Final Fantasy 8 Analysis (Ep. 1) | State of the Arc Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2024
- In this first episode of our deep-dive into Final Fantasy VIII, we look at the key members of the development staff and the reasoning behind their decisions to mix things up and take FF8 in a very different direction from past entries. We also examine the style of director Yoshinori Kitase and character designer Tetsuya Nomura--this being their first opportunity to do things the way they saw fit without the oversight of Hironobo Sakaguchi. What makes a strong hook? Are the characters convincing? Was the setting relatable and compelling? We answer these questions and more after playing through the opening hours of Final Fantasy 8!
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Time Codes:
1. Introduction To This Analysis Series (0:00)
2. Development History And Developer Influences (2:25)
3. Summary Of What We Played For This Episode (37:59)
4. Discussion On The Game's Style (44:24)
5. Preliminary Thoughts On The Game's Characters (1:15:49)
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Игры
We are bringing our podcast back to the main channel! This new format--where we do multi-episode, long-form analyses of a single game's story--is one that we think will fit among our other content on this channel. We've put a ton of work into this, and hope you'll find a newfound appreciation for the games we'll be looking at!
Y'all are great content makers!
Yeah. This belongs here.
Great to have you back! Love this format
Are you putting it up on sound cloud or anything
@bingly binglerits on their other channel, I think this is a breakdown of all the episodes, I'm havent watched all of it yet, here is episode 1, though ruclips.net/video/cptfaAeCnC0/видео.html
actually this is just episode 1
Who the hell asked for hours upon hours of ff8 story talk? In 2021?
Because thank you. I am so here for this.
Like a good friend or lover, they knew what we needed before we did and we didn't have to ask
Early christmas for me here in 2022 @Chamele7n
2024🤘
Hey RUclips algorithm, this is good shit. Recommend it to more people!
Also, new viewers, in case this doesn't pick your interest... please watch the first ten minutes of pocast number 4 for final fantasy 8. There's a snippet for Seifer that's really worth your time
It did, don't worry.
Nope looks like algo failed again.
@@VICTORZITOSS I listened to that. I was blown away by that nugget. Who knew all these years right?
How do you know it isn't being recommended?
The hooked worked for me, precisely because at the time, no game was as beautiful as FF8. I remember being in awe at it.
On the topic of starting with the Dollet mission, as a somewhat-fan of 8 (but more a fan of 6, 7, and 9) I have to disagree. While I get the argument that the beginning of the game had no hook, for me the scene when you get out of the clinic at the beginning and the camera zooms out from your walk with Quistis to this calm, pastoral, beautiful school full of life and energy gave me a strong emotional attachment to the place, which was a useful anvil that they can hammer me on later. To me the Balamb Garden theme is still a piece of music that evokes strong positive instincts in me, and the various scenes in the school that made it all feel normal ...well, they meant a lot to me as a teenager that didn't feel at home... at home, or anywhere else.
If instead they started with the violence and then came *back* to this beautiful mercenary base that was also a school, I think my first instincts would have been, wow, who are these pretentious jerks living in a beautiful green place while I'm out there bleeding for money, there must be terrible skeletons in the closet here. This coming after FF7 and the ShinRa who are definitely the kind of people who sat back and smoked cigars while people on their payroll died for money, it would be easyto assume that if you started on a bad note here. It would also be easy given Squall's character to assume that he's a bit PTSD after the mission if you don't show that he's more or less the same going into it, especially given the chase at the end where Squall is very nearly either killed or abandoned.
I think the training mission where you obtain Ifrit ahead of the exam does something to establish that the world right outside your door is still dangerous (as with every Final Fantasy, of course), that you are well trained, and that they are dropping you into a situation that they're already quite sure you can handle. Not only did you pass this combat exam just prior, but you were entirely comfortable with that exam, and they must have set the difficulty level of the exam with the mission in mind. So it doesn't feel quite like the cynical, hands-off, go die for our budget meeting style of place that it easily could if the first thing you see of the place is the mercenary side of it.
Does it still need a hook? Yeah, okay, but I kind of like how they seemed to be trying to give us something to defend, not just something to destroy, and the early bits kind of set that up. FF7 got us somewhat attached to Sector 7, but that's kind of a sad thing to be attached to, compared to Balamb which is a happy place.
I see where you're coming from, but the Dollet mission is a defense of Dollet from Galbadia. They aren't mercenaries hired to help an aggressive regime or something, so I wouldn't say it represents "something to destroy". The setup to the Dollet mission, if that were the opening, would establish this context. You are there to repel a hostile takeover, not to destroy anything.
@@ResonantArc
Still, Dollet is not your home, whereas Balamb Garden is. Making Dollet to be the "place to defend" would have complete changed the game, and removed that aspect of having a home, a home to defend, that for Vincent at least, and I imagine to quite a few players playing the game, is crucial to their experience of the game as a whole.
This. I played MGS1 before this and the serene, bright feel of Balamb Garden was such a welcome change after all the dark, dingy and claustrophobic.
I love that he is actually critiquing the story beats and what couldve made it more dramatic instead of "I dont like drawing". FF8 was my first final fantasy, in fact my first RPG. Still my #1.
Hey my first rpg as well.
@@asdfghjkllkjhgfdsa8725 Same here
Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and IX felt like sibling games. They all had pre-rendered backgrounds, they all had Nobou Uematsu's iconic synthisized music, they all had overworlds, they all had airships that you could control, they all had turn based combat, speech bubbles, male lead characters with long hair. They were all three masterpieces, and we've never seen a triple of games from one franchise as magical as those three games. It was an absolute honor to grow up playing those three games with my cousins.
They're my holy trinity lol
100% agree ❤️
I’d knock off 9 and add 6. While 9 did have pre-rendered backgrounds, the whole mood, theme, and linear character advancement, and brighter extroverted main character felt like a completely different series from FF6-8. FF6-8 is often called the Kitase trilogy.
Best era
@@Seekarr Well yeah cause it was made as a return to the first games in the series. And it does that so well. My top 3 in the series after 6 and 4
I know I’m in the minority, but FF8 is my favorite of the series and I’m looking forward to listening to this on iTunes
Same here bro.
It’s my favorite PS1 Final Fantasy game :)
Played and completed every FF except 11 and 8 is my favourite. A very misunderstood game (which does have some flaws)
FF8 is my favorite in the main series not including XI (spent 6 years on that game).
Same here and I would love to see a remake.
The Wilhelm scream in the edited Dollet scene really sells it for me
Was about to comment on that 😂
As soon as I heard it, I paused immediately to find this comment and reply.
Glorious 🥲
FF 8 is my all time favorite. The music is unbelievable.
SAME!
Blue Fields forever
Edea was my first ever waifu before the term was even born.
There, I said it.
Shulk and Reyn analyzing Final Fantasy VIII. I am really feeling it!
Whatta buncha jokuhs!
holy shit
Yo wait....YOOOOOO
It's REYN TIME
I love Xenoblade!!!!
My cousin made me discover FF7... that led me to renting FF8 by myself thus creating a special nostalgic place for this game...
The demo got me hooked and the first part of the game i was all in with the waring gardens etc after that it started to lose me. Still havent finished it maybe 1 day
‘Renting’ a game at a video store gives me a sense of nostalgia in itself!!
@@DaytimeOperator facts! Every game felt long because two days was never enough to finish it...
It's a love hate relationship for me.
Enjoyable discussion. I feel you missed a beat on an early narrative of character growth through failure. On the topic of Quistis being an instructor and it's believably, she was SeeD at 15, and became an instructor at 18 (the youngest ever). When I played this as a kid in '99, I thought that was weird too. Now, as an adult having lived some life, I appreciate the narrative when she loses her license and vents to Squall. She was an exceptional student, to graduate at the earliest possible age. An exceptional member of SeeD, to become an instructor at 18. Then within her first year, fails as an instructor. Was it a lack of maturity, experience, or another quality? I think the narrative that failing despite exceptionalism and coming to terms with it is something that is underappreciated until it's experienced. It's a reminder that even the best are fallible, and failure is part of life, growth, and human existence.
About the intro: I think what you overseen about that it FF8 is more of the product of the time than any previous FF game. Because around that time the youth, and probable in the creators' youth music videos were the biggest things. And that intro cinematic is in fact (or was) a really good hook at that time when everybody was fascinated with music videos, music channels etc. I think the idea of that the whole game is like a meditation or afterthought about what can happen after a music video or what kind of a world can that be was in the mind of young minds. Personally it was in mine. I was 13-14 at that time, and it hit me directly. Many of us was fantasizing about different music videos stories, backgrounds, and what ifs ... so I think it is appropriate to appreciate or at least appraise the whole thing from this angle.
I so much agree with you. For my 17-18 year old brain the intro was like Neuromancer level of its imaginery. I think people ore different. I never needed intro to made sense. It was like a visual poem on steroids ;)
Ff8 came out during a time in my life where I was able to actually identify with squall. Ppl joke around him being emo or whatever but I identified with his lack of care and annoyance towards others... and how over the adventure he builds a bond with them and at the end smiles. The melancholy and dreary feel of the game really was something out of left field that I really loved and I am still fond of this black sheep to this day.
Now I am definitely a happy person who loves others and grew out of that phase but at the time it hit a spot that was just perfect for me.
FF8 is my favorite among the series. It's also the first FF game that I finished. This just makes me want to play it again!
FF6 is far better check it out ;)
I haven't finished it yet.. Definitely enjoy it though.
@@mikedobs8719 I feel like that’s quite a rude statement to make, why do you feel the need to demerit someone’s opinion on a game?
I’ve completed every main line FF apart from the MMO’s and I would say that I also enjoyed 8 over 6
@@bennieboi20 6 is the best
@@mikedobs8719 and that is your opinion, so like I said don’t devalue someone else’s opinions just to push your own
One thing to note with the opening scene is that it was fucking impressive at the time. As a shithead 10 years old I was fucking blown away, even when I didn't understand anything. On top of that, seeing Squall, Seifer, and everything else in that style sets up your brain to fill in the gaps in realism when the actual gameplay starts.
Don't forget that back then, when processing power couldn't produce realistic graphics, our brains had to fill in the gaps. Having an example really helps to give cohesion to the whole package.
Algorithms need to pick this up. These guys are amazing. I’m a patreon member for a reason!
Algorithms heard your call and brought me here :D
@@fearlesstp hell yea! If you love deep discussion on FF or just RPG’s in general, these guys are a fantastic choice. Welcome!
@@maddux1188 9th
Finally, a freaking podcast that isn't just a fixed picture, or two talking heads. This is good stuff :O
Technically podcasts are audio files. What we now seem to call podcasts are just talk shows, and those have been around for years.
I mean the podcast is literally two people talking
Final Fantasy VIII is one of those rare games where you miss a LOT of the game the first or even second time you play it. That third play through where you see how closely everything ties together is what makes it my favorite FF
Doesnt make it good. Lol.
@@Gomezli16 yes it does. An intelligent system and story is always better than a dumb one. FF13 and 15 are plenty of proof of that.
@@nathank2289 you compared it to two other shitty FF's LOL
@@Gomezli16 That's the point? You sound confused.
@@nathank2289 ok but two wrongs don’t make a right lol
This is so bizarre. This video is coming about within a few days of me, on a whim, deciding to replay FFVIII for the first time in over 20 years.
Same
Just played through it on PS5 and really happy RUclips recommending this to me
@@dbgaming274 me too I’m playing thru it again on ps5
So happy that I'm not the only one who loves pre-rendered backgrounds! I'm actually working on an indie game with that kind of system and it has been really interesting to find out that there is a lot more than you would think that goes into it.
Have you played the Boku no Natsuyasumi series? The pre-rendered backgrounds are gorgeous.
@@jorgesaito461 For sure it's a game a really want to play. Pretty much any game from Millennium Kitchen Including the new Shin Chan game. It's just hard to get a hold of due to most of them being in Japanese or on PSP which I don't have.
With that said. Boku no Natsuyasumi is definitely beautiful and one of the titles that we are pulling from visually. So hopefully it will come though when our indie game comes out.
@@redalchemy7322 There are some videos on RUclips with Boku no Natsuyasumi for PS3 translated to English. You should take a look.
Good luck on your game project. By the way, maybe you can answer me about a doubt I always had. Some games cost millions of dollar to be made. I always wondered why it costs so much.
@@jorgesaito461 For sure I'll take a look, and thank you for the well wishes on the project.
As for the budget aspect. The short answer is that it's a deceptively cumulative. Cost is often multiplied by time, number of employees, and resources.
For example a small mobile or indie game that takes 5 people one year will cost the yearly salary of five people for one year. If they all earn 60k then 60k x 5 = 300k. That is just a small game and that does not even calculate things like software used, rent for the company, licensing etc.
If you do something really intensive like a AAA title or an RPG it could take over a hundred people multiple years to finish. Millions of dollars gets funneled though and it's also why things get cut in games. Things go unfinished because they go over budget or some issue arises causing more time to be spent on something that on paper was easier than in practice.
Now there are some ways to cut costs, like buying ready made assets, stock sounds, etc. and some indie developers only make games as a side job. But, making a game is a huge investment and the costs can get deep, it just depends on how long it takes and how many people are working on it.
@@redalchemy7322 Now I understand a little of what involves the making of a game. Thank you.
Where and what did you study to make a game? I wonder if a game development couse teaches the importance of story telling, character development etc and not only focus on the technical aspect of a game. Most games nowadays are ultra realistic and shallow in my opinion.
I also think it may be difficult to balance of what sells and the "integrity" of a creative piece of work.
Have you played Mother 3? I think it's more than a game, it's a life experience. I wish more games like that were produced nowadays.
Don't like to put liberi fatali over "The landing". The music is a vital part of (the) storytelling, and giving clues of what's to come, and what to expect of whom. Liberi fatali tells another story than the one being shown during the landing.
Edit: Ah, ok you'll address it later. Looking forwards to it!
That Dollet mission edit with the opening theme was legit!
The rhythm was a little off, and the dynamics didn't quite line up - if it were being done for real, they'd either rescore the song or redo the cutscene to match better. It's a good proof-of-concept, but not a polished end-product.
Well you said so yourself, in ff8 the team was trying so hard to make the game different. It makes sense the intro was very different compared to others, it just comes with criticism because that was the first time doing the intro that way.
IMO I like it. That sense of mystery what’s about to come in the game really hooks me. As you said it’s a trailer and an intro at the same time. Another game that did this was “Zone of the Enders the 2nd runner”
I agree that the intro FMV scene turning out to be just training can be disappointing as a spectator but I always thought thats the vibe Squall and Cifer felt internally, because for them its not just practice. They both marked their faces with a scar that said (at least to me): "we are not done yet.". So I say the song fits because their personal rivalry was established.
Yes, this. The dollet mission just isn't as dramatic as the rivalry.
Preach, i would however would have love to see more of fight instead of "future" imagery. Still tho.
@@compoundsandelements Yeah, the dollet mission is unrelated to the core drama of the characters. Makes no sense to me to start with that.
Yeah, I don't think FFVIII would have benefited from a big action set piece opening. Hell, I don't think it really works in FFVII either.
I mean the story revolves around them and their "Queens" ffs... it's one of the underpinnings of the story and it's about the only thing they didn't feel like slow rolling out. Kinda feel like if you don't get that that I might not wanna listen to you to talk about the story. It's not that deep so if you can't wade into that stream... idfk. This is the first discussion I've listened between these two and I'm already feeling like noping out.
and growing up in the mid 90's, i was in a generation where you were looking for a place in the world. I was always the person asking myself, what can i give this world, something that it never asked from me but something i know the world needs. im 31yrs old and married now, but im still having the same question for myself. playng ff8 during those years really made me feel like i am squall leonhart. he never asked to be the hero, but he was thrust into that life. I always wanted that for myself. Just like what they said, no one can be a hero in your life, but yourself
Final Fantasy 8 is a romance story that literally transcends space and time.
So does your IQ
FFVIII's opening was one of the best and most memorable in gaming history. It may be because I'm not familiar with narrative theory, hooks, etc. but it worked very well for getting me hyped and into the story, even if I didn't understand it at the time. I can agree FFVII's was done better, but with less spectacle... to me they are so close to each other. I too loved the character personality and interactions. Interesting to hear about the humor connection with FFV, as that was another unexpected favorite of mine.
Also wanted to add how much I appreciate the care taken to avoid spoilers (although one of the dev quotes inadvertently gave a huge spoiler for ANOTHER game)... but the fact that you care and work at it is awesome. So many other channels seem to just plow right through them and have lessened the imact of several games for me. Spoilers - no matter how old the games are - ought to be hyperbolically criminalized.
The comments in the beginning.
'Ill be waiting here..."
Does matter and is relevant. Squall is sleeping and remembering something that hasn't happened yet. It's a dream and the 'time compression'. Something similar to what happens with Laguna.
Maybe I'm reading into it to much. It's the impression I have from playing the game. Especially after completing it and seeing the game restart.
And Ele is there! Which might have triggered those dreams. I like your theory
@@s.l.r.9407 That's true. She has the mysterious sorceress powers that allow for time compression.
Nah you're right. That was the point. A lot of small details get drowned out in 40 hours of gameplay and another 20 of Cards. Again the story isn't exactly deep so the boys here not getting it after researching it just feels like how I feel about most of these types of podcasts/videos.
I looooove FF8. Can't wait to check this out.
I am one of those people who discovered Final Fantasy in the very early 00s. I was lent a copy of 7 and 8 together and was just kind of getting into PSX gaming (Very late as the PS2 was either out or about to be out).
I think I played VII for about an hour or two and it didn't hook me, I just wasn't interested in it's aesthetic, I didn't really understand or care what was going on, I was not feeling it. So I loaded up VIII after that and from the moment that CG cutscene played out I was in all the way.
So the game starts and you're just kind of eased into things, I think the fact VII starts off with a mission that locks you in for some time was part of why I wasn't interested. VIII lets you wander the school, talk to students, play Triple Triad and just sort of fuck around until you go get Ifrit, I loved that pacing. I didn't need action to hook me in, I just wanted to take my time getting to know the world and be kind of absorbed in the setting before being thrown into the action, I liked the lazy school life vibes you get initially.
VIII to this day is still my favorite setting for a Final Fantasy game by a million miles, followed by XIV (and also XVI I suspect). I liked the way XV's world looked too but nothing about that game resonated with me otherwise.
I still can't fully articulate why VIII in all it's strange and jank glory is so compelling to me even now among other Final Fantasy games, it just is.
I'm so glad RUclips decided to recommend this to me. I was supposed to be doing something else but now I'm really into discussion and I cannot leave, lol.
55:07 WOW that Liberti fatali works so WELL in that dollet mission start
Its been a while since I've played; was that scene cut to fit the music by the Podcaster, or are those shots ripped right from the game?
@@Disc0_Hipp0 if you watched the podcast he says right before this is "HIS" cut. so the music was cut to fit the scene. the scene was unaltered. the music was added into it.
@@pyguy7 my bad, I must have missed him saying that.
I initially agreed. But you can’t beat the adrenaline dump they went with. It has visuals, music & sets the game’s intrigue, who is Rinoa, who is the Sorceress & why are they, perhaps, fighting over them?
The game would have felt too militaristic if they started with Dollet.
@@vulcanworf7422 I don't disagree it would have felt more militaristic. I DO disagree that would be a bad thing. Starting the game with a big pounding mission is always a good way to start a story. As he was discussing, it makes for an excellent hook. Several other games do this, many many movies do this, books do this. It's just an excellent story telling technique and the game would have been better for it if it started with an exciting mission like Dollet and then provided clarification and exposition afterwards.
And as for the whole militaristic aspect.. have you PLAYED FFVIII!? the entire game has a heavy military theme going throughout it. That's like it's main motif.
I really miss the pre-rendered backgrounds too. Navigating through them is sometimes difficult, at least in other games of the series but I can't wait for Hironobu Sakaguchi's mobile game Fantasian that uses dioramas for the backgrounds... Even for being a mobile game, it looks like it could be beautiful and incredibly immersive with these detailed backdrops.
Dropping by just to say I love what you do here. Thank you very much. The cut you had with Liberi Fatali over the Dolet Mission intro is actually exactly what I had envisioned when you were talking about it. It's incredible to think about. Great job.
FF8 is my fave game of all time ~ idc what anyone else says, it's a masterpiece and one of the best jrpgs ever created ❤
Mine too! It’s a masterpiece:) even got Edea tattooed on my arm! You, Sir, have very good taste!
Agreed 💯
Downvoted
but your pic is Cloud lol
@@Inkthroat fcking awesome !! 😍❤
Haven't watched the whole video yet, but just want to say I appreciate all the work and thought you put into your videos. Keep up the good work!
Resonant Arc is the channel with the deepest thoughts about RPG games... I love their work. And by the way, I also loved how they just kept silent when FFVII Remake (Re-imagined) was released.
@@juancarlosrodriguez5022 yep, he is putting a lot a thought into it. He does not jump to it the first chance he gets. Thats why I love his analysis videos.
OMG This is the content I never knew I needed! Cannot wait for more episodes! Thanks so much!
25:14
I personally think a chibi art style works better for 2D sprite based games. This is why I think the character designs in FF9 are kind of hit-or-miss. I think what looks good as a flat 2D drawing doesn’t always translate well into 3D. That’s just me, though. Lots of people like the visuals in that game, and more power to them.
I can agree with this to some degree. It might have been even worse for FF9 if it was high quality 2D but I think it would have been great.
The art style for VI kills a lot of the drama. Certainly makes Cid's end less interesting since he looks like he's in an Oscar Meyer Wiener costume. Hard to give a shit about that. I did care due to how Celese responds but it was still more humorous with the way he looked.
There's a reaon VII broke out while having a more rudimentary story than VI and it was a lot to do with visuals and some to do with marketing. Doubling down on the visuals was the right thing to do. There's a lot this team gets wrong years later but realistic proportions wasn't one
It’s so mind blowing to see how much has changed and how much is still keeping strong. I’m glad to see this. Been around since when the Wariasky FF videos were dropping.
Although I remember seeing ads for Final Fantasy 7 around, I started with Final Fantasy 8 and I loved it. It holds a special place for me. 9 was fun but 10 is the one that really got me. Best game ever! I can't wait until your analysis on it.
Oh my God I'm absolutely astonished at the quality of this podcast and analysis thank you so much! As someone that finds it a struggle to relax after work etc I really appreciate being able to fall into your world and see and hear your perspectives on these beautiful games. Thank you.
I really like this format. Doing a whole podcast dissecting individual games each episode is a great idea. I also think you bring up a lot of great points about my problems with 8 while also highlighting the unique elements of it that I think are very cool.
It always blows my mind how much this channel has evolved and changed and become so good. Keep it up guys. You're awesome. LOVE FFVIII
I gotta say that due to this upload I ended up watching this again. Despite our differences of opinion there was still so much interesting info here to digest and think about. I was surprised that I enjoyed watching this through a second time. I'm getting the sense that I need to watch each of these at least two times so my emotions don't cloud my judgement as much.
Basically an amalgamation of choice analysis mixed w/ general (casual) analysis, opinions, and judging of rhetoric, while throwing in some insider investigation on the game-making process really makes this interesting. Great work, hope this becomes a series.
For me the hook was actually the opening cinematic. As a kid I was so interested in finding out what it all was. But I agree, it is weaker than the others mentioned.
Also, I feel the opening, could be seen as a 2 part with the ending. Don't want to spoiler in here tough. But to me it is a great re-opening of sorts.
The big problem with starting off a story with a bang, a la Tarantino, is that you then stifle the entire first act of the story; as now it is boring compared to the climactic opening. You essentially hamstring yourself, because instead of continuing that emotional climb into the rest of act two, you have to hit the brakes on the story to begin again.
FFVIII is my fave Final Fantasy despite how messy/radical it was. I am loving the analysis of the story by you both and the history around the production. Can't wait for more!
one of my favorite FF games and games of all time. ff8 surprisingly lacking youtube content analyzing it (obviously due to it being not so liked in the west) so was really excited to see this from yall. keep up the great work guys :D
This was my first final fantasy and will always have a special place in my heart. Love the video and looking forward to more!
Here we go again, this podcast is really really good, loved the analysis and the "no spoiler" approach.
I played along and now i appreciate ff8 a lot more!
I rented this game at first. The disc was scratched and wouldn't play PAST IFRIT, but I was SO HOOKED I replayed the beginning once and again because I just loved the setting (and Squall is much more interesting in the Spanish version). My father took pity of me and ended up buying it.
It is my favourite game of all time just for the immersion, music and aesthetic, the little secrets peppered throughout the game, the impressive lore you have to actually work to make sense of, and the characters.
When I was a teen, I thought the characters were cool and mature. When I got older, I realized they're just kids, with kid's feelings and struggles in a world that forced them to be soldiers and leaders, and to risk their lives for things that they didn't completely understand because they were lied to.
Tbh the English version of the game destroyed Squall and Rinoa by making them a jerk and a (uh) a childish girl. The Spanish version (and other languages) follow the japanese more closely, and their true personality shines through (I've played the game in several languages). It's no doubt why people don't like the game as much in English-speaking countries, since the key characters are annoying in their version... such a pity. The game needs a remake!
(Edit for spelling)
Damn it, I almost thought the last FF8 discussion got uploaded early or something lol.
Still punched the like button cuz more people should watch/hear these kinds of analyses.
I actually just started listening to this analysis on my commute to work this morning! Looking forward to catching up on the later parts.
There's a lot interesting things I didn't know in this. Things like the demo being the Dollet mission gives some indication they must have considered it to be an important hook. Thank you for making this, looking forward to watching the rest of the series!
Continue doing what you doing man! Thanks for your videos!
I think it’s important to discuss these games while referring to the game booklet that comes with the disc. It was common practice back then for long games like these, just like you did in music albums, to have a little booklet of information.
A lot of the qualms brought up about missing background info was simply present in the game booklet that, back then, would have come with every copy of the game in the case and hopefully provided context for new players.
Check it out - there’s scans uploaded online that can help reframe these discussions!
I don't think it needed a "hook." I just liked running around the entire garden checking shit out and talking to everyone or playing cards with the card players, grinding in the training center before Ifrit. I just liked to wander around in this game when it would allow me. I dug the chiller start it gave me some choices on what I wanted to do first which kind of made the game feel bigger. I used to walk around talking to all the NPC's after events and going as far back as I could seeing if any dialog had changed or if a new side quest opened up.
YEEESSSSSS! I remember you said you'd be deep diving into the final fantasy games again, and I've been waiting! Lets go!
FF8 is my alltime favorite 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I can't believe it took me this long to realize Squall was modeled on Tom Cruise...
Yeah he kinda resembles a young Tom Cruise.
Iirc Tetsuya Nomura modeled Squall on the late River Phoenix
WHAT. Wow, I see it now.
And Gackt.
River Phoenix not Cruise
Another good video. You dish out top notch content man, between whats on the screen, the audio from your mic, and the actual content you discuss. I started watching you back when the channel was just about brand spanking new, I wish you had some more exposure, because you deserve many more subs and attention than what you have. Keep pumping man, you have an audience either way!
I haven't even watched it yet, but thumbs up right from the start. You've put so much work into this. I just want to play this game all over again. And that's not even my favorite FF. Glad to have you back on the main channel, guys !
The thing is, I feel like the dramatics of the opening would have dulled unless they left the school setting. Like, hey that battle you just did?! With the machine guns and to robots and the snake. It was your graduation exam. I kind of prefer the opening because it sets the rivalry of Squall and seifer in focus in the beginning. The sword falling out the sky was it being knocked out of squalls hand from a grounds eye view and he picks it up and continues even though he probably should lost. It's what lends credence to that's what took it too far.
I really enjoyed this episode. FF8 wasn't a masterpiece imo, but it was something special and unique and I feel like you guys hit the points that made it unique
The entire preamble of how Final Fantasy titles were produced / directed up through FFIX clearly proposes as to why I prefer the Sakaguchi heir of titles over anything else, and further illustrates as to why I have the issues with FFVIII that I've always had. . . Really good information.
Awesome so glad I found your channel. I will look forward to listening/watching this more in the future. Great idea for a series. This game in particular has a very in depth story and definitely quantifies the analysis.
I suspect that making a big, epic deal out of a morning training session was a twist to give players the idea that, if something as mundane as a morning training session can be this epic then it'll be unbelievable when stuff actually _does_ happen. Just maybe.
FF8 is the closest Squaresoft ever came to making a slice-of-life anime, and I kind of love it for that.
55:07 OMG That is super duper ultra very awesome!!! So intense, so epic!! And we know here is our main character. And he's on some super important war/mission. Wow, you're so talented & hardworking & has good intuition.. thanks so much for this epicness..
This guy is amazing,I’m yelling at my screen and he went back and already had an answer, I love it
Concerning the opening scene: I think the three questions with their huh? replies are supposed to give you a feeling of being lost or of someone who will lose his way. And I think the vast fields, associative landscapes and people blending in and out give the thing a rather dreamlike vibe. Same with the feather rising from Rinoas hand turning into the flash of lightning that the gunblade erupts from. It's not like I got that when I was 12 years old, but that would make the problem less one of storytelling per se but rather one of someone with a penchant for art movies construing a movie sequence for an audience mostly unaware that such things exist. But what I got rather immediately even when playing the first time was that one of the - if not the one big - theme(s) in the game would be the rivalry between Zeifer and Squall. And I think one reason they started the story in the Garden environment is to give the two of you more exposition to each other, while you can't actually do anything against him. To give you a chance to hate him with your guts without having some reluctant respect for him because he's competent.
That being said I'd agree that this is neither an all too compelling theme nor one awe-inspiringly implemented.
P.S.: who says anything against repetition? They just employed about 10 seconds of the opening to convey the text and as irritating, confusing and unfortunately forgettable as these 6 lines are, imagine how much less you would remember if they would use more varying sentences. Besides, repetition is quite regularly in poetry (or was, I've no idea what contemporary poetry is like) which is if nothing else a vastly contracted form of presenting a text. And finally, in the few short texts I've read so far in Japanese repetition is more or less ubiquitous. Just as the final words "i promise" (約束) show - at least from what I've seen in Anime and Games - in Japanese quite a heavy bond between the two persons talking - like a last resort cliché sort of thing to get the point across really heavy handed.
But enough nagging, that was a really cool analysis.
Edit: It's called Final FANTASY and you can easily imagine gunblades, summoned and bound magical beasts but not someone becoming a teacher without a three year internship?! :-D
Edit2: Concerning the tutorial and the additional answers in the menu: They really got that school setting across by starting the game with a reading assignment.
Edit3: The gunblade doesn't fire bullets? whut? Where is this mentioned? And why do all of the designs have a revolving chamber if it doesnt? (the latter might be a rather difficult question, I admit)
A lot of hack creative writers knock repetition because they don’t know how to properly utilize it.
FF8 was my fav in the series. I started playing and really getting into FF with FF2 on SNES way back in the early 90s.
So nice to hear long time fans loving FF8, it gets a lot of hate usually 😅
found you guys a couple of months ago and been making my way through all the podcasts but this was the first episode i saw and when i need a good lazy listen to this episode/ the ff8 playlist i always come back to
Man, this is so good! Please do more of this type of video, great job!
I always thought Seed sounded like a cool idea, and thought I’d enjoy it way more than my schooling.
Now as an adult I look back and see that it is really quite sinister. Child Soldiers for hire.
Great game. Great story/themes.
All three PS1 Final Fantasies have ethical questions surrounding their protagonists. Terrorists in VII, child soldiers in VIII, thieves and scam artists in IX. I like that it's not as simple as good guys and bad guys.
@@FlintlockYT same. Well put!
Great video. I think when it comes to the weapons you really do have to look past how silly they are.
You have to remember Rinoa can use her dog as a rocket launcher.
[ANGELO CANNON] x'D
Thank you so much, Mike and Caysen! Great stuff. I've discovered this channel and binge-watched this podcast series over the last 3 days and oh, god, you guys are so good. Thorough, brilliant, analytical and human.
I feel like I can tell a lot about your personalities from the things each of you choose to focus on. It added a further layer of entertainment for me.
This is the perfect game for this format because Final Fantasy VIII is a better experience if you don't do it alone. It's even the game's theme.
The opening scene and its musical track, Liberi Fatali, are what I want to talk about. I have been playing Final Fantasy games forever and FF8 was my first so, of course, I love it. Although I found your comments about the opening cutscene very interesting, please consider this shift of focus: Liberi Fatali is, in and of itself, such an experience.
I bring this up because you've explained you tend to analyze from a first playthrough point of view. In short, my point is: what you are hearing in the opening is epic and impactful to an extent where I don't believe you have attention for much more; therefore the opening won't work as the means to deliver much information. It needs what it has: something pleasing, flashy and emotional; something establishing Squall is a fated warrior; something establishing a romantic interest and much more secondarily, establishing the diegetic 'Squall was hurt'. Mostly anything to instigate emotion and a minimum of curiosity. FF7 had much less and the intro doesn't feel bad at all.
I know you were talking about the need for a hook from a narrative perspective but I'll try to convince you to think more about the experience.
I am a professional musician and since the beggining of watching this I was hoping that you'd go to greater lengths about the music. This game is known for it and I find it relevant to the context that Nobuo Uematsu has always been a great asset for the franchise. In 1998 Squaresoft was undergoing some changes, as you explained. They rushed this game to take advantage of FF7's success and we know this led to some problems, but this man specifically rose to the occasion and delivered his best soundtrack.
FF8 music works, particularly Liberi Fatali. It shows awareness of the style and tone of the story. It's saving the day by getting you in an emotionally volatile state. Wouldn't you agree that, if this game didn't instruct you early on to react emotionally to events, the story wouldn't quite land? On the 'feels over reels' criticism towards this game I undoubtedly have to stand with you but please let us note that the feels are amazingly reinforced by the soundtrack. By how many would we multiply this fact accounting for Liberi Fatali virginity the first time you boot up this game?
Firstly, it features a full orchestra plus a choir singing in Latin. This is a 1999 PlayStation game. It is an impactful choice. It must have taken up a good portion of Disc 1. This music is important. The FMV is designed to attach to the preexisting music and not the other way around, which is easily seen as Rinoa pops up synced to the tempo several times. Nomura probably wanted to match with something equally impressive. He was more focused on what he wanted to depict (zooming out of the ocean, waves, feathers, petals and such were his 'selfish requests) than on clever and/or satisfying links with plot milestones.
(Read here: shmuplations.com/ff8/).
On a later episode you propose some tweaks for the opening sequence which I agree with, but the Dollet landing with Liberi Fatali is not a good match. That scene has its own amazing track: The Landing, which fits better since it's more rhytmically driven and has a recognizable 'mission/battle' feel to it with the 6/8 time signature, the drums and synth stabs, et cetera.
Each piece of music has protagonism within its scene, it's clear to me that many moments of this game are directed this way. The Landing would make no sense as an opening piece so just for that reason I wouldn't start the game there on the Dollet mission. And Liberi Fatali is well matched with the kind of visuals they went for. A bit more of connection with later scenes could have been squeezed in but you still want the player focused on the music and the emotion so... don't make them think too much or see too many faces.
Interestingly enough, Liberi Fatali is the first instance of many melodies and musical elements that appear later in the game in new tracks. There's a strong connection between some of the most memorable pieces which has to be set up leading with the one you are going to be impacted by the most so that later you can, to some degree, feel cohesion.
Lastly, the lyrics. The repeated 'Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec' is an anagram of the terms 'Succession Of Witches' and 'Love'. Although in Latin, the game is telling us even more through the lyrics: "Wake up from your dreams / Your childhood years are gone / [...] Your slumber is over". The visuals need to be in tune with this dream idea, with this waking up. As this piece comes to an end, Squall will actually wake up.
(You can read about some of the stuff I mentioned here: finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Liberi_Fatali).
Some of these layers of composition are hidden to a new player watching the cutscene. But, as we know, Kitase/Nomura games have a focus on replayability and raising to another level with a bit of help by the community. It's their choice and I wouldn't say it detracts any value from the games.
In conclusion, in most good games but particularly in FF8, music is deeply connected to the experience of each scene in a variety of ways and... wasn't the need for connection the central theme of this story? Isn't this type of game one more thing in life where you won't go as far if you go alone?
Peace!
FF8 intro is so iconic and in my opinion not only the best in the series, but the best intro to a game ever made. You can write an entire thesis on the foreshadowing and imagery alone. I feel the reason why it's so decisive is because without having any context of the story it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Which is the beauty about it. The directors have already established a loyal fanbase and they understood that the FF series was about the graphics and artistic vision. They wanted you to trust them. So they offered you the beautiful fanfare of a intro where they encapsulated the idea, vision, and direction they were going to go. It was a statement saying this is going to be different. This is the direction and tone we are setting. Now trust us and enjoy the ride. The story and vision were slightly ahead of it's time in that the complex style of strory telling really needed voice acting to be truly effective.
Yeah, I remember 3D was a really big deal at that time. FF7 looked like Lego. Then, the first time i saw FF8 at that time, just wow... Imagine that you live in a world where 3D looks like lego.. then suddenly FF8 came. so beautiful!!
Would be cool if the game started with the Dollet mission, then you went through some gameplay and battles, BRIEFLY introduced Squall and Seifer, either have a version of Liberi Fatali without lyrics or some other track in the background, and at the end things get heated, maybe Seifer wants to apply a tactic that will risk civilians and Squall disobeys, then Liberi Fatali comes back and they fight, mid battle it turns into the CG duel and rest of the cinematic, keep the whole thing around 20 min. That would create a good hook, enhance the rivalry aspect and keep the intrigue of the intro.
Yes! I say this all the time! It would have created so much more momentum.
I guess they didn’t want to do an intro similar to ff7. They wanted to start off as a simple “humble beginnings” sort of speak. I do like your approach though. But I think they didn’t want to have the same hook as ff7 if that makes sense.
FF8 was my first RPG of any kind. The ending of Disc 1 was probably the moment that hooked me on the genre for the rest of my life. Looking back now, I can appreciate the bold experiment that the game was, both in its hits and misses. I always respect risktaking, especially after a major success.
Never been SOOO HAPPY to have found the kind of FF8 deep dive video I've been looking for! And it's a 5-parter??
Yaaas! ❤ I'm in.. this game was whole 'pre-teenhood" :p
Y'all are awesome-thank u 😊
I haven't watched the whole video yet, so maybe this is brought up later, but regarding the sales of FFVIII vs FFIX, I think it's important to mention the very different contexts in which those two games were announced and subsequently released. FFVIII followed right after FFVII (the most popular and successful game in the series) when the PS1 was at the height of its popularity. Meanwhile, FFIX was announced simultaneously with both FFX and FFXI, with the latter two being PS2 titles already. As such, I feel FFIX was kind of doomed from the start to underwhelm in sales compared to FFVIII, regardless of its style, since it was announced and released for a console that was already dying, with FFX and FFXI (to be released for the new generation console PS2) being inevitably seen as the real future of the series. For those reasons, I think it's fair to say that, even if FFIX had followed the ultra-realism style as well, it probably still wouldn't have been able to match FFVIII in sales.
Everything you're saying here is correct, and if business executives had half the sense you do, it would be obvious why FF8 sold so much better than FF9. However, we're talking about Yoichi Wada and a board of investors here.
@SonofYevon I'm not really sure what point you're making, because the circumstances of FF7R's release aren't really comparable. Also, FF7R did not sell as well at launch as FF15, for example. Aside from this, FF7R was a remake of one of the most popular video games ever created that was hyped beyond belief for years and had been requested by fans for decades. It also wasn't released during a time when people were already aware of the NEXT FF installment. FF16 wasn't announced until after FF7R was released. When FF9 came out, some people were already looking toward FF10, especially those who liked the graphical style and sci-fi elements of FF7 and FF8 and didn't like the chibi, deformed characters of FF9.
In other words, you aren't considering the differences between the circumstances of these game launches. There are many.
Wow, see I didn't know that 10 and 11 had both been announced already. I was a teenager when nine came out, actually 18 I think, and I remember it feeling incredibly late in the PlayStation's life. That console had already been around for so many years, this definitely felt like the last big game released for it to me. When it came out, I never bought it because I actually was super turned off by the chibi art style, I was much more on board with 7 and 8's character designs, and when I played it later, I constantly run into what feel like fairness issues in the battles.
I have tweets a couple of years old now talking about playing ff9 on Android and running into a situation that was just absolutely unfair with the way turn based battles should work in Final Fantasy games. Like, I had a full party of characters and I ran into a random battle in the world map, it was two spider enemies. They attacked and killed one of my characters, probably Dagger. On the next character's turn, I used a Phoenix Down on her, and on the character's turn after that I used a high potion or Cura or something to bring her back to full health; but, immediately after the Phoenix Down went off, one of the enemies targeted her with an attack and killed her again, making the Cura useless. But the way the timing worked out, that shouldn't have been possible; when that enemy selected its attack, she wasn't a viable target, she was still downed, and it felt like the game cheated in order to produce more difficulty.
That happens all the time to me playing Final Fantasy 9. And it feels very much like artificial difficulty, like somebody putting their thumb on the scale instead of designing a game that is naturally more difficult. And I have had that issue every time I've tried to play nine, and I haven't had it in any Final Fantasy game before or since.
Iono, i could relate to FF8 and its music and story. I played FF7 and 4 and 6 before but I love how 8 grabbed me and kept me attached the entire story. I disagree the beginning hooked me cause i wanted to know what all this meant. Not sure... how you don't get hooked by something that gets explained after?
I recently finished the game, and dealing with the withdrawal by listening to these episodes. I was listening while driving when that part about overlaying Liberi Fatali to the Dollet Mission cutscene came up, and I was like "Nooo, I want to see!"
Great stuff - thank you so much for doing this!
FF8 hit on all of my childhood fantasies.
Battle school
Cute girl
Hot teacher
Cool emo main character
The FF8 world felt so much more fascinating and related to me as a kid compared to FF6 or FF7 which were the only JRPGs i played before FF8.
WOW! The concept of having a strong hook from the beginning makes so much sense with FF4-7. You are absolutely right that the Dollet mission would've been a great starting point for the game and that demo cinematic shows it!
Really enjoyed this podcast, can't wait to watch the others. I would like your thoughts on the following: There is one thing I was thinking about when comparing FFIX and FFVIII. The PS2 was released in NA on Oct 26, 2000 and FFIX was released in NA on Nov 13, 2000. In Japan, FFIX came out 3 months after the PS2 came out. Also, FFVIII was riding the coat tails of FFVII so the hype was real. So I think the success of FFVII bolstered the sales of FFVIII and I believe the late release of FFIX hurt its sales. I don't disagree with the overall sentiments expressed comparing Hironobu Sakaguchi's vision of FF versus the evolving vision of the other developers who were working on FFVIII. However, I feel its unfair to cite sales when comparing FFVIII and FFIX given the above reasons. What are you thoughts on this?
you are right. really cannot understand how people could think otherwise.
It's too bad they didn't take the release date into account.
Thanks guys. This was really cool. Shared it with my brother. Some of our cherished memories was growing up playing the FF series.
I seriously love these discussions and never knew you guys had a podcast! I immediately subbed on itunes and already 3/4 of the way through the second episode. You have quickly become one of my favorite podcasts and I have a lot!
Are you guys gonna do a discussion on FF6? I haven’t played it yet and would love to play along
I picked up the HD versions of these on Psn I'm glad you did ff8 and will expand on others rpgs 👍 go buy it its super cheap right now same as ff9 and ff7
FF8 feels very... Culty. It's a slog to get through the first time, both in story, and in actual gameplay. Subsequent playthroughs, having knowledge about the story and the foreshadowing sprinkled throughout the game, makes for such a different experience than that first playthrough.
Talk about serendipity! I'm currently re playing FF8 for the nth time. Even though its my favourite title of the FF series, I definitely have some bones to pick about it now that I am playing it as an adult. Thank you, your video just made my 2021!
Dude. I just found this channel, just put your whole ff8 list on my playlist and love this. I was 10 when this game came out so it's nice to learn more than my initial, "gunswords are cool! "
Damn i always forget how insanely swole Mike has become.
I fucking love it. The dude needed a body as sharp as the mind. Now to use it as inspiration to hit the bench press, my dude!
@@cronoesify all the major philosophers were ripped so its a natural progression
@@SaberRexZealot you talking about the guy on the left? Hes not ripped lmao
I agree with the whole "hook" argument you put out in this video. As iconic as that opening sequence is, it's just a promise of cool things to come but then it just stops to a crawl making it one of the most boring first 5 hours of any final fantasy. Takes to long to get interesting and get TO THAT Dollet mission. Great video man. I still love ff8. I bought the switch physical release!
There's no way in hell it takes 5 hours to get to the dollet mission.
Hours of well-thought analysis on this wonderful game? Thank you!
Wow this is so cool, I've just replayed VIII and been absorbed into my 11 year old self again obsessed with it. I even just recently bought the special edition Vinyl