Time Codes: 1. Intro (0:00) 2. Laguna Dream Sequence #3 (1:33) 3. D-District Prison (20:55) 4. Galbadian Missile Base (48:21) 5. Balamb Garden Civil War (1:01:06) 6. Thoughts On How Squall And Rinoa's Romance Develops (1:11:43) 7. Ellone (1:27:30) 8. The Garden Master Norg (1:30:06) 9. The White SeeDs (1:33:32) 10. Fisherman's Horizon (1:35:34) 11. The Source Of Squall's Abandonment Trauma (1:43:59) 12. Side Content (1:52:40) 13. Balamb Village Siege and Orphanage Scene Plotwist (2:04:36) 14. Battle Against Galbadia Garden (2:30:21) 15. Battle Against Sorceress Edea and Seifer (2:46:54)
Thank you so much for doing this guys. It means so much to me, and makes me surprisingly emotional to hear people talk about these games so seriously and lovingly.
This was my favorite FF growing up, and it gets so much criticism on the internet that I began to believe that it was a bad game, but now thanks to these podcasts I feel vindicated and might even pick it up again.
Objectively, it's definitely not a bad game. A lot of criticism arises from comparisons to 7 and 9... Even in that context, there's a lot that 8 pioneered and did well that the other games didn't. For me, the story in 7 was incredible and still, 8 felt like a progression and improvement. A 9/10 when ppl are expecting an 11/10 doesn't make for a bad game. It's a great game
this channel's analyses are so excellent and well-researched, so much that when mike comes in to correct himself he really breaks up the flow and i wish he'd post it as an addendum because nobody is questioning his original analysis. because it's already excellent.
I fell in love with Rinoa almost IMMEDIATELY as a young introverted (and admittedly lonely) high schooler when I first played this game. And I related A LOT to the way Squall thought and felt. So I was almost compelled to keep everyone at arm's length.....except for her. So anytime I was allowed to be kind(ish) to her, I leaped at the opportunity. So when the confession finally happens much later on (I won't spoil how), it was a relief and it was something I'd wanted for them both because I'd kind of wanted it for myself. And it felt natural and well telegraphed. I agree with you that, even though I'm well aware of the Japanese cultural romantizing of mean-spirited guy getting the good-natured girl, I can't fully fathom how Rinoa could want a version of Squall who never showed her any kindness. And more to the point, I wouldn't have wanted her to want someone who treated her like that.
Simple fixes for the whole tonal clusterfuck of the Galbadia Garden fight; move the Griever scene with the ring to either Fisherman's Horizon during the "Festival" or during the trip to Trabia Garden, but before heading to Galbadia Garden. Maybe have it in a scene directly before the fight, just before Galbadia Garden is seen on the Balamb sensors/viewport/whatever. Then shorten the length of time between Rinoa falling and getting rescued. The length of time she is hanging is ridiculous. And finally, don't have *everyone* jumping down Squall's throat to save Rinoa. Split it up roughly 50/50, so you've got maybe Selphie and Irvine hounding him to rescue her while Zell and Quistis hound him to focus on everything else. Balance it so he's getting hounded from all sides pulling in different directions. The teenage angst and flirting in the *middle of a war* is... absurd.
If you send Rinoa to the Missle Base, when she and Squall reunite they have a really cute scene where you can choose for Squall to be happy to see her and there's a very cute exchange between them.
Definitely the best take on the Orphanage scene I've heard. It's all in the execution, and just a few minor tweaks would've at least pulled it out of the hole of total randomness for many. More emphasis should've been put on the Cid/Edea angle and Irvine's revelation should've been handled less awkwardly. One of my favorite parts of FF8 back in the day was actually connecting the dots between the main characters without explicitly being told. The Eyes On Me + Julia + Rinoa connections were particularly neat to find out, and it slightly reminds me of the pleasures while piecing Bloodborne's lore together through NPCs & items. Not that I think FF8 should've kept ALL its breadcrumbs subtle and hidden (i.e. GF memory), but it's a factor that contributes to how divisive the game can be as Casen expresses around 02:03:25 and on.
On the topic of Seifer: Thanks for the huge chunk of interjection about Seifer and his agency. I'm in the camp he's "under her control" after that tv station magical effect and she's distorting his reality - both magically (see her suggestion to the Deling City crowd and the purple veil), but also plain normally gaslighting him a good bit. This is purely my own speculation and interpretation: He is never seen using any GF but instead fights with fire spells and a Gunblade, so his memory is likely intact and he potentially recognizes her as matron (much like Irvine does). That's where her words "The boy in you wants to come along but the adult in you is telling you to stay away" make a lot of sense - his heart wants to protect "his mother" but his adult brain tells him something is wrong -- but the spell dampens/dissipates these thoughts to a degree. I would imagine their off-screen dynamic something like this. After the tv station incident: "It was a good decision, Seifer. It's good you are with me. You did not run away from anything. You ran towards your dream. That Garden didn't care for your abilities. Disciplinary committee, pah, what is that child's play? Blocking your promotion, again and again. You deserve better. I can give you better. Become my knight and help me free this world." At the parade: "See how everyone is cheering at us? They welcome and respect us and we will get this corrupt president working together with terrorist groups off his post and start a new era. You can help me change the world and protect me from all the evil." After the assassination attempt, prior to prison scene: "Now you see why they never let you advance at Garden. I didn't want to tell you right away, but now you see it for yourself. They're corrupting the minds of their students, making them forget. Do you see how Squall doesnt even remember I'm his matron? How he tried to kill me? At least I have you. You didn't change. I can rely on you. You have not been brainwashed like Squall. See how they are scheming to kill me because I am a witch? SeeD are a corrupt organization. But together with you I will protect the world from their terror." When he eventually realizes that he might have bought into a twisted perspective and taken a wrong turn on top of being robbed of his own agency and being put under her spell and he admits this to himself (off-screen, some point CD3, past the Garden fight and before Lunatic Pandora, possibly because he questioned why Rinoa would tag along with the terrorists without being a brainwashed SeeD), it's too late. He's in too deep and there is no graceful way out left for him anymore. The sorceress will kill him if he betrays her, a military court will execute him if she is defeated or he manages to escape from her. So he "honorably" finishes the last thing he has left - acting on the sorceress' orders and helping her bring about time compression. He will die either way, but this way he can at least go out being part of something big. Kinda in a last bout of sticking it to the man and rebelling against the system that refused him the future he felt he deserved and as the only thing left for him to feasibly do, aside from having either side execute him for anything else.
As something to add, the tours around Balamb Garden with Rinoa can be completely missed if Squall decided to send her into the Selphie's party for the Missile base (as the second party won't return until the boss fight in Fisherman's Horizon). It would also seem to hurt the growth of their relationship if the player did this as well. I just loved the touches they made in having her along though, especially that sequence in responding to Dr. Kadowaki with both warm responses.
It wont hurt the growth at all 🤗. I always send rinoa on the other team. One, I like having an all girls team, and two, the dialogue of when they meet up is super cute! You can even select squall saying he missed her 🥰
@@MysteriousKunoichi50 I used to do that too cause I didn't like rinoa at first. It took a couple of playthroughs for her to grow on me lol!!!! I was a squall and selphie shipper 😅😅😅
@@fallenwing25 I've always been a Squall/Selphie shipper. Lion's Rapture is my shit till this day because even in my very first playthrough, I was secretly hoping Squall and Selphie would get together since they clearly had more chemistry than Squall and Rinoa did. Plus you never get into stupid arguments with Selphie. I was originally a fan of Rinoa when I was a little girl. But the older I got... she started to irritate me more. Then you add to the fact I've met other women similar to Rinoa and her entire character just puts a foul taste in my mouth. Now im trying to perceive her without Squall and she's much more enjoyable to take in. I even enjoy shipping her with Quistis, who unlike Squall, would have wanted someone to open up and confide in. Definitely would have made the game more interesting if that's the route they went instead. 😊 Don't worry, I understand what you're saying but yikes. I just keep Rinoa shipped with Seifer and Quistis ans Squall shipped with almost everyone with Zell and Selphie being his OTPs. 🤣
Love this series - hope they perform well over time and get more exposure. I know super long videos don't really do big numbers but these are great and much appreciated. Making me want to go back and play this again with more perspective.
WAT. I LOVED chocobo hot and cold in FF9. I legitimately think FF9 has the best side content of the entire series. Whenever your sidequests give you stuff useful for the regular gameplay loop, it feels so much more rewarding to me.
This podcast just encapsulates why I love video games so much. I love how Mike and Casen are able to talk about the game itself with such heartfelt passion, while also being able to discuss how its narrative, core theme, and character interactions (and more) relate to real-world dynamics in life. Examples such as how (some) women in Japan view courtship as a challenge being personified in Rinoa, or the theory that there needs to be five good interactions for every one bad interaction as an indication of a healthy relationship (known as The Golden Ratio - discussed in Chapter 6 of the video) I've come to appreciate how games can offer a "window to the world" and can teach you profound aspects about life that we may otherwise not have come across. Or at least give us the onus to discuss such topics past the realm of "review gaming." (aka this game plays well, graphics are gud 8/10) I feel my preference for video games as my favorite form of entertainment, gets validated more and more with this podcast. (and these types of discussions in general) Thanks for your work, gents. And for sharing your passion and insight!
This show is just phenomenal. I love listening to it and I can’t wait to see what you guys cover next! It’s awesome. As far as Raine is concerned, the scene with her ghost was always interesting to me. And I had no idea so much info was hidden in the menus! The second half of disc 2 is probably my favorite part of the game. I love having the garden mobile and exploring, especially going to places like the ruins with Odin.
I have missed your commentary in the past year or so (by my own fault). I am glad you have done this series in this format. Its been a pleasure to listen to.
About the Rinoa thing, during the Galbadia Garden Battle. I believe that was their attempt of the Hollywood "When we survive this, we..." banter that sometimes happens in action movies. Which could have worked, if it was played better. As you mentioned. She is a civilian, who doesn't have experience in this scenario (except her last few days and the one or other battle with a giant monster, Cactus or 8 legged horse riding god), thus she should be more confused and nervous. This is a war scenario. She should be scared and that's combined with the recent pushes should be why she says these unreasonable things, to give her some hope for the future. At the same time, Squall is trying to keep things together, would have brushed her of irritated, till he notices how distraught she is. He would have to take the lead, calm her and give her that hope for a future meeting with the ring, to continue and minimize the problems here. However, as mentioned, the framing would have to be a bit different. They might need a little break since they jumped from battle to battle. Taking a little rest to maybe drink something, before they continue further to the next, etc. If it's put in the right place, this thing could have been a good character building szene.
I had some ideas of how the orphanage twist could have been improved. Maybe instead of having all the kids grow up together, just have Squall and Ellone grow up there. You can still have the GF memory loss, but instead of memories of the orphanage, the other party members forget their childhoods. This would give more weight to the child soldier theme. To be honest, I actually really like the idea that Edea was Squall’s surrogate mother figure that was taken from him by Ultimecia. It’s pretty tragic, considering what happed with Raine and Laguna.
Like they hinted at in this episode, if you read between the lines and dig into the backstory, there's actually a reason Squall, Selphie, Zell, Quistis and Irvine get pushed together by Cid - it's only the substitution of Rinoa for Seifer that diverges from the old orphanage gang and presumably also from Cid's plan. Though, yeah, even just with what we know at the end of disc 2, it's no wonder Squall developed abandonment issues - he lost his parents relatively young, and went to the orphanage, Sis/Ellone left, who was clearly special to him, three of his friends left the orphange to various destinations, and Matron disappeared and turned evil. That left him with Cid, Quistis and Seifer as the only people he knew coming to Balamb Garden. Then he started using GF and forgot the history that shaped his feelings and habits, making them that much harder to question... And then Rinoa comes along and decides to make him her personal project...
A great video series! Best gaming content on youtube in a long while. I love the depth and scope of your analysis, as well as the conversational format. 10/10.
Regarding the missable GFs: The game gives you the 3 GFs at the beginning of the game for each of the 3 characters that you have in battle. Every single additional GF after Ifrit is optional.
what I don't understand is how FF8 did fmv+gameplay interactions that way, 20 years ago, with a PS1 and outriders have to put 2 loading screens for you to jump a gap
Lots of RAM loading of assets, especially music, so they're always instantly loaded and FMVs are just videos so no rendering or animation or anything needed.
The Garden battle was the “season finale” of disc 2 and definitely a highlight of my memory playing FF8 so many years ago. The amount of FMV expertise used resulted in the best looking action sequence in 90s gaming I can think of. I’ll never forget the shot where we run left across an FMV combat zone. However, I think comparing anything in FF8 to the (excellently) gritty Saving Private Ryan felt a bit extreme. FF8’s action scenes, including the prison escape, are not too much goofier than most PG-13 movies with occasional banter or side-drama amidst the life/death situations of the “extras” in the background. From LOTR to Avengers, I think I’m just desensitized to surrounding war carnage while the main characters are dealing with far lighter issues or even humorous interactions during battlefield downtime. That’s probably not a good thing though lol But is there any chance that the party members were urging Squall to help Rinoa NOT exclusively against his other war responsibilities? I’m not sure the dialogue reads like a “1 or the other” situation. Irvine says “It may be too late, but don’t give up until you’re CERTAIN there’s nothing more you can do…I’ll take everyone inside Galbadia. Don’t worry. I know the place like the back of my hand.” And Quistis says “We’ll clear a path. Once Squall arrives, we’ll move in.” I think his teammates are saying “We got this, there’s still time to save her.” Ironically, the risky perseverance to save one person is the plot of Saving Private Ryan. Other highlights include the return of The Landing theme (a top 3 track) and The Oath during Squall’s motivational speech. Damn this soundtrack is incredible.
This analysis is great! Wonderful praises and recaps and explanations of the story, as well as very fair and valid criticisms of a favourite game of mine from childhood. Loving the discussion. Really well researched and well considered stuff. Would love to see more content in this format.
Regarding the romance, and getting into a little bit of Episode 1 and 2 of your analysis: When I was younger and played this, I really identified with Squall because that's how I was, quiet and brooding. I always chose the cold answers for Rinoa because I always wanted something to happen between Squall and Quistis, I was expecting a date/romance scene like what we got in VII.
A lot of cutting room floor design concepts from VII made their way into Parasite Eve and Final Fantasy VIII. VII was initially supposed to take place in modern day New York (Parasite Eve) where you fight an evil sorceress (Final Fantasy VIII). That evil sorceress ended up turning into an ancient alien in the form of Jenova, which was initially the name given to the power innate within people that allowed them to control magic before it was the name applied to the "Calamity from the Skies". So they reapplied those concepts elsewhere. Instead of New York, VII got Midgar. Instead of sorceress Edea, Adel, Ultimecia etc. VII got Jenova. Watching the trailers for Final Fantasy XV back in the day reminded me a lot of the culmination of this "what if" scenario where those ideas weren't scrapped and were instead applied to a modern day Final Fantasy setting.
@@Rhomagus I knew about edea but didnt know about parasite eve. Thank you! I only played a little of it cause I borrowed it from a friend but the discs were so scratched that I couldn't get anywhere 😭
@@fallenwing25 The double edged sword of non-physical media. Good thing is, no information is saved on a disc. The bad thing is, that no information is saved on a disc.
I agree about the Irvine assassination thing. I feel like if Irvine “I can’t shoot her, she was like a mother to me”. He could mix that in with “I’m such a screwup” type stuff, where the player wouldn’t be sure if he was under the influence of the Sorceress’s power, or he had the yips, or they had some mysterious history together. Then when he fires the shot he could whisper “I’m sorry, Matron”.
I would also like to note that many little tidbits of plot relevant info are also hidden in Scan descriptions, and Scan is really good in the game in general. Thank you for your thoughts and analysis, even with FFVIII being my favourite game, I actually learn some new information about it: I didn't know that you could find Ellone before White Seed ship arrival for example.
That plot twist scene... I literally took the disc out of my Playstation after I saw it, put it back in the case, and went to the shop to sell it. I was so upset at the lack of foreshadowing (or, I guess more accurately, the lack of guaranteed foreshadowing, as I completely missed all those optional hints) and how ridiculous the idea was on the surface that it just completely broke my suspension of disbelief in the game so I couldn't continue. The worst part was that it upset me so much at the time that I didn't play any more Final Fantasy games except Tactics (and its sequels) for literal decades. All that said, I am very grateful for this podcast series as it is truly giving me a much better appreciation for this game that I otherwise would have had nothing but bad memories of. Knowing now what the developers intended with the story, and how there was indeed some hints thrown about that I just missed, it makes me want to see a remake of this game that fixes some of that so it sells itself better to the audience. Because they way yall are discussing it, it really does sound like there's an amazing game hiding underneath all of it, and I wish I'd been able to play THAT game.
Yesss. I've played ff8 once a year since I got it back in 2000 and I am STILL finding little gems in it that I havent discovered before. Of course majority of us dont want to talk to NPCs all day but they give a lot of info too. ❤
This is probably the one single point that makes FF8 the worst FF game for me. It's so dumb. And yes, I've finished the game 3 times... in spite of this scene. The point of a plot twist is that it changes things. Either: it changes what is going to happen, or it changes your perspective on what has already happened. This does neither...
Gamers who are obviously not philosophy students vaguely recalling the trolly problem @ 2:45:38 , lol :-) Great video. I've really been enjoying this series, as 8 has long been a favorite game of mine. You're hitting basically every point on the head. Keep up the great work
Regarding the seemingly out-of-place scene between Squall and Rinoa during the Garden battle, I understand the criticism the two of you made. At the same time, this is consistent with Rinoa, as you mentioned, because like Seifer, she has these childish, romantic fantasies that skew her perception of the gravity of what's going on around her. And this is something that seems almost completely incomprehensible to Squall, who has been systematically avoiding forming bonds with others because, on one end, he doesn't want to lose someone close to him like he lost Ellone when she left Matron's orphanage, and on the other, because he knows he will feel compelled to care for them and this care might lead him to more trolley problems. And while Squall was more dismissive of Rinoa during the Timber mission, by the time of the Garden battle, he is now responsible for the entire facility. This burden is terribly heavy for him to bear, and Rinoa's light-heartedness gives him room to just be a 17-year-old with his own adolescent worries. And while Squall might feel some embarrassment about this (as evidenced by his shame, looking back on his past self), the truth is that his responsibility is on the verge of making him crack and Rinoa's the only one who consistently manages to keep Squall connected to his own humanity, even in dark moments. The rest of the party probably realizes this, too, and this is likely why they are so insistent on sending him to save Rinoa. No one else truly connects with him, and if he winds up alone again, he'll just burn out. Part of him realizes this too. He never says that he doesn't want to save her; he feels responsible for everyone and considers saving Rinoa like something selfish. The thing is, Squall cannot possibly save everyone and he can't be at all places at once. At the same time, the others remind him that he's not alone, that there are other SeeDs to help coordinate the defense. Squall doesn't need to be everywhere at once and the party insists on having him assume the burden of caring for the one person who had no business being involved in that conflict. Can you imagine the guilt he would've felt if Rinoa had died while he did nothing to save her, knowing how guilty he felt for losing her a while later in spite of going in to save her? The truth of the matter is that having Rinoa around is emotional self-care for Squall and this is why he keeps returning to her. He doesn't fully realize how much she means to him until the end of Disc Two, and the start of Disc Three shows exactly how isolated he's become without her. He could've asked the party to help him find a way to save her from the Sorceress, but he decides to go solo nonetheless.
Regaurding the role of sorceress and how its passed on. I know you started Stormlight archive. It's worth getting into Warbreaker and the Role of the God King Susebron and the peace givers treasure as a great comparison to good fantasy writing. You know modern Square enix looking at these games knew we didn't want to do that repetitive grinding. I feel no guilt using the 3x speed and encounter none functions in the prison once i got the things i want.
You guys did a really good job explaining Edea’s and CId’s plan. Very good perspective. As a girl who Absolutely adores FF8 I always had good intuition of what responses to give squall. Therefore the story of their relationship was always very natural to me. I always kind of balance it out. It was never all warm or all cold. I feel like this game was very much designed for people who are more in tune with the right side of their brain. If you over analyze and are too left brained about it you’re not gonna get the most out of the experience this game gives you. It’s a very emotional and spiritual experience, and is such a creative masterpiece. Every moment of this game speaks to my soul until this day.
here's to being horrified that there aren't more people like you and me singing this from mountaintops. this game was and still is, even moreso, the synchronistic armature running my archetypal meta-narrative. if i get to choose which delusion to believe in, MK-ultra conspiracy style, it's gotta be this one. except it's backwards, i was a sorceress BEFORE i met the manifestation of squall/laguna and i played this game 4 times before i even came around to living in the god realms. (i'll stop there; i know how annoying it can sound when someone's talking about their own mythopoetic madness on the internet or elsewhere, lol)
Good work as always if memory serves raine dies 17 years prior to the games main story it was recent which is important but not gonna spoil it here hopefully you will talk about in disc 3 towards the end. Something I remembered from episode 1 forgot to mention in talking about how young these characters are being soldiers. I believe because of constant wars the sorcerer war with Esther, then the radio waves going dark or static is a big deal could you imagine not being able to communicate with neighbours could lead to famines or more wars, then the galbadia increasing its territory (more wars) on top of all that it would be understandable if a lot of adults from 20-40 die leaving the elderly and young children. Setting up gardens as orphanages to train new soldiers which links to something in disc 3. This would make sense but isn’t installed well in the lore like ff13,ff15 doesn’t do well either ff10 does for different reasons. The reason I believe riona is the one that doesn’t want to kill matron, because she has lost her mother and that loss at 5 was huge on her family they (squall and co) don’t know that loss either they don’t remember her or as orphanes don’t know what that loss means and the effect it has. Squall character he is my favourite Shakespeare says “ Some are born great, Some achieve greatness and Some have Greatness thrust upon them”. Squall not only has it thrust upon him but never wanted it poor guy.
New to the channel. I just watched this episode but on the Resonant Arc channel lol. It will be cool to see other games get this same in-depth analysis as FFVIII. FVIII is my favourite Final Fantasy so that is how I ended up here. Cheers!
Regarding Seifer and the extent to which he was magically manipulated by Edea/Ultimecia, the way I look at it, it's kind of like the way people are radicalized in real life, except with a little supernatural kicker to set it in. Seifer is passionate, and has dreams of grandeur, but his failure to graduate as a SeeD when his sociopathic rival and the chicken-wuss pass with flying colors begins to instill in him an inferiority complex that alienates him further from his fellow classmates, except for Fujin and Raijin (who are loyal to a fault). Sure, the slow clap he gives Squall, Zell, and Selphie might seem like some form of begrudging respect, but I think it's mostly because he could no longer pretend to be better than them. He couldn't very well bully them now that everyone else has acknowledged them as superior. If he ran and snubbed them, he would just be acknowledging his own weakness in front of all his fellow classmates. So, to save face, he claps and begrudgingly takes the high road. But he's extremely fragile at this point. So then comes the Timber mission. As Deling begins the first broadcast in 17 years, Seifer pops in, grabs the President, and holds his gunblade to his captive's neck. Quistis warns the Galbadian soldiers to be careful as they'll just provoke Seifer. A few minutes later, when the Timber team joins them, we find out that Seifer broke out of the disciplinary room and on his own initiative went to Timber with the intent to help Rinoa in his own way (this is not said directly, but implied by Zell). Quistis was trying to stop him, but couldn't which is why she asks Squall and the others to help her. Zell opens his big mouth and reveals that they're all associated with Garden. At that point, Seifer has a big bullseye on his head as only he and Squall are gunblade specialists at Balamb Garden and he directly threatened the President's life. He's furious at Zell, tells Quistis and Squall to deal with the mess, and slowly backs away with his hostage, clearly feeling cornered and without a plan. So the Sorceress comes in and starts talking down to him, telling him he's a little boy, that he's confused and cannot make up his own mind, doesn't know the right answer (all of which are true, though he's mostly a boy by virtue of being immature in his actions). At the same time, she recognizes his predicament and his need for help. She infantilizes him (which plays into the children of fate imagery) and he argues with her that he is NOT a boy. So she then gives him an opportunity to prove himself, to abandon his childhood and come with her to a place of no return (adulthood, which sets him apart from the children of fate). So there he is, feeling abandoned by his classmates, completely isolated, quite possibly risking his life if he doesn't find a way out, and you have the Sorceress who offers him two things he needs: a way out and a chance to prove himself. Of course, he's not entirely convinced, and it's obvious that Edea exerts some kind of magical influence as Seifer just releases Deling, turns to Squall and the others and waves his gunblade goodbye to them, almost mechanically, before exiting the way the Sorceress came in. What happens next? When the team reaches Galbadia Garden, they find out that Garden will throw Seifer under the bus. So going back to Garden is not an option for him. If he decides to run from the Sorceress, then Galbadia will do him in for his attempt on the President's life. He's ripe for psychological manipulation, and who better in Ultimecia's eyes to fight SeeD than a knight who was abandoned by Garden? After that, Seifer is pretty much doomed as he needs to find a way to rationalize his new way of life, the same way radicalized people rationalize their actions. To a point, Seifer becomes the noble knight defending the persecuted Sorceress (the persecution being at the root of the self-fulfilling prophecy of FF8). The smirch of his attempt on the President's life goes away when Edea kills Deling and Seifer takes his place at her side in a glorious parade across the streets of the Galbadian capital. He finally got what he wanted: recognition and a worthy cause. At that point, the Sorceress doesn't really need to resort to magic to manipulate him. He'll rationalize all the actions he does because doing otherwise would completely shatter his ego. Knights are noble and protect the innocent, whereas mercenaries and assassins will kill for money. Looking at things from this perspective, who's really the evil one? The passionate knight defending his Lady or the sociopath bent on murdering her? When Irvine fails to go through with the assassination attempt, he's clearly troubled by the moral implications of the murder, but Squall decides to go through with it. Seifer doesn't go out of his way to seek out Squall; he no longer cares about his infantile rivarly. It's Squall that brings the fight to Seifer and Edea. And Seifer then has all the evidence he needs to corroborate Edea's claims that SeeD wants to kill her. Which, in turn, justifies his torture of Squall and the attack on Balamb Garden.
Something I always found interesting was that the way you get Diablos almost felt like it was a cut tutorial boss intended to teach you the merits of draw casting, since diablos (if you're playing the game normally and inspect the lamp as soon as you get it) is REALLY HARD unless you drawcast demi on him, the boss even rewards you for draw casting demi on him by casting curaga on you after you hit him with his own spell.
That story referred to near the end is commonly known as the "Trolley Problem", though it's usually presented as a dilemma with no widely-accepted correct solution rather than trying to present a specific outcome as the right answer. The standard version is that a runaway streetcar/trolley is heading for disaster - if you do nothing, then a group of five people will be killed. However, you happen to be standing next to a switch, which you happen to know will divert the trolley onto another line, saving the lives of those five people, but if you do so, the trolley will kill one person instead, and that will be your fault. Do you do nothing and allow five people to die, or do you take action and deliberately kill one person? The difficulty of the problem can be increased by reframing it: there are five people all of whom are in need of organ transplants to save their lives (assume they're blameless victims of a terrorist attack or something, meaning they're otherwise healthy aside from that one damaged organ), and there is one person who happens to be a perfect donor for each of the five, but would not survive the organ donation process. Should that one person be cut up to save the five?
I just realised the gf plot points are recycled with sin, aeons, and the finale of ffx and they actually put more effort into putting it in plain sight. I also see why i understood Tenet so well. Id already dealt with this kind of plot. I was also reminded of back to the future with Zells hoverboard. I wonder if at one point they had considered using it in the train heist. But they got denied copyright or something. Also some terminator themes
Regarding Squall's personality: I think the main problem is that Squall just isn't the main character type of person. Even though he is written very well and realistically for that type of person, that type of person just isn't generally a "main character", specifically because he is so closed off and standoffish and very introverted. That's why a lot of people hate him, because he's so cold and difficult to relate to. His character is the type that a "normal" main character protagonist would meet and have as a side party member, and eventually bring out of his shell and becomes a loyal and reliable friend. But that personality type rarely takes center stage.
Haven't finished the podcast series yet, but wanted to mention something I just thought of that is to the discussion so far. (So I'm not sure if you guys mention it later or not) About the changing the past plot that you mention briefly at the beginning, what I like is that it is ACTUALLY represented in the gameplay, but goes completely unnoticed unless you do repeat playthroughs. Before EACH flashback scene there is a timber maniacs magazine you can find that relates directly to the event you are about to witness with Laguna. Whether or not you find the magazine has VERY subtle changes to the events that transpire. For example, in the first flashback, the end of the conversation with Julia will change depending on whether you find the magazine. A theory that just popped into my mind is that it is almost like the person causing the flashbacks (which we don't find out until later) is purposely leaving the old timber maniacs magazines around to try and subtly change the past. I would have to play through the game again paying specific attention to that or even noting the exact changes that occur when Squall and co have read the magazine and have vague knowledge of what they are witnessing to really see if that could be the case.
40:00 At that point Seifer was "executed" by official announcement. So then that might depend on if he knows that everyone else thought he was dead or not
2:24:50 : it has to do with love and friendship. It's kind of the motif to the game. It anchors people together in reality. They remember even though the GFs messed with their memories because of the love they shared. The same reason why squall, rinoa and everyone is able to come back from the time compression.
If there's one thing I really got out of listening to this podcast as a way to pass time for some of the non-brain related work, I realized how funny this game is. I didn't think about it at the time despite being a huge fan of comedy tv shows, but this likely played a huge part in why I liked FF8 way better than a lot of people. Most notably I found it much more interesting than FF7, which was my first FF and at the time absolutely blew my mind. I think the humor really helps in making me like the characters. This is one of the few games I actually enjoyed using everyone in the party rather than a fixed favorites like the other games. I usually think of Lunar series or Chrono Cross as being more comedic jrpgs, but FF8 is definitely underrated in this aspect, because the comedy is not usually brought up for this game.
One note about about your criticism of the garden battle and the characters indifference to the chaos and death around them. It feels a bit more forgivable in a world where 'damage' in general is scaled differently. When you consider that people in this universe survive getting lit on fire, stuck by lightning, impaled with ice spikes, and (in combat) brushing off gunshots and explosives to the face. The healing abilities in this world would also help explain why there is such a blase attitude towards such obvious carnage. Also I think that destruction in general is also a more common occurrence. There is a flying school that has a garden with a T Rex in it, I'm sure property damage is pretty much expected in their world.
Since we started with the Laguna Dream Sequence, I recall this is the 2nd time we played Laguna in FF8 if I'm not mistaken. One of the things that stuck with me is with FF8, I remember I wanted to defeat that demon in the lamp so badly and I couldn't beat it with Squall's party on Disc 1. But I vaguely recall finally succeeding when I was in Laguna's party. This was in my first playthrough of the game over 2 decades ago and I just stumbled along. But that sense of accomplishment obtaining diablos and defeating that demon/creature gave me such purpose to continue playing through eventhough I kept losing to it.
27:12 So about this statement (maybe you cover this in a later episode) . I'm midway through Disc 3 and noticed the Information entry for "Moomba" says they remember people by tasting their blood. If you recall, during one of the Laguna "dream" sequences right before the prison escape, Laguna and Co. jump off the cliff to escape. Later, we found out Luguna was rescued by Moombas and brought to the Shumi village to recover. I like the idea that the Moombas ended up tasting Lagunas blood while helping him recover to "remember" him. And so when squall is captured and being tortured, they perhaps also tasted Squalls blood and from that, can determine there is a familial tie between Squall and Laguna. A bit of a stretch maybe? But they sort of normalize the Moomba "blood tasting" thing without making it seem like too detrimental/outlandish of a concept. And I like the idea of having additional nods to Squall and Laguna being related. Its interesting they didnt feel the need 100% confirm this through dialogue.
49:30 this foreshadowing is so cool because the group you send to the base has comments (I think Rinoa says something like this): "did Squall put me in this group because he thought we'd die?" Never connected that to Squall's relative hesitation
@ResonantArc Keep up the great work! These videos are so insightful. Playing this game again as an adult gives so much more meaning and context to the story.
I like that this is done somewhat like a book club, makes me think I should start playing the game and get to the proper place before I watch part 4. It's been so long since I played this game, might be worthwhile to give it a go
I'd want to listen to these two discuss any piece of fiction. So many great observations -- some that I didn't fully make myself and others I did but that are articulated so well here that I still feel like I'm taking something more away from it. I started FF8 (for the third or fouth time since I've owned it) when my work shut down last March and got the farthest I ever did -- to about this point -- but somehow I got too busy to finish once again and this podcast is really making me want to go back and make sure I play through the whole thing this time. Such a great listen!
Yes. We are moving the podcast from the Archive channel back to the main channel. These rereleases are catching people up as we move to the release of the final episode.
FF8 has always been my favorite FF. It has it's flaws, but the characters have always carried it for me. I find more people I meet face to face admit loving this game than generally do online. As a teenager I wanted to be more like Squall, even wore a Griever pendant a lot in early college. I realized in my late twenties to early thirties that I had become more like Laguna. No leg cramps though.
I love you guys analytical banter. As a kid playing this game I didn't see all this. Im a hardcore FF fan. It just was fun and cool to play and experience. As adults it makes sense to see all the flaws. What resonance with til this day was the dialogue at the last battle.
I love these videos and I love FF8! What Squall and co. are (unintentionally) doing to Laguna, Ward and Kiros is a weaker version of what Ultimecia is doing to Edea and Rinoa.
36:16 I like to compare what happens with Seifer when he's Edea's knight, to what happened to Vegeta when he turned Majin. Both are under a spell, however, they both are willingly and complicit in their actions. Seifer willingly gets manipulated by Edea in order to fulfill his dream, Vegeta willingly becomes Majin to return to the cold black hearted Vegeta.
That ending scene with Galbadia Garden they speak towards the end of the episode... I'll agree in that it is DEFINITELY extremely well directed and, for the era---> DEFINITELY God Tier. Greatest action set piece in gaming history, however----- Uh-Uh. THAT title goes to Witcher 3, when ALL of Geralt's, whom you have been strengthening your bond with, come to fight-- FOR YOU-- to stave off an alien invasion, led by a king trying to kill his daughter. Nothing-- NO-THING,has EVER captured me like THAT entire sequence. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you get to watch the SICKEST outcome if you diligently put in the time hours prior to this point. So damn good
Regarding everyone pestering Squall during the battle, it would been better for Squall's character arch if instead, they showed that Squall was stressed out and was trying to do everything himself, but the party members kept volunteering to take care of X or Y task, or maybe the party already anticipates his needs. That way they'd be reinforcing that he can count on them, and it's okay to depend on others.
49:50 I actually stopped bringing rinoa to balamb with me. I send her to the missile base mission with selphie and quistis. It doesnt affect the relationship of rinoa and squall. I do that for the cute dialogue when they meet back up in fisherman's horizon. You can even select squall saying he missed her and it that makes rinoa blush and run away. Toooo cute ❤
My take on the Squall Rinoa relationship and the 'added value' of dialogue choices: If, as a player, you are consistently choosing the standoffish responses and rejecting her in a cold way at every turn you are "playing" Squall accurately. As you learn about Squal you see more, as you you discussed here, how he is an emotional individual who presents 'how I feel doesn't matter'. Sometimes being cold is shown as the reasonable response, such as the disc 1 Timber mission. As the game progresses there will be cold responses that are reasonable. Once you are shown that wound Squall has it begins to justify the warmer approach for some responses. Take trying to console Selphie. He is trying now...but he just isn't there yet. He is way too lacking in emotional intelligence. However at some point in the story it is no longer "playing" Squal accurately to select cold responses. I view this not as a benefit to the game but to the player. If all you ever do is act cold and they become a thing anyways...well that is a bad message and seems to justify toxic relationships (he, probably jokingly, tries to hit her after all). It feels wrong narratively which, at least for me, encourages a reexamination of what is going on and what I am missing. I should note though that there are many poorly written sections like the Error Factor and what not that really hindered me approaching this story in good faith.
Funny thing about the Error Ratio thing: other than plot reasons, it wasn't necessary to save Balamb as the school conveniently has flight capabilities, increasing the Error Ratio or Spread ratio or whatever increases the spread of area being damaged, with ends up dealing more damage to Balamb Island and even risking hitting Balamb town, while making harder for the Garden to dodge the missiles, as they now end up hitting a wider area, and the CG of failure in the Balamb Scenario shows all missiles hitting the same area anyway.
I have a bunch of theories about the memory thing but I reckon that perhaps the GFs don't "erase" memories; rather they "suppress" them. But for the most part I agree that the build up to the orphanage revelation and what followed was really poorly executed. 13yo me didn't get this until I looked it up online, even though I had read about the GF memory loss thing and accounted for Irvine's situation. Also going back to the part about Squall and Rinoa's relationship being unbelievable if you pick all the cold options: as a woman born and raised in the West I agree that most women wouldn't put up with such cold behaviour, and as a 13yo if I had chosen the cold options I'd have been massively confused. But also as someone who's been in an abusive relationship as an adult I can see why Rinoa would keep trying to find that gold spark within Squall. Humans are... weird.
From a female perspective, about women being attracted to “bad boy” , in this case of ff8, yes Squall is the broken man project that some women would want to fix and make these men put down their walls, but women also attracted to the possibilities of what a man is capable of, in this case Rinoa views him as a capable accomplished person (SeeD, leader of Garden, strong...etc) imo, so she starts pursue him as a potential love interest because she saw something in him. And throughout the game her pov shifts towards him, and yes if you keep rebuffing her with the other options in their interactions, I don’t think their romance would’ve blossomed, but in disc 3 when he realizes how much she means to him, women can forgive their love interest cold and callous demeanors because now he is showing her what she wanted. Hope this makes sense 😂
Ngl, I wouldn't have forgiven Squall if he rebuffed me if you choose the negative options. Lol It kinda just shows the lack of self-worth women have if they think that this sort of relationship has any merit, if at all. This is why I can only really give this relationship a pass for those that can only view this under the context of a high school only romance and not something long term.
@@MysteriousKunoichi50 agreed LOL I would've forgiven him too, and I would also give their relationship a pass because knowing their age and highschool settings, how many of us waited for our crush to finally notice us XD, which if you ask me it's a very Japanese troupe, Squall being Tsundere af too
@@samianka I stopped subscribing to the notion of getting my crush to notice me when I was mid-high school. After that and into college, a man, woman or anyone would have to do something worthy of me noticing them. The funny thing is, I used to identify with the tsundere trope a lot when I was younger. Thats why I identified pretty hard with Squall. But honestly? My favorite version or interpretation of Squall is after the game, after he dumps Rinoa (which let's face it, their relationship is pretty superficial) and he is just getting to know himself further. He's more relaxed, matured and comfortable in his own skin than in the skin he thinks everyone wants him in. I won't discredit Rinoa because at the very least, she did the hardwork no one else would have done. The way it was done gives me hives but! Squall can enjoy being authentically himself and embracing the things he missed out on. And we love that for him! 🥰
Women are flighty and make irrational decisions. "Bad boys" almost always end up being liabilities and the outward persona they put on is often a hollow bravado.
Man if they remake ff8 someday, I hope they take in consideration key plot points and devices that you talk about here. Because if some story beats were made differently, it would be much better.
I think about the joke in the prison escape and the jarring feeling about the serious in squall scene and joke in the other would be that the dev doesn't want to make heavy and dark story. It is to lighten the mood. From what you research in episode 1, it is pretty clear that the dev motive for the games.
It is stated at the beginning of disc 2 that Julia married Rinoa's father after he comforted her when Laguna didn't return from war, Kiros told him this at the bar.
I wonder if the Error Ratio thing was also written like that (in English) in the original Japanese version. Sometimes Japanese developers use these terms in English that they don't really understand or don't really care about just to look cool (most Japanese players wouldn't understand it anyway, especially at the time) and then it gets through localization as it could be a chore (again, especially at the time) to mess with pre-rendered stuff.
The text on the missile control panel is in English no matter which translation you play. It's even displayed in English in the French version, despite that one changing all the signs in the prerendered Garden backgrounds (signs for the library now read "bibliothèque" etc.) This makes me suspect it was some kinda stylistic choice.
I do agree with you about the lifestyle of the people of Fisherman's Horizon - for many of them, it's all that they actually have left, this peaceful existence. The part where they don't fight is both the means AND the goal, regardless of the consequences. But I was just ever-so-slightly disappointed that you didn't mention a conversation you can have with one of the guys who I think operates the elevator or something. It only happens if you return to Fisherman's Horizon while you have only Irvine (even Squall has left the party). And the guy gives Irvine a piece of his mind about SEED and strikes a very black and white "fighting is always bad" argument. And the only thing Irvine says is, "That's who we are. And you, judging us... Who are YOU?" And the conversation ends because the guy can't say anything to that. I'm not sure why, but that moment stuck with me harder than anything else in this whole game.
About Seifer in the prison, to my mind it's not especially magic from Edea that makes him that bad, but it's his "evil potential" which is growing because the situation leads him to act this way. That's what I think But you mentioned the evil purple haze in Timber and that's interesting ☺️
Regarding the scene where Squall playfights with Rinoa, they literally go to a military training academy for their upbringing, it would be normal for them to spar with one another...Rinoa isn't from a garden but she is an actual rebel who clearly fights.
I think what a lot of people seem to forget when it comes to the silliness of FF 8 is that some there were some mature themes, the game is still primarily aimed at kids. Like preteen and above. Like think of Avatar and the sheer amount of mature themes throughout the series, then go back to Aang and the crew doing a number of silly sh** despite the stakes. Fully agree that Irvine should've dropped the setup bomb during the assassination mission. But I overall think their resolve to kill Edea made sense. That was what they trained to do and even knowing what they knew didn't change the very reason they were created for and I never saw it as them making that decision easily, but resigning themselves to the fact that if she's going to be killed, it might as well be them.
so this is from the perspective of playing it as a somewhat angsty teen that related to squall a decent amount. the galbadia fight didn't bother me at all with rinoa as far as i remember, possibly because i didn't think that deeply about it and how ridiculous it would be "realistically." i played games to escape reality so it was kind of easy to just go with it and immerse myself in them and accept the situations. it barely crossed my mind that it's not the best time to deal w/ her hitting on you after that battle scene, like i acknowledged it and went through the dialogue faster, maybe artificially creating a sense of urgency thinking "yeah i get it rinoa but we gotta gtfo of here though!" i dunno i guess it was a lot easier for me to ignore how unrealistic this would be and maintain my suspension of disbelief or whatever you wanna call it. this was also the first ff game i ever played and maybe my first rpg so i was really into it. (they probably also chose to insert a life and death situation here and the romance stuff with her one last time since right after this you lose her w/ the sorceress situation. to drill it in that it was your last opportunity to open up and she's gone i guess. i'm sure they could have done it better but who knows how much more they had to cut from the game like w/ laguna) it was stressful as hell cause there was the whole fight and everyone telling you to do different things all while trying to save rinoa. obviously i didn't want her to die and leaning more into the romance storyline i suppose that was a bigger priority for me so i'm like yeah i need to go freakin get her, obviously! everyone else is fighting too so me going to save her, in my mind, wouldn't have any affect on the outcome of the battle. and for that trolley problem, you put rinoa (or someone you personally care about and have history with) on one track and 20 people you don't really know on the other, i'm saving rinoa lol. sorry/not sorry to the 20 people
One of the many many thematic clashes of FFVIII is that the story wants to be this light-hearted romantic comedy and a relatable high school romp. Then it ends up having themes of loss, war, fate, and child soldiers. You know, as Final Fantasy do.
James I see that it is light-hearted and I guess that's fine but it's not epic. I guess it's bad writing or something but everyone just say really dumb things and act like kids cartoons. FF7 and FF9 both feel epic like star wars or lord of the rings. I think yoshinori kitase is just not a good fit for directing ff.
@@alanlee67 How is he not a good fit for directing FF? He directed FFVI, VII, VIII, and X, some of the best-selling and most wildly popular games in the series.
@@Y-two-K They touched on this in other podcast eps that Sakaguchi was the producer on 6 and 7 and was pretty hands on with the process. While with 8, Sakaguchi was working on 9 so Kitase was left to his own free reins to do whatever he wanted with 8. I forgot what they said about 10. Kitase is like Nomura for me, he's good when you have someone else that can rein him in.
@@SuperHiddenaccount Yeah that's fair, I guess. I think Kitase is competent enough, personally, but he does seem to work best when his scope is smaller and someone else is overseeing the big stuff.
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. Laguna Dream Sequence #3 (1:33)
3. D-District Prison (20:55)
4. Galbadian Missile Base (48:21)
5. Balamb Garden Civil War (1:01:06)
6. Thoughts On How Squall And Rinoa's Romance Develops (1:11:43)
7. Ellone (1:27:30)
8. The Garden Master Norg (1:30:06)
9. The White SeeDs (1:33:32)
10. Fisherman's Horizon (1:35:34)
11. The Source Of Squall's Abandonment Trauma (1:43:59)
12. Side Content (1:52:40)
13. Balamb Village Siege and Orphanage Scene Plotwist (2:04:36)
14. Battle Against Galbadia Garden (2:30:21)
15. Battle Against Sorceress Edea and Seifer (2:46:54)
Thank you so much for doing this guys. It means so much to me, and makes me surprisingly emotional to hear people talk about these games so seriously and lovingly.
This was my favorite FF growing up, and it gets so much criticism on the internet that I began to believe that it was a bad game, but now thanks to these podcasts I feel vindicated and might even pick it up again.
Objectively, it's definitely not a bad game. A lot of criticism arises from comparisons to 7 and 9... Even in that context, there's a lot that 8 pioneered and did well that the other games didn't. For me, the story in 7 was incredible and still, 8 felt like a progression and improvement. A 9/10 when ppl are expecting an 11/10 doesn't make for a bad game. It's a great game
You should go back and play the game. Don't worry what anyone else thinks. I'm still hoping for an HD remake
I have friends who hate the game because they didnt read the junction tutorial. sigh.
@@Clockwork0nions when I first played it I played in Japanese with a guide lol
@@agentorangecb1 I hope there's never an HD remake. They'd just make it like FF7R and that's not a remake. that's a rewriting.
this channel's analyses are so excellent and well-researched, so much that when mike comes in to correct himself he really breaks up the flow and i wish he'd post it as an addendum because nobody is questioning his original analysis. because it's already excellent.
I fell in love with Rinoa almost IMMEDIATELY as a young introverted (and admittedly lonely) high schooler when I first played this game. And I related A LOT to the way Squall thought and felt. So I was almost compelled to keep everyone at arm's length.....except for her. So anytime I was allowed to be kind(ish) to her, I leaped at the opportunity. So when the confession finally happens much later on (I won't spoil how), it was a relief and it was something I'd wanted for them both because I'd kind of wanted it for myself. And it felt natural and well telegraphed.
I agree with you that, even though I'm well aware of the Japanese cultural romantizing of mean-spirited guy getting the good-natured girl, I can't fully fathom how Rinoa could want a version of Squall who never showed her any kindness. And more to the point, I wouldn't have wanted her to want someone who treated her like that.
Amazing seeing people talk in depth about this game. This is why I can play it over and over. Amazing characters and story
Hell yeah! I just finished Episode 2 last night when I was editing for a client. VERY happy to see Episode 3 today! Woo!
Simple fixes for the whole tonal clusterfuck of the Galbadia Garden fight; move the Griever scene with the ring to either Fisherman's Horizon during the "Festival" or during the trip to Trabia Garden, but before heading to Galbadia Garden. Maybe have it in a scene directly before the fight, just before Galbadia Garden is seen on the Balamb sensors/viewport/whatever. Then shorten the length of time between Rinoa falling and getting rescued. The length of time she is hanging is ridiculous. And finally, don't have *everyone* jumping down Squall's throat to save Rinoa. Split it up roughly 50/50, so you've got maybe Selphie and Irvine hounding him to rescue her while Zell and Quistis hound him to focus on everything else. Balance it so he's getting hounded from all sides pulling in different directions. The teenage angst and flirting in the *middle of a war* is... absurd.
If you send Rinoa to the Missle Base, when she and Squall reunite they have a really cute scene where you can choose for Squall to be happy to see her and there's a very cute exchange between them.
Definitely the best take on the Orphanage scene I've heard. It's all in the execution, and just a few minor tweaks would've at least pulled it out of the hole of total randomness for many. More emphasis should've been put on the Cid/Edea angle and Irvine's revelation should've been handled less awkwardly.
One of my favorite parts of FF8 back in the day was actually connecting the dots between the main characters without explicitly being told. The Eyes On Me + Julia + Rinoa connections were particularly neat to find out, and it slightly reminds me of the pleasures while piecing Bloodborne's lore together through NPCs & items. Not that I think FF8 should've kept ALL its breadcrumbs subtle and hidden (i.e. GF memory), but it's a factor that contributes to how divisive the game can be as Casen expresses around 02:03:25 and on.
Loving these podcasts! Inspired me to pick up ff8 again!
I left off at tomb of the unknown king so I'm not far off.
Keep it up!
On the topic of Seifer:
Thanks for the huge chunk of interjection about Seifer and his agency. I'm in the camp he's "under her control" after that tv station magical effect and she's distorting his reality - both magically (see her suggestion to the Deling City crowd and the purple veil), but also plain normally gaslighting him a good bit.
This is purely my own speculation and interpretation: He is never seen using any GF but instead fights with fire spells and a Gunblade, so his memory is likely intact and he potentially recognizes her as matron (much like Irvine does). That's where her words "The boy in you wants to come along but the adult in you is telling you to stay away" make a lot of sense - his heart wants to protect "his mother" but his adult brain tells him something is wrong -- but the spell dampens/dissipates these thoughts to a degree.
I would imagine their off-screen dynamic something like this.
After the tv station incident:
"It was a good decision, Seifer. It's good you are with me. You did not run away from anything. You ran towards your dream. That Garden didn't care for your abilities. Disciplinary committee, pah, what is that child's play? Blocking your promotion, again and again. You deserve better. I can give you better. Become my knight and help me free this world."
At the parade:
"See how everyone is cheering at us? They welcome and respect us and we will get this corrupt president working together with terrorist groups off his post and start a new era. You can help me change the world and protect me from all the evil."
After the assassination attempt, prior to prison scene:
"Now you see why they never let you advance at Garden. I didn't want to tell you right away, but now you see it for yourself. They're corrupting the minds of their students, making them forget. Do you see how Squall doesnt even remember I'm his matron? How he tried to kill me? At least I have you. You didn't change. I can rely on you. You have not been brainwashed like Squall. See how they are scheming to kill me because I am a witch? SeeD are a corrupt organization. But together with you I will protect the world from their terror."
When he eventually realizes that he might have bought into a twisted perspective and taken a wrong turn on top of being robbed of his own agency and being put under her spell and he admits this to himself (off-screen, some point CD3, past the Garden fight and before Lunatic Pandora, possibly because he questioned why Rinoa would tag along with the terrorists without being a brainwashed SeeD), it's too late.
He's in too deep and there is no graceful way out left for him anymore. The sorceress will kill him if he betrays her, a military court will execute him if she is defeated or he manages to escape from her.
So he "honorably" finishes the last thing he has left - acting on the sorceress' orders and helping her bring about time compression. He will die either way, but this way he can at least go out being part of something big. Kinda in a last bout of sticking it to the man and rebelling against the system that refused him the future he felt he deserved and as the only thing left for him to feasibly do, aside from having either side execute him for anything else.
Yessssss. I almost got depressed because I'm almost done episode 2. Lets gooooo
As something to add, the tours around Balamb Garden with Rinoa can be completely missed if Squall decided to send her into the Selphie's party for the Missile base (as the second party won't return until the boss fight in Fisherman's Horizon). It would also seem to hurt the growth of their relationship if the player did this as well. I just loved the touches they made in having her along though, especially that sequence in responding to Dr. Kadowaki with both warm responses.
It wont hurt the growth at all 🤗. I always send rinoa on the other team. One, I like having an all girls team, and two, the dialogue of when they meet up is super cute! You can even select squall saying he missed her 🥰
@@fallenwing25 You can also skip that scene entirely too, by just walking away. Which is what I do. LMAO
@@MysteriousKunoichi50 I used to do that too cause I didn't like rinoa at first. It took a couple of playthroughs for her to grow on me lol!!!! I was a squall and selphie shipper 😅😅😅
@@fallenwing25 I've always been a Squall/Selphie shipper. Lion's Rapture is my shit till this day because even in my very first playthrough, I was secretly hoping Squall and Selphie would get together since they clearly had more chemistry than Squall and Rinoa did.
Plus you never get into stupid arguments with Selphie.
I was originally a fan of Rinoa when I was a little girl. But the older I got... she started to irritate me more. Then you add to the fact I've met other women similar to Rinoa and her entire character just puts a foul taste in my mouth.
Now im trying to perceive her without Squall and she's much more enjoyable to take in. I even enjoy shipping her with Quistis, who unlike Squall, would have wanted someone to open up and confide in. Definitely would have made the game more interesting if that's the route they went instead. 😊
Don't worry, I understand what you're saying but yikes. I just keep Rinoa shipped with Seifer and Quistis ans Squall shipped with almost everyone with Zell and Selphie being his OTPs. 🤣
@@fallenwing25 I'm a squall and quistis guy.
Love this series - hope they perform well over time and get more exposure. I know super long videos don't really do big numbers but these are great and much appreciated. Making me want to go back and play this again with more perspective.
WAT. I LOVED chocobo hot and cold in FF9. I legitimately think FF9 has the best side content of the entire series.
Whenever your sidequests give you stuff useful for the regular gameplay loop, it feels so much more rewarding to me.
This podcast just encapsulates why I love video games so much. I love how Mike and Casen are able to talk about the game itself with such heartfelt passion, while also being able to discuss how its narrative, core theme, and character interactions (and more) relate to real-world dynamics in life.
Examples such as how (some) women in Japan view courtship as a challenge being personified in Rinoa, or the theory that there needs to be five good interactions for every one bad interaction as an indication of a healthy relationship (known as The Golden Ratio - discussed in Chapter 6 of the video)
I've come to appreciate how games can offer a "window to the world" and can teach you profound aspects about life that we may otherwise not have come across. Or at least give us the onus to discuss such topics past the realm of "review gaming." (aka this game plays well, graphics are gud 8/10)
I feel my preference for video games as my favorite form of entertainment, gets validated more and more with this podcast. (and these types of discussions in general)
Thanks for your work, gents. And for sharing your passion and insight!
This show is just phenomenal. I love listening to it and I can’t wait to see what you guys cover next! It’s awesome.
As far as Raine is concerned, the scene with her ghost was always interesting to me. And I had no idea so much info was hidden in the menus! The second half of disc 2 is probably my favorite part of the game. I love having the garden mobile and exploring, especially going to places like the ruins with Odin.
I have missed your commentary in the past year or so (by my own fault). I am glad you have done this series in this format. Its been a pleasure to listen to.
About the Rinoa thing, during the Galbadia Garden Battle.
I believe that was their attempt of the Hollywood "When we survive this, we..." banter that sometimes happens in action movies.
Which could have worked, if it was played better.
As you mentioned. She is a civilian, who doesn't have experience in this scenario (except her last few days and the one or other battle with a giant monster, Cactus or 8 legged horse riding god), thus she should be more confused and nervous.
This is a war scenario. She should be scared and that's combined with the recent pushes should be why she says these unreasonable things, to give her some hope for the future.
At the same time, Squall is trying to keep things together, would have brushed her of irritated, till he notices how distraught she is.
He would have to take the lead, calm her and give her that hope for a future meeting with the ring, to continue and minimize the problems here.
However, as mentioned, the framing would have to be a bit different.
They might need a little break since they jumped from battle to battle. Taking a little rest to maybe drink something, before they continue further to the next, etc.
If it's put in the right place, this thing could have been a good character building szene.
I had some ideas of how the orphanage twist could have been improved. Maybe instead of having all the kids grow up together, just have Squall and Ellone grow up there. You can still have the GF memory loss, but instead of memories of the orphanage, the other party members forget their childhoods. This would give more weight to the child soldier theme. To be honest, I actually really like the idea that Edea was Squall’s surrogate mother figure that was taken from him by Ultimecia. It’s pretty tragic, considering what happed with Raine and Laguna.
Like they hinted at in this episode, if you read between the lines and dig into the backstory, there's actually a reason Squall, Selphie, Zell, Quistis and Irvine get pushed together by Cid - it's only the substitution of Rinoa for Seifer that diverges from the old orphanage gang and presumably also from Cid's plan.
Though, yeah, even just with what we know at the end of disc 2, it's no wonder Squall developed abandonment issues - he lost his parents relatively young, and went to the orphanage, Sis/Ellone left, who was clearly special to him, three of his friends left the orphange to various destinations, and Matron disappeared and turned evil. That left him with Cid, Quistis and Seifer as the only people he knew coming to Balamb Garden. Then he started using GF and forgot the history that shaped his feelings and habits, making them that much harder to question...
And then Rinoa comes along and decides to make him her personal project...
I'm like 40 seconds in and recognize: every single disc of Final Fantasy VIII ends with an assassination attempt of a witch O.o
I used to think the same thing, but Disc 3 ends after the duel with Seifer, and not the battle with Adel.
@@chrisy2128 I checked it and, Sir, you are absolutely right!
@@chrisy2128 Conspiracy Theory: Seifer's a sorceress
@@LaviniaDeMortalium well, he is a sorceress's knight, so there's that.
@@LaviniaDeMortalium *OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOD*
A great video series! Best gaming content on youtube in a long while. I love the depth and scope of your analysis, as well as the conversational format. 10/10.
New subscriber here and I know this don't mean much but I will say this series got me hyped for the uploads.
Squall is the most relatable game character that I've ever played with ❤
...
...whatever
@@rmsgrey so glad y'all agree ❤
Then go talk to a Wall
@@MP-cf3pr yesss another fan of squall 😂😂😂🤗🤗🤗
Regarding the missable GFs:
The game gives you the 3 GFs at the beginning of the game for each of the 3 characters that you have in battle. Every single additional GF after Ifrit is optional.
Do you have to get Quetzacotl and Shiva?
I remember being able to leave without them
@@StrikerJaken Yes, Quistis will give them to Squall at the gate if you don't get them from the computer.
@@bdhuffman42 oh, okay. I just remembered her telling me to get them,but I might be mistaken
what I don't understand is how FF8 did fmv+gameplay interactions that way, 20 years ago, with a PS1
and outriders have to put 2 loading screens for you to jump a gap
Lots of RAM loading of assets, especially music, so they're always instantly loaded and FMVs are just videos so no rendering or animation or anything needed.
Well the FMV is like loading a video in a DVD player. Doesn't take much of anything to do.
The Garden battle was the “season finale” of disc 2 and definitely a highlight of my memory playing FF8 so many years ago. The amount of FMV expertise used resulted in the best looking action sequence in 90s gaming I can think of. I’ll never forget the shot where we run left across an FMV combat zone. However, I think comparing anything in FF8 to the (excellently) gritty Saving Private Ryan felt a bit extreme. FF8’s action scenes, including the prison escape, are not too much goofier than most PG-13 movies with occasional banter or side-drama amidst the life/death situations of the “extras” in the background. From LOTR to Avengers, I think I’m just desensitized to surrounding war carnage while the main characters are dealing with far lighter issues or even humorous interactions during battlefield downtime. That’s probably not a good thing though lol
But is there any chance that the party members were urging Squall to help Rinoa NOT exclusively against his other war responsibilities? I’m not sure the dialogue reads like a “1 or the other” situation. Irvine says “It may be too late, but don’t give up until you’re CERTAIN there’s nothing more you can do…I’ll take everyone inside Galbadia. Don’t worry. I know the place like the back of my hand.” And Quistis says “We’ll clear a path. Once Squall arrives, we’ll move in.” I think his teammates are saying “We got this, there’s still time to save her.” Ironically, the risky perseverance to save one person is the plot of Saving Private Ryan.
Other highlights include the return of The Landing theme (a top 3 track) and The Oath during Squall’s motivational speech. Damn this soundtrack is incredible.
I just love the energy and emotions people feel about FF8, positive and negative! The Yeezus of Final Fantasy games 😂
Not really
That’s a dam insult calling it that. Please don’t ever insult ff8 like that again omG
Not the Yeezus alsjdfjlasdjfkasdlf JAIL
@@lookhowshegobbledthat LMAOO
FH Mayor is such a pacifist, he has an Ultima draw point in his house
Vista Appmt - LEB PSYCHIATRY 4
Vista Appmt - LEB PSYCHIATRY 4
It's only a single use draw point 😂
Call a doctor BUT NOT FOR ME
This analysis is great! Wonderful praises and recaps and explanations of the story, as well as very fair and valid criticisms of a favourite game of mine from childhood. Loving the discussion. Really well researched and well considered stuff. Would love to see more content in this format.
Regarding the romance, and getting into a little bit of Episode 1 and 2 of your analysis: When I was younger and played this, I really identified with Squall because that's how I was, quiet and brooding. I always chose the cold answers for Rinoa because I always wanted something to happen between Squall and Quistis, I was expecting a date/romance scene like what we got in VII.
What a deep game for something that was developed in a year.
A lot of cutting room floor design concepts from VII made their way into Parasite Eve and Final Fantasy VIII. VII was initially supposed to take place in modern day New York (Parasite Eve) where you fight an evil sorceress (Final Fantasy VIII). That evil sorceress ended up turning into an ancient alien in the form of Jenova, which was initially the name given to the power innate within people that allowed them to control magic before it was the name applied to the "Calamity from the Skies". So they reapplied those concepts elsewhere.
Instead of New York, VII got Midgar.
Instead of sorceress Edea, Adel, Ultimecia etc. VII got Jenova.
Watching the trailers for Final Fantasy XV back in the day reminded me a lot of the culmination of this "what if" scenario where those ideas weren't scrapped and were instead applied to a modern day Final Fantasy setting.
@@Rhomagus I knew about edea but didnt know about parasite eve. Thank you!
I only played a little of it cause I borrowed it from a friend but the discs were so scratched that I couldn't get anywhere 😭
@@fallenwing25 The double edged sword of non-physical media. Good thing is, no information is saved on a disc. The bad thing is, that no information is saved on a disc.
I agree about the Irvine assassination thing. I feel like if Irvine “I can’t shoot her, she was like a mother to me”. He could mix that in with “I’m such a screwup” type stuff, where the player wouldn’t be sure if he was under the influence of the Sorceress’s power, or he had the yips, or they had some mysterious history together. Then when he fires the shot he could whisper “I’m sorry, Matron”.
I would also like to note that many little tidbits of plot relevant info are also hidden in Scan descriptions, and Scan is really good in the game in general. Thank you for your thoughts and analysis, even with FFVIII being my favourite game, I actually learn some new information about it: I didn't know that you could find Ellone before White Seed ship arrival for example.
That plot twist scene... I literally took the disc out of my Playstation after I saw it, put it back in the case, and went to the shop to sell it. I was so upset at the lack of foreshadowing (or, I guess more accurately, the lack of guaranteed foreshadowing, as I completely missed all those optional hints) and how ridiculous the idea was on the surface that it just completely broke my suspension of disbelief in the game so I couldn't continue. The worst part was that it upset me so much at the time that I didn't play any more Final Fantasy games except Tactics (and its sequels) for literal decades.
All that said, I am very grateful for this podcast series as it is truly giving me a much better appreciation for this game that I otherwise would have had nothing but bad memories of. Knowing now what the developers intended with the story, and how there was indeed some hints thrown about that I just missed, it makes me want to see a remake of this game that fixes some of that so it sells itself better to the audience. Because they way yall are discussing it, it really does sound like there's an amazing game hiding underneath all of it, and I wish I'd been able to play THAT game.
Yesss. I've played ff8 once a year since I got it back in 2000 and I am STILL finding little gems in it that I havent discovered before. Of course majority of us dont want to talk to NPCs all day but they give a lot of info too. ❤
This is probably the one single point that makes FF8 the worst FF game for me. It's so dumb. And yes, I've finished the game 3 times... in spite of this scene. The point of a plot twist is that it changes things. Either: it changes what is going to happen, or it changes your perspective on what has already happened. This does neither...
Gamers who are obviously not philosophy students vaguely recalling the trolly problem @ 2:45:38 , lol :-)
Great video. I've really been enjoying this series, as 8 has long been a favorite game of mine. You're hitting basically every point on the head. Keep up the great work
Regarding the seemingly out-of-place scene between Squall and Rinoa during the Garden battle, I understand the criticism the two of you made. At the same time, this is consistent with Rinoa, as you mentioned, because like Seifer, she has these childish, romantic fantasies that skew her perception of the gravity of what's going on around her. And this is something that seems almost completely incomprehensible to Squall, who has been systematically avoiding forming bonds with others because, on one end, he doesn't want to lose someone close to him like he lost Ellone when she left Matron's orphanage, and on the other, because he knows he will feel compelled to care for them and this care might lead him to more trolley problems.
And while Squall was more dismissive of Rinoa during the Timber mission, by the time of the Garden battle, he is now responsible for the entire facility. This burden is terribly heavy for him to bear, and Rinoa's light-heartedness gives him room to just be a 17-year-old with his own adolescent worries. And while Squall might feel some embarrassment about this (as evidenced by his shame, looking back on his past self), the truth is that his responsibility is on the verge of making him crack and Rinoa's the only one who consistently manages to keep Squall connected to his own humanity, even in dark moments.
The rest of the party probably realizes this, too, and this is likely why they are so insistent on sending him to save Rinoa. No one else truly connects with him, and if he winds up alone again, he'll just burn out. Part of him realizes this too. He never says that he doesn't want to save her; he feels responsible for everyone and considers saving Rinoa like something selfish. The thing is, Squall cannot possibly save everyone and he can't be at all places at once. At the same time, the others remind him that he's not alone, that there are other SeeDs to help coordinate the defense. Squall doesn't need to be everywhere at once and the party insists on having him assume the burden of caring for the one person who had no business being involved in that conflict. Can you imagine the guilt he would've felt if Rinoa had died while he did nothing to save her, knowing how guilty he felt for losing her a while later in spite of going in to save her?
The truth of the matter is that having Rinoa around is emotional self-care for Squall and this is why he keeps returning to her. He doesn't fully realize how much she means to him until the end of Disc Two, and the start of Disc Three shows exactly how isolated he's become without her. He could've asked the party to help him find a way to save her from the Sorceress, but he decides to go solo nonetheless.
Regaurding the role of sorceress and how its passed on. I know you started Stormlight archive. It's worth getting into Warbreaker and the Role of the God King Susebron and the peace givers treasure as a great comparison to good fantasy writing.
You know modern Square enix looking at these games knew we didn't want to do that repetitive grinding. I feel no guilt using the 3x speed and encounter none functions in the prison once i got the things i want.
You guys did a really good job explaining Edea’s and CId’s plan. Very good perspective. As a girl who Absolutely adores FF8 I always had good intuition of what responses to give squall. Therefore the story of their relationship was always very natural to me. I always kind of balance it out. It was never all warm or all cold. I feel like this game was very much designed for people who are more in tune with the right side of their brain. If you over analyze and are too left brained about it you’re not gonna get the most out of the experience this game gives you. It’s a very emotional and spiritual experience, and is such a creative masterpiece. Every moment of this game speaks to my soul until this day.
here's to being horrified that there aren't more people like you and me singing this from mountaintops. this game was and still is, even moreso, the synchronistic armature running my archetypal meta-narrative. if i get to choose which delusion to believe in, MK-ultra conspiracy style, it's gotta be this one. except it's backwards, i was a sorceress BEFORE i met the manifestation of squall/laguna and i played this game 4 times before i even came around to living in the god realms. (i'll stop there; i know how annoying it can sound when someone's talking about their own mythopoetic madness on the internet or elsewhere, lol)
Good work as always if memory serves raine dies 17 years prior to the games main story it was recent which is important but not gonna spoil it here hopefully you will talk about in disc 3 towards the end.
Something I remembered from episode 1 forgot to mention in talking about how young these characters are being soldiers. I believe because of constant wars the sorcerer war with Esther, then the radio waves going dark or static is a big deal could you imagine not being able to communicate with neighbours could lead to famines or more wars, then the galbadia increasing its territory (more wars) on top of all that it would be understandable if a lot of adults from 20-40 die leaving the elderly and young children. Setting up gardens as orphanages to train new soldiers which links to something in disc 3.
This would make sense but isn’t installed well in the lore like ff13,ff15 doesn’t do well either ff10 does for different reasons.
The reason I believe riona is the one that doesn’t want to kill matron, because she has lost her mother and that loss at 5 was huge on her family they (squall and co) don’t know that loss either they don’t remember her or as orphanes don’t know what that loss means and the effect it has.
Squall character he is my favourite Shakespeare says “ Some are born great, Some achieve greatness and Some have Greatness thrust upon them”. Squall not only has it thrust upon him but never wanted it poor guy.
54:30
FBI, please note this is why I was googling ICBM systems.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_error_probable
Circular Error Probable might be the closest real life equivalent to the error ratio
New to the channel. I just watched this episode but on the Resonant Arc channel lol.
It will be cool to see other games get this same in-depth analysis as FFVIII. FVIII is my favourite Final Fantasy so that is how I ended up here.
Cheers!
The next one will be either Mass Effect or Nier Automata
This video series is so good!
Regarding Seifer and the extent to which he was magically manipulated by Edea/Ultimecia, the way I look at it, it's kind of like the way people are radicalized in real life, except with a little supernatural kicker to set it in. Seifer is passionate, and has dreams of grandeur, but his failure to graduate as a SeeD when his sociopathic rival and the chicken-wuss pass with flying colors begins to instill in him an inferiority complex that alienates him further from his fellow classmates, except for Fujin and Raijin (who are loyal to a fault). Sure, the slow clap he gives Squall, Zell, and Selphie might seem like some form of begrudging respect, but I think it's mostly because he could no longer pretend to be better than them. He couldn't very well bully them now that everyone else has acknowledged them as superior. If he ran and snubbed them, he would just be acknowledging his own weakness in front of all his fellow classmates. So, to save face, he claps and begrudgingly takes the high road. But he's extremely fragile at this point.
So then comes the Timber mission. As Deling begins the first broadcast in 17 years, Seifer pops in, grabs the President, and holds his gunblade to his captive's neck. Quistis warns the Galbadian soldiers to be careful as they'll just provoke Seifer. A few minutes later, when the Timber team joins them, we find out that Seifer broke out of the disciplinary room and on his own initiative went to Timber with the intent to help Rinoa in his own way (this is not said directly, but implied by Zell). Quistis was trying to stop him, but couldn't which is why she asks Squall and the others to help her. Zell opens his big mouth and reveals that they're all associated with Garden. At that point, Seifer has a big bullseye on his head as only he and Squall are gunblade specialists at Balamb Garden and he directly threatened the President's life. He's furious at Zell, tells Quistis and Squall to deal with the mess, and slowly backs away with his hostage, clearly feeling cornered and without a plan.
So the Sorceress comes in and starts talking down to him, telling him he's a little boy, that he's confused and cannot make up his own mind, doesn't know the right answer (all of which are true, though he's mostly a boy by virtue of being immature in his actions). At the same time, she recognizes his predicament and his need for help. She infantilizes him (which plays into the children of fate imagery) and he argues with her that he is NOT a boy. So she then gives him an opportunity to prove himself, to abandon his childhood and come with her to a place of no return (adulthood, which sets him apart from the children of fate). So there he is, feeling abandoned by his classmates, completely isolated, quite possibly risking his life if he doesn't find a way out, and you have the Sorceress who offers him two things he needs: a way out and a chance to prove himself. Of course, he's not entirely convinced, and it's obvious that Edea exerts some kind of magical influence as Seifer just releases Deling, turns to Squall and the others and waves his gunblade goodbye to them, almost mechanically, before exiting the way the Sorceress came in.
What happens next? When the team reaches Galbadia Garden, they find out that Garden will throw Seifer under the bus. So going back to Garden is not an option for him. If he decides to run from the Sorceress, then Galbadia will do him in for his attempt on the President's life. He's ripe for psychological manipulation, and who better in Ultimecia's eyes to fight SeeD than a knight who was abandoned by Garden? After that, Seifer is pretty much doomed as he needs to find a way to rationalize his new way of life, the same way radicalized people rationalize their actions. To a point, Seifer becomes the noble knight defending the persecuted Sorceress (the persecution being at the root of the self-fulfilling prophecy of FF8). The smirch of his attempt on the President's life goes away when Edea kills Deling and Seifer takes his place at her side in a glorious parade across the streets of the Galbadian capital. He finally got what he wanted: recognition and a worthy cause.
At that point, the Sorceress doesn't really need to resort to magic to manipulate him. He'll rationalize all the actions he does because doing otherwise would completely shatter his ego. Knights are noble and protect the innocent, whereas mercenaries and assassins will kill for money. Looking at things from this perspective, who's really the evil one? The passionate knight defending his Lady or the sociopath bent on murdering her? When Irvine fails to go through with the assassination attempt, he's clearly troubled by the moral implications of the murder, but Squall decides to go through with it. Seifer doesn't go out of his way to seek out Squall; he no longer cares about his infantile rivarly. It's Squall that brings the fight to Seifer and Edea. And Seifer then has all the evidence he needs to corroborate Edea's claims that SeeD wants to kill her. Which, in turn, justifies his torture of Squall and the attack on Balamb Garden.
Very well-said. I never thought of him joining the sorceress as a radicalization but it makes a lot of sense.
Something I always found interesting was that the way you get Diablos almost felt like it was a cut tutorial boss intended to teach you the merits of draw casting, since diablos (if you're playing the game normally and inspect the lamp as soon as you get it) is REALLY HARD unless you drawcast demi on him, the boss even rewards you for draw casting demi on him by casting curaga on you after you hit him with his own spell.
That story referred to near the end is commonly known as the "Trolley Problem", though it's usually presented as a dilemma with no widely-accepted correct solution rather than trying to present a specific outcome as the right answer.
The standard version is that a runaway streetcar/trolley is heading for disaster - if you do nothing, then a group of five people will be killed. However, you happen to be standing next to a switch, which you happen to know will divert the trolley onto another line, saving the lives of those five people, but if you do so, the trolley will kill one person instead, and that will be your fault.
Do you do nothing and allow five people to die, or do you take action and deliberately kill one person?
The difficulty of the problem can be increased by reframing it: there are five people all of whom are in need of organ transplants to save their lives (assume they're blameless victims of a terrorist attack or something, meaning they're otherwise healthy aside from that one damaged organ), and there is one person who happens to be a perfect donor for each of the five, but would not survive the organ donation process. Should that one person be cut up to save the five?
I just realised the gf plot points are recycled with sin, aeons, and the finale of ffx and they actually put more effort into putting it in plain sight.
I also see why i understood Tenet so well. Id already dealt with this kind of plot. I was also reminded of back to the future with Zells hoverboard. I wonder if at one point they had considered using it in the train heist. But they got denied copyright or something. Also some terminator themes
Regarding Squall's personality: I think the main problem is that Squall just isn't the main character type of person. Even though he is written very well and realistically for that type of person, that type of person just isn't generally a "main character", specifically because he is so closed off and standoffish and very introverted. That's why a lot of people hate him, because he's so cold and difficult to relate to. His character is the type that a "normal" main character protagonist would meet and have as a side party member, and eventually bring out of his shell and becomes a loyal and reliable friend. But that personality type rarely takes center stage.
Haven't finished the podcast series yet, but wanted to mention something I just thought of that is to the discussion so far. (So I'm not sure if you guys mention it later or not) About the changing the past plot that you mention briefly at the beginning, what I like is that it is ACTUALLY represented in the gameplay, but goes completely unnoticed unless you do repeat playthroughs. Before EACH flashback scene there is a timber maniacs magazine you can find that relates directly to the event you are about to witness with Laguna. Whether or not you find the magazine has VERY subtle changes to the events that transpire. For example, in the first flashback, the end of the conversation with Julia will change depending on whether you find the magazine.
A theory that just popped into my mind is that it is almost like the person causing the flashbacks (which we don't find out until later) is purposely leaving the old timber maniacs magazines around to try and subtly change the past. I would have to play through the game again paying specific attention to that or even noting the exact changes that occur when Squall and co have read the magazine and have vague knowledge of what they are witnessing to really see if that could be the case.
THE most underrated title
Agreee
This is how Squall remember is family, Crying in the Raine all Ellone.
I love these talks, they're always interesting and informative.
I absolutely LOVE this podcast. Can't wait for whichever FF game you cover next... as long as it's FF 😀
Damn, this is an entertaining analysis🥂 thank you
40:00 At that point Seifer was "executed" by official announcement. So then that might depend on if he knows that everyone else thought he was dead or not
2:24:50 : it has to do with love and friendship. It's kind of the motif to the game. It anchors people together in reality. They remember even though the GFs messed with their memories because of the love they shared. The same reason why squall, rinoa and everyone is able to come back from the time compression.
If there's one thing I really got out of listening to this podcast as a way to pass time for some of the non-brain related work, I realized how funny this game is. I didn't think about it at the time despite being a huge fan of comedy tv shows, but this likely played a huge part in why I liked FF8 way better than a lot of people. Most notably I found it much more interesting than FF7, which was my first FF and at the time absolutely blew my mind.
I think the humor really helps in making me like the characters. This is one of the few games I actually enjoyed using everyone in the party rather than a fixed favorites like the other games. I usually think of Lunar series or Chrono Cross as being more comedic jrpgs, but FF8 is definitely underrated in this aspect, because the comedy is not usually brought up for this game.
One note about about your criticism of the garden battle and the characters indifference to the chaos and death around them.
It feels a bit more forgivable in a world where 'damage' in general is scaled differently. When you consider that people in this universe survive getting lit on fire, stuck by lightning, impaled with ice spikes, and (in combat) brushing off gunshots and explosives to the face.
The healing abilities in this world would also help explain why there is such a blase attitude towards such obvious carnage.
Also I think that destruction in general is also a more common occurrence. There is a flying school that has a garden with a T Rex in it, I'm sure property damage is pretty much expected in their world.
This videos got me playing ff8 again good stuff
Since we started with the Laguna Dream Sequence, I recall this is the 2nd time we played Laguna in FF8 if I'm not mistaken.
One of the things that stuck with me is with FF8, I remember I wanted to defeat that demon in the lamp so badly and I couldn't beat it with Squall's party on Disc 1. But I vaguely recall finally succeeding when I was in Laguna's party. This was in my first playthrough of the game over 2 decades ago and I just stumbled along. But that sense of accomplishment obtaining diablos and defeating that demon/creature gave me such purpose to continue playing through eventhough I kept losing to it.
I beat him once with Laguna and party too. Took me awhile as well!
27:12
So about this statement (maybe you cover this in a later episode) .
I'm midway through Disc 3 and noticed the Information entry for "Moomba" says they remember people by tasting their blood.
If you recall, during one of the Laguna "dream" sequences right before the prison escape, Laguna and Co. jump off the cliff to escape. Later, we found out Luguna was rescued by Moombas and brought to the Shumi village to recover.
I like the idea that the Moombas ended up tasting Lagunas blood while helping him recover to "remember" him. And so when squall is captured and being tortured, they perhaps also tasted Squalls blood and from that, can determine there is a familial tie between Squall and Laguna.
A bit of a stretch maybe? But they sort of normalize the Moomba "blood tasting" thing without making it seem like too detrimental/outlandish of a concept. And I like the idea of having additional nods to Squall and Laguna being related. Its interesting they didnt feel the need 100% confirm this through dialogue.
49:30 this foreshadowing is so cool because the group you send to the base has comments (I think Rinoa says something like this): "did Squall put me in this group because he thought we'd die?"
Never connected that to Squall's relative hesitation
@ResonantArc Keep up the great work! These videos are so insightful. Playing this game again as an adult gives so much more meaning and context to the story.
I like that this is done somewhat like a book club, makes me think I should start playing the game and get to the proper place before I watch part 4. It's been so long since I played this game, might be worthwhile to give it a go
I'd want to listen to these two discuss any piece of fiction. So many great observations -- some that I didn't fully make myself and others I did but that are articulated so well here that I still feel like I'm taking something more away from it.
I started FF8 (for the third or fouth time since I've owned it) when my work shut down last March and got the farthest I ever did -- to about this point -- but somehow I got too busy to finish once again and this podcast is really making me want to go back and make sure I play through the whole thing this time. Such a great listen!
These are re-release? RUclips keeps suggesting videos from Resonant Archive.
Yes. We are moving the podcast from the Archive channel back to the main channel. These rereleases are catching people up as we move to the release of the final episode.
FF8 has always been my favorite FF. It has it's flaws, but the characters have always carried it for me. I find more people I meet face to face admit loving this game than generally do online.
As a teenager I wanted to be more like Squall, even wore a Griever pendant a lot in early college. I realized in my late twenties to early thirties that I had become more like Laguna. No leg cramps though.
El-oh-nay
Gahl-bad-ia
*goes off to a corner to have a fit by myself*
Yes!!! The soundtrack of fishermen’s village reminds me of the track ‘searching for friends’ from FF6. It is a perfect blend of sadness and hope.
I love you guys analytical banter. As a kid playing this game I didn't see all this. Im a hardcore FF fan. It just was fun and cool to play and experience. As adults it makes sense to see all the flaws. What resonance with til this day was the dialogue at the last battle.
I love these videos and I love FF8! What Squall and co. are (unintentionally) doing to Laguna, Ward and Kiros is a weaker version of what Ultimecia is doing to Edea and Rinoa.
36:16
I like to compare what happens with Seifer when he's Edea's knight, to what happened to Vegeta when he turned Majin. Both are under a spell, however, they both are willingly and complicit in their actions. Seifer willingly gets manipulated by Edea in order to fulfill his dream, Vegeta willingly becomes Majin to return to the cold black hearted Vegeta.
That ending scene with Galbadia Garden they speak towards the end of the episode...
I'll agree in that it is DEFINITELY extremely well directed and, for the era---> DEFINITELY God Tier.
Greatest action set piece in gaming history, however----- Uh-Uh.
THAT title goes to Witcher 3, when ALL of Geralt's, whom you have been strengthening your bond with, come to fight-- FOR YOU-- to stave off an alien invasion, led by a king trying to kill his daughter.
Nothing--
NO-THING,has EVER captured me like THAT entire sequence. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you get to watch the SICKEST outcome if you diligently put in the time hours prior to this point. So damn good
Regarding everyone pestering Squall during the battle, it would been better for Squall's character arch if instead, they showed that Squall was stressed out and was trying to do everything himself, but the party members kept volunteering to take care of X or Y task, or maybe the party already anticipates his needs. That way they'd be reinforcing that he can count on them, and it's okay to depend on others.
49:50 I actually stopped bringing rinoa to balamb with me. I send her to the missile base mission with selphie and quistis. It doesnt affect the relationship of rinoa and squall. I do that for the cute dialogue when they meet back up in fisherman's horizon. You can even select squall saying he missed her and it that makes rinoa blush and run away. Toooo cute ❤
My take on the Squall Rinoa relationship and the 'added value' of dialogue choices: If, as a player, you are consistently choosing the standoffish responses and rejecting her in a cold way at every turn you are "playing" Squall accurately. As you learn about Squal you see more, as you you discussed here, how he is an emotional individual who presents 'how I feel doesn't matter'. Sometimes being cold is shown as the reasonable response, such as the disc 1 Timber mission. As the game progresses there will be cold responses that are reasonable. Once you are shown that wound Squall has it begins to justify the warmer approach for some responses. Take trying to console Selphie. He is trying now...but he just isn't there yet. He is way too lacking in emotional intelligence. However at some point in the story it is no longer "playing" Squal accurately to select cold responses. I view this not as a benefit to the game but to the player. If all you ever do is act cold and they become a thing anyways...well that is a bad message and seems to justify toxic relationships (he, probably jokingly, tries to hit her after all). It feels wrong narratively which, at least for me, encourages a reexamination of what is going on and what I am missing. I should note though that there are many poorly written sections like the Error Factor and what not that really hindered me approaching this story in good faith.
Funny thing about the Error Ratio thing: other than plot reasons, it wasn't necessary to save Balamb as the school conveniently has flight capabilities, increasing the Error Ratio or Spread ratio or whatever increases the spread of area being damaged, with ends up dealing more damage to Balamb Island and even risking hitting Balamb town, while making harder for the Garden to dodge the missiles, as they now end up hitting a wider area,
and the CG of failure in the Balamb Scenario shows all missiles hitting the same area anyway.
I have a bunch of theories about the memory thing but I reckon that perhaps the GFs don't "erase" memories; rather they "suppress" them.
But for the most part I agree that the build up to the orphanage revelation and what followed was really poorly executed. 13yo me didn't get this until I looked it up online, even though I had read about the GF memory loss thing and accounted for Irvine's situation.
Also going back to the part about Squall and Rinoa's relationship being unbelievable if you pick all the cold options: as a woman born and raised in the West I agree that most women wouldn't put up with such cold behaviour, and as a 13yo if I had chosen the cold options I'd have been massively confused. But also as someone who's been in an abusive relationship as an adult I can see why Rinoa would keep trying to find that gold spark within Squall. Humans are... weird.
1:02:00 he’s not here, has similar feels to “princess is in another castle”
From a female perspective, about women being attracted to “bad boy” , in this case of ff8, yes Squall is the broken man project that some women would want to fix and make these men put down their walls, but women also attracted to the possibilities of what a man is capable of, in this case Rinoa views him as a capable accomplished person (SeeD, leader of Garden, strong...etc) imo, so she starts pursue him as a potential love interest because she saw something in him. And throughout the game her pov shifts towards him, and yes if you keep rebuffing her with the other options in their interactions, I don’t think their romance would’ve blossomed, but in disc 3 when he realizes how much she means to him, women can forgive their love interest cold and callous demeanors because now he is showing her what she wanted. Hope this makes sense 😂
Ngl, I wouldn't have forgiven Squall if he rebuffed me if you choose the negative options. Lol
It kinda just shows the lack of self-worth women have if they think that this sort of relationship has any merit, if at all. This is why I can only really give this relationship a pass for those that can only view this under the context of a high school only romance and not something long term.
@@MysteriousKunoichi50 agreed LOL I would've forgiven him too, and I would also give their relationship a pass because knowing their age and highschool settings, how many of us waited for our crush to finally notice us XD, which if you ask me it's a very Japanese troupe, Squall being Tsundere af too
@@samianka I stopped subscribing to the notion of getting my crush to notice me when I was mid-high school. After that and into college, a man, woman or anyone would have to do something worthy of me noticing them.
The funny thing is, I used to identify with the tsundere trope a lot when I was younger. Thats why I identified pretty hard with Squall. But honestly? My favorite version or interpretation of Squall is after the game, after he dumps Rinoa (which let's face it, their relationship is pretty superficial) and he is just getting to know himself further. He's more relaxed, matured and comfortable in his own skin than in the skin he thinks everyone wants him in.
I won't discredit Rinoa because at the very least, she did the hardwork no one else would have done. The way it was done gives me hives but! Squall can enjoy being authentically himself and embracing the things he missed out on.
And we love that for him! 🥰
Women are flighty and make irrational decisions. "Bad boys" almost always end up being liabilities and the outward persona they put on is often a hollow bravado.
FF8 is classic! Nostalgic
Man if they remake ff8 someday, I hope they take in consideration key plot points and devices that you talk about here. Because if some story beats were made differently, it would be much better.
Yup! Doesnt need a lot of changes to make it better. Only some minor tweaks
Nah, we don't need anymore crap like ff7r
I think about the joke in the prison escape and the jarring feeling about the serious in squall scene and joke in the other would be that the dev doesn't want to make heavy and dark story. It is to lighten the mood. From what you research in episode 1, it is pretty clear that the dev motive for the games.
I do enjoy these long forms of FF games. They actually give me more to think about when I replay them.
It is stated at the beginning of disc 2 that Julia married Rinoa's father after he comforted her when Laguna didn't return from war, Kiros told him this at the bar.
I wonder if the Error Ratio thing was also written like that (in English) in the original Japanese version. Sometimes Japanese developers use these terms in English that they don't really understand or don't really care about just to look cool (most Japanese players wouldn't understand it anyway, especially at the time) and then it gets through localization as it could be a chore (again, especially at the time) to mess with pre-rendered stuff.
more on error rate on the next podcast ep5 probably. it's a technical term which is correct
The text on the missile control panel is in English no matter which translation you play. It's even displayed in English in the French version, despite that one changing all the signs in the prerendered Garden backgrounds (signs for the library now read "bibliothèque" etc.)
This makes me suspect it was some kinda stylistic choice.
I think This playlist, the Xenogears one and the FFT I will listen to on repeat for the rest of my life.
I do agree with you about the lifestyle of the people of Fisherman's Horizon - for many of them, it's all that they actually have left, this peaceful existence. The part where they don't fight is both the means AND the goal, regardless of the consequences. But I was just ever-so-slightly disappointed that you didn't mention a conversation you can have with one of the guys who I think operates the elevator or something.
It only happens if you return to Fisherman's Horizon while you have only Irvine (even Squall has left the party). And the guy gives Irvine a piece of his mind about SEED and strikes a very black and white "fighting is always bad" argument. And the only thing Irvine says is, "That's who we are. And you, judging us... Who are YOU?" And the conversation ends because the guy can't say anything to that. I'm not sure why, but that moment stuck with me harder than anything else in this whole game.
in my opinion its the greatest work of art in gaming
Is there a part 4 to this podcast or am I just not seeing it? Either way, I loved every minute of it. Great job guys!
Yes, it's on their other channel Resonant Archive.
19:30 that bad picture is the first screen in one of the flashbacks you guys! The one where Laguna is “running all funny”
About Seifer in the prison, to my mind it's not especially magic from Edea that makes him that bad, but it's his "evil potential" which is growing because the situation leads him to act this way. That's what I think
But you mentioned the evil purple haze in Timber and that's interesting ☺️
The Rinoa rescue scene is actually a classic ethical debate of Utilitarianism vs Altruism. And Squall finds the middle ground.
Mike, what version of the game did you guys play? Enhanced version on PC?
Regarding the scene where Squall playfights with Rinoa, they literally go to a military training academy for their upbringing, it would be normal for them to spar with one another...Rinoa isn't from a garden but she is an actual rebel who clearly fights.
I think what a lot of people seem to forget when it comes to the silliness of FF 8 is that some there were some mature themes, the game is still primarily aimed at kids. Like preteen and above.
Like think of Avatar and the sheer amount of mature themes throughout the series, then go back to Aang and the crew doing a number of silly sh** despite the stakes.
Fully agree that Irvine should've dropped the setup bomb during the assassination mission. But I overall think their resolve to kill Edea made sense. That was what they trained to do and even knowing what they knew didn't change the very reason they were created for and I never saw it as them making that decision easily, but resigning themselves to the fact that if she's going to be killed, it might as well be them.
so this is from the perspective of playing it as a somewhat angsty teen that related to squall a decent amount. the galbadia fight didn't bother me at all with rinoa as far as i remember, possibly because i didn't think that deeply about it and how ridiculous it would be "realistically." i played games to escape reality so it was kind of easy to just go with it and immerse myself in them and accept the situations. it barely crossed my mind that it's not the best time to deal w/ her hitting on you after that battle scene, like i acknowledged it and went through the dialogue faster, maybe artificially creating a sense of urgency thinking "yeah i get it rinoa but we gotta gtfo of here though!" i dunno i guess it was a lot easier for me to ignore how unrealistic this would be and maintain my suspension of disbelief or whatever you wanna call it. this was also the first ff game i ever played and maybe my first rpg so i was really into it.
(they probably also chose to insert a life and death situation here and the romance stuff with her one last time since right after this you lose her w/ the sorceress situation. to drill it in that it was your last opportunity to open up and she's gone i guess. i'm sure they could have done it better but who knows how much more they had to cut from the game like w/ laguna)
it was stressful as hell cause there was the whole fight and everyone telling you to do different things all while trying to save rinoa. obviously i didn't want her to die and leaning more into the romance storyline i suppose that was a bigger priority for me so i'm like yeah i need to go freakin get her, obviously! everyone else is fighting too so me going to save her, in my mind, wouldn't have any affect on the outcome of the battle.
and for that trolley problem, you put rinoa (or someone you personally care about and have history with) on one track and 20 people you don't really know on the other, i'm saving rinoa lol. sorry/not sorry to the 20 people
One of the many many thematic clashes of FFVIII is that the story wants to be this light-hearted romantic comedy and a relatable high school romp. Then it ends up having themes of loss, war, fate, and child soldiers. You know, as Final Fantasy do.
James I see that it is light-hearted and I guess that's fine but it's not epic. I guess it's bad writing or something but everyone just say really dumb things and act like kids cartoons. FF7 and FF9 both feel epic like star wars or lord of the rings. I think yoshinori kitase is just not a good fit for directing ff.
@@alanlee67 How is he not a good fit for directing FF? He directed FFVI, VII, VIII, and X, some of the best-selling and most wildly popular games in the series.
@@Y-two-K They touched on this in other podcast eps that Sakaguchi was the producer on 6 and 7 and was pretty hands on with the process. While with 8, Sakaguchi was working on 9 so Kitase was left to his own free reins to do whatever he wanted with 8. I forgot what they said about 10. Kitase is like Nomura for me, he's good when you have someone else that can rein him in.
I love it!!!! I like when a story has all my favorites: action, comedy, romance and drama lol!!!
@@SuperHiddenaccount Yeah that's fair, I guess. I think Kitase is competent enough, personally, but he does seem to work best when his scope is smaller and someone else is overseeing the big stuff.
Fantastic content! Keep up the good work