For the next episode, play up to the point where Tidus and Yuna have a long conversation with the purple hooded boy. Also, the games up for vote on Patreon are Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, and Spec Ops: The Line.
@@obsidianx01 Are you saying we spoiled this? We learned this in Luca when Auron told Tidus his father was Sin. In this episode, Seymour reveals it to everyone else.
I noticed it too, we know he became sin, but we don't know specifically how or why. Or that it even specifically has to be a guardian. I don't feel it's a major one at this point in the game really, but I remember being kinda surprised on my first playthrough as to the exact process. Live the content though guys, keep it up :)
1:46:00 have u ever read the Ringworld book series they have a chemical that can boost your lifespan by 50 years and the main character is like 250 years old, but they also have space craft and other planets. I would get bored on earth with that much time but if we had space to explore you would want to live longer for those decade long journeys
I never really thought about it before but I think Yuna's statue with a horn is kind of a funny little reference to some of the earlier summoner job designs which had helmets or headbands with a horn on it.
***spoilers*** In my last run of FFX, I noticed that the very first summoner gravesite you encounter on Gagazet mirrors the pile of your party's weapons that you see in the opening shot of the Zanarkand campfire scene, with Yuna's staff in the middle. Heck, it's the opening shot of the whole game itself. Playing it the first time, the scene comes off as intriguing and curiously somber. But in that last run of mine, I came to Zanarkand and realized that the weapons together form yet another grave, for even a successful pilgrimage results in death. The campfire gathering takes on a funereal resonance, as each of your party members reconcile with the idea of the death to come. As the scene ends, Yuna draws her staff from the pile first. Tidus then closes his eyes and ponders a moment before gathering his sword. Whether any of these details were intentional or not, this seems to parallel these characters' respective journeys in confronting their own mortality. Yuna is committed to her destiny, but because of Tidus this gravesite is ultimately not for her.
Hey love your work! Here's a little fact that may blow your mind. A 'dream' is essentially the same thing as an aeon, it's the result of the dream of the fayth. Whether it's the little boy that became Bahamut, or Tidus existing as a result of the summoning at the top of Mt. Gagazet. After you gain an aeon, the first thing you do is name that aeon whatever you want. The only other 'entity' in this game that you can name is Tidus and contrary to popular belief it's not because Tidus is the POV character. It's because he's a summon like Bahamut, Ifrit or Valefor. This means that the game has been telling us that Tidus is in fact a dream/aeon since the beginning of the game through it's game mechanics.
That's not quite true. The ability to name Tidus is not the game telling us he's a dream. Many games allow the player to name the main character. In fact, FFVII and FFIX as examples both allow the player to name every party member. It's just a continuation of a tradition from the no voice acting era but in this case it only applies to Tidus. Jecht is also a dream but there is no option for the player to name him. The ability to name the main character in FFX doesn't in any way indicate that it is for any reason related to the story. There is certainly nothing within the game that would infer this. The ability to name aeons is just a game mechanic that has no relevance to the story. Anima and Yojimbo are both vocally named by their respective fayths when you acquire them which confirms that aeons have official names. Anima is also vocally named by Seymour the first time you fight him in Macalania. These names remain the same regardless of what the player might call them later on. The use of aeons is optional and it's possible, bar a few exceptions, to complete the game without using them in battle which might explain why other aeons are not vocally named. Aeons are also usually referred to as a whole and not by a particular one. The names chosen by the players are essentially nicknames.
#WaronDavid Summary Bailouts from Confederacy is Destructive, to Americans, but David's Network, would have done it right, without most of them. The Federal Account, would not have invested in unprofitable systems, to Defraud the system in Secret Deals, to Launder The Money: Ear Marks. American Courts don't respect Foreign Courts, in Double Jeopardy, and many others, unless correct by Treaty. American has no Treaty with the Confederacy, responsible for the #WaronDavid, generating false precedent, not applicable in American Law: Confederate by Vote for it's Policies. Estimate on David's solution to Homeless, is Boarding School, on credit, and placing them over Confederate State. Highest Status being the least debts to America, would make them functional Leadership, over the criminal Society of Sorcerers: Under the King David Crypto [Covering Value Economy]. "A conscious man understands that foreplay for a woman begins the moment sex ends and that she will be fully open to him as long as she continues to feel seen, respected and supported." Graham R White LEGAL #WaronDavid Summary ruclips.net/video/d_zcpKXKw9U/видео.html Traitors Created Global Supply Crisis ruclips.net/video/V_P6tskdrrs/видео.html A) Conflict Between Common Good & Common Greed ruclips.net/video/dUSA5U8DJYw/видео.html a) Whistleblower docs reveal Ministry of Truth Lied to Congress: #WaronDavid ruclips.net/video/fJQaSC6zoQU/видео.html 1) Privilege of Power (2005) ruclips.net/video/u03wfwqPd7w/видео.html b) Generations are getting Poorer ruclips.net/video/PkJlTKUaF3Q/видео.html 1) Riskiest Stage of Economic Grief? ruclips.net/video/YII-556DJGI/видео.html 2) Lack of Religion is Destroying USA ruclips.net/video/73eoz9VY0TE/видео.html c) Study 300 K Lives could've been Saved ruclips.net/video/_riGZHl_s6s/видео.html 1) Surveillance Coup vs. Leaders ruclips.net/video/yPl1GyjYMHI/видео.html 2) Food Plant Fires, and Great Reset ruclips.net/video/5dK6bvc3rRk/видео.html 3) Mass Murder Going on Every Day ruclips.net/video/QDbK4tCueN8/видео.html 4) Doctors, Psychotherapists, Liars and Butchers ruclips.net/video/ayWyzvo9SNY/видео.html POLITICAL Much Worse Planed Confederate Espionage ruclips.net/video/pBrqivYEkY4/видео.html A) Hypocrisy of Bailouts ruclips.net/video/jXZoO-FjJyQ/видео.html a) Proxy War on Oil & Gas ruclips.net/video/1suYCfxBdIs/видео.html 1) Let Them eat Cake ruclips.net/video/yiUudvL6n9E/видео.html b) Lowest Homeless Rate ruclips.net/video/F1M60MRTyzA/видео.html B) Cave to Woke Mob ruclips.net/video/85KCQm87Mvw/видео.html a) What's Going On? ruclips.net/video/raBaCSwExbs/видео.html b) U.K. Ordered Censoring ruclips.net/video/VKZ5ksMg2Q4/видео.html 1) 63 Censored Documents ruclips.net/video/8pS1edpeGqI/видео.html C) Gun Control Doesn't work ruclips.net/video/AH7JULjyJZU/видео.html FOREIGN While Distracted by Ukraine ruclips.net/video/1vH2PGmWGaw/видео.html SCIENCE 4 Exercises ruclips.net/video/B3NrTW4BDIA/видео.html No Fap ruclips.net/video/kMD7K-kTKvg/видео.html Testosterone Optimization ruclips.net/video/bJWmJo3w_0Y/видео.html ruclips.net/video/qJXKhu5UZwk/видео.html Dopamine Helps Endurance ruclips.net/video/eJFfoSQcC0A/видео.html ENTERTAINMENT King of Tyre ruclips.net/video/BTseY5UvI7I/видео.html World Economic Forum Young Global Leaders Program ruclips.net/video/ed7mb9DUPHI/видео.html Goes to Therapy Once ruclips.net/video/lGQ0Z_oiERU/видео.html Body Swap ruclips.net/video/R89BPyHddUs/видео.html Black Market Contract Type ruclips.net/video/ucd8JQRtz6M/видео.html Parents Abandoned Me ruclips.net/video/nEuVFAu526E/видео.html You are a Dream ruclips.net/video/fOiYrbWV6J8/видео.html Hail to the King ruclips.net/video/DelhLppPSxY/видео.html Gohan isn't interest in Power ruclips.net/video/0Y76fAt8V4Q/видео.html Calculus Rhapsody ruclips.net/video/uqwC41RDPyg/видео.html Meme ruclips.net/video/Gmbo73FoUhI/видео.html
Just want to let you two know how much these podcasts help on my long commutes to work. Really hate the job, really hate how the state of the economy destroys my earnings, but listening to you two discuss FFX every morning is like my personal picture of the beach on the sunshade, like Jamie Fox had in Collateral.
I didn't comment on it, didn't think about it, but the little bit at the intro has been a welcome addition. Acts as a nice preview and often light hearted intro for what are becoming really heavy and dark parts of the game.
It didn't dawn on me until Mike said "The Aeon, Tidus", that one of the reasons the game lets you name Tidus is because he is an Aeon and as far as I'm aware Aeons are the only people/things in the game you can name.
The little joke about the Ronso statue of Yuna with a horn is extra cool because summoners have horns in other Final Fantasy games. Eiko from 9 and the summoners in Tactics have horns and they brought that back in Final Fantasy 14 as well. I thought that made the joke even cuter.
And it’s extra extra cool because in X-2, if you bring peace between the ronso and guado, the ronso actually build the statue Biran promised. When you come back in chapter 5 after completing gagazet you get to see it complete with horn
I wanted to draw attention to the song that plays all throughout the Zanarkand Ruins, because there's a lot of meaning packed into it. I'm bringing it up ahead of time because we now have all the information we need to understand it and because of how much you talked about accepting that things end right at the end of this video. Depending on the translation, the song title is either Someday the Dream Will End or A Fleeting Dream. I prefer the former translation myself because it is more ominous and definitive, fitting its themes, while the latter is more light-hearted and fanciful. "Someday the Dream Will End" sounds like the literary theme of the game's 3rd act. Most literally, Tidus is a dream of the Fayth, and if he completes his mission here, it will mean his death. This is also the attitude of the party as a whole, as they expect that they are leading Yuna to her own doom. Her dreams of what she might do with her life after Sin are moot. All that dreaming has to end here as she faces her destiny. Not just hers, though; even though defeating Sin is a good thing some part of each of them is lost by her passing. But, in a larger sense, the dream refers to all of this. Spira, as it exists, is the result of the Dreams of the Fayth. It is hopeful, in that this world's nightmare might soon finally stop. This delusion shared by the people of Spira will be dispelled. But at the same time, the system that keeps Spira stable is going to come crashing down. They're going to have to wake up and deal with a world where everything they know isn't true anymore. Notably, the music doesn't stop for battle. Its constant presence is a reminder that this is a grueling push to the end, for everyone. There is a sense of finality and melancholy in it. And of course, Someday The Dream Will End is based on the credits song Suteki da ne. It portrays Yuna and Tidus' star-crossed love, a dream that can never be; either the Final Aeon is summoned and Yuna dies, or Sin is defeated once and for all and Tidus fades away.
Great comment. It is a leitmotif of Yuna's theme, and the way it hits in Zanarkand is one of the most powerful uses of music in the game. Like you said, it has such a feeling of finality to it. Playing through that part of the game as I did recently is so emotional. The music forces you to feel what the party feel at that moment. Being at Zanarkand feels special and climactic regardless; this is the place we've all been waiting for, Tidus' home, the end of the pilgrimage.
Yuna recording it's what makes me feel like this relationship is one if not the best relationship in a videogame. I really really like the realism and subtlety portrayed in the scene
@@LordMalice6d9 Nothing, and that's kind of the point. It's a new feeling for them, they don't know how to properly express it. But honestly, that doesn't mean they're not feeling it any less than adults do. Adults barely know how to express themselves either. That's why the relationship between Tidus and Yuna feels as well done as it does. Name another game that does a better job with a romance subplot. The only one I can think of is Nate and Elena in Uncharted 4, but that's also the culmination of a series.
So listening to this I had a couple thoughts about the Dream Zanarkand revelation I had never really considered before. The first is that now that Tidus is aware of Yuna's ultimate fate as a summoner, and has resolved to defy that fate at all costs (even though he doesn't yet know how he'll be able to do it), he is faced with the same terrible choice that she had to make long ago. If he continues and completes his journey, he will cease to exist. To this point the party still believes that Yuna faces that same dilemma, but the Fayth reveal a deeper truth to the matter. This means that for the rest of the journey, every time Tidus reasserts his will-- his desire to keep Yuna alive-- he is also resigning himself to be sacrificed in her stead. Much like how Yuna and the party couldn't bring themselves to say it out loud, Tidus chooses to keep this truth inside. The second is more meta. Considering that (apart from a tiny section of the Via Purifico) Tidus is the only character we as players get to control, our relationship to Tidus is actually quite similar to that of the summoner and their Aeon. Our desire to play and interact in this world literally creates it into being, as our Fayth (the console) is tasked with conjuring the very reality that we see. Tidus, like an Aeon, responds to our inputs and gives us the power to manipulate the world of Spira. He plays the archetype of the fool to allow the characters a chance to explain to him and to us what this world is all about, but his status as a Dream allows his existence to simply fade from the world at the precise moment that we as players have also completed our task and brought the unending cycle to its conclusion.
I thought the same of his goal to save Yuna in regards to the "refuse to let go" theme. He had this existential belief that it could really happen, even though it's never been done. This reveal faces him with the reality that even in saving Yunas life, he will still have to let her go.
I only just realized this but it's crazy how FFX thematically kinda has the strongest claim of being THE Final Fantasy, quite literally. You know, FANTASY, as in, DREAM. Pretty wild, huh, and I it took me so long to realize this lol.
Fantastic new episode. The discussion on what exactly the Fayth were doing with their "dream" was extremely helpful to me, since I didn't really understand the whole "you are our dream" bit when I played through this section last week. I liked the light joke where you guys compared Tidus to Pinocchio as well. They seem so similar that FFX almost feels like a commentary on Pinocchio at times to me. The twist that the father IS a whale, the idea that "being a real boy" doesn't mean what we think it does, the idea of Zanarkand as a sort of pleasure island with a dark secret. Of course, those are all ideas we see in Campbell and Jung, but something about Tidus's outward foolishness and the Jecht relationship really makes it seem like a real "Pinocchio-core" game.
1:34:25 This is a great question Casen poses regarding Auron's determination to shepherd Yuna and Tidus through the same journey he went through 10 years ago, despite the fact that it changed nothing. It is easy to imagine that someone who has seen the truth of Yevon and Spira would instead immediately dissuade Yuna from the pilgramage and try to find another solution to defeat Sin permanently. But that isn't what Auron wants to do. Why? Put simply, Auron wants Yuna to come to the conclusion that this cycle of suffering is not worth continuing. It is not just that he WANTS her to decide this on her own, it MUST be of her own volition. If Auron, having seen what he has seen, simply acted as a heretic preaching the truth about Yevon, not only would he lose Yuna's trust (she idolizes her father after all), he would be no different from those who preach the teachings of Yevon to pass prescriptions upon the masses. It would also be a betrayal of Braska, who repeatedly emphasized that Yuna must grow to make her own decisions and asked that she be insulated from the workings of Yevon in her childhood. Practically speaking, he also knows that Yuna and Tidus must see the truth of Spira for themselves, rather than indoctrinating them to it. There is some significance here as well with Yuna representing the next generation. She is half Al-Bhed and thus is the product of two worlds/cultures (as an aside Seymour is this as well!). By birth, she is uniquely poised to guide Spira in a new direction, as it is often expected that the younger generation will do. Ironically, as Yuna must ultimately decide whether to die for Spira, or live and find another way forward, Tidus (who we could also say is a child of two worlds) now has to decide how to use the little life he has left. Above all, Auron's overall reticence about the truth of Spira reveals his integrity of character. He demonstrates supreme faith in Yuna and Tidus despite the suffering he has experienced. He is a guide to them but not a commander, a paternal figure who ultimately trusts that they will make the right decision.
You nailed it here. Absolutely spot on analysis on Auron. This contributes to why he’s my all time favorite. Also that he has the resolve to make a pilgrimage twice, defeat sin twice, travel sin to DZ to take care of Tidus all to come back and guide Yuna as well to fulfill his promise to his friends while also liberating Spira. What a stand up dude and amazing character.
It took me a long time to totally grasp the intricacies of the plot and the twist of FF 10, and this podcast helped me reach an even deeper understanding. I honestly think it’s one of the best twists in the series.
About Sending, Auron resists it too when Yuna sends people all the time, even though he's regularly in the same room. They even animate him bracing himself and sometimes he makes grunting sounds.
When Ginnem stops Yuna from sending her, I remember Lulu commenting on how Ginnem isn't even human anymore. I wonder if there is a point at which sending is no longer an option. Like, Ginnem has deteriorated enough and has become angry enough that she is more fiend than human and as a result, can no longer be sent. I mean, otherwise, why would a summoner even need guardians? The summoner could just send fiends away.
I think, like fiends, some unsent can't JUST be sent. They also must be defeated. Which may explain why Yuna isn't allowed to send Seymour after we beat him. If she had tried before, it might not have worked, but after being defeated, they had to stop Yuna from actually doing the sending because it WOULD have worked. Seems to fit, but I could be wrong.
Yeah Ginnem seemed sound in mind to stop her from being sent and was to far gone for it to happen. She knew at that time that she was probably going to have an easier time actually dying that time around when yuna came around then before. Kinda funny to put some thought I to something that was probably never really thought of from the devs lol themselves. Just us as fans putting our 2c on the matter.
I just realized there IS another example in the game of an unsent actively preventing his own sendingthrough sheer willpower. When Yuna tries to send Jyscal Guado, Auron braces himself.
36:30 If you choose the standard Sphere Grid for all the characters, Kimhari's path is designed to be the shortest and will have players have to decide where to continue his path and what skills he'll learn from other characters' paths. I can't remember if by this point in the game his path has concluded or not
I'm fairly sure it will without much/any grinding. Biran and Yenke's starts are based off of Kimahri's though so the fight isn't impossible even if you completely neglected him.
You usually finish it around halfway through the game if you're keeping everyone relatively equally levelled iirc. Very much designed for Kimhari to go wherever you choose after that, I usually end up going down Rikku's path so I can steal to my heart's content.
Just to put this out there, do remember talk to all characters on the airship both before and after unlocking the final dungeon, multiple times each; they have a lot of interesting lines, *especially* Auron's third line after unlocking the final dungeon summarizes the core of this story so much.
I was today years old when I found out the dream Zanarkand was actually a place in Spira. I had always assumed it was part of some other dimension that Sin could somehow travel to by creating a wormhole. Not sure how I came up with that logic when I was ten lmao.
I love that the Biran and Yenke will make sure the Ronso will make Yuna's statue have a horn, which is at least partially a reference to past summoners who have typically been depicted with a horn. Love it, very wholesome
52:00 Spoilers for end of game . . . I think Seymour's design resembling an insect/bee is to match Yu Yevon's character design as a bug/spider. Both being parasitic to Spira.
The discussion on Tidus' actual free will or lack thereof is very interesting from a meta standpoint, especially since you guys view it as some sort of parallel to narratology as a whole. Now, whether the Fayth did intend or not for Jecht and Tidus to be their saviors-meaning both father and son were basically dream-engineered in order to fulfill that task... There certainly are some story bits that support this kind of speculation (first thing that comes to mind is, as someone else pointed out here on the comments, the Bahamut fayth being around when Jecht showed Tidus and us, the audience, his shot). A counterargument would be the fact that, while revisiting the fayth in their respective temples, we come to learnt that Jecht coming to Spira (and ultimately becoming Sin) was a total coincidence, perhaps something the fayth didn't even think of as possible before it actually happened. That would also explain why it took them 1000 years to start thinking "yo, this stuff about being constantly dreaming is kinda tiresome, don't you all agree lol". I lean into the theory or headcanon-I still love that the game is vague about it, allowing us to talk about these possibilities 20 years later-that the people in Dream Zanarkand live and die just as anyone in Spira does, which would also include having children, of course. Also, I'd love for you guys to touch on the moral dilemma of ending Dream Zanarkand's existence since, well, we come to learn that all the people living there are actually sentient and have histories of their own.😅
Everything from the boss fight with the Sanctuary Keeper, through Rikku's conversation with Yuna, to Tidus listening to Yuna's sphere, to the reprise of the opening campfire scene, and running down the highway in Zanarkand Ruins to the stadium, is the most heart-wrenching sequence in any video game I've played by a mile. Well... until later on in the same game. Such a brilliant final act.
The bit at 1:10:00 ish when you talk about the fact the Fayth created the man who would become Sin and they infiltrated the system… that is such a good point! I’ve never heard that revelation before and it’s sooo good! The layers!!
I love you guys so much. Thank you so much for continuing this in depth analysis of my favorite game of all time. Also, that conversation about letting go was one I really needed to hear. Thank you.
40:27 so glad you guys brought up the Yuna statue with a horn bit, because I always read this as a reference to how the Summoner job class in games like FFIII, FFV and FF Tactics all had horns. Therefore future summoners would see the Yuna Statue and believe that summoners DID have horns, and would wear them to respect the history of the craft. Such a cool detail.
2 thoughts I've never had before that I found interesting. 1. When Yenke and Biran talk about making a statue for Yuna with a grand horn....FF summoners traditionally have garb with horned hats. I know the Ronso do too, but HAD to be an easter egg of some kind. 2. I find it interesting, given the references to sports and religion through out the game, that the 2 people that the dreaming faythe put their hopes on and brought to defeat Sin just HAPPEN to both be star Blitzball players.
@@santinopaone-hoyland I just meant it has more of an impact now, especially after the talk in the series about how sports is equated to religion, both in game and in real world. So naturally the saviors of the world MUST be star sports players. Shows how even the fayth revere them.
Really cool to put the plot and themes of this game into the context that Spira is heavily implied to be pre-shinra version of Gaia from FF7 in FF X-2.
Although I arrive late to the discussion... I just wanted to say how many things in human culture come down to letting go. As a practitioner of Martial Arts I have been told this soooo many times. Throw your ego out of the window is A MUST to be a good martial artists. In practical terms, clinging to your ego makes you stiff, unable to listen to the opponent and, ultimately, this means you get hurt. Just a thought, thank you so much for this amazing podcast!
This is what I like about in-depth discussions, gives me a different perspective on things I either missed or too dumb to understand lol. I have a whole lot more appreciation with the overall theme of FFX.
Yeah, that point you brought up about the yuna staring in the distance thing was one of my "holy shit" moments. Its something that when I noticed it and put it together, it just blew me away. Just one of the many reasons why ff10 is so solid.
Dream Zanarkand really reminds me of Lovecraft and Old Gods. The idea that we all exist as just a dream of some greater intelligence has always been fascinating to me. We've all had those dreams that feel so incredibly real, and seem to last for years, even though you only dream for about two hours a night. The thought that the people my mind conjured might have had lives, thoughts, hopes that all ceased to exist when I opened my eyes is both haunting and exciting to me.
I like the options you have with Yojimbou; if you give him more money than he asks for you get extra items and his affinity starts at a higher level, so you have a better chance of getting his Zanmatou attack right away.
His affinity doesn't actually change from that, but I do like that he takes what you say you want his services for very seriously and it affects everything about how he acts in combat. If you say "to defeat the most powerful foes" he will use weaker attacks on regular enemies but have a much higher chance of using Zanmatou on powerful bosses. If you say "to slaughter fiends" it's the opposite, using universally better attacks besides Zanmatou and using it more often on random fiends. And if you say "training as a summoner" much the same but he will do better moves if you give him over half your maximum gil and worse moves if you give him less - as there is no reason to hoard gil if you are really following the summoner's path.
Haven't finished the episode yet but wanted to bring this up. It's my belief that the reason you can name Tidus in the beginning of the game at all, when you can't name anyone else, is actually a really clever foreshadowing that he's a summoning of the fayth akin to the other aeions since they're the only other beings that you're able to name as the player. Of course we the player think of it in the beginning as "oh this is typical Final Fantasy where I name my character" but when the reveal happens at this point of the game I think you can look back and realize that this might have actually been a foreshadowing.
you guys are amazing. some of the best content on RUclips. Immersive, thoughtful, insightful, and entertaining analysis. please, more than anything else, feel better. I wouldn't be upset if you guys missed a week
I absolutely disagree with the concept of eternal life becoming boring. The amount of "what ifs" that I consider when writing, could become the basis for as many stories as I want to tell... infinite universes created by changing simple parts of life into fantastical "couldn't really happen, but what if?" Beyond that, people are individuals, and their relationships create meaningful existences simply by existing and interacting with one another. For people who like friendships and having as many as possible... in a scenario where people lived forever, these sorts of people could live an eternity creating and fostering enjoyable relationships (I'm not one of those particular people.) This sort of framework gives me plenty to write about, because stories aren't always about what happens, but why that means something to the characters involved in the events, and the entire story would change with new characters inserted. If people keep having children for eternity, and expanding into the stars, terraforming new worlds... the possibilities are endless for new things to learn about other people (and the stories about the people who do more things together.) I don't believe in the theory of the heat death of the universe either. That assumes a finite amount of energy in the universe, and nothing new being added to it, to continue the processes we see today. I don't think science understands enough about reality to make such a conclusion. Just like the expanding of the universe we see today... it doesn't mean the universe will always be expanding... it could be a cycle that results in shrinking at some point, that allows for a fluctuating universe, instead of just expand and collapse into an ending/restart or whatever. I do not believe that death must be a thing for existence to matter. None of this even touches on my religious beliefs, which are quite unlike most you'll find in this world... such as a future of mankind living on earth, returned to their proper state of perfection - without death, disease, or anything that causes the pain and suffering we see today, none of which was part of God's design for what He created (it's a temporary condition, from which most of man's philosophers have come to incorrect conclusions from, since it's all they have known, and they don't take the Bible into account as a reliable source of data points to come to a more complete understanding of our reality from.) I, for one, look forward to living forever. (and not as some disembodied existence that's part of some unknowable supreme entity.)
this Kimari take is awesome, and I feel that Mike's definition of going on a different path (Lulus) and how that rounds out his journey work with ANY choice you make for Kimari. He is meant to go into ANY other characters tree, he doesn't have many spheres in the center. mechanically matching the thematic, which is SO FETCHING COOL!! The idea that Ultima is at the center of his grid is a cool nod to his inner strength.
For Seymour and not being sent: I think its a case of the writers wanting him to be a compelling threat but they don't want him to be always hounding the heroes. So they have him be beaten but not Sent, but it causes some issues that I think they didn't think of. Like it's one thing if Yuna just decides not to, it's another to just have them not do it. It's a problem but I don't super hold it against them, because in a way, Seymours refusal to die represents part of the cycle of death and how hard it is to break it. He's been fought 3 times as of them reaching Zanarkand, and I think that eas intentional.
My father’s come to an age where we all have to mentally prepare to let him go. Somehow, this conversation inspired me to accept that I need to begin turning those gears in my mind that I refuse to let turn. Still brought the tears though.
Also fun fact that I liked: Kimhari's solo boss fight scales their difficulty based on his overall level. So it best to avoid using him so they are weak, and you can use Lancet (I think that's how it's spelt) to get Ronso Rage abilities from them. Also, on the mountain being sacred: I think it makes sense. It's the last barrier to Zanarkand, and crossing it is not easy. If the Church of Yevon wanted to make the pilgrimage this holy path, bringing in the people who naturally live there helps build that idea. They construct a fake sense of sacredness using just naturally occurring things, and I think that's a really neat aspect of the mountain. And I love the call back to older games with the whole "Summoner with horns".
i resonated much with this episode of the podcast, especially how death is inescapable yet as we find reasons and beauty in life, it makes everything worthwhile. It’s always a pleasure to listen to you two as well as read the comments of everyone. Thanks!
After playing through the game again, I got the sense that when Bahamut was shown interacting with Tidus, it was more of a symbolic way to show that "someone" was controlling what happens rather than Tidus seeing him. Anytime Tidus would veer from the plan, someone had to interject.
If I lived a billion years, I could just redo everything I had already done with the same joy as the first time. Kind of like replaying an RPG from 20 years ago and experiencing it like the first time, since I don't remember any of the story. I don't think you'd get bored with eternity, because all your memories would not be eternal.
This easily became my favorite podcast of all time, to the point that you guys got me to finally play and finish FFX (coming from the old PSX FFs, I was always repelled by this one). The way you analyze games is, I think, the proper way to go, so far from the common cynical approach of nitpicking everything and trying to tear the thing apart instead of finding good in it, even in its flaws. This is such as breath of fresh air!!! Wanted to comment on the inmortality discussion that was some prevalent on this episode (loved it!), particularly on what Casen said about the theosis or "becoming one with God". I'm not sure but I think there's a small detail that points more to what we catholics actually believe, which is we won't "kill our ego" or our "will" and surrender it to God, but rather align it to God's Will, wich is the desirable thing to do (although hard) in the end. We believe we are made for God, and only in aligning our will to his we can be truly happy... it's not that we "dissappear" in the buddhist sense if and when we achieve this, quite to the contrary, we become even more ourselves as we realize our potential. As Saint Augustine wrote: "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You". So yeah, it's not that we believe the eternal life is just a continuation of this one, in this state (that would be Hell, as Mike pointed), but something rather different, that we only "see" in small and fleeting moments during our time here. Anyway, amazing stuff, really enjoying all your episodes! Please keep them coming!
I don't have any insightful comments to add to today's discussion, I just wanted to chime in because in all the years I've been watching I haven't contributed. I don't have the financial opportunity to support the Patreon right now, but I have been watching since the early DPG days and I think the new podcast format you've been doing for a while now is really excellent content. Unrelated, but I remember when I first hit this reveal for the first time I was kind of reminded of Link's Awakening (sky whale, world of dreams, etc.). I love the role reversal this put on the cast and how Yuna catches on to him pretty quickly - a really nice touch on how far their relationship has come.
Kimahri is pretty much always a counter culture guy. If you pay attention he always is the first to side with tidus and wakka is always last. Like in Bevelle when he breaks open the door to the fayth. Kinda gives me a whole new appreciation of Kimahri. Also, in terms of Gaggazettes importance. In ancient Jerusalem, the key to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was given to a Muslim family. This is because the Church is used by several different Christian denominations. The Church was built on the site of Jesus's Tomb, or at least where they believed it was. The family has held the key for centuries and they consistently fight with current non-Christian government to keep the Church open on Easter. Theyre devoted the their culture, as natives to Jerusalem and not any government or religion. Similarly the Ronso culture is to protect the Holy Tomb/Place of Worship of Zanarkand (the temple or the Blitzball stadium) and the Zanarkand Fayth (kinda a tomb), regardless of their religion.
Yuna getting a statue with a horn on the forehead is a call back to the classical final fantasy summoner class where a forehead horn was a standard part of the class's costume. It's a nice little reference.
Some more insight from FFX-2: Kimahri has become the elder of the Ronso. It's unclear if that is meant to be literal, like he's the oldest living Ronso left, or if he's just the Ronso that is the strongest or most notable. His main problem is dealing with a faction of younger Ronso that want to go to war with the Guado, to kill them all as revenge for the dead Ronso. This can go several ways because of how X-2's narrative is structured, but you can get a statue to Yuna built, though I can't remember off hand if it has a great horn or not. Take care of yourselves, guys. That was a lot of coughing this episode. Don't push yourselves.
Tidus is one of many of the fayth ensconced in that wall, as is Jecht. They were real at one point. He has his own thoughts, however there is influence from others.
I do think Jecht ending up in Spira in the first place was a coincidence. If you redo the Kilika trials and talk to the Ifrit fayth after the final Bevelle scenes he talks a bit about Jecht ending up in Spira and becoming Sin and the conversation implies to me that it just happened to go as it did outside of anyone's grand designs. It's only after that that multiple different parties - the fayth, Jecht, Auron - all had partly intersecting things they wanted to do and achieve and worked around and with what the other(s) did, more taking advantage of opportunities presenting themselves than having a big plan to be following from the start. With that being said I also don't think Jecht and Tidus' relationship was engineered by the fayth, similarly having it be them running with an opportunity as it presented itself after 1000 years rather than setting it up that way. Worth noting that all the fayth (and a bunch of NPCs for that matter) add a good bit more worldbuilding if you talk to them near the end of the story. Just be mindful of Dark Valefor and Shiva in this version of the game.
I’d agree that the Fayth engineering Tidas’ enmity for his father may be taking it too far but the scene where Jecht showed the Jecht shot to Tidas as a boy had Bahamut already showing an interest in them before Jecht was ‘accidentally’ lost at sea so I take that as a strong indication that there was no accident in that happening.
I like how the idea of a horn on yunas statue can be connected to the summoners in final fantasy tactics and the summoners in 9. Idk if any other have that design/concept
FFIII, FFV, FFXI, and FFVI. Basically, if Summoner is a job that unit can change into, then it has the horn. (Very perceptive of you to pick up on this, by the way. Good work.)
Great work as always! few thoughts 1) in FF-X2 there is a statue of Yuna with a grand horn on her head so that is kind of funny if you google it. 2) I always assumed what Seymour fuses into was something he commanded or created like how the Guado enemies at home conjure or control fiends 3) if you look closely every Fayth statue is face down wonder what that could be or part of the sleeping/dreaming theme
In a strange way, old zanarkand is almost affirming Seymour’s belief that the only way to a complete lack of suffering is to no longer live. However, the only real difference is that Seymour wants to cut everything short of living it’s full course. Zanarkands life course, as a whole, was done 1000 years ago
I cant thank you guys enough for making all this content about my favorite game of all time. I love the in depth analysis! Don't forget to talk about Remiem Temple at some point.
Fun fact: in the original version of FFX’s story, the big twist was that Tidus was dead the whole time. He was killed when Sin attacked Zanarkand and became a wondering spirit for 1000 years before he found Besaid. But the writers were worried that this would be too similar to The Sixth Sence, which came out during the making of this game. So it was changed where Auron was the one who was dead the whole time.
I'm glad it was changed, honestly. Given how intricately his very existence ties into Sin and the pilgrimage, the final version works a lot better in delivering the unique story X came to be.
Michael’s optional answer on 20:17 through me off so much, I had a really good belly laugh. I thought he would say something like brothers of a tribe or clan, but instead brothers in Christ.🤣
Seymour seems to get the looks for his forms based on how many souls he's consumed. We see clearly with Seymour Natus that he absorbs the pyrflies from Kinoc's body and the others, meanwhile with Seymour Flux he had literally just murdered a ton of Ronso. I think he used their pyrflies to construct his Seymour Flux state. It even uses a move called Spear of Atrophy, spears being associated with the Ronso through Kimahri. In his final form, he's using the souls of the dead floating around Sin's body, using Sin's destruction to gather power for himself.
the whole thing about not letting go of zanarkand really reminds me of how new vegas can be seen as telling fans to let go of the fallout series and move on. we are seeing this so much with alot of companies. people still clinging on to their memories of the past when what they love has clearly changed. bioware is the most recent example no one will let it go.
I think that a lot of people who are upset about their game or movie franchises changing is that new staff are coming in and killing the franchise as it had existed, changing it (while benefiting from it having a built-in fanbase from the franchise as it previously existed), and then telling people to stop clinging to their memories of the past, because it's dead and gone. It would be like if some dude killed your mom, and then told you to stop crying about it because she's gone, just let her go and move on with your life, and definitely don't be angry at him for killing her. Even though they should eventually move on with their lives, people still have a right to be upset when something good is taken from them.
Obviously a bit late but I'm not sure I agree with the whole "fayth manufactured Jecht and Tidus to stop Yu Yevon" theory brought up. It's a bit unhelpful to just try and pull down a theory but I just don't personally think it lines up with the messaging and thematics of the game, despite still being plausible given what we know lore wise. For a start it makes Jecht and Tidus' characters and influence feel predetermined. If the fayth dreamt them in such a way where they would be perfect in defying Yu Yevon, it limits the ability of the story to really deem their actions and choices as entirely their own. In particular this would be both of their choices to sacrifice themselves. I think this runs contrary to the anti-control and determinism messaging of the game. The entire journey of the game is about breaking from a linear spiral, about breaking free from controlling forces that limit and confine people into not wanting or desiring more. I think the fayth having pre ordained the lives of Tidus and Jecht takes away from that theme. Secondly I just think the "Tidus wanting to kill Jecht" argument doesn't really align with a lot of the source material. Bahamut is never really shown taking an active presence in dream Zanarkand or Tidus/Jecht's relationship, and serves more as an observer. This is just speculation on my part, but I believe all the fayth are continually watching over this dream Zanarkand too, as why would they conjure up this dream if they themselves could not enjoy or perceive it? And I also don't think there's much to indicate that Tidus ever wanted to kill Jecht out of hatred or jealousy. I understand and to an extent agree with the comments around the Oedipus complex with Tidus, but I'd argue that manifested more in Tidus resenting his father rather than outright wanting to kill him (or even just harm in general). Tidus is not a character who really explicitly wishes death on anyone, and as we see throughout the whole game, is running away from the fact that Jecht actually wants Tidus to kill him. Maybe it's just a overall personal thing, but I just think the fayth/bahamut wanting Tidus to kill Jecht sort of warps the narrative and general thematic vibe of the game towards something darker that I don't personally think was intended. I think Jecht was plucked from Dream Zanarkand because he was the one who they saw as most capable of breaking the cycle, not that he was raised to be this role, and Tidus' abduction by Jecht and Auron was their choice and part of their plan, not anything the fayth created. Again it's kind of lame to just make a comment trying to rain on the parade of the theories brought up here, but personally it was just something I heavily disagreed with while listening (which is obviously a good thing it's fun to be mentally contested on my view of the game).
I've loved watching you guys go through this. If it helps, I've noticed a few things; 1. Seymour's ability to absorb people (once they are killed and made into pyreflies) is important. It's possible Seymour Flux absorbed the pyreflies (souls) of all the Ronso he killed - his design of the large glowing orb he's sort of fused with (and the cage that surrounds it) might represent his domination over them. He gets progressively bigger (stronger) when he absorbs more pyreflies - this is elaborated on in FFX2, but is made obvious in the gameplay - first when he kills a small handful of soldiers to become Seymour Natus, then he kills many many Ronso to become Seymour Flux, and finally inside Sin, he's able to absorb an incredible amount of souls as Sin rampages around, becoming his final form. It's also possible he can absorb fiends once killed, as they are essentially also pyreflies, explaining why he gets so massive inside Sin, which is infested with fiends. 2. The water spiral at the top of Gagazet with the fayth could be harkening back to the water pillars you can see in the Farplane, implying summoners (perhaps even in other worlds) are currently summoning pyreflies (aeons) from the Farplane itself. 3. This is a bit of a throwback, but the dichotomy of Jecht's attitude is very consistent with real-life abusers, who present a certain face to the world while privately expressing a very different self. It's possible Jecht only truly regretted his abusive attitudes towards Tidus once we was ripped into Spira, and had a new perspective to reflect. In a way, it's possible Jecht wants Tidus to kill him as a way of 'making up' for those years of abuse, and thereby freeing both of them.
45:37 Actually about this point, I think it has something to do with Tidus conversation with Rikku that clued Seymour in to realize that Tidus is a "son of Jecht." It was after Rikku see the faith and determination in Tidus that she said he sounded like a leader there to which Tidus replied he is a "star of Zanarkand Abes."
1:26:17 Wow I never thought we'd get an Eternal Darkness reference in this podcast series of FFX haha damn I tried not to remember that pillar scene! Great game tho. Great episode once again! I think back when I played FFX I understood about 80% of the Fayth/Dream/Zanarkand logic, but I recall some video or stream discussion you did years ago (back when your opinions quite differed) helped clarify it for me that "summon" was the biggest keyword to remember. It's a great existential twist, maybe not quite on the level of FF7's but it still does the job of sticking our hero with a tough, humbling new outlook on himself and the journey.
No discussion of the difficulty spike at Seymour Flux? That fight almost ruined my playthrough first time. Only way I got by was prestocking overdrives for all party members and aeons and unloading. I died so many times ...
When i was a kid i got stuck on this fight for so long that i ended up replaying the whole game and doing things more efficiently so i could crush seymour
Whew this one was heavy. First listen through of your guys’s content. Thank you for sharing your ideas towards the end of the video, it’s really made me start to think a lot.
If I'm not mistaken, Tidus may have referred to himself as the star player of the zanarkand abes during the cutscene with Rikku. Now that would be a big inference for Seymour to make, but the link is there.
I love that you guys mentioned Eternal Darkness, because that was exactly where my brain went with the people in the wall. Which brings me to another thought, man it sure would be really cool to see an Analysis of Eternal Darkness, so many people have no idea what that game is and how interesting of an installment it was in the Survival Horror genre. People still rave about RE4 but ED was where it was really at for me.
The discussion towards the end of this episode was fantastic. I know it would be a huge commitment, but y’all should really play ff14 if you want to see another game tackling a these themes.
Love listening to you guys, thanks for doing these. I hope you guys go check out Yemiem Temple in the Calm Lands! I think it is worth taking a look at. To add to your points on Kimahri, it is represented in the gameplay that he is learning from his travels throughout Spira by using Lancet. This ability allows him to steal abilities from his enemies, and using a few of them at certain points in the game can cause Kimahri to seem extra powerful.
The kid was more like his conscious. We could see him so we could see how they would nudge Tidus the right way. But Tidus never saw him. Just always had this feeling when the kid spoke to him. It wasn't words he heard. But a feeling of what to say or how to act.
For the next episode, play up to the point where Tidus and Yuna have a long conversation with the purple hooded boy.
Also, the games up for vote on Patreon are Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, and Spec Ops: The Line.
Well they told us a spoiler of how the summoner fuses the guardian with sin
@@obsidianx01 Are you saying we spoiled this? We learned this in Luca when Auron told Tidus his father was Sin. In this episode, Seymour reveals it to everyone else.
I noticed it too, we know he became sin, but we don't know specifically how or why. Or that it even specifically has to be a guardian.
I don't feel it's a major one at this point in the game really, but I remember being kinda surprised on my first playthrough as to the exact process.
Live the content though guys, keep it up :)
1:46:00 have u ever read the Ringworld book series they have a chemical that can boost your lifespan by 50 years and the main character is like 250 years old, but they also have space craft and other planets. I would get bored on earth with that much time but if we had space to explore you would want to live longer for those decade long journeys
Fingers crossed for Horizon and especially Metal Gear
I never really thought about it before but I think Yuna's statue with a horn is kind of a funny little reference to some of the earlier summoner job designs which had helmets or headbands with a horn on it.
I was just about to post this, FF9 definitely comes to mind because their summoners had horns
Yeah I always took that as a nod to Summoners traditional look from Final Fantasy 3 NES
I was thinking the same thing.
Brilliant
When they were telling the story of the war I was literally imagining the ff tactics Summoners since I'm playing that right now lol
***spoilers***
In my last run of FFX, I noticed that the very first summoner gravesite you encounter on Gagazet mirrors the pile of your party's weapons that you see in the opening shot of the Zanarkand campfire scene, with Yuna's staff in the middle.
Heck, it's the opening shot of the whole game itself. Playing it the first time, the scene comes off as intriguing and curiously somber. But in that last run of mine, I came to Zanarkand and realized that the weapons together form yet another grave, for even a successful pilgrimage results in death. The campfire gathering takes on a funereal resonance, as each of your party members reconcile with the idea of the death to come.
As the scene ends, Yuna draws her staff from the pile first. Tidus then closes his eyes and ponders a moment before gathering his sword. Whether any of these details were intentional or not, this seems to parallel these characters' respective journeys in confronting their own mortality. Yuna is committed to her destiny, but because of Tidus this gravesite is ultimately not for her.
Mike: This podcast won't last forever.
Me: Them's fightin' words.
Hey love your work! Here's a little fact that may blow your mind. A 'dream' is essentially the same thing as an aeon, it's the result of the dream of the fayth. Whether it's the little boy that became Bahamut, or Tidus existing as a result of the summoning at the top of Mt. Gagazet. After you gain an aeon, the first thing you do is name that aeon whatever you want. The only other 'entity' in this game that you can name is Tidus and contrary to popular belief it's not because Tidus is the POV character. It's because he's a summon like Bahamut, Ifrit or Valefor. This means that the game has been telling us that Tidus is in fact a dream/aeon since the beginning of the game through it's game mechanics.
My mind is blown.
That's not quite true. The ability to name Tidus is not the game telling us he's a dream. Many games allow the player to name the main character. In fact, FFVII and FFIX as examples both allow the player to name every party member. It's just a continuation of a tradition from the no voice acting era but in this case it only applies to Tidus. Jecht is also a dream but there is no option for the player to name him.
The ability to name the main character in FFX doesn't in any way indicate that it is for any reason related to the story. There is certainly nothing within the game that would infer this. The ability to name aeons is just a game mechanic that has no relevance to the story. Anima and Yojimbo are both vocally named by their respective fayths when you acquire them which confirms that aeons have official names. Anima is also vocally named by Seymour the first time you fight him in Macalania. These names remain the same regardless of what the player might call them later on. The use of aeons is optional and it's possible, bar a few exceptions, to complete the game without using them in battle which might explain why other aeons are not vocally named. Aeons are also usually referred to as a whole and not by a particular one. The names chosen by the players are essentially nicknames.
@@markritchie584 Zzzz
#WaronDavid Summary
Bailouts from Confederacy is Destructive, to Americans, but David's Network, would have done it right, without most of them. The Federal Account, would not have invested in unprofitable systems, to Defraud the system in Secret Deals, to Launder The Money: Ear Marks.
American Courts don't respect Foreign Courts, in Double Jeopardy, and many others, unless correct by Treaty. American has no Treaty with the Confederacy, responsible for the #WaronDavid, generating false precedent, not applicable in American Law: Confederate by Vote for it's Policies.
Estimate on David's solution to Homeless, is Boarding School, on credit, and placing them over Confederate State. Highest Status being the least debts to America, would make them functional Leadership, over the criminal Society of Sorcerers: Under the King David Crypto [Covering Value Economy].
"A conscious man understands that foreplay for a woman begins the moment sex ends and that she will be fully open to him as long as she continues to feel seen, respected and supported."
Graham R White
LEGAL
#WaronDavid Summary
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Traitors Created Global Supply Crisis
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A) Conflict Between Common Good & Common Greed
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a) Whistleblower docs reveal Ministry of Truth Lied to Congress: #WaronDavid
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1) Privilege of Power (2005)
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b) Generations are getting Poorer
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1) Riskiest Stage of Economic Grief?
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2) Lack of Religion is Destroying USA
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c) Study 300 K Lives could've been Saved
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1) Surveillance Coup vs. Leaders
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2) Food Plant Fires, and Great Reset
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3) Mass Murder Going on Every Day
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4) Doctors, Psychotherapists, Liars and Butchers
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POLITICAL
Much Worse Planed Confederate Espionage
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A) Hypocrisy of Bailouts
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a) Proxy War on Oil & Gas
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1) Let Them eat Cake
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b) Lowest Homeless Rate
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B) Cave to Woke Mob
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a) What's Going On?
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b) U.K. Ordered Censoring
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1) 63 Censored Documents
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C) Gun Control Doesn't work
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FOREIGN
While Distracted by Ukraine
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SCIENCE
4 Exercises
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No Fap
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Testosterone Optimization
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Dopamine Helps Endurance
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ENTERTAINMENT
King of Tyre
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World Economic Forum Young Global Leaders Program
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Goes to Therapy Once
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Body Swap
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Black Market Contract Type
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Parents Abandoned Me
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You are a Dream
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Hail to the King
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Gohan isn't interest in Power
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Calculus Rhapsody
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Meme
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So cool and
Just want to let you two know how much these podcasts help on my long commutes to work. Really hate the job, really hate how the state of the economy destroys my earnings, but listening to you two discuss FFX every morning is like my personal picture of the beach on the sunshade, like Jamie Fox had in Collateral.
I didn't comment on it, didn't think about it, but the little bit at the intro has been a welcome addition. Acts as a nice preview and often light hearted intro for what are becoming really heavy and dark parts of the game.
I skipped it at the beginning, but came right back because I thought the same.
It didn't dawn on me until Mike said "The Aeon, Tidus", that one of the reasons the game lets you name Tidus is because he is an Aeon and as far as I'm aware Aeons are the only people/things in the game you can name.
The little joke about the Ronso statue of Yuna with a horn is extra cool because summoners have horns in other Final Fantasy games. Eiko from 9 and the summoners in Tactics have horns and they brought that back in Final Fantasy 14 as well. I thought that made the joke even cuter.
And it’s extra extra cool because in X-2, if you bring peace between the ronso and guado, the ronso actually build the statue Biran promised. When you come back in chapter 5 after completing gagazet you get to see it complete with horn
I wanted to draw attention to the song that plays all throughout the Zanarkand Ruins, because there's a lot of meaning packed into it. I'm bringing it up ahead of time because we now have all the information we need to understand it and because of how much you talked about accepting that things end right at the end of this video.
Depending on the translation, the song title is either Someday the Dream Will End or A Fleeting Dream. I prefer the former translation myself because it is more ominous and definitive, fitting its themes, while the latter is more light-hearted and fanciful. "Someday the Dream Will End" sounds like the literary theme of the game's 3rd act.
Most literally, Tidus is a dream of the Fayth, and if he completes his mission here, it will mean his death.
This is also the attitude of the party as a whole, as they expect that they are leading Yuna to her own doom. Her dreams of what she might do with her life after Sin are moot. All that dreaming has to end here as she faces her destiny. Not just hers, though; even though defeating Sin is a good thing some part of each of them is lost by her passing.
But, in a larger sense, the dream refers to all of this. Spira, as it exists, is the result of the Dreams of the Fayth. It is hopeful, in that this world's nightmare might soon finally stop. This delusion shared by the people of Spira will be dispelled. But at the same time, the system that keeps Spira stable is going to come crashing down. They're going to have to wake up and deal with a world where everything they know isn't true anymore.
Notably, the music doesn't stop for battle. Its constant presence is a reminder that this is a grueling push to the end, for everyone. There is a sense of finality and melancholy in it.
And of course, Someday The Dream Will End is based on the credits song Suteki da ne. It portrays Yuna and Tidus' star-crossed love, a dream that can never be; either the Final Aeon is summoned and Yuna dies, or Sin is defeated once and for all and Tidus fades away.
Great comment.
It is a leitmotif of Yuna's theme, and the way it hits in Zanarkand is one of the most powerful uses of music in the game.
Like you said, it has such a feeling of finality to it. Playing through that part of the game as I did recently is so emotional. The music forces you to feel what the party feel at that moment.
Being at Zanarkand feels special and climactic regardless; this is the place we've all been waiting for, Tidus' home, the end of the pilgrimage.
Yuna recording it's what makes me feel like this relationship is one if not the best relationship in a videogame. I really really like the realism and subtlety portrayed in the scene
Its just puppy dog love for me. They're both just teenagers. What does your average teenager actually know about love?
@@LordMalice6d9 Nothing, and that's kind of the point. It's a new feeling for them, they don't know how to properly express it. But honestly, that doesn't mean they're not feeling it any less than adults do. Adults barely know how to express themselves either. That's why the relationship between Tidus and Yuna feels as well done as it does. Name another game that does a better job with a romance subplot. The only one I can think of is Nate and Elena in Uncharted 4, but that's also the culmination of a series.
So listening to this I had a couple thoughts about the Dream Zanarkand revelation I had never really considered before. The first is that now that Tidus is aware of Yuna's ultimate fate as a summoner, and has resolved to defy that fate at all costs (even though he doesn't yet know how he'll be able to do it), he is faced with the same terrible choice that she had to make long ago. If he continues and completes his journey, he will cease to exist. To this point the party still believes that Yuna faces that same dilemma, but the Fayth reveal a deeper truth to the matter. This means that for the rest of the journey, every time Tidus reasserts his will-- his desire to keep Yuna alive-- he is also resigning himself to be sacrificed in her stead. Much like how Yuna and the party couldn't bring themselves to say it out loud, Tidus chooses to keep this truth inside.
The second is more meta. Considering that (apart from a tiny section of the Via Purifico) Tidus is the only character we as players get to control, our relationship to Tidus is actually quite similar to that of the summoner and their Aeon. Our desire to play and interact in this world literally creates it into being, as our Fayth (the console) is tasked with conjuring the very reality that we see. Tidus, like an Aeon, responds to our inputs and gives us the power to manipulate the world of Spira. He plays the archetype of the fool to allow the characters a chance to explain to him and to us what this world is all about, but his status as a Dream allows his existence to simply fade from the world at the precise moment that we as players have also completed our task and brought the unending cycle to its conclusion.
I thought the same of his goal to save Yuna in regards to the "refuse to let go" theme. He had this existential belief that it could really happen, even though it's never been done. This reveal faces him with the reality that even in saving Yunas life, he will still have to let her go.
I only just realized this but it's crazy how FFX thematically kinda has the strongest claim of being THE Final Fantasy, quite literally. You know, FANTASY, as in, DREAM. Pretty wild, huh, and I it took me so long to realize this lol.
But also one of the weakest claims, because it's so not final it has a direct sequel :S
@@Msoulwing I think @Darksol point is that Tidus is sort of like the final fantasy of this world... or at least for the war against sin.
Fantastic new episode. The discussion on what exactly the Fayth were doing with their "dream" was extremely helpful to me, since I didn't really understand the whole "you are our dream" bit when I played through this section last week. I liked the light joke where you guys compared Tidus to Pinocchio as well. They seem so similar that FFX almost feels like a commentary on Pinocchio at times to me. The twist that the father IS a whale, the idea that "being a real boy" doesn't mean what we think it does, the idea of Zanarkand as a sort of pleasure island with a dark secret. Of course, those are all ideas we see in Campbell and Jung, but something about Tidus's outward foolishness and the Jecht relationship really makes it seem like a real "Pinocchio-core" game.
my favorite yojimbo quote when you offer low money, "You ask for a phoenix but you offer chicken feed"
1:34:25 This is a great question Casen poses regarding Auron's determination to shepherd Yuna and Tidus through the same journey he went through 10 years ago, despite the fact that it changed nothing. It is easy to imagine that someone who has seen the truth of Yevon and Spira would instead immediately dissuade Yuna from the pilgramage and try to find another solution to defeat Sin permanently. But that isn't what Auron wants to do. Why?
Put simply, Auron wants Yuna to come to the conclusion that this cycle of suffering is not worth continuing. It is not just that he WANTS her to decide this on her own, it MUST be of her own volition. If Auron, having seen what he has seen, simply acted as a heretic preaching the truth about Yevon, not only would he lose Yuna's trust (she idolizes her father after all), he would be no different from those who preach the teachings of Yevon to pass prescriptions upon the masses. It would also be a betrayal of Braska, who repeatedly emphasized that Yuna must grow to make her own decisions and asked that she be insulated from the workings of Yevon in her childhood. Practically speaking, he also knows that Yuna and Tidus must see the truth of Spira for themselves, rather than indoctrinating them to it.
There is some significance here as well with Yuna representing the next generation. She is half Al-Bhed and thus is the product of two worlds/cultures (as an aside Seymour is this as well!). By birth, she is uniquely poised to guide Spira in a new direction, as it is often expected that the younger generation will do. Ironically, as Yuna must ultimately decide whether to die for Spira, or live and find another way forward, Tidus (who we could also say is a child of two worlds) now has to decide how to use the little life he has left.
Above all, Auron's overall reticence about the truth of Spira reveals his integrity of character. He demonstrates supreme faith in Yuna and Tidus despite the suffering he has experienced. He is a guide to them but not a commander, a paternal figure who ultimately trusts that they will make the right decision.
You nailed it here. Absolutely spot on analysis on Auron. This contributes to why he’s my all time favorite. Also that he has the resolve to make a pilgrimage twice, defeat sin twice, travel sin to DZ to take care of Tidus all to come back and guide Yuna as well to fulfill his promise to his friends while also liberating Spira. What a stand up dude and amazing character.
51:30 Interesting that Seymour's new form involves...a machina... Yevon showing its true face again.
It took me a long time to totally grasp the intricacies of the plot and the twist of FF 10, and this podcast helped me reach an even deeper understanding. I honestly think it’s one of the best twists in the series.
This might be my favorite episode of your podcasts…ever. Thank you for all this wonderful content, and wow…what an incredible game/story.
About Sending, Auron resists it too when Yuna sends people all the time, even though he's regularly in the same room. They even animate him bracing himself and sometimes he makes grunting sounds.
They talk about this throughout the podcast lol
When Ginnem stops Yuna from sending her, I remember Lulu commenting on how Ginnem isn't even human anymore. I wonder if there is a point at which sending is no longer an option. Like, Ginnem has deteriorated enough and has become angry enough that she is more fiend than human and as a result, can no longer be sent. I mean, otherwise, why would a summoner even need guardians? The summoner could just send fiends away.
I think, like fiends, some unsent can't JUST be sent. They also must be defeated. Which may explain why Yuna isn't allowed to send Seymour after we beat him. If she had tried before, it might not have worked, but after being defeated, they had to stop Yuna from actually doing the sending because it WOULD have worked. Seems to fit, but I could be wrong.
Yeah Ginnem seemed sound in mind to stop her from being sent and was to far gone for it to happen. She knew at that time that she was probably going to have an easier time actually dying that time around when yuna came around then before. Kinda funny to put some thought I to something that was probably never really thought of from the devs lol themselves. Just us as fans putting our 2c on the matter.
I just realized there IS another example in the game of an unsent actively preventing his own sendingthrough sheer willpower. When Yuna tries to send Jyscal Guado, Auron braces himself.
36:30 If you choose the standard Sphere Grid for all the characters, Kimhari's path is designed to be the shortest and will have players have to decide where to continue his path and what skills he'll learn from other characters' paths. I can't remember if by this point in the game his path has concluded or not
I'm fairly sure it will without much/any grinding. Biran and Yenke's starts are based off of Kimahri's though so the fight isn't impossible even if you completely neglected him.
You usually finish it around halfway through the game if you're keeping everyone relatively equally levelled iirc. Very much designed for Kimhari to go wherever you choose after that, I usually end up going down Rikku's path so I can steal to my heart's content.
You will have to leave the centre by mihen highroad where they give away so mamy level 1 key spheres. You can hit -aga spells
Just to put this out there, do remember talk to all characters on the airship both before and after unlocking the final dungeon, multiple times each; they have a lot of interesting lines, *especially* Auron's third line after unlocking the final dungeon summarizes the core of this story so much.
*SPOILER ALERT* would you mind telling me ? I've played the game many times before but not recently so I don't know/remember the lines
@@WowlxX Search on youtube for Reason Why Auron Asked "Are you sure?", someone uploaded that specific dialogue.
@@WowlxX ruclips.net/video/sP6FPb2LBXE/видео.html
@@Karifean Thank you I just did and ok yeah, very interesting indeed :P
I was today years old when I found out the dream Zanarkand was actually a place in Spira. I had always assumed it was part of some other dimension that Sin could somehow travel to by creating a wormhole. Not sure how I came up with that logic when I was ten lmao.
I love that the Biran and Yenke will make sure the Ronso will make Yuna's statue have a horn, which is at least partially a reference to past summoners who have typically been depicted with a horn. Love it, very wholesome
52:00 Spoilers for end of game
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I think Seymour's design resembling an insect/bee is to match Yu Yevon's character design as a bug/spider. Both being parasitic to Spira.
The discussion on Tidus' actual free will or lack thereof is very interesting from a meta standpoint, especially since you guys view it as some sort of parallel to narratology as a whole.
Now, whether the Fayth did intend or not for Jecht and Tidus to be their saviors-meaning both father and son were basically dream-engineered in order to fulfill that task... There certainly are some story bits that support this kind of speculation (first thing that comes to mind is, as someone else pointed out here on the comments, the Bahamut fayth being around when Jecht showed Tidus and us, the audience, his shot).
A counterargument would be the fact that, while revisiting the fayth in their respective temples, we come to learnt that Jecht coming to Spira (and ultimately becoming Sin) was a total coincidence, perhaps something the fayth didn't even think of as possible before it actually happened. That would also explain why it took them 1000 years to start thinking "yo, this stuff about being constantly dreaming is kinda tiresome, don't you all agree lol".
I lean into the theory or headcanon-I still love that the game is vague about it, allowing us to talk about these possibilities 20 years later-that the people in Dream Zanarkand live and die just as anyone in Spira does, which would also include having children, of course.
Also, I'd love for you guys to touch on the moral dilemma of ending Dream Zanarkand's existence since, well, we come to learn that all the people living there are actually sentient and have histories of their own.😅
Wantz and O'aka's sister was also a summoner with them as guardians. They couldn't protect her so they are doing all they can to help Yuna.
Everything from the boss fight with the Sanctuary Keeper, through Rikku's conversation with Yuna, to Tidus listening to Yuna's sphere, to the reprise of the opening campfire scene, and running down the highway in Zanarkand Ruins to the stadium, is the most heart-wrenching sequence in any video game I've played by a mile. Well... until later on in the same game. Such a brilliant final act.
The bit at 1:10:00 ish when you talk about the fact the Fayth created the man who would become Sin and they infiltrated the system… that is such a good point! I’ve never heard that revelation before and it’s sooo good! The layers!!
I love you guys so much. Thank you so much for continuing this in depth analysis of my favorite game of all time. Also, that conversation about letting go was one I really needed to hear. Thank you.
40:27 so glad you guys brought up the Yuna statue with a horn bit, because I always read this as a reference to how the Summoner job class in games like FFIII, FFV and FF Tactics all had horns. Therefore future summoners would see the Yuna Statue and believe that summoners DID have horns, and would wear them to respect the history of the craft. Such a cool detail.
2 thoughts I've never had before that I found interesting.
1. When Yenke and Biran talk about making a statue for Yuna with a grand horn....FF summoners traditionally have garb with horned hats. I know the Ronso do too, but HAD to be an easter egg of some kind.
2. I find it interesting, given the references to sports and religion through out the game, that the 2 people that the dreaming faythe put their hopes on and brought to defeat Sin just HAPPEN to both be star Blitzball players.
Yes on point two. Teaming up with two summoners in Braska and Yuna. The power of Yevon was needed alongside the scepticism of the blitzball players.
@@santinopaone-hoyland I just meant it has more of an impact now, especially after the talk in the series about how sports is equated to religion, both in game and in real world. So naturally the saviors of the world MUST be star sports players. Shows how even the fayth revere them.
Casen is killing it in this game.
Really cool to put the plot and themes of this game into the context that Spira is heavily implied to be pre-shinra version of Gaia from FF7 in FF X-2.
Although I arrive late to the discussion... I just wanted to say how many things in human culture come down to letting go. As a practitioner of Martial Arts I have been told this soooo many times. Throw your ego out of the window is A MUST to be a good martial artists. In practical terms, clinging to your ego makes you stiff, unable to listen to the opponent and, ultimately, this means you get hurt. Just a thought, thank you so much for this amazing podcast!
This is what I like about in-depth discussions, gives me a different perspective on things I either missed or too dumb to understand lol. I have a whole lot more appreciation with the overall theme of FFX.
Yeah, that point you brought up about the yuna staring in the distance thing was one of my "holy shit" moments. Its something that when I noticed it and put it together, it just blew me away. Just one of the many reasons why ff10 is so solid.
Wow, I got a lot further than I ever thought I had as a kid. I bought this game because of this podcast. I'm gonna start it soon
Dream Zanarkand really reminds me of Lovecraft and Old Gods. The idea that we all exist as just a dream of some greater intelligence has always been fascinating to me.
We've all had those dreams that feel so incredibly real, and seem to last for years, even though you only dream for about two hours a night. The thought that the people my mind conjured might have had lives, thoughts, hopes that all ceased to exist when I opened my eyes is both haunting and exciting to me.
28:15 - I always liked that Kimahri has those wings; reminds me of Griever.
I like the options you have with Yojimbou; if you give him more money than he asks for you get extra items and his affinity starts at a higher level, so you have a better chance of getting his Zanmatou attack right away.
His affinity doesn't actually change from that, but I do like that he takes what you say you want his services for very seriously and it affects everything about how he acts in combat. If you say "to defeat the most powerful foes" he will use weaker attacks on regular enemies but have a much higher chance of using Zanmatou on powerful bosses. If you say "to slaughter fiends" it's the opposite, using universally better attacks besides Zanmatou and using it more often on random fiends. And if you say "training as a summoner" much the same but he will do better moves if you give him over half your maximum gil and worse moves if you give him less - as there is no reason to hoard gil if you are really following the summoner's path.
Spira: “We are caught in an endless cycle.”
Dream Zanarkand: “Hold our shoopuf milk.”
Haven't finished the episode yet but wanted to bring this up.
It's my belief that the reason you can name Tidus in the beginning of the game at all, when you can't name anyone else, is actually a really clever foreshadowing that he's a summoning of the fayth akin to the other aeions since they're the only other beings that you're able to name as the player.
Of course we the player think of it in the beginning as "oh this is typical Final Fantasy where I name my character" but when the reveal happens at this point of the game I think you can look back and realize that this might have actually been a foreshadowing.
you guys are amazing. some of the best content on RUclips. Immersive, thoughtful, insightful, and entertaining analysis. please, more than anything else, feel better. I wouldn't be upset if you guys missed a week
I absolutely disagree with the concept of eternal life becoming boring.
The amount of "what ifs" that I consider when writing, could become the basis for as many stories as I want to tell... infinite universes created by changing simple parts of life into fantastical "couldn't really happen, but what if?"
Beyond that, people are individuals, and their relationships create meaningful existences simply by existing and interacting with one another. For people who like friendships and having as many as possible... in a scenario where people lived forever, these sorts of people could live an eternity creating and fostering enjoyable relationships (I'm not one of those particular people.) This sort of framework gives me plenty to write about, because stories aren't always about what happens, but why that means something to the characters involved in the events, and the entire story would change with new characters inserted. If people keep having children for eternity, and expanding into the stars, terraforming new worlds... the possibilities are endless for new things to learn about other people (and the stories about the people who do more things together.)
I don't believe in the theory of the heat death of the universe either. That assumes a finite amount of energy in the universe, and nothing new being added to it, to continue the processes we see today. I don't think science understands enough about reality to make such a conclusion. Just like the expanding of the universe we see today... it doesn't mean the universe will always be expanding... it could be a cycle that results in shrinking at some point, that allows for a fluctuating universe, instead of just expand and collapse into an ending/restart or whatever.
I do not believe that death must be a thing for existence to matter.
None of this even touches on my religious beliefs, which are quite unlike most you'll find in this world... such as a future of mankind living on earth, returned to their proper state of perfection - without death, disease, or anything that causes the pain and suffering we see today, none of which was part of God's design for what He created (it's a temporary condition, from which most of man's philosophers have come to incorrect conclusions from, since it's all they have known, and they don't take the Bible into account as a reliable source of data points to come to a more complete understanding of our reality from.)
I, for one, look forward to living forever. (and not as some disembodied existence that's part of some unknowable supreme entity.)
this Kimari take is awesome, and I feel that Mike's definition of going on a different path (Lulus) and how that rounds out his journey work with ANY choice you make for Kimari. He is meant to go into ANY other characters tree, he doesn't have many spheres in the center. mechanically matching the thematic, which is SO FETCHING COOL!!
The idea that Ultima is at the center of his grid is a cool nod to his inner strength.
This episode kinda triggers my fears and anxiety a bit. I've always had a problem with acceptance and letting go.
Same
For Seymour and not being sent: I think its a case of the writers wanting him to be a compelling threat but they don't want him to be always hounding the heroes. So they have him be beaten but not Sent, but it causes some issues that I think they didn't think of. Like it's one thing if Yuna just decides not to, it's another to just have them not do it.
It's a problem but I don't super hold it against them, because in a way, Seymours refusal to die represents part of the cycle of death and how hard it is to break it. He's been fought 3 times as of them reaching Zanarkand, and I think that eas intentional.
Been following you guys for 5 years now. 1 of my FAVORITE channels. GOAT - 🐐
Thank you for your videos.
This podcast will last forever.
My father’s come to an age where we all have to mentally prepare to let him go. Somehow, this conversation inspired me to accept that I need to begin turning those gears in my mind that I refuse to let turn. Still brought the tears though.
Also fun fact that I liked: Kimhari's solo boss fight scales their difficulty based on his overall level. So it best to avoid using him so they are weak, and you can use Lancet (I think that's how it's spelt) to get Ronso Rage abilities from them.
Also, on the mountain being sacred: I think it makes sense. It's the last barrier to Zanarkand, and crossing it is not easy. If the Church of Yevon wanted to make the pilgrimage this holy path, bringing in the people who naturally live there helps build that idea. They construct a fake sense of sacredness using just naturally occurring things, and I think that's a really neat aspect of the mountain.
And I love the call back to older games with the whole "Summoner with horns".
i resonated much with this episode of the podcast, especially how death is inescapable yet as we find reasons and beauty in life, it makes everything worthwhile. It’s always a pleasure to listen to you two as well as read the comments of everyone. Thanks!
After playing through the game again, I got the sense that when Bahamut was shown interacting with Tidus, it was more of a symbolic way to show that "someone" was controlling what happens rather than Tidus seeing him. Anytime Tidus would veer from the plan, someone had to interject.
I hope next episode they cover the bit where Seymorbius says: "It's morbin' time".
I love the small Kimahri redemption story arc in the midsts of the bigger overall story. It’s kind of emotional really.
Words can't describe how grateful I am for this podcast. Ty for the new episode!
Hats off, lads. This is one of the best episodes I've seen on this channel.
If I lived a billion years, I could just redo everything I had already done with the same joy as the first time. Kind of like replaying an RPG from 20 years ago and experiencing it like the first time, since I don't remember any of the story. I don't think you'd get bored with eternity, because all your memories would not be eternal.
Episode 12 already. How time flies. Still my favourite day of the week because of this analysis.
Having this podcast and playing this game for the very 1st time is pretty great
I love how you guys are going into the visual design detail as well. so much stuff I didn't know in the symbolism with a lot of things
This easily became my favorite podcast of all time, to the point that you guys got me to finally play and finish FFX (coming from the old PSX FFs, I was always repelled by this one).
The way you analyze games is, I think, the proper way to go, so far from the common cynical approach of nitpicking everything and trying to tear the thing apart instead of finding good in it, even in its flaws. This is such as breath of fresh air!!!
Wanted to comment on the inmortality discussion that was some prevalent on this episode (loved it!), particularly on what Casen said about the theosis or "becoming one with God". I'm not sure but I think there's a small detail that points more to what we catholics actually believe, which is we won't "kill our ego" or our "will" and surrender it to God, but rather align it to God's Will, wich is the desirable thing to do (although hard) in the end. We believe we are made for God, and only in aligning our will to his we can be truly happy... it's not that we "dissappear" in the buddhist sense if and when we achieve this, quite to the contrary, we become even more ourselves as we realize our potential. As Saint Augustine wrote: "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You".
So yeah, it's not that we believe the eternal life is just a continuation of this one, in this state (that would be Hell, as Mike pointed), but something rather different, that we only "see" in small and fleeting moments during our time here.
Anyway, amazing stuff, really enjoying all your episodes! Please keep them coming!
Every wow player has a existential crysis after this podcast
I don't have any insightful comments to add to today's discussion, I just wanted to chime in because in all the years I've been watching I haven't contributed. I don't have the financial opportunity to support the Patreon right now, but I have been watching since the early DPG days and I think the new podcast format you've been doing for a while now is really excellent content.
Unrelated, but I remember when I first hit this reveal for the first time I was kind of reminded of Link's Awakening (sky whale, world of dreams, etc.). I love the role reversal this put on the cast and how Yuna catches on to him pretty quickly - a really nice touch on how far their relationship has come.
Kimahri is pretty much always a counter culture guy. If you pay attention he always is the first to side with tidus and wakka is always last. Like in Bevelle when he breaks open the door to the fayth. Kinda gives me a whole new appreciation of Kimahri.
Also, in terms of Gaggazettes importance. In ancient Jerusalem, the key to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was given to a Muslim family. This is because the Church is used by several different Christian denominations. The Church was built on the site of Jesus's Tomb, or at least where they believed it was. The family has held the key for centuries and they consistently fight with current non-Christian government to keep the Church open on Easter. Theyre devoted the their culture, as natives to Jerusalem and not any government or religion. Similarly the Ronso culture is to protect the Holy Tomb/Place of Worship of Zanarkand (the temple or the Blitzball stadium) and the Zanarkand Fayth (kinda a tomb), regardless of their religion.
Yuna getting a statue with a horn on the forehead is a call back to the classical final fantasy summoner class where a forehead horn was a standard part of the class's costume. It's a nice little reference.
My Goodness this PodCast of this game is/was amazing. I look at FF10 in a completely different way! What incredible content!
Some more insight from FFX-2: Kimahri has become the elder of the Ronso. It's unclear if that is meant to be literal, like he's the oldest living Ronso left, or if he's just the Ronso that is the strongest or most notable. His main problem is dealing with a faction of younger Ronso that want to go to war with the Guado, to kill them all as revenge for the dead Ronso. This can go several ways because of how X-2's narrative is structured, but you can get a statue to Yuna built, though I can't remember off hand if it has a great horn or not.
Take care of yourselves, guys. That was a lot of coughing this episode. Don't push yourselves.
33:00 I think it's meant that Kimahri wouldn't accept defeat DURING the fight (i.e. kept getting back up) and that is why Biran broke his horn.
I bet there are so many things like this that are just translated in such a way which hides the actual meaning.
This could easily be true.
Tidus is one of many of the fayth ensconced in that wall, as is Jecht.
They were real at one point. He has his own thoughts, however there is influence from others.
I do think Jecht ending up in Spira in the first place was a coincidence. If you redo the Kilika trials and talk to the Ifrit fayth after the final Bevelle scenes he talks a bit about Jecht ending up in Spira and becoming Sin and the conversation implies to me that it just happened to go as it did outside of anyone's grand designs. It's only after that that multiple different parties - the fayth, Jecht, Auron - all had partly intersecting things they wanted to do and achieve and worked around and with what the other(s) did, more taking advantage of opportunities presenting themselves than having a big plan to be following from the start. With that being said I also don't think Jecht and Tidus' relationship was engineered by the fayth, similarly having it be them running with an opportunity as it presented itself after 1000 years rather than setting it up that way.
Worth noting that all the fayth (and a bunch of NPCs for that matter) add a good bit more worldbuilding if you talk to them near the end of the story. Just be mindful of Dark Valefor and Shiva in this version of the game.
I’d agree that the Fayth engineering Tidas’ enmity for his father may be taking it too far but the scene where Jecht showed the Jecht shot to Tidas as a boy had Bahamut already showing an interest in them before Jecht was ‘accidentally’ lost at sea so I take that as a strong indication that there was no accident in that happening.
I like how the idea of a horn on yunas statue can be connected to the summoners in final fantasy tactics and the summoners in 9. Idk if any other have that design/concept
FFIII, FFV, FFXI, and FFVI. Basically, if Summoner is a job that unit can change into, then it has the horn.
(Very perceptive of you to pick up on this, by the way. Good work.)
@@matthewlandoll7812 all FFs I have yet to play 😭 . But thank u. I've finished 1 & 7-15 (except the mmos) . Still got some back tracking to do
The last bit of this episode reminded me of Outer Wilds, such a fantastic game.
Crazy, over a year later now Outer Wilds is on deck for them in a few weeks here. I'm playing now it's a lotta fun
Great work as always! few thoughts 1) in FF-X2 there is a statue of Yuna with a grand horn on her head so that is kind of funny if you google it. 2) I always assumed what Seymour fuses into was something he commanded or created like how the Guado enemies at home conjure or control fiends 3) if you look closely every Fayth statue is face down wonder what that could be or part of the sleeping/dreaming theme
In a strange way, old zanarkand is almost affirming Seymour’s belief that the only way to a complete lack of suffering is to no longer live. However, the only real difference is that Seymour wants to cut everything short of living it’s full course. Zanarkands life course, as a whole, was done 1000 years ago
I cant thank you guys enough for making all this content about my favorite game of all time. I love the in depth analysis! Don't forget to talk about Remiem Temple at some point.
Fun fact: in the original version of FFX’s story, the big twist was that Tidus was dead the whole time. He was killed when Sin attacked Zanarkand and became a wondering spirit for 1000 years before he found Besaid. But the writers were worried that this would be too similar to The Sixth Sence, which came out during the making of this game. So it was changed where Auron was the one who was dead the whole time.
I'm glad it was changed, honestly. Given how intricately his very existence ties into Sin and the pilgrimage, the final version works a lot better in delivering the unique story X came to be.
@@Y-two-K me too. And I liked all of the hints that Auron was an unsent. It made replaying the game and going through the story more interesting.
FFX, shrooms, dyson spheres, the moral implications of immortality... what a ride. I really enjoyed this one. Thanks guys.
Michael’s optional answer on 20:17 through me off so much, I had a really good belly laugh. I thought he would say something like brothers of a tribe or clan, but instead brothers in Christ.🤣
Seymour seems to get the looks for his forms based on how many souls he's consumed. We see clearly with Seymour Natus that he absorbs the pyrflies from Kinoc's body and the others, meanwhile with Seymour Flux he had literally just murdered a ton of Ronso.
I think he used their pyrflies to construct his Seymour Flux state. It even uses a move called Spear of Atrophy, spears being associated with the Ronso through Kimahri.
In his final form, he's using the souls of the dead floating around Sin's body, using Sin's destruction to gather power for himself.
the whole thing about not letting go of zanarkand really reminds me of how new vegas can be seen as telling fans to let go of the fallout series and move on.
we are seeing this so much with alot of companies. people still clinging on to their memories of the past when what they love has clearly changed. bioware is the most recent example no one will let it go.
I think that a lot of people who are upset about their game or movie franchises changing is that new staff are coming in and killing the franchise as it had existed, changing it (while benefiting from it having a built-in fanbase from the franchise as it previously existed), and then telling people to stop clinging to their memories of the past, because it's dead and gone. It would be like if some dude killed your mom, and then told you to stop crying about it because she's gone, just let her go and move on with your life, and definitely don't be angry at him for killing her.
Even though they should eventually move on with their lives, people still have a right to be upset when something good is taken from them.
I really liked FFX-2's gameplay, but that was it. They murdered the story.
Obviously a bit late but I'm not sure I agree with the whole "fayth manufactured Jecht and Tidus to stop Yu Yevon" theory brought up. It's a bit unhelpful to just try and pull down a theory but I just don't personally think it lines up with the messaging and thematics of the game, despite still being plausible given what we know lore wise.
For a start it makes Jecht and Tidus' characters and influence feel predetermined. If the fayth dreamt them in such a way where they would be perfect in defying Yu Yevon, it limits the ability of the story to really deem their actions and choices as entirely their own. In particular this would be both of their choices to sacrifice themselves. I think this runs contrary to the anti-control and determinism messaging of the game. The entire journey of the game is about breaking from a linear spiral, about breaking free from controlling forces that limit and confine people into not wanting or desiring more. I think the fayth having pre ordained the lives of Tidus and Jecht takes away from that theme.
Secondly I just think the "Tidus wanting to kill Jecht" argument doesn't really align with a lot of the source material. Bahamut is never really shown taking an active presence in dream Zanarkand or Tidus/Jecht's relationship, and serves more as an observer. This is just speculation on my part, but I believe all the fayth are continually watching over this dream Zanarkand too, as why would they conjure up this dream if they themselves could not enjoy or perceive it? And I also don't think there's much to indicate that Tidus ever wanted to kill Jecht out of hatred or jealousy. I understand and to an extent agree with the comments around the Oedipus complex with Tidus, but I'd argue that manifested more in Tidus resenting his father rather than outright wanting to kill him (or even just harm in general). Tidus is not a character who really explicitly wishes death on anyone, and as we see throughout the whole game, is running away from the fact that Jecht actually wants Tidus to kill him.
Maybe it's just a overall personal thing, but I just think the fayth/bahamut wanting Tidus to kill Jecht sort of warps the narrative and general thematic vibe of the game towards something darker that I don't personally think was intended. I think Jecht was plucked from Dream Zanarkand because he was the one who they saw as most capable of breaking the cycle, not that he was raised to be this role, and Tidus' abduction by Jecht and Auron was their choice and part of their plan, not anything the fayth created.
Again it's kind of lame to just make a comment trying to rain on the parade of the theories brought up here, but personally it was just something I heavily disagreed with while listening (which is obviously a good thing it's fun to be mentally contested on my view of the game).
I've loved watching you guys go through this. If it helps, I've noticed a few things;
1. Seymour's ability to absorb people (once they are killed and made into pyreflies) is important. It's possible Seymour Flux absorbed the pyreflies (souls) of all the Ronso he killed - his design of the large glowing orb he's sort of fused with (and the cage that surrounds it) might represent his domination over them. He gets progressively bigger (stronger) when he absorbs more pyreflies - this is elaborated on in FFX2, but is made obvious in the gameplay - first when he kills a small handful of soldiers to become Seymour Natus, then he kills many many Ronso to become Seymour Flux, and finally inside Sin, he's able to absorb an incredible amount of souls as Sin rampages around, becoming his final form. It's also possible he can absorb fiends once killed, as they are essentially also pyreflies, explaining why he gets so massive inside Sin, which is infested with fiends.
2. The water spiral at the top of Gagazet with the fayth could be harkening back to the water pillars you can see in the Farplane, implying summoners (perhaps even in other worlds) are currently summoning pyreflies (aeons) from the Farplane itself.
3. This is a bit of a throwback, but the dichotomy of Jecht's attitude is very consistent with real-life abusers, who present a certain face to the world while privately expressing a very different self. It's possible Jecht only truly regretted his abusive attitudes towards Tidus once we was ripped into Spira, and had a new perspective to reflect. In a way, it's possible Jecht wants Tidus to kill him as a way of 'making up' for those years of abuse, and thereby freeing both of them.
45:37 Actually about this point, I think it has something to do with Tidus conversation with Rikku that clued Seymour in to realize that Tidus is a "son of Jecht." It was after Rikku see the faith and determination in Tidus that she said he sounded like a leader there to which Tidus replied he is a "star of Zanarkand Abes."
1:26:17 Wow I never thought we'd get an Eternal Darkness reference in this podcast series of FFX haha damn I tried not to remember that pillar scene! Great game tho.
Great episode once again! I think back when I played FFX I understood about 80% of the Fayth/Dream/Zanarkand logic, but I recall some video or stream discussion you did years ago (back when your opinions quite differed) helped clarify it for me that "summon" was the biggest keyword to remember. It's a great existential twist, maybe not quite on the level of FF7's but it still does the job of sticking our hero with a tough, humbling new outlook on himself and the journey.
No discussion of the difficulty spike at Seymour Flux? That fight almost ruined my playthrough first time. Only way I got by was prestocking overdrives for all party members and aeons and unloading. I died so many times ...
When i was a kid i got stuck on this fight for so long that i ended up replaying the whole game and doing things more efficiently so i could crush seymour
I also redid the game completely from scratch and switched to the pro spheregrid, because I couldn't handle that fight
@@sh1yo7 right?! Thanks for the validation.
Whew this one was heavy. First listen through of your guys’s content. Thank you for sharing your ideas towards the end of the video, it’s really made me start to think a lot.
If I'm not mistaken, Tidus may have referred to himself as the star player of the zanarkand abes during the cutscene with Rikku.
Now that would be a big inference for Seymour to make, but the link is there.
Another excellent video, maybe the best one yet! You are the dream. Mind blown!!
man. Now whenever i get a game over, i would inevitably think about how Tidus disappointed the entire population of the dreaming Zanarkand.
I love that you guys mentioned Eternal Darkness, because that was exactly where my brain went with the people in the wall. Which brings me to another thought, man it sure would be really cool to see an Analysis of Eternal Darkness, so many people have no idea what that game is and how interesting of an installment it was in the Survival Horror genre. People still rave about RE4 but ED was where it was really at for me.
The discussion towards the end of this episode was fantastic. I know it would be a huge commitment, but y’all should really play ff14 if you want to see another game tackling a these themes.
Love listening to you guys, thanks for doing these. I hope you guys go check out Yemiem Temple in the Calm Lands! I think it is worth taking a look at.
To add to your points on Kimahri, it is represented in the gameplay that he is learning from his travels throughout Spira by using Lancet. This ability allows him to steal abilities from his enemies, and using a few of them at certain points in the game can cause Kimahri to seem extra powerful.
Minor spoilers for FFX-2, but depending on what side quests you do, the Ronso will in fact keep their promise and present a Yuna statue with a horn
The kid was more like his conscious. We could see him so we could see how they would nudge Tidus the right way. But Tidus never saw him. Just always had this feeling when the kid spoke to him. It wasn't words he heard. But a feeling of what to say or how to act.
The end of this episode of the podcast was like the opening scene of Super Troopers.
You guys were getting deep very interesting philosophies.