers.
Hello, You are correct that a helmet does shift on the rider's head in the event of an impact. However, if the helmet is fitted properly, it should not shift that much. If the rider has to drastically move the helmet back into position following an impact, that tells me 1) that might have been a severe impact, or 2) the helmet may not have been properly fitted and was too loose. If a helmet is fitted properly, your scalp does already function like a slip plane. Our research shows that our LDL system (like MIPS) expands upon that functionality and allows for even more rotational torque forces to be redirected or dissipated before reaching the rider's head, and reducing the g-forces applied to the brain. All of this is in an effort to engineer a helmet that addresses a wider range and variety of impact forces. The added benefit of LDL and similar soft padding systems like Leatt's 360 Turbine and POC's SPIN is that they provide protection at lower g-forces where EPS is still too hard and does not compress. You are right that helmet technology and development has been fairly stagnant for decades. But that is due in part to the available molding technologies and materials of the day. We are now able to make much more complex molds that allow us to use a variety of shapes and multiple materials. For example, our motocross Prana helmet utilizes 7 different densities of EPS foam placed strategically throughout the helmet to provide the most protection in the smallest possible package. We are also experimenting with new materials like Nano Fusion which we noted in the video. But this is a slow and expensive process that isn't always justified by consumers who, until recently, generally have been concerned with vent count and aesthetics first. Luckily, we are seeing a shift in consumer demand for helmets that offer more protection. That's good for Kali and the consumer because that means we can develop these new technologies and use new materials to make the most advanced and safest helmets possible.
Kali Protectives I can say that what you guys do does work since I was saved from a bad head concussion, but not a broken neck. One thing I would like to see is a more breathable helmet or convertible helmet.
Would love to see MIPS or this LDL added to baseball catchers & batting helmets and it seems like it would be useful to add as a layer under a pitchers hat to protect a bit against a come-backer.
Ha! Good question. I even have an answer! They open up that park for the local kids to come skate/ride, even during office hours -- those guy were just hanging out :D
haha oh, come on Ryan! :) you see the irony?! Regardless of employee's or not I just thought the scene was funny is all! lol On a serious note, my 7 yr old daughter suffered a terrible concussion this past summer on a skate board going less than 5 miles per hour while kneeling down on the board paddling as it were with her hands along the cement... no helmet. All is well but it was a scary few days with our daughter at the hospital not knowing when she would be back to normal. Very scary, wear your helmet even when you may not think it necessary!!!
If I can't get the irony of kids skating around with no helmets... while surrounded by thousands of helmets, I might have to check myself for a concussion 😂 Glad to hear your daughter is okay! It's crazy how easily head injuries can happen.
My worry is when I'm heading back to car (survival mode) I bonk / heat-stroke on those monster rides, then take that "slow/small"-hit when I know my brain is swelling or cooking in my skull :-0 Nothing sucks worse than when your nutritional uplift wasn't enough for the ride due to harder trail or unexpected weather or HEAT!!!
These are the helmets I was considering, But I have been researching for new bike, so not been looking much on helmets kit.com/mtbboy1993/helmet-consideration-2018 I currently have 2x of Fox Rampage Pro carbon at 1100g for size L it's not the lightest,
POC and a few other companies use EPP in conjunction with EPS in their helmets. EPP does have some rebounding properties. But it does have its limits and we question the use of the term "multi-impact" when referring to the use of EPP in the liner. However, EPP is a moldable material that is softer than EPS, and we are in favor of any company willing to put softer stuff next to the rider's head. But remember, those helmets are still one-and-done helmets that should be replaced after a major impact. Currently, Kali does not use EPP in any helmets. To get super technical on why, we'd have to pull Brad, Kali's owner and lead engineer, into this conversation. However, the Nano Fusion material noted in the video is one of the newest materials we have been playing with. It shows alot of promise in regards to the viability of producing multi-impact capable helmets. Nano is also more efficient at dissipating impact energy in a lower volume (think smaller & lighter) than EPS. As we learn more about how this material performs and how to use it in production, you will see it and LDL in more Kali helmets going forward.
what do the folks at Kali think of Koroyd? I'd love to see you guys replace EPS with something like koroyd in a full face (supposedly... it's better than most EPS for low G impacts, ventilation & might even provide some protection from rotational impacts) :)
Junior - Feeling hot and pulling on hair are two of the most common complaints we hear about MIPS, which are some of the reasons why we chose to develop our own LDL technology.
The thing is without updating the standards, you just have to take the manufacturer's word that their helmet is better, and you can't really compare between brands. I guess you could just add additional standards, but would you want a helmet that only passed the old standards, and not the new ones?
Namewastaken360 - We are not opposed to updating the standards, and we believe they should be updated. But there is so much more we are learning about the brain and how it handles trauma with today's science and technology that it feels a little premature to jump in now and push national governing organizations to draft new regulations. Also, how we impact test helmets should be evaluated and revised. Currently, there is no standard for testing low-g impacts (sub-100 g) and rotational impacts (concussions can occur as low as 74 g when the brain is torqued), which Kali and others believe is where 80% of our impacts and concussions occur. MIPS really pushed the rotational impact testing to the forefront, but it is based on their own testing methods. As an industry, we believe and would like to see helmet companies come together and agree to a rotational and low-g testing standard. If that can happen and we see more protective helmet designs come to market, we can push that protocol up to the goverment regulatory level to amend the current standards. But for now, you are correct that consumers can only rely on what each company claims to be an improved design. That's why Kali maintains a close relationship with academia and scientific testing where the experts of brain trauma are learning more about the brain and how to protect it. You can see a real example of this in the development of our LDL technology and the Shiva 2.0 helmet. We worked closely with Armourgel and their UK-based lab at the Imperial College of London to develop the LDL pad material and shapes, and then tested it in the lab where we saw a massive reduction in g-forces transfered to the brain. www.pinkbike.com/u/KaliProtectives/blog/rotational-concussions-and-ldl.html
The sport is inherently dangerous. I do not need a panel of scientific experts to tell me "smacking your head on the ground is bad M'kay..." I will spend the extra money. Thanks Kali.
I think what Patrick was saying is true, how DH racers are hitting speeds that warrant that kind of protection, but for the regular rider, it would be too stiff.
I was listening to the interview while doing something else but there is such thing as a too stiff helmet. www.pinkbike.com/news/DH-Helmets-vs-Motocross-Helmets-Which-Is-Safer.html
Jerome - We are not saying that, in general, a DOT helmet is safer than an MTB full face. We are saying, pick the right tool for the job. If you are sending it like Jordie Lunn and Nicholi Rogatkin, then you might want to consider a DOT certified helmet due to the higher speeds at which you are traveling. You can watch an overview of our view here: ruclips.net/video/yDe9a0PoU0I/видео.html If you are not Lunn-ing it, our Avatar X helmet is actually a better helmet for normal DH use. It has an even smaller shell volume than our Shiva with softer foam and shell that more easily deforms during an impact. That deformation is a good thing. It's dispersing that impact energy through the shell and foam, and around your head rather than transferring it to your brain. But you are correct that the DOT certification generally results in a helmet with a stiffer shell, harder foam, and heavier overall helmet. That is where our proprietary Composite Fusion technology really presents an advantage. This in-molding tech combined with multi-density conehead shaped foam allows us to provide DOT certified helmet, at a bike size and weight. At the same time, we are able to use lower density EPS and our LDL gel padding to put the softest materials next to your head.
I love your company and what you guys ae doing but some people (not you guys, I know) think that a stiffer helmet is always going to be safer. As you say Choosing the right equipement for the job is the most important.
What do you think? Do we need updated standards? Is it all just marketing fluff? How were my air guitar skills? All important questions.
The Loam Ranger marketing or not i will not hesitate to get the "best" helmet in the market. If i Spend most of my money in beer... 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Well, no one would say that it's not worth it! But ya... beer is pretty important too :D
I would say its not useful. The first thing you do after crashing is pulling the helmet back into position. The thing isnt glued onto you head, it can slide. If you dont have short hair the helmet will slide even more. I dont say MIPS is bad, but I think its not necessary and it might be a marketing thing, becuse the development of helmets has pretty much come to an end when only concidering hard helmets made from polymers.
Hello,
You are correct that a helmet does shift on the rider's head in the event of an impact. However, if the helmet is fitted properly, it should not shift that much. If the rider has to drastically move the helmet back into position following an impact, that tells me 1) that might have been a severe impact, or 2) the helmet may not have been properly fitted and was too loose.
If a helmet is fitted properly, your scalp does already function like a slip plane. Our research shows that our LDL system (like MIPS) expands upon that functionality and allows for even more rotational torque forces to be redirected or dissipated before reaching the rider's head, and reducing the g-forces applied to the brain. All of this is in an effort to engineer a helmet that addresses a wider range and variety of impact forces. The added benefit of LDL and similar soft padding systems like Leatt's 360 Turbine and POC's SPIN is that they provide protection at lower g-forces where EPS is still too hard and does not compress.
You are right that helmet technology and development has been fairly stagnant for decades. But that is due in part to the available molding technologies and materials of the day. We are now able to make much more complex molds that allow us to use a variety of shapes and multiple materials. For example, our motocross Prana helmet utilizes 7 different densities of EPS foam placed strategically throughout the helmet to provide the most protection in the smallest possible package. We are also experimenting with new materials like Nano Fusion which we noted in the video. But this is a slow and expensive process that isn't always justified by consumers who, until recently, generally have been concerned with vent count and aesthetics first. Luckily, we are seeing a shift in consumer demand for helmets that offer more protection. That's good for Kali and the consumer because that means we can develop these new technologies and use new materials to make the most advanced and safest helmets possible.
Kali Protectives I can say that what you guys do does work since I was saved from a bad head concussion, but not a broken neck. One thing I would like to see is a more breathable helmet or convertible helmet.
Nice, I dig it. Glad to see their R&D is working!
Cheers Brian. Ha yup, if Nicholi and Jordie are still kicking, they must be doing something right :D
Standards are standards, if that's the minimum, thank you Kali for surpassing them!! Great vid and great content
Dude, this was a very. -VERY- interesting interview. Thank you for letting the expert guy speak openly. I need more of this.
Good to hear Antoine! Thanks man.
Would love to see MIPS or this LDL added to baseball catchers & batting helmets and it seems like it would be useful to add as a layer under a pitchers hat to protect a bit against a come-backer.
First hard question, why do Kali staff skate at the Kali HQ's without helmets ;) hahaha nice edit dude!
Ha! Good question. I even have an answer! They open up that park for the local kids to come skate/ride, even during office hours -- those guy were just hanging out :D
MTB yumyum bc they signed a disclosure...
haha oh, come on Ryan! :) you see the irony?! Regardless of employee's or not I just thought the scene was funny is all! lol On a serious note, my 7 yr old daughter suffered a terrible concussion this past summer on a skate board going less than 5 miles per hour while kneeling down on the board paddling as it were with her hands along the cement... no helmet. All is well but it was a scary few days with our daughter at the hospital not knowing when she would be back to normal. Very scary, wear your helmet even when you may not think it necessary!!!
skate or die, ride or die.
If I can't get the irony of kids skating around with no helmets... while surrounded by thousands of helmets, I might have to check myself for a concussion 😂 Glad to hear your daughter is okay! It's crazy how easily head injuries can happen.
Came out great dude! Patrick is the man.
Thanks Orbie! Couldn't have done it without you.
Very insightful interview, a few more things to think about before I buy my next helmet.
Good to hear. Thanks man!
love this! stoked on the safety gears!
Very cool and informative, thanks!
Good to hear! Thanks Mark.
nice interveiw im sold lol
I found that down in julian california area there are a lot of good trails. You should go!!
Endless trails in CA!
My worry is when I'm heading back to car (survival mode) I bonk / heat-stroke on those monster rides, then take that "slow/small"-hit when I know my brain is swelling or cooking in my skull :-0
Nothing sucks worse than when your nutritional uplift wasn't enough for the ride due to harder trail or unexpected weather or HEAT!!!
I hear you on that! Once you've burned up all your food, things get sketchy fast.
Also, come visit in Fallbrook ca! Some short but sweet trails
I'll have to check it out. Thanks!
isnt it POC that has a helmet with some compression type material in it instead of foam,and can be used for multiple wrecks?
I thought I remembered hearing something about that at one point. Time to hit da Google 😂
These are the helmets I was considering, But I have been researching for new bike, so not been looking much on helmets kit.com/mtbboy1993/helmet-consideration-2018
I currently have 2x of Fox Rampage Pro carbon at 1100g for size L it's not the lightest,
POC and a few other companies use EPP in conjunction with EPS in their helmets. EPP does have some rebounding properties. But it does have its limits and we question the use of the term "multi-impact" when referring to the use of EPP in the liner. However, EPP is a moldable material that is softer than EPS, and we are in favor of any company willing to put softer stuff next to the rider's head. But remember, those helmets are still one-and-done helmets that should be replaced after a major impact.
Currently, Kali does not use EPP in any helmets. To get super technical on why, we'd have to pull Brad, Kali's owner and lead engineer, into this conversation. However, the Nano Fusion material noted in the video is one of the newest materials we have been playing with. It shows alot of promise in regards to the viability of producing multi-impact capable helmets. Nano is also more efficient at dissipating impact energy in a lower volume (think smaller & lighter) than EPS. As we learn more about how this material performs and how to use it in production, you will see it and LDL in more Kali helmets going forward.
Amazing
Thanks!
You are amazing
what do the folks at Kali think of Koroyd? I'd love to see you guys replace EPS with something like koroyd in a full face (supposedly... it's better than most EPS for low G impacts, ventilation & might even provide some protection from rotational impacts) :)
Ride In Peace!
#RoughAF #LongLiveJordie
It definitely makes my head hotter.
I've never had a helmet with MIPS, but I could definitely see that happening!
Junior - Feeling hot and pulling on hair are two of the most common complaints we hear about MIPS, which are some of the reasons why we chose to develop our own LDL technology.
Watched the entire video and still failed my MIPS Assembly test :(
The thing is without updating the standards, you just have to take the manufacturer's word that their helmet is better, and you can't really compare between brands. I guess you could just add additional standards, but would you want a helmet that only passed the old standards, and not the new ones?
Namewastaken360 - We are not opposed to updating the standards, and we believe they should be updated. But there is so much more we are learning about the brain and how it handles trauma with today's science and technology that it feels a little premature to jump in now and push national governing organizations to draft new regulations.
Also, how we impact test helmets should be evaluated and revised. Currently, there is no standard for testing low-g impacts (sub-100 g) and rotational impacts (concussions can occur as low as 74 g when the brain is torqued), which Kali and others believe is where 80% of our impacts and concussions occur. MIPS really pushed the rotational impact testing to the forefront, but it is based on their own testing methods. As an industry, we believe and would like to see helmet companies come together and agree to a rotational and low-g testing standard. If that can happen and we see more protective helmet designs come to market, we can push that protocol up to the goverment regulatory level to amend the current standards.
But for now, you are correct that consumers can only rely on what each company claims to be an improved design. That's why Kali maintains a close relationship with academia and scientific testing where the experts of brain trauma are learning more about the brain and how to protect it. You can see a real example of this in the development of our LDL technology and the Shiva 2.0 helmet. We worked closely with Armourgel and their UK-based lab at the Imperial College of London to develop the LDL pad material and shapes, and then tested it in the lab where we saw a massive reduction in g-forces transfered to the brain.
www.pinkbike.com/u/KaliProtectives/blog/rotational-concussions-and-ldl.html
So with mips it doesn't give you asuch rotational protection and is a hard plastic? I really want a Kali helmet. But the cost is out of reach for now.
I'm buying one
They're pretty awesome helmets!
The sport is inherently dangerous. I do not need a panel of scientific experts to tell me "smacking your head on the ground is bad M'kay..." I will spend the extra money. Thanks Kali.
DOT standard is not safe for MTB, the foam inside is too stiff, the standard is made for high speed impact.
I think what Patrick was saying is true, how DH racers are hitting speeds that warrant that kind of protection, but for the regular rider, it would be too stiff.
I was listening to the interview while doing something else but there is such thing as a too stiff helmet. www.pinkbike.com/news/DH-Helmets-vs-Motocross-Helmets-Which-Is-Safer.html
Jerome - We are not saying that, in general, a DOT helmet is safer than an MTB full face. We are saying, pick the right tool for the job. If you are sending it like Jordie Lunn and Nicholi Rogatkin, then you might want to consider a DOT certified helmet due to the higher speeds at which you are traveling. You can watch an overview of our view here: ruclips.net/video/yDe9a0PoU0I/видео.html
If you are not Lunn-ing it, our Avatar X helmet is actually a better helmet for normal DH use. It has an even smaller shell volume than our Shiva with softer foam and shell that more easily deforms during an impact. That deformation is a good thing. It's dispersing that impact energy through the shell and foam, and around your head rather than transferring it to your brain.
But you are correct that the DOT certification generally results in a helmet with a stiffer shell, harder foam, and heavier overall helmet. That is where our proprietary Composite Fusion technology really presents an advantage. This in-molding tech combined with multi-density conehead shaped foam allows us to provide DOT certified helmet, at a bike size and weight. At the same time, we are able to use lower density EPS and our LDL gel padding to put the softest materials next to your head.
I love your company and what you guys ae doing but some people (not you guys, I know) think that a stiffer helmet is always going to be safer. As you say Choosing the right equipement for the job is the most important.
35
First comment though