Be informed that Niccolo Machiavelli did not condone the behaviours he outlined in strategies he posited as ideal or flawless for rulers to retain their power, in his essay. He merely revealed all the cards in a ruler's hand to commoners.
He had to put this disclaimer. That era was an insane time to drop such a groundbreaking and controversial book. It still amazes me how ahead of his time he was \
thank you , so insightful my exboyfriend had bothmachiavellic and narcissistic traits. i had no idea these things existed in a person. i broke through (at tremendous, immensurable loss) - and finally free of his grip and enjoying life to its fullest. now i can put actual words to explain who he was. thank you again
Extremely sorry for the loss. But it was courageous of you to take a firm stand for yourself. I am facing something similar and I need guidance. I want to stop this Machiavellian person from further ruining my life. Will you please help?
Ok, slightly problem, that part about Dark triad personality traits being more dominant in men is not only outdated but bias. Women have actually ben found to exhibit more Narcissistic and Machiavellian traits in comparison to men.
I don't agree withe Machiavellian types being disagreeable to the level you express in the video. Perhaps internally they are like that, but given they wish to avoid drawing attention to themselves and have impulse control, it is not smart to be obviously disagreeable, that would draw attention to you and cause you to lose allies who you might need for your goals. Really doesn't align with the idea of that personality type.
If you look into young Machs research it is a defense mechanism that develops in childhood due to having to survive your environment. Their brain also sees patterns in everything especially human behavior. Like some in the dark tetrad not all Machs are out for power.
This is great! One of the best explainers I’ve seen. Russian political culture is inherently nihilistic and Machiavellian. A very good example of the pure pursuit of power with complete disregard for other people. I wrote about Putin for the SF Examiner. Trump is a great admirer of his.
The 2 questions that need answering are: Why is this so blatantly obvious to only half of the country? And why do so many people honor these dark triad types as great leaders?
How much comorbidy exists? Can malignant narcs have sadistic, psychopathic traits? I'm in the mental health field and I am aware of the differences in the prefrontal cortex and amygdala of ASPDs but is there literature or have there been scans on malignant narcs???
Jim Brillon, Could you do a video on sadistic personality disorder? It used to be in the DSM but was taken out. Could you please explain why it was put in and then why it was taken out and what is the same and difference about it in comparison to sadism? Thank you. My sister is a covert narcissist. She is sadistic but not in the way that it is defined as in gaining sexual arousal or laughing but in the way that a Bully gets pleasure in physically beating you ( my sister did to me all the way into our early twenties ). They learn that it is against the law to physically beat you and so then mentally beat you. They put you down and destroy you. I see this as a form of sadism, why? Why do I see it like that even though it does not fit the definition? Thank you.
I think that the dark triad are sadistic in some way or another. Psychopath could probably be more physically sadistic and others more emotional and psychological sadism but I believe that enjoying hurting people is sadistic no matter if is physical, emotional or psychological. They enjoy harming others and that is sadistic for me.
The more I watch the longer the list of labels I get for my neighbour who wants to destroy me. It's a bizarre situation we're in. We want to move to get away from her and her flying monkey husband but they deliberately refuse to cooperate with a problem with the deeds preventing us from selling our house. There have been occasions when the delight she experiences from controlling our lives appears almost sexual. It's very strange, like she's on the verge of having an orgasm. She gets way too excited. All I do know is that she is deeply unhappy unless she can see someone else suffering. She's some sort of sick gaoler who is actually the one who is serving the life sentence in prison. We're in the process of picking the lock. It's approaching 2 years now but one day we'll get that door to swing open.
Anyone can be sadistic to a degree for many different reasons. It's considered a human trait more so than anything associated with the dark triad. Most people would want someone like a child predator to experience pain and misery. Sadistic PD and self destructive PD could be a thing but probably very rare. I couldn't imagine how someone would be diagnosed though. It's just a entire personality based on my different traits associated with causing different forms of pain and the gratification from it regardless of who is affected. Narcissist normally have this concept of punishment or getting revenge vs just outright hurting someone and even than, it's just to make themselves for more important and powerful. Not to mention the rage associated
@ apatheticxmindsetx3549, I agree. For narcissists/psychopaths it’s going to be about fixing their ego to make themselves feel better. I guess all humans can have the possibility to do this, but many control their impulse because their empathy, guilt, shame and a conscience kicks in. Narcissists/psychopaths are low in that or their self entitlement might make them want to just go ahead and do it. Great answer, I was just thinking about this today. I was thinking to myself, it’s their ego problem and that’s what makes a difference between true sadism and their, “ sadism “.
Wouldn't a Machiavellian person's drive of competitiveness and power mean that they would want to win every other 'game', even possibly at the expense of the current 'game'? Wouldn't that create, at least a type of, moral framework and ability to integrate into society better than a narcissist or psychopath?
I'm not sure I understand your question. I don't see competitiveness and power equating to a moral framework. A moral code relates to teaching and knowing the difference between right and wrong behavior, goodness and correct conduct. Rather than integrating into society, these people are more interested in controlling resources and as a result, people. These are pro social traits.
@@jimbrillon I appreciate you taking the time to answer here, thank you. Maybe a better question is: don't iterated games emulate a moral framework? Maybe not one that is necessarily prosocial or altruistic, but definably better than the framework someone psychopathic or narcissistic could use?
@@jimbrillon Maybe I can reframe my question without my incorrect assumptions lol. Are Machiavellian people defined by their predatory nature, or simply by their proclivity towards exercising power? Or in another way, is the Mach IV test negatively correlated to the Truth-Humility Hexaco personality aspect, or are they fully independent measurements?
@@25meipMaybe you could refrain your question so not to confuse? In my experience the narcissist loves obfuscation. Some ancient warrior said in order to confuse one's enemy first confuse oneself.
@@sarahwagland1559 Yes, narcissists love obfuscation, but they seem to lie just because, even if it's outrageous and detrimental to their own stability. A Machiavellian lies for their own benefit. That can be super dangerous, but not necessarily predatory. That is the point of my question. Can a Machiavellian function in society? Hexaco personality trait honesty-humility seems to be negatively correlated to dark tetrad personalities. In that the more humble/honest you are, the less likely you are a predator. My question is to make a distinction. Can someone with Machiavellian traits not be predatory, or will they have the same compulsory, unstable nature as a narcissist?
Hello Jim, Are there anyways how you should confront someone with Machiavellianism, or how should you communicate with such a person? I recently found out that my best friend is a machiavellist (extreme version) due to an article and then everything made sense for me. A few months a go something happend that I couldn't let pass. So we are no longer in touch with eachother. We've been best friends for 13 years. Over the years there were signs of manipulation, deception, lies (even te smallest things),.. Now he has tried with multiple ways to get back in touch. But I don't want this anymore because now I know how he truly is and understand it.
3 tips for you: 1. Establish strict boundaries with them 2. Surround yourself with actually loving, supporting, and understanding friends/relatives 3. Do not trust them with your vulnerabilities Hope this helps.
I'm trying to make sense of this disorder because if one seeks to be in a position of power and authority and their mindset is distrusting of others then wouldn't they need to earn the trust or likeability from subordinates? or do they covertly get in a sub power and take over at some point?
I reckon it sounds a bit like the difference between a leader and a boss.. a leader has earned my trust and respect, but I can still be tricked into trusting the boss when he's charming and manipulative.
Interesting overview. I’m not certain that it’s dramatically more common in men, but probably the effect of testosterone amplifies it to the degree that it causes legal problems, and as a result, appears more common. I also note that I share some of those traits but I’m very high in empathy (detrimentally, perhaps?), and conscientiousness, but also high in neuroticism. So a lot of nuance, but a great overview!
Sounds more like Feminist. Also, that part about Dark triad personality traits being more dominant in men is not only outdated but bias. Women have actually ben found to exhibit more Narcissistic and Machiavellian traits in comparison to men.
Can you apply Machiavellianism to a marital situation where the husband has Machiavellianism and the wife is an empath? Maybe even including the courtship? Can you describe/elaborate on the dynamics of that relationship. Characteristics and behaviors specific of a Machiavellian husband. Thank you so much for this video.
I was in a relationship with a Machiavellian and I am an empath. It was very toxic because i formed a trauma bond to his high and lows and I knew when he emotionally abused me he will then treat me good for a short period of time. I was addicted to the “pleasure after pain” and he was well aware of the fact that he manipulated me. When I finally saw through his Fassade he always got angry, aggressive and rampaged. I always wanted to help him and show him that he’s still loved and we can go through everything together but he said “You can’t help someone who doesn’t want help” and “I am who I am deal with it.” and that hurt so eventually I had to leave even though I loved the illusion of him. I loved the way he always said he would be and made me think someday the lies would become reality but I waited for something that never came. He also cheated on me and blamed it on me saying “your behavior made me cheat because I can’t trust you” so he always tried to gaslight me. Sadly I was so addicted and had this trauma bond that I didn’t couldn’t leave and stayed longer than I should have. It’s been three months since the break up where I took the time to strengthen my self esteem, love myself, learn about machiavellism and narcissism so I never fall for those love bombing acts and manipulative behavior again (hopefully). Hope this helps!
@@Chiarawoh thank you for sharing your experience. I can relate to so much of what you mentioned. An example, of one of the many toxic behaviors by my ex was him giving me the silent treatment for long periods of time. Instead he would leave horrible notes on my desk after I went to bed, so when I woke up (before I went to work) I would have to read them. It was bizarre and unsettling. I am still healing and it has taken a long time. Sending you good vibes, ty for the response :)
@@riac5388 I’m sorry to hear that you had to experience this! Sounds awful and gut wrenching! But I can somewhat understand how you feel. I hated the silent treatment. I would talk for 30min without him saying anything but looking to the ground as if he was ashamed when in fact he enjoyed me suffering. Sadistic people are the worst kind for empaths since to this day I can’t understand how someone can be so cruel to another human being! I’m glad we’re both out of that situation! Lots of love and positivity!💚 may we never experience abusive relationships again!
You wont, that's the point. Narcissists are easy to spot, you will never find a machiavelists, at least not until they are done with you. I believe machiavellianists are honed, narcissists are born from their environment.
Any one who appears too good to be true should put up red flags and sound alarm bells. People who spend their time being highly attentive to others but seem to think carefully before answering questions about themselves. My neighbour puts big bunches of flowers in all her windows all the time. Her WhatsApp pic has a soft focus halo around her and flowers in the foreground. Anyone who tries too hard to look virtuous has a lot to hide. What you see is very much not what you get.
Thanks for the insight. Could it be said that all of the cluster b personality disorders are essentially narcissistic- but not necessarily narcissism or NPD?
Be informed that Niccolo Machiavelli did not condone the behaviours he outlined in strategies he posited as ideal or flawless for rulers to retain their power, in his essay. He merely revealed all the cards in a ruler's hand to commoners.
He had to put this disclaimer. That era was an insane time to drop such a groundbreaking and controversial book. It still amazes me how ahead of his time he was \
thank you , so insightful my exboyfriend had bothmachiavellic and narcissistic traits. i had no idea these things existed in a person. i broke through (at tremendous, immensurable loss) - and finally free of his grip and enjoying life to its fullest. now i can put actual words to explain who he was. thank you again
Extremely sorry for the loss. But it was courageous of you to take a firm stand for yourself. I am facing something similar and I need guidance. I want to stop this Machiavellian person from further ruining my life. Will you please help?
This is crazy how a human brains works 😦😦😦
Ok, slightly problem, that part about Dark triad personality traits being more dominant in men is not only outdated but bias. Women have actually ben found to exhibit more Narcissistic and Machiavellian traits in comparison to men.
Mix and stir: Narcissistic + Histrionic + Paranoid + OCD + Avoidant = Prison. Living with someone with these PD is being a PRISONER OF A SADIST.
I don't agree withe Machiavellian types being disagreeable to the level you express in the video. Perhaps internally they are like that, but given they wish to avoid drawing attention to themselves and have impulse control, it is not smart to be obviously disagreeable, that would draw attention to you and cause you to lose allies who you might need for your goals. Really doesn't align with the idea of that personality type.
If you look into young Machs research it is a defense mechanism that develops in childhood due to having to survive your environment. Their brain also sees patterns in everything especially human behavior. Like some in the dark tetrad not all Machs are out for power.
☝🏽🎯
The part where they are putting my life in danger and don’t have empathy or remorse means the person harassing me is disordered.
This is great! One of the best explainers I’ve seen. Russian political culture is inherently nihilistic and Machiavellian. A very good example of the pure pursuit of power with complete disregard for other people. I wrote about Putin for the SF Examiner. Trump is a great admirer of his.
The 2 questions that need answering are: Why is this so blatantly obvious to only half of the country? And why do so many people honor these dark triad types as great leaders?
I know a narcisist, a narcisist are quite easy to spot if he/she is simple/not smart, because their traits becomes so transparent.
Trump is like the perfect mix of machiavellianism and narcissism.
I see why Scientology has a problem with psychiatry
How much comorbidy exists? Can malignant narcs have sadistic, psychopathic traits? I'm in the mental health field and I am aware of the differences in the prefrontal cortex and amygdala of ASPDs but is there literature or have there been scans on malignant narcs???
How can anyone seriously look at the world and its history and not believe that it is a cutthroat place?
Because, the world is really a cut-throat place.
Nice meditation thank you.
I think this presents differently when people are highly intelligent, socialised and a bit reflective.
This world is a dark place it will always be
Love your vids bro hope you stay consistent with your channel you have great potential to blow up someday
Jim Brillon,
Could you do a video on sadistic personality disorder? It used to be in the DSM but was taken out. Could you please explain why it was put in and then why it was taken out and what is the same and difference about it in comparison to sadism? Thank you.
My sister is a covert narcissist. She is sadistic but not in the way that it is defined as in gaining sexual arousal or laughing but in the way that a Bully gets pleasure in physically beating you ( my sister did to me all the way into our early twenties ). They learn that it is against the law to physically beat you and so then mentally beat you. They put you down and destroy you. I see this as a form of sadism, why? Why do I see it like that even though it does not fit the definition? Thank you.
I think that the dark triad are sadistic in some way or another. Psychopath could probably be more physically sadistic and others more emotional and psychological sadism but I believe that enjoying hurting people is sadistic no matter if is physical, emotional or psychological. They enjoy harming others and that is sadistic for me.
The more I watch the longer the list of labels I get for my neighbour who wants to destroy me. It's a bizarre situation we're in. We want to move to get away from her and her flying monkey husband but they deliberately refuse to cooperate with a problem with the deeds preventing us from selling our house. There have been occasions when the delight she experiences from controlling our lives appears almost sexual. It's very strange, like she's on the verge of having an orgasm. She gets way too excited. All I do know is that she is deeply unhappy unless she can see someone else suffering. She's some sort of sick gaoler who is actually the one who is serving the life sentence in prison. We're in the process of picking the lock. It's approaching 2 years now but one day we'll get that door to swing open.
Anyone can be sadistic to a degree for many different reasons. It's considered a human trait more so than anything associated with the dark triad. Most people would want someone like a child predator to experience pain and misery. Sadistic PD and self destructive PD could be a thing but probably very rare. I couldn't imagine how someone would be diagnosed though. It's just a entire personality based on my different traits associated with causing different forms of pain and the gratification from it regardless of who is affected. Narcissist normally have this concept of punishment or getting revenge vs just outright hurting someone and even than, it's just to make themselves for more important and powerful. Not to mention the rage associated
@ apatheticxmindsetx3549,
I agree. For narcissists/psychopaths it’s going to be about fixing their ego to make themselves feel better. I guess all humans can have the possibility to do this, but many control their impulse because their empathy, guilt, shame and a conscience kicks in. Narcissists/psychopaths are low in that or their self entitlement might make them want to just go ahead and do it.
Great answer, I was just thinking about this today. I was thinking to myself, it’s their ego problem and that’s what makes a difference between true sadism and their, “ sadism “.
Wouldn't a Machiavellian person's drive of competitiveness and power mean that they would want to win every other 'game', even possibly at the expense of the current 'game'? Wouldn't that create, at least a type of, moral framework and ability to integrate into society better than a narcissist or psychopath?
I'm not sure I understand your question. I don't see competitiveness and power equating to a moral framework. A moral code relates to teaching and knowing the difference between right and wrong behavior, goodness and correct conduct. Rather than integrating into society, these people are more interested in controlling resources and as a result, people. These are pro social traits.
@@jimbrillon I appreciate you taking the time to answer here, thank you. Maybe a better question is: don't iterated games emulate a moral framework? Maybe not one that is necessarily prosocial or altruistic, but definably better than the framework someone psychopathic or narcissistic could use?
@@jimbrillon Maybe I can reframe my question without my incorrect assumptions lol. Are Machiavellian people defined by their predatory nature, or simply by their proclivity towards exercising power? Or in another way, is the Mach IV test negatively correlated to the Truth-Humility Hexaco personality aspect, or are they fully independent measurements?
@@25meipMaybe you could refrain your question so not to confuse? In my experience the narcissist loves obfuscation. Some ancient warrior said in order to confuse one's enemy first confuse oneself.
@@sarahwagland1559 Yes, narcissists love obfuscation, but they seem to lie just because, even if it's outrageous and detrimental to their own stability. A Machiavellian lies for their own benefit. That can be super dangerous, but not necessarily predatory. That is the point of my question. Can a Machiavellian function in society?
Hexaco personality trait honesty-humility seems to be negatively correlated to dark tetrad personalities. In that the more humble/honest you are, the less likely you are a predator. My question is to make a distinction. Can someone with Machiavellian traits not be predatory, or will they have the same compulsory, unstable nature as a narcissist?
AKA.... tRuMp 🤔🤨
Machiavellianism sounds like a superpower. Really cool.
Hello Jim,
Are there anyways how you should confront someone with Machiavellianism, or how should you communicate with such a person?
I recently found out that my best friend is a machiavellist (extreme version) due to an article and then everything made sense for me.
A few months a go something happend that I couldn't let pass. So we are no longer in touch with eachother.
We've been best friends for 13 years. Over the years there were signs of manipulation, deception, lies (even te smallest things),..
Now he has tried with multiple ways to get back in touch. But I don't want this anymore because now I know how he truly is and understand it.
3 tips for you:
1. Establish strict boundaries with them
2. Surround yourself with actually loving, supporting, and understanding friends/relatives
3. Do not trust them with your vulnerabilities
Hope this helps.
@@izzaikram1471 Thanks!
But no matter how I toss or turn it the equation always ends up with 0=0. Everyone paid the price
Good stuff! Would be interested in a comparison with the third leg, psychopathy. Thanks.
Thanks! I read somewhere at the narcisistisk normally are also psykopats.which one of them is worst? To be in a relationship with?
I'm trying to make sense of this disorder because if one seeks to be in a position of power and authority and their mindset is distrusting of others then wouldn't they need to earn the trust or likeability from subordinates? or do they covertly get in a sub power and take over at some point?
I reckon it sounds a bit like the difference between a leader and a boss.. a leader has earned my trust and respect, but I can still be tricked into trusting the boss when he's charming and manipulative.
Interesting overview. I’m not certain that it’s dramatically more common in men, but probably the effect of testosterone amplifies it to the degree that it causes legal problems, and as a result, appears more common. I also note that I share some of those traits but I’m very high in empathy (detrimentally, perhaps?), and conscientiousness, but also high in neuroticism. So a lot of nuance, but a great overview!
Would Anthony Fauci be considered a Machiavellian?
Its based on the tactic used by niccolo machiavelli
Thank you so much for this video 🙏🏽
Thank you Jim 😊
9
🙏
Sounds like progressives
Sounds more like Feminist. Also, that part about Dark triad personality traits being more dominant in men is not only outdated but bias. Women have actually ben found to exhibit more Narcissistic and Machiavellian traits in comparison to men.
@@shawnwarrynn8609 Interesting. And men have been found to suffer BPD in equal amounts to women, though their symptoms display differently.
Can you apply Machiavellianism to a marital situation where the husband has Machiavellianism and the wife is an empath? Maybe even including the courtship? Can you describe/elaborate on the dynamics of that relationship. Characteristics and behaviors specific of a Machiavellian husband. Thank you so much for this video.
I was in a relationship with a Machiavellian and I am an empath. It was very toxic because i formed a trauma bond to his high and lows and I knew when he emotionally abused me he will then treat me good for a short period of time. I was addicted to the “pleasure after pain” and he was well aware of the fact that he manipulated me. When I finally saw through his Fassade he always got angry, aggressive and rampaged. I always wanted to help him and show him that he’s still loved and we can go through everything together but he said “You can’t help someone who doesn’t want help” and “I am who I am deal with it.” and that hurt so eventually I had to leave even though I loved the illusion of him. I loved the way he always said he would be and made me think someday the lies would become reality but I waited for something that never came. He also cheated on me and blamed it on me saying “your behavior made me cheat because I can’t trust you” so he always tried to gaslight me. Sadly I was so addicted and had this trauma bond that I didn’t couldn’t leave and stayed longer than I should have. It’s been three months since the break up where I took the time to strengthen my self esteem, love myself, learn about machiavellism and narcissism so I never fall for those love bombing acts and manipulative behavior again (hopefully). Hope this helps!
@@Chiarawoh thank you for sharing your experience. I can relate to so much of what you mentioned. An example, of one of the many toxic behaviors by my ex was him giving me the silent treatment for long periods of time. Instead he would leave horrible notes on my desk after I went to bed, so when I woke up (before I went to work) I would have to read them. It was bizarre and unsettling. I am still healing and it has taken a long time. Sending you good vibes, ty for the response :)
@@riac5388 I’m sorry to hear that you had to experience this! Sounds awful and gut wrenching! But I can somewhat understand how you feel. I hated the silent treatment. I would talk for 30min without him saying anything but looking to the ground as if he was ashamed when in fact he enjoyed me suffering. Sadistic people are the worst kind for empaths since to this day I can’t understand how someone can be so cruel to another human being!
I’m glad we’re both out of that situation! Lots of love and positivity!💚 may we never experience abusive relationships again!
Yes, never again, we don't deserve that kind of abuse. We deserve peace and hapiness
Thank you Jim,this was so interesting and educational. I would love to hear how to spot a person who has machiavellianism.
You wont, that's the point. Narcissists are easy to spot, you will never find a machiavelists, at least not until they are done with you. I believe machiavellianists are honed, narcissists are born from their environment.
Any one who appears too good to be true should put up red flags and sound alarm bells. People who spend their time being highly attentive to others but seem to think carefully before answering questions about themselves. My neighbour puts big bunches of flowers in all her windows all the time. Her WhatsApp pic has a soft focus halo around her and flowers in the foreground. Anyone who tries too hard to look virtuous has a lot to hide. What you see is very much not what you get.
It s just for entertainment purposes 😂
Thanks for the insight. Could it be said that all of the cluster b personality disorders are essentially narcissistic- but not necessarily narcissism or NPD?
Yes
They're technically all different faucets of the same thing. It's no different with cluster A or B.