Final Fantasy 8 Analysis (Ep.2) | State Of The Arc Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- In this second episode of our deep-dive into Final Fantasy VIII, we examine the graduation of our party members from students at Balamb Garden into full members of SeeD, then continue all the way through the end of disk 1--which culminates with the failed assassination attempt on the sorceress Edea.
Time Codes:
1. Introduction (0:00)
2. Beginning Of The Summary Of What We Played This Time (0:45)
3. How FF8 Handles Worldbuilding (3:07)
4. Conversation About Cid And His Conflict With Garden Faculty (11:24)
5. SeeD Graduation And Selfie’s Place In The Party (15:00)
6. How Seriously Should We Scrutinize A FF Story? (18:30)
7. Seifer Character Discussion (19:44)
8. Ballroom Scene, Quistis Venting, and Squall Character Discussion (“Whatever” Lines) (24:04)
9. The Five Big Mysteries The Story Has Set At This Point (52:14)
10. How Earning Money Was Changed For This Game (55:18)
11. Timber Mission, And Background Info On GFs (59:19)
12. First Laguna Dream Sequence (1:06:06)
13. Arriving In Timber, Train Heist Sequence, Galbadia TV Broadcast (1:24:05)
14. Galbadia Garden (1:47:06)
15. Second Laguna Dream Sequence (1:55:09)
16. Assassination Attempt On Sorceress Edea (1:56:31)
17. Rebuttal To The Idea That FF8 Has “No Character Development” (2:26:30)
18: Discussion About The Game’s Core Theme (2:29:40)
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Игры
Time Codes:
1. Introduction (0:00)
2. Beginning Of The Summary Of What We Played This Time (0:45)
3. How FF8 Handles Worldbuilding (3:07)
4. Conversation About Cid And His Conflict With Garden Faculty (11:24)
5. SeeD Graduation And Selphie’s Place In The Party (15:00)
6. How Seriously Should We Scrutinize A FF Story? (18:30)
7. Seifer Character Discussion (19:44)
8. Ballroom Scene, Quistis Venting, and Squall Character Discussion (“Whatever” Lines) (24:04)
9. The Five Big Mysteries The Story Has Set At This Point (52:14)
10. How Earning Money Was Changed For This Game (55:18)
11. Timber Mission, And Background Info On GFs (59:19)
12. First Laguna Dream Sequence (1:06:06)
13. Arriving In Timber, Train Heist Sequence, Galbadia TV Broadcast (1:24:05)
14. Galbadia Garden (1:47:06)
15. Second Laguna Dream Sequence (1:55:09)
16. Assassination Attempt On Sorceress Edea (1:56:31)
17. Rebuttal To The Idea That FF8 Has “No Character Development” (2:26:30)
18: Discussion About The Game’s Core Theme (2:29:40)
Rtll
To align with you guys..
I think it makes sense they used an already made fmv for the speech..
Because, keep in mind, he already apologized for his team creating large content that wasn't used.. this fmv would have been even more unused content, had they changed it to something that fits..
Here's what I think happened in FF8 with Edea.
*WARNING ⚠ SPOILER*
DON'T READ MORE IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED IT 10+ TIMES IN YOUR LIFE.
Edea at the TV station became possessed by Adel via the frequency because she is still transmitting from half way from space yet nearer to the moon.
When they finally got the station working, the signals intensified and her mind was being controlled by Adel the pop singer who is known to manipulate people for her cause.
She thens recruits Seifer to her cause and vanishes.
Reasons why I say it's because it makes no sense for her to kill the President later when Seifer could have done it for her right then and there. Adel, while she waged war against the Galbadian army, is still trapped in space and by the work of Edea could get her released once she gets a hold of the Galbadian army.
Later on, Edea let's Rinoa come closer which again makes no sense if she's still possessed by the same Sorcereress. She gives her the Odine accessory and then immediately gets possessed by Ultimecia, a more ruthless Sorcereress who will kill the entire universe if may be.
Adel is driven to ambition and power. Which is why she seeks out Elone to gain more power and abilities to become Immortal.
She will wage war to for her selfish gains, but she knows that murdering everyone, she won't have any slaves to carry out her will.
Ultimecia is different, she's there to destroy all who opposes her and exterminate them all.
Odine did a lot of research of Ellone's power on how to junction someone from different time lines and by wearing that, Edea's attitude changed drastically.
Why would the President even trust Edea if she was so evil and callous to begin with? Even the President is caught off guard by this sudden change of behavior.
That's the only way I can explain it.
I'm pretty sure Edea asked Cid to launch the attack in Dollet to prevent Galbadia from succeeding despite already being closed to the President at that time, but you know how dictator works, even when you're on the same team, despite pleading your conserns directly to him, he'd rather wage war and conquer.
I do think Edea warned The President of not reactivating the towers but did it anyway because of ego to show off his "lifetime Presidency" to the world.
Which is still utterly ridiculous and nonsensical and more a power trip and flex of military might than anything practical. After 17 years of no transmission broadcast over the air, you'd think they'd still be people who kept their TVs at this point?
They'd either have cables going to their houses or they just would not care at all. We never saw a single TV in Windhill as far as I remember. Maybe a radio?
I'm leaving it as a power trip of colonialism and winning his wars than anything practical.
It's more than obvious that something changed in Edea after Rinoa gave her the Odine accessory.
She suddenly changed her hair and attire. She attacked and killed the President when she had the opportunity to do so earlier when Seifer held him at Gunblade point.
Her power alone would have been enough to overthrow the government itself.
Also Ultimecia methods makes no sense, even if her goal was to kill the President, why would you do so in front of the entire crowd. Why would the Galbadian Soldiers not rebel against the Sorcereress after she killed their leader. The intent was to impose fear and not a single one of them could stop her and so they are following out of survival.
It's probably why nobody stopped Squall from engaging Edea when there's obvious conflict between the citizens and the Galbadian soldiers.
It's more explained they were confused and in disarray.
That's the only logical conclusion as to why Edea behaved the way she did. Something obviously snapped during that Rinoa/Edea encounter and Odin's research of Ellone's power is behind all of this.
The guy that doesn't stand out at graduation is actually Nida, a character who pilots Balamb Garden later in the game.
Apology accepted, Captain Nidaaa.
-Darth Vader
On my first playthrough of FF8 the train mission scared the heck out of me. They go through this huge explanation of what you're going to do with decoupling cars and all this and as a player I thought I was going to have to REMEMBER all that information they just dump on you.
Same here. I was an overwhelming info dump and it could’ve totally have been relayed in real time on the train. Might’ve even helped u feel like a very capable seed like you’ve done this several times.
I swear I took notes of everything and thought I would fail for sure :')
I felt like i was in mission impossible all of sudden
I absolutely love Squall! Being an introverted person with anxiety I can relate to him on so many levels. His character development is definitely one of the best ones in the entire FFseries. He's misunderstood while dealing with personal trauma. It's brilliant writing!
Right? Not because I'm like him, but just because I understood him right off the bat, because of little hints to his personality or words he'd say in his head. He's a cool guy with issues.
@@reielric6246 His monologues are funny, i like it. and relatable too sometimes/many times (?)
I felt exactly the same when I originally played this. I clearly remember that this was the first time I really related to a videogame character, possibly any character. I still thought he was horrible to Quistis, though!
Completely agree! When I first played this game as a kid I didn't question Squall for a second because he was basically me at the time, the way he acted made so much sense. I'd even say that a major theme of this game is really just about how complex trauma affects people and how it impacts their personal/emotional growth. They handled that piece so incredibly well in my opinion, down to the details of him being very high functioning for his age to the point you sometimes forget he's 17, until you see he still has an incredible amount of trouble with emotions.
same here, I love Squall. I really enjoy flawed, jerk characters, if they are given depth. I mostly find him funny, because he's such a moody teenager! But like.. he's also trapped inside himself, his trauma keeps him from connecting with people. So I like him both superficially and in a deep way.
I'm a JP to EN translator, and I really agree with you guys. I might have translated that as "Yeah, my bad" or "Yup, sorry." Even so, there are so many cases when there is no correct translation, and "Whatever" actually does give the best emotion in a lot of cases. 悪かったな can actually be 100% genuine, so I would have to see the context. They simply use 魔女, which was translated to sorceress since "witch" probably sounds too obviously negative, I suppose.
Yeah I was surprised that the JP was 悪かったな, not どうでもいい or something that more boldly expresses zero empathy. 悪かったな seems to invite you to question the degree to which he really means it, but if he repeats it (and other similar lines like べつに) throughout the game you might come to understand he uses non-responsive behaviour as a defence mechanism - a wall he puts up to shut down conversation, which could be argued is the function of “whatever” in many cases.
@@shugyosha7924 would it be an equivalent of a dismissive "you're right"? Like when you just don't want a fight so you agree with the person?
@@BrenoGF144 hmm.. maybe.
The Japanese do do a lot of that - for example if my boss says something I don't agree with but can't disagree with him then I'd say そうですね (agreement) even though I think nothing of the sort. But, if it was anything critical of me, I'd say すみません (sorry / excuse me), which acknowledges the boss's feeling but not that I necessarily did anything wrong or was responsible (i.e. it's not strictly an agreement).
Squall could just say すまん or すまない (the casual equivalents of すみません) if that's what he meant, but what he actually says is 悪かったな, which taken literally is an outright apology. Like, you might say it to your girlfriend if you make her wait 30 mins for you to show up, where you're acknowledging that you did wrong.
I've never heard anyone say 悪かったな the way Squall seems to use it, but I'm not a native speaker so it could just be a thing I don't know about. Taken on surface level it's just an apology, but the fact he uses it so frequently is what makes you catch on to that he's using it as a defence mechanism. Also, you can see his thoughts and he's not apologetic there - he usually thinks things are too much hassle to express out loud.
I guess they didn't translate it as "sorry" because it would make him sound like a push over or something. In America people don't use the word sorry like that, it's too heavy. In Japan apology is just a thing you have to do to maintain social cohesion so it's not as heavy, usually. What's surprising is that they made it more standoffish, since if someone says "whatever" it's a very abrupt brush off and a person could easily take offence.
Maybe it carries that nuance - presumably the translators are better at Japanese than me - but given what they did to Edea's speech I'm also completely open to the idea that they changed that aspect of his character for western audiences. To the best of my knowledge the original isn't an agreement or a standoffish brush off, it's just an empty apology.
i think edeas title was changed to sorceress because of censorship reasons in the u.s. i played the game in german and spanish, and both use "witch" as her "title" i guess
This has to be the most underrated channel. Please youtube!
Seriously, as far as JRPGs and Final Fantasy go, this channel is criminally underrated. They deserve at least as much attention as Final Fantasy Union.
We can always share on our social media. I always do that on Twitter
Very glad I found it. Only because I was watching a lot of FFVIII content. This is insane how deep they go into the game.
@@dbgaming274 Agreed! Especially when talking about why they think FFVIII has great characters. Never gave them much thought before, but their analysis is great!
I'm grateful and happy that my favorite content creators are discussing my favorite game with such depth and knowledge. Thank you Mike and Casen
The first time you meet Selphie is actually in Balamb Garden, right in the beginning of the game, as you exit the classroom. She's late for the class and bumps into you.
Yeah, they skip through a lot of minor details in this series. The Xenogears one they just did is way more in depth.
I have eagerly devoured these videos the moment I saw that they were posted. I'm constantly amazed by the informative tidbits (like the segment on leitmotif) and kernels of little known facts. The attention to detail and level of analysis given by the Resonant Arc team is something that I've never experienced elsewhere. It's truly the most comprehensive take I've seen in all gaming media and I'd like to thank you deeply for covering one of my favourite games THIS in depth. I believe this is one of the most underrated titles of all time. The care you put into your elaboration on subtleties and nuances is noticed and greatly appreciated. Thank you.
PS I'd love to hear more about the novel you're working on. As someone that's been writing since Uni (and have finally settled on an idea to polish and send to agents!) I think it could be fun :)
This podcast/analysis hybrid format is fucking amazing. Like actually perfect. Informative, entertaining, and keeps my attention the whole way through! Keep it up!
This analysis is dope. I may replay as an adult thanks to you guys
I actually got married to ff8 eyes on me xD
If you get divorced 1 winged angel is fitting
That's the dream :')
This guy doesn't own a dog house, if you know what I mean...
You got married to the song itself? I mean it's beautiful song, I hope you have a happy life together.
Joking, hope you had a wonderful wedding to that piece hehe
Congrats
I sure hope they do this with some of the other games in the series.
For Sure. I'd like a FFX podcast
⁰
@@pyguy7 6 eps out now, hope you've not seen them, so this is a big surprise for you lol
I love your character analysis... especially Squall's - I think you captured him perfectly, and the reason he resonated with many teens. The segment at 49:00 was great!
A game centered around Laguna would be so great, haha
On the subject of Selfie's status as an elite special forces member, I am only half kidding when I say, "what better infiltration agent than one whose first impression is: lost crazy kid, and not imminent threat?"
It was right around the time where her first suggestion for the train mission is to simply blow up the president with a rocket launcher when I thought that her peppy girl personality might just be an act to cover up crazy.
> to cover up crazy.
*Jason Vorhees Selfie when?*
Sounds like Jesse from them FFVII Remake in a nutsack
@@Gaming4BoringGrownUps im sorry in a what
Re: Squall’s Japanese in the Japanese original (30:00): His Japanese dialogue doesn’t have recurring “Whatever” like words, but he often responds in cold and almost indifferent ways. I haven’t played the Japanese version in years, but I kind of remember him saying things like “That’s life” in response to people opening up and telling him their problems. “Whatever” can seem much more harsh in English, but the Japanese wasn’t so harsh. He was definitely cold and aloof though in his responses for the first three discs, but warms up on the way to Esther (?).
21:47 a very strong moment indeed. Specially when you think that seifer has gone through that before: he failed the Seed Exam before.
The graphics in FF8 were mind-blowing to me even into the PS2 era. It’s because of the attention to detail like you guys mentioned, with the unique 2d/3d hybrid style of the PS1 RPGs. The amazing use of FMVs were the icing on the cake. I still think FF8 was the best looking game on PS1 despite the “best looking guy here” memes that seem to come from a post-CRT viewpoint.
In the context of JRPGs, I don’t know how strange FF8 in particular is when it comes to teenagers fighting in organized military, since Cloud was a grunt soldier as early as 15 in FF7, and was surely far from the only one. In the US I think the youngest age of enlistment is 17, though clearly with more supervision involved. The logistical flaws in the missions the FF8 party undertakes are simultaneously an issue with the scenario writing, and a probable reflection of teenage immaturity if they were assigned to life/death situations. Kinda reminds me of many scenes in Harry Potter actually, so there’s existing appeal there despite the obvious frustrations when analyzed.
I totally agree with Mike in how the characters are very likable and relatable (especially if you played as a teen). The humor is spot-on and improved translation/animation probably helped in general. A lot of people on the internet over the years have criticized Squall for reasons that don’t hold up over the course of the game. And his party members not having 3-hour backstories doesn’t make them unenjoyable, tho it does make their wiki entries shorter. Plus, Laguna exists as a chaser for any bitter taste that Squall’s POV may leave.
Looking forward to the other episodes when they arrive on this channel with your additional interjections. I'm lightly hoping that you guys talked more about the music in this game, it surprised me how you JUST noticed the Eyes on Me leitmotif in "Waltz for the Moon" haha
It's definitely my favorite soundtrack in all of gaming.
Selphie is the most fleshed out character in the game. Her diary let's you know how she feels about every event in the game and also about everyone in the game!
I cant believe i actually watch a whole 2 and a half hour youtube video.. 😂
Same 😂
Welcome to RUclips, you must be new here.
2x speed is your friend. haha
you must be new around here lol. RUclips will get you.
Work your way up to watching EFAP.
They talk so much about Squall's repressed emotional volatility but don't mention his freak-out when everyone's talking about Seifer in the past tense? That may have been my favorite disk 1 moment. I just started a new playthrough a couple days ago and it's really cool to come back and listen to this as I make my way through. Keep up the good work!
I cried so much during your analysis of Squall's trauma. The passion and emotion with which you delved into that aspect of his story . . . it was incredibly touching. This is such a lovely podcast all the way around. Thank you for appreciating every single aspect of this game and taking the time to make sense of it all.
Nice video ! Just a mention, That ''inside view'' is more so him shutting himself off from others due to fear and insecurity. This is because of his traumatic experience of when he lost family in particular his sister when he was a little kid in the orphanage and he thought that he was abandoned. Ultimecia Represents our Suffering from holding on to our fears / traumas of the past, that can not be changed. Ultimecia Quote ''Reflect on your... Childhood... Your sensation... Your words... Your emotions...Time, it will not wait...No matter how hard you hold on...it escapes you. And..."
I'd also like to add Seifer has a ''outside view'' which is the bully mentality of taking out his fear and insecurities on others which more so hurts others. Squall Bottles it in and hurts more so himself, obviously both being toxic approaches that don't solve their issue.
@@watchthisspace2576 I'd also argue seifer does just as much damage to himself with that type of mentality.
Being so focused on his dream of Sorceress knight he dulls himself to his own iniquities or insecurities eventually driving away his own friends.
Until Fujin spoke up seifer completely refuses to own his faults. He does just as much damage to himself as squall.
I think the immature writing for Timber resistance is really to portray how youth think and crazy they are at this time. I really like the payoff when Squall told them off and later on Quitis lecture on Rinoa at Rinoa house. It shows that you need to be more competent to do this kind of work.
50:28 the diference between Squall and seifer boils down to the latter having friends and Squall being a lone wolf.
I always took Selphie behavior at the start to mirror her previous Garden atmosphere. Three Gardens, vastly different. And when you first meet her she goes on to mention running festivals there and wanting to bring it to Balamb.
Which always felt to me that her original garden was more acts themed. We never see any Seeds from that garden or in combat. Which makes me feel she was transferred to Balamb because she has that talent while also still having that carefree attitude.
I like that Mike goes on a long explanation of how contextual Japanese is and therefore why localising is ok to not be exact to make it easier to understand only to immediately defend a change made that is far more context heavy than the original Japanese was.
FF8 is the way it is, ultimately, because It's anime you play.
JRPGs are basically playable animes.
@@madthrasher88 they actually are animes sometimes (Dragon Quest Dai and Persona)
@@BrenoGF144 Literally every Tales game
selphie was supposed to be on the communications teams during the mission but managed to go above and beyond in her duty in not only tracking down seifer, but helping his squad take down a giant monster and escape from x-atm. she is a seed because she showed her ability to accomplish tasks on the battlefield regardless of her ditzy personality. and she will prove time and time again that regardless of her lack of discipline in her personality, she's is one of the most capable members of the party.
also cid entrusted squall and the others to rinoa's judgement indefinitely, who is an infinitely worse person to have be in charge of anything or even be involved in military operation, so i mean, its kind of whatever that he let someone like selphie pass.
seperate point: "rinoa goes to talk to cid" that is not as confirmed as you make it out to be. rinoa directly states "seifer is the one who introduced me to cid." which could mean she was there to talk to seifer like "hey can you help me with this as a seed" and then he referred her to cid after that. this makes a lot more sense why she was there at a graduation party as opposed to just making a formal meeting, because she may have been working under the presumption seifer would pass. but it is rinoa so who knows if she had actual reasoning for doing anything or if she just showed up and let it work itself out.
In this clip, she says she spoke to Cid directly. ruclips.net/video/IlZwE1E5KOs/видео.html
@@michaelcoraybrown ok watch that entire scene though.
"so you were looking for the headmaster at the party?" *shakes head and hands in a 'no' motion*
"you know seifer?"..."well he's the one who introduced me to cid."
i still feel like i'm right.
@@michaelcoraybrown she did talk to cid, but what i mean is she didn't stop dancing with squall because she saw cid, its still implied in my mind that was seifer she went to go talk to in that moment
@@Namingway248 I guess I'm confused about what you're objecting to. She talked with Cid directly and set up this contract. I thought that was the point I made in the video.
@@michaelcoraybrown well it wasn't really a big point im "objecting" to, more just like a "funfact" type of thing. the exchange in the video is (and i don't have the exact timestamp anymore so this is paraphrased)
"so she goes and talks to seifer-"
"cid"
"is it cid?"
"yes, she went to talk to cid"
you're right, she did talk with cid directly to set up a contract, but that *wasn't* why she went to the party (according to how i interpret her body language in the scene you linked) and so she really probably *did* go to talk to seifer after the dance, who eventually took her to cid so that she could form a contract. we don't actually know, because we don't actually see who she walks off towards.
but again, just for the sake of letting you know, i'm not trying to say thats a big deal or "discredit" your discussion or anything. a lot of people on here debate with that kind of motivation and i don't want to be misconstrued, because i do think your points are interesting and i do like hearing them.
Two episodes in and this is already one of the best things I've ever listened to/watched. Your attention to detail and ability to expertly break down story-telling elements have me very excited for all your future work.
@Resonant Arc One idea on the thought of starting FF8 in the dollet mission as a more exciting start however needing more set up for its context:
Take a note from FFX. FFX didnt start right at the exact epic moment with the blitzball stadium and heavy metal guitar music. It started with Tidus getting ready for the match, talking to some fans and showing off a little personality. Him snorting at his father's picture to give some character relationship dynamic, then hearing some commentary about said father just as a little taste of an introduction to him. THEN the game hits with the big intro hook
.
For FF8 do something similar. start maybe a little before the Dollet mission with some set up perhaps on the ride over to Dollet just before and let them give the exposition needed. Plus Seifer, zell, and Squall can show their personality right off the bat. Exposition and context given, character personality and relationship dynamic's given. boom boom boom, ready to go then hit with the fade to black and cue the liberti fatali and Dollet intro ;)
Thank you very much for uploading these on your channel. Never knew about the podcast but loving these episodes and playing along with you guys for the first time in 20 years. Will make sure to check your older episodes as well. :)
The breakdown of how bad the sorceress assassination was hilarious and I completely agree.
My biggest surprise today was hovering the subscribe button and realizing I was already subbed to this channel.
Production quality is amazing! You guys need your own TV series where you guys talk about RPG's.
Guys I love this. I just discovered y’all and I can’t wait to dive into more of y’all’s content. FF8 is my second favorite of the series and it’s great to see someone go this deep into it and to learn things I never knew before.
About Edea's speech, it's not a "people are defending mind control" as much as the game tells you. Once Edea is out (I think disc 3?), if you go to Deiling and speak with people, some of them will tell you that they didn't feel quite in control of their actions during her rule.
I started this comment "abuptly" because I wanted to see if you guys get to read it. I'm really happy to have discovered this channel and Imma keep on listening ^^
This!
And before going to missiles base with Selphie, you can go to Deling and people is still saying things like how cool is Edea and that. And why affects only to citizens is as simple as she (Ultimecia) cast the spell to people in front of her during the speech.
Yeah, it gets established that Sorceresses can control swathes of people, but only one sorceress. Really you can chalk up any kind of discrepancy or errors to: jrpg nature. Jrpg’s are just….. uh…. Bad? In a lot of logical aspects
Thank you so much for analyzing my first FF game. Even though I really LOVE FF7 FF8 is like my first love or my first kiss. It is special to me with all the good and the bad. FF8 will always be my favorite FF game. Great work guys thank you again!
I'm watching this for the second time, because I am actually playing through the remaster myself at the same pace. It's such a unique experience seeing it fresh, and watching your analysis, really remembering all these events played out.
I am a huge fan of your work.
Thank you for doing what you do.
Hey guys, nice analysis of Final Fantasy VIII. Regarding the scene of the Sorceress speech and why would people be cheering or clapping, I have a more down to earth or more realistic reason as to why and, more importantly, how it actually happens in real life in similar situations. Basically the reason is kind of like two fold or comes with two possible explanations that work as one, the first is that people just simply are carrying on with the cheering because they are really not putting attention to the speech, even though you are in a place with speakers with high volume, some people will just keep cheering and clapping and such, mainly because they're there for the parade, not for the speech or the president or whatever reason. In FFVIII context, it is mentioned that president Deling is not very well liked in Deling city, I think this is mentioned in passing by Watts or Zone and latter some other people, I think even the body double mentions this. This leads into the second reason, that most likely doesn't happen in USA but does happen in most Latinamerican countries as well as some underdeveloped countries. It's not uncommon in Latinamerica and Mexico for example that presidents are not liked by the majority of people, so it's very common that the political party or members in the president's staff hire people to cheer and clap and show "support" for the president, in Mexico we call them "hauled people", because they are brought from different cities and even different states in busses just for an event and then returned to their city or state. So, if you combine those two possible reasons you can assume that Deling, knowing that he is not very well liked but wants to put up a show that he has a lot of followers, "hires" a lot of people to cheer and clap for him and the Sorceress, so they will do that regardless of what happens. Add the people who is just there for the parade and will follow whatever the other crowd does and you have people that is cheering for someone who is, without a question, not only insulting them but also threatening them.
Now, you might think, "That can't be possible, no one will keep claping or cheering under such circumstances", and normally you would be right, if you are thinking that all people in the world behaves like people in the US, but in Mexico, it was very common, specially in the 90s that presidents and even candiates all had their "cheering squad" to always clap and cheer in public speeches for them. There is this video of a candiadate in Mexico that was a major of a town looking to be reelected saying to a crowd in the town the following "Did I steal money from the town's budget? Yes I did! Yes I did! But very little because the town is poor, I just shaved it a little, just a little, but what I stole with this hand, with the other I gave it to the poor my friends!"...and people clapped, they laughed and clapped and cheered. People who lives in the town, who always says that there is mismanagement of the towns budget, that the current major is stealing from them, now he confesses that he does, little, but he does, and they clap and cheer to him. It doesn't make sense right? Well, when you know that candidates, majors, governors, presidents often hire people to cheer no matter what the person says, then you kind of assume that in the Sorceress speech, there are people hired to cheer. The first time I played FFVIII as a teenager in the 90s, being Mexican my first thought was "Those people must have been 'hauled' to be there and cheer", "hauled" mening they were payed and taken to the event to cheer no matter what.
So, this is my take on that part, I think also that, from a development standpoint, creating a different asset for that part might have been complicated so they just went along with it, but I would like to believe that an in game and in story context might be a better thing always. but I would love to know what are your thoughts in my explanation. I would love to talk about FFVIII and other Final Fantasy games.
This is something I always considered, they cheer because they are not paying attention to the speech, they are there for the parade and the Michael Jackson dancers.
They have already been sold on the idea that, other than Esthar, they are an unrivaled power on the continent, and now they have a superweapon just like Esthar did before in the sorcereress.
It is national pride and a product of the world they live in where there is a precedent that having a sorcereress in control is ,not only a viable form of government, but puts you on the top.
Remember Adel and Esthar were THE world power just 17 years earlier
This is a fascinating perspective that I have never considered before. Thank you for sharing that!
Another way to view it and this is my speculation is that we are, as squall, coming into this fresh. She has mostlikey made moves long before our party is called into doing things. She's probably well known and has some rep with her. This country also seems like a country on a downfall imo. From what I can tell so far they were the same way towards esthar and were trying to stop the sorceress and it seems to have semi worked or something happened that for the lifespan of Squall esthar has been quiet and there is no radio. Suddenly radio is back when this lady is back. High sus. I'm still playing through it but there's enough here that gives some clues to whag might be happening.
I'm really enjoying this series so far and appreciate the time and effort you guys are putting into it. You're doing a great job of giving me a nostalgic feeling as you talk through the story and scenes without me needing to personally dedicate 40+ hours I don't have to play though it again. Of course, all the background production information and in depth analysis is all really great, educational and entertaining.
These are awesome and great editing too, I cant wait to see you go through all the games.
I’m really enjoying this show talking about FF8 my favourite FF title. There is a scene just as the mission is about to begin with Irvine where Irvine asks about “good and evil” which is interesting considering the stakes and squalls response where is there is no good good and evil just perspective which I really like. I thought Irvines breakdown was more to do with killing edea and what is means later on in the story when things come to light. One thing I wanted to mention in the previous video is the squall and seifer fight. The reason why seifer intentionally scare squall or injuries him is to force him out of his shell. Because for me squall is like a robot at times and I think that shows in how he fights the injury should make home react and maybe be more forceful because it’s a training fight but seifer wants a fight where squall is giving his all to push each other in order to improve.
I love that ive been watching these vids all evening and im only up to the bit where squall n quistis are at the secret area
The podcast is great so far! I love listening to y'all talk shop about final fantasy 8 bc you bring interesting perspectives to it! I was wondering where you were filming though, it's really nice wherever it is!
Thank you for doing ff8 justice with this analysis. 8 was my first final fantasy so my first love! Lok not enough love is shown towards this game unfortunately
I was gonna wait a bit longer before I replay the game but man yall got me excited to play it again so I'm downloading the remaster right now lol
Guys this is so fantastic. One of my favorite games being critiqued and discussed in such a knowledgeable and patient manner. With real production to the set to the cameras, and editing in example of what's being discussed. Keep going.
EDIT: Maybe i forgot over the decades about the Timber TV but Holy Shit. Creepy.
when Squall started dancing better I had thought that he had forced himself to think of it like work. he knows how to, but Rinoa threw him off so much that it took him time to focus, regather himself and apply his training.
You didn't mention that the Paraders are dancing 'Thriller'!
This is awesome to listen to! I love the detail you're going into. I've been thinking of replaying this masterpiece this year. Definitely going to have to now.
Loving the podcast so far. Thanks guys.
Hearing the two of you heap praise onto these characters truly warms my heart 🥺 FFVIII is my absolute favorite Final Fantasy - it’s not perfect but it has so much heart and the relationships between the characters are so well developed throughout the game.
I basically WAS Squall in high school. I was a good student and had a kind heart, but early in elementary I had gotten bullied a lot for it. I never joined others in picking on kids, didn't help kids cheat, etc. So growing up with those kids through most of school, I just kept everything inside and didn't give others the time of day.
So I absolutely get where Squall is coming from and why he says some of the things he says. Opening up just means inviting more pain in. It's taking a chance, and when you're young and not emotionally mature, it just becomes a defense mechanism that others rarely understand.
love the quistis and squall scene. the writting may be ackward but so is the situation. It also made me look forward for Quistis role in the adventure and the evolution of her relationship with Squall. igor really disapointed
Oh damn, I had no idea you did one of these for FF8. I first found you on the Xenogears introspective. I absolutely and incredibly enjoyed that series like you couldn't imagine. Spread it to many friends who have a deep love for that game as it was so great seeing you learn, grow and gain knowledge on your journey.
I've gotta dig into your channel and see what other games you've done this for.
For now, let me go back to pt.1 of this FF8 series and enjoy the podcast. Many thanks for all that you do and keep up the great work
Ok. this is BY FAR the best FF8 analysis there is, and they are still in the first disc. There attention to details, the love for the characters, the passion for the game even with its ups and downs. This is my favourite FF (because of that seing that your favourite FF is always your first FF), and it feels that every analisys in youtube just spend to much time pointing out everithing wrong (including things everyone forgives in other FFs), and not appreciating the arcs and valance of the characters, the humor, the hidden content, the politics of the world and everything else. Thanke You guys.
Agreed! This is not bashing for bashing’s sake.
Some time ago I have an urge to hear ff8 theme on youtube. One of them is an orchestral performance and the start to play the dance song and from that, I notice that it had eyes on me in it and it really made me happy. Really awesome to hear you talk about it.
34:25 its called the Dunning-Krueger effect.
The high confidence occurs in the valley of stupidity
It's like that old story about the Toad being the king of jumping of his pond. One day, he jumps high enough to see over the reeds and he realizes how big the world actually is and that he might not be the best after all.
This concept has been weaponized as a replacement for a legitimate argument by lazy people. There's some good articles out there about the abuse of dunning-kruger accusations. It's essentially a combination of ad hominem and appeal to authority combined into one dismissive pseudo-intellectual cop-out. There is truth in the concept, but people often take concepts to their extremes and jump on any chance to apply it overly broadly. It's a rising trend.
@@h1r086 ok
@@DaytimeOperator Just spreading the word to attack the arguments and not the person.
27:15 the ball scene is great. impressive on a technical level too
Loving this series on FFVIII! I think a really cool detail that you guys hadn’t discussed was that of the theme which played during Edea’s parade scene, Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec.
This title is actually an anagram of “Succession of Witches” and “Love” (a theme you discussed near the end of the video).
Pretty cool detail I figured, especially since Succession of Witches is Edea’s theme that plays when you first encounter her at the TV Station.
The Laguna line is hilarious!! Great points again for this episode :D
Final Fantasy is a set of stories. About attempting to save the world, by exploring it.
The funny thing is that most hard core gamers become gamers because, just like squall, they were very afraid to open up tu people when they were growing up and were very introvertive and closed up to people and even rude, but when they see a character in the game thats just like them, they dont like it and even insult the character
See I take the opposite look at it. As a hardcore gamer I've been introverted throughout my life, and a bit of a shut in growing up. I was never blatantly rude or dismissive of people. Most introverts tend to be pretty polite or agreeable so they can now have other people focus on them. Squall's just an asshole throughout the game.
Your outfits nicely coordinate with your brand background. haha :)
I am one of the weird ones who love the junction system. I learned how to game it and junction 99 death on to attack basically giving every characters normal attack like a 60% chance to one shot normal mobs. I just love how op you can get by using the system right
Agreed I love it as well. I had 99 haste on speed with Squall and I was literally going two to three times for almost everyone else’s one turn. I didn’t even think about 99 death on attack though that had to be extremely fun. Makes me want to play again just to do other combos
So, I'm going to be honest and say that I've been playing FF8 myself so I won't be watching this video until later because I don't want too many spoilers. I'm commenting because I felt I should extend my appreciation for this channel. It's awesome! I'm a big fan! I enjoyed the FF7 original walkthrough from years back.
@@38kob Thank you!
This is really great! Thanks for doing these.
My only addition might be kind of a Binge Mode style deal where you DO use the larger story to contextualize some of the large points that occur in these earlier parts of the game. There are definitely things that happen in the early game that have heavy meaning once you advance later in the game, and it would be nice to have a section of your conversation where you can talk about that. Otherwise, I feel some things in the earlier episodes are going to be lost, in that some moments of brilliance may be overlooked because they won’t be properly explained until far later in the game. Attempting to talk in circles around foreshadowing because you’ve limited yourself to not being allowed to reference later events seems like an unnecessary handicap, or at least one that could be remedied by having a segment where you remove that handicap and talk about the effects some of these microcosms have on the greater story.
Thank you for watching! We appreciate you. In response to the following:
"There are definitely things that happen in the early game that have heavy meaning once you advance later in the game, and it would be nice to have a section of your conversation where you can talk about that."
They won't get lost. When the payoffs happen, we pull it all together.
2:22:00 I’m almost certain there’s at least one NPC in Deling City who brings up feeling as though they were under some sort of ‘mind control’ spell, that is if you come back and talk to them in later portions of the game.
Not to argue that this was actually the case, but I believe a lot of the player speculation around city-wide mind control has been sustained due to tidbits of NPC dialogue that come about if you return after Disc 1.
I'll fire up my save files and go check on this. Thanks for bringing it up.
I love this game and I’m ganna play it again and really pay attention to all the details. Never would have know without watching these videos
i always thought that Cid sent Squall on a mission to independence to protect him and his team from the war inside the garden
"Squall and Zell and Selphie and some guy, they become the new SeeDs..."
Just some guy? This Nida erasure will not stand.
He'll get his moment in the next part!
No spoilers! Lol
Why certain characters and NPCs were not mind controlled during the Deling city parade (my theory) was maybe because Elone was working in the background, helping them accomplish the mission..
Not sure how, but the fact she's taking them to Laguna's world was convincing enough to have that some kind of power to block mind-control spells.
Good sidebar to ponder the Dunning-Kruger effect.
I'm happy someone actually sat down and went through in depth this game. I have always been a huge fan of this particular installment.
There is one point that I wanted to point out/query you on.
Is there a reason you didn't really dive into the character change of Seifer after he is "Enchanted" by Edea at the TV station?
For me, it was extremely obvious in that scene that she casts a spell on him changing he view of her.
Just curious.
P.s. fantastic job, im looking forward to the next episode.
2:05:29 Rinoa wanted to discuss on how to put the jewelry on Edea, which has higher chance of succeeding if properly implemented, but Quistis didn't want to listen. They might have no time left to discuss, but ensuring the plan is good is important so that they all won't die. Rinoa was being serious, but they couldn't take her seriously because she's an amateur and not trained. .. They are really kids/rookies, no matter if they're trained or not. (Not that I can do better though)
Excellent breakdown gentlemen.
Regarding Irvine choking up, I think they should have definitely changed the dialogue for better foreshadowing (and better characterization) without giving too much away. For example:
Irvine: "I can't shoot her! She's Edea!"
Squall: "Just do it. Don't think about it. She's just a sorceress."
Irvine: "What are you talking about, man? She's not just any sorceress, this is Sorceress EDEA!"
Squall: "Look, don't think about it. Just do it. If you can't, I'll finish the job."
Irvine: "You really would, wouldn't you? Even if I can't... you'd just... try to kill her yourself?"
Squall: **nods** "Just stick to the mission."
- first time playthrough, and Squall, thinks Irvine is just scared because the sorceress is powerful or whatever. Meanwhile, second read-through shows that Irvine is actually in total disbelief that Squall would kill his own mother figure.
I wish I found this chad’s channel earlier this is some serious thought provoking videogame content.
Regarding Deling City, I suggest going back and talking to the NPCs during Disc 2 and Disc 3-- she's exerted some kind of influence on the citizens, even if it's not direct mind control, its kind of like...mind bending to a certain idea. (Arguably also what she did to Seifer.)
NPC in Galbadia Garden says that Sorceress can brainwash people.
I feel like that Edea speech is what would happen if Beyonce/celeb was a sorceress lol
also love the insights you give around Seifer! his character is very strong.
I was gonna say, the scene can alnost be read as a kind of commentary on how a population is compelled by charismatic demagogues and shows of force. Definitely a bit of a stretch though.
Thank you for pronouncing her name as KWIstis in this episode and not KISStis like you were in the first haha.
This is giving me alot more appreciation for Final fanasy 8 I love the commentary on the content. I actually stop caring about the game after a certain twist so maybe I should pick it back up and try again.
Leg cramp laguna gets me every time!
Squall was actually supposed to be much closer to the pillar, but he had to save Rinoa earlier which is why he was at the sniper position.
Awesome work guys!!
Played the game once or twice back in early 2000's, I liked the game overall, but hated the draw magic mechanic. Hearing all the things that you guys are mentioning that I either didn't get/noticed/missed/didn't know is really great.
Awesome analysis! 🙌🏽
A Laguna game would be amazing. To flesh out Laguna's come up and meeting Kirk's and Ward and their adventures together. Laguna living with Raine and Kiros coming for him, being captured and brought to Esthar, and their escape and his subsequent tragic return to Raine. Finally finishing with his reuniting with Squall.
That would be awesome.
I'd also really like to see an Edea backstory. Her come up with Cid and how she became a sorceress and the creation of Garden ending with Edea's mind finally being taken over and forced to leave and Cid finalizing what Garden would become.
I’m in love with this series, but - “child soldiers could possibly be a theme” POSSIBLY? It’s an incredibly clear theme to me.
The reason I don’t like the idea of starting with Dollet is that I think, for all its flaw in execution, there is a lot of power in starting with the serene nostalgic school days vibe, complete with very believable 17 year olds, then hammering home with the beach invasion that this “school” is a mercenary war machine, and these 17 year olds are child soldiers. A big part of Squall’s emotional journey is escaping the mercenary soldier mentality-unmoored from anything except listening to authority and fighting-and instead learning the powers of how to connect with people and how to think for himself. It works on both the literal level of a child soldier character emerging from that traumatized state, and as a more relatable allegory for coming into adulthood.
I swear if they ever Remake this game there is a lot of opportunity to turn this game into one of the funniest FF games of the whole series and a very memorable game
on the topic of warukatta na, thats also generally a bit childish, helps to underline his kinda stuck as a boy thing and his overcompensating for it, how he's less mature than he tries to portray
also gives him a bit of a tsundere quality lol
I honestly think that Final Fantasy VIII is the perfect example of people constantly asking developers for something new then being like, all your changes suck.
@ 11:18 There are some plot points where you need to duel others to get more info or slight change in story. Like from the guy in Dollet Pub you can duel him so you can read some of the magazines stacked up in his room. Collecting the Timber Maniac's magazines directly change certain parts in the story when you're playing as Laguna. Another possible instance, keep in mind I haven't played this fully in awhile, I would imagine is from the one side quest with the CC group.
My problem with the characters in this game isn’t their personalities. I do like them as characters. My issue comes with the fact that besides Squall, no other character really has an arc. Characters like Zell, Selphie, Quistis, and Irvine is that they are pretty much the same character a the end that they were at the beginning.
Even Rinoa, who has a little bit of an arc, isn’t too much. Squall is an amazing character though. And while I do think the party are fun and have great personalities, I wish they grew more. And obviously this was probably the point, but this is why they do not resonate with me strongly.
The part about Edea's assassination I believe you are wrong about their plan. The parade actually goes through the city all around and at the very end comes back to where she gave the speech through the arch so now she is actually facing Irvine and Squall so he can have his shot. It's not super clear and not told straight away as part of the plan but it makes sense when you think about why they need to wait so long to actually start the plan and not do it at the very start of the parade.
And the fact about dropping the gate first is indeed to force her to stay still, I believe someone mentions it, perhaps Irvine. He says that shooting a moving target is much harder etc.
The parade goes out of the palace gate and does a full circular circuit around the _outside_ of the city returning to the start, then it turns into the road running through the middle of the city moving directly away from the palace with the sniper team now in position inside. Caraway demonstrates it clearly in his briefing, he says the float exits on one side of the palace and returns on the other then turns down onto the middle road moving away from the palace and that this is when they take the shot.
It _would_ have made sense to do it the way you described (other than only touring one side of the city) but they did not, if the sniping team had been set up on the opposite side of the city (above the train station I think) it would have made sense but they did not do this either.
Likely it was a miscommunication between the devs where the shape of the city and the need to rescue Rinoa from the start point clashed with each other and they were too rushed to fix it. Or maybe the float was just designed wrong and was not meant to have all those big chunky pieces in the way at the back, a more open design would have left her a much better target to hit from behind.
Dangit you guys, don't get me used to a good thing!
"At ease, men."
In a lot of ways Kitase is the JJ Abrams of videogames. He presents these mystery boxes that seem interesting but its a coin toss on wether you'll actually get an answer or not, and another coin toss on if the answer will be satisfying or clever or just well thought out even.
Since it’s brought up and not resolved:
“Sorceress” in the Japanese is 魔女 (majou) meaning literally “magic woman” and is often translated as “witch” with the same implications that that word has in English.
The Witch being the peace emissary sounds pretty ominous, which is why everyone seems pretty scared of it, and why Edea makes her speech about “Sorceresses being hunted for their powers”.