for those curious, this is standard procedure at Southwest Airlines for all engine starts regardless of temperature. At Southwest, they call it "isolate, ventilate". Thanks for bringing this to the sim world's attention. Cool to see more simmers learning how things are done in the real world.
I love these short "Fill in the Gaps" videos you do on top of your more in depth videos as they add more immersive layers into the functions of the aircraft systems. Most appreciated and as always, thank you for teaching us so many concepts and procedures that can only come from a professional airline pilot!😎
Happy you like them! Indeed these are things that I feel would normally get lost in the scope of biggers bids but things that we do in everyday ops. Basically these are things that were totally new to me when I started flying the line after being a flight simmer for years and years. Stuff you just never though about as a simmer but that you think about very much as a pilot. 👍🏼
@@A330Driver Agreed, and I can assure you, we all truly value your approach and commitment to what you bring us all everyday! In fact along with your real world profession & the amount of content you create for YT, I have often wondered if you are familiar with the activity known as "Sleep"! 😉
I'm not even kidding... Just as I was thinking about how to do this correctly, you upload a video on it ... !!! You read my mind. Thank you so much. Very helpful and easy to understand 😊
I did this since some time, but I wasn't aware that the left pack is mainly supplying the flight deck, hence why I let the left pack running while starting engine no. 2. One of the good sides of being a simulator pilot is that you only 'feel' the heat when you look at the temperature indication. 😀
"Isolate, ventilate" is standard procedure for all starts where I work as a 737-800 FO. However... one engine running at idle driving one pack is barely any better. Even after you get both engines started, idle/taxi thrust isn't anywhere near sufficient to cool a full plane on a hot day in Texas (ask me how I know). We have a supplemental procedure to run the APU during taxi (with engine bleeds off and isolation valve open) to provide cooling. Just have to switch it back to normal before takeoff, or you'll accidentally do a bleeds-off takeoff (which actually doesn't carry any risk).
When flying as a passenger I’ve never noticed myself the air getting a little bit worse during push back .. but then again the Valium has usually kicked in by then 🙄
I did not know this, so i learned something new! One other question.. When you are turning the packs off/on during startup does it matter which (the L or R) that you flip first?
Thanks a lot for providing this info to aviation and flight simulation enthusiasts ! Your channel is always very rich of informations well explained for the public. 👍
Thanks for this informational video, This is actually interesting to learn about, I know as a flight simmer, I have turned on the #2 engine bleed as I thought it would help starting the other engine, so I have turned it on, but haven't turned off the isolation valve, not sure if that is possible or just a flaw in the sim version of the airplane. Again thank you for the videos, I am learning a lot from your videos the past couple weeks since I found your channel
1)At wich temperature the isolated Pack operation is recommended? During winter time when it is cold outside, do you use the isolated Pack ops, too? If yes, at which temperature? 2) If you start Eng2 first, would it be possible to supply both packs? 3) What is about SETO when it is hot outside? Are you allowed to taxi with one engine only? If yes, does the APU and its Bleedair need to be on?
We were not allowed to do that. You could do packs on APU, but I believe I needed that only once in my five years flying the plane. Otherwise it's always packs ON.
Nice video! Just an off topic question, did you made the video with the latest build of the PMDG (0072)? I was observing the EGT during the engine start. I have noticed that yours was lets say around 450 deg C and starts to stabilize. In my case I end up over 600 deg C (OAT +25) before stabilizing.
Technically they don’t…the issue is probably that the trigger for the Before Taxi procedure (FCOM NP.21.33) is the ground crew informing the flight deck that they’re disconnected and clear to lower the flaps, test controls etc. Setting packs is part of that flow. This supplemental procedure (FCOM SP2.2) gets the air flowing a bit at least between engine starts.
Great video. I am a member but don’t know where to ask a question. I am flying SPJC - SPZO in the Fenix. I am approaching via DARKI to RNP Rwy 28 (AR) . The airport elevation is 10860. Struggling to do this correctly. Maybe you can do a video on how to do this correct?
If I let the zone temp dials in the auto position, i seem to get around 30 to 40 degrees celsius with bleed air. Is this normal? For me it seems very high for the cabin. And what is the cont duct for? Is this the cockpit control? What settings do you use for the temperature dials?
That's pretty stuffy. In auto mode, you can still turn down the temperature controls for the individual zones. Most airplanes I fly have pencil marks where the "sweet spot" is that results in the fewest calls from the cabin during cruise. I usually set the cockpit zone to about 10 o'clock, and the cabin zones to about 11. "Cont duct" is the temp in the duct to the cockpit. There is no cockpit zone sensor because it's assumed you ARE the sensor.
@@A330Driver oh, okay. So what setting do you suggest? Sometimes I get a Zone Temp overheat warning, mostly during engine start. Isolate Pack reduces the chance for this to happen. Solution ist to press reset and if the error is gone, everything is fine.
I just need some clarity on something. From my understanding, a packs off take-off is used to increase engine power right? If this is the case then why are packs off takeoff performed during derated take-offs( I just watched a video rn of an A350 take off with its packs off in FLX mode)
Yep, though it's normally not needed then as - once the doors are closed - the body temperature of the passengers will keep the cabin warm over the during of the engine start.
Hey nice video. But I have one question: Usually I let the Engine Bleed Valves to closed until the its specific engine is fully running und isolated to prevent Dual Bleed to illuminate. So basically like this: In the beginning ONLY APU and Iso Valve is open. Then I start Engine 2 first, after completed startup of Eng 2 I close the Iso Valve, then I open Bleed Valve 2 and I set Pack 2 to AUTO. Thereafter I start Eng 1, when Eng 1 is started I FIRST close APU Bleed, then open Eng 1 Bleed, then ISO Valve to AUTO and then I set Pack 1 to AUTO. I do it to prevent Dual Bleed to illuminate as stated before already. Of course in the end I could set Pack 1 to AUTO before putting the Iso valve to AUTO, this would work too. But my questionnow: AM I right to try to not let the Dual Bleed to illumiate or is my effort for nothing because there is no big deal in having Dual Bleed for lets say 2-3 mins? My last knowledge about this was if I can I try to avoid Dual Bleed I avoid it. (because the Engine Bleed is stronger than the APU bleed and it could cause in pushing the bleedair "back" into the APU while damaging it.)
Dual bleed at IDLE thrust is no problem. You can basically leave the engine bleeds on throughout the process…just make sure to turn off APU bleed before using engines.
Meh, passenger comfort is unimportant. Let them discover fear and uncertainty and also consciously keep the engine bleeds off until I say they are allowed fresh air😏 I am of course, being sarcastic. Haha.
Hi Emi, I just did a flight with the pmdg 737-800 on the Xbox. Can I just ask why does VNAV come off after I’ve turned on the autopilot after 400ft AGL even thought I had it engaged before take off. Am I not on the right VNAV SPD profile or not following the flight director hence the disconnection of the VNAV mode? Thanks!
VNAV should not be armed on the ground. On the ground the FMC does not have the data it needs to compute VNAV. It can be armed after 400ft AGL but typically only LNAV and autopilot are engaged at 400ft. You then follow the FD up to around 3000 then engage VNAV
for those curious, this is standard procedure at Southwest Airlines for all engine starts regardless of temperature. At Southwest, they call it "isolate, ventilate". Thanks for bringing this to the sim world's attention. Cool to see more simmers learning how things are done in the real world.
I fly for SWA virtual so this is good to know, thanks
I love these short "Fill in the Gaps" videos you do on top of your more in depth videos as they add more immersive layers into the functions of the aircraft systems.
Most appreciated and as always, thank you for teaching us so many concepts and procedures that can only come from a professional airline pilot!😎
Happy you like them! Indeed these are things that I feel would normally get lost in the scope of biggers bids but things that we do in everyday ops.
Basically these are things that were totally new to me when I started flying the line after being a flight simmer for years and years. Stuff you just never though about as a simmer but that you think about very much as a pilot. 👍🏼
@@A330Driver Agreed, and I can assure you, we all truly value your approach and commitment to what you bring us all everyday!
In fact along with your real world profession & the amount of content you create for YT, I have often wondered if you are familiar with the activity known as "Sleep"! 😉
I'm not even kidding... Just as I was thinking about how to do this correctly, you upload a video on it ... !!! You read my mind. Thank you so much. Very helpful and easy to understand 😊
I was recently on a TUI 737 out of LGW and on our taxi out it got so hot, I wish the pilots had followed this tutorial! Great video as always.
Looks like I’ve been using this procedure without even realizing it. This exact procedure is written into my virtual airline’s Engine Start Procedure
better passaenger comfort = less passenger poo = better 737 pilots comfort. The loop is completed !
I did this since some time, but I wasn't aware that the left pack is mainly supplying the flight deck, hence why I let the left pack running while starting engine no. 2. One of the good sides of being a simulator pilot is that you only 'feel' the heat when you look at the temperature indication. 😀
I hope you get well soon Capt. And I hope you don't have any severe health problems. I learned another excellent detail thanks to you thank you.
Super!! Loved this video. This was one on my questions finally solved!! Thank you, have a good one!
I was doing this after seeing you do it in one of your videos - thanks to this video now i understand the concept..😂 thank you captain..
Im a simple person. I see Emy upload a 737 video, I watch, I learn, and like❤
I have always done this for my virtual homies in the cabin. 😅
Good stuff yet again. Didn’t know how that was done correctly.
"Isolate, ventilate" is standard procedure for all starts where I work as a 737-800 FO. However... one engine running at idle driving one pack is barely any better. Even after you get both engines started, idle/taxi thrust isn't anywhere near sufficient to cool a full plane on a hot day in Texas (ask me how I know). We have a supplemental procedure to run the APU during taxi (with engine bleeds off and isolation valve open) to provide cooling. Just have to switch it back to normal before takeoff, or you'll accidentally do a bleeds-off takeoff (which actually doesn't carry any risk).
It's still much better than nothing though. Personally I'm happy once the cooling air from the duct on the main panel is flowing 😂
@@A330Driver True! You gotta do what you can. Ever fly the MAX? Those engines take about 3 1/2 minutes EACH to get started.
I am so glad you made this video. A lot of flight simmers are not familiar with this procedure!
I for once always do that isolation valve technique!
It was New for me THX
Not sure if I learned this from you in the past, but I use it regularly in the summer! Thanks for the lesson!
Nice! Happy to still see boeing content 👌💪
When flying as a passenger I’ve never noticed myself the air getting a little bit worse during push back .. but then again the Valium has usually kicked in by then 🙄
Thank you for continuing your Boeing content! For a moment there I thought you were going to ditch us 738 lovers. :)
Thank you, I always got zone temp warning when I was in the tropical zone. I suppose the procedure is the same on A320.
Nice one, great to always learn something new from your videos. Thank you!
Isolate, ventilate! Great information, thanks sir.
I did not know this, so i learned something new! One other question.. When you are turning the packs off/on during startup does it matter which (the L or R) that you flip first?
Thanks a lot for providing this info to aviation and flight simulation enthusiasts !
Your channel is always very rich of informations well explained for the public.
👍
This was new to me. Tanks for sharing.
Compressed air gets cooled by a forced air cooler then it cools inside when it expands at each vent. No freon needed.
Thank you been wondering about this
Nice to learn something new!
Thanks for this informational video, This is actually interesting to learn about, I know as a flight simmer, I have turned on the #2 engine bleed as I thought it would help starting the other engine, so I have turned it on, but haven't turned off the isolation valve, not sure if that is possible or just a flaw in the sim version of the airplane. Again thank you for the videos, I am learning a lot from your videos the past couple weeks since I found your channel
1)At wich temperature the isolated Pack operation is recommended?
During winter time when it is cold outside, do you use the isolated Pack ops, too?
If yes, at which temperature?
2)
If you start Eng2 first, would it be possible to supply both packs?
3)
What is about SETO when it is hot outside?
Are you allowed to taxi with one engine only?
If yes, does the APU and its Bleedair need to be on?
Could you do a video on how to perform a packs-off take-off in the 737?
We were not allowed to do that.
You could do packs on APU, but I believe I needed that only once in my five years flying the plane. Otherwise it's always packs ON.
@@A330Driver OK, I understand. Nonetheless, if you have got the time, I'd be interested in an APU-to-pack takeoff, too.
Can you do something like this on the Airbus??
No, you can't.
Nice video! Just an off topic question, did you made the video with the latest build of the PMDG (0072)?
I was observing the EGT during the engine start. I have noticed that yours was lets say around 450 deg C and starts to stabilize. In my case I end up over 600 deg C (OAT +25) before stabilizing.
I noticed the same thing. I don't like the new start temperatures.. PMDG said its more accurate but I don't see it on real cockpit videos.
You mentioned that all bleeds should be on during engine start. In what scenario is a dual bleed situation problematic?
I believe that dual bleed is ok if you don't go above idle. Above that you risk over-pressuring the system.
Really interesting! Why is it that you have to wait for the ground crew to turn on the packs?
Technically they don’t…the issue is probably that the trigger for the Before Taxi procedure (FCOM NP.21.33) is the ground crew informing the flight deck that they’re disconnected and clear to lower the flaps, test controls etc. Setting packs is part of that flow.
This supplemental procedure (FCOM SP2.2) gets the air flowing a bit at least between engine starts.
Ventilate, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
😂😂😂
Great video. I am a member but don’t know where to ask a question. I am flying SPJC - SPZO in the Fenix. I am approaching via DARKI to RNP Rwy 28 (AR) . The airport elevation is 10860. Struggling to do this correctly. Maybe you can do a video on how to do this correct?
Can you leave the isolation valve in auto when starting engine 1? Or does it need to be in the closed position to work properly?
Hi on the topic of engine start taking a bit too long in the PMDG, wasn't PMDG working on a custom engine start model? Is that still on the horizon?
Managed to pick this technique up in your previous streams/full flight videos. Is there a corresponding procedure in the bus?
No, in the Bus we can't do that.
If I let the zone temp dials in the auto position, i seem to get around 30 to 40 degrees celsius with bleed air. Is this normal? For me it seems very high for the cabin.
And what is the cont duct for? Is this the cockpit control? What settings do you use for the temperature dials?
That's pretty stuffy. In auto mode, you can still turn down the temperature controls for the individual zones. Most airplanes I fly have pencil marks where the "sweet spot" is that results in the fewest calls from the cabin during cruise. I usually set the cockpit zone to about 10 o'clock, and the cabin zones to about 11.
"Cont duct" is the temp in the duct to the cockpit. There is no cockpit zone sensor because it's assumed you ARE the sensor.
Is it during ground operations or in flight? The duct temperature will be higher in the air to heat up the cabin.
Temperature indications in the 737 aren't worth the material they're made of. Forget them, they show anything but the correct temperature.
@@A330Driver oh, okay. So what setting do you suggest?
Sometimes I get a Zone Temp overheat warning, mostly during engine start. Isolate Pack reduces the chance for this to happen. Solution ist to press reset and if the error is gone, everything is fine.
I just need some clarity on something. From my understanding, a packs off take-off is used to increase engine power right? If this is the case then why are packs off takeoff performed during derated take-offs( I just watched a video rn of an A350 take off with its packs off in FLX mode)
Hi, it's done to have the power in reserve should you need it.
I’ve been doing this on all startups but not sure of the order to then convert back to normal config
During the after start procedure you set the switches as normal.
Follow the same order as you'd during your normal after start procedure.
Does this also work if it’s really cold and you the air con is making it warmer in the cabin?
Yep, though it's normally not needed then as - once the doors are closed - the body temperature of the passengers will keep the cabin warm over the during of the engine start.
Hey nice video.
But I have one question: Usually I let the Engine Bleed Valves to closed until the its specific engine is fully running und isolated to prevent Dual Bleed to illuminate. So basically like this: In the beginning ONLY APU and Iso Valve is open. Then I start Engine 2 first, after completed startup of Eng 2 I close the Iso Valve, then I open Bleed Valve 2 and I set Pack 2 to AUTO. Thereafter I start Eng 1, when Eng 1 is started I FIRST close APU Bleed, then open Eng 1 Bleed, then ISO Valve to AUTO and then I set Pack 1 to AUTO. I do it to prevent Dual Bleed to illuminate as stated before already. Of course in the end I could set Pack 1 to AUTO before putting the Iso valve to AUTO, this would work too.
But my questionnow: AM I right to try to not let the Dual Bleed to illumiate or is my effort for nothing because there is no big deal in having Dual Bleed for lets say 2-3 mins?
My last knowledge about this was if I can I try to avoid Dual Bleed I avoid it. (because the Engine Bleed is stronger than the APU bleed and it could cause in pushing the bleedair "back" into the APU while damaging it.)
Dual bleed at IDLE thrust is no problem. You can basically leave the engine bleeds on throughout the process…just make sure to turn off APU bleed before using engines.
@@FlatOutMatt Hey thanks for your answer. Now I got it.
@@ynL1337 enjoy
Is it normal the PMDG shows really high temperature in the cabin like 40-50°C where it is only 25 outside ?
Maybe not that much. But remember all those bodies also emit heat in a confined space
Yes, that's normal
you said only about hot opperations, but if the oat -30* or -40*, can i use the same?
You could, yes.
And the Airbus A320?
All automated
Nothing similar in the Airbus.
Airlines caring about pax comfort went out with the rise of bizjets and the demise of 1st class. So why bother?
Meh, passenger comfort is unimportant. Let them discover fear and uncertainty and also consciously keep the engine bleeds off until I say they are allowed fresh air😏
I am of course, being sarcastic. Haha.
Hi Emi, I just did a flight with the pmdg 737-800 on the Xbox. Can I just ask why does VNAV come off after I’ve turned on the autopilot after 400ft AGL even thought I had it engaged before take off. Am I not on the right VNAV SPD profile or not following the flight director hence the disconnection of the VNAV mode? Thanks!
VNAV should not be armed on the ground. On the ground the FMC does not have the data it needs to compute VNAV. It can be armed after 400ft AGL but typically only LNAV and autopilot are engaged at 400ft. You then follow the FD up to around 3000 then engage VNAV
Hi, I recommend to open a topic in PMDGs forums or to send a support ticket for that one. It's too complex to handle on RUclips comments really.
VNAV takeoff is a thing of its own, and I believe Emanuel has a video on that already. Normally you do NOT engage VNAV on the ground.
Is there a similar procedure for the airbus?
Don’t think so because when the mode selector is set to IGN the packs are automatically turned off
Not really, no.
Your microphone needs some work.
Could you be a little more precise as to what you'd like to hear improved?
you have a very bad cough recently
Yeah, it's somewhat in it's last stages I hope.