Orania's municipality: How is the Orania Town Council preparing for 10,000 residents?
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2022
- Orania's municipality: How is the Orania Town Council preparing for 10,000 residents?
- Since Orania's inception, 31 years of clean, unqualified municipal audits.
- A unique municipal system.
- Preparation for 10,000 residents
- How does land ownership work in Orania?
- What is the way forward?
All this and more in this conversation: Joost Strydom head of the Orania Movement talks to Gawie Snyman, Head Executive at Town Council.
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Good that English speakers are now also able to listen, considering Orania has "fans" from all around the world. I send my endorsement towards the Orania Movement from Finland!
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Please welcome Afrikaans marginalized by the affirmative action of the ANC government much the same way Israel welcomes all Jews from different parts of the world.
They can go through an absorption center for screening and orientation to your practices as fellow Afrikaans for vetting process, skills and training to make them productive Oranians.
Build them homes which they can pay from their income as citizens.
Groete uit Amerika. Ek ondersteun die Orania Beweging.
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Listening (intently) from France; keep the english videos coming, please
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Im so happy i can listen and understand you guys. Im dutch so I can understand a little bit Afrikaans ❤️
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Julle is Ysters.... Wel gedaan manne.. So lok jul meer en meer van ons om by n wenspan aan te sluit...
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
I ❤Oranje. from a Scottish boer in the Transvaal.
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Finally, an English segment, I understand why Orania needs to have only Protestants because religious divisions, especially in communities will have a hard time progressing. History taught us that when 2 religions clash together, it won't work as good as you'd hope to because religious divisions will also divide the people and everyone's interest.
I might also add about your housings, I think Orania should have a 3-5 storey housing complex with commercial spaces below, like downtown European buildings, in order to accommodate more people with less land area needed.
Good idea
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Orania has plenty of land and open spaces to offer.
Just amazing ❣️❣️❣️🤗❤️
Groete uit Australia...kyk heelwat na julle
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Uit 40,000,000 aanbieders is daar maar weinig van 30 minute lank wat goeie sin maak!
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
@@truthbetold9215
I am classified as a white.
I feed people of colour as well. Madam. And have been for 73 years. But when the sun rises. Or sets. Birds of a feather. Flock together.
I kindly thank you for your contribution.
God Bless!
If you'd like to support Orania, consider becoming a member of the Orania Movement.
Orania.co.za/lidmaatskap
Orania.co.za/donasies
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Congratulations on moving forward. Can you also discuss the infrastructure and how it came about. Based on maslow’s theory of hierarchy, I think it’s important to discuss the basic principles of how people survived at the beginning stages of Orania did people live in caravans or shacks? Where did your water come from, how did plantations start? Have you succeeded from the government of South Africa? Do you need a passport to live in Orania, and do you then need a passport/ID document to get into South African spaces - for shopping etc;.
Better go back to Europe and safe yourself from the inevitable 😅
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
@@truthbetold9215 this place won’t exist in the next 10 years or so 😅😅
@@Dinuzulu1879 The question should be, will South Africa in its present shape still exist in the next 10 years....🤔
@@thebergbok8279 if we can round you up in boats and return you back home to Europe then yes it will be lovely and different 😊
Will you aldo build Retirement. Complexes.. Or cottages for singles?
Pl conslder the elderly who want to get out of the cities...!!
We need more oranias.
Wil graag weet hoe hou julle swart mense uit in Oranja
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Imagine if nazis wanted to create this in Israel 😅
Good for nazis then
@@kshitijsharma5974 the longer you live in Africa the deeper the hole you’re digging for yourselves 😅 as the day will come.. if you think we have forgiven and forgotten then you must be stupid to remain here. That’s why the smart ones left 😊
I am a coloured woman, my father was Scottish, my mother like her father was Scandinavian, both their mothers were Bantu/ black. I am South African born and bred. My siblings and myself grew up in a coloured township mistaken for being white, my two sisters worked as white nobody knew till they immigrated. Are we allowed to visit Oranje, we speak fluent Afrikaans. Our father made vast contributions in the communities till the time of his death. My mother who was one of the Godliest women that I ever knew, is also passed on. Sad to say if I may as coloured people we helped build South Africa. Where are we placed. WHY? are we being shunned, some of the afrikaaners when with some coloured people you would not be able to tell the difference because they look white. That is a fact. Many of us are very decent people. I am advocating for coloured people, donations will come in by the numbers, even if you do not want coloured people there, rescue your own people, it breaks our hearts how the boere children are walking the streets dirty and homeless. Thanks to a gentleman MR Bi Phakati who feeds these boere people on the streets when he sees them GOD BLESS him, he is a black gentleman who also helps his own people, he is not picking and chosing between black and white, from my observation he helps mainly whites. Please help the boere take them off the streets GOD WILL BLESS YOU. Some very skilled gentlemen i watch from his videos.
HELP TOG ASSEBLIEG DIE BOERE KINDERS, DIE HERE SAL JULLE HARTELIKE SEUN, DIT BREEK MY HART OM TE SEEN HOE LEWE DIE BOERE FAMILIES OP DIE STRAAT🙏🙏
Oh please. Israel is a Jewish state situated in a sea of Muslim nations who harbour your type of sentiments for its very right to exist. If they could they would demolish it back to the bare eroded condition it largely was after suffering thousands of years of neglect & ignorance by the people who moved in after the Romans set in motion the Jewish diaspora by destroying all that was of value to the Jews.
Instead of hatred you should give the people of Orania credit for what they have achieved in such a dry barren land. By bad mouthing people as Nazis, who are comfortable with preserving their language & culture is plain disrespectful & smacks of envy.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why they have done this !
After building this country from nothing over 400 years to be kicked out, their schools universities appropriated, their language systematically removed everywhere, towns they founded renamed to fit in with the Africanisation policy of the present government, could you blame them. They are setting an excellent example to the rest of this country which is collapsing around our ears due to all of the many well known reasons which I do not need to list.
@@truthbetold9215 you can follow them back to holland when the time comes 😅
Better go back to holland and build a town there. You are wasting your time 😅 We will push to the the sea😮
So did you push them to the sea?
@@hyperquantum3020 it will happen
@@hyperquantum3020 the west is finished. The 50 trillion dollar debt the US found itself in is the end game. We are aware of this. Sooner or later countries outside of the western world will stop accepting the US dollar as a reserve currency or form of payment. No more printing dollars to buy imports. If you live in the west better get yourself and family prepared. We will deal with them here. It’s all a waiting game.
@@Dinuzulu1879 But why? Why not live and let live? Why the hate from people like you? They dont hurt anyone.
@@Dinuzulu1879 I dont live in Africa, just wondering what the issue is. Its not racist to want to live with people who are like yourself. Its only racist if you are threatening others due to their race. These people doesnt harm anyone, you are the hateful racist here. You need Jesus.
Can blacks do this in Europe
We are not in Europe.
Why are you asking that? You do understand that in South Africa we have 11 different languages and many different tribes. Afrikaners were made here over 470 years. There is not one thing about this town which is not put under the microscope and held to the highest standard and they pass each one. The pursuit of self determination is an international human right. Modern human man, Homo sapien sapien came from South Africa some 160 000 years ago and they started migrating from there up in Africa, split in two some went to Europe and the America's and others went to Asia. These people bought an unproductive piece of land in the middle of nowhere and worked and worked and worked according to their traditions, culture and religion. Nothing wrong with that.
@@fiddlestix6468 question is can I do this I. Europe????
@@fiddlestix6468 Europe would never allow foreigners to have an ethno state
@@kazer353 Comparing apples with bananas will not win you any arguments. Your bad faith argumentative style has already poisoned my opinion of you. Your question makes no sense because you are not a threatened minority in your own Homeland if an African black man is in Europe. They are not escaping racial persecution when they decide to migrate to Europe. On the contrary, in Europe a black African man has every means of support from European Government and NGO's that they could wish for, and they form communities which essentially rule themselves with no interference from police or the natural law of the land which they have decided to occupy. They are encouraged to migrate to Europe, are assisted by NGO's and are made to feel welcome and supported once they get there. What does any of this have to do with Orania? That's right. Nothing. I hope you can find the strength that is inherent in the Protestant Afrikaner, to make a place in your own Homeland which is acceptable to you in terms of standards of living, until then, maybe just watch and learn.
You will need a military eventually. Start an Oranian foreign legion and I would gladly join. Many others would too, I think.