Fixing Poor Dolby Atmos Mixes By Creating Arrays
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Shane and Jon from @TrinnovAudio discuss how to fix 2 height channel atmos mixes by arraying.
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As always, you’ve given us very valuable information! Thanks Shane!
Oh so THAT’S why a Trinnov costs so much. I wish ALL AVRs and preamps had a menu system where I could program a preset to create an array like that. 😮
@@ealanosborne i have second hand yamaha dme64n, audio processor 32in 32 out, it allows all sort of routing like this for less than 1000$
Just slap that ATMOS label on each disk ....it sells better. Where is Dolby do they not do any Vetting ...set minimum standard, protect their technology from being abused or can anyone say yeah this is Atmos!!😂
Here’s where it gets crazy. If you play that 7.1.2 mix on a theatrical Atmos system, it has the ability to send what’s in the bed (the .2) into the entire array of height speakers but objects can also discreetly move through that same array. At home, you have to choose between an array or be able to have discrete objects move through the array. Theatrical can do both at the same time. The unfortunate thing for home Atmos mixes is that every processor decodes the bed as static objects which is why the .2 is always in the middle heights only or between the 4 heights thus playing out of all 4 heights.
Interesting. I get the idea though. Seems like it would be something that could be implemented with an update. On the Trinnov at least. I’ll have to inquire.
@@therealshanelee Yeah, if anyone could do it it would be Trinnov, but even then I don’t think they can. They’d have to fundamentally change the way it decodes Atmos. It’s more like something Dolby has to change. The bed channels being rendered as fixed objects is something that happens when the file is converted from the master file to .mlp which is the file type used for authoring the mix in Dolby True HD. Trinnov would need to find a way on the decoding side to know when those 2 static objects for the overhead are bed or object and then do something to send them to the array. That just doesn’t seem possible. I also think Trinnov thinks it’s a problem with how it’s mixed and it’s not entirely that. If you take rain and put it as 4 fixed objects in the overhead it would come out of all 4 or 6 height speakers at home. In the theatrical mix though, if you placed the rain as 4 static objects it would only be in some of the height speakers where as if you did it as bed it would come through every height speaker because in theatrical they have many more height speakers. I could be wrong about this next part, but I think a fix could happen when the mix is converted from theatrical to the home mix. They’d have to look for things that are encoded as bed for the heights and re-map those to fixed objects for the home release. That’s the big mystery right now for me, which I will hopefully find out soon, is if they’re re-doing the mix for home or simply taking the master file and converting it for home playback delivery. If you want to read more about the spatial coding and how it renders bed channels as objects check out pages 264-266 of the Dolby Renderer guide here:
professional.dolby.com/siteassets/content-creation/dolby-atmos/dolby_atmos_renderer_guide.pdf
Thats why consumer atmos is broken and a lie. Just try the max layout 24.1.10, and how only fours speaker diffuse bed and all others play for few seconds anecdoctic objets sound.
Before atmos, if you have money you can have theatrical experience. Not anymore. Like movies without bluray support that let us only low bitrate streaming version
@@therealshaneleeTHXRD, a french home theater enthusiast, be the first to build full atmos room 24.1.10, and be the first to point this problem. Work directly with trinnov and dolby for years with help of JP Lafont, a french international acoustician and no, this problem is insolvable. At least their is no retroactiv fix, all movies mixed this way will stay forever this way, its hardcoded and non distinctiv. You need something like atmos pro, as dts:x pro, to solve this. But how many people on this earth have more than 7.1.4 or even 9.1.6 ? Dolby dont care of this hundreds peoples that can benefit of multimillion dollars developement.
Their is no array possible in such a small layout, that why object mix and scalability is non relevant, you can just add channel for height speaker and leave the 7.1 bed as it like in the past, like 11.1 fixed channels.
@@bastiencatil2509 I think home Atmos isn’t broken if you stick to the standard home layout which is 7.1.4. If you’ve got a big enough space to do the max layout you’d probably want to do a mix of speaker arrays and discrete speakers. But yes, for the people that try massive layouts they are missing the true theatrical experience. I think they’d be best to do a mix of arrays and discrete speakers. I think there is one super elite service where you can get the actual theatrical releases of a movie but can’t remember what it’s called. Even if you can get a true commercial playback system you still the theatrical Atmos mix of a movie to take advantage of it.
With my AVR(Marantz Cinema 30), I have the option to expand my 7.2.4 system to 7.2.6 but after this video and several others that mention the issue I am not going to do so. Seems .4 is the sweet spot since at least the speakers get used even if the track is .2 only.
One easy way is to send the sound as PCM and use an upmixer to handle the audio mix for the bedlayer and the height channel.
Disney sucks at there soundtracks for movies
Well this just shows that if you go for a high end cinema set up, be very wary!
Some people have spent fortunes on additional height speakers with processing, amplification, cabling and installation. As confirmed here and other places, there’s not even a dedicated signal being sent to these speakers!
I’m sure I’m not alone in feeling cheated redirecting another channel (not as intended) just to produce a sound out of these cost hungry additional speakers.
Its not exactly blindly upscaled, but trying to come closer to the director intent by curcumvent the codec limitation. But yes, i feel you. Shame on dobly for leave us with such fix
Black hawk down is a good movie to test your atmos setup. I just upgraded from 5.1.2 to 5.1.4 and it's a big difference so far. There was a scene where the helicopter is flying towards you and you can hear the chopper moving from the front height speakers to rear height speakers. It was cool lol
Info like this makes me wonder if I should do a 7.2.4 for my dedicated room and not even consider a 9.2.6. The benefit doesn’t seem to outweigh the extra cost and lack of content using all the speakers.
It's kind of relative. If money doesn't matter then why not go all the way. If there is a budget like for most of us then yes, that's plenty. Then factor in the are you just an average listener or a crazy nut joby that plays with this kit for fun or are you a hobbyist that likes to tinker with all of those channels?
For me the wides are just something to tinker with, nothing revolutionary for most people. The extra two heights are nice but not needed for most average people.
@@trauma50disaster1 I would say I’m definitely an enthusiast. I don’t consider myself an audiophile, but I definitely value sound over visuals. You’re right, it’s going to come down to budget. But I will probably be happy with a 7.2.4 and I know anyone I invite over for demos would be impressed.
It seems like these home mixes with two fixed height channels (encoded as objects it seems) just assume people will with just have two height speakers that will play them directly, or four height speakers, which the processors will typically spread in such setups.
So it looks like this question really is whether to get six height channels when it seems like it could be detrimental in so many mixes like this. The processor does not know to treat these like "fixed" or "bed" channels, and play them over the array, so with six heights, it will "pinpoint" them to the two center heights and the other four speakers become dead space.
Is the benefit of those extra height/floor channels for the movies that have real Atmos mixes worth it for having to switch processor settings on a movie by movie basis depending on how the movie was mixed?
Later Edit: Actually, it seems like it is spec for the height bed channel to be played just from the center speaker when there are six heights. It says "it will use the point source speakers"
professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/What-s-the-difference-between-beds-and-objects?language=en_US
@@BeastieMK if your primary question is it worth the effort to switch, then that is specific to how much of a nutter you are. I certainly enjoy just walking in cold and things just work for a movie, but I'm too much of a nut job playing with my toys to allow that. So if you have the drive to tinker with the kit then you already know we go to crazy lengths to have fun in our hobby.
I upgraded to 5.2.6 and also heard some movies f.e blade Runner,where no top middle active..
@@texxhexxmm If the top middles weren’t active in a .6 layout then that movie have been mixed as an object bed where they had 4 fixed locations for the height and didn’t have them move around.
I don't understand something. You or we in this case, does not have prior information about the way a movie was mixed so, on what basis do you make the decision to use this configuration ?
Do you suggest starting a movie and then decide based on your personal feeling that someone mad a bad decision while mixing it and then just overwrite this decision ?
Who are we to decide what is a good or bad decision ?
Sound enginnering is a form of art and as a former sound enginner I am very disturbed by this attitude.
ruclips.net/video/jZ40tkGtmyk/видео.html
As a former sound enginner surely you are aware of complacency, budget constraints, all mamner of administrative interference, and many other factors that would prohibit the artist from completing an epic masterpiece?
There is common knowledge of those of us that study the end home result, and plenty of interviews with those of your ilk that describe a corporate fkfest of proper atmos implementation. So we are not referring to the artists that we appreciate giving us their interpretation, that we usually love.
We are talking about the lazy blokes and ignorant blokes who don't put the proper time to do the atmos as art, but rather push the herd of cattle through by closing time.
Then there are the artists who are held back by corporate. So please don't take offense, this attitude is towards a specific group that you are prob not involved with.
Yes, we painstakingly start a movie look at a scene and then rewatch it 20 times turning off different channels to see why the hell is the bird flying over us not accurately chirping for fksakes. Then we compare to the theatre, the disc, then disney friggin crap streaming.
Then there are the rare times we do feel we can, in the privacy of our own homes, circumvent the artists intent. Sometimes after an adult beverage I adjust the levels of certain surrounds because I want to really hear that nature forest scene light the frig up, superceeding the artists intent. cheers
Older codec let us benefit of original mixing. Atmos dont. Money cant buy the original experience. You need DCP movies and CP850 and its not possible.
When studios have such a large pool of creative talent, and these "fixed channel object" mixes are the near consistent output of a particular studio, you have to wonder who is actually making certain decisions there. It seems like assuming the mixers hand was tied to maybe a not so great decision, and having a processor preset that makes the best of it is in good faith.
Other studios have releases (from within a given studio) ranging from channel based mixes (5.1, 7.1) to "fixed channel Atmos", to actual Atmos mixes that keeps sound at ear level even if screen action seems to dictate a lot in the heights (or just did not warrant it), to very dynamic Atmos mixes that could even fully utilize a 24.n.10 setup through most of their runtime. These are studios where it seems like it is in good faith to trust what is on the disk, and if the sound is limited to a few speakers even if there are more, that is the intent.
But in theather atmos is good
I’ve never been wowed tbh
Atmos have a different codec for theatrical and consumer release, unlike older codec like 7.1 or 5.1, and lie about it. thats why dolby dont respect consumer anymore.
@@bastiencatil2509 Even if the Atmos codec for home is different, it stills supports more sound objects, placement, and channels than Disney uses. Disney is just unnecessarily crippling their mixes.