I have cut out 12 holes in my ceiling. I went from 2 speakers at 0°. Then 4 at +55° and -55°. Then 6 at +55°, 0°, -55° . (Based on recommendations from respected people on RUclips, Audioholics, Anthony Gremani , Home Theatre gurus etc.) Then I watched Techno Dad's atmos renderer videos. Which threw a spanner in the works. So, I decided to make six extra holes that are in line with the bed layer. Lots of moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and recalibration, and listening, and moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and listening, and recalibration... on and on it went. But..... I think Channa is right. So thanks, Techno Dad, many more man hours later, it sounds right. Guess it's time to start filling in those original holes.🙄
Wow! That's a lot of work...I applaud you for taking the time and energy to experiment and go with a setup based on what you have found to be the best setup. I'm glad I could help...I can't help you fill those holes though...
@@fonkenful I'm 37, so I have no excuse! But it's done now. (I'm glad I had the foresight to keep and label the drywall cutouts). There is now no evidence of the carnage that had taken place previously in that room. I guess it's a bit like a serial killer selling an apartment...
Note position of speakers at 12:33 and 12:46 in the pro mixing room. Would it not be best to recreate that layout used in the studio to monitor the mix? Those speakers appear to fall within dolby instruction rather than following your suggestions here.
Honestly, Channa is 💯 correct on this...he is basically describing an Auro3D setup. It's better than the Dolby recommendation and still works fine for Atmos.
auro 3d basically uses old dolby layout.dolby ditched it bc it didnt work.just read guides for studio layout bc the normall consumer layou has compromises for normal living room.dont get why consumer guide is fucked up
@@bigben9056 The height layout works perfectly. In fact, the science says that the height layout is absolutely better than just Atmos "Top" channels alone. Wilfried van Balen of Auro did a ton of research on this fact and has freely shared this information. The Japanese TV corporation NHK has also done extensive research into immersive audio and height content (their format is older than Dolby's. They were giving demos way back in 2005) and their research came to the same conclusion as Wilfried did. Height is a superior position to Ceiling (Top-down). Now, Auro3D chose 30 degree height positioning and NHK chose 45 degree height positioning, but ultimately they are all mounted and processed as height channels. DTS:X and IMAX Enhanced also use height channel processing for its default 7.1.4 positions. In all these formats except Atmos, the Top/ceiling mounted channels are specifically for flyover effects directly above the audience. Most of the height effects are designed to come from above the front, side and rear soundstages (especially reflections and reverberations designed to mimic a specific acoustical space such as a cave or a spaceship etc) Seriously, google NHK 22.2 or Hamasaki 22.2. The results they came up with are interesting (and eye-opening)
I don't think the diagram contradicts itself at 10:06, yeah the seating position between the ear level speakers changed, but that does not matter because this diagram is meant to show the angles for the height speakers. And if we compare the height speakers relative to the seating position for the big diagram and the small one, they seem to be identical. It's not telling you where to place your seating position, that's what the large diagram is for, it's only meant to show the angles for the height speakers and their placement.
performance. but just to say - i followed the prime elevation manual where it said to "place ypur height speakers as close as possible to the ceiling" and this is where your atmos tester revealed the defects. due to them being close to the ceiling AND the sidewalls (like in the DAR) they caused a lot of echo and completely messed up the directionality of the sound. so i moved it down and closer together - i had my wife hold the speaker up while listening to your tester and then decided on the position. so i'd say yes on this proposal as a general guide but always.. test first!
you always want to be away from sidewalls, even with the front ear leval. I think the main princinble is keep them at the same palce as your ears just higher, which typically are as close to the screen edge as possible.
@@TechnoDad she appreciated the difference in sound as well.. worth all the blabbering during that time 😂😂 i'll be considering speaker on a stick next time (those parts doesnt seem to be easily available here)
I totally agree with you. This is why I feel that in any given day Auro 3D is better than Dolby Atmos. The addition of an extra layer exponentially increases the intensity of immersion. I do reallt feel bad that Auro 3D doesn't get the credit it deserves. Dolby clearly has the edge through their aggressive marketing. Thank you for making this video, you have meticulously put together your careful observations.
Very interesting and makes total sense. I have a 7.1.4 system in my living room, so full of compromises. I had to go for in ceiling speakers for my hight channels so need to bring them in closer to be able to get the best out of them. I’m assuming that if you are advocating putting speakers in the corners, it would be better to use bookshelf sized speakers angled to the listener?
Hmm, so yes, my back surround and sidesurrounds are not placed on ear level, why? Because it's my living room. Just not gonna happen. So it's not exactly how the artists intended it to be placed, but hey, it sounds 500x better than those goofy soundbars, and it's not the end of the world that your soundstage is some what lifted
Ow I totally agree with TD about height channels. I have just 2 height speakers, but they,re NOT in my ceiling but right above my front speakers. If I going to place back height surrounds they will be right above my back surrounds
I settled for a soundbar sub, and rear speakers 5.1.(2) set up for my lounge, because I only use Blu-ray, and have noticed most of them carry dts X as their only audio source. I'm not going to go with 4k discs, so this fits my audio needs while being aesthetically smaller than a full system. The dts sound fills the room better than the few Atmos discs I have. And as usual, I am the only one in the house that pores over these decisions. The .2 is in brackets because the q600b upfiring are half the power of the mains, and bring some atmosphere, but not height.
You are RIGHT. I have placed four atmos in the four corners aligned with the floor speakers and the Atmos sounds are BEST. I have placed at 45º and when a sound is in FRONT TOP, they sound from that point, not towards me. The problem is that you say about these people chatting in forums that they think that are engineers or something else and place the diagrams of Dolby over all, and they cannot discute it. I go to the BEST mix sound editing room here in Spain and there isn´t any theather that will mimic that experience that I feel, and that was about 14 years ago!. And they have placed the speakers LIKE YOU SUGGEST. A lot of them, of course, because want to mimic a theater enviroment (more of 30 speakers for sure). Only when I add my humble four atmos speakers following my ideas, not the Dolby specs, I feel PART of that experience I sense. So YES, you are RIGHT, sir!
13.2 does me , it took a while but base level are all at ear level once seated, my height speakers are all same level and the top speaker is above my seat and it blows me away.. 😊
Dude, I had this same conversation talking to a buddy of mine when listening to demos. He wants me to set up his system and I was telling him why I recommend having the atmos speakers match the positions of the bed layer. He kept going back to the dolby charts and I kept explaining why the bed layer is so good at placing sound in the room and why having the top layer match that exactly would be best. Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Awesome video and keep up the good work man!
@@TechnoDad I wish you would have made this last year as now I have already drilled the holes and installed the speakers! What is your take on position of front left and right speakers? How far from the front wall should they be? Some people recommend 4 feet from the front wall, but that looks pretty funky, but it would be directly under my atmos speakers at that point. Should I move the fronts out 4 feet or cut new holes and move the atmos speakers?
I just bought a new set of seven speakers for my AVR/surround system. This video makes me want to try to use the older ones for height speakers now. I have a 10x12 living room and I have to use the 10 foot distance for the front to rear. I’m sitting about 8 feet away from the screen and have nothing but wall behind me. Except for a window that I don’t want to block. My A/V amp is a Yamaha RX-V683. I don’t know exactly what it is capable of really doing. Right now the front speakers are placed in a “V” formation from the center to the mains to the front presence speakers at about 7 feet high. These could be put higher since I have 9 foot ceilings. The two surround speakers are placed on the walls about 3 feet above and slightly behind me, in the rear corners of the room. I’m in the left corner of the room and there’s no other way to arrange the furniture. After watching this video, you have made me want to (at least) move the main speakers to the front corners of the room at ear level. This won’t be easy for the left side because I have to go up and around a door frame with a third thick gauge wire. I can’t really lower the surround speakers because a piece of furniture is in the way. If you can picture this layout, what do you think of it? And is it improvable? Like I said, no furniture can be moved to another location in this small house. Simply because there’s no room to put it anywhere else. Thanks for your opinion.
A reminder has been set ☺- You can do both by integrating design features so that they aid the sound and video, items in the room remain functional and also look nice and not like you are in a black coffin. I am glad you brought this subject up. Using common can get you results that deliver both, but of course if common sense was a currency we would all be rich. Love this video 👌
Its important to go through this thought process and fully understand what it is you are trying to accomplish before starting any kind of construction. I think the issue here is that people started building home theaters to include Atmos before we had all the information at hand. The first few years of Atmos installation was all basically beta-testing and experimemtation. The price of being an early adopter.
Watch the fireballs scene of Dungeons and Dragons near the end and tell me if it sounds right when the fireball hits the building up on the top left there.
Great information Techno Dad.I'm still using The Yamaha Rx 583 for 5.2.2. I went 4 channel in 1973/4 with 8 track tapes, anyone remember the 4 channel FM broadcast You needed 2 FM tuners.
While I haven't tested my system and am nowhere near an expert like TD, I wanted to chime in a fair warning from my experience. I DO have my Atmos speakers up in the corners directly above my surrounds similar to the diagram here, and I can say I've almost NEVER gotten a true 'overhead' sound effect. So while this placement makes sense, there definitely is still a concept of angle and separation at play here. I think for my setup to have a true 'overhead' experience, I'd need them about two feet in on the ceiling - in line with my front mains. I'm not sure how y'all are getting an overhead effect with a corner mounted speaker that's far out from the MLP but it may not work for everyone.
How far back are your surround speakers? Surround speakers should be between 90 degrees and 110 degrees. You don't want to go too much further back than that. If you have 7 ear-level speakers (with Rear Surrounds as well as Sides) then you should try your best to put your surrounds at 90 degrees. At worst, put them at 100 degrees. You should be splitting the distance (equidistant) between the Front mains and the rear surrounds. If your surrounds are at around 100 degrees, mounting your side surrounds above them, you will have definitive overhead effects. There will be no question. Try the opening scene of Man of Steel, the part on Krypton. There are two moments when Kryptonian ships fly directly overhead and use their P.A. system. It should sound like a singular Voice of God channel directly above you. I am currently using Surround heights mounted at about 100 degrees and that images overhead perfectly. About 95% of how it sounded back when I had them mounted at 90 degrees directly overhead.
Performance. Just 1 question. What about the angels everybody is talking about. Or just put the speakers on the richt spot and angle them to main listingposition?
7.1.6 is the best, but when the space is limited you go with 5.1.4... in the case of limited funds and the 5.1.2 is the only option is bette ti have the 2 atmos channels as front high or on top of the main sitting position?
The official atmos layout gives me original Dolby Surround vibes, like just put some speakers there to give you a vague sensation of height, and sound coming from above, and your suggestion is more of the placing sound accurately exactly where it's encoded to live.
So if I understood correctly. I dont have to worry about the 30 degree or 45 degree angles, just place the height speakers exactly above the bed layer and I should have a wonderful Atmos, Auro experience?
You have to keep it within that 30°-45° range because if you go too high, you lose the coherence between your ear-level speaker and the height speaker.
@@joentellhi Joe, so should I put my left channel and right channel 45 degrees off the MLP each? Just wondering if you and TD changed your setups to reflect 45 degree angles after making the spatial calibration toolkit given your findings about when something appears in the left or right channel. Just want to make sure my bedlayer is setup correctly before mirroring it with the heights.
@@joentellmy ceiling is 7.5 feet tall should I still worried about the angles. I am still not sure about how to implement technodad's suggestion. Because it appears I just have to copy my bed layer up above.
With multiple rows, the speakers at home should be just above ear level so it's not blocked. My surrounds are actually just below ear level and some sounds still sound like they're over my head from the side surrounds (HRTF in the recorded sounds affects placement too). Most of these mixes are designed for the movie theater and their surrounds tend to be considerably above ear level anyway. So this notion that Atmos needs speakers at or below ear level is erroneous. You want separation between layers, but the layers don't have to be exactly at ear level. You do generally want to keep front/rear lower layer speakers relatively consistent with each other. If possible, LCR mains should be behind an audibly transparent screen. If not, you can employ a "dialog lift" mixer (Yamaha builds the feature into its AVRs) to simulate it with TVs and the like as well.
Hi, love your content! Does your opinion aboht height speaker placement change depending on the ceiling height of the room? For example, 6' vs 10' vs 15'? Looking at the Atmos box, can you guesstimate the room dimensions based on the screen size?
I haven't really thought about 15 foot ceilings. Obviously, a 6 foot ceiling would be pretty rough. I think 8 feet hight is a great place to put the speakers. My new Atmos mixing room has 10 foot ceilings, but I am placing the heights at 8 feet high.
That’s the reason why Dolby spec specifies angle not height above the main speakers. If angle is preserved it doesn’t matter how high is your ceiling - it will come from the specific point. I think showing a room/box shape is misleading. It should show the way auro3d shows a bubble. Then people can visualize why angles make sense - it’s not about corners in your space! Sound traveling to your front Atmos speaker is ok - it doesn’t mean it travels closer into your room if your ceiling is lower - it means it comes from that direction. So if it’s mixed to go up above the front soundstage it either will be mixed with front channels or spl will be lower than when coming from front speakers - mimicking greater distance of the object to you. If your room was square and your main listening position was in the middle it’s possible at certain ceiling height to have Atmos speakers directly over front and rear speakers whilst maintaining 45 degree to them. With Auro3d they say to put over main speakers - front and side surrounds but at the same time they say to have them at 30 degrees. This is not possible with all rooms at variable ceiling heights.
This issue with atmos is not everyone has a movie theater room setup, a movie room I would assume is very square, most home aren't built that way unless you custom built your house to include this
@@TechnoDad While that’s true, most builders have no clue how big to make the media rooms. Most are 12x12 or 11x10 etc. I just closed on a plan that has a 14x17 media room which I can work with. Would have preferred 14x22 ideally.
Performance all day every day. Attractive theater style seating combined with awesome lighting definitely grasps my attention. But beautiful video on a large screen combined with immersive sound is what blows me away.
Great effort making the video, but after trying both options with front and rear heights, and in ceiling I prefer the home theater gurus option with in ceiling speakers. To me it was a big difference. 8’ wasn’t tall enough to noticed a good separation between base layer and front and rear height
First, I'm glad you found something that works well for you. You will hear more sound when a speaker is physically closer to you, no doubt. The tradeoff is less accurate positioning of height objects based on the Atmos renderer and coherence between the ear-level speakers and heights. Just like stereo imaging breaks when placed too close or too far, the same thing happens with height speakers.
Dumb question… Just to confirm, if you are doing a 5.1.4 setup you should do surround heights above your surround left and right speakers? Also, would a 5.1.6 work? There is no available back wall, but the ceiling does continue.
Well...that does make sense. However...when using surround height position, the way sounds are matrixed between the front height and rear height are not going to sound correct 100%. Maybe setting the rear height to top middle? That might work a bit better.
@@TechnoDad Thanks for the info, I appreciate it!... Maybe I can pick up some Monoprice THX satellites and try out some different positions (and position settings in AVR) before turning my ceiling/walls into Swiss cheese lol. Also, I could always repurpose the Monoprice THX satellites to garage speakers with a little sub.
@@synergyxx Ive found setting the tops to top front and top rear(not height) is what works best in 5.1.4, and placing the speakers about 2ft in front of and behind MLP and 20% of the room from the side walls to the MLP. This will put the MLP in an atmos bubble and will provide very good separation of atmos effects from fronts and surrounds while offering very good matrixing
I just watched your video on my home theater system. I have six up firing speakers. My system pretty much followed your Atmos demo. Not exactly, but sounded pretty close. The sound seemed to go up the front wall and not towards me during those examples. The sound seemed to be pretty darn close to your demo so I'm pretty happy about that. I have a Nakamichi Dragon 11.4.6 home theater system and tuned my system with your Spatial Audio Calibration Tool as best I could. Made a real difference in how my system sounds so thank you for that tool kit! It may not be a perfect system, but the Atmos is way better than my Bose 900 Soundbar system it replaced. I think it has more to do with having more power to bounce those sounds off the ceiling better and having six speakers to do it with.
The idea of the .4 setup is to have height speakers in front and behind your seating position, while sitting between them all. That way sounds can pan from front to back above you. And ideally, if they are wide dispersion speakers angled toward you, all 4 would sum together above your head, essentially creating a virtual phantom set of Top Middle speakers.
It all depends on how large your room is. I have had both setups and I like the heights to mimic the front and rear speakers. Selfishly, as I want my Atmos mixes to translate better to my Atmos home theater. I would say try it first before you mount anything. I use the speaker on a stick method - ruclips.net/video/h7NWteMPO5A/видео.html
So where do you position the middle height speakers when the side surrounds are adjacent to the seating position. The seating position is 1/3 from the back wall. Do you colocated them with the side surrounds or in the middle of the room?
I would put the middle heights above the MLP, or just in front of the MLP and above. That way, you will get separation of the overhead effects and the rear effects.
I had a friend telling me about this concept while I was upgrading from a .2 overhead to a .4 and I thought it was very interesting. I then found your channel and downloaded your test video that had sounds going straight up and down from the base speakers and it clicked for me. I know have all four overhead speakers directly above the front and surround speakers and it sounds fantastic. Thanks for pushing this topic, it makes perfect sense. Now I have to redo my living room....half the fun right? Right guys?
@@bigben9056 Thats why you do 6 height channels. This guy is using SURROUND HEIGHTS and thus, have speakers close enough to put sounds directly overhead. Some Atmos processors will use Surround Heights with Atmos (Trinnov, Storm, D&M etc)
I would love to have a 7.1.6 system. Unfortunately my receiver can only handle 7.1.4 with an extra amp. Will be a while before I can get all the speakers but will see how it turns out at some point.
Interesting take. I am (counter to your assertion LOL) running a 9.2.6 system in my (heavily treated) living room... I experimented a LOT with placement and ultimately my 6 overhead speakers (SVS Prime Elevations) are directly above my L, R, LS, RS, LR, and RR speakers at the top of the walls. (which is NOT an option my Anthem AVM 70 has LOL so I lied and said they're in the ceiling). After running ARC multiple times after any small change I am completely delighted with the results... Any friends or family who I demo the system for are astounded by how detailed Atmos placing of sounds is and how seamless any panning sound is. That said... I only ever listen to music through straight L&R or if it's heavy live music and I feel rowdy maybe L&R plus subs. 😉 Can't quite abide the multi-channel music... even live I don't listen from the stage... Music naturally comes from in front of me into my two ears so it's easily reproduced by two speakers in front of me... but like you said "you do you" 😅.
My system is a 5.1 at ear level, but I think you're correct. Multi channel music is also making similar advances as they are moving the sound stage around the room for some arrangements.
I agree with the logic but recommend you follow up with some speaker form-factor recommendations and perhaps left-right placement recommendations. The dots you have in the graphic you are using to demonstrate your point would suggest that you don't recommend any in-ceiling channels put rather would use angled atmos speakers at the front side - directly to the side or slightly in front of and to the side of the listening position, and to the back and side of the listening position. Or would you use in-ceiling for the center atmos channels?
I understand what you’re saying. Yes, I would recommend front and rear heights with small bookshelf speakers mounted up high on the walls almost in the corners. The ideal middle heights would be in ceiling firing downward
I go for performance. I don't mind seeing the speakers in my Living/Media Room. I just don't want a big screen & a projector. I think any Living Room could benefit from Acoustic Treatments. I will eventually get a Micro LED Display to put into my room with JTR Speakers system throughout.
I have a 7.2.4 setup and I’ve had to move the furniture around which means that my surrounds left and right now have the top front left and right ceiling speakers directly above them. I was going to use the Dolby angles etc to move the ceiling speakers forward but after watching this video am I correct in that you are suggesting where they are now is the more logical position? Would save me cutting more holes!
Let's say the best I can set up right now is 5.x.4, which I recently did. I currently have the height speakers in a box around me, where the walls meet the ceiling, pointed at the MLP. There is a pretty even angular split between my surround (which are further rear than ideal but it's what the room allows), the rear heigh, the front height, and then the fronts. Would you instead recommend moving the heights directly over the fronts and rear surrounds instead of this dome like situation which I tried to setup? Or is my solution better since I am limited to 4 heights and if I moved front and back then there would be a big gap overhead?
So would you say that the speaker layout for Dolby Atmos should be closer to Auro3D with speaker placement in corners facing down at 45°? Should they also be angled towards the listening position on the sidewalls and corners? Would like your input on that. I've been mulling over my Heights for a while now and looking for advice on where to put them and how best to proceed. I've always appreciated your no-nonsense input on performance versus aesthetic versus angles and following charts. Thanks, Techno Dad!
Do you think placing the front and rear height speakers in the corners is more important than keeping them equidistant to the MLP? Also, if they are down firing in ceiling speakers and not aiming at the MLP, does that affect your findings or not?
@@TechnoDad Lol, ok. Let me be a bit more specific. MLP is at 2/3 room length. Would you recommend putting the front heights equidistant from MLP or back to the front wall?
Great work. I agree with your research. The theater room will be energized accurately with balanced sound. Especially, if the bed layer speakers still support the atmos speakers with sound. You will feel the helicopter all around you as it passes through. The sound will be on another level. This is part of the reason why home theaters sound much better than commercial theaters. The sound is in your face and you could feel it move around the room with impact. Commercial theaters doesn't give you the same experience.
Same with hi-fi (2 channel) groups. Full of "experts" who will always advise you to buy something more expensive. The very same people will push their speakers up against the walls, advise you to buy a very expensive speaker cable for your $250 pair of speakers because it will do some kind of magic to your system... etc. So tired of these fb experts I haven't read anything in those groups for more than 6 months now. Many of them claim to know everything yet are probably deaf and/or delusional.
Hey techno dad, so does this mean I should stick my rears in the corners of the room? Or do I just line up my rears with my front stage and basically put them across from wherever my left and right front speakers are?
I have a 7.2.6 system. The 6 height speakers are connected to a separate 6 channel emotiva basx amp. When I turn off the bed layer speakers and listen to just the height speakers, there really isn't much coming from the heights. I watched the bombing scene from Midway just before this reply and there are plenty of bullets whizzing by and another plane passing overhead but for the majority of the scene the heights are silent. Knowing what I know now, I think I can get the same results with a 7.2.4 system using in ceiling speakers that are located slightly in front and behind of my primary listening position. Don't skimp on side surround speakers, there is plenty of sound coming from these bed level speakers.
do you recommend the rear heights be directly above the rear surrounds or in the corner? I currently have two in wall rear surrounds that are at ear level hieght and 5 ft between them.. should the rears heights also be directly above the, and 5 ft apart or should they pushed more into the corners?
Huh. I thought Atmos systems map the location of your speakers in the room and can adjust the volume of multiple speakers to create the 3d soundstage. Does this not actually work? Or is it just down to how well reflections are treated in room?
I think this concept works great but only if you have 10 to 12-ft ceilings. Someone like me with Atmos at 8 and 1/2 ft. It's hard to get enough separation between the side surrounds and if I were to have Atmos channels directly above on the walls.
I’m about trial and error. I won’t just assume one is better than the other, I would try them out. I’ve done that. So I would say, try it out and see what’s up.
Sooooo... I do not have a dedicated room. My setup is in my living room, that opens up into my kitchen off to the side. My current AVR is only a 7 channel AVR. As of right now I only have 2 speakers for Atmos/Height. They are not on the ceiling yet. I have them sitting on my towers facing up. My main listening area is further back closer to the back wall and I have two couches along each side wall. Where do you recommend I put my two height speakers for the time being? Front stage up high? Mid way on ceiling or high wall? Or One front, one back middle ceiling? Or any other suggestion. Room is a rectangle with angled ceilings. I will be upgrading my AVR eventually to a 11 or 13 channel.
Great video - thanks for the thought provoking content. I have a question. Does the Dolby renderer send different signals to your speakers based on whether you tell your AVR you are using height speakers or top speakers? In other words will a top front right speaker get different signals sent to it by the renderer than a front height right speaker? 🤔
The renderer won’t know that distinction, it just sends sounds to that speaker when the object is placed in that location. Changing that designation in the AVR will make the AVR change its delay I would imagine, but not change the signal itself.
@@TechnoDadThat is correct for Dolby Atmos but not for DTS:X, I actually discovered recently that DTS:X sends the top information differently and I had to buy a new 5.1.2 receiver because my previous one was limited in that regard, I am still waiting for it and I will send you an email explaining in detail the reason why I had to replace the AVR and also why I will have to go from front height to top middle.
I completely agree. I am in the process of building my home theater, but currently I only have a 6.1 receiver and separate amps. Often I even turn off my center because I have such an amazing phantom center. This absolute proof that the same can happen with the height speakers. Heck even with just my two front towers playing some of the 8D tracks on RUclips, I can even hear height. Whenever I am ready to buy a new receiver, I will have pre-wires for ceiling speakers, but i will probably experiment with speaker placement and settings. Will you have any more info for settings/adjustments for the height channels? Or is it as intuitive as I'm thinking...? Thanks!
If you are going to experiment with height speakers, I would look at my Speaker on a Stick design to test out height speaker locations - ruclips.net/video/h7NWteMPO5A/видео.htmlsi=WD4m1phNIxrerZT9
Oh man!!! I did exactly what you said not to do. Although I’m extremely limited with my living room space and vaulted ceilings, and open concept. I did a 7.2.4 and my 4 heights are midway towards front/rear to seating position
I’m getting the Samsung 9500s rears it’s for my bedroom and my bed is pretty close to the back wall where the speakers are going just wondering how far away and height should they be my room is 10ftw by 12ftd my soundbar system will be 7.1.4
With 7.1 and adding 4 height channels for Atmos as Front Heights and Rear Heights, what is the recommended placement of these Front and Rear Heights. Place Front Heights to top of where left and right speakers are placed? What about Rear Heights, same line behind Surround Back Left and Right? Can someone please suggest what is recommended from Height Placement? Thanks
Aren't these issues he is talking about corrected with proper calibration and time alignment? Cause if top fronts are not above LR but slightly forward towards MLP then you time shift it so the sound comes out exactly at the moment when it comes from LCR. The speaker placement shouldn't be that of an issue. For example I have LR surrounds like 1 foot below ceiling. Most of the time it sounds right and not like going from ceiling. Maybe if you super focus on it then you pick it up but otherwise quite fine. The speakers are there to paint the image and they can create illusion line the sound is coming from different place then the speaker is located. I have C in the ceiling and angled towards MLP. Doesn't sound AT ALL like it's coming from the ceiling.
Great video! Your focus was more on the height speakers, but what do you think about the main bed layer? Shouldn't our 5/7 bed layer speakers be setup in a box format as well than instead of what dolby recommends? I've never understood why our rear or surround speakers should be so close to us in atmos. I think the ideal is a square box room, you sit in the middle. Speakers in every corner, both at ear level and height level. Then a main center channel.
If you only have 5, the surrounds are intended (by Dolby) to be more beside you and only a little bit behind you. Maybe 110° to 120°. When you have 7.1, the side surrounds move go 90° and the rear surrounds move to around 150° in general, the front mains should be the front wall, the rear surrounds should be the rear boundry and the side-surrounds should be exactly halfway between them. You could set up a 5.1 like a Quadrophonic setup with the addition of a center channel, but the rear surrounds being that far back has some weird psychoacoustic effects. Thats one of the reasons the rear surrounds are not used often for sustained playback.
@@clintstuckey There is a rather square room of 8,1 x 7,2 meter x 2,55m height (or ratios of 3.18 x 2.82 x 1) in which there are no axial resonance modi below 182Hz, nor retromodi and also no other than axial modi below 165Hz
@@FURognar the general laws of acoustics regarding boundary reflectios and interference at listenig level always apply, meaning in 2.0 or surround the spakers need to be away from the walls quite a bit (min 5ms of 90cm/3ft; preferably 10-20ms or ven further into the room - law of ellipses). This was proven by Jeremy Kipnis in his Beta studio, together with having a subwoofer per speaker , distanced no further apart than half the distance of the cut-off wavelength (ie. never in the corners of the room)
I don't see any receivers set up for 6 height speakers. I see 4 outputs, but not 6. How do you power the 5th and 6th speaker and make sure they're getting the correctly coded signal? Does this require a $20k receiver or what? Also, I had an Aperion audio 7.1 set up in my last house and was happy with their speakers. Are there any others out there on par with Aperion audio that I should take a look at? Thanks.
I'm probably wrong, but I think for rear speakers I don't like direct radiating speakers but I like Dipole/Bipole speakers. Atmos speakers can be mounted at ceiling on upper wall with a slant speaker.
@Tachno Dad, my receiver supports only four heights channels with 7 base layer channels. With 8 ft ceiling heights, which positions do you recommend for four heights channels with seating around 14-15 ft from the screen? I have about 5 ft space behind the seats.
This is essentially an Auro-3D layout except for the VOG will be matrix’d between the two middle heights. The middle heights would be best to be in ceilings pointing down at the MLP.
I love taking myself down a virtual rabbit hole on this topic. I see why 7.4.6 is recognized as your theater selection preference as opposed to the 7.1.4 drawing with its flaws. The software must place the front height in the upper LR corners of the space. This is wrong in the drawing and software. The speakers in the 7.1.4 drawing are actually positioned closer to the height wide left and right but don’t act that way in the software. The software positions them incorrectly in the front of the physical space. 7.4.6 fixes the glitch in the matrix by actually placing a LRHeights in the front and the height wides act as they should. In a living room, a small room ( acoustically speaking)how do we compromise with 8’ ceilings? I don’t care buy my CD and figure it out! 😂
Like others have said, the actual studio room at 12:42 contradicts with what you are saying. Instead you point at the software on the PC, where it is unclear what is shown. I haven't seen you comment on that scene. Would you mind explaining that part? It's hard for beginners to understand, but I believe the receiver knows how far the speakers are from the calibration, therefore it wouldn't matter much if those front heights are completely in the corner or not. But instead of going more in depth, you are selling some kind of calibration tool? This video feels more like an ad at this point unfortunately. Please do clarify.
So, according to the 3D picture, the bed layer is placed at the floor? So, much lower than ear level? If so, are the speakers angled up toward the listening position?
i got that and agree... and by watching i noticed, that i mounted everything like you said about 4 years ago😂 why did i do this? because i did not look at the atmos recommendation. i did it because that made the most sense to me. but what about angles of the top speaker. do you think they should all pointed to the MLP via pivoting ect. ? exept the middle tops?
Techno Dad I have a question, I’m using a 9.2.4 system now. Should I ditch the extra wide channels and use the extra heights instead for Movies and Games?
If heights are above bed, then your heights are further away from mlp than bed. Without correction, the helicopter would sound like it’s rising and moving away. Instead of just rising. Correction corrects this, the same as correction would correct speakers not directly above bed. At least I would think. Less correction is more better. So bringing those heights in to match more closely the distance from mlp would be superior. Ideally all speakers are the exact same distance from mlp, a true bubble. Which would imply you don’t put heights directly above. I’m not arguing one way or the other…I’m really just talking to myself…
Hi, just for the right understanding. My MLP is about a third of my room. Where should I put my side surrounds? 80°, 110° or exactly at 90°. In your layout the 6 atmos speaker are front/rear heights and top middles? So you have compatibility to Auro3d with VOC. Although the position for the top middles are side heights??? thx ☺
Respect. Definitely something to try and see if the difference is big. To be clear, just for the bed layer, you'd move surround to the middle of room and surround back to the back corners?
So I brought my copy of SACT to my friend's house. He's got 7.2.4. Mid and rear heights. He hates me now, confirmed he needs to go to .6 and get those front heights, which also means an upgrade to his AV receiver. BTW SACT is a great upgrade tool. The panning test of the bed layer, makes me want side surrounds.
No he doesn't "need" to go 6 heights because he currently has his 4 in a sub-optimal position. I have my 4 heights at -35 degrees and +35 degrees (or 55 and 125 using the Dolby diagram) and my Atmos sounds amazing. Going to 6 height might be a very marginal improvement but not worth the much extra cost and hassle of re-situating height speakers etc. Your friend just needs to position his 4 correctly and he should notice a huge improvement.
My LCR speakers are line arrays that span from about 2.5 feet off the floor to about a foot from the ceiling (center channel behind the screen). They are 4'6" tall line arrays. Would putting height speakers above the R and L work in this layout? There would essentially be no separation between the R/R height and the L/L height.
For a 7.1.6 setup as you describe, I"m assuming you'll need a pretty specialized/advanced amp, what do you recommend? or are there tricks to making existing systems that support fewer ceiling speakers support more?
Hello TD, can I ask your opinion? I have a 7.2.4 Martin Logan setup. FLR (60xti/Motion 50xti center) Motion fx front heights and surround back and sides. 8'' Martin Logan Atmos top middle speakers. Emotiva XMC-2 Emotiva XPA-11. My question is would it be better if I used rear heights or rear surround configuration? I truly appreciate your help in this endeavor, thank you.
Makes a lot of sense.. my room is too small for surround back so I have 2 klipsche atmos on the ceiling but very slightly forward of my surrounds. (After watching your video I am honestly wondering what I was thinking not having them in line with the surrounds) I don't have any on the front but can hook up another 2. I am now going to move my 2 atmos speakers to directly above my surrounds and hooking up another 2 above my front left and right. Today I will move my surrounds but need to get more speaker wire before I hook up my front left and right atmos. I got the speakers on another system upstairs which I am not using atm so I just need to get more speaker wire. Makes a lot of sense. I honestly feel I learned something from this video. True hard to take in new information when I always think I know best. I been making music since mid 80's and into home cinema since late 90's...yes when you needed nicam stereo to get a dolby suround signal. :)
I am building a dedicated room in my custom home build. The room will be 18' wide and 23'-6" deep with 10' ceiling. I will have second row seating which will be 15" above the first row. I plan on a 11.4.6 setup using JBL Synthesis in-wall speakers and a Trinnov Altitude processor. How would you recommend placing the 6 ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in this type of configuration?
Sound advice. We merge what we know from both disciplines into a new way of listening in a better immersive listening environment. With the added channel, do you need a processor to handle that or run the new channel in series with the front atmos?
I want to preface I have Bachelors Degree in Live Sound Engineering, the principles of audio cover all areas of audio work. I agree with your video, I have a 7.1.4 currently, I have the option to add two more speakers with a pre-out, It was either Front Wide Pair or going middle height, to me it makes sense to copy the surround Left & right as they are right next to you, so if a heli is going straight up, doesnt matter where in the audio space it should go straight up and the speakers should accurately show that. I also want to say my speaker set up probably goes against every Dolby Atmos setup rule 🤣 I sit at my desk so Im foward of the middle, my height speakers are mounted to the wall in line with my L&R to keep consistancy when audio goes up, same with the rear heights. Your main set of speakers should be at listening height so the tweeter is ear level unless you have two tier seating then the listening location should be on axis to the tweeter. The big issue with ceiling speakers if they are coax or two way speakers, is the tweeter doesnt point towards the listener, so the whole unit need angling however there are models that are purposefuly designed with an angle built in. I would still line them up with the main left and right and put them closeish on the z plane to that location. Just make sure they are time aligned back to the Main speakers. When designing any speaker system, speaker location is extremely important otherwise you can run into standing waves or phase cancellation depending on the speaker and the room. Im not an expert by an means, but my degree really helps.
Think it would be worth returning the refurb X3800H for a refurb X6700H to have the extra channels available as I build out my theater? I've got 5.1 with 4 speakers ready to go up for heights, using them as heights instead of tops would actually help maximize PJ screen size since they would be out of the way. Would you put a great base layer over any Atmos? Thanks!
just upgraded to a 9.2ch reciever ..how do i place the ceiling speakers? the front height above the fronts and rear heights above side surround speakers? i have my side surround slightly behind at 110degree
@@TechnoDad im doing 5.1.4 and my mlp is 3ft away from the back wall..my side surrounds are slightly behind at 110degree .. where should the rear heights go? exactly above the side surrounds? or slightly behind?
@@kuronekosan2830 If that's the case, I would still put them above your listening position. Since you don't have front and rear heights, you will not be getting any front to back motion.
@@TechnoDad maybe I didn't explain well ..im doing front heights as well as rear heights i just dont have rear surround backs for the bed layer..only side surrounds..i know im supposed to have my front heights above my front speakers but what about rear heights where will they go as i dont have rear surround backs..above the side surrounds?
I use the disk to check to see if the "auto cal" got it right and to use the disk to make corrections. It's nice to use the disk to listen to Channa's objects move smoothly from speaker to speaker once all of the speaker placements and distances are correctly set. It can be done without the disk by setting the AVR to output all speakers stereo and listen for echos. Then the task is to figure out which speaker is set wrong. I'm surely losing hair trying to get my system just right. But, is there a "just right"?
In a 5.1.4 system when the seating is against the wall. For my .4 I clearly want front height, but does it make sense to put the 2nd set above the surrounds or behind the seating position in the corner of the wall to be rear height? (Spacing maybe 6" behind seat).
Now question @TechnoDad Should the heights 6 of them be pointed/ tilted at mlp or just straight across the room im looking at the Monolith by Monoprice THX Certified Satellite Speakers six of them and will place them as high as i can over the six base layer speakers
Point the height speakers at a point above the MLP. The distance above the MLP that they should point at depends on the dispersion characteristics of the speaker and how much you care about enlarging the sweet spot. Those speakers have very good directivity, so as long as you keep them within 30deg of the MLP, you should be fine. Other speakers you might be limited to
12:42 Dude just the fact that the speaker layout they are using here is totally different speaks volumes (no pun intended). Do you have a walkthrough of that room’s speaker layout? I guess that is the model room layout we need to emulate. I’m literally in the process of making a theatre in the next 4 months. Please do a speaker layout walkthrough of one of these studios.
Hey T.D. What crossover point is recommended for atmos? Is there much bass, or even mid bass? Would having an 8” compared to a 6.5” make a huge difference? Maybe you could make a video discussing these.
Have you played much with the top / front height settings of speakers in the AVR? What you’re describing about 11mins in seems like a processor mapping thing? (With the helicopter going up)
At the end of the day, the speaker can try to “fake” the location of the object, but it won’t give you a better experience as placing the speaker in the correct location.
@@meade916 It's pretty odd. I got an email about this reply, but nothing else. I usually get an email about each comment. If you write it again, copy it before you hit comment or reply, or email me the comment. I'm not 100% sure what's happening.
I was using my two atmos speakers (in a 5.1.2 setup) at the very front height of the ceiling at an equidistant distance between them but I always felt that the sound coming from the top lacked spaciousness so what I did was to put them at the very top of each corners of the front wall and wow!, now the sound is more spacious and crisp, I didn't know what I was missing!, the crossover frequency is very important, in my case I set it to 150Hz since that's the recommended setting when the size of the speaker cone is 2.7 inches.
how high are your 4 surrounds? and how high do you have the 6 atmos speakers above them. I have to have my 4 surrounds a far bit higher the ear level and almost speakers are 30 cm above them. i had to use angles and ceiling mount the atmos speakers as there isnt much space directly above the surround speakers.
Hi! My ear level speakers are all at the same height. All tweeters are at 47" off the ground, right where my ears sit. My height speakers are 9 feet off the ground, so about 5 feet higher than the speaker tweeters.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I have cut out 12 holes in my ceiling. I went from 2 speakers at 0°. Then 4 at +55° and -55°. Then 6 at +55°, 0°, -55° . (Based on recommendations from respected people on RUclips, Audioholics, Anthony Gremani , Home Theatre gurus etc.) Then I watched Techno Dad's atmos renderer videos. Which threw a spanner in the works.
So, I decided to make six extra holes that are in line with the bed layer. Lots of moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and recalibration, and listening, and moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and listening, and recalibration... on and on it went.
But..... I think Channa is right. So thanks, Techno Dad, many more man hours later, it sounds right. Guess it's time to start filling in those original holes.🙄
Wow! That's a lot of work...I applaud you for taking the time and energy to experiment and go with a setup based on what you have found to be the best setup. I'm glad I could help...I can't help you fill those holes though...
@@TechnoDad you probably could. But I don't want to find out what your day rate is!
@@Britishbandogge overhead drywall patching and skim coating is a young man’s game; I’m now at 72, so anything under 50 qualifies. 🤭
@@fonkenful I'm 37, so I have no excuse! But it's done now. (I'm glad I had the foresight to keep and label the drywall cutouts). There is now no evidence of the carnage that had taken place previously in that room. I guess it's a bit like a serial killer selling an apartment...
@@Britishbandogge Dexter Gordon and the art of home theatre install. 😵💫
Note position of speakers at 12:33 and 12:46 in the pro mixing room. Would it not be best to recreate that layout used in the studio to monitor the mix? Those speakers appear to fall within dolby instruction rather than following your suggestions here.
Any chance you can comment on the speaker layout in the mixing room?
This!
Honestly, Channa is 💯 correct on this...he is basically describing an Auro3D setup. It's better than the Dolby recommendation and still works fine for Atmos.
Yep, pretty much!
auro 3d basically uses old dolby layout.dolby ditched it bc it didnt work.just read guides for studio layout bc the normall consumer layou has compromises for normal living room.dont get why consumer guide is fucked up
@@bigben9056 The height layout works perfectly. In fact, the science says that the height layout is absolutely better than just Atmos "Top" channels alone. Wilfried van Balen of Auro did a ton of research on this fact and has freely shared this information. The Japanese TV corporation NHK has also done extensive research into immersive audio and height content (their format is older than Dolby's. They were giving demos way back in 2005) and their research came to the same conclusion as Wilfried did. Height is a superior position to Ceiling (Top-down). Now, Auro3D chose 30 degree height positioning and NHK chose 45 degree height positioning, but ultimately they are all mounted and processed as height channels. DTS:X and IMAX Enhanced also use height channel processing for its default 7.1.4 positions. In all these formats except Atmos, the Top/ceiling mounted channels are specifically for flyover effects directly above the audience. Most of the height effects are designed to come from above the front, side and rear soundstages (especially reflections and reverberations designed to mimic a specific acoustical space such as a cave or a spaceship etc)
Seriously, google NHK 22.2 or Hamasaki 22.2. The results they came up with are interesting (and eye-opening)
So your suggestion here is that we put the top speakers on the side walls aligned vertically above the bed speakers..?
The come closer "I don’t care" was personal 😂😂
HAHAHA!
@@TechnoDadcould even have some salty slang in there - it took me a long time to realize that “…at a rolling donut” was just a euphemism.
lol channeling your inner fresh hater jay there
@@angelajudetv Yup!
Loved it
I don't think the diagram contradicts itself at 10:06, yeah the seating position between the ear level speakers changed, but that does not matter because this diagram is meant to show the angles for the height speakers. And if we compare the height speakers relative to the seating position for the big diagram and the small one, they seem to be identical. It's not telling you where to place your seating position, that's what the large diagram is for, it's only meant to show the angles for the height speakers and their placement.
performance.
but just to say - i followed the prime elevation manual where it said to "place ypur height speakers as close as possible to the ceiling" and this is where your atmos tester revealed the defects. due to them being close to the ceiling AND the sidewalls (like in the DAR) they caused a lot of echo and completely messed up the directionality of the sound. so i moved it down and closer together - i had my wife hold the speaker up while listening to your tester and then decided on the position.
so i'd say yes on this proposal as a general guide but always.. test first!
you always want to be away from sidewalls, even with the front ear leval. I think the main princinble is keep them at the same palce as your ears just higher, which typically are as close to the screen edge as possible.
100%!! Test and listen. I hope she didn't have to hold them up for too long! LOL!
@@TechnoDad she appreciated the difference in sound as well.. worth all the blabbering during that time 😂😂
i'll be considering speaker on a stick next time (those parts doesnt seem to be easily available here)
I totally agree with you. This is why I feel that in any given day Auro 3D is better than Dolby Atmos. The addition of an extra layer exponentially increases the intensity of immersion. I do reallt feel bad that Auro 3D doesn't get the credit it deserves. Dolby clearly has the edge through their aggressive marketing. Thank you for making this video, you have meticulously put together your careful observations.
Very interesting and makes total sense. I have a 7.1.4 system in my living room, so full of compromises. I had to go for in ceiling speakers for my hight channels so need to bring them in closer to be able to get the best out of them. I’m assuming that if you are advocating putting speakers in the corners, it would be better to use bookshelf sized speakers angled to the listener?
would only seem sensible so ..what a waste of money i did ...is it time for some bigger speakers ?
Yes, Curtis, I would use a bookshelf speaker mounted high up on the front and rear wall.
Should you place them directly above front rear speakers - ceiling mount if necessary?
Hmm, so yes, my back surround and sidesurrounds are not placed on ear level, why? Because it's my living room. Just not gonna happen. So it's not exactly how the artists intended it to be placed, but hey, it sounds 500x better than those goofy soundbars, and it's not the end of the world that your soundstage is some what lifted
Ow I totally agree with TD about height channels. I have just 2 height speakers, but they,re NOT in my ceiling but right above my front speakers. If I going to place back height surrounds they will be right above my back surrounds
Living rooms are pretty rough. I know mine in the last home was a tough place to put an Atmos setup, but I was able to get 5.1.4.
the whole intendtion here is for you to do whatever means necessary to do it correctly. what is wrong with you?
@@TechnoDadso in a 5.1.4 were your height above your base speakers?
I believe thats what hes saying, mirroring the speakers!@@randolphsettgast12
I settled for a soundbar sub, and rear speakers 5.1.(2) set up for my lounge, because I only use Blu-ray, and have noticed most of them carry dts X as their only audio source. I'm not going to go with 4k discs, so this fits my audio needs while being aesthetically smaller than a full system. The dts sound fills the room better than the few Atmos discs I have. And as usual, I am the only one in the house that pores over these decisions. The .2 is in brackets because the q600b upfiring are half the power of the mains, and bring some atmosphere, but not height.
I completely understand your reasoning here. You have to do what's right for your room.
You are RIGHT. I have placed four atmos in the four corners aligned with the floor speakers and the Atmos sounds are BEST. I have placed at 45º and when a sound is in FRONT TOP, they sound from that point, not towards me.
The problem is that you say about these people chatting in forums that they think that are engineers or something else and place the diagrams of Dolby over all, and they cannot discute it.
I go to the BEST mix sound editing room here in Spain and there isn´t any theather that will mimic that experience that I feel, and that was about 14 years ago!. And they have placed the speakers LIKE YOU SUGGEST. A lot of them, of course, because want to mimic a theater enviroment (more of 30 speakers for sure).
Only when I add my humble four atmos speakers following my ideas, not the Dolby specs, I feel PART of that experience I sense.
So YES, you are RIGHT, sir!
13.2 does me , it took a while but base level are all at ear level once seated, my height speakers are all same level and the top speaker is above my seat and it blows me away.. 😊
Nice!!!
good to hear other people are having an elevated experience with this setup (pun intended)
Top speaker? Like voice of God channel? What speaker placement are you using, exactly?
Dude, I had this same conversation talking to a buddy of mine when listening to demos. He wants me to set up his system and I was telling him why I recommend having the atmos speakers match the positions of the bed layer. He kept going back to the dolby charts and I kept explaining why the bed layer is so good at placing sound in the room and why having the top layer match that exactly would be best. Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Awesome video and keep up the good work man!
Ayyy! This is what I've known for the past year and I have been waiting to make this video. I'm so glad I did. Thank you for sharing!
@@TechnoDad I wish you would have made this last year as now I have already drilled the holes and installed the speakers! What is your take on position of front left and right speakers? How far from the front wall should they be? Some people recommend 4 feet from the front wall, but that looks pretty funky, but it would be directly under my atmos speakers at that point. Should I move the fronts out 4 feet or cut new holes and move the atmos speakers?
I just bought a new set of seven speakers for my AVR/surround system. This video makes me want to try to use the older ones for height speakers now. I have a 10x12 living room and I have to use the 10 foot distance for the front to rear. I’m sitting about 8 feet away from the screen and have nothing but wall behind me. Except for a window that I don’t want to block.
My A/V amp is a Yamaha RX-V683. I don’t know exactly what it is capable of really doing. Right now the front speakers are placed in a “V” formation from the center to the mains to the front presence speakers at about 7 feet high. These could be put higher since I have 9 foot ceilings. The two surround speakers are placed on the walls about 3 feet above and slightly behind me, in the rear corners of the room. I’m in the left corner of the room and there’s no other way to arrange the furniture.
After watching this video, you have made me want to (at least) move the main speakers to the front corners of the room at ear level. This won’t be easy for the left side because I have to go up and around a door frame with a third thick gauge wire.
I can’t really lower the surround speakers because a piece of furniture is in the way.
If you can picture this layout, what do you think of it? And is it improvable? Like I said, no furniture can be moved to another location in this small house. Simply because there’s no room to put it anywhere else. Thanks for your opinion.
A reminder has been set ☺- You can do both by integrating design features so that they aid the sound and video, items in the room remain functional and also look nice and not like you are in a black coffin. I am glad you brought this subject up. Using common can get you results that deliver both, but of course if common sense was a currency we would all be rich. Love this video 👌
Its important to go through this thought process and fully understand what it is you are trying to accomplish before starting any kind of construction.
I think the issue here is that people started building home theaters to include Atmos before we had all the information at hand. The first few years of Atmos installation was all basically beta-testing and experimemtation. The price of being an early adopter.
Watch the fireballs scene of Dungeons and Dragons near the end and tell me if it sounds right when the fireball hits the building up on the top left there.
My 4K Copy of that is at my old house...maybe I can stream it? I'll have to see.
good movie
Great information Techno Dad.I'm still using The Yamaha Rx 583 for 5.2.2. I went 4 channel in 1973/4 with 8 track tapes, anyone remember the 4 channel FM broadcast You needed 2 FM tuners.
Toby!!! Keep rocking that Yamaha…until the wheels fall off.
While I haven't tested my system and am nowhere near an expert like TD, I wanted to chime in a fair warning from my experience. I DO have my Atmos speakers up in the corners directly above my surrounds similar to the diagram here, and I can say I've almost NEVER gotten a true 'overhead' sound effect. So while this placement makes sense, there definitely is still a concept of angle and separation at play here. I think for my setup to have a true 'overhead' experience, I'd need them about two feet in on the ceiling - in line with my front mains. I'm not sure how y'all are getting an overhead effect with a corner mounted speaker that's far out from the MLP but it may not work for everyone.
How far back are your surround speakers? Surround speakers should be between 90 degrees and 110 degrees. You don't want to go too much further back than that. If you have 7 ear-level speakers (with Rear Surrounds as well as Sides) then you should try your best to put your surrounds at 90 degrees. At worst, put them at 100 degrees. You should be splitting the distance (equidistant) between the Front mains and the rear surrounds.
If your surrounds are at around 100 degrees, mounting your side surrounds above them, you will have definitive overhead effects. There will be no question.
Try the opening scene of Man of Steel, the part on Krypton. There are two moments when Kryptonian ships fly directly overhead and use their P.A. system. It should sound like a singular Voice of God channel directly above you. I am currently using Surround heights mounted at about 100 degrees and that images overhead perfectly. About 95% of how it sounded back when I had them mounted at 90 degrees directly overhead.
Performance. Just 1 question. What about the angels everybody is talking about. Or just put the speakers on the richt spot and angle them to main listingposition?
If I wanted to roll with angles, I would do 30 degrees up for front heights and the same on the other end, 30 degrees up from the rear surrounds.
Finally!! I've been waiting for a video like this forever. Amazingly simple and logical topic. Thanks, Channa! 🍻
Thank you! I've been "trying" to make this for a year now...I guess it was the right time...
@@TechnoDad - Absolutely! Thank you, sir! 🍻
I agree. This is the best video you've made, period 😊. Great summary!
@@isak6626 Thank you so much!
7.1.6 is the best, but when the space is limited you go with 5.1.4... in the case of limited funds and the 5.1.2 is the only option is bette ti have the 2 atmos channels as front high or on top of the main sitting position?
The official atmos layout gives me original Dolby Surround vibes, like just put some speakers there to give you a vague sensation of height, and sound coming from above, and your suggestion is more of the placing sound accurately exactly where it's encoded to live.
So if I understood correctly. I dont have to worry about the 30 degree or 45 degree angles, just place the height speakers exactly above the bed layer and I should have a wonderful Atmos, Auro experience?
You have to keep it within that 30°-45° range because if you go too high, you lose the coherence between your ear-level speaker and the height speaker.
@@joentellhi Joe, so should I put my left channel and right channel 45 degrees off the MLP each? Just wondering if you and TD changed your setups to reflect 45 degree angles after making the spatial calibration toolkit given your findings about when something appears in the left or right channel.
Just want to make sure my bedlayer is setup correctly before mirroring it with the heights.
@@joentellmy ceiling is 7.5 feet tall should I still worried about the angles. I am still not sure about how to implement technodad's suggestion. Because it appears I just have to copy my bed layer up above.
With multiple rows, the speakers at home should be just above ear level so it's not blocked. My surrounds are actually just below ear level and some sounds still sound like they're over my head from the side surrounds (HRTF in the recorded sounds affects placement too). Most of these mixes are designed for the movie theater and their surrounds tend to be considerably above ear level anyway. So this notion that Atmos needs speakers at or below ear level is erroneous. You want separation between layers, but the layers don't have to be exactly at ear level. You do generally want to keep front/rear lower layer speakers relatively consistent with each other. If possible, LCR mains should be behind an audibly transparent screen. If not, you can employ a "dialog lift" mixer (Yamaha builds the feature into its AVRs) to simulate it with TVs and the like as well.
Hi, love your content! Does your opinion aboht height speaker placement change depending on the ceiling height of the room? For example, 6' vs 10' vs 15'? Looking at the Atmos box, can you guesstimate the room dimensions based on the screen size?
I haven't really thought about 15 foot ceilings. Obviously, a 6 foot ceiling would be pretty rough. I think 8 feet hight is a great place to put the speakers. My new Atmos mixing room has 10 foot ceilings, but I am placing the heights at 8 feet high.
That’s the reason why Dolby spec specifies angle not height above the main speakers. If angle is preserved it doesn’t matter how high is your ceiling - it will come from the specific point.
I think showing a room/box shape is misleading. It should show the way auro3d shows a bubble. Then people can visualize why angles make sense - it’s not about corners in your space! Sound traveling to your front Atmos speaker is ok - it doesn’t mean it travels closer into your room if your ceiling is lower - it means it comes from that direction. So if it’s mixed to go up above the front soundstage it either will be mixed with front channels or spl will be lower than when coming from front speakers - mimicking greater distance of the object to you. If your room was square and your main listening position was in the middle it’s possible at certain ceiling height to have Atmos speakers directly over front and rear speakers whilst maintaining 45 degree to them.
With Auro3d they say to put over main speakers - front and side surrounds but at the same time they say to have them at 30 degrees. This is not possible with all rooms at variable ceiling heights.
This issue with atmos is not everyone has a movie theater room setup, a movie room I would assume is very square, most home aren't built that way unless you custom built your house to include this
Apparently, there are a lot of homes in Texas that have media rooms which are pretty ideal for a theater.
@@TechnoDad While that’s true, most builders have no clue how big to make the media rooms. Most are 12x12 or 11x10 etc. I just closed on a plan that has a 14x17 media room which I can work with. Would have preferred 14x22 ideally.
Performance all day every day. Attractive theater style seating combined with awesome lighting definitely grasps my attention. But beautiful video on a large screen combined with immersive sound is what blows me away.
Awesome!
Great effort making the video, but after trying both options with front and rear heights, and in ceiling I prefer the home theater gurus option with in ceiling speakers. To me it was a big difference. 8’ wasn’t tall enough to noticed a good separation between base layer and front and rear height
First, I'm glad you found something that works well for you.
You will hear more sound when a speaker is physically closer to you, no doubt. The tradeoff is less accurate positioning of height objects based on the Atmos renderer and coherence between the ear-level speakers and heights. Just like stereo imaging breaks when placed too close or too far, the same thing happens with height speakers.
Dumb question… Just to confirm, if you are doing a 5.1.4 setup you should do surround heights above your surround left and right speakers? Also, would a 5.1.6 work? There is no available back wall, but the ceiling does continue.
I'm in the same position.
Well...that does make sense. However...when using surround height position, the way sounds are matrixed between the front height and rear height are not going to sound correct 100%. Maybe setting the rear height to top middle? That might work a bit better.
@@TechnoDad Thanks for the info, I appreciate it!... Maybe I can pick up some Monoprice THX satellites and try out some different positions (and position settings in AVR) before turning my ceiling/walls into Swiss cheese lol. Also, I could always repurpose the Monoprice THX satellites to garage speakers with a little sub.
@@synergyxx Ive found setting the tops to top front and top rear(not height) is what works best in 5.1.4, and placing the speakers about 2ft in front of and behind MLP and 20% of the room from the side walls to the MLP. This will put the MLP in an atmos bubble and will provide very good separation of atmos effects from fronts and surrounds while offering very good matrixing
I just watched your video on my home theater system. I have six up firing speakers. My system pretty much followed your Atmos demo. Not exactly, but sounded pretty close. The sound seemed to go up the front wall and not towards me during those examples. The sound seemed to be pretty darn close to your demo so I'm pretty happy about that. I have a Nakamichi Dragon 11.4.6 home theater system and tuned my system with your Spatial Audio Calibration Tool as best I could. Made a real difference in how my system sounds so thank you for that tool kit! It may not be a perfect system, but the Atmos is way better than my Bose 900 Soundbar system it replaced. I think it has more to do with having more power to bounce those sounds off the ceiling better and having six speakers to do it with.
So I have a 7.3.4... where do I put the front height channel speakers? in the front or in the middle.. currently they are in the middle..
The idea of the .4 setup is to have height speakers in front and behind your seating position, while sitting between them all. That way sounds can pan from front to back above you. And ideally, if they are wide dispersion speakers angled toward you, all 4 would sum together above your head, essentially creating a virtual phantom set of Top Middle speakers.
It all depends on how large your room is. I have had both setups and I like the heights to mimic the front and rear speakers. Selfishly, as I want my Atmos mixes to translate better to my Atmos home theater. I would say try it first before you mount anything. I use the speaker on a stick method - ruclips.net/video/h7NWteMPO5A/видео.html
So where do you position the middle height speakers when the side surrounds are adjacent to the seating position. The seating position is 1/3 from the back wall. Do you colocated them with the side surrounds or in the middle of the room?
Great question!
yeah you would if you are trying to follow this advice. but if you havd 6 heights, thats where they should be anyway. for either method.
I would put the middle heights above the MLP, or just in front of the MLP and above. That way, you will get separation of the overhead effects and the rear effects.
I had a friend telling me about this concept while I was upgrading from a .2 overhead to a .4 and I thought it was very interesting. I then found your channel and downloaded your test video that had sounds going straight up and down from the base speakers and it clicked for me. I know have all four overhead speakers directly above the front and surround speakers and it sounds fantastic. Thanks for pushing this topic, it makes perfect sense. Now I have to redo my living room....half the fun right? Right guys?
so you dont have overhead effects and bad separation.remember to aim all speakers.damn people dont understand how human ears pick up sounds from above
@@bigben9056 Thats why you do 6 height channels. This guy is using SURROUND HEIGHTS and thus, have speakers close enough to put sounds directly overhead. Some Atmos processors will use Surround Heights with Atmos (Trinnov, Storm, D&M etc)
You is da man TD. I will remember this stuff when I get my room.
Thank you Timothy!!
@@TechnoDad you're welcome
I would love to have a 7.1.6 system. Unfortunately my receiver can only handle 7.1.4 with an extra amp. Will be a while before I can get all the speakers but will see how it turns out at some point.
Yeah, they are pricey...but the Denon X6700H has dropped in price. That's the one I use for 7.1.6 - amzn.to/3VOLZsG
@@TechnoDad Thanks very much
Interesting take.
I am (counter to your assertion LOL) running a 9.2.6 system in my (heavily treated) living room...
I experimented a LOT with placement and ultimately my 6 overhead speakers (SVS Prime Elevations) are directly above my L, R, LS, RS, LR, and RR speakers at the top of the walls. (which is NOT an option my Anthem AVM 70 has LOL so I lied and said they're in the ceiling).
After running ARC multiple times after any small change I am completely delighted with the results... Any friends or family who I demo the system for are astounded by how detailed Atmos placing of sounds is and how seamless any panning sound is.
That said... I only ever listen to music through straight L&R or if it's heavy live music and I feel rowdy maybe L&R plus subs. 😉
Can't quite abide the multi-channel music... even live I don't listen from the stage... Music naturally comes from in front of me into my two ears so it's easily reproduced by two speakers in front of me... but like you said "you do you" 😅.
My system is a 5.1 at ear level, but I think you're correct. Multi channel music is also making similar advances as they are moving the sound stage around the room for some arrangements.
Thanks!
I have a family/living room and I do not have any options for a dedicated home theater. It is what it is. 😊
Thank you this was very informative. Is. Logical extension to this line of thought that we should have a center rear speaker as well?
I agree with the logic but recommend you follow up with some speaker form-factor recommendations and perhaps left-right placement recommendations. The dots you have in the graphic you are using to demonstrate your point would suggest that you don't recommend any in-ceiling channels put rather would use angled atmos speakers at the front side - directly to the side or slightly in front of and to the side of the listening position, and to the back and side of the listening position. Or would you use in-ceiling for the center atmos channels?
I understand what you’re saying. Yes, I would recommend front and rear heights with small bookshelf speakers mounted up high on the walls almost in the corners. The ideal middle heights would be in ceiling firing downward
I go for performance. I don't mind seeing the speakers in my Living/Media Room. I just don't want a big screen & a projector. I think any Living Room could benefit from Acoustic Treatments. I will eventually get a Micro LED Display to put into my room with JTR Speakers system throughout.
Wow! Those are some big speakers!
I have a 7.2.4 setup and I’ve had to move the furniture around which means that my surrounds left and right now have the top front left and right ceiling speakers directly above them. I was going to use the Dolby angles etc to move the ceiling speakers forward but after watching this video am I correct in that you are suggesting where they are now is the more logical position? Would save me cutting more holes!
Let's say the best I can set up right now is 5.x.4, which I recently did. I currently have the height speakers in a box around me, where the walls meet the ceiling, pointed at the MLP. There is a pretty even angular split between my surround (which are further rear than ideal but it's what the room allows), the rear heigh, the front height, and then the fronts. Would you instead recommend moving the heights directly over the fronts and rear surrounds instead of this dome like situation which I tried to setup? Or is my solution better since I am limited to 4 heights and if I moved front and back then there would be a big gap overhead?
and follow up question, if I could expand to 2 more speaker with a separate amp, would you recommend going 5.x.6 over 7.x.4?
So would you say that the speaker layout for Dolby Atmos should be closer to Auro3D with speaker placement in corners facing down at 45°? Should they also be angled towards the listening position on the sidewalls and corners? Would like your input on that. I've been mulling over my Heights for a while now and looking for advice on where to put them and how best to proceed. I've always appreciated your no-nonsense input on performance versus aesthetic versus angles and following charts. Thanks, Techno Dad!
Do you think placing the front and rear height speakers in the corners is more important than keeping them equidistant to the MLP? Also, if they are down firing in ceiling speakers and not aiming at the MLP, does that affect your findings or not?
Depends on where they are placed. Maybe equidistant is good if that’s what the space will allow.
@@TechnoDad Lol, ok. Let me be a bit more specific. MLP is at 2/3 room length. Would you recommend putting the front heights equidistant from MLP or back to the front wall?
Great work. I agree with your research. The theater room will be energized accurately with balanced sound. Especially, if the bed layer speakers still support the atmos speakers with sound. You will feel the helicopter all around you as it passes through. The sound will be on another level. This is part of the reason why home theaters sound much better than commercial theaters. The sound is in your face and you could feel it move around the room with impact. Commercial theaters doesn't give you the same experience.
The main thing I got from this video is that I was right to stop engaging with HT groups on Facebook.
100%!!
They are fun to engage with. You just have to take it for what it is. Simply a fun diversion. Some people take those groups way too seriously.
Same with hi-fi (2 channel) groups. Full of "experts" who will always advise you to buy something more expensive. The very same people will push their speakers up against the walls, advise you to buy a very expensive speaker cable for your $250 pair of speakers because it will do some kind of magic to your system... etc. So tired of these fb experts I haven't read anything in those groups for more than 6 months now. Many of them claim to know everything yet are probably deaf and/or delusional.
Go bigger than that - stop interacting with FB altogether :)
And AVS forum.
Hey techno dad, so does this mean I should stick my rears in the corners of the room? Or do I just line up my rears with my front stage and basically put them across from wherever my left and right front speakers are?
I would put them above the mains.
@@TechnoDad sounds good, so where ever my rear bed-layer speakers are, the rear heights go right above that. Thanks! 🙏
@@TechnoDad so do the rear bedlayer speakers just sit across from the front left and right channel bedlayer speakers?
I have a 7.2.6 system. The 6 height speakers are connected to a separate 6 channel emotiva basx amp. When I turn off the bed layer speakers and listen to just the height speakers, there really isn't much coming from the heights. I watched the bombing scene from Midway just before this reply and there are plenty of bullets whizzing by and another plane passing overhead but for the majority of the scene the heights are silent. Knowing what I know now, I think I can get the same results with a 7.2.4 system using in ceiling speakers that are located slightly in front and behind of my primary listening position. Don't skimp on side surround speakers, there is plenty of sound coming from these bed level speakers.
Have you heard any of my Atmos mixes, Mike? I think you may enjoy them. Here's the newest one - bit.ly/OMKNEWSGDARAtmos
Do you have the volume of the heights cranked up high enough? Try the "Riddles in the Dark" scene from the Hobbit..
do you recommend the rear heights be directly above the rear surrounds or in the corner? I currently have two in wall rear surrounds that are at ear level hieght and 5 ft between them.. should the rears heights also be directly above the, and 5 ft apart or should they pushed more into the corners?
Hmmmm...can you send me pictures? I can't seem to picture that - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
Huh. I thought Atmos systems map the location of your speakers in the room and can adjust the volume of multiple speakers to create the 3d soundstage. Does this not actually work? Or is it just down to how well reflections are treated in room?
I think this concept works great but only if you have 10 to 12-ft ceilings. Someone like me with Atmos at 8 and 1/2 ft. It's hard to get enough separation between the side surrounds and if I were to have Atmos channels directly above on the walls.
I’m about trial and error. I won’t just assume one is better than the other, I would try them out. I’ve done that. So I would say, try it out and see what’s up.
Sooooo... I do not have a dedicated room. My setup is in my living room, that opens up into my kitchen off to the side. My current AVR is only a 7 channel AVR. As of right now I only have 2 speakers for Atmos/Height. They are not on the ceiling yet. I have them sitting on my towers facing up. My main listening area is further back closer to the back wall and I have two couches along each side wall. Where do you recommend I put my two height speakers for the time being? Front stage up high? Mid way on ceiling or high wall? Or One front, one back middle ceiling? Or any other suggestion. Room is a rectangle with angled ceilings. I will be upgrading my AVR eventually to a 11 or 13 channel.
Great video - thanks for the thought provoking content. I have a question. Does the Dolby renderer send different signals to your speakers based on whether you tell your AVR you are using height speakers or top speakers? In other words will a top front right speaker get different signals sent to it by the renderer than a front height right speaker? 🤔
The renderer won’t know that distinction, it just sends sounds to that speaker when the object is placed in that location. Changing that designation in the AVR will make the AVR change its delay I would imagine, but not change the signal itself.
@@TechnoDadThat is correct for Dolby Atmos but not for DTS:X, I actually discovered recently that DTS:X sends the top information differently and I had to buy a new 5.1.2 receiver because my previous one was limited in that regard, I am still waiting for it and I will send you an email explaining in detail the reason why I had to replace the AVR and also why I will have to go from front height to top middle.
The world is a sphere and Atmos is a cuboid. Got it. And hot damn, that extreme close-up STILL looked 4K crispy. Gotta love that FX3, baby! 😄
Ayyy! Yeah, that with the 35mm GM lens is pretty sharp…but even if it wasn’t…”I wouldn’t care…”
I completely agree. I am in the process of building my home theater, but currently I only have a 6.1 receiver and separate amps. Often I even turn off my center because I have such an amazing phantom center. This absolute proof that the same can happen with the height speakers. Heck even with just my two front towers playing some of the 8D tracks on RUclips, I can even hear height. Whenever I am ready to buy a new receiver, I will have pre-wires for ceiling speakers, but i will probably experiment with speaker placement and settings. Will you have any more info for settings/adjustments for the height channels? Or is it as intuitive as I'm thinking...? Thanks!
If you are going to experiment with height speakers, I would look at my Speaker on a Stick design to test out height speaker locations - ruclips.net/video/h7NWteMPO5A/видео.htmlsi=WD4m1phNIxrerZT9
@TechnoDad interesting take, what should be those speakers? In -ceiling facing down? Atmos speakers at an angle towards the MLP?
Oh man!!! I did exactly what you said not to do. Although I’m extremely limited with my living room space and vaulted ceilings, and open concept. I did a 7.2.4 and my 4 heights are midway towards front/rear to seating position
So you’re saying if you do a 5.1 setup the ideal setup would be 5.1.4 where as if you did a 7.1 setup the ideal would be 7.1.6 correct
Yes, precisely!
I have 5.2.4 system 👌🏽
I’m getting the Samsung 9500s rears it’s for my bedroom and my bed is pretty close to the back wall where the speakers are going just wondering how far away and height should they be my room is 10ftw by 12ftd my soundbar system will be 7.1.4
With 7.1 and adding 4 height channels for Atmos as Front Heights and Rear Heights, what is the recommended placement of these Front and Rear Heights.
Place Front Heights to top of where left and right speakers are placed? What about Rear Heights, same line behind Surround Back Left and Right?
Can someone please suggest what is recommended from Height Placement? Thanks
Aren't these issues he is talking about corrected with proper calibration and time alignment? Cause if top fronts are not above LR but slightly forward towards MLP then you time shift it so the sound comes out exactly at the moment when it comes from LCR. The speaker placement shouldn't be that of an issue. For example I have LR surrounds like 1 foot below ceiling. Most of the time it sounds right and not like going from ceiling. Maybe if you super focus on it then you pick it up but otherwise quite fine. The speakers are there to paint the image and they can create illusion line the sound is coming from different place then the speaker is located. I have C in the ceiling and angled towards MLP. Doesn't sound AT ALL like it's coming from the ceiling.
Great video! Your focus was more on the height speakers, but what do you think about the main bed layer? Shouldn't our 5/7 bed layer speakers be setup in a box format as well than instead of what dolby recommends? I've never understood why our rear or surround speakers should be so close to us in atmos.
I think the ideal is a square box room, you sit in the middle. Speakers in every corner, both at ear level and height level. Then a main center channel.
If you only have 5, the surrounds are intended (by Dolby) to be more beside you and only a little bit behind you. Maybe 110° to 120°. When you have 7.1, the side surrounds move go 90° and the rear surrounds move to around 150° in general, the front mains should be the front wall, the rear surrounds should be the rear boundry and the side-surrounds should be exactly halfway between them.
You could set up a 5.1 like a Quadrophonic setup with the addition of a center channel, but the rear surrounds being that far back has some weird psychoacoustic effects. Thats one of the reasons the rear surrounds are not used often for sustained playback.
Also acoustically you REALLY don’t want a square room with all equal sides.
Yes! I think it would be great to have the front L & R and Rear L & R in the corners.
@@clintstuckey There is a rather square room of 8,1 x 7,2 meter x 2,55m height (or ratios of 3.18 x 2.82 x 1) in which there are no axial resonance modi below 182Hz, nor retromodi and also no other than axial modi below 165Hz
@@FURognar the general laws of acoustics regarding boundary reflectios and interference at listenig level always apply, meaning in 2.0 or surround the spakers need to be away from the walls quite a bit (min 5ms of 90cm/3ft; preferably 10-20ms or ven further into the room - law of ellipses). This was proven by Jeremy Kipnis in his Beta studio, together with having a subwoofer per speaker , distanced no further apart than half the distance of the cut-off wavelength (ie. never in the corners of the room)
I don't see any receivers set up for 6 height speakers. I see 4 outputs, but not 6. How do you power the 5th and 6th speaker and make sure they're getting the correctly coded signal?
Does this require a $20k receiver or what? Also, I had an Aperion audio 7.1 set up in my last house and was happy with their speakers. Are there any others out there on par with Aperion audio that I should take a look at? Thanks.
This is a superb video, thank you. I have wondered about doing this and tomorrow I am moving my four heights to above my main and rear speakers.
I'm probably wrong, but I think for rear speakers I don't like direct radiating speakers but I like Dipole/Bipole speakers. Atmos speakers can be mounted at ceiling on upper wall with a slant speaker.
I had bipolar as surrounds for quite some time.
@Tachno Dad, my receiver supports only four heights channels with 7 base layer channels. With 8 ft ceiling heights, which positions do you recommend for four heights channels with seating around 14-15 ft from the screen? I have about 5 ft space behind the seats.
Hey Daddyman ...Does this make a difference when I use Auro 3D also ?
This is essentially an Auro-3D layout except for the VOG will be matrix’d between the two middle heights. The middle heights would be best to be in ceilings pointing down at the MLP.
I love taking myself down a virtual rabbit hole on this topic.
I see why 7.4.6 is recognized as your theater selection preference as opposed to the 7.1.4 drawing with its flaws.
The software must place the front height in the upper LR corners of the space. This is wrong in the drawing and software. The speakers in the 7.1.4 drawing are actually positioned closer to the height wide left and right but don’t act that way in the software. The software positions them incorrectly in the front of the physical space.
7.4.6 fixes the glitch in the matrix by actually placing a LRHeights in the front and the height wides act as they should.
In a living room, a small room ( acoustically speaking)how do we compromise with 8’ ceilings? I don’t care buy my CD and figure it out! 😂
Like others have said, the actual studio room at 12:42 contradicts with what you are saying. Instead you point at the software on the PC, where it is unclear what is shown. I haven't seen you comment on that scene. Would you mind explaining that part?
It's hard for beginners to understand, but I believe the receiver knows how far the speakers are from the calibration, therefore it wouldn't matter much if those front heights are completely in the corner or not.
But instead of going more in depth, you are selling some kind of calibration tool? This video feels more like an ad at this point unfortunately. Please do clarify.
So, according to the 3D picture, the bed layer is placed at the floor? So, much lower than ear level? If so, are the speakers angled up toward the listening position?
No, that’s just the ear level location…
i got that and agree... and by watching i noticed, that i mounted everything like you said about 4 years ago😂 why did i do this? because i did not look at the atmos recommendation. i did it because that made the most sense to me. but what about angles of the top speaker. do you think they should all pointed to the MLP via pivoting ect. ? exept the middle tops?
Techno Dad I have a question, I’m using a 9.2.4 system now. Should I ditch the extra wide channels and use the extra heights instead for Movies and Games?
If heights are above bed, then your heights are further away from mlp than bed. Without correction, the helicopter would sound like it’s rising and moving away. Instead of just rising. Correction corrects this, the same as correction would correct speakers not directly above bed. At least I would think. Less correction is more better. So bringing those heights in to match more closely the distance from mlp would be superior. Ideally all speakers are the exact same distance from mlp, a true bubble. Which would imply you don’t put heights directly above. I’m not arguing one way or the other…I’m really just talking to myself…
Hi,
just for the right understanding. My MLP is about a third of my room. Where should I put my side surrounds? 80°, 110° or exactly at 90°. In your layout the 6 atmos speaker are front/rear heights and top middles? So you have compatibility to Auro3d with VOC. Although the position for the top middles are side heights???
thx ☺
95-100 degrees
@@HTadd1ctok thx
And the Atmos speaker heights and TM or all speaker tops ?
Respect. Definitely something to try and see if the difference is big. To be clear, just for the bed layer, you'd move surround to the middle of room and surround back to the back corners?
I put the side surrounds on the sides of the MLP and surround back to the back corners. Keep the speakers in line though…
So I brought my copy of SACT to my friend's house. He's got 7.2.4. Mid and rear heights. He hates me now, confirmed he needs to go to .6 and get those front heights, which also means an upgrade to his AV receiver. BTW SACT is a great upgrade tool. The panning test of the bed layer, makes me want side surrounds.
No he doesn't "need" to go 6 heights because he currently has his 4 in a sub-optimal position. I have my 4 heights at -35 degrees and +35 degrees (or 55 and 125 using the Dolby diagram) and my Atmos sounds amazing. Going to 6 height might be a very marginal improvement but not worth the much extra cost and hassle of re-situating height speakers etc. Your friend just needs to position his 4 correctly and he should notice a huge improvement.
Yeah, 6 height channels is hard to do and the AVR is pricey.
My LCR speakers are line arrays that span from about 2.5 feet off the floor to about a foot from the ceiling (center channel behind the screen). They are 4'6" tall line arrays. Would putting height speakers above the R and L work in this layout? There would essentially be no separation between the R/R height and the L/L height.
I think you've answered your own question...don't think it would work well.
For a 7.1.6 setup as you describe, I"m assuming you'll need a pretty specialized/advanced amp, what do you recommend? or are there tricks to making existing systems that support fewer ceiling speakers support more?
Hello TD, can I ask your opinion? I have a 7.2.4 Martin Logan setup. FLR (60xti/Motion 50xti center) Motion fx front heights and surround back and sides. 8'' Martin Logan Atmos top middle speakers. Emotiva XMC-2 Emotiva XPA-11. My question is would it be better if I used rear heights or rear surround configuration? I truly appreciate your help in this endeavor, thank you.
Hello, where can I download demos, movies or music in Dolby Atmos to test my setup (Denon x3800h with 5.2.4), thank you?
Can you recommend a config for home theater 5.1.4 (upfiring atmos) but surrounds are also having atmos upfirings(9500swa)
??
Makes a lot of sense.. my room is too small for surround back so I have 2 klipsche atmos on the ceiling but very slightly forward of my surrounds. (After watching your video I am honestly wondering what I was thinking not having them in line with the surrounds) I don't have any on the front but can hook up another 2. I am now going to move my 2 atmos speakers to directly above my surrounds and hooking up another 2 above my front left and right. Today I will move my surrounds but need to get more speaker wire before I hook up my front left and right atmos. I got the speakers on another system upstairs which I am not using atm so I just need to get more speaker wire. Makes a lot of sense. I honestly feel I learned something from this video. True hard to take in new information when I always think I know best. I been making music since mid 80's and into home cinema since late 90's...yes when you needed nicam stereo to get a dolby suround signal. :)
I am building a dedicated room in my custom home build. The room will be 18' wide and 23'-6" deep with 10' ceiling. I will have second row seating which will be 15" above the first row. I plan on a 11.4.6 setup using JBL Synthesis in-wall speakers and a Trinnov Altitude processor. How would you recommend placing the 6 ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in this type of configuration?
Sound advice. We merge what we know from both disciplines into a new way of listening in a better immersive listening environment. With the added channel, do you need a processor to handle that or run the new channel in series with the front atmos?
Are you saying place all speakers nearer to the ceiling? I have a 5.1.2 Atmos Onkyo Recevier..
I want to preface I have Bachelors Degree in Live Sound Engineering, the principles of audio cover all areas of audio work. I agree with your video, I have a 7.1.4 currently, I have the option to add two more speakers with a pre-out, It was either Front Wide Pair or going middle height, to me it makes sense to copy the surround Left & right as they are right next to you, so if a heli is going straight up, doesnt matter where in the audio space it should go straight up and the speakers should accurately show that. I also want to say my speaker set up probably goes against every Dolby Atmos setup rule 🤣 I sit at my desk so Im foward of the middle, my height speakers are mounted to the wall in line with my L&R to keep consistancy when audio goes up, same with the rear heights. Your main set of speakers should be at listening height so the tweeter is ear level unless you have two tier seating then the listening location should be on axis to the tweeter. The big issue with ceiling speakers if they are coax or two way speakers, is the tweeter doesnt point towards the listener, so the whole unit need angling however there are models that are purposefuly designed with an angle built in. I would still line them up with the main left and right and put them closeish on the z plane to that location. Just make sure they are time aligned back to the Main speakers. When designing any speaker system, speaker location is extremely important otherwise you can run into standing waves or phase cancellation depending on the speaker and the room. Im not an expert by an means, but my degree really helps.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience!
Hi.. When will the next update be released for the avr-x3800h device.. to support 360 reality audio??. Please respond to me 🙏🙏
The Sony thing? Not sure. I’ll have to look it up….
@@TechnoDad Thanks 🙏🤩
Think it would be worth returning the refurb X3800H for a refurb X6700H to have the extra channels available as I build out my theater? I've got 5.1 with 4 speakers ready to go up for heights, using them as heights instead of tops would actually help maximize PJ screen size since they would be out of the way. Would you put a great base layer over any Atmos? Thanks!
I suppose. Depends on the price difference…
just upgraded to a 9.2ch reciever ..how do i place the ceiling speakers? the front height above the fronts and rear heights above side surround speakers? i have my side surround slightly behind at 110degree
If only having two height speakers, it's probably better to place them above your listening position.
@@TechnoDad im doing 5.1.4 and my mlp is 3ft away from the back wall..my side surrounds are slightly behind at 110degree .. where should the rear heights go? exactly above the side surrounds? or slightly behind?
@@kuronekosan2830 If that's the case, I would still put them above your listening position. Since you don't have front and rear heights, you will not be getting any front to back motion.
@@TechnoDad maybe I didn't explain well ..im doing front heights as well as rear heights
i just dont have rear surround backs for the bed layer..only side surrounds..i know im supposed to have my front heights above my front speakers but what about rear heights where will they go as i dont have rear surround backs..above the side surrounds?
Oh, okay. I would put them behind a little bit
What's the benefit of the calibration disc compared to using Dirac or Audyessy MultiEQ-X?
I use the disk to check to see if the "auto cal" got it right and to use the disk to make corrections. It's nice to use the disk to listen to Channa's objects move smoothly from speaker to speaker once all of the speaker placements and distances are correctly set. It can be done without the disk by setting the AVR to output all speakers stereo and listen for echos. Then the task is to figure out which speaker is set wrong. I'm surely losing hair trying to get my system just right. But, is there a "just right"?
In a 5.1.4 system when the seating is against the wall. For my .4 I clearly want front height, but does it make sense to put the 2nd set above the surrounds or behind the seating position in the corner of the wall to be rear height? (Spacing maybe 6" behind seat).
I would say behind the seating location
Now question @TechnoDad Should the heights 6 of them be pointed/ tilted at mlp or just straight across the room im looking at the Monolith by Monoprice THX Certified Satellite Speakers six of them and will place them as high as i can over the six base layer speakers
Point the height speakers at a point above the MLP. The distance above the MLP that they should point at depends on the dispersion characteristics of the speaker and how much you care about enlarging the sweet spot. Those speakers have very good directivity, so as long as you keep them within 30deg of the MLP, you should be fine. Other speakers you might be limited to
Hey Techno Dad, so should I do 45 degrees to the left and right speakers each based on your previous findings working with the atmos renderer?
I would do that!
@@TechnoDad sounds good, thanks!! 🙏
12:42 Dude just the fact that the speaker layout they are using here is totally different speaks volumes (no pun intended). Do you have a walkthrough of that room’s speaker layout? I guess that is the model room layout we need to emulate.
I’m literally in the process of making a theatre in the next 4 months. Please do a speaker layout walkthrough of one of these studios.
It’s Jonathan Morrison’s studio - ruclips.net/video/9wSXodrtWUA/видео.htmlsi=19ogIDD5DkrGgfN2
naive question, how you wire the extra 2 speakers? it makes all sense. is there a receiver with 3 height outputs.
Hi! You would need an AVR with the ability for 3 sets of height speakers. Denon AVR X6700H is an older one - amzn.to/4ghREhY
Hey T.D. What crossover point is recommended for atmos? Is there much bass, or even mid bass? Would having an 8” compared to a 6.5” make a huge difference? Maybe you could make a video discussing these.
Have you played much with the top / front height settings of speakers in the AVR?
What you’re describing about 11mins in seems like a processor mapping thing? (With the helicopter going up)
At the end of the day, the speaker can try to “fake” the location of the object, but it won’t give you a better experience as placing the speaker in the correct location.
damn, I just left a comment and came back a few minutes later it was gone. Did I get deleted? If so why?
Not sure. You're the second person to say that. I do have a filter on...let me check if you hit one of the no no words. But I don't delete comments.
@@TechnoDad looks like my 2nd reply to you got removed also....crazy.
@@meade916 It's pretty odd. I got an email about this reply, but nothing else. I usually get an email about each comment. If you write it again, copy it before you hit comment or reply, or email me the comment. I'm not 100% sure what's happening.
I was using my two atmos speakers (in a 5.1.2 setup) at the very front height of the ceiling at an equidistant distance between them but I always felt that the sound coming from the top lacked spaciousness so what I did was to put them at the very top of each corners of the front wall and wow!, now the sound is more spacious and crisp, I didn't know what I was missing!, the crossover frequency is very important, in my case I set it to 150Hz since that's the recommended setting when the size of the speaker cone is 2.7 inches.
Sounds like you've got it dialed in!
@@TechnoDad I did!, in due time I will show you my humble speaker setup 👍🏼
so, would you recommend 5.1.4 over 7.1.4?
how high are your 4 surrounds? and how high do you have the 6 atmos speakers above them. I have to have my 4 surrounds a far bit higher the ear level and almost speakers are 30 cm above them. i had to use angles and ceiling mount the atmos speakers as there isnt much space directly above the surround speakers.
Hi! My ear level speakers are all at the same height. All tweeters are at 47" off the ground, right where my ears sit. My height speakers are 9 feet off the ground, so about 5 feet higher than the speaker tweeters.