Understanding Orthodox Jewish Anti-zionism | In Conversation with David Biale
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- Опубликовано: 16 дек 2023
- An episode discussing Hasidic/Orthodox Anti-Zionism in depth, with historian David Biale.
There has been quite a bit of public conversation about Hasidic Anti-zionism. In one well-circulated tweet, critics of Zionism touted a gathering of 40,000 Satmar Hasidim as an event that proved the Jewish solidarity with the secular anti-zionist movement. But Satmar was quick to tweet back that they were in no way expressing any kind of collaboration or sympathies with the secular anti-zionist movement. You can see the tweet here: friedavizel.com/2023/12/15/sa...
While there is a lot of controversy and opinions around Israel, and I am completely appreciative of debating the war and many people's positions, I feel very strongly about clarifying the many misconceptions around Orthodox Jewish anti-zionism. And so, after much thought, I decided to discuss this issue with the brilliant historian David Biale (who seems to have a superhuman memory) and he brought so much nuance and insight into the topic. It isn't an easy topic to discuss, especially the aspects of the Satmar rebbe, but I feel like this difficult discussion was handled by my guest with as much objectivity and humanity as I could hope for.
I invite you to check out my other video with David and the book that brought me to him: 'Hasidism a New History' which you can find anywhere where books are sold.
press.princeton.edu/books/pap...
Thank you, Frieda. As a non-Jew, I continue to learn so much from your thoughtful and respectful interviews. I'm always impressed with your thoughtful questions and comments.
Thank you so much for the comment. I'm also learning a lot.
🌳💙🤍🩵🌳🌳🌈🔆😃MAY G-D REWARD YOU FOR THE GOOD YOU DO🦋🦋🌳@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
I'm also happy to see more subscribers to your channel. @@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
I love your videos so much Frieda. Half my family is Jewish and grew up in Brooklyn (although not orthodox) and I grew up to be a religious studies scholar although with an emphasis on religion of the Americas. I have always had a place in my heart for smaller sects and groups but somehow never found a way to learn as much about Jewish groups as I have from you. Thank you for being my virtual tour guide through this community. My respect, appreciation, and understanding grows with each video thanks to your guidance. Sending you and your family my warmest and most peaceful thoughts right now
Oh my that is so kind, thank you so very much!! Sending you warm season’s greetings.
Fascinating interview - thank you!
🌳💙🤍🌳🌳🌈🔆😃🌳🌳🌳🌳@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn 🌳💙🤍🌳🌳🌳🌳
I have to admit - Jews are far more interesting than people of any other religion.
Another epic interview, Frieda. May your channel continue to grow and enlighten Jew and Gentile alike.
Amen, I hope that our oppeness to listening on hard subjects will bring good things.
The rebbe didn’t say the anti semitism quote. When Hubert Humphrey came to visit he spoke in support of Israel and the rebbe smiled and did not respond. Later the Satmar Rav said it was just his way of saying he is not an antisemite
Ahhhhhh THANK YOU!
Two initial comments I would take issue with…
1) By the vast majority of Orthodox tradition, the Zohar was not authored in the 1300’s in Spain. It was from Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, the Tanna from the 2nd century CE, who was one of the remaining five students of Rabbi Akiva. And there is much evidence that Rabbi Akiva was transmitting a tradition that actually is connected to Philo of Alexandria (Yedidyah HaKohen) who was 1st century BCE and contemporary to the Roman Emperor Caligula.
2) Mention of the land of Israel as ארץ הקודש (the Holy Land) is actually based on the Mishnah, Keilim 1:6, which states that the land of Israel is more holy than all other lands. The Mishnah is from the time of Yehudah HaNasi who lived from 135 CE to 217 CE in Israel.
Thank you! This was informative and daring in its discussion of unpopular truths. I especially appreciate the calm presentation demeanor. As a Christian I am pained by any violence in the Holy Land and pained by the suffering of Jewish people.
Sincerely, G e n e
Merry Christmas
Gene, I am too, my heart aches.
I hope you get some more sponsorships. I follow your channel after enjoying the first one I found after a random search for information about Judaism, out of a general interest in current affairs and politics.
Oh Frieda, I have been waiting for an explanation. I have only started the video but want you to know I am so thankful you took up this subject.
It’s such a hard subject to understand, as you’ll see in the video…
Frieda, what I love about your channel is that it not only brings personal experience but also the points of view of experts, which greatly expands our knowledge and capacity to form our own opinions
Thank you very much for publishing your videos !! I support you and love what you doing !! Outstanding !!
Greetings from California :.. I wish you and folks good health , success and happiness !! Much Love ✌️😎💕
Amen amen amen. Love to California!
Shalom, Freida. Thank you for this production. It explained why the Heredi I see on TV protesting Israeli aggression are anti-zionist. I am a convert to Islam and a Jewish teacher first confirmed to me there is only one God, so I am grateful and my Islam has it's roots in Judaism.
Thank you for your comment my friend! It’s nice to find the many ways in which we are all connected. The story of Orthodox Jewish antizionists can be at times confusing!
Thank you for your important work, Frieda❤
The Satmar ravs view was that the land will lead to loss of Jewish life in vain and that causes Hashem insufferable grief and that’s pretty much the narrative today in Satmar as well
Thank you Frieda for bringing this guest on your show and tackling this important topic.
Thanks for making this video. I actually commented a little bit ago after finding your channel that I would love a video like this
You might have inspired this.
Hi Freida, I always enjoy your videos. What a wonderful conversation. Thank you for your dedication to your videos.
Thank you Joe. I always look out for your comments.
Joe, I am working on my next video and thought maybe, since you have given me so many wonderful gifts, I can list you as the sponsor. Can I get in touch with you about that via email?
Super impressed by David's erudition, he is a proper authority in the subject.
Exactly.
Frieda,
First, thank you for publishing this extremely valuable analysis of the complexity of a timely topic, Judaism, Zionism (HISTORY, Sects, etc.). This gentleman is so knowledgeable and analytical, why is he not part of the peace negotions????
I pray that principals who are truly looking for resolution and peace between Palestine and Israel consult with this gentleman's because of his historical , knowledgeable analytical insight!!! This reminds me of the adage " if you are ignorant of the past you are bound to repeat the mistakes"... or words to the effect.
THANK YOU, AND MAY OUR LORD BLESS YOU !
Amen amen amen. I mean, I don’t think peace will come with a brilliant historian from the wester coast of the USA, but here’s to hoping peace can come somehow, and much light and no more suffering.
Honestly. His idea that if israel would say, "we are so sorry, let's put this right" there would be peace just like in South Africa. I know 0 about S.A but israel has tried to make concessions with the palestinians for decades. They've actually evacuated Gaza of Jews for them. And look what they've got in return. No thanks to this guy for fixing our problems. He is nice to listen to on youtube
I understand that the Rebbe of lubavitch did not visit Israel because he considered it halachically problematic to leave eretz hakodesh once one was there.
Interesting theory. In the past before the land of Isreal was astablished many Jewish people went there in their old age to retire and learn Torah. That is one reason the haraidim didn't want to join the army because their ancestors came to that land only to learn Torah
Thank you so much for bringing these issues to our attention. Sadly, one hears nothing in public media and has to search for more information. It is thanks to people like yourself that we can hear about it. So many nuances I was completely unaware of. Fascinating to all of us who are not part of the Jewish community.
Awesome discussion!! Very much needed and appreciated
It's interesting that Zionism as a movement sort of began around the same time that many ethnic groups throughout Europe embracing nationalism and the desire to self-govern. So many cultures, especially in Eastern Europe, had spent centuries having their traditions and languages repressed by colonialist policies of the major empires (Austria, Germany, Russia), and I imagine the arguments for independence were very appealing to many Jewish people. It makes sense that a call for a Jewish state would really get going at the same time.
It always definitely makes sense that the Hasidim would consider this a modern ideology.
That’s exactly it. Zionism was one of several Jewish movements (like the Bund which was a Jewish socialist movement) that arose as part of a mobilization for “the people” and for Jews this ‘awakening’ (or hasidim would call it assimilation/waywardness) also sat in the context of the Jewish people responding to a history of terrible antisemitism.
Of course. As the old empires such as Austro-Hungary and Ottoman, were crumbling, and groups were clamoring for national recognition, Zionism, the modern political movement was part of this current.
It’s important to acknowledge that the rise of European nationalism was accompanied by a rise in anti-semitism in many places in Europe - thus, the Dreyfus Affair in France that so inspired Herzl. Many, many Jews, especially in Western and Central Europe during the late 18th and 19th centuries, either converted to Christianity or secularized in order to fully assimilate into European cultures. This increased the most once Napoleon freed many of Europe’s Jews from ghettos, and gained the rights of citizenship in many places; however, after Napoleon was defeated, the Jews gradually lost their rights in many places. Thus, the rise of Zionism in Europe was modeled on the nationalism of other groups, but was also a special situation that was enhanced by what many non-Jewish Europeans came to call the “Jewish question” - that is, what were they to do with a transnational ethnic group that was not considered part of the “folk” among whom Jews lived. In other words: Jews like Dreyfus considered themselves to be, for example, Frenchmen first; but largely, the French did not share that perspective. This is why, later, German Jews who served loyally as part of the German military in WWI, were utterly shocked to be told, in the worsening of antisemitism between the wars, that they were not Germans, but alien Jews infecting the purity of the German race. It was against this growing alienation of Jews from the communities where their ancestors had lived for generations, that many turned to Zionism. The same was true during the 20th century when Jews from Arab lands were attacked and expelled from their communities in response to the establishment of Israel. Most Jews of those communities had no ambition to leave their homes, yet hundreds of thousands were forced out, on pain of death. Some Jewish families had lived in places like Morocco, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, etc., since before the birth of Islam. Yet, they were told they no longer belonged in those places. It’s little wonder that these Jews of Arab lands, and their descendants, who had nowhere to go but Israel, are now among the most politically conservative Israelis. So nationalism was influential in the rise of Zionism, but it didn’t grow in a vacuum.
BTW discussions like the one in this video are almost always Euro-centric, and ignore the very important role played by Mizrahi and Sephardi Zionism today. Without taking this now-majority Jewish Israeli population’s experiences into account, we will never be addressing the full picture of Zionism and Palestinians.
@@Historian212 Great comment Historian 212. I'd be curious to learn more. Advice?
It was a movement that swept away many young people from their religious families and played a big part in the abandonment of religion, alongside socialism and communism. It’s a big reason why ultra orthodox communities never embraced it.
Just subbed! Love your channel! Thank you for all that you do! 💜
Thank you, and welcome!!
Just to add the Lubavitcher Rebbe was not a anti Zionist on the contrary, he was pro Jewish, and also considered the land of Israel to be holy (and not to give any of it away). It is well documented that political leaders and military leaders met and sought advice from the Rebbe as well.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was an anti-Zionist who rebuked every Zionist he met and held meetings with Mubarak and Natan Yellin Mor
Thank you from Australia.
I have learned so much from your videos.
Thank you Frieda! I only discovered your channel today and I’m very glad that I did. This interview was so very insightful, I look forward to seeing more. Shavua tov from a yid in London
Thank you so much for this video! I was totally confused!
Highly informative as always. For many years I thought the fringe Natuori were Satmar itself. Thanks for this clarification.
Thank you for sharing a great interview with Professor David As always. What makes you special is your sensitivity and knowledge. Do hope you can get sponsors as you have a unique perspective and calmness that is very appealing. Thank you
Thank you for this excellent episode.
If Dr Biale happens to be reading, I would appreciate if you could point to any chabad literature or sentiment that points to the modern state of Israel being a messianic foundation. I have never heard of what was discussed at 38:30, that the modern state is the foundation of the messianic kingdom that, presumably, meshichistim believe the Rebbe will rule. Is there any work by this Ginsburg we could read?
Thank you again.
Thank you so much for this very very interesting discussion !
Frieda, EXCELLENT interview. So important and timely.
Thank you for your excellent, balanced & enlightening discussion. It was great to hear from two Jews who can accept & understand the need for a reconciliation within the Holy Land of Israel.
The examples of Northern Ireland & South Africa, may be encouraging bell-weathers to show that even the very deepest of rifts might be bridged, if there is a strong will to make a lasting peace. As a Brit..I accept my own responsibilility for the mistakes my nation made following WW1 & WW2.
Peace be with everyone in Israel & every Jew across the globe.
Shalom
Thank you so much for this indepth, nuanced interview.
What a very interesting and inspiring interview. Thank you.
Thanks a lot for an interesting interwiev. I enjoy listening to you two.
Another fascinating video. Thank you! I have been straining my eyes and hitting the pause button to see what books you and David have got lined up behind you. Could be another good video - book discussion with recommendations (I have the New History!)
Great idea. Will work on it!
Thank you so much for doing this interview. The anti zionism philosophy is so confusing. Now I understand a little better. I still don't agree but I get it. Blessings to you and your son throughout the new year.
Blessings to you too Linda. I hope to try to cover this a bit more as I feel like it's such a confusing topic and there's so much to learn.
Very informative! You know: great as always. 👍🤗
Much thanks Frieda for the wonderfully intelligent dialogue and insight provided
Great interview. Thanks.
Thank you for this very informative video. Up until a few months ago in my 68 years I knew little to nothing about Judaism other than watching a 30 minute sitcom with say a supposed Jewish mother in it. I've now watched quite a few of your interviews which I've found very interesting and this one has helped me a lot in understanding the current situation in Gaza along with some great history lessons.
You know your videos are the best on youtube and as I say every time fantastic thanks for your hard work
Thank you for watching my friend.
Excellent. Interesting and informative. Thank you!
Frieda, I cannot express enough what an amazing and significant conversation this was!! Thank you, thank you.
Frieda, have you considered setting up a Patreon? I think having a Patreon can be a bridge (and a safety net) to more followers -> sponsorships.
From what I’ve seen, it’s very hard to make money with Patreon. The number of people who will actually become patrons is very low. “according to Patreon's research, the average creator is able to convert between 0.15% and 0.75% of their total RUclips subscribers to paying Patreon contributors.”
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynwow. Re: patreon ... that's very disappointing
I love your videos because it’s very informative and not passionate💯keep it up🙏
Frieda, you did not put the Sunday at 12.30 pm tour in your schedule for 2024 ? I wanted to book for a Sunday (Friday is utmost challenging for people outside NYC) in February. Let me know if you intend to give tours only on Fridays from now on, thank you
I honestly haven’t figured it out yet. I was thinking of doing some Sundays and some Fridays because I like both those days for tours. What date were you looking at?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I was looking for Sunday Feb 4, as I plan a long WE in NYC from Friday evening to Monday afternoon. Too challenging for me to be at 11 am on Friday, barely make it for Shabbat …
I found a really good lecture on this subject on RUclips: "Shaul Magid, "The Political Theology of R. Yoel Teitelbaum, the Satmar Rebbe". "Dr. Shaul Magid is a Fellow of the Kogod Research Center at the Shalom Hartman Institute of North America. He is a Professor of Jewish Studies at Dartmouth College, where he teaches Jewish Studies and Religion, rabbi of the Fire Island Synagogue in Sea View, NY, contributing editor to Tablet Magazine and editor of Jewish Thought and Culture at Tikkun Magazine. He is also a member of the American Academy for Jewish Research. Shaul received his rabbinical ordination in Jerusalem and his PhD from Brandeis University."
actually as part of my research for this segment I read Magid’s Tablet Magazine article on the Satmar Rebbe’s anti-zionism. It was very interesting.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Hoping you will write a book based upon all of your research!
There are many published responses to the issue of 3 Oaths. Here is a link to well known one. chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8_%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9D.pdf#filelinks
39:42 - I was very surprised to hear Mr. Biale state that Neturei Karta is an offshoot of Satmar, so I looked them up on Wikipedia (I know - not the best source, but certainly the easiest to get to quickly and with many references). It says this about the origins of this group: "Generally, members of Neturei Karta are descendants of Hungarian Jews and Lithuanian Jews who were students of the Gaon of Vilna (known as Perushim) who had settled in Jerusalem in the early nineteenth century." I'd love to see a reference or two to support the contention that Neturei Karta are associated historically with Satmar.
Yes Wikipedia is right. It’s a little complicated. Satmar and NK were sort of allies but then when NK went too far, the Satmar rebbe rejected them. So while they are not REALLY an offshoot of Satmar, they were in alliances and sort of one the same page as Satmar, and appreciating the Satmar rebbe’s writing on the topic, until the Satmar rebbe rebuked them for allying with anti-Israel groups.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Thanks for the clarification.
Fascinating, thank you. I’m going to read the book IYH
thank you Frieda. l learn some much from your videos. This video answered so many questionsl had.
Thank you very much for sharing your insights and wisdoms !! Greetings from California and I wish you and folks good health, success and happiness !! Shallom :)) peace be :))
Thank you so very much- really appreciate it!
Great presentation! Just ordered the book!
Let me know your thoughts after reading.
Love your channel Frieda
This man is extremely knowledgeable and well versed in this area. Just a correction, that tweet you refer to of Satmar distancing themselves from the Neturei Karta faction has no actual affiliation with the satmar chassidus. Satmar would never use twitter to send out a message. Though R Aron (one of the Satmar Rebbes) did mention them in one if his speeches and condemned them.
I have been wondering who the people behind the Satmar twitter accounts are, although they seem to loyally post updates on the rabbinic court, so it kind of sounds official (like we see from other sects.)
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynSatmar HQ is NOT a Satmar account. And in the same speech, by the way, the Satmar Rebbe blamed Oct. 7 on the sin of Zionism.
Your channel is amazing
Outstanding.
Another lecture on Satmar Hasidism on RUclips: "Satmar Hasidism: History, Ideology, and Sociology".
The "3 oaths" were never Halacha its Aggadah. No Posek brought it down as Halacha. Even Rabbi Zeira who said it himself went to Israel later and even fasted a number of fasts to "forget the Torah he learned in the galut". Even if one would address it as binding in anyway the 3rd oath or part of the agreement was violated by the nation of the world (pogroms, Holocaust) thus totally freeing Jews on their part as well.
Thanks for this, appreciate it.
@FriedaVizelBrooklyn To add the Satmar Rebbe was probably looking for something to oppose the secular Zionist movement and what he perceived as danger (even moving to what was perceived as hostile land surrounded by hostile people (Arabs), thus a "source" was needed to be found to stay in Europe at the time. History showed otherwise but perhaps that was the Call at the time and what was thought of to be the safe thing to do at the time (again History and the holocaust proved otherwise)
If I recall correctly, our knowledge of the three oaths comes to us via the takanot of Ezra and the men of the Great Assembly.
Consequently, they are taken in that context as “Divrei Sofrim” and are binding according to Halacha.
(Emphasis here that Ezra and the men of the Great Assembly were returning from Bavel to resettle the land of Israel!)
Thank you so much for this video.
Hi Frieda! A friend and I (non-Jews) have discussed recently that we both don’t understand the ‘reasons’ for anti-semitism. How we can begin to understand?
There's a great book by dennis prager: "why the Jews?" about antisemitism. You can start there...
I don’t understand it either. I don’t understand a kind of deep stereotyping so negatively a whole group of people. I feel like it’s there in a lot of people’s minds though.
You too can start to understand it better by reading the book... btw from a religious perspective this was never an enigma. Jewish sources take it for granted that antisemitism exists and that it started going back to Sinai... and this was the traditional Jewish view for millennia... only non religious Jews in today's era bang their head in the wall not being able to understand this phenomenon...
Henry Abramson has some videos on it.
From a religious perspective antisemitism helps keep us distinct as a nation. If October 7 is any indication this still holds true.
I am not Jewish (Christian), but I very much enjoyed this talk and a look into Jewish lives, practices and history. Thank you.
@JM-lg4ed WHY Didn't YOU Take this opportunity to SHARE your FAITH & BELIEF in the ONE & ONLY JEWISH MESSIAH/ YESHUA HAMASHIACH/ CHRIST JESUS The LORD ??!
I find this so fascinating
Hi Frieda. I just love your channel. The first time I encountered you was through one of your videos with Pearl. I loved your Pearl videos so much that I've moved on to binging your other content. Please give my regards to Pearl - she's one of a kind. BTW, I'm not Jewish; I just enjoy learning about the cultures of different people.
Thank you! Pearl is indeed a gem! I hope she'll be back soon. I'm trying to convince her!
I appreciate the history and conversation in this video. I'm glad that the nabka was brought up, and was very interested to hear about Jewish obliviousness or rewriting of the Palestinian trauma. I do still want to push back against the wording behind the idea that some/many Palestinians abandoned their home "voluntarily". This is more related to our broader way of fostering indifference to refugees from any conflict. Saying things like "they voluntarily left" allows us to picture the circumstances as a sort of white flight: that people who didn't like their demographically different new neighbors sold their house and relocated elsewhere-- wealth and status unaffected or even boosted from the choice. But refugees do not get to retain any of their wealth or status. If someone feels the need to lose or risk losing everything --their home, their wealth, their profession, their community support system-- for physical safety, it is wrong to use the word "voluntarily" to represent that choice.
In America we often simplify "terrorism" to mean "senseless violence out of spite", when the intended strategy of terrorism is not the direct victims of the violence, but the community that is terrorized emotionally. And even if that terrorism was conducted by a minority group, the majority has to accept the guilt of welcoming its benefits. That massacred community mentioned, Deir Yassin, was immediately developed into a suburb for Orthodox residents.
I recognize that this video is not about that side of history, but I think we still need to educate ourselves on how to see others' trauma, and from our side of the conflict the Palestinian perspective is far under-represented. That leads us to be thoughtless about their trauma with our choices of words, like "voluntarily."
Such a powerful comment, thank you. The right of return for Palestinians was immediately taken away, many of their homes and towns were blown up to the ground as we continue to see today. Their flight was not voluntary, because they had every intention of returning and many many were executed by zionist militias.
All colonization is traumatic to oppressed Indigenous people. Anyone not Indigenous to the U.S. and not a descendant of formerly enslaved people is a settler-colonist. There is an unfortunate almost complete erasure of Indigenous people who lived in the Americas for thousands of years before colonization. The Palestinian people are Indigenous to their land as well. It's because of the Christian oppression that Jewish people have been oppressed in Europe and elsewhere. The origin of Judaism is via Abraham who was from Ur which is in modern day Iraq. Although their religion began in that area, they were not the only people occupying that land. There are many Christian Zionists who would love to occupy Jerusalem and usher in the End Times and Rapture as well. Many people including Neanderthals, thousands and thousands of years ago, occupied Palestine. If not for the historical intolerance of Christian communities, Jewish people would not have been forced to settle in Palestine and displacing Palestinians from their homes.
There is no obliviousness or rewriting from the Jewish community about Arab attempt to annihilate the Jewish state!!
There is however a massive rewrite by Arabs as to their attempt to victimize themselves when they were the aggressor!!
Shame on you.
@@gnostic268
Talking about colonization... thanks to ethnic cleansing of Middle Eastern Jews majority of Israelis are of the Middle Eastern heritage. 900,000 Jews were expelled from Muslim countries of the middle east majority of them ended up in Israel.... and do I need to mention that Jews are a lot more ancient in the region than Arabs are.... after all Arabs are Arabs they came from Arabian Peninsula 1400 years ago...
The holiness of the land is certainly an accepted concept in the Mishna/Talmud. You are simply in error here. It is also true that the zohar is a mystical book an thus focuses more on elements of holiness etc.
Shalom Frieda viezal best wishes from a Persian chabadnik I salute you for your good job hashem bless you and may hashem bless eretz yisrael amen 😎🇺🇸🇺🇸🇵🇰🇵🇰🇮🇱🇮🇱😉♥️♦️❣🇮🇱🇵🇰🇺🇸😍
Persian chabadnik is a first for me! And amen to the bruchos.
He first says that the term eretz hakodesh is found in the Torah one time @5:20
So very interesting.
According to Hasidim, the Zohar was compiled by Rabbi Shimon and his disciples around 2000 years ago and was just rediscovered and published later on.
That is the normative Orthodox view; by no means specific to Hasidim.
Frieda, I was relieved that you asked the question about the Nakba and that your guest suggested that the state of Israel might acknowledge that this was indeed a catastrophe for Palestinians who were largely a pastoral community living in hundreds of small villages throughout Palestine before they were either driven out or terrorised out by the Irgun and the Haggana. And, prevented from returning. For a non-Jew like me, the notion that the Hasidic Jewish community wouldn't know about the Nakba, which was pivotal to the foundation of the State of Israel, seems utterly astounding. As a resource of understanding and learning about the Orthodox Jewish community, I find your posts really informative and your guest David Biale's answers to your questions very also enlightening. Best wishes.
If you look at the comments, you’ll see that some people took issue with me asking about the Nakba as they feel it is not a Jewish notion / or that it’s a simplistic narrative of history / etc. In other words, the Nakba which features greatly in some narratives of the Arab Israeli conflict, seems very insubstantial in the narratives told by many Jews I know.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Frieda, thanks for taking the trouble to reply, I really appreciate it. And yes, as Moses said when he came back down the mountain 'Guys, perspective is 9/10ths of the law' Well, actually, he didn't, I did, but you know where I'm coming from 😉. Take care and I'll check out your site again for sure.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynthis is a weird take, I live in Israel the only ones who stick to the false Nakba story are those who seek the complete annihilation of Israel and establish an Arab colonial state instead - ie Arabs who now falsely refer to themselves as Palestinians and whose entire identity is rooted in pan Arabism colonialism Jew hatred and opposing any and all Jewish sovereignty.
Proper Arab Israelis do not hold that view.
And btw chardal mean " mustard". I remember when the acronym was coined. It was a joke
That theme of the more religious Jews in the first century such as the Essenes who felt that the Temple built by Herod was polluting the land and kept themselves apart.
Oh how touched I was when Mr Biale got choked up at 29:45
Thank you, Frieda and David! This is such a great, nuanced, exploration of the topic. I'm a mostly secular, left-leaning, Jew, who is often deeply disturbed by Israeli political/military actions. At the same time, I defend Israel's right to exist and am resentful of the weaponization of "anti-Zionist" Jewish voices by people who don't understand what those voices are really saying or how to properly contextualize Jewish "anti-Zionism" in a historical/cultural/religious sense. This conversation is a very welcome contribution to the discussion!
Question: if you don’t believe in God, are you still a member of “God’s chosen people”? How can you rationalize the existence of the state of Israel when it was founded on a “return to the homeland which God promised them”. How can you, and other Jews, say with certainty that you all descend from the 12 tribes of Israel? The choir wants to know 🧐🧐🧐
Secular Jews definitely know that we descend from a people who lived in Judea. Until the 19th century, our observant ancestors mostly believed in the Torah which purports to describe our origins. We are are allowed to question the Torah without detracting anything from our well established history (starting from around 928 BC).
How much do you know about your ancestors? Yeah, I thought so.
@@anatoliagolden-hall4553 A) I didn't say I didn't believe in God, I said I was mostly secular. B) My defense of Israel's right to exist has nothing to do with Jew's being "God's chosen people" or even with Jews' historical rootedness in the land (the latter of which is a historical fact, as my Sephardic ancestors who were custodians of Jerusalem's Jewish community going back to at least the early eighteenth century could attest). I believe Israeli Jews have a right to some form of a state in what is now Israel, mostly for the secular and pragmatic reason that they have no other country to call home. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, often descended from several generations of Israeli-born Jews and 90% have no other nationality. There are entire Jewish cultures that exist nowhere else on Earth. So, no, I don't defend any "God given" right to the land, nor do I defend many of Israel's policies towards Palestinians, who also deserve a state (not at the expense of expelling Israeli Jews from theirs). My disagreements with Israeli policy and my non-alignment with zealots of any kind do not preclude me from defending Israel against those who would rather see it simply erased from the map.
With due respect to your guest, Frieda, how he presents traditional Orthodox teaching about the three oaths, the unfolding of the redemption and also the Chassidic view of both Reb Yoel in ויואל משה and Chabad at the time of the 5th Lubavitcher Rebbe, Shalom Dov Ber (like is stated very clearly in volume 1 of his Igrot Kodesh, letter 130) is not accurate.
He has data but it lacks understanding of those texts.
Already from the time of the Vilna Gaon and later the Alter Rebbe, there was a steady and increasing immigration to the land of Israel.
The idea of the latest Lubavitcher Rebbe not making aliyah is also in keeping with the teaching of how the redemption will transpire according to the Alter Rebbe.
"Already from the time of the Vilna Gaon and later the Alter Rebbe, there was a steady and increasing immigration to the land of Israel."
I'm curious, are you saying David doesn't agree with this? On what basis are you saying that? His book goes into many gedolim that made aliya over the years well before zionism took off.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Perhaps it’s the way he expressed himself in the video. But it sounded to me like he is presenting the modern (secular, Jewish historical studies viewpoint) from the secular University perspective. That school of thinking tries to create a (false) break between what Torah actually teaches and what they view as rigorous, “scientific” studies. In Israel, that is the Hebrew University crowd. They are good to use for getting access to manuscript collections, but in terms of Hashkafa, I wouldn’t recommend relying on them.
I watched a video with one of the Naturei Karta rabbis talking to a Muslim audience somewhere in the US (maybe in NJ), and I was surprised that he actually spoke quite passionately about the Deir Yassin massacre. I always thought that NK's perspective is entirely religious and that they don't care very much about the Palestinian perspective.
Some people are cynical about these sympathies. I can see them growing out of a lot of time spent interacting and being in circles where those concerns are aired. In a way, they know what to say they feel for. But in reality it's really all about waiting for the Messiah before the land is theirs. I don't know if I'd take their sympathy seriously. I saw someone say that the founder of Naturei Karta, Amrom Blau, was the only one who truly cared for the "Arabs" (what they were called) and not just to create alliances.
It really is all performative. I know them very well.
Awesome 😁👍🏼🙏✡️
Podcast version link: www.spreaker.com/episode/58020694
Talk to The Quartering about getting a sponsorship from his Coffee Brand Coffee. He is sponsoring other channels to help them out.
I’ve never heard! I will have a look, thank you.
One of the first Hasidic groups to go up to Palestine (under the Ottoman Empire)/Israel were R' Menachem Mendel Horodoker and R' Avraham Kalisker. R' Shneur Zalmen of Liadi almost went with them, and then stayed behind, but he created Collel Chabad, which is the oldest tzedaka of Chabad, to support them. They created a settlement in Tverya (Tiberius). He mentions Dovber, he should have said Sholom Dovber (the Rebbe Rashab), that's who was anti-Zionism. Dovber was much earlier, and he created a Chabad settlement in Hevron.
🌳💙🤍🌳💙🤍🌳🌈🔆FRIEDA:: YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL + BRILLIANT 😃THANK YOU FOR ~ “Understanding Orthodox Jewish Anti-Zionism | In Conversation with David Biale”🦋🦋G-D BLESS 🌳🌳
You should see shnayor burton, he goes through this in a Torah lens.
balfour declaration didn't appear in a vacuum
In time of war it wouldn't be bitul torah too...
But yes everyone sees how we need each other.
This was very interesting, Frieda....I have myself gone from indifferent to against and now for in a short 65 years. I think that is typical of many Orthodox of my generation. Thanks again.
PS - Have you ever thought of doing something on the Karaites? I cannot figure out who they are exactly? I think that some are in Israel, so they might be Zionists.
I don’t know much either and I’m curious! I will see if I can find out more!
I have heard a lot of different rabbis proclaim that the holocaust was a punishment for all kinds if sins, ranging from satmars who blame zionism, to religious zionism who blame the chareidim for NOT being zionistic and going to Israel before the war. But also including rabbi avigdor Miller, whose children published his views on the matter posthumously, and rav ovadia yosef who upset many ashkenazim because the holocaust happened mainly on ashkenazic communities. The fact is the Torah lists a whole bunch of terrible curses in devarim 28 (along with blessings) and it says if you will not listen to G-d and keep all the mitzvos .... that's what will bring the curses. So yes, as the historian says- none of it is news. There are rabbis who insist that " we don't know why the holocaust happened" and really we don't, but I often suspect that this group of rabbis tries to be positive and to say things that will inspire people rather than turn them off- just my feeling...
I heard many years ago a conversation purported to have taken place between the Satmar Rebbe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
The Satmar Rebbe told the Lubavitcher Rebbe that he had heard Above that the Holocaust was a judgment from Above following the principle of Measure for Measure and Reward and Punishment.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe replied to the Satmar Rebbe that he had heard that wasn’t so, meaning it pertained to something completely different.
What the Rebbe was pointing to is that the traditional teaching concerning the beginning of the final redemption, including the “birth pangs of Moshiach” are what we experienced as the Holocaust. They were decreed long before any kind of transgression by the generation and do not relate to judgment.
This is similar to the idea that prior to the creation of Adam HaRishon, the Torah, which preceded Creation, stated that Adam sinned and was exiled from the Garden.
Our only perspective is awe, love, respect and mercy on those saintly Jews who died sanctifying G-d’s name.
I think it's a long-lasting change, speaking of the different Jewish groups mending their divisions, that will last due to the roaring antisemitism.
I hope so!
It suits you. Also good makeup (look at what I pay attention to in addition to your highly intellectual content) Best
ha ha!
Don't support the state.
But we support the safety of Jews.
The Rebbe didn't go because it's a question in jewish law to leave Israel. And he probably got instructions from the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe to stay in thd US where he can have more affect.
Also once land is owned by a jew in E"Y it can't be given away because it's our inheritance collectively, even those not born yet.
This is all based on What our Rabbaim have said and Halacha
As a Rabbi who lost a job in Zionist synagogue for my views I would be willing to make an interview with you on this.
Good on that synagogue for not allowing a self hating Jew as their rabbi!
Why do you assume he's a self hating Jew? @@m.s.6586
On the point of the anti Zionism mellowing, interestingly the secular Zionism in Israel mellowed as well. They may in a certain sense have mirrored them.
That's interesting to hear. How so?
I don’t have the data but it seem that Zionism today is less of a passion for secular Israeli youth and a lot would happily move abroad for economic opportunity as shown recently in a poll, ( I don’t have another older poll to compare too) I could see the opposition movement deriving some of its strength from having an “opponent”
As to the idea that eretz yisroel was not considered the holy land till the crusaders called it so- ya- if that is true its just a question of semantics. Anyone recalling the Torah, tehilim, midrash cannot miss that eretz yisrael is a very special land for jews and a land that both our forefathers and G-d loves. I was just saying to a satmar relative who was knocking zionism that in her zeal she completely obliterates the fact that yes G-d gave us a Torah but He also gave us a land. Its part of the deal
I *do* think his comment was about semantics. That's how I heard it.
He seemed to have gotten interested in the particular language of 'eretz hakodesh' and tracing its origins. I think people are misunderstanding him to have said that the concept of Israel as a sacred Jewish land began with the Zohar. I heard him looking at the origin of this particular phrase. There's no doubt that Israel has been sacred to us Jews from well before that.
YAHWEH Sent HIS "only begotten SON"; 'GOD IN THE FLESH 'IN HIS INCARNATION' = YESHUA HAMASHIACH/ JESUS THE MESSIAH/ CHRIST JESUS IS LORD & THE ONLY TRUE JEWISH MESSIAH. READ: ISAIAH Chapter 53, & Other Bible Prophesies THAT REVEAL YESHUA HAMASHIACH as LORD & SAVIOR.
@@Diligent-dp7gi learn hebrew and read the Torah from beginning to end and you'll change your mind
The discussion of the Haredim joining the IDF since the Gaza attack confused me. Did Dr. Biale mean this was a call to nationalism (to protect the nation) or a call to protecting the nationality? I think there is a difference between suddenly protecting the State of Israel to protecting the Jewish ethnicity. Jews protecting Jews doesn’t necessarily mean Haredim supporting the state.
Jews protecting Jews might not mean Haredim supporting the state, but it comes close to it. Plus, traditionally a lot of Haredim had a special animosity for the IDF as the Zionist army and any sympathies towards the IDF is a mellowing of an anti-Zionism, I think.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn also worth mentioning to the newer generation who is acquainted with a modern version of Zionism that post 1948 Zionism meant forced assimilation for Haredim, Sephardim and Yemenites.
Every Satmar person is thought at school the stories of Yaldei Morocco and Yaldei Temen
Yep, by the way you can see a bit of that in my review of my Hasidic education, where I showed that I learned that zionists drew Jews from religion.
ruclips.net/video/ZRhOovJLcBY/видео.htmlsi=dSbG5XjzqmUHwi8O
I must comment on a few things here. the most important, I think its an insult that Mr Biale refers to the Satmar Rebbe Ztz"l as Teitlebaum, firstly he was an ordained rabbi and Rabbi of a town before he became a leader of Satmar, same goes for the Lubavitcher Rebbe.secondly, for his charitable causes alone, he should be respected and called Rabbi, he would have helped Mr Biale if he would have been in need, even though he is vocally against him. Most secularists would call him Rabbi. Secondly, I dont want to go into details, as we are in very sensitive times, but the main reason the The Satmar Rebbe and many Hassidic groups were anti zionists, besides the relegious aspect, is the failure of the zionists to help save Hungarian Jewry when they had oppurtunity.
I know teitelbaum sound insulting, but it is the way academics refer to each other.
This is a great video. I'm anti-zionist (and anti-fascist, and anti-antisemitism) but decolonial globally so it's not targeted at Israel but is a universal political view held, rooted in a collective liberation from the violence of capitalist nation states politik. While I don't align politically with everything it doesn't matter because this is an essential watch to understand Orthodox v. secular, etc, positions inside and outside of Israel, in addition to the history of Satmar views and Chabad views, and to undertand the finger on the pulse of current sentiments in the Satmar community post 10/7 atrocity. Thank you for making this video for the world to have access to these ideas/this education, and these analyses. Your channel is an incredibly important and invaluable corner of RUclips.
I think that whatever anti-Zionist arguments were made pre-1948 and in the early years of the state are no longer applicable. The state of Israel is now a de facto reality. That changes how Jews perceive the state. Although other streams are not in your purview, it's interesting to note that the reform movement was initially anti-Zionist and has returned to that position in recent years. Everyone makes a hoo-ha over Neturei Karta, but the leftist, superficially-ethnic streams of Judaism are bigger and more shocking in their compliance with rising antisemitism. Israel is a major game-changer in Jewish religious life. As part of the National Religious movement, it seems that we have a more natural relationship to historic Judaism, and greater unity with Klal Yisrael. Army service plays a big role in this.
As for Deir Yassin, most of the village had left already before Jewish forces attacked. Those who remained were mostly fighters and civilians who remained because they were ideologically committed or compelled to remain. So use of human shields, as we see in Gaza today, is nothing new.
Do we need to apologize for the "Nakba"? I think that is a paradigm error. Firstly, these words would mean nothing to the anti-Israel sector except as a further justification for aggression. Secondly, we see the Middle East as Israel/Palestine, but many in the West would be surprised to know that Arabs have a wider world view. Specifically, many who can travel do so, and can visit Jordan, Egypt, etc. The world they see is Arabic-speaking and Islamic--in other words, broad and familiar. It's not a "minority view". The main slap of the Nakba was the loss of Islamic imperialist sovereignty, and this applies no less to El-Andalus, which we call Spain. If you don't like this comparison, I'm sorry, but it's a fact that the material invest😢ment in Spain shames whatever Muslims put up in the land of Israel. I've been to the Temple Mount, and I was frankly shocked at what an architectural mess the El-Aksa mosque is. Clearly built from Byzantine church leftovers, without bothering to arrange the parts symmetrically, it is a dump compared to mosques in many other places. The point of Nakba is not a lament over some stolen glory, but to smack Jews and Israel back to dhimmitude.
I'm waiting for Muslims to apologize for Amin Pasha's 1948 declaration that the war against Israel would be a "war of annihilation ". But I'm not holding my breath.
ATHEIST ??!
“I’m anti Zionists… and anti antisemitism” is an oxymoron, you claim to be anti antisemitism but oppose Jewish land-back which is what Zionism is- it’s literally the decolonization of the land of Israel by it’s indigenous people.
I don't think a land where all the Jews that live there remain has to be zionist. A lot of jews who live there are antizionist. I don't think being intizionist is anti Jewish as long as you make sure the Jews can remain living there in safety
I had no idea satmar headquarters had a twitter account.
I guess you have to engage using their chessboard whether you like it or not.
There's an Aaroni, a Zaali. The Aaroni twitter account has been making the trouble.
I've been pouring over the Hasidism book, was a great piece of work!
I love your videos.
Thanks for watching them!!