The Dolby Atmos Issue for 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 Setups and What it Means for You!
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- Опубликовано: 9 янв 2022
- After a week of comments, research, and testing...I have found an issue pertaining to Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 and 5.1.4 setups. What does this mean for you? Check out the video and find out. Last week's video - • Bad Atmos!! Is a 5.1.... What is Auro-3D - • Video Click Show More!
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I’d say just do what you can with your room and speaker setup. Run the auto calibration, tweak the distance, crossover, etc. Then enjoy what you have. My setup isn’t ideal in my living room and I don’t have a spare room to accommodate it. So my surrounds are slight behind me and off to the sides. They’re pretty close to your head depending where you’re sitting on the couch. My setup isn’t how I’d like it to be but it works well for what I have.
Agreed!! Do what you can with what you’ve got. There’s too many Home Theater snobs that just started with an Atmos system. It’s just funny to me…
Rock...you have the most sensible comment here. Basically... "just use whatever you have to work with, the best you can. And...ENJOY IT!!!"
This is the best comment I've seen thus far! First off to Techo Dad, thank you for all the info in this vid. I also have 5.2.4 set up and my couch is against the wall. I do not have the space to accommodate a 7.2.4 so i calibrated my system to sound the best it can for my given space. it sounds amazing and I'm happy with it! At the end of the day YOU are the only person (and your wife) that needs to be happy with your sound.
Yes your right whatever you have to do to make it work even if you don't like the kind of speakers because in the end you might like those little things because they make it work
@@FatFolksProductions hi James, did you put 2 of the 4 ceilingspeakers right on top of your listening position? My couch is also against the wall and i am a bit struggling how to set them up in my room. I also have the denon 6700. Thanks for the help
I thought in general the receiver would re-route the sounds for the missing speakers in a traditional Dolby Digital setup. So if you have a 3.1 system (no surrounds) then the receiver will re-route the audio for the surrounds to your front left and right. At least that’s how I’ve read it in the manuals of the receivers I’ve had.
You are correct. Speaker setup systems for receivers mix that sound into the channels you do have. You aren't missing any sound, but you are not getting the discrete separation audio effect. You can switch the audio mode to 2.1 stereo, and you will still hear everything.
I've got the same room setup. Just upgraded from a 10 year old Pioneer 820k 5.1 to LX305. Also adding 2 height speakers to my ceiling (haven't done that yet, waiting for the weather to warm up before I cut a hole). So I'll be at 5.1.2. My rear speakers are bi-pole and are against the back wall as is my couch. Thanks for the video!
You are always very informative,you know you stuff Channa 👍🏾
First off, your content is great, it tackles a lot of problems, others just scimp over. You go into details, without being to hairy about it. Im always looking forward for your new videos. Jeep up the good work.
I have a similary setup to yours, I have a pair of bipolar speakers at the side of my listening position, on the back wall, with one side facing me, and the other away. This difuses the sound somewhat, i also use the dsp vitual 7 channel option in my Sony DN1080, I know it isnt the Best, but it helps to be more spacious sounding.
I been on the Surround wagon from arround 2000, so tried some different things, but im no expert. But im at a place in the journey, where it fine enough I think 😁.
My setup is a front stage including a sub from System Audio, a Danish speaker brand. And my rear and rear heights are Gale. It does the job, and make movies great, and that is the most important thing. All in all be happy with what you have.
I have a 7.2 layout and Atmos sounded bad Till I got towers for the back speakers and svs ultra surrounds for the sides. Upgrading the surround speakers to big quality speakers helped allot. I noticed wit Atmos every speaker is as important as your fronts. Sounds amazing now!!
Yes I just discovered this scenario. I recently upgraded my fronts and moved elac bookshelves to the rear or sides. I'm running a 5.1.4 and I can't put into words what it sounds like!. I was using outdated low grade speakers. I wonder if I replace my 4 height channels if I will get this much change in quality? They are small and lightweight. Always learning!
Be aware: if you watch the activity through f.ex. Trinnovs spatializer graphics, a lot of discs with Atmos actually have objects more or less locked to the channel locations...esp. Disney f.ex. are horrible with this. So, there is a lot of difference from the thinking that went into the Atmos spec and the end implemation of it in equipment and studio mixes. Together with some studios are also locking the mix to 7.1.4. My 2 cents: I would rather have 7.1 instead of .2 overhead whisper tracks...the amount of activity on the ceiling are very miniscule in most movies. The ones with decent Atmos usage are rare.
I agree with the 7.x over 5.x.2 and I’d rather wait to be able to make 7.x.4 possible as I’d rather full ass one thing than half ass 2 things. I want a full 360 degree immersive base layer; I want Atmos to improve on that by adding a “dome” on top of that base layer.
Properly setup, a 5.x/7.x simulates a partial done of sound, Atmos/Auro heights should finish building that dome and not be the only things making that dome of sound if that makes sense.
You should try recalibrating your system, I don't have that problem
It is a shame that there are many Atmos mixes that are like this. But I do think that we are getting more 'good' to 'excellent' Atmos mixes on a more consistent basis. At least with new releases. Now catalog titles, well there is still a long ways to go. My opinion of course.
I have a 7.2.4 system with four physical ceiling speakers (speakers are 30 degrees pre-angled and recessed into the ceiling drywall). When I set up my system a year ago I also noticed very little activity in the heights, however I've noticed recent movies making better use of heights (Dune in particular), and now even my Tidal music subscription gives me atmos mixes. Over the past couple months I have noticed that music mixes are using more height placement too. I plan to buy a 2nd set of in-wall and ceiling speakers for the family room the next time I run across an online sale. I heard that Dolby is trying hard to get Disney to stop treating atmos like a channels and actually use real objects. Some people with 9 bed channels (front wide speakers) notice movement from front to back skip front-wides because the sound was mixed as a channel instead of a moving object.
I have seen consistently poor comments and data on Disney releases. From compressed dynamic range in their sound mix, reduced overall volume as well as washed out colours on what should be an HDR presentation. I can’t remember the term but an article I read talked about some sludge filter being applied to the video because we don’t want it too colourful or something. I tried to watch black panther 4K but the sound issues were so disappointing for me I turned it off. I’d watched blade runner 2049 only a few days prior and that’s an absolute audio and visual treat on a decent system.
Shame on Disney. Improve your game.
I am always playing with the Atmos settings on my avr as my 2 height speakers are on my sidewall, about 6 feet up, and pointing down at my listening position.
There are 2 settings on my avr that are close to what I have. Front height and mid height.
Going by the graphics on my avr's settings, the mid height looks more like my setup.
I dont really hear any difference between the 2 but I'm a knit picker and am always in the settings changing and tweaking things.
I think when I upgrade to a 5.1.4 it will be easier to setup but that won't be for a while as a good 9 channel receiver is not in my price range right now.
Also my avr is a 2017 model (1st gen atmos) and I believe newer avrs have more dynamic atmos.
Your videos are awesome and I always learn something, looking forward to your next video
Hi Chana..
I do have the same setup like you. I too feel that some sounds are not played exactly they are supposed to do.. Thanks for the video.. You are my man you got the exact video which no one is thinking about..
Thank you for watching!
Many thanks for this video, it's completely changed my thought process in regards to my room setup. I've been going back and forth between the Sony HT-A9 for simplicity or proper discreet setup using an entry level kit like the Klipsch 5.1.4 kit with an AVR, but i'm in the same situation where my sofa is up against the wall, so i'm not really going to get the benefit of either system and might as well just get a soundbar to improve the general tv audio quality
Well...it is a bit of a strange situation. I don't think it will be bad per se, it's just not going to be optimal with the couch up against the wall. The AVR/Speakers route will sound the best, but if you don't want to bother, then the Sony HT-A9 will provide a good overall experience, but you will need the subwoofer, which then brings you into the AVR/Speakers setup.
Great content as usual!
As many others have commented, 7.1 content will down mix to 5.1 with NO loss of content.
This incidentally is why 5.1 surround speaker placement is about 110deg i.e roughly split the difference between sides and backs in a 7.1 setup. If you are experiencing channel loss, you perhaps have in the speaker setup of your AVR, forgotten to set ‘off’ or whatever your AVR terminology is for having no speakers in the surround back position.
This is what I thought also. No content loss . I have 7.2.4 Atmos , but many receivers are 5.2.4 , I am wondering how well they simulate the surround back channels. I will try my Yamaha RX -3070 , set it up on 5.2.4 and give it a try . I will also try a 7.2 , since Yamaha claims they can simulate height without the Atmos speakers (they call them presence speakers if are not placed in the ceiling-front height and rear height ) I am skeptical
HD Audio with CINEMA DSP 3D and Virtual Presence Speaker
CINEMA DSP 3D provides a wide, high and dense sound field. HD Audio format decoding lets you enjoy HD Audio sources. Virtual Presence Speaker delivers 3-dimensional sound without actual use of presence speakers.
Great video - great question posed too - tbh Iv been focused on the speakers in front of me, two subs and the speakers in my ceiling to try and get the best sound possible for my room because my room limits where my back surrounds go - I can’t really do anything else but upon posing the question the rear sound is most likely the weak point in many systems if it’s a case like mine with my room wall boundaries etc etc
Thank you for this video. I appreciate the content. I have a newly setup media area. Though my sitting space isn't flush against the back wall, I face a similar limitation because I have no full rear wall to place 'back surrounds" (7.1.4). With that being said I am running a 5.1.4. My concern is should I be rethinking using object based sound and maybe switch to channel based sound as you said. I wonder if I could use my rear heights as rear surrounds instead, would my ear level soundstage be fuller? When listening to most atmos mixes, like the bird flapping winged demo, the transition from left, to behind, to right sounds decent. But I'm interested in feedback to know if I can improve it.
Greetings! I know this is an old video, but it just popped up in my feed. Not sure of your exact speaker placement restrictions, but would it be possible to aim those side surrounds at your back wall so the sound actually does come from behind the listening position, reflecting off the rear wall? If you have a sheetrock or smooth plaster rear wall behind the couch, reflecting sound off the rear wall should work pretty well. For pretty much all surround formats, if you have five ear level surround speakers, the surround speaker should be placed behind the listening position. If you listen to 7.1 channel native content (Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio), the rear and side surrounds are folded into the surround channels with the assumption that the speakers are behind the listening position. If you don't have a wall directly behind your couch (like if it's an open concept floor plan with another living space behind the couch), then another option might be putting the rear speakers on the ceiling on brackets (behind the couch) pointed directly at the listening position, but I don't know how comfortable you are with snaking more cables. As long as they're lower than your height channels and are pointed directly at the main listening position, this can also work pretty well.
Your idea of switching from an actual immersive soundtrack to a non-immersive track like DTS HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and using Auro for upmixing might seem like a good idea. And it may actually sound fine on some content. But you won't be getting the actual sounds that have been mixed for the height channels in the height speakers in Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS:X, IMAX Enhanced or 360 Reality Audio. All of the object based surround formats (DTS:X, Dolby Atmos, 360 Reality Audio, MPEG-H, IMAX) store sounds as objects with meta data used to define the sound's 3D position and motion through space. At playback time, the receiver or processor maps these sound objects into the specific channel configuration of your speakers so it can place all of these 3D sound objects in the appropriate locations in the room. This is how a Dolby Atmos or DTS:X mix can sound pretty good in 5.1.2, while sounding even better in 7.1.4. The extra speaker channels give the receiver more placement specificity - more precision in the 3D mapping of the sounds.
If you opt to use a non-immersive format like Dolby TrueHD instead, the receiver has no positioning meta data, so it has no idea that a helicopter (for example) was supposed to take off from the front, and fly overhead disappearing in the rear. Or that rain is supposed to actually fall from above the listening position. Or that the harmony/chorus vocals in Bohemian Rhapsody are supposed to come from the top right and left corners of the room. All of that height positioning information is lost. You can take that 2 dimensional non-immersive surround sound track and "upmix it" in DTS Neural:X, Dolby Surround or the Auro upmixer, in order to create sound from above, but this isn't actually restoring the height information. The processor is *guessing* which sounds should be placed into the height channels. It's a little like taking a CD, ripping it to 128K MP3, and then "restoring" it to a 44.1KHz/16 bit FLAC file. Technically, you have a 44.1K/16 bit digital file as the end product, but the information that was lost in compression is lost, and can't be recovered. When you opt to use a channel-based 2D surround sound format like Dolby TrueHD instead of a Dolby Atmos mix of the same content, you've lost the actual 3D positioning of sounds and that isn't something that can be recovered or accurately simulated.
Hope this makes sense and I hope you've found a speaker configuration that works for you. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks if you like how your system sounds to you.
Im so glad you are talking about this.
I am getting confused, maybe you can help clarify.
I have a 7.2.4 with a 12x25 room, my couch is against the back wall so I pulled it out a few feet to put rear surrounds behind the couch on stands so they clear the couch, then I put my side surrounds along the sides of the couch, then I mounted rear height speakers on the wall where it meets the ceiling for rear height speakers and in the front I have R625af towers with up-firing drivers in them for the front atmos speakers as I cant mount front heights right now in this room.
So having the X3700h I dont have auro 3d.
But I do have Neural X.
If I am understanding you right, up-mixing certain content will use my speakers more appropriately than a standard mix in some cases.
Where it is 5.1 mix for example on hulu live tv or other or DD+ for example, often it seems like my rear speakers aren't doing anything, my fronts, center and sides seem to do most of the work, unless I play a disc or a game that was mastered in 7.1.
Do I have that right?
What if anything can I do to use my rear surrounds more when watching bitstream/pcm/ 5.1 or DD+ content on live tv apps and other streaming services that offer those formats other than dts:x or Atmos so that I get audio in all my speakers?
And why is it with some things I cannot access Neural x but with others I can.
For example, when I use an app built into my tv WebOs, (I have the 77" CX) I do not get the option on my Denon for Neural X, but when I stream, through my xbx or firestick, I do get the option of using Neural x.
Thank you for any help understanding this a little better.
This is a very interesting video tutorial.. I'll have to test this TrueHD upmixed to Auro3D and verify your findings good sir. Thanks for the assignment! 😊
Let me know how it goes, Mark!
Love ya T. D!! Mahalo for learning and helping us get though all this!! You are the BEST!!
Thank you for watching, Charles!
@@TechnoDad ALWAYS!!!
I'm just now beginning my Atmos upgrade. I've been enjoying Dolby Digital & DTS since 2001. I'm a budget guy but have always been able to get good sound. The first thing I have noticed about the new surround sound is: I seem to enjoy the older stuff better & I don't like the up-mix. I prefer to turn on Pure Direct. It seems like we have added more speakers while, at the same time, tamped down all surround effects. I just can't seem to find great surround mixes anymore. The Flaming Lips put out 3 albums in 5.1 & Talking Heads released all 8 of their albums in 5.1 (these were all released during the gen 1). I still haven't heard anything since then that even comes close to what was achieved on these mixes. Especially The Flaming Lips albums. The worst part is, you just can't get these albums anymore. I'm lucky to own them. I think the next upgrade needs to be something in the way of programming our own surround mixes. If I could separate the tracks & place them where I want, I think I could make everything sound that good. We should just eliminate the need for surround mix engineering by creating a processor that can allow for this kind of customization. As it stands, surround sound isn't getting better, it's getting more watered down. Just like everything else.
This was helpful for drawing attention to problem I have with back against wall, but was hopeful for simpler solution for us on a budget without pricey AVR and 5 ceiling speakers.
Not sure how I didn't see this channel before, great video !
Hey, thanks!
Star Trek 'Into The Darkness' intro,
is the only 4K-UHD ATMOS Disc that I use to calibrate all of the Dolby Atmos home theater systems that I install as it has the Best Mix of Treble, Surround, Height, and Bass sounds.
I have the 7.2.2 setup and yes my surrounds are on the sides but I put my chair about a foot from the back wall. Cant put a speaker back there but it makes back surrounds a little more recessed. Im running a yamaha 2080 and when I run the test tones it puts the sound in speakers with no surround and back surround blend.Content sounds great.
I have a really similar set up to you, currently 5.1 but I’m going to add two higher Channels when I can. My opinion is my set up sounds AMAZING I’m sure others sound better than mine but when I sit down and watch a movie I just enjoy it! As for sounds coming from “the wrong place” I’d far rather hear those sound effects in the wrong place than not hear them at all
I smell what you’re cooking Channa… I have learned so much from watching the past two videos that you did on this subject and reading these comment sections. This is awesome, LOVE your work my friend… BOOM!!
I have a system 5.1.2 atmos and I have hooked up my rear speakers to the terminals labeled on avr "Surround" L and R on the back of it . and tow speaker on high roof for atmos ,
2 speaker front
1 center
2 speaker surround rear my seat
2 speaker top middle high
My question is that there are also terminals on avr for a "Surround Back" L and R as well. Do I have my speakers hooked up to the right terminals (or should I hook them up to the "Surround Back" terminals)? Which is better to deliver on the receiver surround or surround back / if you have tow speaker only for surrounded
Techno dad I’m in the same viewing situation as you. My couch is up against the back wall due to room size and functionality constraints. After watching this though I’ve been pondering a way to incorporate a rear surround channel(s). I could at most move my seating row off the wall by 6”. What your opinion on placing a couple smaller speakers mounted on my rear wall just above headrests angled down slightly? Is this still too close? What are my options
Thanks
You spoiled my plans for 7.4.4 Channa, now I’ll have to “settle” on 5.4.4 :) Thanks for the great info!
LOL, sorry!
According to your thorough explanation regarding the object based, personally, I have got the same room setup where I had to sit against the rear wall, I have got 5.1.2. setup. I remember somewhere Audioholics explained with the guy that mixed the ELP albums, CMIIW, that since the era of Front Height Channel, the object mixes would be put utilizing some coordinate between the centre and main front : then I put my height Channel at the front wall, facing to MLP, somewhere between Centre and Main Speakers, slightly above the screen. For the surround, I’d put it closer to the side walls (compared to the positions of the front mains) angled them to the centre of the room, somewhere above or below the position of the front height speakers (according how the ceiling can accommodate them), then put one or two 3D Diffuser panels at the rear, somewhere higher than the ear level and between the surround positions, plus one or two 2D Diffuser panels on each sidewalls between the main and surround channel of that sides, right after some absorption panel at the first reflecting zone of the main channel that affect the MLP on that wall. Cheers
dude ive learned so much from your videos so i wanted to thank you. this one specifically though has helped me the most i think. im upgrading and going back to a receiver based set up from a soundbar. soundbars just do not provide a real theater experience. that being said my setup already has ceiling speakers installed that i want to utilize and obviously i want an atmos set up to get the most out of them. im looking at a min. 5.1.4 setup.... in the future - maybe just a 5.1.2 setup immediately. but YES your information is really alarming. that information makes it seem like the return on a minimal atmos set up is NOT worth the effort at all which sucks. honestly i feel that all releases need a better atmos mix that should be based on a minimal atmos set up of 7 speakers otherwise youre not really playing the game. anyway - thanks again for your work and reporting. id rate the video a 10/10 but im giving you a bonus point for the epic shirt. 11/10.
Thank you so much! I know it’s not ideal, but it still is a cool experience. There’s no way I can run a 7.1.4 Atmos setup in my living room so I will roll with a 5.1.4. This video isn’t intended to dissuade anyone from getting an Atmos setup, but rather let everyone know what they are getting so they can then manage expectations.
I have a 7.1.4 with my listening position against a wall, I just mounted the rears against the wall and the sides more centred along the side, its not ideal but I like the sound I get from the Atmos mix
Are you going to buy me a new house so I can add more speakers? Oh no you are not. Okay maybe can we just stop all the stupid comments about how I don't have a proper room set up. Oh yeah don't forget to subscribe. 😅🤣😭. Love you Channa. Even more after this video.
Always good videos bro
Thanks man!
Hey Channah, I'm running a 5.2.4 system as well and this is what I did for my rears and I think it's worked out very well. I use bi-pole speakers placed in the corners of the room I sit slightly ahead of them at 110 degree angle and the wash sound down the front and side walls, the sound from the rears sounds like it's coming from 4 speakers, (technically correct) but you know what I mean.
Nice man! I love bi-poles. They work out so well as surround speakers.
William, I am also in a 5.2.4 setup, with my surrounds at 110 degrees. The surrounds face my main listening position. What do you mean by "and the wash sound down the front and side walls, the sound from the rears sounds like it's coming from 4 speakers"? Are you saying I should point my surrounds differently?
Hi, thanks for the video. I need some help. I also have a 5.1.4 speakerset ( with the 4 ceilingspeakers) and my couch is also against the wall. Could you show me how did you set up ( small drawing) your room with the positioning of the speakers.
I have the same problem with my surroundspeakers standing next to the couch on earhights. Problem is my positioning of the 4 heightspeakers. Thanks
Hi, Just found this video. I have a 12 x 12 ft. room with a window on one side(2nd floor). I really didn't want to hear back sound from the side as well. My solution? I bot a long live edge table, moved the couch forward and put them behind. It also helps the angle for the height speakers. (SVS primes). Your video helped me decide on these.
Next problem. Fitting a 100 inch screen on wall the same size wall. Need room for the height speakers on the top of the wall, towers on the side and a low bureau for the UST projector. That's for next year.
Thanks for your videos, keep them coming!!
Dave
Interesting topic. I have a maranta 6014 but running only a 5.1 setup. My room has limitations to have back surrounds as my couch is butt up the wall and I can’t place atmos speakers on the ceiling although Can have heights on the wall. I am looking to have at least a 5.1.2 setup so can get a basic atmos system setup, does it makes sense to have two atmos heights in front , will it make my setup better or it’s jus not going to cut it? What’s your suggestion and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks
Coming from someone who is just looking to buy something to get me started, can I say this is one of the most easiest videos I've seen in about 6 months of looking on RUclips. I'M exactly in the same position as you. I can't put anything behind me. Our seating is right up against the wall. You need to make more videos on this very topic and advising what works best. Let's be honest here not many people have the ideal situation as a cinema layout. We have to compromise that is why in 6 months of watching so many different reviews opinions ect I still haven't bought a Dolby Atmos system. My budget is not very large maybe €1.500 and the Euro is about the same as the USD so I'm going to buy something that's value for money. I bet 95 percent if not 99 percent of people who are installing home sound systems are making very big mistakes. It's not until you listen to a friend's system you then realize man I'd love something like his are hers. Great information thank you man
So I just saw this video for the first time and I have to say, there is another thing that happens in channel based set ups to simulate sound from a certain space in your area, and it’s to emit a certain amount of sound out of two speakers in space to try and make it sound like it’s coming from in between them, this can happen a lot with only having 5.1 and the sounds you need from behind, I used to have only 5.1 and even with them places not behind me but beside me, the processor would use the amount of sound pumped from them at the same time to simulate sound from behind, of course it’s not AS accurate as having the surround back speakers but I have had it seem like it was behind me through that technique
@technodad!! Can you run a set of smaller in or on-wall speakers directly behind the couch? That is honestly the best way to get those “point sources“ of sound back into your room. Since it’s so close to your listening position, you also don’t need the typical huge diameter drivers (just set a crossover to 150 Hz or so for those rear channels). Also in a pinch, if there is a triangle of space behind your couch, or you have the ability to move your couch six or so inches off of the wall, you can either put the speakers built into a small “console“ table top right behind the couch, or just lay them on the floor (it sounds like a terrible idea, but in reality, when only let’s say 1 to 5% of the movies sounds are coming from those surround back speakers, there’s more value in getting the sound “out“ of the system compared to it being perfectly at ear level and/or direct line of sight to your ears. Try these last two ideas with a cheap set of throwaway speakers you may have around the house and see how you like it!! (You can use anything like and old set of Bose cube speakers, gallo acoustics micro, or elipson 4” models)
Very interested to hear how this works out if you try it!!
Cheers
-J
I have an open ended cube of about 10 feet or so. If it's not against a wall, it doesn't fit.
I went with OHMs up front since they are compatiable with wall settings. I used Mirage Nanostats since they are both tiny and omni-directional for the assorted available placements. Placement is everything when you are in a box.
I admire those who can take a speaker and place it correctly. Far away from walls and in an 'infinite' spatial zone.
Hello Techno Dad, that was an amazing video. I learn a lot, thank you for that.
I have a 5.2 home theater Klipsch + Denon X3700h and speakers positions are exactly like yours - the couch is butt up against the wall, and my surround speakers are flanking me. There is no other way.
But I intend to get 2 ceiling speakers for atmos. And there will be 5.2.2
I just learn from you that sounds that come from surround back speakers now I will hear from my surround speakers.
And also the sound from 4 atmos speakers (by default) now I will hear from 2. But I want so bad to have atmos so I can live with that. As I said there is no other war, I can't change the room or my flat ...
Great topic I’m finding out the struggles now with a open loft and speakers on my neck . Yep everyone on the tube is a home theater savant who don’t have a channel or do this for a living . Let the idiots talk that’s how they get through the day and face life . The info you put out for free is invaluable for us who can’t afford sound engineers and home theater designers . Thanks Channa.
This is a great video I'm using the denon 760h I have 5 speakers 2 subwoff and 2 atmos speakers you just solved a problem for me....
I’ve got a Marantz receiver in an L shaped room open to the dining room. The system allows for 7.2.2 Dolby Atmos, but I can’t put speakers in the ceiling. The sitting area is approximately in the room center. In the rear of the room the speakers all up high above cabinets. 2 subs left and right on the floor. The others at head height.
Should I be moving or replacing speakers? Changing the sound settings?
Great follow up video, just a thought Would adding two speakers up above the Side surrounds angling down towards the main listening position assigned as the rear surrounds maybe make up for that effect? Even maybe have them angled downward slightly toed in towards the wall to reflect to the back of your head? And then the two Atmos speakers above in front of the main listening position assigned as atmos or height give you the correct sound? Just a thought!
Sounds like a decent plan as long as you have enough space for those channels to position as far back as possible. I'm not a big fan of reflected audio. I always seem to just hear the speaker where it actually is more then any kind of reflection. We all have to work with what we have though
I'm setting up a new HT setup and I'm deciding between aura 3D and Dolby Atmos setup. Which would you recommend and why? And is today's AVR upmixing to Aura 3D convincing? Thanks
Thank for addressing this issue, i am struggling to get my back channels behind me, i have room for them above ear heights, any suggestion on this issue, since they are not to the side but instead up, im thinking the will project sound to front wall and then reflect so they are to be considered delayed fronts, which must be terrible. Will try auro 3d when i get new reciever
Thanks! Have 5.1.2 with Yamaha AVR that has virtual surround back mode. Does that help with producing surround back content?
i would just pull the sofa foward into the room when im going to watch a film,, and put it back after it finished,, job done lol
Cool stuff, definitely learned a lot. I’m on the Atmos 5.1.2 and recognize the issue with my couch against the wall… only comments I get: to bad, maybe you should change your livingroom… So now I will ivestigate the Auro 3D upmixing route… starts with a receiver like a X4700 and extra heightspeakers?
So, interesting Video and wanted to chip in as well. I've not been into home theater since '94, but have been in it since 98'. So started with Dolby pro logic ( VHS tapes) then we got DD 5.1 which was discreet channel based 5.1, so whether you had your rears to the back or to the sides ( I had them to the sides then as I had no space behind me; it was a bedroom) sound would play through them obviously regardless of placement of the surrounds. Then we got DD EX & DTS ES. those formats introduced 6.1 however the signal for the sixth speaker ( which was supposed to be a rear center speaker so placed dead center behind you ) was matrixed into the 5.1 mix, so a capable EX/ES decoder would send the matrixed information to that sixth speaker where applicable. Then the 7.1 Receivers became a thing, but they were still decoding 5.1 with or without matrix for the sixth channel, however like with Dolby Pro logic, the 2 back rears would be mono, not stereo. Since it is harder to hear sounds straight behind you but easier if they are a bit to the sides behind you, this was considered to be an upgrade. I had one of those 7.1 SR9600 Marantz receivers which was a monster in its heydays. The 2 Monaural channels behind you would not be used if there was no info matrixed in for Dolby Digital EX. However for DTS you had DTS ES Matrix but also DTS ES Discrete !. So DTS ES discrete 6.1 was by far the best sounding format due to the highest bit rate.
Enter Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master audio, now most AV receivers had still 7.1 and now we also had 7.1 discrete channels for both Dolby & DTS if you had an AVR that could decode both formats. Now with Atmos and DTS-X you have more channels than people can decode at home and they are object based. so if a specific sound is supposed to be heard in a specific spot your Atmos/DTS-X avr should be using all the available speakers to help place that sound in that Spot, while trying to keep things natural, so no rear sounds blasting from your fronts. Obviously having speakers set up in the ideal pattern will make it easier for your AVR to put those sounds in that spot, but if you've used some room correction system to calibrate your room, your "rears" should be working in whichever way they can to place those sounds in your room. So if you have them more to the side you will obviously hear sounds coming more from the side, but I do not think information meant for your rears will be lost just because you are running 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 and have your rears to the sides.
There are still 5.1 systems sold which use Di- or Bi-pole solutions and those are actually meant to be placed to your sides, using room reflection to create a more spacious experience, however they would be far less suited for discrete channels/Object based formats.
In closing, I see no reason why you would need to use an Auro3d upmixer to get sounds meant for your rears ( not back rears) to play to your rears if they are on your side. Sounds should be coming from your side placed rears regardless. As Atmos & DTS X scale to accommodate your speaker layout by default. Now if that sounds natural to you or if it is in fashion with the artistic intent is another thing altogether. But the way it was explained in the video made it seem that if you have your rears to your sides, you would lose info meant for your rears and they would not play at all.
@technodad one question I have which I can’t find anything online to help with answering. For my surround speakers front side and rear I have different speakers some with only 2 way and some with 3 way. Which would benefit more the front surrounds, surround rear or surround back.. which will benefit from the 3 way and which is better for the 2 way ?
Great video Techno Dad as always!
Thank you!!!
Thank you, David.
I also have 5.1.2 System with a Marantz receiver that doesn't support auro-3d , the two atmos speakera are located on top of my Front L/R . Is there a way to improve the sound effects of atmos without drilling holes in the ceileing or upmix it somehow ?
Well I'm using the Sony str dn 1080 with my rear speakers to the sides but I'm also using the phantom back channels and it works a treat. It is set up in a 7.1.2 config and you really can hear things directly behind you. I tried it with startrek into darkness when the enterprise comes out of the water it sounds like it's right behind you then lifts out and flies up into the height channels then the front. Great processing from the amp
The Star Trek 'Into The Darkness' 4K-UHD intro, is the only ATMOS Disc that I use to calibrate all of the home theater systems that I install as it has the Best Mix of Treble, Surround, Height, and Bass sounds.
I bought two speakers of brand DynaVoice, the Magic FX4,:to extend my system to a 7.1 system, even when I have a wall behind my sofa. Those speakers are angled. So what I did is put a shelve of 20cm wide behind the sofa and put the speakers on that firing towards THE WALL. Yes, I use the wall the add dispersion to that sound so you can locate them less. The trick is to choose the right height of the shelve (basic geometry) and voila, you have a 7.1 system. Now, a tricky part is the DSP of your avr. Old DSPs are slow, so they can't handle well speakers with a very short distance (remember distance is just a relative delay between the speakers). More modern avrs can handle 30cm or more, but old avr may have a minimum distance of 100cm. In the later case you need to add manually a delay to each speaker (a delta) to again a correct relative distance. Just be careful with subs if they are directly connected to your front speakers (not via sub out) than this doesn't work. Via sub out it is no problem.
Awesome videos! I was always under the impression that if you don't have enough speakers on what the channel-based mix entails, then the AVR or processor would just downmix to your current speaker configuration. For example, if I'm watching a 7.1 True-HD Mix, and I only have a 3.1 system, then I was under the assumption that the Denon/Marantz AVR would just take the surround and back channel information and downmix them it to the 3.1 system. Therefore, I wouldn't be losing any audio information, I just wouldn't be hearing it from the correct locations they were intended to be heard from. Am I correct here or do I actually lose the sound information completely?
I think you are correct about your AVR downmixing. Maybe cheaper units don't downmix so they just omit the channels you don't have? In my case, part of the speaker calibration setup is to tell the unit which speakers I have. If I tell it I don't have a center speaker, it does NOT just delete that channel and you don't hear it; it mixes that audio into the other channels.
You are correct, Juan, you will not lose any of the sound information at all. Your AVR will downmix the sound to whatever you have. Naturally, if you don't have rear surrounds you will not hear sounds coming from behind you as convincingly as if you did have rear surrounds, but you will be able to hear those sounds from your side surrounds, and your side surrounds will image the rear sounds the best they can to give you the impression the sound is coming from behind you.
@@frankvee Frank, do the lower-end, "bottom of the line" units also downmix like this?
I have the 5.1.2 setup. Wiht a denon 3700. What happens when i listen to dolby hd/ dts master 7.1, using the options dolby atmos/D sur or dts neural x? Do i get the lost sounds of the speakers behind me that i dont have?
I have a question I have a Yamaha A6 and a 5.2.4 height speakers …and on the AV receiver info screen it’s showing Dolby atmos/PCM os that what it should say? Or should I look for another setting? Thanks for any info you can provide. I’m using a Roku 4K that is comparable with Dolby Atmos
I'm confused...but aren't you now going have the behind sounds now coming from above at ceiling level? Or because it's speaker based that doesn't happen. I don't have this problem but would like to understand to help others that might. What setting are you changing on the AVR?
I also have my 5.1.4 setup in living room without the sofa against the walls. My living room is not a single room so it branches out to the dinning room, kitchen and living entry room. My side surrounds are behind my sofa angled at me in center. The sound setup seems to be correct hopefully. I don't think we all need to take speaker setups seriously because sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to make it work in limited room in homes. Most average joes will not spend more than 5k-10k on home theater setup in their living room. I think you already have a great setup and thanks for letting us know how to make it sound better. For 7.1.4 setup I do want rear surrounds but that is 2ft behind my head so is that bad?
PRO TIP: For 5.1.2 systems... ...4K-UHD discs that do not have DOLBY ATMOS/DTS:X but instead have DTS:HD:MA... ...set your AVR to DTS:Neural:X and your Height Speakers will really come to life. Just got done watching the movie the 'TENET' and was blown away!
I have not watched last weeks video. I'm still using RX-583 Yamaha ran 7.2 for 1st year or so, went to 5.2.2 and really enjoy it. My surround backs still in place. Looking to get 9.2 AVR for 7.2.2 setup before adding power amp and front hights in the future.
Why not 5.2.4 ?
Love your point about being into home theaters since 1994 and having your HT in the living room. I began with my first 5.1 setup in 1997 and never stopped. HT has come long ways and it keeps getting better, more sophisticated, and also more complex. I also have mine in a family room, even though we had a large room that even our builder was asking why we don’t make a home theater there, when we custom built the house 14 years ago. I just wanted my main room for watching TV and movies to also be the HT. Over the years thereafter, I noticed so many people with nice dedicated HT rooms almost never using it and mostly watching stuff in their not so ideal family room or living room TV with no surround.
and then you've got the problem where parents get mad at their kids for ruining the good leather or whatever seating they have too.
Yah, agreed. It makes sense to put it where it will be used.
I'm disappointed my living room isn't optimized for surround sound, but I'm about to make it work as well as I can.
That's what happens when you buy a house built in 1935.
I also had this problem with my surround rear speakers at my old home where the rear speakers had to be placed on each side of the couch for my wife would not allow me to hang them on the wall so what I did was face each speaker towards the wall so that the audio would bounce of the wall and adjusted the surround settings until it sound good enough. It wasn't perfect but it did work better than hearing the rears on the side of your ear.
When I get space and money for a home theatre setup, I have a multi-phase plan to start with a 2.2 setup and gradually build up to a 17.4 setup:
- Phase One: LG 77” OLED TV, Marantz AV 10/AMP 10, two Polk Legend L800 fronts and two Bowers & Wilkins DB1D subwoofers
- Phase Two: Polk Legend L400 centre, two Polk Legend L200 surrounds, and two more Bowers & Wilkins DB1D subwoofers
- Phase Three: two Polk Legend L200 surround rears and two Polk Reserve R900 front heights
- Phase Four: two Polk Legend L200 front wides, and two Polk Reserve R900 rear heights
- Phase Five: one Polk Reserve R900 centre height and three Polk 900-LS top middles/top surround
In between them, I would also collect the various playback devices and media I want, both modern and vintage.
So much great information! ...Now I have to go and think... ...Thanks!
Thank you for watching!
Another great video. Wanted to support with a comment
Thank you so much, Byron!
I used to test my system using games like Skyrim and I would move my character around to see how the sound was playing - may not be consistent for all input sources but it helped me see how things sound behind me with a 5.2.4 setup
the new halo is great for this. its mixed very well
I been in the home theater hobby since 2000 with my first Sony receiver and yes, we are always learning.I been 2 years with a Denon receiver and I recently discover that changing from "Front Height" to " Top Middle" I can now listen to the info from " front Height" and " rear Height" downmix to the speakers.Another thing, can you test The heights channels in your new Pioneer receiver with any of the dsp modes like Action etc?
Does the same apply for non-Atmos set ups? Listening to an Atmos track down mixed to my 5.2.0. Sounds better than the 7.1 down mix.
I have the same setup as you with not being able to have the surrounds really behind me. And when I made the setup I really tried to get the speakers behind me but in the end it was impossible. But sure I have experienced the limitation in some movies but as a compromise I think it works pretty well anyway.
Yeah, it’s a tough thing to work with the room.
Howdy again. My livingroom isn't very big. I have the 512 dolby atmos setup via a Denon. My sound is a great upgrade from my previous system. I want to make it a 514, but I'd need to upgrade my avr. You made me think of the 514 set up from your last week video. Lol. But I just got my 512 set up dialed in. My back speakers are left and right of my main viewing area not behind. I don't have problems with this. When I play my Xbox 1x, those back speakers are behind me. When I play COD BOP4, hearing the sound from behind me as I get wiped out is great. I will eventually go to a 514 system. But until then, my 512 set up sounds pretty good. 1994? I got out of the Navy in April 1994. Seems forever ago. I'm a new sub now. Look forward to your next video. Peace ✌ out.
If your going to go 5.1.4 make it worth the upgrade and get a receiver with Auro 3D and configure your height speakers in Auro 3D configuration. It’s actually easier that the Top configuration of Atmos.
Otherwise spending money to get the 4 heights without adding Auro 3D probably isn’t worth it. Another worthwhile and impactful upgrade is a receiver with Dirac calibration. I was really impressed with how Dirac gave my speakers extra clarity and cohesiveness. Surround movies sound better after calibration for sure.
Denon 4700h has 9.1 channels or support for 5.2.4. It has Auro 3D and in March 2023 you can purchase Dirac Live firmware update. It’s hard to find a receiver that has both Dirac and Auro 3D without spending a fortune.
I have a question regarding atmos speaker placement. Does it matter if you choose front heights vs top heights? The reason I ask is because on my RZ50 I have height 2 speakers at top middle but for height 1 it won’t allow me to select top front aka ceiling speaker it only allows for front high. Does it really matter I have set up for front high even though they are actually top front ceiling speakers?
Would you cover using headphones for Dolby Atmos? I find many for gaming but little mention of the best headphones for listening to movies and music. I have tried high-end Bose and Sony and hear the Atmos effect but wondering if I am missing the best true atmos effect.
If you do not have rear surrounds you do not lose that audio on a 5.x.x system. It is folded into the side surrounds when decoded.
Yes! 100%! That’s what I said in my last video. The issue arises when the AVR thinks my surround speakers are behind me when they are actually in the sides.
@@TechnoDad the only solution I can think of in this space is to move the side surrounds forward some, and keep the rear surrounds in their current location. Either that or remove the surround back speakers from the equation.
@@TechnoDad but Channa, since you have no speakers behind you, where do you expect those sounds to go? If we can agree that nothing is lost in the process of converting 7 channels to 5 (which incidentally, you claim is NOT a the case in this video), rather those sounds are redirected to the most appropriate available speaker, then you have to expect “rear” sounds to come from the speakers furthest to the rear in your setup. This is why Dolby’s guidelines for 5.1 indicate placing the surrounds slightly behind the listening position, whereas their 7.1 guidelines allow for 90 degree side surrounds. The only solution I can see for this issue would be to use some sort of bi-pole/di-pole speakers that are intentionally designed to create a more diffuse, less directional sound.
@@1FastGXP he doesn’t have “rear” surrounds, his system is 5.1.X, not 7.1.X.
@@BeefyMon
Yes - you corect, the best solution for that case, to get bipole speakers, place it in between surr/back corner around a feet above your head and it’s best solution for 5.2.4
I have 5.1.4 running an arcam av40 , sitting about max. 0,5 meters away from the back wall my surround speakers are nearly at the corner , i thought when i setup to 5.x
X automaticly all sounds from back coming out on These two i have, so from 7.x.x all 4 surround channels are going to my two on my 5.x.x config. Im that wrong?
I am running a pioneer lsx vx504. I am set up for 5.1.4. For the life of me Im only getting 5.1.2. The amp in a sound set up fires all 5.1.4, but when I stream media, no dice. The amp states it is giving out 5.1.4 and atmos comes up on display. But my front ceiling speakers are off on the display and no sound comes out of them. I am using plex on a firestick 4k max. Any help?
Hey loved the video, what demo disk did you get?
Check eBay for Dolby Atmos Demo Disc.
Thanks Channa for the videos. I have a very close set up to yours running a 5.2.4 set up and running my surround speakers on each side of my listening position. Previously had a 7.2.2 set up which now I’m regretting that I changed the configuration. What do you think of using the Dolby Surround or Neural X since you mentioned using Auro 3D ?
I am debating going back to a 7.2.2 set up and converting the rear height speakers back to surround back.
I would give it a try and see what you like and what sounds good to you.
@@TechnoDad I have tried both and I find pro’s and con’s about using the upmixer or staying with the format on the source. Being a purist….my mind always says I should be sticking to the original source coding.
Hi guys..I have a 5.2.2 with my height speakers right behind my coach pointing down obviously. I have my little satellites speakers turned sideways. Horizontal. I tried them both ways.(many times). And in my opinion they sound better that way. Plus I turned the height ones up a db or two and it makes a big difference to me. Just something to throw around s. Peace!
Thank you for the follow up video. Where did you get that Atmos demo disc?
I got one from eBay.
Looking to pair the klipsch reference cinema system 5.1.4 dolby atmos with the Denon AVR-S760H 7.2-Channel Home Theater AV Receiver 8K Video Ultra HD 4K/120 that supports Dolby atmos will I be good to go with Dolby Atmos with the speakers ?
Does the distance between the Atmos overhead speakers can be 4.5ft or needs to be more? I really don't have too much space if I follow this recomendations. Please let me know. Thanks.
Whenever I want to hear sound coming from all speakers. My current set up is 7.2.4n I just set my X4700h to multi channel stereo lol. When my Apple tv4k movies come in Atmos my Denon switches. Sometimes I chose Multichannel Stereo over Dolby.
Hi MASTER :
Thanks for all you video , I have Denon AVR -X 2400 I am very happy when this receiver .
This is my question ….. tho receiver work w/ 8 K tv? Thanks
Is there a way you can demo the SVS ultra surrounds in duet mode to reflect the rears off the wall behind you? I have the same setup and contemplating this route but never heard anyone talk about splitting this speaker into two
Where did you get "the dude" wall art? I've been searching and searching but I cannot find that print. Keep up the great work/videos, I've learned a great deal about Dolby Atmos from you!
Hi! That's a painting our friend did a while back. Thank you so much for watching!
Hi channa d
If I don't have a avr with auro 3d, then what to optimise listening with 5.1.2 or 5.1.4
I was not aware of alot of this when I wired my 5.1.2. I've been learning from your last 2 vids.
Although similar setup to yours, mu couchbis against a half wall with another half of a room behind. No place for war level rears, but curious about trying angled in ceiling just tor rears
Please let me know how you like the current 5.1.2 setup. Where are you 2 height channels located compared to your couch? Do you think the extra 2 speakers for atmos have made it a lot better?
I am upgrading from an old 5.1 system, very old actually, 90's Dolby Pro Logic reciever...and I can't decide what to get other than knowing it will be a Denon AVR and either Polk or Klipsch speakers...
@@isaiahfurrow7414 honestly if my room was able, I would've went to 7.1 instead. I mean some effects are ok and cool, but there isnt a ton of really good atmos movie content. The music content is ok. But now I'm working on figuring out a way to do rear surrounds instead of adding g 2 more height channels
I'm building a 5.1.4 atmos system, and my couch is up against the wall. where should I put my surround speakers?
I have a 5.2.4 system with my main listening position up against the wall and rear surround on the side as you described. I always suspected that this was happening… But there are no solutions for my current setup so I deal. Sadly the x3600h doesn’t do Auro 3D do compensate.
I used dipole speakers positioned next to the couch firing back off the wall ’behind’ the seating position to give an approximation of rear speakers. Worked well enough tbh.
Interesting...
I do the same jingo. I love the SVS surrounds for this purpose. It works perfectly. My couch is against the wall with no room for rear surround backs. The SVS does a great job of separating the rear and rear backs.
Channa, did you not use something like Audyssey when setting up your upstairs home theater? If so, surely that should have detected that you have no back surround speakers but only side rear surround speakers and therefore know which parts of the 5.1 and 7.1 audio tracks to feed those speakers so everything sounds as it should?
Yeah, the AVR knows there’s no surround back, but it still thinks the surrounds are behind my MLP.
Sony receives/processes have an option to create "virtual" speakers and move them to proper place, after calibration, for not ideal 5.1.2 systems. DTS-X also can upmix bad mixes.
I have the denon 4700 with the same setup as you except for the god channel, the auro 3d is the best thing about it , the surround bubble is better in that format , I also run run the Bose Ls 650 next to it and I have to say it’s neck to neck the performance , for imperfect rooms I believe the 360 firing speakers is the way to go for a good surround bubble . Now I have to pick which system I keep in the room and which goes in the guest room .
Hi on the initial setup there are certain speaker layouts, it’s pretty plain to follow if it’s a 5.1.4 there are no sides , so if your surround speaker are either side of you and not behind you that’s your issue and that’s not the proper setup , it’s quite simple if you can’t put the speakers in the right place it’s obvious the sound isn’t going to be coming from there 🔊🔊🔊🔊🔊🔊🤷♂️
Great info
What your thoughts on connecting side surrounds from the av receiver but placing them in the back surround position
Maybe not placed directly behind but more corner position might sound better
I.ve got a Denon Atmos AVR, and will try Aural 3D-thanks for the tip, because I live in a tight space(apartment) and even then may disconnect the subby out of consideration of my neighbours
Hi channa d
If I watch 90 % movies on OTT Netflix Amazon prime etc, their audio quality over the internet is seriously compressed,isn't it, because of internet bandwidth I beleive. Also they broadcast most content in Dolby digital or 5.1 mode most of the time ,isn't it?
Please correct me if i am wrong
So if it's true what i said, then which Atmos speakers configuration is most appropriate for building my future home theatre?
Pls advise