Final Fantasy 8 Analysis (Ep.4) | State Of The Arc Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- In this episode, we analyze disc 3 of Final Fantasy 8, which begins with Squall waking up in his room at Balamb Garden and realizing Rinoa has fallen into a coma. As Edea unveils that a sorceress from the future is behind all the chaos that's been happening, Squall is forced to evaluate his feelings, his emotional trauma, and whether he wants to continue leading the Garden--all while his desperation to save Rinoa boils over.
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. Extra Discussion On The End Of Disk 2 (0:25)
3. Corrections About What Happened To NORG (5:34)
4. Addressing Squall's "On-The-Dime" Change In Disk 3 (7:56)
5. Laguna's Influence On Seifer (Laguna Dream Sequence #4) (17:40)
6. FF8's Model For Time, Fate, And Time Travel (31:17)
7. The White SeeD Ship (35:01)
8. Squall Abandons His Post (37:51)
9. The Reason Cid Pushed Squall So Hard (46:14)
10. Entering Esthar (49:01)
11. Laguna Flashback #5 (55:30)
12. Meeting Odine And The Lunar Gate (57:52)
13. The Lunatic Pandora (1:02:34)
14. The Lunar Base (1:12:34)
15. The Lunar Cry (1:32:48)
16. Rinoa Stranded In Space--Ellone Tries To Send Squall Back In Time To Save Her (1:38:25)
17. Discussion/Debate On Squall's Reversal Of Temperament And Romantic Scene With Rinoa (1:45:14)
18. Laguna Is The President Of Esthar? (2:22:27)
19. Adel's Gender (2:26:20)
20. Quick/Preliminary Summary Of Time Compression As We Wrap Up (2:30:28)
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Игры
You can look forward to the final episode of this series on Monday!
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. Extra Discussion On The End Of Disk 2 (0:25)
3. Corrections About What Happened To NORG (5:34)
4. Addressing Squall's "On-The-Dime" Change In Disk 3 (7:56)
5. Laguna's Influence On Seifer (Laguna Dream Sequence #4) (17:40)
6. FF8's Model For Time, Fate, And Time Travel (31:17)
7. The White SeeD Ship (35:01)
8. Squall Abandons His Post (37:51)
9. The Reason Cid Pushed Squall So Hard (46:14)
10. Entering Esthar (49:01)
11. Laguna Flashback #5 (55:30)
12. Meeting Odine And The Lunar Gate (57:52)
13. The Lunatic Pandora (1:02:34)
14. The Lunar Base (1:12:34)
15. The Lunar Cry (1:32:48)
16. Rinoa Stranded In Space--Ellone Tries To Send Squall Back In Time To Save Her (1:38:25)
17. Discussion/Debate On Squall's Reversal Of Temperament And Romantic Scene With Rinoa (1:45:14)
18. Laguna Is The President Of Esthar? (2:22:27)
19. Adel's Gender (2:26:20)
20. Quick/Preliminary Summary Of Time Compression As We Wrap Up (2:30:28)
Oh word. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the Rinoa = ultimecia theory. There's alot of evidence to unpack. Im aware that the dev's and the director have gone on record and stated that the theory has no water, but somebody at Square Enix wants it to be true. It's gotten to where the theory is hinted at and bleeds into other Enix games. Im a believer. Personally, it elevates the game for me. It'll be interesting to get your take on it Mike.
@@nathanchaffin6380 I prefer the games Happy Ending with the ending showing Squall and Rinoa Together. Rinoa = Ultimecia is a negative Ending and we already had Julia Rinoa's mum and Raine Squalls mum Die. The game itself has alot of suffering throughout and a Rinoa = Ultimecia theory end has a endless loop of suffering.
@@watchthisspace2576 "Rinoa...... Even If You End Up As The World's Enemy, I'll... I'll Be Your Knight"
@@nathanchaffin6380 That's in regards to Rinoa falling under Ultimecia's control again not that she IS Ultimecia. ''If I fall under Ultimecia's control again...'' Squall: ''That's enough! I'll never do anything like that. The sorceress I'm after is not you, Rinoa.''' A Knight in shining armor to save the princess from Ultimecia.
@@watchthisspace2576 I won't try to plee my case. The best part about this games ending is that its left ambiguous. You can interpret it however you like. But I will point one thing out. And leave you with this information.
Griever (Squall's Lion) appears as Ultimecia's GF, almost like "..a knight in shining armor."
Holy shit the Seifer victory pose being the same as Laguna in the movie is NUTS. I never noticed that. It really somehow makes Seifer's character feel so much stronger.
If laguna has Kiros and ward. Seifer have fujin and raijin.
The part of the discussion about Seifer being inspired by Laguna's movie, right down to his battle stance and victory pose absolutely blew my mind. Been playing this game practically since it came out and never picked up on that. Wow
Same! Lovin' FF8 soo much! It's so deep
Amazing… me either! Also it’s so enjoyable to see other people being fascinated by the story.
I find even more funny that Laguna interpreted the Sorceress's Knight, armed with a gunblade, and then his son, simply by chance, became Rinoa's (a sorceress) knight, armed with a gunblade.
What were the odds?
1000% agree. I never put that together.
That Seifer/Laguna victory pose is a really nice subtle storytelling touch, doesn't matter if you miss it but is a deeper layer for those who did notice it.
I really loved how the game never directly tells you that Squall is the son of Laguna and Raine. It's something that you have to piece out from all the hints, the last of which is revealed in the ending, when you see that Laguna and Raine got married. The hints given by Kiros and Ward on the Ragnarok are clear giveaways, but the ending closes the loop. It gives more perspective as to why Squall was particularly affected by Ellone's departure from the orphanage. He's quite possibly the only child there that could legitimately consider Ellone as his sister, because she actually is Squall's adoptive sister (in the sense that Raine adopted her and later had Squall with Laguna).
Once you realize that Laguna and Raine married, this puzzle can be pieced out. We know Laguna left Winhill to become a journalist at some point, but why is it that Ellone was put in an orphanage in the first place if it wasn't because Raine died? She wasn't put in an orphanage alone; it's clear that she went there with Squall. This is why Squall was devastated when Ellone left the orphanage; he was truly alone at this point. This is also what sets in his tendency to isolate himself because he's been used to seeing the people who should be expected to care for and love him abandon him one after the other. He's too young to understand why this is happening, but the trauma is there and with lasting repercussions.
All in all, that FF8 manages to say so much without blurting it out is one of the more endearing aspects of its storytelling and really contrasts how JRPGs tend to be so exposition-heavy at times.
Oh, and it's worth mentioning that Laguna, Raine, and Squall all have names with a water motif, as if we needed extra hints to the connections between the three.
Well said!
Very well said. The ending scene where Laguna puts the ring on Raine brings me nearly to tears every time I watch the FMV over that Eyes On Me song (which Rinoa's mother wrote). It's the scene that confirmed my suspicion from the Kiros/Ward Ragnarok hints, in the most beautiful way - Laguna reminiscing about his love while visiting Raine's grave. Everything being shown without a single spoken word in the ending, in beautiful CG, closing a case that wasn't even explicitly told thru the storyline. So damn rewarding.
Also Laguna has Squalls Card, just as Zells 'mother' has his, Rinoas father has hers. Which leaves to reason that Zeifer might be Cids son and the woman in FH Irvines mother
I really enjoy this too. It's really satisfying how the game rewards paying attention to subtle clues like these. My main issue is that Laguna basically abandoned his search for Ellone once he became the President of Esthar. As the president of the most powerful nation on earth, even as a figurehead with little power, was there really nothing he could do to look for the child he so adored? I wish the game would even lean a little further into Laguna's character flaw here by either saying yes he really did give up on Ellone because he'd found a new comfortable life and he still had his buddies, or no he still tried to find Ellone but he was trapped in Esthar as a powerless 'president' in name only who was essentially a prisoner in luxurious surroundings. The way Laguna seems reluctant to embrace Squall once they finally meet suggests that the first option is closer to his true character, but I think the second option would be interesting too and would flesh out the politics of Esthar.
The more I see these videos, the more I appreciate ff8 as well as its qualities and shortcomings.
Same
It kind of brings to light that all of its shortcomings are just… Japanese culture and the nature of jrpgs and anime tropes.
This is an amazing series. really love the in-depth discussion trying to see the story on all sides. Very open. Little edits added a lot to keep it engaging. Really loved it, can't wait to see more!
Indeed. I love that there are people out there in the world like me, who wants to talk about a FF game for hours and hours.
@@AndreJr9 even just having qn open conversation that doesn paint the game as "all bad" or "all good" is so much more entertaining qnd enlightening. These guys are always great for indepth discussions
Thank you guys! The discussion is such a joy to listen to. I really appreciate the hard work!
My thoughts from this episode:
- Squall's defense mechanism of preferring to be thought of as a jerk immediately reminded me of 10 Things I Hate About You: Kat Stratford's stated strategy of disappointing people immediately to prevent them developing inflated expectations of you.
- While it makes a lot of sense that Cid is deliberately pushing for Squall to become a great leader and warrior, as part of a plan inspired by Edea's encounter with future Squall back at the orphanage, I'm not sold on the idea of Edea knowing any more than what Squall told her during their encounter. Just because she absorbed Ultimecia's powers (providing the link that ultimately allowed Ultimecia to possess her across time) doesn't mean she absorbed her knowledge. I take it as more likely that all she knows about Ultimecia is what she learned from being possessed by her, meaning she doesn't know anything that happened after Time Compression was initiated, particularly including who went to face Ultimecia.
- Squall's lack of reaction to meeting Ellone for the first time after discovering that she was "Sis" makes sense to me: firstly, it's not their reunion since he's met and talked to her more than once since the game started; secondly, he's operating in crisis mode: he's focusing on one thing at a time, and right now the important thing is Rinoa, not reminiscing over old times with his adopted sister.
- Mission control being ready to talk down the Ragnarok also makes sense to me. The sky may be falling, and Sorceress Adel may be returning to the world, but none of that is something mission control can do anything about. But talking down a lost spaceship? That's their job! That's something they can do that will be helpful and useful, and that they can focus on rather than worrying about things outside their control that they're not responsible for.
I feel that same way about all these points, too.
Also I wonder if voice acting would have made a difference to how Mike and Casen view Squall and Ellone's lunar reunion, as it were.
Like here I think it depends on interpretation and presumption a lot more because we have no voice acting to guide us on how Squall and Ellone feel. So I can absolutely imagine them having a very believable heart to heart appropriate to the situation they're both currently in (aboard a spaceship) and in consideration of recent and past events.
When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's LUNAR CRY.
This made me laugh harder than I really should admit.
Lmfao why is this comedic genius
I kinda wanna replay FFVIII just due to this slew of podcasts!
Wait for the remake! Don't be surprised if the announcement comes out anytime this year.
I did some digging into what might be considered the definitive way to play FFVIII in the current year. Remaster on any platform suffers from some interesting and upsetting quirks. In two big ways, the Remaster is inferior to every other version of the game. Original Steam version is cheaper and currently has a WIP mod available that AI upscales the backgrounds (results are, for the most part, very good). I've heard the Remaster has a similar mod in the works, but I've not been able to find a page on it anywhere. My gut says the best way to go is the original Playstation version running on the PS3 for the cleanest signal possible.
same
I might die before the remake appears.
I am due to this podcasts
I think maybe a better way to explain what Casen is trying to say during the Rinoa space scene is that prior to them being in the ship, Squall couldn’t stand being without her. He tried to time travel multiple times. He literally dove into space not knowing whether or not they’d live. But the instant they’re on Ragnarok he can’t even be bothered to hug. And he’s confused why they would. It just doesn’t make sense lol
Man, I can't get over how much I'm enjoying the discussion on this game. I'm gonna have to go back and replay it again. Thanks for the great content!
I love listening to these again to see if you've added more info : )
A couple things worth noting:
1. We have seen Squall "explode" before when overwhelmed by feelings - in disc one, when Seifer is announced dead, Squall loses it, shouts at the rest of the squad and then storms off. The thought of death and being scared by it is really relatable and it really fits the character and his age. Existencial crisis, am I right?
2. At the very beginning of the game, if you check the library section in your PC, you can see that Seifer either has borrowed Laguna's movie, or has requested it (can't really recall which one). I always thought it was a cool hint.
Okay about number 2 of your comment, that is cool as all hell. Never seen that before.
Please keep this kind of content coming. They're incredibly entertaining and unique. To know that there are people out there that cares about the same stuff I do to that extent is an amazing feeling.
I played the FF8 at the American launch. But I am Brazilian and at the time I understood very little of the English language. So I was totally lost in the history at the time. Years later I played again with a better understanding of the language and even so there were points that I didn't understand or didn't make sense.
This podcast helped me to better understand the motivation of the characters and some points that I did not understand.
Thanks!
Hey boys. Just one thing I want to bring up about squalls change of feelings in regards to rinoa.
You guys have spoken in the past about them being immature teenage soldiers.
I'm not sure about you, but when I was a 17 year old with abandonment issues I feel head over heels for the first girl that gave me attention, I feel like it goes a long way to explains squalls flip in character.
Yeah, having no experience with romance means he's got no concept of moderation, no idea where the middle ground lies - nothing to make him think about putting the brakes on. So, of course he goes head-over-heels when he does finallly fall.
I 100% knew someone who acted exactly like Squall, including the flip flopping emotions. It was exhausting and we are no longer friends, but Squall is an absolutely accurate portrayal of them.
I knew this person for over 5 years and they still acted that way. They barely changed. Squall is realistic.
Before you guys record the final podcast, I have to acknowledge some of the sickest things Uematsu has ever done for FF fans, toward the end of FF8. Since all spoilers are on the table.
1. Before FF7, every FF game had this classic battle-theme bass-line for normal fights. FF7 moved on from this obviously, but at the end of FF7, there’s this veeeery slight hint of that bassline in “Birth of a God”, barely audible and I doubt most players noticed. FF8 also abstained from the classic bassline, and it might’ve seemed like it’d never return to the series. It’s not until the very final battle that….at 100 seconds into “The Extreme”, it returns to full prominence sounding better than ever. If you were an OG Final Fantasy veteran in the 90s (I wasn’t), I have to imagine hearing this was orgasmic, especially if you didn’t hear it since FF6 in 1994.
2. Once the credits roll, Uematsu tosses out the “Main FF Theme” in full orchestra for the first time in an OST. Once again, any FF fan in the 90s must’ve gotten serious goosebumps hearing this after such a beautiful FMV sequence, being juxtaposed with a feel-good party of course.
3. Unless you die, FF8 never really uses the Prelude theme, a series staple. Even the Game Over version is this kinda minor key (iirc) version that doesn’t really fill the craving. Of course, Uematsu saves this treat for the very last post-credits scene. Playing its slow, romantic scales underneath the main strings/winds/brass. Right as Squall and Rinoa share their first kiss and the camera tracks out to the Garden under the moon. This ALWAYS hits me hard.
I hope they list their favorite tracks from the game in the next podcast!
Thanks for having a detailed discussion about my favourite Final Fantasy
I never noticed those similarities between Seifer and Laguna. This is so awesome.
Another hint that Laguna is Squall's dad is that he holds the Squall Card in Triple Triad.
I believe Ultimecia's final form is basically Hyne's body without his skin, compounded in Ultimecia's form. It is basically skinless with muscle tendons and veins showing, with no face. Just like how in the legend it was said he cast off his skin and gave it to humanity as the rest of him became the sorceresses.
Oh I like this theory a lot. I'd never considered that before.
I have a theory regarding why Esthar ground control might suddenly pick up the Ragnarok. I don't think it has to do with the fact that they were looking specifically for that signal. Rather, it has to do with how spacecraft (and aircraft) manage TTC (telemetry, tracking, and command). All such vehicles are equipped with devices called transponders, which communicate on standard radio frequency bands. The radio frequency spectrum is usually subdivided into bands that are used for specific purposes and space telecommunication is one such field of use for radio bands.
Esthar probably retained its radio infrastructure in the 17 years that followed the Sorceress War, which they likely kept tabs on to ensure that Adel remained imprisoned. As long as the ground stations kept monitoring interference, there was no impending return of Adel. So when Adel is freed and Lunatic Pandora provokes a Lunar Cry over Tear's Point, the interference dies and all of a sudden they pick up transponder signals being issued over their bands they are monitoring. Of course, the Ragnarok was in a derelict state before Squall and Rinoa board, so the transponder was probably off at that time. It's only when Squall and Rinoa make it to the cockpit and try to activate the ship's systems that the transponder goes online, to the great surprise of Esthar ground control, who likely weren't expecting to get a blip from the Ragnarok's transponder after 17 years.
Nice theory. I don't know how the technology works but it sounds convincing to a layman like me.
@@Lunariant think of it like a submarine's sonar, except that instead of having a single craft issue a sound pulse and using the Doppler effect to get information from the echo of the pulse, you instead have every single transponder kind of do the same thing over a standard set of radio frequencies.
The same transponders also enable collision avoidance systems for aircraft and spacecraft, which is why you want them running on well-known frequencies.
@@marcusmajarra I understood virtually none of that but I'll take your word for it!
@@Lunariant ok, let me try and rephrase this in a more accessible way. Transponders are what enable aircraft and spacecraft to play Marco Polo with one another and with ground control. And they want to do this all the time as this also helps them avoid accidental collisions
@@marcusmajarra I was happy to just accept what you said, but I'm grateful for the education!
I never thought it was inappropriately sudden that Squall started to change about Rinoa’s life. It’s simply him realizing he’s taken her for granted especially once she appears to be lost. If anyone’s ever felt ‘whatever’ about a relationship they're in, and at some point got suddenly scared he/she was mad at you or about to leave you, your feelings may flip drastically too. I'm sure it'd be even more extreme if they were in danger. Squall’s introverted, but him silently looking at Rinoa lying down is a fair tell.
Ultimecia is the real protagonist and fate is the real antagonist.
- Hears that some dude is going to kill her. Says "F that, I'll compress time."
- Uses her fun machine to possess Edea and someone tries to attack her fun new past body. WTF?
- Finds out this dude is one of these seeds she's heard of. Says, "I'll heal this guy," so he can be interrogated. Figures maybe that'll help her find this legendary seed.
- Succeeds in her Adel plan and Squall and co will die, but the explosion knocks the Ragnarok right to them!
- Succeeds in partially compressing time which happens to be the exact action that allows the legendary seed to kill her.
I haven’t watched this just yet, but I wanted y’all to know I turned on notifications for this channel. Which is something I’ve yet to do for any channel previously. After listening to the last 3 episodes I keep thinking about this and couldn’t wait for more. So here I go to watch it! :)
This was excellent. At first I thought Mike was too analytical to truly understand the complexity of Squall’s character but he truly proved me wrong here. He did a fantastic job explaining Squall’s trauma and how it affects the way he operates, and navigates through life. Also I believe the emotion he is trying to explain at 2:13:56 is shock. In my experience, that’s exactly what happens when you go into shock.
It may not be my favorite FF game, but it definitely moved up in the ranks thanks to your analysis.
Very well done, guys. Can’t wait for the next In-Depth Analysis.
You absolutely have to do more of these in-depth story analysis. Xenogears comes to mind. Or any other game. Just do more of these. You're my favorite channel right now. Keep it up!
Xenogears, in the way they dissected FFVIII, would be at least twice as long. That 2nd disc isn't an exposition dump, it's a Texas sized exposition landfill.
@@christopheranzovinio5893 Indeed. But if it were to be done, I would bet my pretty penny on these guys. I noticed the love towards Xenogears in several videos.
Such a discussion would be among those things in life you want to witness before you die.
So get those garbage man uniforms ready - a landfill has to be cleaned up, flattened (or whatever one does with landfills).
@@DezorianGuy In that case, get the world's marshmallows ready. We have a dumpster fire of epic proportions to go to!
It would be really cool to learn about the inspiration and production troubles - the worldbuilding is immense and there is even more psychology than in FF8! (and philosophy too!)
@@Ranben. I think the developer's background and inspiration is discussed within the Xenogears Review on this channel. Please check it out.
And yes - only the most advanced experts in the field of discussion and philosophy could take on this beast. I expect an 8 hour discussion, nothing less (maybe a bit more). :D
It's strange how one views age as a youngster. Like, I first play this as a young teen, and Squall and co may as well be middle aged. I play it recently in my thirties, and I'd stay behind at the bus stop if they were getting on the last bus home . . .
It's very weird. Looking back on my life, people who were older than me at a specific moment always seem like they were older than they actually were, in my memory. There was a high school bully I had a bunch of fights with, he was 2 years ahead of me, probably all of 17 to my 15. In my mind, when I think back to that time, he and his grade at 17 are somehow STILL older than me in my brain now, even though I'm in my late 30's. But when I see a 17 year-old at this age, they all seem like kids. Same thing for my parents, who were really young when they had me, so for all the events of my childhood my parents were quite a bit younger than I am now, but in my memories they always seem eternally older than I'll ever be. I don't know if there's a name for that time distortion in childhood memory, or if anyone else experiences that, but it's very odd.
I recently replayed FF7, FF8 and FF9, and the FF8 is by far the one that aged the best, and even today is my favorite. It has superior story, atmosphere, music and characters to the other two games.
I think the junction system combined with the card mod ability make it a pretty fun game from a pure progression standpoint as well. A lot of the game's difficulty can be trivialized by an attentive player who solves the game's mechanics. Majority of those players will probably be on their second or third playthrough, will net Diablos as soon as possible, and will be flying through the game with no encounters turned on just while they relive the story.
Also, the theory crafting of fans over the years have made the game a lot of fun to analyze, more so than the other golden era titles.
I would say that FF 7 is a classic FF by the numbers but in 3D but with great characters, story and world, FF 9 is a beautiful jrpg in the line of chrono cross, and FF 8 is a total experimental jrpg in the line of parasite eve., lets face it., FF 8 is nothing like the old NES and SNES FF games, is totally different in many ways, but FF 7 and FF 9 are more in line with the old games
Man the sequence with Rinoa in that stasis pod always gave me the creeps just the way the camera is positioned top down and then she gets possessed and *holy shit* it gave me nightmares as a kid when the pod opened and the music just *holy shit*
As for why the Eshtar radio operator was so eager to receive contact from the Ragnarok, I always had assumed that Laguna, Ellone and company were received by Esthar when they landed from their pods, and that they told operators to be on the lookout for contact because Squall and Rinoa were still out in space. The way the operator speaking to Squall asks if the Sorceress Rinoa is with him gave me that impression.
In regards to the criticism of squall on the flip flopping. I think the most obvious point was missed. The lack of "thought" text boxes is evidence that squall is starting to react and act off the "cuff" so to speak. Which is a completely new endeavor for someone who has ignored emotion his whole life and used logic to resolve problems. The flip flops totally are natural for someone trying to find the middle ground in that constant struggle and for his age is extremely common.
You think Ellone told the other party members what Squall was doing, and that’s why the party met Squall on the railroad? They got that connection with her too.
Now I can't help but picture Seifer as one of those kids who gets really into ninja swords because he watches Hero or something and decides to make that his whole identity. LOL
Played this recently on Switch again (2nd time, since 1999) and its such a joy listening to you guys breaking it down. Thx. Just.. thx
Regarding your comment on how it would've been interesting to see how Ellone managed to cope through her traumatic experiences, I think that the reason we get so little clear information is because the game is told from Squall's perspective. And he almost never gets exposed to her until Squall reaches the Lunar Base, except during that brief encounter in the Balamb Library and during trips into Laguna's past.
That being said, as I mentioned in my earlier comment, FF8 likes to tell us things without telling them directly. So what is the game implying about Ellone?
For one, like Squall, she strives to maintain a strong front to hide her vulnerability. For Squall, this translates as aloofness and avoidance of others. The people who cared for him left or died, so coping was a matter of learning to be on his own.
For Ellone, she becomes a caregiver. And this gives echo to the fact that she found two parental figures in Raine and Laguna that put in the effort to try and keep her safe or rescue her in her times of need (something that Squall never really got to experience, as he isolated himself very young). Raine adopted her after Ellone's parents were killed and she was abducted. Uncle Laguna gave up his career to try and save her from Esthar and Sorceress Adel and he quite literally put an end to the Sorceress War to do so. That's no small feat in itself and it probably gave Ellone incentive to do the same for others after she returned to Winhill. Paying it forward, in a way. She cares for others in a way that reflects how the fact that others cared for her sincerely saved her from a gruesome existence.
It's very clear that Ellone is quite taken with Laguna as a savior figure, but I think that her trauma still haunted her to the present day, as all her attempts to send Squall into Laguna's past were done in the hopes that she could find some way to undo the harm that happened to her, by perhaps helping Laguna reach her quicker. Like everyone else in this game, she participates in the hopeless struggle to resist fate, and this to me speaks volumes about Ellone's trauma.
Brilliant analysis! I'd like to discuss the fact that Ellone sent her old friends back into the past without their consent and mostly for her own benefit. I think her reason for wanting to change the past was primarily so that she wouldn't be separated from Laguna. She jeopardised the party's safety by making them fall unconscious against their will, and it's some miracle that they were in a safe place each time it happened. I don't dislike the character of Ellone for this -- it is perfectly okay for stories to have flawed characters with selfish motivations -- and I am glad that Squall confronts her in the library for it. I'm not sure how I wish it had been different, but I feel sad that we don't see and learn a little more about Ellone and how she feels to have been forgotten by her old orphanage companions after all this time.
this has been so vindicating to hear. I put the way Seifer holds the sword comparatively to Laguna together back when I was younger and obsessed over all the little story details that weren't seemingly mentioned…I actually loved how all of this was subtext and not supposed to be some huge reveal, story moment. Its just there if you paid attention….however, only a few friends agreed with me. This was awesome to hear you guys lay out. Well done. Such a good podcast to listen through. Worth recommending to any FF8 lover.
I’m loving this whole series. Thanks for the great content, really cool to see this game broken down into such detail!!!
I like that they used the Dollet theme in the Lunar station. I think that the “dance” that you mentioned (and rightly so) just reflects how technologically advanced Esthar is. They are so evolved in that regard that taking a trip to the moon is so safe (most of the time) that it’s become pretty much commonplace. So much so that they can even establish a base and have people live there.
There are back to future references too. When the team prepare to leave for timbre and eventually rob a moving train zell is late and apears on a hoverboard only tp get ir confiscated. Possibly because they couldnt get a way to ride the hoverboard while robbing the train.
"Bring me back there, I'm alive."
"I'll never let you forget about me."
Wow. I've loved this game since its release in 99' and I never knew that. THAT's a goosebumps-over-the-skin level revelation. That's ridiculously eerie.
And can we all just take a moment to appreciate the fact that despite the convenience of it showing up, the Ragnarok is hands down the coolest personal ship that any FF has ever given to the player? In point-of-fact it's likely the coolest conveyance in ANY sci-fi game outside of maybe the Normandy SR-2 Alliance retrofit from Mass Effect 3.
I think it's totally fair to say that Squall and Rinoa happening upon the Ragnarok in orbit is a deus ex machina. It is quite literally a plot device that unexpectedly allows them to be saved from certain death against all odds, because that's what a deus ex machina is. And, like all miracles, it really tests our ability to tolerate something that seems so unlikely that it defies verisimilitude. It's not impossible, but I'll be damned if anyone could have foreseen this, after the desperate moment Squall shared with Rinoa.
You make a fair point, but I think the issue is that the game has already thrown in a number of plot twists and contrivances in short succession by the time the Ragnarok shows up. Asking the player to accept yet another can feel like a push too far.
Most anything you can gripe about with “how could that happen? That’s illogical!” Can be sated with: it’s fate. It is fated that they succeed, so many illogical or unbelievable things will happen to achieve the ultimate end.
Regarding the "flip" in how the party reacts to what's happening to Rinoa at the end of Disc Two vs. the start of Disc Three, I don't see that as problematic. Rinoa was in immediate danger at the end of Disc Two, but at the start of Disc Three, she's in a coma in the infirmary. Her situation is worrisome, but it doesn't warrant immediate reaction. Especially when the party has the opportunity to learn about the bigger issues at hand during a moment of calm. In a way, the party has a better sense of responsibility than Squall does, because the burden of leadership tends to cloud his judgment. The flip is certainly ironic, but it really shows how this entire situation is really putting Squall on the verge of completely burning out.
And the interesting thing about how Squall isn't listening to Edea's explanations at the orphanage is that it highlights all the subtle ways in which Squall grew close to Rinoa throughout the first two discs. These things were never mentioned directly when they happened, but that's because Squall had never taken the time to really reflect on his relationship with Rinoa up to then. He had taken her for granted without realizing it and it's all hitting him like a ton of bricks.
I was kind of thinking that too, but I almost wonder if it wasn't a just a stylistic choice. Like, they wanted to really demonstrate the depth of focus Squall has on Rinoa's condition at this point in the story by contrasting him with the other characters. He's hyperfocused and has tunnel vision. By this point, Zell, Selphie, and the others have all come to accept Rinoa's current state and said "shoganai" but Squall can't do that. They're all worried about her, sure, but Squall can't see that they're worried because he's the most worried and his conscious facet keeps telling him that he only has a baseline level of concern. As such, we, the players, feel as though Zell and the others are aloof and uninterested, when the reality is Squall just can't fathom that they can be equal parts accepting and terrified.
@@deralmighty8011 I think that we tend to give the party far too little credit in understanding what's going on (likely due to the game's first-person perspective on Squall).
They've all been trying to connect with Squall the entire game to no avail. Or at least, insofar as Squall would like to admit it. But they probably understand him better than he thinks because they see how Rinoa lets Squall connect with his humanity and they understand that he needs her, even when he can't see it himself. This is why they do that silly little gig in FH. This is why they were so intent on Squall saving her during the Garden Battle at the end of Disc Two.
And it's not like they don't care about Rinoa or Squall. That much becomes clear when they preempt Squall's solo mission to save Rinoa in the railroad from FH to Esthar. Squall might not want to let them in, but the thing is that they were already in to begin with. And they provide the clarity he needs when he feels too laden by the weight of his responsibility (towards Garden, towards Rinoa).
Sometimes, this means pushing Squall to action (Garden Battle); at others, it means taking a step back and getting a good look at the big picture. Quistis and Irvine, in particular, show that they do reflect on these issues.
Thank you guys! Beem dying for this last part and now I'm starting my playthru over a decade later haha
I love your series and really enjoy it while working. Its making my day so much better :) I played this game so many time and its so cool to get even more information about it that i just missed. I appreciate your hard work on the research and I am looking forward to the next episodes ! Keep up this amazing work
The Laguna victory pose thing blew my mind!!! This is amazing!!
This podcast made me remember some FF8 fanfiction I wrote 11 years ago. Most of what is discussed here feels like new information for me, but looking at the fanfic, I was hella into this game. Might have to play it again with new eyes.
Re-watching this again and I had the thought on the series of events in the past. Laguna rescues Ellone, then sends Ellone back to Raine, but stays in Esthar as it's president out of obligation (at first). Shortly afterwards, Raine gives birth to Squall and dies. Ellone and Squall get sent to the Orphanage. I am pretty sure Laguna didn't know where she was at this point, and may not have found out about Raine's death at all for some time. The kids at the orphanage are raised for some time. Ultimecia's dying body arrives and gives her power to Edea. This is the catalyst for Edea and Cid to start creating SeeD, in addition to Ellone probably coming in to her powers more as she gets older. The first SeeDs, the white SeeDs, then take Ellone away at some point because - for *some* reason - the orphanage isn't considered safe for Ellone anymore. I *assume* it's because Edea gets possessed by Ultimecia and that's the catalyst to get Ellone out. Cid continues to grow SeeD, the kids are raised to be SeeDs, Edea as Ultimecia gathers power to try and find Ellone (including eventually taking over Galbadia to help the search), Ellone is moving around constantly (and rarely getting to visit Balamb and Cid) to keep away from Ultimecia. Laguna probably starts searching for Ellone as well at some point, but can't go himself anymore as the Esthar President. That's why it's only when the Esthar ship comes across the White SeeD ship that Ellone leaves for Esthar, and not before. You'd think that if Laguna *knew* that Ellone went to the orphanage, he'd have gone and snatched her up asap after Raine's death, along with Squall as well probably. It always read to me that Laguna knowing about Squall was recent, ala once Ellone jumped ship and got to Esthar, she told Laguna he had a son. Because, with Esthar's seclusion, she had no way to tell him prior.
1:23:39
Oh man, that is such a disturbing yet awesome detail. I played FF8 in the '90s and then the remaster last year, but I missed that one. Thanks for sharing!
I really appreciate this discussion. Brings back lots of fond memories, and makes me want to replay the game all over again, even despite some major (and not-so major) problems with the writing or handling of characters and plot (etc.) in places. You guy do a terrific job of balancing praise, critique, summary, and questions about the story here.
And I am glad you bring up production details which explains or might explain why the game ended up the way it did, while also not using that as an excuse for the parts which fell apart or were lackluster.
And while I very much doubt very young me was consciously thinking critically about the game when I was playing it, much of what you've said rang very true to how I felt, at least, about certain parts: Squall's relatability, how amazing the cinematics are, how strange it is that Quistis is a teacher but only 1 year older than Squall, how confusing the GFs (etc.) are, how weird the tone and character reactions get during the Battle of Balamb Garden and that Rinoa is able to hold onto the ledge for so long, but also how awesome Squall's fight is, how high the stakes are concerning Adel and the monsters and how bizarre and disappointing it is that the consequences are so underwhelming and unbelievable, the "Whatever." "Whatever." dialogue between Squall and Rinoa, etc.
Again, stellar job with the discussion and articulating how I remember feeling about a lot of things in this game (both good and bad, but mostly good).
Wow. I never made that 2001: a space odyssey connection before. This series makes me want to replay FF8 now.
These podcasts are great
I know you are probably going to touch this topic on the next Video. But maybe you won’t approach it this way, now i might be wrong, since no “100%” confirmation is given in the game.
But Ultimecias and FFVIII timelines are different, so she did change the past per say, she just could not escape her Fate. In her timeline, she took over the world, and was eventually defeated by Squall( The legendary Seed) and his White Seeds, that’s why there are white seeds corpses on her Castle.
So since time travel requires an origin point, to diverge from, I’m assuming and this is where the fun part is, that on Ultimecias original timeline, Squall and White Seeds, who’s origins in this timeline are different, from VIII origin, stormed her castle and fought her to the death, but since a sorceress is unable to die, with out passing her powers to another sorceress, she had to time travel to the past, to a time where a sorceress was alive, so she went back in time and for some reason skipped Rinoa, and went all the way back to Edea.
Now this is where the plot becomes an issue, akin to what came first, the chicken or the Egg ? By traveling back in time, and passing her powers and mind to Edea, in order to escape her death, ultimecia ultimately seals her fate, by being the origin and reason as to why Seed is created in FFVIII timeline.
Now we do know, that by the time we put the controller down and beat the game, and the credits roll, her time paradox is Broken. Squall and company allowed her to use time compression, to finally defeat her, and not allow her to continue the loop 🔁.
The questions are, if she had to time travel to the past, it means there were no sorceress host alive, so Edea and Rinoa were dead by the time original timeline Squall and the white Seeds initially killed Ultimecia. For some reason she went all the way back to Edea, when she could have just posses Rinoa, who we know is a sorceress Host. Why ?
Another question is, why was the original Seeds created on Ultimecias Timeline ? We know that #1 She took over the world with her powers, but we don’t know which sorceress she inherited those powers From. Maybe Adele ? Maybe Adele always escapes her imprisonment and returns to the world, then is fought by the nations and is defeated, forcing her to pass her powers to Ultimecia. And #2 Rinoa and Edea are dead on this future, since Ultimecia had to travel back in time to pass her powers before Dying.
Are those two reasons the original reason why Seed was created in Ultimecias original timeline ? 🤷🏻♂️ who the fuck knows, but is fun to think about 😂
It's interesting that you say that Ultimecia's timeline is different from Squall and co. I always thought that they shared the same timeline, and that Ultimecia was from the distant future.
Therefore I assumed that either the White SEEDs were kept running as an organisation in preparation for Ultimecia's eventual ascension or revived in response to it. She does talk about how sorceresses have seen as being evil in her Deling City speech, and hints to have been persecuted, hence her decision to engage in acts of evil and the need for people in her time to stand up to her (also interesting to note is that in one of the Dissidia games, if you beat her as anyone besides Squall in one of the battle modes, she explains that her motivation for time compression is to return to her childhood).
But also I literally haven't played FF8 in like 17 years, so I may have forgotten the hint or suggestion that Ultimecia's from a parallel timeline.
@@kalinkapavlova9398 I did too, but given the information we are told by the Game. It can’t happen the same way, the first time of the loop.
A sorceress has to pass her powers to another or they can’t Die.
We know it is Squall who kills Ultimecia, and that he is the legendary SEED. So we can assume, for X or Y reason, Rinoa is dead in that future, and so is Adele, or maybe she is still trapped in Space.
We see future Squall meeting past squall and Edea, passing the information of creating SEED and Garden. But he was fighting with White SEEDs.
When we get to invade ultimecia, there are no White SEED with us 🤔. So where did they come from ?
@@Norel_Nieves Oh I think I get what you mean: that if it's a question of "chicken or the egg" then there *is* an answer, even if we don't know what exactly it is? It's definitely a loose thread I hadn't considered.
Now it's making me think about the Ringed City DLC of Dark Souls 3.
love this, ff 7-10 are like my most favorite games in the world. great job
I love Laguna. He is basically “Failing Upward” personified, it’s amazing to watch
Great work guys. Makes me want to play ff viii for the 8th time ...
the timber television station thing is just 🤯
I could not disagree more about the vocal version of Eyes on Me being the wrong pick for the ragnarok scene. The song in universe is written by Julia about Laguna, about a love she wasn't able to have. The lyrics work so well because they're almost like Squall and Rinoa's thoughts. Squall's finally letting this all in and Rinoa knows that as soon as they land they're going to be separated. The lyrics feed into that atmosphere so much to me at least. In a game without voice acting this is one of those rare moments where you can use lyrics to accentuate the emotion the characters cant quite vocalize. That scene with that song are probably up there as one of my favorite moments in FF history.
Moombas are able to remember people by tasting their blood. This is why they mistook Squall as Laguna in the prison as they have the same blood.
43:30 I used to feel that way too, regarding what seemed like radical shifts in characterization. I don't know if it's a strength or a weakness of it, but FF8's storyline can never really be appreciated to its real value during a first playthrough. But looking back after piecing everything out, I have to admit that FF8's storyline is probably one of the better written ones in the entire franchise. When you understand the context of everything, the characterization begins to make a lot of sense and you get a new outlook on scenes that you might have taken for granted in previous playthroughs.
In a way, FF7 took a similar approach with respect to Cloud's mental illness and how Tifa responds to him, but it really feels both a lot more fleshed out and subtle in FF8, perhaps because we get such an intricate first-person narrator in Squall as a protagonist.
1:41:25 Considering how much you guys have been talking about how time cannot be changed when referencing Ellone and her powers and how the main theme of the game is fate even so far as the opening title song, 'Liberi Fatali', mentioning the children of fate I would have to say I agree with you in that it isn't unfair to call the Ragnarok appearing at that precise moment a deus ex machina, but at the same time, you just got done talking about the Lunar Cry and how all of these moments have collided to create a perfect storm situation that not only repopulates the planet with monsters but also serves as a means for Adel to reach the planet's surface as if someone was pulling the strings, some sorceress possibly from the future, the whole time to create this moment to happen.
It is a deus ex machina, and the god is Ultimecia. Unfortunately for her, even through time kompression, fate cannot be altered to fit one's own will. The past is set, the future is set. All of Ultimecia's machinations, thinking she was more powerful than Ellone, much the same way as Casen was alluding when referencing Squall's emotions about Rinoa in light of Ellone's admission that she can't change the past, she still is unable to prevent the chords of fate from playing the song they are made to play.
Too often is the term "Deus Ex Machina" used as a criticism of a plot structure, when everything that you've been talking about up to now has lead to just such an occasion. It is a deus ex machina, because it's supposed to be a deus ex machina. Unashamedly.
I'm very thankful for these videos.
Yes!! I really appreciate the work guys!
This podcast is great, I’m now replaying FF8 with a whole new perspective and enjoying it far more than my initial playthrough, and I’m having so much more fun, both with a more positive outlook on the story and characters, but also on the gameplay too.
I also think the Ragnarok in space was a deus ex machina ...but does anyone think it would've been better if they spent an extended amount of time floating around trying to survive in space? Talking and comforting each other, flipping between scared and hopeful, like a desperate survival sequence? I think the movie Gravity worked because Sandra Bullock spent an extensive, stressful time in space with nearly no hope until finally....hope shows up in a couple ways. And then things continue to go wrong and she has to solve them, but you get the point. Holding out hope for good luck is not uncommon in stories to me, I just think FF8's Ragnarok showed up waaaay too quickly and exaggerated the convenience.
This series of videos has been incredible so far. Picked up tons of little details I've missed and gain a more nuanced appreciation for the story. I also have to praise the quality of the production with the set and audio. Really, phenomenal work.
One bit of constructive criticism to something that is already pretty spectacular: the two of you seem to speak over each other a lot in these later videos, sometimes for a sentence or longer. Might just be how the two of you communicate, but it can be a bit jarring to piece together what both of you are saying at the same time.
This series is like a before/after infomercial for Mike's pecs
Oh wow! I didn’t know about Squall’s father being Laguna. Genuinely surprised. Thanks guys
The music on the way to the space station is indeed played in Dollet - but it's first heard during the party after the SeeD exam. It's the music just before the one Squall and Rinoa are dancing to.
I also love that Squall is awkward and shy overly serious again soon as Rinoa woke up. I've literally done that kind of thing in highschool ugg.
Watching 6hrs almost at this point about people breaking down a game some of my hardcore RPG friends have argued with me for having in my top five FF games is kind of nice. (I just feel the characters in my opinion were the most human.)
I agree with a lot of the critique, not a big fan of the gameplay(enjoy the limits and the GF's are kind of cool), but what I realize from watching this is why I enjoyed it so much more than some who criticize it.
I'm super big on mega exploring everything even on my first playthrough. So I was sort of aware and following a lot of what may have been plot holes and/or important pieces of info, it never occurred to me other people weren't.
As a writer(check out my sci-fi novels sometime anyone, um, reading this. Rain and/or Mortal Gods, By: Bryan P. Hughes), I have to agree with you in saying, side content should be extra, add too, or just a unique stand alone arc. It should never be necessary to understanding the main plot. I wouldn't have noticed that flaw if not for this.
These are just very good breakdowns and I like that your perspectives on it are not completely alike.
Look forward to the next one.
The letters on the screen also, such a cool Easter egg.
During the discussion of why Squall is okay with Rinoa's plan to give herself up is an acceptance of both of them realizing SeeDs original purpose: Fight the Sorceress. Now that Rinoa is a Sorceress, and Squall being SeeD, his duty would be to fight and kill her at some point. Here's the rub, this is a moment they thought of during the Ragnarok reentry scene, just a moment where it's a sudden cold reasoning. Squall being Squall his okay even if we don't see it, at the moment Esthar takes her to be sealed, he's thinking "I love you too much to kill you" and he thinks it's better to have her sealed up and locked in some bunker than having to be forced to kill her.
Good that you pointed out that the sudden radio interference might be the reason Estar was surprised that the 17 year-lost Ragnarok was able to be reached again. It is highly probable that they didn't foresee that bringing Adel to space would cause the radio interference. Because of this, the 17 year-old communication system from the Ragnarok might not be equiped to handle the radio interference. They will then be surprised that that machine is still operational and can then be reached by the legacy radio system. It is also probable that they still have the legacy radio system online even if they happen to have an updated radio system which negates the interference. Good stuff and great wotk on these podcasts. It makes people greatly appreciate this highly divisive game.
1:45:25 I think squall is just new and awkward towards affection....
Well new to certain feelings period. You see he eiher keeps stuff inside or does some outburst of emotions. Rarely in between. I think he honestly does love her.
Also, even though got big sis back and it seemed he wasnt concerned about her anymore...well by that time, rinoa was more important. Makes sense to me.....cause they're teens lol!!!
re: ellone having had a rougher time than squall but ending up being a kinder person than Squall. It made me think: Ellone sure had to go through more trauma than Squall, but she at least remembered what happened and could come to terms with it. Squall only had the result of his trauma, but no recollection of what exactly caused it and no way of addressing it.
FF8 has this whole big theme of growing up, that you need to let people in in order to do so and especially you need to face your fears and don't live in regrets, otherwise you're going to be alone and unhappy; you can't change the past and it's no useful to forget or repress your memories: i think that's what they were going for with the GF, thematically it's genius that they give you this huge power but take away your memories, and it's a real pity that wasn't shown more in the story because who wouldn't want to forget the worst part of their lives and be happier as a result? but that's not real power (GF lets you use PARAmagic, not even real magic! ah, i just thought of that one lol) and that's not growing up.
I think the execution of 8 is pretty clumsy, very exploitable in its mechanics and the characters are so distinctive to one another as people but mechanically are the same character with different limit breaks; but i think at its core is a very sweet story with a big heart, it's the one i come back most of the time when i feel nostalgic of that teenage feeling lol.
anyway, i greatly enjoyed your podcasts, keep up the good work! :) (sorry if you addressed all of this in the later part of the episode, i hit pause and left the comment in the middle of the video ahah)
This is such a good comment. I agree that the GFs affecting memory could have been acceptable if the execution had been right. Amnesia is one of those things that can easily feel cheap if not written perfectly, and the writers of FFVIII sadly failed. There could have been stronger hints earlier in the game to make the player question why the other Gardens refuse to use GFs, and there should have been a much deeper revelation of why GFs erase memories and which memories in particular. It could be that GFs as creatures specifically block memories of death and loss so that the wielder will want to continue using them and forget the destruction they can cause (this is just a thought that's popped into my head and I don't think it's perfect). I also wish the characters would feel some kind of hurt for being exploited by Garden in this way. They have basically lost their childhood because the Garden wanted to make them into super-strong soldiers. The characters just brush it off and never want to talk about it, meanwhile alarm bells are screaming in my head that they've been totally abused. Even if Cid can come up with the excuse that it wasn't ever 100% clear that GFs block memories, he was still surely aware of the rumours. He had the pedagogical responsibility to look into those rumours before subjecting children to this GF experiment. I am furious on the characters' behalf and I wish they would have confronted him about it. Even if they can somehow accept it, at the very least they need to react or else the revelation is totally hollow.
@@Lunariant thank you!! i agree completely. I think at the time, after the harry potter boom, a school of specialized fantasy job didnt seem that weird ahah but yeah when you look at it... they were taking in kids (majority of which were probably orphans, i think it's implied a lot of kids lost their parents in the witch war) to make them into mercenaries, and that's a front because the real reason is to find the very best to use against Ultimecia.
I guess expanding the canon is what fanfics are for! :D I doubt ff8 will ever get the collection treatment and maybe... that's for the best....................................... lol
If you access Squall's Study panel there is a Public Message board for the students. And it looks like Seifer is one of the disciplinary committee, and I find it so funny when he is after those troll students on the message board. There is even a message for Zell from her secret admirer haha. There is a "1st comment too" just like on every youtube video from a Quistis fan lol
Centra being destroyed 80 years ago baffles me and makes no sense. When you visit it, you are clearly wandering in the ruins of a very very ancient civilization. Everything about it and how forgotten it seems to be screams "ancient civilization from a past long gone". That's why you assumed it was the case imo and for good reason
Centra is an ancient society in the games history. In fact all human originated there there spread across the globe. The ancient structurea were ancient when it was destroyed 80 years ago. Imagine if greece or italy were destoryed today. There could still be ruins from ancient rome like the Colosseum or ancient greece like acropolis
@@theloseph not very convincing. There are ruins of the ancient civ but nothing remains of the more modern towns and facilities? If Greece and Itlay were destroyed you would find ruins of modern day Rome more surely than of the ancient forum. What's more, a whole fucking continent was destroyed 80 years ago and a whole population was scattered across the globe yet noone mentions Centra throughout the whole game. Surely if it was that recent the memory and trauma would have still been very vivid. To compare, 80 years ago was World War II and you can clearly see the stigma everywhere in modern society. But for a whole continent it is as if it never existed? nah this shit disappeared at least 500 years before the start of the game
The game is inconsistent in how it presents the timing of the destruction of Centra. At one point a character says "You know that huge crater on the Centra continent? It's from the Lunar Cry that happened *over 100 years ago*. It supposedly wiped out the city there."
We also learn that the Centra civilisation flourished 400 years ago, and some unknown time between then and its destruction the Centra people built the central mechanisms of Garden that allowed them to migrate to the other continents where they founded the Holy Dollet Empire and Esthar. It could be that they built them in order to escape, which would suggest they knew a Lunar Cry was coming. We know that Centra had some advanced technology based on the cables on the ground in Centra Ruins; meanwhile the gargoyles, stained glass windows and statue of a sorceress with her knight suggest the Centra people were probably religious. My personal theory is that the Holy Dollet Empire renounced technology in the name of religion, hence the 'Holy' name, whereas Esthar fully embraced technology. That would explain the extreme discrepancy in scientific advancement by the time of the game's events.
I believe there must have been other ruins on the Centra continent, but the developers simply didn't make any assets for them either due to time constraints or because they weren't important to the story they wanted to tell. I imagine there were more towns and cities in the Galbadia continent than just the four we see, and there are probably some people living in Trabia too. In all Final Fantasy games with world maps, I choose to imagine the worlds containing much more than we are shown.
I've beaten FF8 for the first time earlier this year. I really liked some things in the game and really hated other things in the game. This analysis has made me see it in a whole new light and made me wanted to start the game over again. I would be interested to see a FF9 analysis as that's currently my favourite FF game.
And now just beating if for the third time I actually quite like the game a lot. I still have issues with it but I say it's a very good final fantasy game thats both very underrated and overhated.
Thanks for producing this wonderful podcast mah dudez, i‘m enjoying the fetch out of it.
Squall being Lagunas son explains more why Squall was closer to Ellone than the others at the orphanage. She would have formed a bond closer to him becaise of Laguna
Oh my gosh i cried the first time i played FFVIII and reached the Railroad section with Squall and Rinoa ... and seeing the others at the end of the line , i got so emotional.
I think this section is very emotionally important for Squall , not just is he finally opening up , but also being true to himself and admiting all this , and at the end he sees that he actually can depend on others , they are there for him , even though he didnt ask them.
2:14:05
Essentially he's a traumatised 17yo with abandonment issues. His attitude to me as someone who saw himself in aspects of the character is "I can't let them get close in case they leave me, it's better to alone"
Some things to consider about the Ragnarok/radio interference. 1. They might not have had someone constantly manning a radio tower, but they might have restarted their attempts at radio communication once they knew the signal was clear again. 2. They might have been deliberately trying to contact spacecraft to figure out what the hell was going on up there. 3 Esthar probably did have some kind of radio communication because we know that you can broadcast anyway if you have a strong enough signal, as seen with the tower in Dollet. 4. Squall is the president’s son and Rinoa is the new sorceress so the Esthar radio guy was probably ordered to try to contact and rescue them specifically.
Thanks for all the effort you two put into this series. It's excellent and I'll be playing FFVIII again in the near future.
Also I'm so happy to see all the background world building and lore that's actually in the game. I always felt it was a bit sparse, so learning all these things make me love the game all the more. That Adel message in Timber? Class
20+ years and I never noticed the Laguna/Seifer stuff.
Watching right after finishing part 3.
You two are great!
I'm even thinking to play FFVIII, I had to stop 3 times at end of disk 3 in my life, always happened something and prevented me from finishing. lol
But I already know most of the end and theories about. That's it, now starting Ep4.
I've played through FF8 three times now I think, and I'm still learning more about the game. I didn't know about Hyne, or the Laguna sequence in Shumi Village that you can only get until a certain point in the game. I didn't know that Norg was evolving, I had no idea that that was a cocoon. And I didn't know that you could exempt Ward from the party for the Dragon dream sequence.
Something that is awesome about FF8 is that you have to go looking for the info. It's not just handed to you. Whether it be information important to the plot, or getting GF's or cards and items to refine. So much is hidden and while it can seem annoying and tedious, it's also incredible because in real life, no information is just handed to you. You actually have to go looking for information in real life. FF8 is an incredibly under rated game. It has its flaws for sure, but it gets too much flak in my opinion.
Idk if you’ve ever heard anyone mention this but when I was a kid I would often write FFEight on my notebooks in school and what not because it’s spells “Fate”. This was before I had heard of the Children of Fate thing but I always thought that was interesting
I really enjoyed your analysis; I found it insightful and generally fair. I was surprised to learn tidbits that I hadn't puzzled out yet, such as the connection between Laguna's movie and Seifer's overall character development. As a psych major, it's interesting to note in retrospect that "insecure disorganized attachment style" is a branch of attachment theory that is shown to be more common for children who've been adopted and actually maps onto a lot of Squall's maladaptive behavior pretty well. It's generally characterized by an extreme need for closeness (Ellone), an intense fear of rejection, and a tendency to push people away. It seems unlikely that his character was developed with this theory in mind. Still, I think it speaks to the writers' credit that the archetype they created (despite garnering criticism for being alienating or unrelatable as the main character) was actually very true to life.
A little late to video, but regarding the "flip and flop" of Squall around that bridge and turning Rinoa, discussed on section 17. I always took it as the conflict of "Love vs Duty".
Thinking everything that had happened just to get Rinoa back, while finally having what he wanted, duty needed for her to turn herself in. But once it happened, he finally realized (with encouragement) that Love trumps duty. Hence the rescue and Hug (ff8 logo)
These podcasts have helped me put into words one of my longstanding issues with FFVIII's treatment of its characters, which is that once the orphanage plot twist is revealed, the playable characters besides Squall and Rinoa become single-minded and act in agreement with each other at all times. They all urge Squall to save Rinoa during the Battle of the Gardens, then they all urge Squall not to focus on helping Rinoa when she's paralysed (I agree the way they say it is shockingly callous -- I get their motivations but they could be much more tactful and empathetic), and they all chastise Squall for giving up Rinoa once they are back in Esthar. Besides that they simply do very little for the rest of the game. Disc 3 is known to have been rushed, and it seems they left out scenes that gave the characters their own individual thoughts and motivations. The heavy lean into romance on disc 3 feels especially abrupt because every other main character is virtually left behind; suddenly a story with rich characterisation decides that only the two leads are particularly important.
As you said in the previous episode, the orphanage reveal changes virtually nothing, which makes it deeply unsatisfying. I wish that the story had built on the premise of the 'fated children' by letting the characters explore their changing feelings for each other as their memories return. The characters could have questioned why they were made to use GFs despite the rumours of memory loss and asked why Garden wanted to make soldiers out of children. I wish they would have interrogated Cid and Edea so they would learn about their fate. This would help the player understand the way time works in the FFVIII world, and it would give the characters the chance to accept or reject their past on their own terms.
Ultimately I adore this game and I find it endlessly fascinating. I'm so grateful to Mike and Casen for inspiring me to think about this game from new perspectives and for creating this space to discuss the game in depth. This has been an amazing podcast that I'll definitely revisit many times. My only critique, which I hope you'll find constructive, is that you have a tendency to cut each other off in the middle of sentences. In some cases this leads to both speakers talking at the same time, while at other times we don't get to hear you finish your thoughts. It's normal for overlaps to occur in casual conversation, but at times I wish I would have heard the end of an interrupted sentence.
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There's also the whole thing with Rinoa being a sorceress -- we just saw Ultimecia influencing Rinoa's decisions, so it is possible for a sorceress to influence the past in some way. After the end of the game, IIRC, Rinoa still has sorceress powers that she passes on down the line, although I had always thought of her being the only 'good' sorceress. With that in mind, I could very easily see RInoa manipulating events in the past in much the same way that we see Ultimecia doing it. Then again, isn't Ultimecia's appearance in the first place a result of time compression? Maybe that wouldn't quite work...
I’m so late on this series but FFVIII is my favorite game of all time and it’s such a beautiful experience listening to you explore it’s depths and intricacies and, frankly, beauty of the game. I’ve always felt VIII was unfairly maligned for its combat system and it’s best parts are often overlooked as a result.
11 year old me is both validated and enraptured by these episodes. Just…thank you for making this.
To me FF8 has a lot of world building compared to most JRPGs. Seems like most JRPGs only tells you about the world that the game deems relevant.
Id watch you two run through every single video game like this. This is top tier shit.
I think Squall's sudden realization of his love for Rinoa would have hit a lot harder if -she- had been the one to rescue -him- during the battle of the gardens. But I suppose then we wouldn't have gotten that set-piece fistfight on the flying drone thing
i love this analysis style of the whole game. would love to see 9 done
What an excelent work, guys. Absolutely great.
I have just a little addition/correction about what you said to Edea and Ultimicia.
You mentioned Edea resisting her influence with all her strentgh...
In fact Edea tells in the Orohanage that she did the complete opposite and gave herself completely into Ultimicia... therefor erasing all of herself including her memories of Ellone and where she is to protect her. So when we see Edea on disc one and two she really is just a vessel fully taken over by Ultimicia...
But exactly that made Edea kind of useless for Ultimicias plan in the longrun... and when she was defeated in galbadia garden, thats when she changed the plan.
I also have the little theorie that it is because of Rinoas earlier feelings for cifer that she suddenly became more friendly to him again.
Because Rinoa wouldn't have known how to protect her feelings or memories against ultimicia. Therefor Ultimicia "bonded" the first time with Ceifer as her Knight on an emotional level.
Oh... something to add.
It is truely odd that they put 'eyes on me' with the vocals in the scene inside ragnarok... or better to say not the best choice in an excecutive perspektive.
however... from a story point it was the perfect point.
as you mentioned Julia was Rinoas mother. And 'Eyes on me' was her first song he sang... written for Laguna.
So it made perfect sense to play the song with her singing (something julia was only brave enough to do after she met and talked to laguna) when their kids finally unite and embrace the love, Julia and Laguna could never share.