Someone Released an "Official" Ultimate Tier List
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- Опубликовано: 25 фев 2023
- You can download Mech Arena for free here: strms.net/mecharena_larrylurr
In today's Video I look the "official" tier list that was created by Ult Rank, which is also back by StartGG. Ult Rank is striving to be the premier rankings for Smash Ultimate players similar to how the PGR was and to my knowledge being run by most of the same staff as the PGR
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I said it on coney video, but as all smash games get older, having great movement becomes more important than great setups/situational advantages. Yoshi as soon as slingshot was seen got one of the craziest buffs ever. Now from a standing position he can tech chase, dash back, mix up and space instantly. His normals are really good. He's very hard to gimp and with double jump armor he ignores ledge traps and edge guards. His projectiles is fast and confirms and controllable and he has great movement to bat? He just needs results. It was a matter of time.
@@plastickkerorolm4889 I didn't know that but damn that sounds insanely good
Slingshot did buff alot of characters like Lucas but look at Lucas the only top player is Regalo and he's not even that top top tier of players
@AUD yea yoshi can slingshot faster than alot of characters can dash. With that he has drag down back air from it, a Nair that forces tech chase kills, and upair that confirms into itsself and hits behind him, and of course there's just using dair for damage.
I have a take which I have been saying on every other video about that tier list :
I believe Rosalina and Luma are a better character than everyone in B+
I think, especially with this being heralded as an "official" tier list, it's a good time to remember top players still don't know a lot about most characters in this game, so you shouldn't let this list effect you much. Esam, one of the panelists, literally put up a video LAST week where he changed his mind on mii swordie being low tier. Just play who you enjoy, and maybe pick up a secondary you have fun with too.
If Melee tier list still fluctuates overtime even when the game's over 13 year old already I'd guarantee this will go on for even longer (should the comp scene not die out yet). Tons of characters from A to B tier still have potentials that were untouched. No one has optimized Shulk and Pikachu to the point of being broken, Pit has found new recent success under godlike player Zackray, so yeah.
Plus The fact that the lowest this tier list goes is D tier should give you a good look on how overall the roster isn't completely unusable like Melee Bowser, Melee Kirby, or Brawl Ganon. Ganon might've been the worst in this game but that won't stop him from being a good noob stomper for anyone unaware how to fight him.
Ah yes so ganondorf and little mac 😫
I think Esam explained the tier list the best. One of his points was that if you thought a character was within 5 characters of where they should be, then they are fine where they are at.
Ye, I enjoy using Isabelle but even if I use max power she still can struggle against auto pilot characters.
@Emanuel Theodorus melee came out in 2001 why did you say 13 years that's so specific
The Japanese players put yoshi super high which probably boosted him a lot. Apparently the Japanese don't have much of an opinion on Pikachu which dragged down their results, you can tell Americans rate the character highly.
日本だとPikachuはsheikと似たような評価をされています。どちらも最強のポテンシャルを持っていますが、再現性がかなり低いです。
Copium lol, Yoshi has no business being on top of A tier let alone being top tier
@@Bladieblah I'm not coping with anything, that is why he is super high. It makes sense as a top 5 Japanese player is a solo yoshi
@@extonjonas6820 Yoshidora has been maining the character since smash 4 though and competed throughout smash 4, just didn't travel. That's something to be considered, there aren't any new up and coming players (or any players at all for that matter) that get notable results like Yoshidora, compare that to Steve or Kazuya and it's a different story for those characters. Yoshidora is a very good player but that doesn't mean Yoshi is a great character. I didn't even know why I added the "copium" btw, that was unnecessary
@@Bladieblah My opinion on Yoshi is similarish to mine on Pythra, Pythra is obviously way better, and Yoshi has some rough MUs, but I think that the main thing holding characters like them back is that you can find a lot of success with a very simple gameplan, so most people won't even bother trying to figure out the niche stuff or go for more degenerate strategies. Yoshi benefits from a more campy gameplan for example, egg camping to some extent is a viable option against a large amount of the cast and forces them to approach, and I've yet to see a prominent Yoshi do it at all. I think that if Yoshi was fully optimized he'd be around top 15, maybe even a bit higher.
Ike, Zelda, Ridley, Mewtwo should all be a bit higher. Sephiroth should be a bit lower.
Yoshi should be lower, Zelda's current placement is accurate imo
I agree with there being one too many main tier. Top, High, Mid and Low is all we need. Though I do like the lower/higher (-/+) sub tiers as that conveys whether a character is closer to the tier above or the tier under.
its over, larry mastered the content creator thumbnails 😭
Tbh Steve can go in his own tier now lol.
I agree with Fox. Literally a killing machine, until they miss, and then occasionally just die for it
Fox deserves to be above Sonic and Joker
@@EmoryIllustrated yes, definitely. Especially after Light's most recent run
@@dogyX3put g&w in that same tier with steve
That's definitely what I got from it as well. A lot of placements i'd definitely argue with. But not insanely bad.
Idk if Steve is the best: hours later hitstun cancel is discovered
Some things are a bit odd on it but overall I think everyone is in the tier they should be or at least 1 below or 1 above where they should be
I think Light does a lot of impressive combo's with Fox I don't see other Foxes do or the better Foxes on Wifi so I was a bit surprised to hear Larry say there is no execution to Fox. Light has got his punish game very optimized it's scary
I feel like is Mewtwo was Samus’s weight he’d jump a whole tier. Maybe more.
I think if M2 had more high level rep he would get boosted. Pretty much WaDi is the only known player that uses him, but even then it is one of his many characters.
I’d be all for giving him more weight. Either that or reduce the tail hurt box.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl I agree. He has so many amazing tools, mixups, and confirms that I feel are overlooked.
He suffers from the fact that his weaknesses are blatantly obvious, and they also make him inconsistent (big body light weight). Most people see those and dismiss him outright. His kit is ridiculous though.
Heavy Mewtwo without a tail would be top tier
Floatyness/hurtbox changes would probably the best buff imo
*How my opinion differs:*
- Link should be in B+ maybe A-, and definitely better than Toon Link
- Doc should be C+
- I think they accidentally put the S- tier in backwards (except for shulk)
- Swap Wario and Yoshi
- Falco bottom of A+
- Sheik should be bottom of S-
Toon Link mains rise up! Totally not the weakest Link 😤 ✊
So you think G&W is the best S- character?
I also feel like ness is kinda low
@@callinater6133 either him, Palu, pac man, or min min probably. And also maybe Pikachu. I think they should just be in S• tier, and cloud top of A+ or something
Captain falcon, ness, falco, and even corrin could and probably should definitely go up. High tier characters for sure, don't belong in upper mid tier
I play Falco/falcon/Samus. I can agree Falco&Samus, but falcon is unjustified imo. Probably around samus'. Second fastest charachter in the game with the strongest fair is so dangerous
Optimizable Sora feels so far and unstable yet so within reach that it feels but you need just short of TAS level execution for things to work the way you want it, which is to say it is still possible, just play out of your mind basically lol
bro really went the entire video without acknowledging the abysmal ike placement
Honestly, one of the best tier lists I've seen. Everything can be pretty well justified, it's seems like a good mix of results/representation, character capabilities, and meta relevance.
No.
@@joshnoritake3167 arguments?
Nothing can justify Game and Watch being that high
@@willycheez7218 Yeah, G&W being an entire tier above Wario and Olimar is crazy to me
@@Connor_Kirkpatrick Wario shouldn't be any higher than he is though. Character fell off after unnecessary nerfs and loses to swordies in a swordie meta. Characters like him and G&W who lose to basically every meta character and others don't have place in top tier
Larry’s opinions are some of the best
The tiers are divided by statistical clusters, not aesthetics or the opinion of the person who compiled the list. It means the ratings of characters in A and B tiers were numerically distinct enough to justify the split.
Link being in b- just shows how untapped he is still, that character is busted but nobody puts in the time and effort to learn how to play him effectively.
Link is like shulk. He is broken if mastered fully, but it’s very hard to do that, but tbh he should still be in A tier.
I personally would put meta knight a little bit higher but at least now I can say I use a mid tier so if you lose it's a skill issue.
I think ICs will move up or down quite a bit by next year depending on how their reps do
obviously this isn't "official" since you can't possibly do a universally agreed upon list for a game as huge and deep as this.
it will never work simply because the metrics by which people or groups of people use to determine the standing of a character differs and this combined with ever changing results, exploits, opinions and other factors means the game might never be truly and completely "found out". which is a good thing imo. it means all our opinions are valid and YOU DON'T EVER HAVE TO BE MAD ABOUT A TIER LIST
Me and My Friends were just talking About the list and all agreeded About mii swordfighter its way too low
I don't know the reason but i think it deserves go a little up atleast C- tier
Yoshi was the very first character I mained and got into Elite. I put many hours into him. I don't think he's A+ at all. He has too many glaring weaknesses which is why I dropped him. Zelda does seem low. PT also seems low but keep in mind the nerfs. They really nerfed that character and I'm still salty af about it because they did it when I was maining PT and the nerfs are why I dropped the character and will never pick them back up. I would understand maybe some minor nerfs but they went overboard with it.
Put Luigi up to A minus tier. He does surprisngly well against most relevant characters like Kazuya, Steve, Roy, Wolf and just straight up beats Fox. His advantage state is way too damn good and once get momentum with him, hes very scary. His recovery just holds him back really but even that can be managed
Finally someone who agrees with me on Marth, that character is not as bad as people say. Lucina is just more consistent, that is it. He still has the same tools for the most part to handle the same situations.
I think its wild to me ppl still think the inconsistency of the tipper mechanic justifies Marth being like 3 or 4 tiers below Lucina. They have the same exact mobility, frame data, hurtbox, same everything. Yet somehow they can think Marth is that much worse than Lucina lmao
That’s not true. Marty’s play style is completely different than Lucina’s because of tipper. He’s not just Lucina but more inconsistent. He’s is OWN character w a different game plan. He plays much more conservative and spacey than Lucina
@@shadownite3378 At that point it's not even the character's fault, it's the player's fault for not wanting to learn how to space properly with Marth. Which is why I don't really trust any tier list really. Tier lists to me are essentially popularity lists, sure there's some objective reasons why some characters are in higher tiers than others, but at the end of the day, it's all about what characters are being played. Generally speaking, it's not solely the character's fault for being placed in a lower tier, it's also the player's fault for not taking the time to master their strengths.
@@Hardcrafter2807 I dont necessarily believe tier lists are "popularity contests" persay (tho I do understand your perspective). If that were the case however, Shulk for example would be way lower on this tier list since his results dont reflect at all his current placement. I do agree however that i do think people let results get in the way too much of their judgement when the actual matchups, attributes, and general tools of the character should be factored into far more. That said I do think Results to some extent do help give us an idea or at least some kind of picture how good some characters are compared to others. I think say Fox or Steve's results for example matchup well with how good the characters should be in terms of their tools. Im assuming ofc when you say popularity contest you mean results. I think part of the reason Marth's lack of results and the reason people dont wanna master him is simply cause they dony think the pay off is worth it, which yeah I kind of agree with. Why bother trying to master Marth when Lucina is more consistent and a generally better character. Not to say Marth is significantly worse than her ofc but I do think she is better than him by a tier. Marth's tipper is just much more difficult to hit with now and not how it was in smash 4. This is further compounded by the fact the reward you get from tipper on some moves isn't even that much better than if you were to just use the same move with Lucina. if this was smash 4 tipper he'd def be a lot better, potentially even more so than Lucina.
Yes but consistency is the majority of the game-
A tier list is made with tournaments in mind
And when you have to play a character that you could simply get unlucky with 2 times out of ~15 matches for you to leave the tournament
You don’t want to leave anything up to chance
Literally let’s say there was a character that was LITERALLY just a dice
Roll a 1,2,3,4 or 5 and you INSTANTLY win
Roll a 6 and you just lose on the spot
Despite winning 5/6 games FOR FREE. That 1 out of 6 games where you lose (almost) makes it 100% that you will never win a tournament and the character will be seen at bottom 5
Sora is in A minus tier because Japan is based but the rest of the world are a bunch of doubters if the rest of the world knew the truth like Japan, does then sora would be s tier
100K here we come
if I remember correctly the tiers aren't the way they are just for aesthetic purposes. The change in tier indicates where there's a clear drop in how good the pros think a character is.
Ike being so low is WILD. . .
That's what I thought, like... Below Marth?!
He is a very bad character. Not competitively viable
Ike was good when it was early in the games life, but now that people know what Ike wants to do it's easy to play around it. That's why he's probably c-, I think he should be b- personally though.
@@theirv043 not to mention his kill confirms got nerfed so now the he has to fish for stray hits like dash attack to kill
@@puffnstuff7905I'd say his killing is still very good with massive buffs to the knockback of dash attack and up B plus his down tilt is a solid kill confirm starter.
I think diddy is too high, tweek is just a great player
Feel the same way about fox. Fox as 5 is some Light trauma bias.
He's not as good as Palu or Min Min imo
@@RamikinHorde same, fox is easily top 10 but I don’t know about top 5...
I think KRool, Zelda and Plant are not bottom 10, but at the same time their placement doesn't surprise me given their reputation among other things. Don't get me wrong, they aren't great characters and definitely on the bottom half of the list, around C- at best, but I don't agree they are bottom 10. Especially since I feel they are better than a few characters placed above them such as DK and Lucario. Even Doc isn't that bad either. I also think Villager is better than Banjo.
doc is just WAYYYY too exploitable offstage literally j give him mario ranged up b and watch him go directly to b tier
K Rool is mid tier
well there has to be a bottom 10
@@openspaces5263 And? That still doesn't mean they specifically should be down there. Like I said, they aren't great, but for me any way putting everyone in the same tier as Ganon and Mac insinuates, they are on the same level, even with the flaws the other characters above them have, they at least have something. For example, a commonality with all of them is their poor disadvantage states, but even factoring that they at least have a disadvantage state, poor as it may be, whereas Ganon and Mac's disadvantage state are basically nonexistent. And to me, those don't go on the same level. And even so, some characters in C- tier have just as exploitable disadvantage states too, like DK for example. Plus at least KRool, Plant and Zelda all have something they can do, and you CAN do well with them, they are just so underpowered comparatively. But they have something, even as one-dimensional Zelda and Plant can make said one dimension work. (The best Zelda player in the world for instance placed 12th at a major, that feat to me considers Zelda NOT in the same tier, because how could you say that about Mac or Ganon?) They just aren't consistent. For me, I only consider three characters low tier Ganon, Mac and D3 (Doc is arguable) whereas everyone else is Low Mid and above, with low Mid being the least viable (but viable) characters, where I would place everyone who isn't in the Bottom 3. And as a hottake I think Banjo should be lower, but again I can't say his placement is too farfetched.
I also feel it says how balanced Ultimate is in that the worst tier is D, which means even the low tiers in this game would be Low Mid i another, and Low Mid tiers would be Mid in others.
Tbh, a tier list should be:
1: Non viable
2: Viable with a secondary
3: Solo viable
4: Top 3/4/5
There's no need to divide them further imo
That's just not the point of a tier list. Besides like 5 characters a good player can win a tournament solo maining theoretically, that says nothing.
The tier list is for how much work and skill you need for the reward.
@@nahte123456 Well, agree to disagree
Sheik, ryu, and cpt falcon should be higher. Also, imo you shouldn’t base a characters strengths as number 2 when there is only 1 person who plays him.
Honestly I think it's a good tier list overall despite a few disputable placements
I don't know how people make tier lists with 11 sub-tiers when the gap between the very best and the very worst is not even that extreme in SSBU.
Im pretty sure theres a Lucario making waves in Japan.
I'm surprised he didn't talk about Wolf
they should just make 3 tiers: great, viable, not viable (in terms of winning a large tournament)
Too general and doesn't speak about a characters differences in strength. I'd say both Falcon and Pythra are great characters but one is clearly better than the other.
Joker has a lot of losing matchups *says 3
I like to wonder what the tier list looks like in other countries. Like Japanese players are seemingly cracked with most of the roster so it wouldn't be shocking to me if characters that are considered low tier in North America are considered busted in Japan.
Hate to burst your bubble but Japan isn't some godlike region with tons of Leo or Spargo level players, they're not cracked with the entire roster. They will rank characters higher that do well in Japan but not here, like Yoshi and Min-min, just like us they look at tournament results primarily when making their tier list. But being top level is much more player skill based than character based
@@Bladieblah That's exactly what I was implying. Japanese players doing better with some characters than the North American players, thus making the tier lists quite different.
I wasn't trying to say that all Japanese players demolish NA players or anything, just that they have a different mindset and play the game differently.
That dr .Mario statement is right on the money . Even though he’s my main I feel he should be in atleast c tier
I'm disappointed Larry didn't look at the article
I main Sephiroth and agree with the tier list. He's right at the 25th spot. Not broken, but not weak either.
Sheik and Sora are perfectly fine where they are
Kazuya up, Byleth up, Chrom down. Those stand out the most to me.
I think both Kazuya and Byleth should down while Chrom should up, lol. Shows how hard It is
@@norwayguy7649 Yeah its just my opinion. I know this kind of thing will never really be definitive
@@Pizza_Box Facts. At the end of the day, the meta is based on the players picking the charachters
I feel like Sparg0 should BO5 Tea for the content and to stick it to the tier list, or Riddles vs. Leo, Wadi vs. Cosmos, Yoshidora vs. Dabuz, like come on. Free content and fix the tier list lol
100k Larry is his name
The difference between Ultimate and Melee is that every character in Ultimate is viable regardless of where they are in the tier list. In Melee, only the top 11 characters are viable and everyone else below them is useless.
Piranha plant seems like he’ll start picking up sauce later in the meta. His power is unrealized
Some placements are wack but I’m just happy my girl Samus is in A+
Lord knows it was well over due; Poor girl has been midtier since 64.
@@Delightfully_Bitchy More like Low, Mid, Low, Mid, High.
honestly best take i have heard. Definitely agree some of these placements are sus
Larry make your tier list
People have a low opinion on PT because of the fact that Pyra and Mythra basically out class Pokémon trainer in every single way and they’re easier to pick up so it pretty much the typical “dlc privilege.”
its shocking to me that the bottom 3 doesn’t include Doc
Got you with the like and comment bro
1:30 pythra is a character that's as good as the player. I understand
justice for wii fit trainer
Most of s tire I do agree with, but there are some other characters that I think should be higher like I would put link, Falco, bayo, corrin, chrom and maybe the pits into A tire
And personally I would put Mewtwo into B tire
Pit / Dark Pit should definitely be in higher, I agree with A tier.
They did falcon wrong on this one he is easily high tier can delete people in one move.
@@A_Shut-in_NEETuhh no he can’t
@@G0blinM0de yeah nair 1 into knee can kill people at 50-80 percent
This whole video boils down to “___ should be higher”
Why is this considered official? What are the credentials of these creators? Just wondering if these guys are devs or something lol
People will say pikachu is overrated and deserves his placement but if u individually discussed most of the characters placed above him u would prolly say Pika's better
1:41 and then the next day you make a video talking about needing to ban Steve.
how is pikachu still this underrated
i think the fact that this teir list was heavily influenced by the japanese meta is very obivous however i agree with the majority of this list my opinion doesnt matter here but most top players seem to agree also but charcters like bayonetta where her abosule BEST players like lima and bloom4eva live in north america and europe charcters like her are really getting the short end of the stick
Surprised he didn’t mention Luigi or Link lmao
Yeah Link was criminally low. Link is lowkey A+ or S- in terms of versatility, and Luigi is Kazuya but free. Both characters should probably be low S tier.
@@aricockrell4557 luigi is a lot easier to edgeguard compared to kazuya so id put him in high tier (A) but A-
@@goahdejen6176 Nah. Luigi can cruise across the bottom blast zone where almost none of the roster can reach him, then warp to ledge in a few frames. His recovery is better
So who shouldn’t be higher?
I don’t think Cloud is better than Pac-Man
Nairo fan? (I agree)
Or pika
I agree but cloud definitely has more results
@@Chris-dy1cb I think that can be attributed cuz of his simple playstyle. Not really execution or tech heavy. Just back air and limit tbh.
@@Chris-dy1cb spargo is just a god with cloud top players don’t really play pac-man
yink deserves S-, but like the bottom of S- he just has no representation, those that play him show just how good he is
Cloud is too high lol
Remember him
the Big D X grape set, was snake having 0 interaction, pretty much just run > pull grenade > Repeat for 20 minutes.
The lamest match i have ever seen.
Diddy is too far up he's going to hurt himself
No plant is way too high.
People sleepin on swordfighter smh
PT doesn't do well against a lot of top tiers in these lists
YOSHI GET DOWN FROM THERE YOU'RE GONNA HURT YOURSELF
Of course the official tier list had to be the wonky as heck.
Banjo is not c- tier. I would put him B. Lots of survivability, projectiles, disjoints, 2 frames and he can set up
Bowser jr should be in B for sure
Mfw LarryLurr uplaods
Been telling ppl Diddy Kong is top tier, ppl were just delusional to think otherwise.
I'd put Sonic at #2
PT all comes down to how well Ivy does in the matchup. Considering that, I can see why all S tier characters beat PT. Ivy has very few attacks that are safe on shield, is slow, and has bad disadvantage. Charizard is a C- character IMO, who gets destroyed by any character with good movement/air speed. Squirtle is a menace but has very limited kill potential and second lightest character in the game. Not to mention all three Pokémon are terrible off the ledge, have very situational smash attacks, and have certain moves that are downright unusable (Ivy bullet seed, Zard flare blitz, etc.)
Not trying to complain just giving reason why PT shouldn’t be considered S tier.
I agree with PT being a little overrated but saying Ivy has not much that is safe on shield is cap
@@willycheez7218 fair and bair are only two safe moves when spaced correctly.
10 top PT's? Bro wut? Only Beast and Quidd off the top of my head (u could argue beast isn't a top). Ned dropped him, Atelier from Japan favors wolf now, moxi also dropped him. Where is PTs rep in top 100?
Am I missing something to where sonic got into top 4?!
Must have missed the past 2 years of ultimate
TBH, I think Sonic is the best charachter in the game. Look at his kit, what would you change? Charachter is close to perfect imo
@@norwayguy7649Steve has the best kit
@@infiltrate6807 debateable. but its close imo
Aegis should be S-, if not A+. Too overrated
Larry, why is Ike C-? I just can't see it, should be B- at least.
WHAT ABOUT KIRBY?!?!
Ike is criminally low. I get his recovery is very exploitable but thats really match up dependent. If you don’t have a counter he’s actually pretty difficult to edge guard. There’s always the threat of him going for a suicide punish.
Kirby is way too low, atleast c+ or b-
What about Kirby makes them anywhere but low tier
Kirby had good attacks that they can never take advantage of because Kirby might have the worst selection of special moves in the game (coming from a Kirby player.) I have a lot of respect for Sakurai but if Kirby's special moves were all changed (except for inhale) I could see them be so much higher
Seph just isn’t amazing. Who is the best player with him? Tweek? One of the best players in the world and he’s not winning majors with him
Tweek and KEN are the only really good reps using him, but only as a secondary.
I- idk, I still think wolf is light years better than fox, but I'm not a top player so whatever
Larry 100k 🦜
pikachu is top 3 i'll die on this hill
ike is not that bad
What does ike have that other swordies don't
Gunner too low. Sadge. Its kinda unfortunate that capi is the only rep for them, cuz I think people would understand how good they are if there was a top level rep that was willing to switch specials and such.
All the miis are low, Swordfighter is not that bad, i will die on this hill from now on
His boxing is like the worst in the game. If you know how to get through the missiles he's terrible
@@willycheez7218 I genuinely don't understand why or even how people think this. Like gunner's no pacman up close, but they have genuinely good tools for every situation. Pretty good frame data, great range, and really strong versatility. I think if a gunner crumbles when you beat their missiles, that's their fault, not the character's. Also, they got more projectiles than just missiles, made and bomb drop are both fantastic and gunner might just have the best forward air in the game.
@@illford6921 OK, I'm a biased towards the miis, but god damn is sword fighter bad. Not that bad, but like, still bad.
@@VideoCentral-bh9tf No bro. Gunner's boxing sucks. His frame data is bad, his hitboxes are linear. Forward air is decent but nowhere near the best, it's a decent safe poking and recovery tool but that's it. It's weak and never kills. I'm not biased vs miis I actually used to play Gunner and currently Brawler is one of my mains
Cloud is top 20 at most the character isn’t top 10. Lol
It's always crazy to me when someone says that Byleth got the MKLeo effect.