Claim your FREE Styanax here by Sep 21st: wrfr.me/Sty-SethTheProgrammer | Thanks to Warframe and Digital Extremes for sponsoring this video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I forgot COPY VEGETA!!! But it isn't too different than the manga fight. So no big deal.
For me it's always been like this: Vegeta definitely won their first fight and then they always were about equal,one surpassing the other at different points. Now they are almost equal with Goku maybe having the edge techniquewise
@@temmieKAT to be fair goku had the the kaioken and the moon was destroyed so vegeta needed to a technique to summon a temporary one called the power ball
@@temmieKAT There’s heavy implications that Vegeta would have actually won if he DIDN’T freak out about the Kaioken and go great ape. Or at least have enough to pummel a crippled Goku afterwards
I feel the reason why it seems Goku “unfairly” gets so much more help and training is merely because of his demeanor. He’s humble, patient, affable…I’d probably be more inclined to help him over an egotistical hot head. I feel that Vegeta is, and always will be, his own worst enemy in this regard.
@@ZenMasterScr3wy Couldn't have said it any better myself. Even for how far he has come he still do the same b.s. in every fight. The final flash on Jiren laughing afterwards. He probably could have killed moro in the beginning but wanted to flex.
I mean, he bumped his head and that changed his mental state as a baby. If you flip the roles, and that happens to Vegeta, Vegeta gets the same treatment. Not only that but he would be more poweful than Goku to the point that Goku wouldn’t be able to really catch up.
Not just that, one of the major advantages Vegeta always had over Goku throughout the entire series is his blood and talent. Guys is the king of all Saiyans ffs. Goku is just the son of a foot soldier. But he somehow is always one step ahead of Vegeta's pure blood and talent and potential. Thats only because Goku puts in the hard work and busts his ass more than Vegeta ever does. Granted Goku did have tons of master but if you wanted to make this debate truly "fair" then Goku should also receive the status of prince of all saiyans and have the talent and potentials just like Vegeta has.
@@blueoak5262 Based on Vegeta's past and upbringing, showing more love to Trunks wouldn't have made much sense and would also leave less chance for his character growth as a lack of love is kind of his thing. It's what makes him the anti-hero in the first place.
Power scaling aside, it's actually great that they gave them powerups that align with their personalities. It goes beyond "who can make the bigger laser beam" and becomes more of a self discovery and "who can master themselves more" type of deal. I know it's still dragon ball to its core but yeah that minor detail is still refreshing.
vegetas ultimate form then technically should be something more calm shouldnt it? that would mean that he had finally overcome his pride and EGO. a calm calculated vegeta at the height of his power would be terrifying. kind of like what he hints at in the super hero movie to goku about how jiren is always calm
i just thought of someting, i think Vegeta's final form will be called King Form, he will finally become self-actualized and reach his ultimate potential....the Prince will become the King
@@babyfood9537 i don’t think he’d wanna call himself king tho he respects and really loves his dad king vegeta too much to symbolically take over throne as king that’s why he has always called himself price vegeta, prince of all saiyans. i think ultra ego is the perfect “final form” for him
I always had Vegeta's back Him being second to Goku and still not giving up and even using Goku as an ispiration to climb bigger heights is beyond compelling
Bro everyone stay leaving behind. The simple fact from the fountain of youth releasing Goku full potential. And Vegeta got his decades later. Goku was able to set a high limit cause he already at the limit. Vegeta has to break thou his limit then majin Vegeta came thou and things changed cause Vegeta was able to break thou easier. He climbed faster and stronger than Goku without any help just straight training himself.. that speak Volumes
@@robertpineda577sure it would speak for himself expect Vegeta was born stronger,already had more training from his Sayian race,and was first seen stronger than goku lmaooo. So no the volume is vegeta fumbled the power lead and is playing catch up
The rivalry would be a lot better if the writers allowed vegeta to be stronger. Every time vegeta surpasses goku in the same arc goku just gets stronger(ever since the frieza arc). Vegeta is not allowed to be the strongest for too long since he’s not the main character
That's the thing. It's not that he isn't allowed his core reason to be stronger is goku. So Goku has to be stronger in order for vegeta to push himself. Remember how vegeta secluded himself in a room months and months when Goku died. That's his character his pride won't let Goku surpass him. And that's his main motivation now, him having family and all he has found more reasons. but incarnation of victory in his mind is goku. Which is a blessing in disguise. Because Goku keeps pushing his limits resulting in vegeta to do the same.
Not really the dynamic doesn't really work as well if Goku is behind Vegeta as Goku doesn't really care in the same way Vegeta does. The best route is where its competitive which super has done for the most part.
In my opinion I think it is much easier for vegeta to use Ultra ego to a higher degree of efficiency because it technically isn’t an angelic technique, it’s more of a power up using destructive energy. I think it’s harder for Goku to master ultra instinct to its full potential because his primal saiyan fighting instincts conflict with the calm and thoughtless nature of UI. So personally, I think vegeta is much more reliable as a fighter and much more consistent because of how much better UE suits him especially, but Goku has a higher potential with Ultra Instinct.
Ultra Instinct is an ability angels effortlessly. I think Whis states this is a power Gods of Destruction strive to achieve. None has achieved it yet. This ties in with the need to have a calm mind and high control on self. The whole shtick of a God of Destruction is being destructive and violent in their acts.
I honestly feel like it jus has to do with saiyans in universe 7 they were rash and killers mostly because of frieza. I feel like UI and a saiyan honestly work hand in hand because saiyans learn as the battle goes on and get stronger as well. The only issue with saiyans is they were never taught to control emotions and have a calm mind goku was by roshi and even in the TOP whis and beerus said that roshi was in a similar state of UI but hes a human so his limits are clear. If roshi was a saiyan he would proly have mastered ultra instinct already lol
The difference is that Goku seeks help and is willing to learn from others, always the student mindset. While Vegeta rarely does this cuse of his pride and don’t want to learn from others. It’s kinda the point to of the show if you read between the lines that you can come far on your own but with support and help from others you can go even further.
It’s not that he doesn’t want to learn from others. I know that Vegeta fans get this, it’s that he wants to achieve great power by himself. Goku cheats his way to greater power (kaioken x20 for example) while Vegeta always gets there or surpasses him by his own strength. Which, to me, is more admirable. Vegeta could’ve stolen kaioken, instant transmission, kamehameha, even tried the ritual for ssg, but his pride is getting there on his own. Might take longer, but Vegeta always reaches a new pinnacle. He even discovered and told Goku that going beyond Super Saiyan was possible. He might always be no. 2 due to plot (Goku will always be the main character & win), but for me, he’ll always be no. 1.
@@ancientphilosopher Vegeta has Evolved during the show and is more open to learn from others now. But he is still driven by Pride and domination and anger. While Guko is driven by fighting the strongest beings in the universe just for the challenge and the opportunity to learn. To put it in simple terms Goku is the open minded free flowing fighter while Vegeta is the hardheaded brawler that never gives up. Both exists in real day fighters and both can achieve success.
@@ancientphilosopher Another funny thing is, Vegeta fans claim that there are more of them than Goku fans. No, people idolize those who share their traits. Vegeta is a loud mouth, Goku is calm. Most Vegeta fans are noisy, most Goku fans don't brag that much. That's why Vegeta fans get the impression that they are more numerous compared to Goku fans. Shallow people who are easily impressed by badass speeches and bravado would prefer Vegeta. They're too shallow to understand why other people love Goku, or why Goku is always better than Vegeta.
After really spending some time thinking about it, Ultra Ego for Vegeta is very much akin to when Goku first pulled out Sign. Vegeta is clearly getting the hand of it more and more in a rapid pace, meaning his Ego is more in an infancy than Goku's Ultra Instinct currently is. Especially with how his limits have been broken, and just how much of a sheer prodigy Vegeta really is, this might be where Vegeta finally starts really taking a lead. With his limits broken by the Yardrat training, he's getting serious gains from his training, and it's very easy to say that Ultra Ego has been far more durable and impressive than Ultra Instinct, except when Goku got full on KO'd and then pulled out his giant form. Given Vegeta's sheer ability to just tank hits and keep going, he'd have easily won against Gas if it weren't for Gas' curse to always be the strongest. Ultra Ego is going to be absolutely nuts a powerup, especially when Vegeta really starts to get control of it. As of right now, he's shown no real stamina issues, but instead a limitation on the strength of his body taking damage. He's letting far too much hit him for the sake of gaining strength, which is drastically shortening his time in the form. Seeing as the pair clearly have the ability to heal damage, I reckon with more and more time Vegeta could have an endlessly growing boost from his Ego, much like the sheer growing mountain that Broly was. And that is the paragon of a Saiyan, to endlessly grow in potential and strength. As the Prince of Saiyans, and with his constant push for pride in himself and the saiyan race, Vegeta would fit having such a power.
Feel like this is the antithesis of nature vs nurture, Goku literally relies more on his Martial arts skills first then his nature second, and Vegeta relies more on his Nature first than his nurture because nurture is more pure when your young hence why it's tough for Vegeta to rely on an aspect so late in his life. It's easier for Goku because he was brought up mainly on his nurture and then he amplified it with his nature
For the majin vegeta vs dead goku fight i always thought vegetas advantage didn't come from strength but instead mindset. Vegeta seemed way more set on winning and beating Goku and Goku was the whole reason he turned majin, meanwhile Goku was just trying to stop vegeta and took the first opportunity to stop fighting
I mean it's pretty obvious that Goku mostly cared about not waking up Buu and trying not to hurt Vegetas feelings while convincing him that Buu was the bigger threat. If he was dead serious he could have turned SSJ3 any time, but he didn't, probably to not cut his time short, not giving Buu even more energy and/or not shatter Vegetas pride completely.
For a majority of their lives, Vegeta has been naturally stronger than Goku. By the time Goku finished his training with King Kai in the saiyan saga, Vegeta was still naturally stronger. Goku had to use the kaioken to keep up with Vegeta, and multiplied it 3 and 4 times to overpower Vegeta. Then Vegeta used his great ape form to overpower and sadly defeat Goku. It was when Goku finished his training to Namek that he finally surpassed Vegeta. Even receiving a zenkai boost from the fight with Recoome, Vegeta was still worried that Goku was a super saiyan. During the fight with Frieza, while Goku was recovering, Vegeta gained a lead on Goku, until Goku fully recovered. Goku was stronger than Vegeta, and the super saiyan transformation only widened the gap. Goku maintained that advantage until Vegeta became a super saiyan, where Vegeta was definitely on par with Goku and possibly stronger. Their training in the room of spirit and time definitely shows the edge that Goku has over Vegeta. They were around the same level of power with Vegeta being possibly stronger, but when they both trained in the room, Goku became significantly stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta even went in a second time, and he couldn't catch up to Goku. Goku kept this power advantage all the way through the Majin Buu arc. Vegeta briefly surpassed Goku at super saiyan 3, only for Goku to become a super saiyan god. Vegeta surpassed Goku again by training with Whis, but when Goku trained with Whis too, he managed to catch up. Super saiyan blue kaioken gave Goku an edge, and while Vegeta has super saiyan blue evolution to counter that, Goku also had ultra instinct omen and mastered ultra instinct. With ultra ego, Vegeta can still compete with Goku. For the most part, I think Goku and Vegeta are roughly equal. Their latest fight in dragonball super superhero had Vegeta win against Goku when they are both in base, but it remains to be seen who's stronger when both are going all out. They might be equal.
They aren't equal. Goku is stronger. Ultra Instict is an Angel/True God (Zeno, Grand Priest) state of being, whereas UE is based off God of Destruction techniques. Angels/Gods >>> Gods of Destruction. Ultra Ego's benefit is that damage makes the user stronger, but that's dependent on how much damage that user can take. If you read the manga, Vegeta used that mode 2 or 3 times and every time, he got knocked out before he could gain the strength advantage over his opponent. Goku's Ultra Instinct doesn't have that drawback, and as Whis stated, there are way more stages of UI beyond what Goku has already tapped into. Furthermore, Goku in UI did better against Granolah and Gas, than Vegeta did in any instance of UE. Even if Goku and Vegeta are now equal in base, between SSB Kaioken being greater than SSB, and UI > UE, it should be common sense that Goku still has the edge.
@@Saxandfifths actually, Vegeta did better against Granolah than Goku did when they both initially fought Granolah. Also, I said they might currently be equal if you consider that dragonball super superhero takes place in the latest part of the dragonball super timeline, after the Granolah arc.
If i recall correctly... Vegeta himself actually says he supposedly obtains a more advanced UE form prior to the fight with Granolah... but tapping into this form would mean he will "lose" himself in the process (similar to Goku losing his emotion)... so Vegeta purposely did not transform further
The Susano Goku uses is a callback to the Yardrat training vegeta does. When one of them increases in size using gigantification, and the next line is that they are able to do these things by strengthening the spirit. This is in chapter 52. So the reason that his is... hollow? Is that his spirit's strength hasn't reached that level yet. When TotallyNotMark was reviewing the moro arc he called that out. Pretty cool imo.
It wasnt actually gigantification, Vegeta only ASSUMED it was , but then his yardrat mentor actually explained the technique to only increasing the size of the user’s spirit😊
This rivalry might have something else to factor in: Goku is his strongest self when he has someone or something to protect or in line. Vegeta is at his strongest when he's fighting Goku. I think Vegeta knows this, so he understands how much more there would be to Goku's power if the threat was real, and that's why he acknowledges Goku as being the strongest of the two.
I love the symbolism between the two forms. Literally Ying an yang just like thier rivalry. One dodges one takes hits both getting more and more powerful
I think that the Susanoo is meant to be an upgrade to Instinct, in that it forms an area of perception that is beyond the user's body, meaning he can counter and react to enemies that haven't even been registered instinctually by the user's body. Basically an amped Instinct field.
@@jamesiitaylor7709 yes it was. They don’t actually grow it’s just a spirit image. Goku already had the training to do it he just was finally able to because of his training with merus
I wonder what’s gonna be next their next form they keep getting broken they definitely making saiyan reputation live up to its name the strongest warrior race
@@daedae2500 I hope they don’t get any news forms. These forms feel like they make their entire character growth arcs come full circle. Goku using his instincts to achieve a new form & twist it into something that’s useful to his impulsive emotional mature, and Vegeta having a form that encompasses his brash nature akin to the destroyers he got it from but making it into something that he can use to defend the Earth instead of destroy it. I can’t really think of a form that would make more sense for them to have narratively.
I think if Vegeta wants to achieve his own True Ultra Ego form I believe it's time for him to get his tail back. He is the pride of the Saiyans, and he can control he's Ape Form completely. Plus he can have something of similar size to match Goku's UI Susano'o. Plus the Ape form having a 10× multiplyer of his base and have Ultra Ego on top of that would be insane!
nah, he can just training with broly to achieve wrathful. Also, being bigger is established to actually be a bad thing, atleast when it comes to oozaru.
@@ProjektTaku exactly its why they would have to resort to ss4 to avoid looking bulky plus its would be a great way to show how vegeta has his own path
I like that in the Moro and Granolah arcs we see Vegeta learning from masters like Goku always did, first in Yardrat and then with Beerus. Despite the story's theme of "nature vs nurture" and how hard work will always triumph over supposed genetic superiority, Vegeta is very much a prodigy. Whenever Goku grows in power thanks to training and masters, Vegeta catches up in less time all by himself.
Really does brings back the statement that goku is the weakest sayin like raditz said when you actually look at vegeta and realizes he always managed to keep up without help from anyone up to recent arcs.
Man on his own achieved insane power while goku needed a boost and support to get to where he is now. Feels crazy when you realize goku's been treated as the big dog all because people with even greater power didn't decide to train or have an awaking like Frieza and Gohan
I think the idea behind the Susanoo is that as his body begins moving in its own, so too will his Ki in a way, and so like the ultimate progression of going from his body fighting without his mind is his spirit fighting without his body by manifesting this Susanoo
Seth, during Super Hero Vegeta is *actively* trying to control himself and his emotion better. Y'know. That ki training thing you talked about last video? He's trying to balance his ki and not be run by his violent warrior instincts.
To be fair, if you're being faced with the immediate threat of a destroyer god who will destroy the earth if he doesn't get the super saiyan god, you are not going to have time to train. If there's a way to get it right away then of course you are going to do that
@@younglove3362 pretty sure even at his full potential vegeta was still way stronger in that fight i remember watching it as a kid even now. kaio ken made goku stronger than vegeta though
@Young Love He's correct, without Kaioken multiplier Vegeta easily handles Goku in that fight. This is why u trust Seth's opinion on anime power scaling.
Really been loving the frequency of the uploads recently man please keep it up. I'm not sure if I'm speaking for myself but having your opinions to compare and contrast to my own is really nice you're probably one of the most well rounded people in the powerscaling community you deserve the flowers👏🏾
One of the things that I feel is often overlooked in the goku v vegeta rivalry is the fact that vegeta is a lot more emotional invested than goku. For goku it seems like he wants to win simply because he's very competitive while for vegeta it's a matter of pride. As we know in dragonball emotions are very powerful and can amp a fighter beyond their normal abilities, this is why I think even though vegeta appears to have around the same strength as goku and even having the "advantage" whenever they fight each other he's constantly saying how he has to catch up goku as if he knows he's still weaker
The issue with goku and vegeta fights is mostly because goku isn’t ever truly going out. He does it for fun and to honour vegetas request. Whereas vegeta is always very emotional in his fight against goku as that is the only reason he has trained mostly. If goku saw vegeta like he did in the saiyan saga then we would maybe see a true fight between them when they bring out their true strength
I would love a whole video on what was discussed in that granolah section. Upon rereading the granolah arc I love all the ideas that were planted and discussed in it. People say super is just recolors but this arc really tries to make their forms feel unique and something special.
Straight out they just say re colours but these new transformations are getting much more depth than all previous transformations which were just power ups pretty much
Goku will always be stronger than Vegeta. But their legendary rivalry is what makes this clash of increasing power continue to this day. That's why I love when they both talk and fight at each other.
with how Vegeta gets a new form (hopefully) I think Beerus or Whis will tell Vegeta how flawed his way to get stronger is, eventaully leading him to use his Saiyan pride as a way to grow. Just like how beerus used the thought of destruction to amp his power. Hopefully Vegeta gets black hair and a purple aura, would be cool
This is why I laughed so hard when Freiza bodied them both at the end of the Granolah arc. They went through all that training & discovery only to get creamed in probably the coolest entrances in DB, on par with Vegeta entering the fight with Android 19.
You didn't really talk about the Differences in Ego & Instinct, I feel like It's really dope how that form had Vegeta Fighting more like a Savage, taking hits but dishing them out stronger.
I feel like Seth goes ham around school season for a reason,it could be coincidence but the fact that I can play these in the background of class projects or homework really helps ,keep going brotha ❤️🔥❤️🔥
Goku is who we rooted for as boys, vegeta is the man we aspire to be as adults. Edit: Look everyone is free to disagree, we all have different outlooks/opinions. I'm not trying to dick ride, if you have a separate favorite character, all the power to you. I didn't think there'd be this much fighting about dragon ball characters. We all have faults just like any good character in fiction should. That includes vegeta.
I like the direction that we’re just taking especially in Dragon Ball super super hero he’s beginning to focus less on power level and more about the mentality behind fighting
From what I can tell: Goku is the student. Vegeta is the master. Goku learns from everybody, picks up techniques, utilizes his strength to the maximum, & honestly is very comparable to the Spirit Bomb. He’s an empty vessel which takes in all it can and unleashes it. Vegeta is the guy making his own techniques, developing his strength so he can focus on fighting how he feels is the best, rather than what is often the best course of action. Remember: Vegeta was the first one to realize Super Saiyan could be evolved up from just the base form, which led to Goku’s developing the Mastered form and Gohan’s SSJ2. Vegeta created the Big Bang attack (which to this day seems like an imperfect Hakai he just came up with decades before), Final Flash, Galick Gun, Final Detonation, the Spirit Saber (given he retained it from Vegeto, it seems his half was contributing to that), developed Spirit Fission into a new style which is far more diverse, taught himself Instant Transmission (as he specifically wouldn’t let them teach him it), and even perfected the Kiensan after seeing it used (highly imperfectly) only once at a distance, a feat only ever copied by Frieza who experienced it first hand.
I've noticed people being confused about Vegeta celebrating finally getting a win saying "but saiyan saga doe" and the way I see it in Vegeta's mind that was a loss for him as at the end of the day he was sent packing to space. He didn't kill anyone and his attack on earth ended in failure. I think it tracks because he's a driven and particular person if he wins he wants it to be a complete and undeniable victory.
I'm not sure if it was a translation mistake, but ultra ego was supposed to be getting stronger as Vegeta takes damage, I always felt that this meant that in a head to head fight, ultra instinct had the early advantage, but ultra ego would have the late advantage. Especially in a battle of attrition.
GOKU HAS NEVER BEAT VEGETA ALONE! All their fights seems to be tied or implied to never be serious or finished from what I know likely outside of some game Content or something. DragonBall has much more strategic fights than people likely give it credit for. Overall I think Goku likely takes it a few times but there have been times where Vegeta has surpassed. Now let me actually watch the vid.
U also forget goku actually could’ve stomped vegeta in the buu saga, but he didn’t even go into Ssj3 against majin vegeta because he didn’t wanna break his pride.
@@rlserik3751 Yes but there is context to that if he went SSJ3 He would have used up some of his time and while he might have maybe been able to stomp maybe he would have realize Vegeta might try something different, fight different or something else which the longer the battle would go on the worse it would end for the Saga and bringing up this I could bring up that Vegeta went to train with Whis and during sometime during that Training he possibly could have just gone back to Earth and stomped out Goku in a fight.
Did he literally just dismiss SSJ3 as an “unfair advantage”? Lol Vegeta spent the same amount of time training with Whis. Goku unlocked UI while Vegeta did not. Nothing was noted about this?
Vegeta was a born prodigy who understands fighting. Kakarot was a person who loved fighting and became very good at it. They’ll always be equal just because of Vegeta being natural at fighting
I can't wait for this to get animated. I am not reading manga before I watch the show ^^. I don't mind at all these basic spoilers of what's going to happen in the story overall in your videos. They just hype me up.
the moro arc part i’m confused about , vegeta was only winning against moro because he was sucking his fused energy out with forced spirit fission , before that actually started to take a effect he was doing as bad as goku if not worse
I think a couple of things that should be mentioned is that Majin Vegeta while having a more durable body, he also gets a power boost to put him on Goku's level in that fight. As for Moro arc Vegeta, the yardrat training gave him a technique that specifically HARD counters Moro. So he ends up doing better because he was making Moro weaker with each punch.
And Goku could have gone ssj3 any moment and it would be over for Vegeta. Vegeta got the durability and the power level boost and Goku got durability and ssj3 boost. Which is still pretty equal considering that Goku loses a lot more ki in ssj3. Goku did get the training from all his mentors but Vegeta was a saiyan and would've got a lot more training than Goku and was much stronger than kid Goku. Vegeta got clapped by perfect cell and Goku was almost equal to perfect cell in cell games. Both of them went to the time chamber and still Goku performed better. In super up untill ToP, Goku was the strongest fighter but after ultra ego, they both are equal in terms of power. Goku has got a lot more utility and better reaction time and speed but Vegeta has got a lot more durability and has really strong hakai blasts and gets stronger the weaker he gets. Goku was weaker than Vegeta in Og dragon ball, he was still weaker in saiyan saga, he was stronger than Vegeta in frieza saga, cell games and end of buu saga. He was also stronger in super till the ToP saga excluding the resurrection F movie. But after granola arc they are equal.
Hypothesis: Goku's susanoo could be symbolism of his consciousness spreading to the world around him. If you know what your enemy is gonna do instead of guessing in the dark, it's more effective that way.
Can’t say Goku has an un fair advantage with Kaioken amplifying his power if vegeta also had a way of amping his power also Goku has had the upper hand on vegeta since end of cell saga the fact that vegeta never trained with a master until super is really apparent in there fights > Goku held the edge in any equal battle due to his mastery of techniques he learned via training with masters, vegeta was able to catch up to goku after receiving training from an actual master
And to be clear instant transmission / kaioken/ and spirit bomb are really OP it’s why the villains after frieza arc can regenerate because no normal fighter could hope to defeat Goku using these techniques if they are even remotely close in power > one can amplify power with no specified limit > one can allow instantaneous movement with no way to trace where the user will appear and lastly if your really evil spirit bomb will finish you > if Goku and vegeta fought seriously at any point before super Goku would def kill vegeta in every arc except saiyan saga > just think about that cell saga fight where goku uses instant transmission kamehameha > GG vegeta
It looks to me that they’re setting up the z fighters to slowly head into the direction of “gt.” So goku,vegeta, gohan, and piccolo are eventually gonna get forms that resemble base form, and they might get some powers locked off when super finally ends in 12 yrs. Then I think they might remake GT and reintroduce SSJ4. As all these super power ups will eventually get absorbed into their base forms or sum.
I’m actually glad both of them got so strong together now they’re teacher is a God themselves and angel to how far they’ve come to vegeta trying to destroy earth to goku meeting and being raised by grandpa gohan they’re like brothers if u think about it vegeta the cool and confident brother while goku is little and funny one db will forever be one of best anime all times
It's obvious Goku is stronger. But Vegeta is just amazingly tough and so incredibly determined to improve himself. Also it seems like Vegeta's rage makes him more ferocious at times. So yeah of course Vegeta is powerful and also has a lot of growth as a character throughout the series
With the UI susanoo type thing, it makes me think that Goku is leaning towards using his body and Will (spirit) for his power, whereas vegeta is using his body and Mind for his. At least primarily. Since Vegeta has been seemingly focusing greatly on the Mind aspect of his strength in the Super Hero movie.
The Ultra divine water ass pull was one of the worst gifting of power in DB history. When it was just the fake sacred water that twist made a lot of sense. But the pace after King Piccolo showed up didn’t leave room for Goku to train that fast.
@@polketex5043 Frieza has way potential than everyone except Gohan, and its not even close to Gohan. And we haven't seen enough of Broly yet to really see how big his potential ability is. All we know about Broly so far is he has massive amounts of untapped power he doesn't know how to control and he adapts far quicker in a fight than anyone else does
@@xxwales15xx33 Frieza and Broly definitely have more potential than Gohan obviously we know strong Frieza has gotten in and gaps he's bridged in strength and Broly went from Base form Vegeta level to above SSB in a hour let Broly have training that Gohan has he'll improve way more obviously
@@polketex5043 Frieza's with 4 months of training was able to fight on par with SSB Goku Gohan trained for 2 days with Piccolo and forced SSB Goku (which SSB Goku at that point is WAY stronger than when he fought frieza at RF) to use kaio ken. That alone is a major difference. And Broly was he was just learning how to tap into his power he already had, nothing to do with potential. He was born already miles ahead of every other Sayian and basic training with a low level Sayian like his dad, he would never learn how to learn to control his monstrous power properly. He could have stupid amounts of potential but we don't know enough about him yet
@@xxwales15xx33 Broly would get stronger in most fights and overcome his opponent and Frieza training is amazing cause he one shotted 2 people who are stronger than gohan beast lol
Im leaning more towards the possibility that the true ultra instinct method will eventually seep itself into MUI possibly becoming TMUI, I say this sense MUI is still stronger/ better than his TUI form and it makes sense to make TMUI Goku’s possibly final form in the entire DB story, think about it Gohan has a new transformation now and back when Gohan turned ssj 2 that was when he was supposed to take over the story and become the new main character, I dont think it’s a coincidence that the DBS story is coming to an end and now Gohan finally gets a new transformation after he was shown not even being able to go super Saiyan or any other transformation at the beginning of DBS this whole time DBS has lowkey been a Gohan redemption story and it went right over most peoples head, Gohan went from not being able to transform to being able to keep up with ssj blue to becoming Gohan Beast and possibly being on MUI and EU level if not that then Omen level for sure and nothing lower than that
So we just gonna ignore vegeta being of royal decent thus having a significantly higher power level at birth. But it's unfair for goku to use kaioken meanwhile it's taken a massive toll on his body? Nah man Vegeta if anything had the unfair advantage in that fight.
Yeah.. theres a lot missing on seth explanation, example in the part when he says Vegata outdoing Goku's UI omen againts Moro by just training in yadrat mean while Goku is training with literal angel.... Lets not forget Vegeta learn a "literal technique" (spirit fision) that counters to Moro's ability, and still what happen.. Vegata cant finish Moro and still Goku able to finish it.
I know Naruto already did it, but I want the final final battle of the entire franchise to be a fight between Goku & Vegeta, & I kinda what Vegeta to win. I don’t know, I just think it would be cool for Vegeta to win the battle that book ends the entire franchise.
No matter what Vegeta is the bar and Goku will find a way to get over that bar. Goku has so many voices guiding him and people depending on him, he often loses track where the bar could even be meanwhile Vegeta won’t let most tell him how to get over that bar because he has so much clarity as to where it is, but no background of understanding of how to clear it. It’s sooooo goooood
Since when is Vegeta the bar? After the Saiyan Arc Goku was ahead of Vegeta throughout all of DBZ, and Vegeta was always chasing after Goku. The only time when Vegeta was really superior was when he first turned Super Saiyan. Other than that, they've either been equal or Goku's been ahead of him.
Saiyans are the ultimate warriors because when they fight, their bodies get stronger to compensate. At the end of the day Vegeta has the strongest most efficient Saiyan body being the most powerful born prince of Saiyans. I think we’ve been seeing Goku be equal in effectiveness, not raw strength, and we see that manifest in the way Vegeta is always able to “catch up” as soon as he sees the “secret”. To be fair, I don’t think Vegeta is capable of clearing most of the bars he sees by himself. Throughout DBZ and DBS, whether he likes it or not, Vegeta will be all “Goku stop fcking around, you have to be stronger than this” and Goku steps up and figures out how to do it. I think Vegeta NEEDS Goku to get stronger but their genetics/baseline/potential dictates that Vegeta will always be naturally superior no matter what. I don’t think Goku NEEDS Vegeta to get stronger, but the fact that Goku can see that he’s literally just built different has pushed him to heights not possible if Vegeta wasn’t as badass as he is.
@@marquistraylor1255 Long Breakdown of Goku & Vegeta's Rivalry Ahead: And yet that is not seen throughout DBZ. Goku is able to surpass Vegeta in the Frieza Arc once he first arrives on Namek due to a combination of nature and nurture, via Zenkais and Gravity Training, while Vegeta simply abuses his Saiyan biology. Thus, Goku surpasses him, and while Vegeta is nearly killed by Recoome, Goku is able to effortlessly bully Burter and Jeice, and even surpass Ginyu using the Kaioken. Later on, though Vegeta does surpass Goku and is able to compete with Frieza by abusing his nature further, he is beat down by Final Form Frieza and cries, realizing he is not the Super Saiyan. On the other hand, Goku is able to compete with Frieza and as a result of utilizing both his nature and nurture is able to transform into a Super Saiyan and do what Vegeta couldn't. Once Frieza returns, he is killed by Trunks, another Super Saiyan, and Goku returns to Yardrat stronger than ever, with Vegeta staying behind. At this point, Vegeta realizes that simply abusing his nature won't do and begins Gravity Training to catch up to Goku, eventually achieving Super Saiyan himself. (He himself admits that he was chasing after Goku.) This is the first time Vegeta has surpassed Goku, though he is still not able to beat C18 and his pride is wounded. Though he enters the Room of Spirit and Time his idea of training is still flawed, seeing as he sees power as the only thing that matters. Thus, he gets stronger, though he is not able to truly master Super Saiyan. That discovery is made by Goku who still understand training better than Vegeta, and is able to compete with Cell, who embarrassed earlier in the Arc. After Goku dies, Vegeta admits that he has been beaten in every way by Son, and trains for another 7 years by himself, long awaiting their rematch. Once Goku returns to Earth, we find out that he is still stronger than Vegeta even in Super Saiyan 2, and Vegeta has to give up his body and mind to Babidi to reach Goku. However, we find out that Goku was holding back against Vegeta as he didn't use Super Saiyan 3, and Vegeta truly stood no chance of beating Goku this whole time. He himself realizes why Goku is so ahead of him in the Kid Buu fight, where he admits that Goku is #1. In Super, Goku gets the Super Saiyan God ritual done and once again gets way ahead of Vegeta. Vegeta goes to train with Whis but Goku is quickly able to catch up. In the Anime, Goku remains ahead of Vegeta due to combining the Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue, in the Manga they remain on par with each other until Goku first enters UI. In the Moro Arc, Goku masters UI and is way ahead of Vegeta, who then has to learn Ultra Ego to compete. However, after Goku successfully achieves True Ultra Instinct, he is able to outperform Vegeta in the fight against Gas. Vegeta has consistently been the underdog in this rivalry since he lost his first fight.
@@ZeroNegsFiction first of all, appreciate the write up bro 🤞 that’s what I think makes the shows so compelling. I do still think that Vegeta is the bar personally, but I see where you’re coming from. From everything we’ve seen Goku is the TRUE bar and even Vegeta himself has always known this. It’s like nature vs nurture in a sense, it’s tooo goood
Well in the Buu saga Majin Vegeta was fighting with the intent to kill Goku.. keep in mind while Goku enjoy the fight with Vegeta he's did not really want to fight Vegeta under those circumstances and was disappointed in Vegeta in letting Babadi briefly control him to get stronger.
@@sipzie7395 na he's right. Goku didn't even want that fight. The fate of the world was hanging by a thread, and that's when Vegeta wants to have that fight??? Goku had no motivation to go all out. He had to conserve energy for the fight with Buu. But of course people who don't think it through will just assume Vegeta was winning that fight
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
Claim your FREE Styanax here by Sep 21st: wrfr.me/Sty-SethTheProgrammer | Thanks to Warframe and Digital Extremes for sponsoring this video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I forgot COPY VEGETA!!! But it isn't too different than the manga fight. So no big deal.
money.
SETH PLAYS WARFRAME??????
Sasuke >
Xeno Goku Scale When?
Goku slams opm in base
For me it's always been like this:
Vegeta definitely won their first fight and then they always were about equal,one surpassing the other at different points. Now they are almost equal with Goku maybe having the edge techniquewise
Goku won, vegeta just went monkey he probably would of died if he didnt
@@temmieKAT to be fair goku had the the kaioken and the moon was destroyed so vegeta needed to a technique to summon a temporary one called the power ball
@@temmieKAT There’s heavy implications that Vegeta would have actually won if he DIDN’T freak out about the Kaioken and go great ape. Or at least have enough to pummel a crippled Goku afterwards
@@temmieKAT How'd he win? Wasn't he grounded and Killing or Yajiribe sliced Vegeta's tail?
@@austin31697
I only say that because goku has plot armour since vegeta was a villain, I was mainly kidding
I feel the reason why it seems Goku “unfairly” gets so much more help and training is merely because of his demeanor. He’s humble, patient, affable…I’d probably be more inclined to help him over an egotistical hot head. I feel that Vegeta is, and always will be, his own worst enemy in this regard.
W take
@@ZenMasterScr3wy Couldn't have said it any better myself. Even for how far he has come he still do the same b.s. in every fight. The final flash on Jiren laughing afterwards. He probably could have killed moro in the beginning but wanted to flex.
I mean, he bumped his head and that changed his mental state as a baby. If you flip the roles, and that happens to Vegeta, Vegeta gets the same treatment. Not only that but he would be more poweful than Goku to the point that Goku wouldn’t be able to really catch up.
@@sunshinekid7799 Goku was a late bloomer tho, his potential later turned out to be greater than Vegeta's
Not just that, one of the major advantages Vegeta always had over Goku throughout the entire series is his blood and talent. Guys is the king of all Saiyans ffs. Goku is just the son of a foot soldier. But he somehow is always one step ahead of Vegeta's pure blood and talent and potential. Thats only because Goku puts in the hard work and busts his ass more than Vegeta ever does. Granted Goku did have tons of master but if you wanted to make this debate truly "fair" then Goku should also receive the status of prince of all saiyans and have the talent and potentials just like Vegeta has.
I love the rivalry. It’s classic. It’s one of the reasons Vegeta is my favorite character. He grows so much throughout the series.
He should've shown more love towards his own son during the Android Saga, not just when he died at Cell's hands.
@@blueoak5262 Based on Vegeta's past and upbringing, showing more love to Trunks wouldn't have made much sense and would also leave less chance for his character growth as a lack of love is kind of his thing. It's what makes him the anti-hero in the first place.
@@blueoak5262 He realized his mistake which is why he is a better father to the Trunks of his timeline.
@@blueoak5262 saiyans are not suppose to show emotion to their male offsprings
I wonder why Vegeta didn't try to take over Earth when Goku was away.
Power scaling aside, it's actually great that they gave them powerups that align with their personalities. It goes beyond "who can make the bigger laser beam" and becomes more of a self discovery and "who can master themselves more" type of deal. I know it's still dragon ball to its core but yeah that minor detail is still refreshing.
well said
vegetas ultimate form then technically should be something more calm shouldnt it? that would mean that he had finally overcome his pride and EGO. a calm calculated vegeta at the height of his power would be terrifying. kind of like what he hints at in the super hero movie to goku about how jiren is always calm
i just thought of someting, i think Vegeta's final form will be called King Form, he will finally become self-actualized and reach his ultimate potential....the Prince will become the King
@@babyfood9537vegeta is all pride so ego in a sense is just him being prideful at his base level
@@babyfood9537 i don’t think he’d wanna call himself king tho he respects and really loves his dad king vegeta too much to symbolically take over throne as king that’s why he has always called himself price vegeta, prince of all saiyans. i think ultra ego is the perfect “final form” for him
I always had Vegeta's back
Him being second to Goku and still not giving up and even using Goku as an ispiration to climb bigger heights is beyond compelling
Bro everyone stay leaving behind. The simple fact from the fountain of youth releasing Goku full potential. And Vegeta got his decades later. Goku was able to set a high limit cause he already at the limit. Vegeta has to break thou his limit then majin Vegeta came thou and things changed cause Vegeta was able to break thou easier. He climbed faster and stronger than Goku without any help just straight training himself.. that speak Volumes
@@robertpineda577sure it would speak for himself expect Vegeta was born stronger,already had more training from his Sayian race,and was first seen stronger than goku lmaooo. So no the volume is vegeta fumbled the power lead and is playing catch up
Finally a mature, unbiased comment ❤❤❤
@@VersaVids87be fr
@@kvngcjgaming5559L take
The voice Seth makes for ADs is simply too funny.
Dude manages to make one of the most convincing promotions while also sounding sarcastic. Amazing.
warframe isn't that bad
He manages to sound genuine and sarcastic at the same time, it is a very entertaining talent
@@AngelNearDestruction exactly
@@AJ-fn3ug it used to be better imo
@@rarebeeph1783 yeah, like 2015-2017 warframe was fire
The rivalry would be a lot better if the writers allowed vegeta to be stronger. Every time vegeta surpasses goku in the same arc goku just gets stronger(ever since the frieza arc). Vegeta is not allowed to be the strongest for too long since he’s not the main character
Indeed, it sucks.
That's the thing. It's not that he isn't allowed his core reason to be stronger is goku. So Goku has to be stronger in order for vegeta to push himself. Remember how vegeta secluded himself in a room months and months when Goku died. That's his character his pride won't let Goku surpass him. And that's his main motivation now, him having family and all he has found more reasons. but incarnation of victory in his mind is goku. Which is a blessing in disguise. Because Goku keeps pushing his limits resulting in vegeta to do the same.
Toriyama probably has "Make sure Vegeta never wins" on his will
@@heaven.3031 What this guy said
Not really the dynamic doesn't really work as well if Goku is behind Vegeta as Goku doesn't really care in the same way Vegeta does. The best route is where its competitive which super has done for the most part.
In my opinion I think it is much easier for vegeta to use Ultra ego to a higher degree of efficiency because it technically isn’t an angelic technique, it’s more of a power up using destructive energy. I think it’s harder for Goku to master ultra instinct to its full potential because his primal saiyan fighting instincts conflict with the calm and thoughtless nature of UI. So personally, I think vegeta is much more reliable as a fighter and much more consistent because of how much better UE suits him especially, but Goku has a higher potential with Ultra Instinct.
Great analysis. Love this part of the dbz community!
Ultra Instinct is an ability angels effortlessly. I think Whis states this is a power Gods of Destruction strive to achieve. None has achieved it yet. This ties in with the need to have a calm mind and high control on self. The whole shtick of a God of Destruction is being destructive and violent in their acts.
and that why tui is so good
I honestly feel like it jus has to do with saiyans in universe 7 they were rash and killers mostly because of frieza. I feel like UI and a saiyan honestly work hand in hand because saiyans learn as the battle goes on and get stronger as well. The only issue with saiyans is they were never taught to control emotions and have a calm mind goku was by roshi and even in the TOP whis and beerus said that roshi was in a similar state of UI but hes a human so his limits are clear. If roshi was a saiyan he would proly have mastered ultra instinct already lol
Agreed.
The difference is that Goku seeks help and is willing to learn from others, always the student mindset. While Vegeta rarely does this cuse of his pride and don’t want to learn from others. It’s kinda the point to of the show if you read between the lines that you can come far on your own but with support and help from others you can go even further.
vegeta got rid of that mindset when he first asked whis to train him, he realized he couldnt get on that level of power once he saw Super sayian god
It’s not that he doesn’t want to learn from others. I know that Vegeta fans get this, it’s that he wants to achieve great power by himself. Goku cheats his way to greater power (kaioken x20 for example) while Vegeta always gets there or surpasses him by his own strength. Which, to me, is more admirable. Vegeta could’ve stolen kaioken, instant transmission, kamehameha, even tried the ritual for ssg, but his pride is getting there on his own. Might take longer, but Vegeta always reaches a new pinnacle. He even discovered and told Goku that going beyond Super Saiyan was possible. He might always be no. 2 due to plot (Goku will always be the main character & win), but for me, he’ll always be no. 1.
@@ancientphilosopher Vegeta has Evolved during the show and is more open to learn from others now. But he is still driven by Pride and domination and anger. While Guko is driven by fighting the strongest beings in the universe just for the challenge and the opportunity to learn. To put it in simple terms Goku is the open minded free flowing fighter while Vegeta is the hardheaded brawler that never gives up. Both exists in real day fighters and both can achieve success.
@@ancientphilosopher Another funny thing is, Vegeta fans claim that there are more of them than Goku fans. No, people idolize those who share their traits. Vegeta is a loud mouth, Goku is calm. Most Vegeta fans are noisy, most Goku fans don't brag that much. That's why Vegeta fans get the impression that they are more numerous compared to Goku fans. Shallow people who are easily impressed by badass speeches and bravado would prefer Vegeta. They're too shallow to understand why other people love Goku, or why Goku is always better than Vegeta.
@@nhatvu8800 all talk, no show. You’re weak until you prove otherwise. Goku has more fans because Goku is dumb.
After really spending some time thinking about it, Ultra Ego for Vegeta is very much akin to when Goku first pulled out Sign. Vegeta is clearly getting the hand of it more and more in a rapid pace, meaning his Ego is more in an infancy than Goku's Ultra Instinct currently is. Especially with how his limits have been broken, and just how much of a sheer prodigy Vegeta really is, this might be where Vegeta finally starts really taking a lead. With his limits broken by the Yardrat training, he's getting serious gains from his training, and it's very easy to say that Ultra Ego has been far more durable and impressive than Ultra Instinct, except when Goku got full on KO'd and then pulled out his giant form. Given Vegeta's sheer ability to just tank hits and keep going, he'd have easily won against Gas if it weren't for Gas' curse to always be the strongest. Ultra Ego is going to be absolutely nuts a powerup, especially when Vegeta really starts to get control of it. As of right now, he's shown no real stamina issues, but instead a limitation on the strength of his body taking damage. He's letting far too much hit him for the sake of gaining strength, which is drastically shortening his time in the form. Seeing as the pair clearly have the ability to heal damage, I reckon with more and more time Vegeta could have an endlessly growing boost from his Ego, much like the sheer growing mountain that Broly was. And that is the paragon of a Saiyan, to endlessly grow in potential and strength. As the Prince of Saiyans, and with his constant push for pride in himself and the saiyan race, Vegeta would fit having such a power.
also the fact that his unmastered ultra ego was keeping up with goku's silver-haired and true ultra instincts
Yah everyone biased!
Feel like this is the antithesis of nature vs nurture, Goku literally relies more on his Martial arts skills first then his nature second, and Vegeta relies more on his Nature first than his nurture because nurture is more pure when your young hence why it's tough for Vegeta to rely on an aspect so late in his life. It's easier for Goku because he was brought up mainly on his nurture and then he amplified it with his nature
Some how this got switched in new movie
@@shinobimsh5687 shits fucked up, they messed that up
Ultra ego does sound like reliance in his pride as a saiyan. His nature. Good point.
The Universe 6 tournament was a good example, the Hit fight specifically. Goku definitely relies on his martial arts more.
Past 3-4 videos Seth has been putting out makes me feel like I'm back in pre 2020 era
Good times 😔
Right?
It's cuz he wants to hit that 1 million subscribers
@@nobodyname4742 I respect the grind lol
@@nobodyname4742 I would too 😂
This man said pre 2020 era wtf 💀
For the majin vegeta vs dead goku fight i always thought vegetas advantage didn't come from strength but instead mindset. Vegeta seemed way more set on winning and beating Goku and Goku was the whole reason he turned majin, meanwhile Goku was just trying to stop vegeta and took the first opportunity to stop fighting
Vegeta had an advantage that was ONLY because Goku was preserving his time left
I mean it's pretty obvious that Goku mostly cared about not waking up Buu and trying not to hurt Vegetas feelings while convincing him that Buu was the bigger threat. If he was dead serious he could have turned SSJ3 any time, but he didn't, probably to not cut his time short, not giving Buu even more energy and/or not shatter Vegetas pride completely.
Goku was trying to get through to his friend not defeat him.
He went majin to save trunks and bulma, not because of goku.
That was the bait.
Goku can’t beat vegeta cuz vegeta is a better fighter than him
For a majority of their lives, Vegeta has been naturally stronger than Goku. By the time Goku finished his training with King Kai in the saiyan saga, Vegeta was still naturally stronger. Goku had to use the kaioken to keep up with Vegeta, and multiplied it 3 and 4 times to overpower Vegeta. Then Vegeta used his great ape form to overpower and sadly defeat Goku. It was when Goku finished his training to Namek that he finally surpassed Vegeta. Even receiving a zenkai boost from the fight with Recoome, Vegeta was still worried that Goku was a super saiyan. During the fight with Frieza, while Goku was recovering, Vegeta gained a lead on Goku, until Goku fully recovered. Goku was stronger than Vegeta, and the super saiyan transformation only widened the gap. Goku maintained that advantage until Vegeta became a super saiyan, where Vegeta was definitely on par with Goku and possibly stronger. Their training in the room of spirit and time definitely shows the edge that Goku has over Vegeta. They were around the same level of power with Vegeta being possibly stronger, but when they both trained in the room, Goku became significantly stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta even went in a second time, and he couldn't catch up to Goku. Goku kept this power advantage all the way through the Majin Buu arc. Vegeta briefly surpassed Goku at super saiyan 3, only for Goku to become a super saiyan god. Vegeta surpassed Goku again by training with Whis, but when Goku trained with Whis too, he managed to catch up. Super saiyan blue kaioken gave Goku an edge, and while Vegeta has super saiyan blue evolution to counter that, Goku also had ultra instinct omen and mastered ultra instinct. With ultra ego, Vegeta can still compete with Goku. For the most part, I think Goku and Vegeta are roughly equal. Their latest fight in dragonball super superhero had Vegeta win against Goku when they are both in base, but it remains to be seen who's stronger when both are going all out. They might be equal.
At the star of dragon Ball goku was stronger in their base
They aren't equal. Goku is stronger. Ultra Instict is an Angel/True God (Zeno, Grand Priest) state of being, whereas UE is based off God of Destruction techniques. Angels/Gods >>> Gods of Destruction. Ultra Ego's benefit is that damage makes the user stronger, but that's dependent on how much damage that user can take. If you read the manga, Vegeta used that mode 2 or 3 times and every time, he got knocked out before he could gain the strength advantage over his opponent.
Goku's Ultra Instinct doesn't have that drawback, and as Whis stated, there are way more stages of UI beyond what Goku has already tapped into. Furthermore, Goku in UI did better against Granolah and Gas, than Vegeta did in any instance of UE. Even if Goku and Vegeta are now equal in base, between SSB Kaioken being greater than SSB, and UI > UE, it should be common sense that Goku still has the edge.
@@Saxandfifths actually, Vegeta did better against Granolah than Goku did when they both initially fought Granolah. Also, I said they might currently be equal if you consider that dragonball super superhero takes place in the latest part of the dragonball super timeline, after the Granolah arc.
@@Saxandfifths that's a straight up lie goku did worse with his form against gas than vegeta did with his form
@@Saxandfifths vegeta literally had a better showing against fight then Goku did against gas
If i recall correctly... Vegeta himself actually says he supposedly obtains a more advanced UE form prior to the fight with Granolah... but tapping into this form would mean he will "lose" himself in the process (similar to Goku losing his emotion)... so Vegeta purposely did not transform further
The Susano Goku uses is a callback to the Yardrat training vegeta does. When one of them increases in size using gigantification, and the next line is that they are able to do these things by strengthening the spirit. This is in chapter 52. So the reason that his is... hollow? Is that his spirit's strength hasn't reached that level yet. When TotallyNotMark was reviewing the moro arc he called that out. Pretty cool imo.
This comment right here
This makes sense
And of dragonball, I think it happened when Goku fought piccolo
It wasnt actually gigantification, Vegeta only ASSUMED it was , but then his yardrat mentor actually explained the technique to only increasing the size of the user’s spirit😊
@@RindouHasRan ah, I cannot escape the meme that dragon ball fans can't read. God damnit. Thanks for pointing that out
This rivalry might have something else to factor in: Goku is his strongest self when he has someone or something to protect or in line. Vegeta is at his strongest when he's fighting Goku. I think Vegeta knows this, so he understands how much more there would be to Goku's power if the threat was real, and that's why he acknowledges Goku as being the strongest of the two.
We gotta get this man to 1 million by the end of this year, he’s been killing it 💪
he's gonna have to upload like this more often
Only 122k more to go😂
Oh shit just saw,thought he was already at 1M.
Bro has been stuck at 800k for 2yrs now🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I’m not hating, gotta included ish like this now sadly.
@@alionzaf1778 he was on 700k for a while but he only hit 800k around new years
I love the symbolism between the two forms. Literally Ying an yang just like thier rivalry. One dodges one takes hits both getting more and more powerful
I think that the Susanoo is meant to be an upgrade to Instinct, in that it forms an area of perception that is beyond the user's body, meaning he can counter and react to enemies that haven't even been registered instinctually by the user's body. Basically an amped Instinct field.
……. This is just wrong.
@@Konstant uhm care to explain why?
@@jamesiitaylor7709 because literally that was a yardrat technique. It has nothing to do with UI.
@Konstant the yadrat technique was growing yourself in size not summoning a giant ki avatar
@@jamesiitaylor7709 yes it was. They don’t actually grow it’s just a spirit image. Goku already had the training to do it he just was finally able to because of his training with merus
These two might be closer than ever right now, especially since they both have their own “unique” powerful forms.
Facts
I wonder what’s gonna be next their next form they keep getting broken they definitely making saiyan reputation live up to its name the strongest warrior race
W profile pic
@@daedae2500 I hope they don’t get any news forms. These forms feel like they make their entire character growth arcs come full circle. Goku using his instincts to achieve a new form & twist it into something that’s useful to his impulsive emotional mature, and Vegeta having a form that encompasses his brash nature akin to the destroyers he got it from but making it into something that he can use to defend the Earth instead of destroy it. I can’t really think of a form that would make more sense for them to have narratively.
Closest they ever were was their ssj2 fight in the buu arc
I think if Vegeta wants to achieve his own True Ultra Ego form I believe it's time for him to get his tail back.
He is the pride of the Saiyans, and he can control he's Ape Form completely.
Plus he can have something of similar size to match Goku's UI Susano'o.
Plus the Ape form having a 10× multiplyer of his base and have Ultra Ego on top of that would be insane!
The only way this wouldn't be big n bulky is if they caved n used ss4
@@charlesredd9619 no.
They could just use wrathful.
nah, he can just training with broly to achieve wrathful.
Also, being bigger is established to actually be a bad thing, atleast when it comes to oozaru.
I wish so desperately that they bring his tail but they really don’t want to. Where’s the Sayan Pride 🥲
@@ProjektTaku exactly its why they would have to resort to ss4 to avoid looking bulky plus its would be a great way to show how vegeta has his own path
I like that in the Moro and Granolah arcs we see Vegeta learning from masters like Goku always did, first in Yardrat and then with Beerus.
Despite the story's theme of "nature vs nurture" and how hard work will always triumph over supposed genetic superiority, Vegeta is very much a prodigy. Whenever Goku grows in power thanks to training and masters, Vegeta catches up in less time all by himself.
Really does brings back the statement that goku is the weakest sayin like raditz said when you actually look at vegeta and realizes he always managed to keep up without help from anyone up to recent arcs.
Man on his own achieved insane power while goku needed a boost and support to get to where he is now. Feels crazy when you realize goku's been treated as the big dog all because people with even greater power didn't decide to train or have an awaking like Frieza and Gohan
Um, unless you include GT, where vegeta had to cheat to achieve SSJ 4...🤣🤣
@@mrsunnypolo1679 well you know what they say, the power of friendship?
@@perseus6024 That's non-canon.
I think the idea behind the Susanoo is that as his body begins moving in its own, so too will his Ki in a way, and so like the ultimate progression of going from his body fighting without his mind is his spirit fighting without his body by manifesting this Susanoo
Issue with vegetas fighting style is it’s 100% offensive and when he has to defend he tends to stiff up
Bro the past week or two you’ve been killing it with these DB videos
Seth, during Super Hero Vegeta is *actively* trying to control himself and his emotion better. Y'know. That ki training thing you talked about last video? He's trying to balance his ki and not be run by his violent warrior instincts.
BTW this guy is a scammer
I love how vegeta achieved god power level by just training unlike goku. He truly is the prince of all saiyans.
That’s plot. Originally it was, that was the only way you could obtain ssg. Then he gets ssg afterwards.
what
plot goofy
goku was training for it before just didn’t achieve it until the tournament
To be fair, if you're being faced with the immediate threat of a destroyer god who will destroy the earth if he doesn't get the super saiyan god, you are not going to have time to train. If there's a way to get it right away then of course you are going to do that
Seth you're the man!
Nobody in the anime community delivers unbiased stats like you bro.
Kudos 100%
He said Goku was 8,000 while Vegeta was 18,000. Goku didn't power up to his full potential. If these were true, Vegeta would have ended him easily.
@@younglove3362 pretty sure even at his full potential vegeta was still way stronger in that fight i remember watching it as a kid even now. kaio ken made goku stronger than vegeta though
Aged... Sadly 😔
@Young Love He's correct, without Kaioken multiplier Vegeta easily handles Goku in that fight.
This is why u trust Seth's opinion on anime power scaling.
@@jaybomb5022 imma also trust his opinions on dating minors
"He bullies the PI- out of Jiren"
I don't know why, but that being cut off was hilarious.
Didn't ask Didn't care Pessidog detected opinion rejected
@@rais6036 cringe😬
@@ggchad3739 your profile is cringe
@@rais6036 cool
Really been loving the frequency of the uploads recently man please keep it up. I'm not sure if I'm speaking for myself but having your opinions to compare and contrast to my own is really nice you're probably one of the most well rounded people in the powerscaling community you deserve the flowers👏🏾
Seth is taking advantage of Super Hero to do so many Dragon Ball Theory or new power scaling videos. I LOVE IT! Genius play!
One of the things that I feel is often overlooked in the goku v vegeta rivalry is the fact that vegeta is a lot more emotional invested than goku. For goku it seems like he wants to win simply because he's very competitive while for vegeta it's a matter of pride. As we know in dragonball emotions are very powerful and can amp a fighter beyond their normal abilities, this is why I think even though vegeta appears to have around the same strength as goku and even having the "advantage" whenever they fight each other he's constantly saying how he has to catch up goku as if he knows he's still weaker
I wouldn’t say Goku going out of his way to be taught by masters is an unfair advantage.
The issue with goku and vegeta fights is mostly because goku isn’t ever truly going out. He does it for fun and to honour vegetas request. Whereas vegeta is always very emotional in his fight against goku as that is the only reason he has trained mostly. If goku saw vegeta like he did in the saiyan saga then we would maybe see a true fight between them when they bring out their true strength
I would love a whole video on what was discussed in that granolah section. Upon rereading the granolah arc I love all the ideas that were planted and discussed in it. People say super is just recolors but this arc really tries to make their forms feel unique and something special.
Straight out they just say re colours but these new transformations are getting much more depth than all previous transformations which were just power ups pretty much
@@Harrytc7 Vegeta beat Goku in their 1st fight.
@@Harrytc7 the point of a transformation was to always be different
Haven’t seen Seth on a roll like this in a fat min. Gotta love it!
Goku will always be stronger than Vegeta. But their legendary rivalry is what makes this clash of increasing power continue to this day. That's why I love when they both talk and fight at each other.
with how Vegeta gets a new form (hopefully) I think Beerus or Whis will tell Vegeta how flawed his way to get stronger is, eventaully leading him to use his Saiyan pride as a way to grow. Just like how beerus used the thought of destruction to amp his power. Hopefully Vegeta gets black hair and a purple aura, would be cool
I feel like Seth got a black frieza level amp the way he be putting out these videos
lol and we are loving it
dude honestly he deserves it's great content
We need a Black Seth powerscaling video
@@athyderboss 🤣🤣
The Most iconic Duo in Anime Goku and Vegeta
Agreed. It's iconic
Boring, GT and first 2 sagas of DBS was trash. We true fans of DB want Team Z back, not just duo show...
I’m taking Naruto and Sasuke their story was deeper
I am very much enjoying Seth's frequent uploads on this channel.
Anyone else?
This is why I laughed so hard when Freiza bodied them both at the end of the Granolah arc. They went through all that training & discovery only to get creamed in probably the coolest entrances in DB, on par with Vegeta entering the fight with Android 19.
Loving these back to back videos. Seth! Keep that RUclips money comin'!
Seth discovered that if he just uploads more videos like this that don’t involve intense research or scripting, he can make more money (keep doing it)
He found a easier way to make money in livestreaming or twitch, someone gave him 2k just cause.
You didn't really talk about the Differences in Ego & Instinct, I feel like It's really dope how that form had Vegeta Fighting more like a Savage, taking hits but dishing them out stronger.
I feel like Seth goes ham around school season for a reason,it could be coincidence but the fact that I can play these in the background of class projects or homework really helps ,keep going brotha ❤️🔥❤️🔥
Goku is who we rooted for as boys, vegeta is the man we aspire to be as adults.
Edit: Look everyone is free to disagree, we all have different outlooks/opinions. I'm not trying to dick ride, if you have a separate favorite character, all the power to you. I didn't think there'd be this much fighting about dragon ball characters. We all have faults just like any good character in fiction should. That includes vegeta.
The meat riding is insane
@@jeweerly2319 I don't care how powerful they are, I was speaking to their character.
Let's just relax eh?
In your opinion maybe, goku is still better person in my opinion 😁
@@Manoj-wg5zp Thats fine.
nah bro goku mindset trumps vegeta mindset
I like the direction that we’re just taking especially in Dragon Ball super super hero he’s beginning to focus less on power level and more about the mentality behind fighting
Definitely Goku but Vegeta has never lost to Goku whenever they've fought... Food for thought.
I think you’d prob have to put something on the line for Goku to take these seriously, whis even points it out multiple times.
Vegeta has beaten him all times
@@fackyoutube8452 so nothing was on the line when vegeta beat him in Saiyan saga?
@@Darth-Shadow are u delusional or just can't see how vegeta was stronger than him in saiyan saga
I'd say...kill Chi Chi and Goten and for Vegeta,kill Bulla(his daughter) and put them in a box together...Vegeta comes out on top hands down.
Seth always providing the best DB videos
Man these edits definitely makes listening to this information really enjoyable! Props to Seth and his editor ✍️
What we all been waiting for🔥, thank you
From what I can tell:
Goku is the student.
Vegeta is the master.
Goku learns from everybody, picks up techniques, utilizes his strength to the maximum, & honestly is very comparable to the Spirit Bomb. He’s an empty vessel which takes in all it can and unleashes it.
Vegeta is the guy making his own techniques, developing his strength so he can focus on fighting how he feels is the best, rather than what is often the best course of action.
Remember: Vegeta was the first one to realize Super Saiyan could be evolved up from just the base form, which led to Goku’s developing the Mastered form and Gohan’s SSJ2. Vegeta created the Big Bang attack (which to this day seems like an imperfect Hakai he just came up with decades before), Final Flash, Galick Gun, Final Detonation, the Spirit Saber (given he retained it from Vegeto, it seems his half was contributing to that), developed Spirit Fission into a new style which is far more diverse, taught himself Instant Transmission (as he specifically wouldn’t let them teach him it), and even perfected the Kiensan after seeing it used (highly imperfectly) only once at a distance, a feat only ever copied by Frieza who experienced it first hand.
No
i feel like you haven’t watched og dragon ball
@@JT-vh7yh
I’m currently in the red ribbon army saga. And I stand by my statements.
In super hero, Vegeta is literally trying to learn how to fight differently as stated early in the movie. To become more efficient.
I've noticed people being confused about Vegeta celebrating finally getting a win saying "but saiyan saga doe" and the way I see it in Vegeta's mind that was a loss for him as at the end of the day he was sent packing to space. He didn't kill anyone and his attack on earth ended in failure. I think it tracks because he's a driven and particular person if he wins he wants it to be a complete and undeniable victory.
Seth entered a new era with these vids 🔥
Yo respond to him bro
Bros tryna scam you in the original channel 🤣🤣
Going hard this month I see u gang really appreciate it 🙏🏿💪🏿
I'm not sure if it was a translation mistake, but ultra ego was supposed to be getting stronger as Vegeta takes damage, I always felt that this meant that in a head to head fight, ultra instinct had the early advantage, but ultra ego would have the late advantage. Especially in a battle of attrition.
GOKU HAS NEVER BEAT VEGETA ALONE!
All their fights seems to be tied or implied to never be serious or finished from what I know likely outside of some game Content or something.
DragonBall has much more strategic fights than people likely give it credit for.
Overall I think Goku likely takes it a few times but there have been times where Vegeta has surpassed.
Now let me actually watch the vid.
He was always stronger tho he had to go great ape with is pretty pussy if I ask me and then in the Majin fight he snuck goku
U also forget goku actually could’ve stomped vegeta in the buu saga, but he didn’t even go into Ssj3 against majin vegeta because he didn’t wanna break his pride.
@@rlserik3751 Yes but there is context to that if he went SSJ3 He would have used up some of his time and while he might have maybe been able to stomp maybe he would have realize Vegeta might try something different, fight different or something else which the longer the battle would go on the worse it would end for the Saga and bringing up this I could bring up that Vegeta went to train with Whis and during sometime during that Training he possibly could have just gone back to Earth and stomped out Goku in a fight.
@@rlserik3751 so when both are at ss2 vegeta was superior lol
@@Thai.H So superior he had to resort to a power up from Babidi and he still had to sucker punch Goku LMAO.
One thing I do love about the DBS manga is the sorta character consistency and the more use of techniques
Did he literally just dismiss SSJ3 as an “unfair advantage”? Lol
Vegeta spent the same amount of time training with Whis. Goku unlocked UI while Vegeta did not. Nothing was noted about this?
Not similar in any conceivable way tbh
@@sipzie7395 what isn’t similar?
vegeta actually spent more time training with whis. it's how he caught up to goku's god amp from battle of gods.
This is the first time i’ve seen a warframe sponsorship and i’m speechless, thank you for sponsoring my favorite game!
Awesome to see how much Dragonball content you put out again recently.
You & Geekdom101 are pretty much the go-to's for top tier high qaulity anime/comic culture and content
The saiyan scholar>>
Vegeta was a born prodigy who understands fighting. Kakarot was a person who loved fighting and became very good at it. They’ll always be equal just because of Vegeta being natural at fighting
Kakarot is a prodigy in his own right tho but I agree
@@realloud999 For sure but it’s not natural like Vegeta. Goku had to learn, Vegeta was just up there from birth
@@PrinxeGaming_ he has the vegeta bloodline, his bloodline is royalty for a reason. Broly is an outlier in this regard.
@@realloud999 exactly that’d be like who’s winning King Vegeta or Bardock. King Vegeta would win
@@PrinxeGaming_ well yeah, but his fight with gas...idk man! He might actually have a chance
Back to Back to Back Bangers🔥🔥🔥
dude, i was surprised how you sold your sponsor. the way you said MILLION actually made me visualize JUST HOW BIG that number is. well done.
All I have to say is this is a GREAT video. Thanks
I can't wait for this to get animated. I am not reading manga before I watch the show ^^. I don't mind at all these basic spoilers of what's going to happen in the story overall in your videos. They just hype me up.
the moro arc part i’m confused about , vegeta was only winning against moro because he was sucking his fused energy out with forced spirit fission , before that actually started to take a effect he was doing as bad as goku if not worse
Yeah that’s what angers me about this video a bit he doesn’t even mention how goku was holding back ssj3 in there fight
Seriously been putting DBZ into perspective lately with the recent videos. Lovin this shit
I always felt vegeta has more potential for power but goku is more skilled and experienced
Seth been on that amazing content grind. Respect
Outside of their first fight Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta. Even now Goku has unlocked his true ultra form before Vegeta.
I mean he unlocked it long before Vegeta did UE he had month's of training before Vegeta reached UE it's not like they started at the same time.
I'm so happy you've been uploading these Seth just quality dbz content 👍💯
I think a couple of things that should be mentioned is that Majin Vegeta while having a more durable body, he also gets a power boost to put him on Goku's level in that fight.
As for Moro arc Vegeta, the yardrat training gave him a technique that specifically HARD counters Moro. So he ends up doing better because he was making Moro weaker with each punch.
Yeah but he's still said to have surpassed Goku in that moment before PUI
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 fair
And Goku could have gone ssj3 any moment and it would be over for Vegeta. Vegeta got the durability and the power level boost and Goku got durability and ssj3 boost. Which is still pretty equal considering that Goku loses a lot more ki in ssj3. Goku did get the training from all his mentors but Vegeta was a saiyan and would've got a lot more training than Goku and was much stronger than kid Goku. Vegeta got clapped by perfect cell and Goku was almost equal to perfect cell in cell games. Both of them went to the time chamber and still Goku performed better. In super up untill ToP, Goku was the strongest fighter but after ultra ego, they both are equal in terms of power. Goku has got a lot more utility and better reaction time and speed but Vegeta has got a lot more durability and has really strong hakai blasts and gets stronger the weaker he gets.
Goku was weaker than Vegeta in Og dragon ball, he was still weaker in saiyan saga, he was stronger than Vegeta in frieza saga, cell games and end of buu saga. He was also stronger in super till the ToP saga excluding the resurrection F movie. But after granola arc they are equal.
Hypothesis: Goku's susanoo could be symbolism of his consciousness spreading to the world around him. If you know what your enemy is gonna do instead of guessing in the dark, it's more effective that way.
I'm loving these constant drops of content rn
Can’t say Goku has an un fair advantage with Kaioken amplifying his power if vegeta also had a way of amping his power also Goku has had the upper hand on vegeta since end of cell saga the fact that vegeta never trained with a master until super is really apparent in there fights > Goku held the edge in any equal battle due to his mastery of techniques he learned via training with masters, vegeta was able to catch up to goku after receiving training from an actual master
And to be clear instant transmission / kaioken/ and spirit bomb are really OP it’s why the villains after frieza arc can regenerate because no normal fighter could hope to defeat Goku using these techniques if they are even remotely close in power > one can amplify power with no specified limit > one can allow instantaneous movement with no way to trace where the user will appear and lastly if your really evil spirit bomb will finish you > if Goku and vegeta fought seriously at any point before super Goku would def kill vegeta in every arc except saiyan saga > just think about that cell saga fight where goku uses instant transmission kamehameha > GG vegeta
Goku had a advantge for sure, most certainly. People who argue Vegeta's Natural Ability to go Ape, vs Goku using GOD TECHNIQUES sound dumb💯
It looks to me that they’re setting up the z fighters to slowly head into the direction of “gt.” So goku,vegeta, gohan, and piccolo are eventually gonna get forms that resemble base form, and they might get some powers locked off when super finally ends in 12 yrs. Then I think they might remake GT and reintroduce SSJ4. As all these super power ups will eventually get absorbed into their base forms or sum.
I’m actually glad both of them got so strong together now they’re teacher is a God themselves and angel to how far they’ve come to vegeta trying to destroy earth to goku meeting and being raised by grandpa gohan they’re like brothers if u think about it vegeta the cool and confident brother while goku is little and funny one db will forever be one of best anime all times
Ive been loving these recent vids lately. Keep it up!
You're promos are hilarious. They are the only ones I don't skip. Well done
It's obvious Goku is stronger. But Vegeta is just amazingly tough and so incredibly determined to improve himself. Also it seems like Vegeta's rage makes him more ferocious at times. So yeah of course Vegeta is powerful and also has a lot of growth as a character throughout the series
With the UI susanoo type thing, it makes me think that Goku is leaning towards using his body and Will (spirit) for his power, whereas vegeta is using his body and Mind for his. At least primarily. Since Vegeta has been seemingly focusing greatly on the Mind aspect of his strength in the Super Hero movie.
Goku: gets training from gods
Vegeta: gets himself
And that's why he's always playing catch-up
The Ultra divine water ass pull was one of the worst gifting of power in DB history. When it was just the fake sacred water that twist made a lot of sense. But the pace after King Piccolo showed up didn’t leave room for Goku to train that fast.
This man deserves 1 million as fast as possible
And then there’s Gohan, who has infinite potential in comparison who also got a similar UI technique😮
Frieza and Broly have wayy more potential
@@polketex5043 Frieza has way potential than everyone except Gohan, and its not even close to Gohan.
And we haven't seen enough of Broly yet to really see how big his potential ability is. All we know about Broly so far is he has massive amounts of untapped power he doesn't know how to control and he adapts far quicker in a fight than anyone else does
@@xxwales15xx33 Frieza and Broly definitely have more potential than Gohan obviously we know strong Frieza has gotten in and gaps he's bridged in strength and Broly went from Base form Vegeta level to above SSB in a hour let Broly have training that Gohan has he'll improve way more obviously
@@polketex5043 Frieza's with 4 months of training was able to fight on par with SSB Goku
Gohan trained for 2 days with Piccolo and forced SSB Goku (which SSB Goku at that point is WAY stronger than when he fought frieza at RF) to use kaio ken. That alone is a major difference.
And Broly was he was just learning how to tap into his power he already had, nothing to do with potential. He was born already miles ahead of every other Sayian and basic training with a low level Sayian like his dad, he would never learn how to learn to control his monstrous power properly. He could have stupid amounts of potential but we don't know enough about him yet
@@xxwales15xx33 Broly would get stronger in most fights and overcome his opponent and Frieza training is amazing cause he one shotted 2 people who are stronger than gohan beast lol
Im leaning more towards the possibility that the true ultra instinct method will eventually seep itself into MUI possibly becoming TMUI, I say this sense MUI is still stronger/ better than his TUI form and it makes sense to make TMUI Goku’s possibly final form in the entire DB story, think about it Gohan has a new transformation now and back when Gohan turned ssj 2 that was when he was supposed to take over the story and become the new main character, I dont think it’s a coincidence that the DBS story is coming to an end and now Gohan finally gets a new transformation after he was shown not even being able to go super Saiyan or any other transformation at the beginning of DBS this whole time DBS has lowkey been a Gohan redemption story and it went right over most peoples head, Gohan went from not being able to transform to being able to keep up with ssj blue to becoming Gohan Beast and possibly being on MUI and EU level if not that then Omen level for sure and nothing lower than that
You should make a video discussing the differences and uses in Omen, PUI, and True Ultra Instinct
Seth is really trying to hit that million subscribers. Posting all these videos lately
Seth and his crew are the only people I take serious when it comes to scaling power…but when I say I take Seth’s word to the death I mean that
So we just gonna ignore vegeta being of royal decent thus having a significantly higher power level at birth. But it's unfair for goku to use kaioken meanwhile it's taken a massive toll on his body? Nah man Vegeta if anything had the unfair advantage in that fight.
Yeah.. theres a lot missing on seth explanation, example in the part when he says Vegata outdoing Goku's UI omen againts Moro by just training in yadrat mean while Goku is training with literal angel.... Lets not forget Vegeta learn a "literal technique" (spirit fision) that counters to Moro's ability, and still what happen.. Vegata cant finish Moro and still Goku able to finish it.
yeah man im with you
I know Naruto already did it, but I want the final final battle of the entire franchise to be a fight between Goku & Vegeta, & I kinda what Vegeta to win. I don’t know, I just think it would be cool for Vegeta to win the battle that book ends the entire franchise.
The correct mindset has allowed Goku to catch up and surpass Vegeta; someone who seems to be naturally stronger than Goku.
No matter what Vegeta is the bar and Goku will find a way to get over that bar. Goku has so many voices guiding him and people depending on him, he often loses track where the bar could even be meanwhile Vegeta won’t let most tell him how to get over that bar because he has so much clarity as to where it is, but no background of understanding of how to clear it. It’s sooooo goooood
Since when is Vegeta the bar? After the Saiyan Arc Goku was ahead of Vegeta throughout all of DBZ, and Vegeta was always chasing after Goku. The only time when Vegeta was really superior was when he first turned Super Saiyan. Other than that, they've either been equal or Goku's been ahead of him.
Saiyans are the ultimate warriors because when they fight, their bodies get stronger to compensate. At the end of the day Vegeta has the strongest most efficient Saiyan body being the most powerful born prince of Saiyans. I think we’ve been seeing Goku be equal in effectiveness, not raw strength, and we see that manifest in the way Vegeta is always able to “catch up” as soon as he sees the “secret”. To be fair, I don’t think Vegeta is capable of clearing most of the bars he sees by himself. Throughout DBZ and DBS, whether he likes it or not, Vegeta will be all “Goku stop fcking around, you have to be stronger than this” and Goku steps up and figures out how to do it. I think Vegeta NEEDS Goku to get stronger but their genetics/baseline/potential dictates that Vegeta will always be naturally superior no matter what. I don’t think Goku NEEDS Vegeta to get stronger, but the fact that Goku can see that he’s literally just built different has pushed him to heights not possible if Vegeta wasn’t as badass as he is.
@@marquistraylor1255 Long Breakdown of Goku & Vegeta's Rivalry Ahead:
And yet that is not seen throughout DBZ. Goku is able to surpass Vegeta in the Frieza Arc once he first arrives on Namek due to a combination of nature and nurture, via Zenkais and Gravity Training, while Vegeta simply abuses his Saiyan biology. Thus, Goku surpasses him, and while Vegeta is nearly killed by Recoome, Goku is able to effortlessly bully Burter and Jeice, and even surpass Ginyu using the Kaioken. Later on, though Vegeta does surpass Goku and is able to compete with Frieza by abusing his nature further, he is beat down by Final Form Frieza and cries, realizing he is not the Super Saiyan. On the other hand, Goku is able to compete with Frieza and as a result of utilizing both his nature and nurture is able to transform into a Super Saiyan and do what Vegeta couldn't. Once Frieza returns, he is killed by Trunks, another Super Saiyan, and Goku returns to Yardrat stronger than ever, with Vegeta staying behind. At this point, Vegeta realizes that simply abusing his nature won't do and begins Gravity Training to catch up to Goku, eventually achieving Super Saiyan himself. (He himself admits that he was chasing after Goku.) This is the first time Vegeta has surpassed Goku, though he is still not able to beat C18 and his pride is wounded. Though he enters the Room of Spirit and Time his idea of training is still flawed, seeing as he sees power as the only thing that matters. Thus, he gets stronger, though he is not able to truly master Super Saiyan. That discovery is made by Goku who still understand training better than Vegeta, and is able to compete with Cell, who embarrassed earlier in the Arc. After Goku dies, Vegeta admits that he has been beaten in every way by Son, and trains for another 7 years by himself, long awaiting their rematch. Once Goku returns to Earth, we find out that he is still stronger than Vegeta even in Super Saiyan 2, and Vegeta has to give up his body and mind to Babidi to reach Goku. However, we find out that Goku was holding back against Vegeta as he didn't use Super Saiyan 3, and Vegeta truly stood no chance of beating Goku this whole time. He himself realizes why Goku is so ahead of him in the Kid Buu fight, where he admits that Goku is #1. In Super, Goku gets the Super Saiyan God ritual done and once again gets way ahead of Vegeta. Vegeta goes to train with Whis but Goku is quickly able to catch up. In the Anime, Goku remains ahead of Vegeta due to combining the Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue, in the Manga they remain on par with each other until Goku first enters UI. In the Moro Arc, Goku masters UI and is way ahead of Vegeta, who then has to learn Ultra Ego to compete. However, after Goku successfully achieves True Ultra Instinct, he is able to outperform Vegeta in the fight against Gas. Vegeta has consistently been the underdog in this rivalry since he lost his first fight.
@@ZeroNegsFiction first of all, appreciate the write up bro 🤞 that’s what I think makes the shows so compelling. I do still think that Vegeta is the bar personally, but I see where you’re coming from. From everything we’ve seen Goku is the TRUE bar and even Vegeta himself has always known this. It’s like nature vs nurture in a sense, it’s tooo goood
@@marquistraylor1255 Agreed, DB is peak
Well in the Buu saga Majin Vegeta was fighting with the intent to kill Goku.. keep in mind while Goku enjoy the fight with Vegeta he's did not really want to fight Vegeta under those circumstances and was disappointed in Vegeta in letting Babadi briefly control him to get stronger.
L comment
@@sipzie7395 na he's right. Goku didn't even want that fight. The fate of the world was hanging by a thread, and that's when Vegeta wants to have that fight??? Goku had no motivation to go all out. He had to conserve energy for the fight with Buu. But of course people who don't think it through will just assume Vegeta was winning that fight
@@ZenMasterScr3wy what do you mean “that’s when he wants the fight” he chose to follow babidis orders for the majiin boost
@@coopdothemost I meant that Vegeta chose the worst possible time to have a good, fair fight with Goku
@Devin Garcia but he didn't wanted to hurt I mean destroy the pride