Absolutely beautiful. I am a seminary trained/ordained interspiritual minister and I fully agree that spiritual practice can be misused as escapism, or as a vehicle to more shutdown. The more we have the good capacity to connect the body/heart-ness of humanity, the more we have the capacity to connect to the truth of our divinity. We are at once sacred and profane, sublime and ridiculous...exquisite assholes, really :) And there is such beauty in that!
As someone who has experienced some serious negative effects from meditation and mindfulness, it's great to finally hear people talk about this. Those scary sea creatures you are talking about just came racing to the surface all at once after about a year of meditating and I had no idea what was going on. My body suddenly started shaking and I got all kinds of weird physical symptoms aswell as mental problems. Im lucky i dont believe in evil entities otherwise i would have sworn I was posessed by one just because how my body was acting without my control. One year further now I am unemployed because of anxiety. I am a lot better now though now that I know that this is trauma resurfacing. Its like a blessing and a curse because I really feel that Im getting to all the really deep stuff i would otherwise never have dealt with. Would have been great to know this could happen before I started meditating though. I find myself wondering sometimes, are my experiences "normal" in some sense or did it really not have to be this intense? I assume trauma resurfacing will be extremely difficult for everyone and isnt there then always a risk that they will temporarily not be able to function in society the way they used to? Isn't that something you should warn people about before they get into working with their nervous system? Anyway thank you for all the information, it's helping a lot!
Hi Sarepaar, Nicole here from Team Lyon. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. And I'm sorry to hear that it was so intense for you. What we see as important when working with trauma is that it's all about titration (Irene talks about it in a video here - ruclips.net/video/EdWtz8H0WK8/видео.html ). The key lies in building capacity and regulation to then in turn explore the layers of our trauma. The thing is many people don't go by it this way and they instead have experiences similar to yours. I hear you on it being a blessing and a curse. I'm glad you've made your way to Irene's work. And are doing a lot better now! Hopefully Irene's content continues to bring you insight and helps you in your healing journey. If you're looking for a good resource, I suggest checking out the Healing Trauma Series - irenelyon.com/healing-trauma Plus Irene has a course starting soon if you're interested in really diving in :) - smartbodysmartmind.com Wishing you capacity. Nicole
Thank you Irene and Chris for the depth and experience you bring to this discussion, I found it really helpful as you put into words my own concerns. My mindfulness practice stemmed my Buddhist practice and community and as I went out into the world and offered to share that with others I felt that in weekly classes I couldn't give people the depth and breadth of what they needed and funnily enough as an EFT practitioner I just wanted to 'tap with them' as I felt that was what would have helped them more than mindfulness practice. So I stopped the mindfulness meditations and swore to myself that I wouldn't present mindfulness again on it's own, I would only combine it as a practice to accompany deeper work. I was only following my intuition though, and your interview has confirmed that I was right to do that and helps confirm that I'm on the right path and it's imporant to follow your gut. Thank you for all that you contribute to the topic of trauma.
As a buddhist who found your work recently I find this talk very beneficial. I had a fortune to read oldest buddhist texts that mention etihics quite often. Chris addresed all aspects of mindfullnes and meditation exquisitly. Thank you both 🙂🙏
17:23 As a 'first-aid' of sorts, as an act of compassion, YES - some kind of relief from crippling anxiety symptoms, even though not a full resolution (which some might never get) is a gift greatly needed! But I certainly take the bigger point that if bad s*** is going down, just dissociating from that doesn't cure anything and could compound problems down the road.
Pure gold. Especially about the dissociative aspects of the witnessing techniques. It messed me pretty bad too until I learned I had to really experience it in a way meditation didn't allow me to. Now I think of it this way: Imagine Jesus on his cross, going through all that pain and suffering and even he broke down and exclaimed to God, "why have you forsaken me?" Sometimes we have to break down as well, and not only witness stuff. "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?"
Thank you so much for this interview! Calling it Mindfulness and Meditation was "limiting" as you covered so much more. I have been on my spiritual path for 30 years and I have experienced it all! What a breath of fresh air!💕
Hi Kasandra . Thanks for commenting. Yes. I had NO clue what to title this. I'd need to write a paragraph to cover all that we cover. Thanks for watching. I'm running my signature video training real soon, it starts March 9, you might be interested in it. Take good care and thanks for watching. I really appreciate it. Irene. XO. irenelyon.leadpages.co/healing-trauma-video-series-march-9/
Thank you both so much for this important and candid conversation. I could (literally) write a book around my own experience relating to this topic from my past since years of *seeking* to feel better, and feel happier, instead of: to feel. I had many of my own intuitive, unsettling feelings and realisations along the way, alongside SO much confusion. Now, just 3 weeks into studying with you Irene, now engaging in The 21 Day NS Tune up, I am Mrs McIN from INSVILLE with the work you teach 😂 I knew the moment I began listening that it offered relief from all the confusion. Wishing you both so much inward (ha! I mean onward - Divine autocorrect 😂) success in your incredibly important work ❤️
Hi, I haven't listened to all the video yet, so much to listen to, and it is very interesting, but felt that I had to comment. A lot of what Chis has to say, yes I agree with but for me if you really wanted to start on a level playing field and have a conversation about Mindfulness then maybe the person you should be talking to is Jon Kabat-Zin . Mindfulness meditation is certainly not about disassociation from the body, on the contrary its allowing what is there to be felt in the body ( the purpose of the body scan) its allowing what is there to be there with equanimity, without judgement, with a sense of inquiry, holding whatever arises in compassion. Mindfulness is not trying to feel better, it is not all about "love and light" it's about allowing us to be present with what is, it's certainly not about getting rid of emotion, but feeling emotion, what does it feel like, where is it in the body, etc allowing those feelings to be known, with tenderness and kindness. Our consciousness is the tip of the iceberg and mindfulness is allowing what is unconscious to be conscious and dealing with what ever arises with self compassion, so letting these feelings of , say anger or grief to surface and be be felt but in a non judgemental way. When Chris talks about disassociation, this isn't mindfulness, this is a coping mechanism. Can't wait to finish the rest of the interview.
Hi, I found your comment interesting and wanted to ask you a question. I didn't look at Jon's videos yet, however I'd be interested in knowing your opinion about this video, if you finished watching it. Also, what do you think about the need to dive deep into the strong, visceral emotion and live it/express it instead of just being aware of it?
Some of the things you say are true and I perceive some as misleading. As a person trained in Somatic Experiencing Trauma Therapy and a 30years+ meditator in many traditions I can attest to the serious risks of intensive retreats. Mindfulness meditation as taught by various teachers as a concentration practice as well as an awareness practice is taught as a stress reducing because it promotes relaxation and develops the nervous system's capacity to allow bodily sensations to be experienced and not avoided. Those sensations can lead to more capacity, deeper awareness, acceptance, wellbeing due to the ability to experience pleasure and pain more fully. Dissociative states have to be watched for however and people with trauma need to find other ways to heal trauma. Meditation may not be effective as a way to deal with trauma and may trigger the trauma to resurface therefore retraumatize us. I would be cautious to discount the relaxing benefits and body/mind awareness developed in yoga or meditation especially when one has not experienced them first hand or has biases in other modalities.
I recently started doing inner child work, and I've thing I've found helpful is asking the feeling, memory or pain if there is anything it would like to share with me. I feel like it allows me do learn a lot without forcing issues that I'm not quite ready for yet. It's not quite the same as meditation but I do feel like I go into a meditative state when I do this.
Thanks for sharing your experience Kiseo. It's wonderful hearing that you're finding a way to explore and learn without forcing. Nicole - Team Lyon Moderator
So interesting. The biggest treatments for fibromyalgia, a central nervous system disorder that I have, have come by accident as side effects. Mindfulness and meditation have hugely helped me with this and to calm my nervous system and reduce the impact of my symptoms. I use the words mindfulness and meditation because that communicates the message in current culture. I have actually managed to use the two parts as it seemed a logical progression! This was all good food for thought.
Until extremely recently I could not tell the difference between being "zen" and shut down. I also was in the habit "watching the grief" and never diving.
Awesome! I hope this knowledge leads to more insight! In regards to the grief, know that there's no rush to dive in - but it can be beneficial to at least dip a toe in :) If you are after some more tools be sure to check out this free resource. irenelyon.com/7-steps-opt-in-IL Nicole - Team Lyon Moderator
this reminds me of a friend who started transpersonal therapy in Toronto and ended up after 20 years bypassing her trauma. She became more and more cold and sick. I no longer speak to her after 20 years of friendship as she became more and more abusive.
I was wondering if it would be possible for you to elaborate on what you guys referred to as "Genetically inherited Trauma Patterns"? Please and thank you for all that you do🙏 ~Sonja
I'm feeling even more confused, coming from a place of long term meditation on a daily basis. I'd like to know specifically what your thoughts are on the practices of Dr Joe Dispenza, and where that fits in in relation to this video? Thank you!
Hi Kate, Jen here from Team Lyon. I get how this can be confusing, especially when there are so many studies on the benefits of mindfulness. A foundational principle Irene teaches is to follow your impulses, so if something works for you and for your nervous system then trust you impulses. What can happen with many mindfulness and many positively-oriented spiritual and psychological practices is that we may either 1) develop skill and perspective to better be with our experience but often don't grow foundational. nervous system regulation or heal traumas or 2) we open things up too quickly without the nervous system capacity to hold what's opened up and can then feel more pain, discomfort, anxiety, destabilization, etc. Usually we have a gut level sense of what's happening. For example, I was long time meditator and yoga teacher and my practice helped me immensely AND I could see that some things in my experience and life still weren't changing in ways I believed to be possible. Long story short, this led to nervous system work and things changed in a whole new way and my meditation practice deepened over time. Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion! PS Irene is teaching drop in class this weekend. The drop in classesbetween and relationship to meditation irenelyon.com/drop-in-class-1
It was pointed out to me some weaknesses in our western approach to this thing called meditation:for example,a reluctance to absorb spiritual practise into our lives on the habitual level,a tendency to keep practise for special moments (thus enabling us to get the most sensation out of it ?).there is also the powerful western habit of making a split between mind and body - then rejecting the body and trying to solve everything in the mind.whereas the gentle and middle way there is full attention to the physical Base as the foundation of meditational activity. (The first of the 4 foundations of mindfulness).The way lies in doing everyday things with quality.meditation is not something that you do,it's what you are. (From j.garrie roshi).
Wow! It's the first time I hear someone discussing the dangers of meditation! I can relate! Twice I got traumatized while meditating. One time I realized that everything and everyone was a creation of the mind. When I got back I felt so alone and anxious. The other time I saw a light so bright that I thought I would die. It's like my heart stopped and I couldn't breath. I was meditating a lot and didn't want to do anything else. I lost taste for everything. Symtoms started to pile. I have been sick for 10 years, now in a wheelchair. I have 2 suspects for the root cause of my illness: traumas or mercury.
This video, was great for me to hear. The 'shutdown' discussion caused my ears/eyes to perkup, as it triggered thoughts of my personal blocks. Thank you~
this is the second time I see this video and as you progress in diferent practices every time you go back to a video or an information you might get a deeper understanding of the subject and the practical . This time the deeper understanding have come on the fact that the objective of meditation is nos for calming stress but for spiritual enlightment, do we really need to call the stress in this way that is basically supressing it or if we're using it to hide and avoid dealing with what is actully generating the stress, making us more dociles to situation, sircummstances that generate stress and got get to the poin of normalizing them, is the meditation practice considering the way it has being introduced and practiced in the west a tool being used to make us more docile to all the abuses that people in power, the so call rulers of the world subject the population to
Thank you for your perspective on this. Before I discovered somatics my first embodied awakening out of a shut down state was achieved through vipassana practice. The first foundation of mindfulness the Buddha taught is mindfulness of the body. I practiced meditation for a year before I went on my first retreat. It was so healing for my nervous system to have the consistency and quiet. Just to add the perspective of a practitioner healing complex developmental trauma.
Hey Laurence. Thanks for your comment! It's true that many people can get good benefits from Vipassana, me included! I've done a couple 10 day sits. It all comes down to capacity and education, and it's also true that many people engage in mindfulness practices like Vipassana, before they have enough of either of those things, hence this video :) - Seth from Team Lyon.
I really want to listen to this interview however ,in the nicest way, would do well in just listening instead of cutting in even with the ok,ok. The interview would flow much smoother. Thank you for your efforts regardless.
Christian meditation is quite distinct and goes way back and is having to be learnt again today. If we are not careful we develop a smorgasbord approach and whilst many religions/ spiritual have things we can learn from and even use, we can loose the distinctive Christian approach that a committed Christian needs as core. We might call it spiritual chaos and hardly know we are there. It is totally easy to be a committed Christian and practice mindfulness. So esoteric offerings may sound intriguing but can cause issues. All religions are not the same is the total fact with major differences e.g Christianity v Buddhism. Also it needs to be stated that much of meditation is dry, hard work and rarely mountain top experiences but they can come. It seems to me that Irene's work with the nervous system can work very well with identified Christian practice.
hi - i just answered this question in a recent FB live in my Healthy Nervous System Revolution FB Community. Maybe head over there and join so you can watch the video. It's a long form chat, but it'll give you A LOT Of good information around this topic. facebook.com/groups/nervoussystem/ It was the live chat I did today, on March 23. but, in a nutshell, if kids have the freedom to move and aren't forced to sit still then it can be useful. But for those with developmental trauma and stored up fight/flight responses, it can be disastrous. IMO - kids need more play, and movement and activity and CONNECTION, as opposed to sitting alone and closing their eyes. Mammals weren't designed to be still like this. :)
Andrew & Loretta Kish, Jen here from Team Lyon. The word "mindfulness" had different meanings in different contexts. Sometimes it's used interchangeably with the word meditation, other times it's used more generally to refer to how we pay attention. Peter Levine and Irene's work both involves mindfulness in this more general way.
Hi Tina Malave, Jen here from Team Lyon. Depending on your orientation there are a wide variety of answers to this question, including spiritual ones. We do find that as we do the work to heal in this nervous system way often gives us a new and different perspective on our lives.
Not convinced by fear of meditation, oh I have sthin I dont want to face right now, sory, isnt it cultivating fear ? And not convinced by the fear again of isolating onself for a week or 2 in this transforming world where awakening can happen to anyone just now. If there is love you don't need fear
I'm curious. What if there is no love. Or no sense of safety in the world? As this is often the situation with people who have experienced trauma, especially developmental trauma. Appreciate your comment and would love to know more on your thoughts! Nicole - Team Lyon Moderator
So dont realy andurstand....méditation it’s not for fighting anxiété but for speritual awakening....spiritual dos help us to know thé princesse of the body so yes it help a the end ! No? Very confuse whit this vidéo ..... im franch sorry that ...lol
Hi Jonathan Marantha, Jen here from Team Lyon. I hear how this can be confusing. Meditation can help some people to reduce their anxiety symptoms, and this is often isn't the same as growing foundation nervous system regulation and capacity. You might think of the difference as with meditation, we often have tools to help us to manage our experience our anxiety and create some distance from it. With the nervous system work, we often has less and less anxiety over time. I'll link to a talk Irene did with her colleague and husband, Seth Lyon, where they talk more about this: irenelyon.com/2022/01/23/why-meditating-cold-plunging-in-paradise-wont-heal-your-trauma/
Absolutely beautiful. I am a seminary trained/ordained interspiritual minister and I fully agree that spiritual practice can be misused as escapism, or as a vehicle to more shutdown. The more we have the good capacity to connect the body/heart-ness of humanity, the more we have the capacity to connect to the truth of our divinity. We are at once sacred and profane, sublime and ridiculous...exquisite assholes, really :) And there is such beauty in that!
Totally agree as a long decades practicing and genuenly believing Christian! Religion and spiritualism can be such an excape technique!
As someone who has experienced some serious negative effects from meditation and mindfulness, it's great to finally hear people talk about this. Those scary sea creatures you are talking about just came racing to the surface all at once after about a year of meditating and I had no idea what was going on. My body suddenly started shaking and I got all kinds of weird physical symptoms aswell as mental problems. Im lucky i dont believe in evil entities otherwise i would have sworn I was posessed by one just because how my body was acting without my control. One year further now I am unemployed because of anxiety. I am a lot better now though now that I know that this is trauma resurfacing. Its like a blessing and a curse because I really feel that Im getting to all the really deep stuff i would otherwise never have dealt with. Would have been great to know this could happen before I started meditating though.
I find myself wondering sometimes, are my experiences "normal" in some sense or did it really not have to be this intense? I assume trauma resurfacing will be extremely difficult for everyone and isnt there then always a risk that they will temporarily not be able to function in society the way they used to? Isn't that something you should warn people about before they get into working with their nervous system?
Anyway thank you for all the information, it's helping a lot!
Hi Sarepaar,
Nicole here from Team Lyon.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience. And I'm sorry to hear that it was so intense for you. What we see as important when working with trauma is that it's all about titration (Irene talks about it in a video here - ruclips.net/video/EdWtz8H0WK8/видео.html ). The key lies in building capacity and regulation to then in turn explore the layers of our trauma. The thing is many people don't go by it this way and they instead have experiences similar to yours.
I hear you on it being a blessing and a curse. I'm glad you've made your way to Irene's work. And are doing a lot better now!
Hopefully Irene's content continues to bring you insight and helps you in your healing journey.
If you're looking for a good resource, I suggest checking out the Healing Trauma Series - irenelyon.com/healing-trauma
Plus Irene has a course starting soon if you're interested in really diving in :) - smartbodysmartmind.com
Wishing you capacity.
Nicole
Thank you Irene and Chris for the depth and experience you bring to this discussion, I found it really helpful as you put into words my own concerns. My mindfulness practice stemmed my Buddhist practice and community and as I went out into the world and offered to share that with others I felt that in weekly classes I couldn't give people the depth and breadth of what they needed and funnily enough as an EFT practitioner I just wanted to 'tap with them' as I felt that was what would have helped them more than mindfulness practice. So I stopped the mindfulness meditations and swore to myself that I wouldn't present mindfulness again on it's own, I would only combine it as a practice to accompany deeper work. I was only following my intuition though, and your interview has confirmed that I was right to do that and helps confirm that I'm on the right path and it's imporant to follow your gut. Thank you for all that you contribute to the topic of trauma.
As a buddhist who found your work recently I find this talk very beneficial. I had a fortune to read oldest buddhist texts that mention etihics quite often. Chris addresed all aspects of mindfullnes and meditation exquisitly. Thank you both 🙂🙏
17:23 As a 'first-aid' of sorts, as an act of compassion, YES - some kind of relief from crippling anxiety symptoms, even though not a full resolution (which some might never get) is a gift greatly needed! But I certainly take the bigger point that if bad s*** is going down, just dissociating from that doesn't cure anything and could compound problems down the road.
Pure gold. Especially about the dissociative aspects of the witnessing techniques. It messed me pretty bad too until I learned I had to really experience it in a way meditation didn't allow me to. Now I think of it this way: Imagine Jesus on his cross, going through all that pain and suffering and even he broke down and exclaimed to God, "why have you forsaken me?" Sometimes we have to break down as well, and not only witness stuff. "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?"
Thank you so much for this interview! Calling it Mindfulness and Meditation was "limiting" as you covered so much more. I have been on my spiritual path for 30 years and I have experienced it all! What a breath of fresh air!💕
Hi Kasandra . Thanks for commenting. Yes. I had NO clue what to title this. I'd need to write a paragraph to cover all that we cover. Thanks for watching.
I'm running my signature video training real soon, it starts March 9, you might be interested in it. Take good care and thanks for watching. I really appreciate it. Irene. XO.
irenelyon.leadpages.co/healing-trauma-video-series-march-9/
Thank you both so much for this important and candid conversation. I could (literally) write a book around my own experience relating to this topic from my past since years of *seeking* to feel better, and feel happier, instead of: to feel.
I had many of my own intuitive, unsettling feelings and realisations along the way, alongside SO much confusion. Now, just 3 weeks into studying with you Irene, now engaging in The 21 Day NS Tune up, I am Mrs McIN from INSVILLE with the work you teach 😂 I knew the moment I began listening that it offered relief from all the confusion. Wishing you both so much inward (ha! I mean onward - Divine autocorrect 😂) success in your incredibly important work ❤️
Hi, I haven't listened to all the video yet, so much to listen to, and it is very interesting, but felt that I had to comment. A lot of what Chis has to say, yes I agree with but for me if you really wanted to start on a level playing field and have a conversation about Mindfulness then maybe the person you should be talking to is Jon Kabat-Zin . Mindfulness meditation is certainly not about disassociation from the body, on the contrary its allowing what is there to be felt in the body ( the purpose of the body scan) its allowing what is there to be there with equanimity, without judgement, with a sense of inquiry, holding whatever arises in compassion. Mindfulness is not trying to feel better, it is not all about "love and light" it's about allowing us to be present with what is, it's certainly not about getting rid of emotion, but feeling emotion, what does it feel like, where is it in the body, etc allowing those feelings to be known, with tenderness and kindness. Our consciousness is the tip of the iceberg and mindfulness is allowing what is unconscious to be conscious and dealing with what ever arises with self compassion, so letting these feelings of , say anger or grief to surface and be be felt but in a non judgemental way. When Chris talks about disassociation, this isn't mindfulness, this
is a coping mechanism. Can't wait to finish the rest of the interview.
Hi, I found your comment interesting and wanted to ask you a question. I didn't look at Jon's videos yet, however I'd be interested in knowing your opinion about this video, if you finished watching it.
Also, what do you think about the need to dive deep into the strong, visceral emotion and live it/express it instead of just being aware of it?
Some of the things you say are true and I perceive some as misleading. As a person trained in Somatic Experiencing Trauma Therapy and a 30years+ meditator in many traditions I can attest to the serious risks of intensive retreats. Mindfulness meditation as taught by various teachers as a concentration practice as well as an awareness practice is taught as a stress reducing because it promotes relaxation and develops the nervous system's capacity to allow bodily sensations to be experienced and not avoided. Those sensations can lead to more capacity, deeper awareness, acceptance, wellbeing due to the ability to experience pleasure and pain more fully.
Dissociative states have to be watched for however and people with trauma need to find other ways to heal trauma.
Meditation may not be effective as a way to deal with trauma and may trigger the trauma to resurface therefore retraumatize us.
I would be cautious to discount the relaxing benefits and body/mind awareness developed in yoga or meditation especially when one has not experienced them first hand or has biases in other modalities.
Wow, this was a fantastic discussion and a breath of fresh air! Thank you both for bringing such important perspective to this topic.
Hey Lisa. You are welcome. It was a fun discussion. Always nice finding those folks who compliment your MO. :)
Hope you are well. Irene.
I recently started doing inner child work, and I've thing I've found helpful is asking the feeling, memory or pain if there is anything it would like to share with me. I feel like it allows me do learn a lot without forcing issues that I'm not quite ready for yet. It's not quite the same as meditation but I do feel like I go into a meditative state when I do this.
Thanks for sharing your experience Kiseo.
It's wonderful hearing that you're finding a way to explore and learn without forcing.
Nicole - Team Lyon Moderator
So interesting. The biggest treatments for fibromyalgia, a central nervous system disorder that I have, have come by accident as side effects. Mindfulness and meditation have hugely helped me with this and to calm my nervous system and reduce the impact of my symptoms. I use the words mindfulness and meditation because that communicates the message in current culture. I have actually managed to use the two parts as it seemed a logical progression! This was all good food for thought.
Until extremely recently I could not tell the difference between being "zen" and shut down. I also was in the habit "watching the grief" and never diving.
Awesome!
I hope this knowledge leads to more insight!
In regards to the grief, know that there's no rush to dive in - but it can be beneficial to at least dip a toe in :)
If you are after some more tools be sure to check out this free resource.
irenelyon.com/7-steps-opt-in-IL
Nicole - Team Lyon Moderator
this reminds me of a friend who started transpersonal therapy in Toronto and ended up after 20 years bypassing her trauma. She became more and more cold and sick. I no longer speak to her after 20 years of friendship as she became more and more abusive.
Yes, you got it Irma. THis is what happens.
I was wondering if it would be possible for you to elaborate on what you guys referred to as "Genetically inherited Trauma Patterns"? Please and thank you for all that you do🙏
~Sonja
The essence of spirituality--wonderful!!
Hi - thanks for watching and comment. Glad you enjoyed!!
I really enjoyed this interview Irene .. wonderful and delicious food for thought and an entirely unexpected aspect to the two M's
Thanks Deb! Glad it resonated with you.
I'm feeling even more confused, coming from a place of long term meditation on a daily basis. I'd like to know specifically what your thoughts are on the practices of Dr Joe Dispenza, and where that fits in in relation to this video? Thank you!
Hi Kate, Jen here from Team Lyon. I get how this can be confusing, especially when there are so many studies on the benefits of mindfulness. A foundational principle Irene teaches is to follow your impulses, so if something works for you and for your nervous system then trust you impulses.
What can happen with many mindfulness and many positively-oriented spiritual and psychological practices is that we may either 1) develop skill and perspective to better be with our experience but often don't grow foundational. nervous system regulation or heal traumas or 2) we open things up too quickly without the nervous system capacity to hold what's opened up and can then feel more pain, discomfort, anxiety, destabilization, etc.
Usually we have a gut level sense of what's happening. For example, I was long time meditator and yoga teacher and my practice helped me immensely AND I could see that some things in my experience and life still weren't changing in ways I believed to be possible. Long story short, this led to nervous system work and things changed in a whole new way and my meditation practice deepened over time. Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion!
PS Irene is teaching drop in class this weekend. The drop in classesbetween and relationship to meditation
irenelyon.com/drop-in-class-1
@@teamlyon3109 Hi Jen, thanks so much for your response. Actually, what you just said helps immensely! Thank you! 🙏🥰😍
It was pointed out to me some weaknesses in our western approach to this thing called meditation:for example,a reluctance to absorb spiritual practise into our lives on the habitual level,a tendency to keep practise for special moments (thus enabling us to get the most sensation out of it ?).there is also the powerful western habit of making a split between mind and body - then rejecting the body and trying to solve everything in the mind.whereas the gentle and middle way there is full attention to the physical Base as the foundation of meditational activity. (The first of the 4 foundations of mindfulness).The way lies in doing everyday things with quality.meditation is not something that you do,it's what you are. (From j.garrie roshi).
Wow! It's the first time I hear someone discussing the dangers of meditation! I can relate! Twice I got traumatized while meditating. One time I realized that everything and everyone was a creation of the mind. When I got back I felt so alone and anxious. The other time I saw a light so bright that I thought I would die. It's like my heart stopped and I couldn't breath. I was meditating a lot and didn't want to do anything else. I lost taste for everything. Symtoms started to pile. I have been sick for 10 years, now in a wheelchair. I have 2 suspects for the root cause of my illness: traumas or mercury.
Your welcome Irene. I look forward to the next one.😊
This video, was great for me to hear. The 'shutdown' discussion caused my ears/eyes to perkup, as it triggered thoughts of my personal blocks. Thank you~
this is the second time I see this video and as you progress in diferent practices every time you go back to a video or an information you might get a deeper understanding of the subject and the practical . This time the deeper understanding have come on the fact that the objective of meditation is nos for calming stress but for spiritual enlightment, do we really need to call the stress in this way that is basically supressing it or if we're using it to hide and avoid dealing with what is actully generating the stress, making us more dociles to situation, sircummstances that generate stress and got get to the poin of normalizing them, is the meditation practice considering the way it has being introduced and practiced in the west a tool being used to make us more docile to all the abuses that people in power, the so call rulers of the world subject the population to
Amazing interview, a real Soul healer
Thank you for your perspective on this.
Before I discovered somatics my first embodied awakening out of a shut down state was achieved through vipassana practice. The first foundation of mindfulness the Buddha taught is mindfulness of the body. I practiced meditation for a year before I went on my first retreat. It was so healing for my nervous system to have the consistency and quiet. Just to add the perspective of a practitioner healing complex developmental trauma.
Hey Laurence. Thanks for your comment! It's true that many people can get good benefits from Vipassana, me included! I've done a couple 10 day sits. It all comes down to capacity and education, and it's also true that many people engage in mindfulness practices like Vipassana, before they have enough of either of those things, hence this video :) - Seth from Team Lyon.
I really want to listen to this interview however ,in the nicest way, would do well in just listening instead of cutting in even with the ok,ok. The interview would flow much smoother.
Thank you for your efforts regardless.
Christian meditation is quite distinct and goes way back and is having to be learnt again today. If we are not careful we develop a smorgasbord approach and whilst many religions/ spiritual have things we can learn from and even use, we can loose the distinctive Christian approach that a committed Christian needs as core. We might call it spiritual chaos and hardly know we are there. It is totally easy to be a committed Christian and practice mindfulness. So esoteric offerings may sound intriguing but can cause issues. All religions are not the same is the total fact with major differences e.g Christianity v Buddhism. Also it needs to be stated that much of meditation is dry, hard work and rarely mountain top experiences but they can come. It seems to me that Irene's work with the nervous system can work very well with identified Christian practice.
Im loving and watching alot of your videos. Thank you 😁 i think its amazing that you put these videos out there like that 🙏
I like him! Thank you for this!
Yes, he is a true mentor and expert in this area. You are most welcome!
Incredible conversation!
HI Tamar - Glad you enjoyed it!
What about all the meditation/mindfulness that is being in schools?
hi - i just answered this question in a recent FB live in my Healthy Nervous System Revolution FB Community. Maybe head over there and join so you can watch the video. It's a long form chat, but it'll give you A LOT Of good information around this topic.
facebook.com/groups/nervoussystem/
It was the live chat I did today, on March 23.
but, in a nutshell, if kids have the freedom to move and aren't forced to sit still then it can be useful. But for those with developmental trauma and stored up fight/flight responses, it can be disastrous. IMO - kids need more play, and movement and activity and CONNECTION, as opposed to sitting alone and closing their eyes.
Mammals weren't designed to be still like this. :)
1/7/23. I’m confused. Doesn’t Peter Levine teach a form of mindfulness in some of his somatic exercises?
Andrew & Loretta Kish, Jen here from Team Lyon. The word "mindfulness" had different meanings in different contexts. Sometimes it's used interchangeably with the word meditation, other times it's used more generally to refer to how we pay attention. Peter Levine and Irene's work both involves mindfulness in this more general way.
Thank you both!!!!
Excellent conversation! 💚
i love this conversation.
This is fantastic!
Possible psychological dangers or practicing nonduality without proper foundations:
Spiritual bypassing,
Spiritual narcissism,
Dissociation
I found the lock Ness monster! warning kids, be careful what you fish for haha
😆
Why does it require so much suffering to get back to a place where you dont feel like you're going crazy?
Hi Tina Malave, Jen here from Team Lyon. Depending on your orientation there are a wide variety of answers to this question, including spiritual ones. We do find that as we do the work to heal in this nervous system way often gives us a new and different perspective on our lives.
I wish 'Mooji' would understand this
I wish rupert spira would understand this
Not convinced by fear of meditation, oh I have sthin I dont want to face right now, sory, isnt it cultivating fear ? And not convinced by the fear again of isolating onself for a week or 2 in this transforming world where awakening can happen to anyone just now. If there is love you don't need fear
I'm curious. What if there is no love. Or no sense of safety in the world? As this is often the situation with people who have experienced trauma, especially developmental trauma.
Appreciate your comment and would love to know more on your thoughts!
Nicole - Team Lyon Moderator
@@IreneLyon if there is no love ok... better look Mark Gungor for a good laugh
We can all use a good laugh.
Currently listening to The Tail of 2 Brains 😆👍🏼
Nicole
The tale of 2 brains
😜 haha! Yes.
Nicole
So dont realy andurstand....méditation it’s not for fighting anxiété but for speritual awakening....spiritual dos help us to know thé princesse of the body so yes it help a the end ! No? Very confuse whit this vidéo ..... im franch sorry that ...lol
Hi Jonathan Marantha, Jen here from Team Lyon. I hear how this can be confusing. Meditation can help some people to reduce their anxiety symptoms, and this is often isn't the same as growing foundation nervous system regulation and capacity.
You might think of the difference as with meditation, we often have tools to help us to manage our experience our anxiety and create some distance from it. With the nervous system work, we often has less and less anxiety over time.
I'll link to a talk Irene did with her colleague and husband, Seth Lyon, where they talk more about this: irenelyon.com/2022/01/23/why-meditating-cold-plunging-in-paradise-wont-heal-your-trauma/