hi hello wow theres a lot more of you than expected thank you this video has a much better version now! check it out: ruclips.net/video/c8YtaRr1uMQ/видео.htmlsi=GyLp_jS6UM5mX-2O
Wow you actually brought up the transference of momentum from a dash to jump. Too many players don’t even understand this is a thing that brings the quality of ultimate down in such a fundamental way
It might even be the primary thing that makes Melee special. Run and jump as Falcon in Melee, then do it in Ultimate. Ultimate feels like rocks are tied to your feet.
When you first start playing Melee, especially as an Ultimate player, it's also something you'd have to get used to so you don't end up flying offstage or accidentally overshooting. Once you get used to it, though, it unlocks so many options. And to be fair, Ult does have a few things over Melee gameplay-wise. For instance, being able to do RARs (especially IRARs) would be nice to have in Melee. But even then, Melee is great with reverse hitboxes.
this is a good video, but I think Steve vs Sonic in particular is one of the worst matchups imaginable to watch in Ultimate lol. It's like judging Melee on the basis of something like Samus vs Jigglypuff (although I still think that would still compare favorably)
It's also a matchup between two very prominent meta characters. Samus is pretty rare, and puff is already on the more fringe side of things for a high tier
I was also confused why a competitive Smash Ultimate match was compared to Poke Floats with items on for Melee (eg. not a Melee tournament legal setup at all), not exactly a fair comparison. If you compared a clip of Ultimate with items on and a scrolling stage (eg Mario Maker) to a clip of Hungrybox stalling at a Melee tourney, then Ultimate would look way more interesting instead. Putting that aside, still a great video overall, does a nice job of presenting Melee concepts quickly and clearly
I don't play smash but it's quite fun to watch, especially Melee. Steve though, he camps more than the guys with Riot shields and trophy systems in black ops 2. Riveting gameplay.
Melee is still alive for a reason. Brain-dead salty fcg players like to call the game too easy with 1 viable character, which isn’t true at all, do some research before you bash on something, while they’re still over here praising Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike (which is a good game but the hypocrisy is very apparent) Melee is quite possible the greatest happy accident of all time.
Melee:alive Fighting games:dead! Because easy and gay Hey it’s me Alan do you have the answers for the science quiz in miss Robinson’s class? I forgot to study lol.
I think that you praise Melee on a lot of things that could be said about ultimate. The Skill ceiling is also endless, pushing low tiers to win is possible, etc. It seems to me that only valid reason you invoke to promote Melee is creativity, which is undoubtdebly its main quality. Great Video tho, keep goin 👏
The skill ceiling in games like melee and sc1 are higher than their sequels and allows you greater control over the outcome of the game. The difficulty in piloting your character well also creates more skill tiers of players because it’s not enough to have good strategy, execution itself is a huge aspect…the gap between bad to mid and mid to good players shrank in future releases. When you’re good at melee and sc1 and play mediocre players u don’t just win, u steamroll because there is way more opportunities and ways to express skill.
I would say the skill ceiling is more about physical limits in this case. Melee TAS videos are a thing because it can perform meaningful actions from inputs no human could ever be fast enough to make, as opposed to other fighting / fighting-ish games being pretty much only about out-skilling the player since the characters are "on rails" enough that they can be perfectly controlled.
@@SpottedZebra and there's a balance to be had between being too difficult and too easy to perfect. Requiring complicated inputs just to perform basic attacks would further expand the skill ceiling, but it would be too disruptive and unfun. On the opposite end of the spectrum if a single button press auto-comboed a full stock it would remove a lot of depth and put everyone's skill level too close together.
I’ve been following melee for over three years and even tried it myself. Even though I do agree that the game is more enjoyable to watch and more interesting to play, I still find myself playing ultimate more just out of habit. I honestly think melee has more of a beautiful history with full character arcs and a more passionate community. For me it’s similar to csgo and valorant, where I’ve played csgo and learned the history and culture and tried to convince others to try it out, yet people just default to the most popular game. I’m definitely going to try melee again and hopefully I can move on from ultimate
There's still interaction going on like Peach zoning off areas for Puff to escape to with turnips and Puff has a ton of creative Rest setups for Peach, even if she's bairing most of the time. At least there's some kind of neutral interaction, these characters can't build ACTUAL walls to hide behind they can only space their aerials
I love both Melee and Ultimate, but the movement in Melee... Uuughh, it's just so good. It takes a little bit to adjust to the movement of Ultimate after playing Melee and P+ because spacing and movement work differently in that game. Your aerial burst range is smaller, your ability to microspace is weaker, and platforms are stickier. Also, combos aren't as free-flow or interactive. Once you get used to doing Melee things, which honestly doesn't take that long, it's so much more fun imo. Though it would be super nice to be able to change your controls in Melee like you can in other titles. Imagine being able to turn off tap jump so you could more easily do pivots, or switch to tilt stick so it's easier to Utilt on reaction. Even as someone who has gotten used to Melee's controls, I honestly don't see why we don't have a universal mod for it yet. For accessibility purposes and general consistency across games, it would be nice to have.
I have this opinion but the melee community is kinda toxic when these questions are asked. They don't really care to make the game more accessible because it takes away the "hard work" that people have put in previously. I don't mind it now because i eventually sucked it up and grinded. But the thing is i probably would have started playing sooner if there were mods for accessibility.
@@Trashboat_06 egg$ cracked the top 100 in 2023 and went game 5 with mango at tipped off, I think yoshi is finally starting to get more usage than just out of amsa
I like the montage in the end with the music. and i like your music choice Makes me want to reinstall slippi and try to learn the game so i can actually have fun (didnt play this game as a kid)
I understand your point but ultimate is not only sonix vs steve, ultimate has a lot more of options to be competitive playable and also the amount of steve that you see in competitive is not compared to the amount of fox that you can see in competitve melee. Yes the game is faster and also is harder, and its pretty fun but ultimate has a lot of variety both in competitive and casual, is less broken(in terms of bugs that destroy the game, we all know the pokemon stadium glitch) and is also fun, has good mecanics, is not as complex as it is melee, but its fun too. Ultimate is not only sonic vs steve guys, as well as melee is not only fox ditto's.
Also its like people dont see the bad things in melee, surely stalling is really fun to play and watch and well the problem that the comunitty has with the controls, and than even mango said that using the box is cheating, come on guys dont talk about ultimate like the worst thing ever without even mentioning melee's stalling and other issues.
I will settle this argument once and for all. Ultimate players like the simplicity Melee players enjoy the complexity because they had to earn the right through practicing. It's a preference thing. Skill over execution multiplied by time equals your ability to compete in said game. If you take a long time to improve or you don't have the will to lose to get better...melee isn't for you. Melee is skill based free flow fighting Ultimate is spacing and timing based, more defensive. Also steve and Bayonetta warp the game around them and that's filthy work
Ok i just think if you have someone new to the game, smash ultimate will be more fair and fun for them to learn. Melee plays like dogwater without UCF and the few times outside the smash community ive ran into melee, it doesnt have ucf. Id take trash dash dancing over 2 frame chance of being able to dash dance. You cant dash out of couch without a perfect controller. Shield dropping requires UCF. Ive taught casuals how to do bread and butters in ultimate, i dont believe i can spend the same amount of time in melee and see a new player get any better. Smash ultimate is more fun without commitment, melee is more fun with commitment and each side acts a if this isnt the point theyre looking for. Melee is amazing to watch, ultimate wont lie, kinda kills me to watch 50% of the time.
Melee meta having so long to develop without patches has really allowed it to evolve I wish Smash 4 had lasted at least another 4 years because bidou was looking game-changing
Yeah I don't hate it but I think the game would be better if it was just on by default Ultimate's universal low landing lag is a bit ridiculous though (especially combined with universal 3 frame jump squats)
I used to agree with you, but I don’t anymore. My old thought process was “removing execution barriers increases the consistency of the mind-to-game transfer.” My new stance is that honestly, stuff being harder just makes it that much more sick when someone pulls it all off seemlessly, and also the execution barriers mean that there’s near endless scalability in the pursuit towards perfection. Also, the more room for error there is in the execution, the more stuff becomes allowable on a practical level decision wise due to the counter play requiring precise execution. Imagine for example that you could wavedash out of shield with a single button and buffer it during shield stun, so whenever someone hits your shield, you press one button at any point during the shield stun and get a frame perfect wavedash out. This would make so many moves considerably less safe on shield, which would dramatically reduce the amount of moves that could be done in neutral and dramatically buff the power of shield. Even though it’s a technique that’s possible in the base game if your execution is perfect, the speed at which the game is played and the number of precise inputs you need over the course of a game make it less viable, and therefore you can get “unsafe” pressure sequences and pokes due to mental stack and execution barrier. This is part of why melee is considered more expressive than games with easier execution. The speed and the difficulty leave the door open for more choices that would be mistakes if execution of the counter play was flawless 100% of the time
@@Goreblender Sure, but where do we draw the line at that point? Why not take it a step further and make it more difficult to do basic tilts for example? Lets say you made it so after using a tilt or smash attack, you had to press the l button at the end of a certain frame? Better yet why not make L cancelling more difficult and have the player press two buttons instead of one when landing with an aerial? I guess what im trying to say is that while I think execution barriers are good overall for any competitive game, they have to provide some kind of visual reward to the player imo and having depth just for the sake of depth to me is bad game design. Depth needs to serve a purpose for its existence. The problem with L cancelling is that its an artificial execution barrier just for the sake of it. It doesn't actually provide anything to the game nor adds to the fun to the average player. Lets compare wavedashing to L-cancelling as an example. Wavedashing is not only very useful to learn, but it provides the player with a fun movement option and gives players the ability to express themselves in their gameplay. This is an example of a mechanic that provides good depth to the game. It gives players a visual reward for their efforts. L-cancelling on the other hand simply reduces the landing lag of a bunch of commonly used moves in your characters kit that are fundamental. Have you ever tried to play Melee again without L-cancelling? it feels hella slow and less fun to play. Aerials become about as slow as brawls. It makes the game feel way more like a clunky mess for newer players than it needs to be. L-cancelling as a mechanic actively discourages newer players from wanting to continue playing Melee. tldr: I'm all for execution barriers and depth to a competitive game, but just having depth for the sake of it is bad design, it needs to serve a purpose and provide a player with a clear visual reward for executing it. Adding more lag to the most basic of moves just to have an execution barrier is poor design, as it makes the game feel less fun to beginners and discourages newer players. Hell even for more veteran players who are use to it like myself, it feels more like an annoying extra button we have to press to just do something so basic that is standard in every other smash game or platform fighter in general.
@@shadownite3378i know what you mean, yes l-cancelling is not exactly deep, but it is an undeniably unique flair to melee that gives it more character and flow. there are a limit to these things like you said however, so i’m glad l-cancelling is its own standalone “automatic motion” we must all abide by
Oh my God I love melee but couldn't make it through this. It seems like you're someone relatively new to melee. Loving the game is great. We don't have to say other smash games are boring to enjoy the game. Also wave dashing has 10 frames of lag.
i feel that games like p+ appeal to players who want to do too much when they r playing, which is why i personally like ult cause its simple and makes a lot of sense, allowing me to tackle other aspects of the game
@@Daniel-ce6mmI'm not big on Ultimate but I agree with you on Project M I started playing 4xm this year & it's similar to Project M but without giving characters floats or rests etc Project M has some of the most elaborate & intricate character designs of any Smash but for that same reason it's not a go-to for me
In fairness this video was originally made for his friends but I agree it definitely makes for healthier discourse when we celebrate our game without ragging on the others at all
@@SSJPENGUIN 100%, i dont think the maker was completely dogging on ult, if anything it was like "this is why i enjoy this game more", but for example even tho yes sonic vs steve happens more often than other matches, there is still a vast sea of players that play a wide range of characters that make the game interesting to watch, it feels every new tournament there is a player to look out for and new storylines
its pretty fun, played every smash game before melee and i ended up liking melee the most very quickly. got ult at launch and played it for 2 years too and hated it ngl
Hot take alert: One reason, is because melee (on average) is actually easier than ultimate once you reach a high level. In melee, you can lean on your mechanical skill to beat worse players. In ultimate, every game you need to be making better decisions as the skill gap is way smaller. You cannot flow. Although, there's no contest, melee is way more difficult once you are at the VERY top of the top. Because there is so much weird tech.
That is the ultimate hot take. The reason that you can rely on your mechanical skill to beat worse players in melee is precisely because it is more difficult. Better players are basically super saiyans compared to newer players in terms of just how fast they are and how much harder they can hit. That’s how it is in any sport. Race Imboden doesn’t need to think to beat you in fencing, only fencers near your skill level need to think.
@@Goreblender yes, but doing that for sets, as opposed to individual games, consistently, is more difficult imo. Tech can be practiced in a week. Decision making is something that you need to be better at consistently, every single game of ultimate that you play. But I know im in the minority for feeling that way.
counterpoint is melee’s complexity means the game is not only more mechanically demanding but the neutral is likewise deeper. you can actually make deeper reads and a more complex neutral symphony in melee: just because ult doesn’t have hardcore punish like melee doesn’t mean it has a more hardcore neutral.
in ult u play ur character vs the opponents character, its difficult until uv learned what every character does then u just have2 predict or react2 1 of their characters fixed options n Do Your Combo, where in melee every single moment has multiple options 4either player. decision making is the Only skill in ult past a very low execution barrier n knowing characters moves bc the rest is designed 2do the work 4u combo routes r predetermined neutral play is guided advantage n disadvantage hardly exist outside of ledgetrapping n true combos. every part is simplified down2 bigger, more impactful decisions by making every interaction smaller than a gamestate change predetermined. a steve lands an uptilt in neutral then its a 1 player execution test until he messes up or kills. decision making in ult stands out as its the only part of the entire game where subjective skill defines the outcome, where in melee its just a small part of the overall skill of a player.
Why do you compare high level ultimate to low level melee? Of course people are going to play like scumbags when there's money on the line regardless of the game. High level melee looks cooler anyway so idk why you even felt the need to make this comparison lol. Also, the reason you like melee is just because of less input-buffering, l-canceling, and.... dash dancing??? There's plenty of reasons to love melee so again idk why this was all you could come up with
While Melee is lacking some modern conveniences, it's faster, deeper, and controls better than Ultimate. Many of Ultimate's changes from Smash 4 for better competitive play (such as less recovery on aerials and the directional air dodge) are mechanics returning from Melee. And there's still many, many other things the dev team never brought back from Melee.
I will never forgive them for removing shield dropping or butchering Falcon's movement AFTER Ultimate's public beta Kinda doubt I'll (regularly) play it but I am excited to see Smash 6 mechanics & changes though
A couple things that bother me with ultimate are the inability to pass through your opponent in neutral and the lack of shield dropping. I think the game could be a lot more interesting with just those two changes
I feel like Melee players make a video like this every year. In the modern day people playing older games is way more common, the biggest example I can think of is the people still playing Mario Kart Wii, or even Mario 64 Speedruns. While this is a good explanation of what makes Melee a unqiue entry in the Smash series it's not like a regular person would look down on you for playing it, nor would playing the new game let you have any less fun playing Melee. If anything being able to say "yeah i even play the old entry" would make you seem like you're more knowledgeable.
I’m with you on the competitive side, but the casual side of the argument is nonsense. Melee feels like total ass to control if you haven’t practiced it for quite a while.
melee players only play melee because brawl failed. if brawl was even somewhat competitively good, about as many people would be playing melee as smash n64 right now
You still have a have edge cancel shenanigans + on reaction wavelands & slide off opportunities Just it's more likely a random element will end a game or combo Still hoards of fun but not ideal if there's money at stake or some form of ranking etc
@@kayden2119 ultimate also has a character that has to be ban. The Melee community took like 15 years to ban wobbling, let's see if the Ultimate community does better
@@70ADnow you do understand that officially, Melee has no online right? Melee online is added through a mod that, yes, does run better than Ultimate online, but a mod could almost definitely be made for Ultimate to achieve the same
Ultimate is the worst smash half of the content is in stupidly expensive and abusive DLC world of light is a shitty event mode with 4 dollars and 0 ambition trophies disapeared it was just the DNA of the series the competive scene is a pay to win where you have to buy steve to anhihilate the free characters
hi hello wow theres a lot more of you than expected thank you
this video has a much better version now! check it out: ruclips.net/video/c8YtaRr1uMQ/видео.htmlsi=GyLp_jS6UM5mX-2O
Counting falco's lasers & waveshine in the L-Cancel counter @ 1:52 is unforgivable.
u right my b
A little confused but we get the point
Wow you actually brought up the transference of momentum from a dash to jump. Too many players don’t even understand this is a thing that brings the quality of ultimate down in such a fundamental way
It might even be the primary thing that makes Melee special. Run and jump as Falcon in Melee, then do it in Ultimate. Ultimate feels like rocks are tied to your feet.
When you first start playing Melee, especially as an Ultimate player, it's also something you'd have to get used to so you don't end up flying offstage or accidentally overshooting. Once you get used to it, though, it unlocks so many options. And to be fair, Ult does have a few things over Melee gameplay-wise. For instance, being able to do RARs (especially IRARs) would be nice to have in Melee. But even then, Melee is great with reverse hitboxes.
@bluyu what are RARS?
@@benjaminmedranda331Reverse Aerial Rush
I think
this is a good video, but I think Steve vs Sonic in particular is one of the worst matchups imaginable to watch in Ultimate lol. It's like judging Melee on the basis of something like Samus vs Jigglypuff (although I still think that would still compare favorably)
It's also a matchup between two very prominent meta characters. Samus is pretty rare, and puff is already on the more fringe side of things for a high tier
A better comparison i think would be comparing steve/sonic with fox/marth. All four characters are S tier
@@benjaminmedranda331Fox marth is actually cool to watch tho
Melee's Sonix vs Acola is Michael vs Bananas
I was also confused why a competitive Smash Ultimate match was compared to Poke Floats with items on for Melee (eg. not a Melee tournament legal setup at all), not exactly a fair comparison. If you compared a clip of Ultimate with items on and a scrolling stage (eg Mario Maker) to a clip of Hungrybox stalling at a Melee tourney, then Ultimate would look way more interesting instead.
Putting that aside, still a great video overall, does a nice job of presenting Melee concepts quickly and clearly
2:40 I think you forgot to put yoshi under either "The Best" or "The Ok". either way cool video
@@kennythekid130 oh yeah you right i totally did what the hell shoutout yoshi my b
One has good netcode, one has exceptionally bad netcode.
One has bad netcode one has no netcode
Yoshi is making a comeback too imo, and I can’t wait to see what’s gonna happen next with others!
good video, gl in content creation. just one tip, watch the audio mixing with the bgm
Comparing Ultimate and Melee by showing the Top 2 Players in a finale and a random casual game on Poké Float is very weird and doesn't make any sense.
Thanks for making this idk how niche this video is but its exaclty what i needed 😭
I don't play smash but it's quite fun to watch, especially Melee. Steve though, he camps more than the guys with Riot shields and trophy systems in black ops 2. Riveting gameplay.
Melee is still alive for a reason. Brain-dead salty fcg players like to call the game too easy with 1 viable character, which isn’t true at all, do some research before you bash on something, while they’re still over here praising Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike (which is a good game but the hypocrisy is very apparent) Melee is quite possible the greatest happy accident of all time.
Melee:alive
Fighting games:dead! Because easy and gay
Hey it’s me Alan do you have the answers for the science quiz in miss Robinson’s class? I forgot to study lol.
@@thesecondplace2314 asking for answers to a science quiz in a yt comments section for ssbm is wild
@@thesecondplace2314who are you?
Good video. Will use this to explain melee to my ult friends as well
Melee is way more fun to watch and I don’t even play it 🙉 year of the DK🍌🍌
I think that you praise Melee on a lot of things that could be said about ultimate. The Skill ceiling is also endless, pushing low tiers to win is possible, etc. It seems to me that only valid reason you invoke to promote Melee is creativity, which is undoubtdebly its main quality.
Great Video tho, keep goin 👏
The skill ceiling in games like melee and sc1 are higher than their sequels and allows you greater control over the outcome of the game. The difficulty in piloting your character well also creates more skill tiers of players because it’s not enough to have good strategy, execution itself is a huge aspect…the gap between bad to mid and mid to good players shrank in future releases. When you’re good at melee and sc1 and play mediocre players u don’t just win, u steamroll because there is way more opportunities and ways to express skill.
I would say the skill ceiling is more about physical limits in this case. Melee TAS videos are a thing because it can perform meaningful actions from inputs no human could ever be fast enough to make, as opposed to other fighting / fighting-ish games being pretty much only about out-skilling the player since the characters are "on rails" enough that they can be perfectly controlled.
@@SpottedZebra and there's a balance to be had between being too difficult and too easy to perfect. Requiring complicated inputs just to perform basic attacks would further expand the skill ceiling, but it would be too disruptive and unfun. On the opposite end of the spectrum if a single button press auto-comboed a full stock it would remove a lot of depth and put everyone's skill level too close together.
I’ve been following melee for over three years and even tried it myself. Even though I do agree that the game is more enjoyable to watch and more interesting to play, I still find myself playing ultimate more just out of habit. I honestly think melee has more of a beautiful history with full character arcs and a more passionate community. For me it’s similar to csgo and valorant, where I’ve played csgo and learned the history and culture and tried to convince others to try it out, yet people just default to the most popular game. I’m definitely going to try melee again and hopefully I can move on from ultimate
Bro really showed sonic vs Steve when puff vs peach exists in melee💀
even that is better than the most hype mu in ult
There's still interaction going on like Peach zoning off areas for Puff to escape to with turnips and Puff has a ton of creative Rest setups for Peach, even if she's bairing most of the time.
At least there's some kind of neutral interaction, these characters can't build ACTUAL walls to hide behind they can only space their aerials
someone get the llod vs hbox clip
Yea but how often does Puff vs Peach happen in Melee. Steve and Sonic are there to slow the game down to a crawl way more frequently than they are.
I love both Melee and Ultimate, but the movement in Melee... Uuughh, it's just so good. It takes a little bit to adjust to the movement of Ultimate after playing Melee and P+ because spacing and movement work differently in that game. Your aerial burst range is smaller, your ability to microspace is weaker, and platforms are stickier. Also, combos aren't as free-flow or interactive. Once you get used to doing Melee things, which honestly doesn't take that long, it's so much more fun imo. Though it would be super nice to be able to change your controls in Melee like you can in other titles. Imagine being able to turn off tap jump so you could more easily do pivots, or switch to tilt stick so it's easier to Utilt on reaction. Even as someone who has gotten used to Melee's controls, I honestly don't see why we don't have a universal mod for it yet. For accessibility purposes and general consistency across games, it would be nice to have.
I have this opinion but the melee community is kinda toxic when these questions are asked. They don't really care to make the game more accessible because it takes away the "hard work" that people have put in previously. I don't mind it now because i eventually sucked it up and grinded. But the thing is i probably would have started playing sooner if there were mods for accessibility.
yoshi is also a viable tournament threat (if played by aMSa, and NO ONE else)
@@Trashboat_06 egg$ cracked the top 100 in 2023 and went game 5 with mango at tipped off, I think yoshi is finally starting to get more usage than just out of amsa
The fact that I'd rather watch someone fight a cpu on poke floats than that competitive ult match...
goated video
I like the montage in the end with the music. and i like your music choice
Makes me want to reinstall slippi and try to learn the game so i can actually have fun (didnt play this game as a kid)
you absolutely need to, it gets better as you play
This is super helpful, thanks
its no from me dog after hearing my friends having hand issues playing melee for years.
I understand your point but ultimate is not only sonix vs steve, ultimate has a lot more of options to be competitive playable and also the amount of steve that you see in competitive is not compared to the amount of fox that you can see in competitve melee. Yes the game is faster and also is harder, and its pretty fun but ultimate has a lot of variety both in competitive and casual, is less broken(in terms of bugs that destroy the game, we all know the pokemon stadium glitch) and is also fun, has good mecanics, is not as complex as it is melee, but its fun too.
Ultimate is not only sonic vs steve guys, as well as melee is not only fox ditto's.
Also its like people dont see the bad things in melee, surely stalling is really fun to play and watch and well the problem that the comunitty has with the controls, and than even mango said that using the box is cheating, come on guys dont talk about ultimate like the worst thing ever without even mentioning melee's stalling and other issues.
goated music selection
Love melee, love the vid ❤️
I love the smash side if the FGC.Yall are always the weirdest and sweatiest players compared to sf and mk lol
I will settle this argument once and for all.
Ultimate players like the simplicity
Melee players enjoy the complexity because they had to earn the right through practicing.
It's a preference thing. Skill over execution multiplied by time equals your ability to compete in said game.
If you take a long time to improve or you don't have the will to lose to get better...melee isn't for you.
Melee is skill based free flow fighting
Ultimate is spacing and timing based, more defensive.
Also steve and Bayonetta warp the game around them and that's filthy work
Great video, I'm going to send this to my friends who don't play melee
Eloquently put. May the algorithm shine upon thee.
Ok i just think if you have someone new to the game, smash ultimate will be more fair and fun for them to learn. Melee plays like dogwater without UCF and the few times outside the smash community ive ran into melee, it doesnt have ucf. Id take trash dash dancing over 2 frame chance of being able to dash dance. You cant dash out of couch without a perfect controller. Shield dropping requires UCF. Ive taught casuals how to do bread and butters in ultimate, i dont believe i can spend the same amount of time in melee and see a new player get any better. Smash ultimate is more fun without commitment, melee is more fun with commitment and each side acts a if this isnt the point theyre looking for. Melee is amazing to watch, ultimate wont lie, kinda kills me to watch 50% of the time.
Melee meta having so long to develop without patches has really allowed it to evolve
I wish Smash 4 had lasted at least another 4 years because bidou was looking game-changing
I personally find L canceling to be easily one of the worst mechanics of melee. It's okay if you disagree y'all I don't want to fight
It would've been cool if Sakurai actually just made moves be auto cancelled instead of the garbage he did in later games
Yeah I don't hate it but I think the game would be better if it was just on by default
Ultimate's universal low landing lag is a bit ridiculous though (especially combined with universal 3 frame jump squats)
I used to agree with you, but I don’t anymore. My old thought process was “removing execution barriers increases the consistency of the mind-to-game transfer.” My new stance is that honestly, stuff being harder just makes it that much more sick when someone pulls it all off seemlessly, and also the execution barriers mean that there’s near endless scalability in the pursuit towards perfection. Also, the more room for error there is in the execution, the more stuff becomes allowable on a practical level decision wise due to the counter play requiring precise execution.
Imagine for example that you could wavedash out of shield with a single button and buffer it during shield stun, so whenever someone hits your shield, you press one button at any point during the shield stun and get a frame perfect wavedash out. This would make so many moves considerably less safe on shield, which would dramatically reduce the amount of moves that could be done in neutral and dramatically buff the power of shield. Even though it’s a technique that’s possible in the base game if your execution is perfect, the speed at which the game is played and the number of precise inputs you need over the course of a game make it less viable, and therefore you can get “unsafe” pressure sequences and pokes due to mental stack and execution barrier. This is part of why melee is considered more expressive than games with easier execution. The speed and the difficulty leave the door open for more choices that would be mistakes if execution of the counter play was flawless 100% of the time
@@Goreblender Sure, but where do we draw the line at that point? Why not take it a step further and make it more difficult to do basic tilts for example? Lets say you made it so after using a tilt or smash attack, you had to press the l button at the end of a certain frame? Better yet why not make L cancelling more difficult and have the player press two buttons instead of one when landing with an aerial? I guess what im trying to say is that while I think execution barriers are good overall for any competitive game, they have to provide some kind of visual reward to the player imo and having depth just for the sake of depth to me is bad game design. Depth needs to serve a purpose for its existence. The problem with L cancelling is that its an artificial execution barrier just for the sake of it. It doesn't actually provide anything to the game nor adds to the fun to the average player.
Lets compare wavedashing to L-cancelling as an example. Wavedashing is not only very useful to learn, but it provides the player with a fun movement option and gives players the ability to express themselves in their gameplay. This is an example of a mechanic that provides good depth to the game. It gives players a visual reward for their efforts. L-cancelling on the other hand simply reduces the landing lag of a bunch of commonly used moves in your characters kit that are fundamental. Have you ever tried to play Melee again without L-cancelling? it feels hella slow and less fun to play. Aerials become about as slow as brawls. It makes the game feel way more like a clunky mess for newer players than it needs to be. L-cancelling as a mechanic actively discourages newer players from wanting to continue playing Melee.
tldr: I'm all for execution barriers and depth to a competitive game, but just having depth for the sake of it is bad design, it needs to serve a purpose and provide a player with a clear visual reward for executing it. Adding more lag to the most basic of moves just to have an execution barrier is poor design, as it makes the game feel less fun to beginners and discourages newer players. Hell even for more veteran players who are use to it like myself, it feels more like an annoying extra button we have to press to just do something so basic that is standard in every other smash game or platform fighter in general.
@@shadownite3378i know what you mean, yes l-cancelling is not exactly deep, but it is an undeniably unique flair to melee that gives it more character and flow. there are a limit to these things like you said however, so i’m glad l-cancelling is its own standalone “automatic motion” we must all abide by
low tiers can also get you a long way, you can really play whoever you want
Oh my God I love melee but couldn't make it through this. It seems like you're someone relatively new to melee. Loving the game is great. We don't have to say other smash games are boring to enjoy the game. Also wave dashing has 10 frames of lag.
The future titles are more restrictive and the meta characters are boring. Project+ is the ultimate smash game.
i feel that games like p+ appeal to players who want to do too much when they r playing, which is why i personally like ult cause its simple and makes a lot of sense, allowing me to tackle other aspects of the game
@@Daniel-ce6mmI'm not big on Ultimate but I agree with you on Project M
I started playing 4xm this year & it's similar to Project M but without giving characters floats or rests etc
Project M has some of the most elaborate & intricate character designs of any Smash but for that same reason it's not a go-to for me
In fairness this video was originally made for his friends but I agree it definitely makes for healthier discourse when we celebrate our game without ragging on the others at all
@@SSJPENGUIN 100%, i dont think the maker was completely dogging on ult, if anything it was like "this is why i enjoy this game more", but for example even tho yes sonic vs steve happens more often than other matches, there is still a vast sea of players that play a wide range of characters that make the game interesting to watch, it feels every new tournament there is a player to look out for and new storylines
Song @ 2:30 ???
humming the bassline by Hideki Naganuma
Darude Sandstorm
3:13 bro yoshi
Great video
i'll keep this in my back pocket for future reference
1:53 thous are not L cenacles lmao short hop laser actually auto cancels. u cannot cancel b moves
The music makes me think of Air Gear
its pretty fun, played every smash game before melee and i ended up liking melee the most very quickly. got ult at launch and played it for 2 years too and hated it ngl
hi
Love Melee, hate L-Cancelling
Hot take alert:
One reason, is because melee (on average) is actually easier than ultimate once you reach a high level.
In melee, you can lean on your mechanical skill to beat worse players.
In ultimate, every game you need to be making better decisions as the skill gap is way smaller.
You cannot flow.
Although, there's no contest, melee is way more difficult once you are at the VERY top of the top. Because there is so much weird tech.
That is the ultimate hot take. The reason that you can rely on your mechanical skill to beat worse players in melee is precisely because it is more difficult. Better players are basically super saiyans compared to newer players in terms of just how fast they are and how much harder they can hit. That’s how it is in any sport. Race Imboden doesn’t need to think to beat you in fencing, only fencers near your skill level need to think.
@@Goreblender yes, but doing that for sets, as opposed to individual games, consistently, is more difficult imo.
Tech can be practiced in a week.
Decision making is something that you need to be better at consistently, every single game of ultimate that you play.
But I know im in the minority for feeling that way.
@@ToniTakuto People have been playing melee for 20+ years and aren't close to perfecting the movement. You can't master it in a week
counterpoint is melee’s complexity means the game is not only more mechanically demanding but the neutral is likewise deeper. you can actually make deeper reads and a more complex neutral symphony in melee: just because ult doesn’t have hardcore punish like melee doesn’t mean it has a more hardcore neutral.
in ult u play ur character vs the opponents character, its difficult until uv learned what every character does then u just have2 predict or react2 1 of their characters fixed options n Do Your Combo, where in melee every single moment has multiple options 4either player. decision making is the Only skill in ult past a very low execution barrier n knowing characters moves bc the rest is designed 2do the work 4u combo routes r predetermined neutral play is guided advantage n disadvantage hardly exist outside of ledgetrapping n true combos. every part is simplified down2 bigger, more impactful decisions by making every interaction smaller than a gamestate change predetermined. a steve lands an uptilt in neutral then its a 1 player execution test until he messes up or kills. decision making in ult stands out as its the only part of the entire game where subjective skill defines the outcome, where in melee its just a small part of the overall skill of a player.
Why do you compare high level ultimate to low level melee? Of course people are going to play like scumbags when there's money on the line regardless of the game. High level melee looks cooler anyway so idk why you even felt the need to make this comparison lol. Also, the reason you like melee is just because of less input-buffering, l-canceling, and.... dash dancing??? There's plenty of reasons to love melee so again idk why this was all you could come up with
Bro didnt mention Yoshi 😭😭😭
He's in the montage 🙌
Or at least there's a caption about Amsa
👍
yoshi?
While Melee is lacking some modern conveniences, it's faster, deeper, and controls better than Ultimate. Many of Ultimate's changes from Smash 4 for better competitive play (such as less recovery on aerials and the directional air dodge) are mechanics returning from Melee. And there's still many, many other things the dev team never brought back from Melee.
I will never forgive them for removing shield dropping or butchering Falcon's movement AFTER Ultimate's public beta
Kinda doubt I'll (regularly) play it but I am excited to see Smash 6 mechanics & changes though
A couple things that bother me with ultimate are the inability to pass through your opponent in neutral and the lack of shield dropping. I think the game could be a lot more interesting with just those two changes
I feel like Melee players make a video like this every year. In the modern day people playing older games is way more common, the biggest example I can think of is the people still playing Mario Kart Wii, or even Mario 64 Speedruns. While this is a good explanation of what makes Melee a unqiue entry in the Smash series it's not like a regular person would look down on you for playing it, nor would playing the new game let you have any less fun playing Melee. If anything being able to say "yeah i even play the old entry" would make you seem like you're more knowledgeable.
I’m with you on the competitive side, but the casual side of the argument is nonsense. Melee feels like total ass to control if you haven’t practiced it for quite a while.
Awesome video
This is good ❤
3:10 What about Yoshi
nice
melee players only play melee because brawl failed. if brawl was even somewhat competitively good, about as many people would be playing melee as smash n64 right now
Now play melee without all the rules that the fans have to put in place to make the game playable.
are the same rules as in ultimate
You still have a have edge cancel shenanigans + on reaction wavelands & slide off opportunities
Just it's more likely a random element will end a game or combo
Still hoards of fun but not ideal if there's money at stake or some form of ranking etc
@@turiip3790 I am talking about having to bad so many strategies like camping and wobbling.
@@kayden2119 I'm glad wobbling was banned but beating an icies player used to feel like a real right of passage 😫
@@kayden2119 ultimate also has a character that has to be ban. The Melee community took like 15 years to ban wobbling, let's see if the Ultimate community does better
Melee players explaining why their 20 yo unfinished game is superior
Because sakurai can shit out another ultimate, but no one can recreate melee
yes
enjoy your lagfest kiddo
20 year old unfinished game with net code light-years ahead of Ultimate's.
@@70ADnow you do understand that officially, Melee has no online right? Melee online is added through a mod that, yes, does run better than Ultimate online, but a mod could almost definitely be made for Ultimate to achieve the same
Melee bad :)
Whatever dude
Ultimate is the worst smash
half of the content is in stupidly expensive and abusive DLC
world of light is a shitty event mode with 4 dollars and 0 ambition
trophies disapeared it was just the DNA of the series
the competive scene is a pay to win where you have to buy steve to anhihilate the free characters