You missed a very good point towards adding external amplification, and that is ohm load! If you own or are going to buy speakers that are 4 ohm, the external amps will handle the load much better than an AVR's internal amps. I do wish more companies would include pre-outs for all channels.
I also added Emotiva Basx amplifiers to my A2080. In my case it made a huge difference because my speakers are only 85db sensitive and 6 ohm. AVR used to clip early now I can drive them louder.
@@joelgonzalez8289 I do love my 2080, best bang for the buck, purchased refurbed because I hated the looks of the new ones. I normally listen at -20 db so I haven’t pushed anything.
Room size is a big factor - if you're in a small room and near your speakers you do not need external amplification - if you're in a much bigger room you obviously need more power to reach the same SPL as you do in the small room.
I have a 7.3.4 system, run by a anthem 1140 avr, originaly with no external amp, definitive technology 9080's and center. The towers are 300 watt speakers so like you're saying after driving all those speakers i could be wrong but I figured the towers were only getting about 60 watt's. That bugged me long enough so when I could afford it i bought a anthem 325 3 channel amp for the front stage. Wow what a difference, not only do i not need to push them so hard but the quality of sound in incredibly better. The sound just opened up, amazingly better! Love your vidios keep them coming.
It's all of the above, depending on your use case. A well matched amp will dynamically scale from lower volumes to reference levels without clipping and damaging your speakers. It isn't something most people are likely to appreciate in near field music listening, unless they like to listen to music with a lot of aggressive tonal shifting characteristics.
I found the same result moving from a Denon X2300W with about 90w/channel specs to a Denon X6700H with about 140w per channel with the addition of my front mains being powered by a Crown xls 1002 with over 200w per channel. Listening at -20db is very, very comfortable. And I can turn it all the way up to reference without any audible distortion, where the X2300W would start to distort and become uncomfortable at around -10db. The same volume level was louder and more dynamic and I could play louder more comfortably. So with that result, I plan to use external amplification for all my speakers over time. Planning to put 200 watt Monoblocks on the LCR, and after that each surround and height channel being powered by 2-channel Crown amps at 200w/channel each. I won't ever come anywhere near the max power of the system. Distortion should be very low.
I'm curious why you didn't use the Denon AVR amps to power the ATMOS speakers, the Crown amp for your mains, and the Yamaha external amp for the rest? It sounds like you left some of the available power on the table by not using the Denon's internal amplification for something.
That’s a good suggestion. The preamp mode on the Denon is only available when all channels are driven thru external amplification. Would be an interesting test to see if we hear a difference with one way over another.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Ahh, so it's an "either / or" situation. Got it. That's a shame that you can't leverage some of the internal power for *something*. Great video!😀
In my case it was absolutely worth the upgrade, mainly for the stronger dynamics and fuller soundstage. You just feel the power while the amp is only slightly warm, versus a hot pan before. It gave a vitality boost to my speakers with a 7x130w amp. After upgrading to the Denon 4800 the sound refinement went up another notch together with the much improved subwoofer calibration, which is now truly independent.
Love the topic of this video! I am wondering about your experience with the AVR volume level though. Audyssey will set your speaker levels so that your speakers will reach the same SPL at the same AVR volume. Adding an external amp should NOT make any difference in SPL output at a given AVR volume. What you heard must have been something else than a difference in SPL, otherwise something must have gone wrong with the Audyssey calibration. You can easily verify with an SPL meter.
If you want more details in your sound, especially background sounds and dialog, then yes, definitely add an external amp. I added a Pantages G4 for my bed layer speakers to my Marantz Cinema 40 and that was the first thing I noticed right off the bat. I also use the same movies and scenes (Endgame final battle) as a test bed for every time I do changes to my system. But I love how I can really hear off screen sounds so much more prevalent now, like footsteps, horses, carriages, explosions, etc. The best way to put it, with just the receiver it's like you're focusing your lens but you can't quite get it to razor sharp focus, then adding the external amp, you finally nail that razor sharp focus. Years down the road when it's time for me to upgrade my receiver, I'll go with a straight pre pro as I can imagine having a processor that only needs to focus on processing the sound will probably make a great impact on sound quality.
Good video and good advice, but just for the record.. unless the room or speakers require it, a poweramps only job is to boost an output signal! Whereas with an AVR, is responsible for receiving & processing the signal. Even if an AVR is using external amplification, it's still the components within the AVR that will be responsible for quality the signal. Boosting an already established signal is basically giving one more of what ones already got. Hence, unless one is satisfied with the incoming signal, then IMO, the output signal should never be boosted. As far as sound quality goes, it won't make a difference.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. Yes, the sound was improved. We watched some clips from Dark Knight Rises and I was struck by how crystal clear Bane’s dialogue was. His spoken lines are notoriously difficult to understand, but for us every word was clear.
Its simple, it's all in the powersupply... your avr can say 140W per channel, but the powersupply just can't deliver that for all channels. Use the AvR for the small surrounds or atmos and power your LCR with external amps if you like dynamics
With a cross over at 80Hz for all speakers (7.2.2) and a beefy AVR (Yam rxa6a), most power demanding frequencies are managed by the subs. Medium/large 3000cu room, listening around 75-85dba, mainly music, speakers sensitivity > 90. Do not see any needs to add an amplifier. Good amplifiers do not change sound, they are just here to amplify a signal. If your amplification is ok for your listening habits and system without any clipping, overheat, do not see what it will bring.
Once we listen with external power amplifier plugged to avr , then there is no turning back. It opens up the real potential of your speakers. Soeakers with 4-8 impedence asks more clean power to drive them. Avr is just doing the splitting of power. So there is a compromise. Power amps drive the drivers with control. Thereby the mains will not cause excitation of modes in the room.
Good video on the pro's of using external Amp. I'm looking at adding external Amp as i noticed when watching movies with my Yamaha A6a at high levels it gets hot and I can here the fan kicking in which is annoying when the scene goes quiet. Adding Amp will take the load of the internal amps on the Yamaha A6a. Do you Bi Amp your speakers
I have a marantz cinema 70s 50 watt receiver so for the SVS pinnacle speakers and prime center speaker I have I’m giving them an emotive xpa external amplifier of 275 watts all 3 channels drive to them
I think my answer is you dont need to. But if you want to, its awesome. I will say having gone to separates, its way better. But its also more complicated and expensive, and not for everyone.
At the beginning of my journey, I only used an AVR. I'm using only a basic 5.1 configuration in my home theater room. For a while, I thought everything sounded decent and had enough power but...something was missing. For many action movies, I felt a certain lack in dynamics, something did not sound quite right (with or without room correction). I've read a lot of opinions about separates and many swore that it didn't make any difference. All I can say right now is: yeah, right! Now, I am completely running on separates, with an AV processor and 3 power amps. I even have 2 monoblocks for the main front speakers (and thinking about adding another one for the center channel). The change in dynamics is quite obvious and any decent power amp will manage these transitions with ease. More power reserves didn't hurt anyone and you don't have to worry anymore if your AVR can really handle all the amplification needed. I never liked the idea of a single box doing everything. This approach for more convenience always comes with a price. Yes, separates will cost you more but it's a much better investment for the long term. There is a real chance that those power amps will last decades, without major problems. It was never about the room size, the speakers' sensitivity, it was always about my peace of mind and some obvious advantages of using separates.
No unless your speakers are bi ampable. And I wouldn't do that with none matching amplification. You can still use the receiver as an amp itself though alongside another amp with each driving different speakers. For example, a 3 channel dedicated amp for your LCR and the receiver powering everything else. The receiver will then have more power available for those remaining speakers as it's no longer driving the LCRs.
To go with the analogy, do you know you were doing 90mph at -10db level, rather than 45mph? Denon amp can do +16db (or so?) loudness, so perhaps there was still power headroom left for an explosion at -10db?
I'm thinking of buying an external amplifier for my 5.1 system in a small room. I would especially like to improve the quality of dialogues when watching a movie. Do you recommend preamping only the center channel or just the fronts or all 5 channels? I have the same avr as your brother. Thanks for your videos!
With 5 speakers, I recommend a solid 5 channel amp like this one from Outlaw Audio. Very good value to performance ratio. Then if you add more speakers in the future you can run them off the 3700H internal amps. Thanks, glad you enjoy the videos! outlawaudio.com/shop/products/50-model-5000x-5-channel-amplifier.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpvK4BhDUARIsADHt9sQESw-j_iXv2lbUSPZfIKhSjO6gWwlfNFmN7l5pkHyDK6re1t6_gOMaAgHTEALw_wcB
I definitely would not amp the center only. I would go with a 3 channel amplifier for the front 3 channels. The rear two channels are usually just for ambient/special effects anyway. (Emotiva, Monolith, and Outlaw are affordable options.) That said, if you're made of money or simply don't mind spending the extra cash, paying for a 5 channel amp is also always an option. I have a similar situation as yours and thinking of adding an affordable 3 channel amp to my Marantz SR6015 in my very small game room.
@@shaolin95 I will replace my center channel too. Is a basic polk xt30. It is positioned in front of me, aligned with my ears and with the tweeters aligned with the front speakers. Plus it's very close to the wall, avoiding reflections.
If you can financially justify doing all 5 do all 5, even if your receiver is good enough 2 channels driven for the surrounds, as this will allow you to use preout mode on the receiver. If you can't then you could do 3 channels for LCR and leave the receiver doing surrounds. Although if the difference in price between 3 channels and 5 channels is enough to add Atmos you might want to consider 3 channels and more speakers instead if your budget is limited.
That depends on your room size, and if you have more than 9 or more than 11 channels, than I would highly recommend that you get a receiver/pre-pro with pre-outs, and than start getting your dedicated external power amplifiers, take that load of speakers off of your pre-amp, and then re-run your room correction.
I plan to upgrade my current sound system and purchase a Denon AVR-x6800h with SVS ultra evolution pinnacle, ultra evolution center & ultra evolution nanos. I currently have an Emotiva BasX A3, should I get some monoblock amps instead for the front stage? If so, any recommendations?
The Emotiva should be great for your LCR’s. If you’re looking for monoblocks, I recommend the Outlaw Audio 2220. I run my LCR’s with 3 of the Outlaw amps.
I enjoy watching the video clip . When i bought my power amp i notice there more detail in sound like watching Ready Player One compare to the receiver in sound .
I went from the Denon 8500HA to the Marantz AV 10 with x2 Tonewinner 7x200w power amps and never looked back. My system is 7.2.6 in a room thats 13x11x7
Well done 👏🏼 👍🏼 Your explanation of using external amplification in Laymans terms excellent 👍🏼 I have the Denon X40700H and I run my LCR with a Emotiva XPA Gen3 Black Modular Power Amplifier 3.0 And now after listening to your explanation for the rest of them, I’m thinking of getting the same type of amp to run the rest that’s for bed layers and four Atmos that should make a difference and help the denim not to get a sweat on 😄😄😄🏴🇬🇧
If you have to add an external amp anyway because most receivers drive 2 less than they're capable of processing, then you may as well get at least a 3 channel amp for your LCR rather than only provide extra power to your sides and not to your centre. Then really it's a matter of budget. Even if you need the extra for your other speakers if you can't afford it you can't afford it but you can always add more further down the line for surrounds and atmos. You can still use the preouts without using full preout mode. Amps are kind of a buy once cry once thing. Once you have them, unless you upgrade to much more powerful speakers, you have them. As a result there's also a lot of perfectly functioning amps on the second hand market. I'd always try to get amps capable of driving speakers up to their max wattage capability on their specs so they can perform at their maximum. Wether or not you ever use that headroom is another matter but amps don't need to be expensive, especially if you get speakers rated up to 200W or less.
I invested in a D-Sonic external Power Amp and now I can push my setup to any volume and it never distorts or sounds strained or fatigued. All components run cool and the immersive experience is exceptional. I would highly recommend external amplification for any setup. Keep up the good work. Subscribed 🍺
The Denon is getting about 40-50wpc, all channels driven. The Yamaha is about tue same, slightly higher all channels driven, with only 9 channels driven you're getting more wpc again. Your brother should do the heights on the Denon, the bed layer to the Yamaha, and his L+R on his Crown. Spread the power out and you migh see even more dynamics available.
Denon states they guarantee 70% of the power rating to the mains (LR) with all channels driven. I have the x4700 so I figure I am getting about 88w which is plenty loud with sitting about 10 ft from front soundstage. However I am considering getting a Buckeye amp to drive my JBL LCR at around 200w per channel and let the Denon handle everything else (8 surround and Atmos). Don’t really need it but always striving for more dynamic performance. 🤭
This is a helpful video!! Thanks!! 🎉 btw. Specoftech did a whole video on those fospower banana plugs, and if you read the reviews closely, they are really not good!! 🎉 can cause major issues down the road. 🎉 Side note. I recently learned that the number of channels driven per supply also plays a big role! 🎉
Adding an amp to a receiver will make your system sound a little better but go ahead and scrap the receiver too and get a processor too and your sound will improve by leaps and bounds
If you calibrate and level set your speakers to 75db with -30 db pink noise.. the volume should have been the same at -10db whether using amps or not. I didnt understand the "now only needs -22db comment" again this is if speakers were level matched to 75db to potentially offset gain differences from the amplifier.
That difference was subjective not measured. They were listening at a lower volume but were more satisfied with the sound at that lower volume using external amps, even if they didn't realise that's what was happening. Assuming they didn't mess up calibration of course. I can only imagine this was mostly due to the centre not having an external amp previously and the receiver not being up to driving it adequately causing it to clip or something.
@@joelgonzalez8289 true, but people often compensate for things like poor dialogue by turning up the volume too and putting up with other sounds being louder than they'd prefer. The types that are constantly turning the sound up and down between action and dialogue sequences for example, that make me want to throw their remote out the window.
on my Denon X3800H I running in preamp mode for all channel , all my channels are powered by external amp , my receiver is super cool in temperature and my system sound very loud without crank up to max the volume and no clipping or distortion what so ever
Ill save everyone the hassle- is your AVR is ungodly under powered for the system you're powering for your room? Yes do it- Outside of that- The only time you'll have a "better" experience is if you double the power. IE avr is 100W you need 200W min- to get 3db (noticeable difference)
It's pretty simple. If your running a small system with efficient speakers, these people tell others you don't need external amps. For those of use with large or extreme systems, use external ampliers. 🎉 🎉🎉
i have speakers with 15" drivers that are designed for literal movie theaters is that considered a small system? . it uses 4 watts to play 105 decible peaks. are you saying i need an external amplifier for this?
Something not rjght there. Suddenly playing a lot lower on the reference scale shouldnt happen, as its calibrated for 0db to be 85db, a set volume level will be same volume with or without the power amp. In theory you would potentally play louder as if its cleaner as our ears equate distortion to too loud. It a db scale after all -20db should be playing at 65db in either case. Did you check the trims before and after to make sure they werent maxed out at +/- 12db.
I wish I had checked the trims before recalibrating. It’s likely the channels were boosted. But I do know after recalibrating everything looks good. The mains and Center are set at 0 and +1
I think you are missing the point about the amount of headroom with a your analogy. If your comfort level is -10 and then you are driving with external amp -22 or whatever, the volume is the volume weather you are running -10 or -22. The benefit is a CLEANER sound because of the sound floor not being raised. You have not mentioned anything about noise to signal ratio etc…
What confuses me is…people talk about the “sound” of certain manufacturers avr’s, but then buy cheap amps and believe it sounds great. Wouldn’t that be like having mixed matched speakers? They’re not going to sound the same. And if they do, then how can people talk about how the sound changes between different avr manufacturers?Why not just buy the absolute cheapest of everything. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. I’m currently running an Anthem 1140 with a MCA 525 for a 9.2.6 and wouldn’t dream of mixing that with a different manufacturer amp.
Well it’s really a yes and a no. The problem most ppl who get home cinema get a denon 3800h or a Marantz cinema 50 and they believe what is written on the label 100 watts!!! If you want to skip the power amp section. You need a quality avr like Arcam avr 31. That has a serious power under the hood with 1.6kw power transformer. I think one of the biggest between all avrs out there. Ita 120watts for 2 channels and 100watts for 7 channels. Has crazy dynamic but if you still want to put that on the next lvl just get a pa240 for the fronts and that most probably all u need. Most of the power amps made by the factories are crap or they cost a fortune. I had the same Yamaha power amp u had in the video but it was very far from the rating what it says on it. My arcam avr 31 definitely has more power under the hood and thats just a receiver.
Denon AVR are really good, but not over the top great. Denon would absolutely be my second choice. Great for movies, video games and tv shows. But . . . I would not want to listen to music on them. IMHO, they are little too forward for music. Thats why I stick with Marantz, which to my ears sound deeper, richer, warm/inviting while maintaining detail.
I have a problem with this video. You said before amp listen to -15 to -10 but after amp -22 to -20. If calibration was done correctly both time there should be no volume difference because that volume measurement is supposed to be according to reference setting. So if you room is set to 85db with 20db peaks for 105db then -20 should be 65db with 85 db peaks. Now speaker levels is entirely a different story. Now speaker say before speaker levels ranged from -3 to +3 and now with external amp they ranged from -12 to -6, that makes sense. Where the extra power comes in handy is dynamics. Using your car analogy you are doing 75 and need to pass someone but the econobox can only get to 85 like a speaker and sound not being able to reach that full peak. Not having as dramatic effect in that guitar string strum or cymbal crash or shrill siren of the police car. Where you high performance car goes to pass from 75 it can easily hit 95mph or more instantly to pass. Same as giving that immediate impact of higher volume sound.
Assuming calibration didn't have any issues then it did calibrate to the same volume and level match. Either the receivers amps aren't outputting what the display claims (so -10db was actually -22db) or the sound quality such as dynamic range was improved such that they found the sound satisfying at a lower volume and previously he was turning it up more to compensate, or a bit of both. Remember the centre channel wasn't previously on a separate amp so it's possible dialogue was improved if the receiver wasn't up to driving whatever centre channel he's using.
Sorry but you never answered the question of whether adding external amplification to that setup made a noticeable sound quality difference. You didn't carry out a real A/B blind listening test matching sound pressures. Your opinion about having more horsepower wasn't supported by anything in this video. Comparing numbers on the volume knob is pretty Spinal Tap...
I disagree. Assuming there wasn't anything wrong with the calibration process then in both setups the speakers were level matched. This means they were listening at a lower volume and more satisfied with the sound at that lower volume. Meaning previously he was turning it up more to compensate for something, likely worse dynamic range. Either that or one of them isn't performing as it should and -10db beforehand was a lie, which is entirely possible.
Ehhhh this is a really bad example and poor test. Specifically: this doesn’t mean much at all as Denon has been known for many years to have low gain. I.e. they tend to be quieter than other makes at the same supposed volume ‘level’. I compared my 90w /channel Denon to my 70w /channel Yamaha and the Yamaha was consistently higher at the same stated decibel volume. The Denon sounds noticeably better and has loads more power. The Yamaha is a bit thin in my system and makes my speakers sound unusually forward. I don’t disagree with most of the assertions here- more power is generally more better. But the notion of comparing relative volume levels is flawed from the beginning. That decibel ‘level’ is not some calibrated measurement it’s a very loose signifier of steps to ‘reference volume’ (whatever that is) and is going to vary wildly between different makes and models.
My Denon A1H in my small 15m2 room is so loud , at the 60 volume level is fucking loud as SPL meter show me then 95 db !!!!! So only weak AVR needs extern Amp. But AUDYSSEY calibration defoult set volume front ch to -8 db so you have to rise for +3,5 db and rest channels with SPL meter.
I have a Denon A1 H. It's built like a tank. Good amps but definitely not worth the money. I also have a Marantz cinema 30. That is way better! Better still, Cinema 40.
You missed a very good point towards adding external amplification, and that is ohm load! If you own or are going to buy speakers that are 4 ohm, the external amps will handle the load much better than an AVR's internal amps. I do wish more companies would include pre-outs for all channels.
I added a three channel Emotiva Basx to my Yamaha 2080. I’m not sure it improved anything, but more boxes with more lights is always an improvement.
I also added Emotiva Basx amplifiers to my A2080. In my case it made a huge difference because my speakers are only 85db sensitive and 6 ohm. AVR used to clip early now I can drive them louder.
@@joelgonzalez8289 I do love my 2080, best bang for the buck, purchased refurbed because I hated the looks of the new ones. I normally listen at -20 db so I haven’t pushed anything.
The yamaha 2080 has a strong amp. The basx may not be enough. The xpa lineup is much better
Facts, Brother! 🤣🤣
Room size is a big factor - if you're in a small room and near your speakers you do not need external amplification - if you're in a much bigger room you obviously need more power to reach the same SPL as you do in the small room.
If you need more power for the kind of speakers you have you do.
Plus it’s personal preference
Its not only that. But if you have high sensitive speaker like klipsch to see its original depth we need external power amp
I have a 7.3.4 system, run by a anthem 1140 avr, originaly with no external amp, definitive technology 9080's and center. The towers are 300 watt speakers so like you're saying after driving all those speakers i could be wrong but I figured the towers were only getting about 60 watt's. That bugged me long enough so when I could afford it i bought a anthem 325 3 channel amp for the front stage. Wow what a difference, not only do i not need to push them so hard but the quality of sound in incredibly better. The sound just opened up, amazingly better! Love your vidios keep them coming.
Adding an external amplifier to an AVR is not about playing louder, it's about playing cleaner and with much more clarity.
It's all of the above, depending on your use case. A well matched amp will dynamically scale from lower volumes to reference levels without clipping and damaging your speakers. It isn't something most people are likely to appreciate in near field music listening, unless they like to listen to music with a lot of aggressive tonal shifting characteristics.
I found the same result moving from a Denon X2300W with about 90w/channel specs to a Denon X6700H with about 140w per channel with the addition of my front mains being powered by a Crown xls 1002 with over 200w per channel. Listening at -20db is very, very comfortable. And I can turn it all the way up to reference without any audible distortion, where the X2300W would start to distort and become uncomfortable at around -10db.
The same volume level was louder and more dynamic and I could play louder more comfortably. So with that result, I plan to use external amplification for all my speakers over time. Planning to put 200 watt Monoblocks on the LCR, and after that each surround and height channel being powered by 2-channel Crown amps at 200w/channel each. I won't ever come anywhere near the max power of the system. Distortion should be very low.
Now please write your Audyssey channels levels after calibration !!!!
I'm curious why you didn't use the Denon AVR amps to power the ATMOS speakers, the Crown amp for your mains, and the Yamaha external amp for the rest? It sounds like you left some of the available power on the table by not using the Denon's internal amplification for something.
That’s a good suggestion. The preamp mode on the Denon is only available when all channels are driven thru external amplification. Would be an interesting test to see if we hear a difference with one way over another.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Ahh, so it's an "either / or" situation. Got it. That's a shame that you can't leverage some of the internal power for *something*.
Great video!😀
Biggest thing I noticed when switching to seperates, more power equalled better sound at a lower volumes.
In my case it was absolutely worth the upgrade, mainly for the stronger dynamics and fuller soundstage. You just feel the power while the amp is only slightly warm, versus a hot pan before. It gave a vitality boost to my speakers with a 7x130w amp. After upgrading to the Denon 4800 the sound refinement went up another notch together with the much improved subwoofer calibration, which is now truly independent.
That's fantastic! It's great to hear that upgrading your amplifier made a real difference.
Never put your rack next to water softener
Love the topic of this video! I am wondering about your experience with the AVR volume level though. Audyssey will set your speaker levels so that your speakers will reach the same SPL at the same AVR volume. Adding an external amp should NOT make any difference in SPL output at a given AVR volume. What you heard must have been something else than a difference in SPL, otherwise something must have gone wrong with the Audyssey calibration. You can easily verify with an SPL meter.
If you want more details in your sound, especially background sounds and dialog, then yes, definitely add an external amp. I added a Pantages G4 for my bed layer speakers to my Marantz Cinema 40 and that was the first thing I noticed right off the bat. I also use the same movies and scenes (Endgame final battle) as a test bed for every time I do changes to my system. But I love how I can really hear off screen sounds so much more prevalent now, like footsteps, horses, carriages, explosions, etc. The best way to put it, with just the receiver it's like you're focusing your lens but you can't quite get it to razor sharp focus, then adding the external amp, you finally nail that razor sharp focus. Years down the road when it's time for me to upgrade my receiver, I'll go with a straight pre pro as I can imagine having a processor that only needs to focus on processing the sound will probably make a great impact on sound quality.
Good video and good advice, but just for the record.. unless the room or speakers require it, a poweramps only job is to boost an output signal! Whereas with an AVR, is responsible for receiving & processing the signal. Even if an AVR is using external amplification, it's still the components within the AVR that will be responsible for quality the signal. Boosting an already established signal is basically giving one more of what ones already got. Hence, unless one is satisfied with the incoming signal, then IMO, the output signal should never be boosted. As far as sound quality goes, it won't make a difference.
Great video ! You didn't tell us though, did you get better sound? Did you get better dynamics?
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. Yes, the sound was improved. We watched some clips from Dark Knight Rises and I was struck by how crystal clear Bane’s dialogue was. His spoken lines are notoriously difficult to understand, but for us every word was clear.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome great thanks for sharing
Great video George. At some point I would like to add an external amp to my system, after my theater room is done
Its simple, it's all in the powersupply... your avr can say 140W per channel, but the powersupply just can't deliver that for all channels. Use the AvR for the small surrounds or atmos and power your LCR with external amps if you like dynamics
With a cross over at 80Hz for all speakers (7.2.2) and a beefy AVR (Yam rxa6a), most power demanding frequencies are managed by the subs. Medium/large 3000cu room, listening around 75-85dba, mainly music, speakers sensitivity > 90. Do not see any needs to add an amplifier. Good amplifiers do not change sound, they are just here to amplify a signal. If your amplification is ok for your listening habits and system without any clipping, overheat, do not see what it will bring.
Is the Buckeye amp, the purifi version. Isn't it 200 watts per channel. How you like their sound?
It’s the Hypex 4 channel, 150 watts into 8 ohms. I love it!
www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/amplifiers/hypex/nc252mp/4_channel
I’ll buy a basx A3 for my LCR and definitely will get a better center, current one is part of ht in a package
Once we listen with external power amplifier plugged to avr , then there is no turning back. It opens up the real potential of your speakers. Soeakers with 4-8 impedence asks more clean power to drive them. Avr is just doing the splitting of power. So there is a compromise. Power amps drive the drivers with control. Thereby the mains will not cause excitation of modes in the room.
Good video on the pro's of using external Amp. I'm looking at adding external Amp as i noticed when watching movies with my Yamaha A6a at high levels it gets hot and I can here the fan kicking in which is annoying when the scene goes quiet. Adding Amp will take the load of the internal amps on the Yamaha A6a. Do you Bi Amp your speakers
I have a marantz cinema 70s 50 watt receiver so for the SVS pinnacle speakers and prime center speaker I have I’m giving them an emotive xpa external amplifier of 275 watts all 3 channels drive to them
I think my answer is you dont need to. But if you want to, its awesome. I will say having gone to separates, its way better. But its also more complicated and expensive, and not for everyone.
At the beginning of my journey, I only used an AVR. I'm using only a basic 5.1 configuration in my home theater room. For a while, I thought everything sounded decent and had enough power but...something was missing. For many action movies, I felt a certain lack in dynamics, something did not sound quite right (with or without room correction). I've read a lot of opinions about separates and many swore that it didn't make any difference. All I can say right now is: yeah, right! Now, I am completely running on separates, with an AV processor and 3 power amps. I even have 2 monoblocks for the main front speakers (and thinking about adding another one for the center channel). The change in dynamics is quite obvious and any decent power amp will manage these transitions with ease. More power reserves didn't hurt anyone and you don't have to worry anymore if your AVR can really handle all the amplification needed. I never liked the idea of a single box doing everything. This approach for more convenience always comes with a price. Yes, separates will cost you more but it's a much better investment for the long term. There is a real chance that those power amps will last decades, without major problems. It was never about the room size, the speakers' sensitivity, it was always about my peace of mind and some obvious advantages of using separates.
Is it possible to use all channels on your Receiver and on the pre-outs at the same time to make it a larger sound ???
No unless your speakers are bi ampable. And I wouldn't do that with none matching amplification.
You can still use the receiver as an amp itself though alongside another amp with each driving different speakers. For example, a 3 channel dedicated amp for your LCR and the receiver powering everything else. The receiver will then have more power available for those remaining speakers as it's no longer driving the LCRs.
To go with the analogy, do you know you were doing 90mph at -10db level, rather than 45mph? Denon amp can do +16db (or so?) loudness, so perhaps there was still power headroom left for an explosion at -10db?
I'm thinking of buying an external amplifier for my 5.1 system in a small room. I would especially like to improve the quality of dialogues when watching a movie. Do you recommend preamping only the center channel or just the fronts or all 5 channels? I have the same avr as your brother. Thanks for your videos!
With 5 speakers, I recommend a solid 5 channel amp like this one from Outlaw Audio. Very good value to performance ratio. Then if you add more speakers in the future you can run them off the 3700H internal amps. Thanks, glad you enjoy the videos!
outlawaudio.com/shop/products/50-model-5000x-5-channel-amplifier.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpvK4BhDUARIsADHt9sQESw-j_iXv2lbUSPZfIKhSjO6gWwlfNFmN7l5pkHyDK6re1t6_gOMaAgHTEALw_wcB
I definitely would not amp the center only.
I would go with a 3 channel amplifier for the front 3 channels. The rear two channels are usually just for ambient/special effects anyway. (Emotiva, Monolith, and Outlaw are affordable options.)
That said, if you're made of money or simply don't mind spending the extra cash, paying for a 5 channel amp is also always an option.
I have a similar situation as yours and thinking of adding an affordable 3 channel amp to my Marantz SR6015 in my very small game room.
What is your center? Likely issues with dialogue are based on the center speaker quality and or location. Fixing that will be the priority
@@shaolin95 I will replace my center channel too. Is a basic polk xt30. It is positioned in front of me, aligned with my ears and with the tweeters aligned with the front speakers. Plus it's very close to the wall, avoiding reflections.
If you can financially justify doing all 5 do all 5, even if your receiver is good enough 2 channels driven for the surrounds, as this will allow you to use preout mode on the receiver. If you can't then you could do 3 channels for LCR and leave the receiver doing surrounds. Although if the difference in price between 3 channels and 5 channels is enough to add Atmos you might want to consider 3 channels and more speakers instead if your budget is limited.
That depends on your room size, and if you have more than 9 or more than 11 channels, than I would highly recommend that you get a receiver/pre-pro with pre-outs, and than start getting your dedicated external power amplifiers, take that load of speakers off of your pre-amp, and then re-run your room correction.
When your main front LCR speakers are 4 ohms 200w each.
So far Emotiva A3 is powering them . But you do think is it enough 🤔
200 watt each speaker is more than enough
I plan to upgrade my current sound system and purchase a Denon AVR-x6800h with SVS ultra evolution pinnacle, ultra evolution center & ultra evolution nanos. I currently have an Emotiva BasX A3, should I get some monoblock amps instead for the front stage? If so, any recommendations?
The Emotiva should be great for your LCR’s. If you’re looking for monoblocks, I recommend the Outlaw Audio 2220. I run my LCR’s with 3 of the Outlaw amps.
Great informative video 👌👌👌
Glad you enjoyed it! 👍
I enjoy watching the video clip . When i bought my power amp i notice there more detail in sound like watching Ready Player One compare to the receiver in sound .
I went from the Denon 8500HA to the Marantz AV 10 with x2 Tonewinner 7x200w power amps and never looked back. My system is 7.2.6 in a room thats 13x11x7
Well done 👏🏼 👍🏼
Your explanation of using external amplification in Laymans terms excellent 👍🏼
I have the Denon X40700H and I run my LCR with a
Emotiva XPA Gen3 Black Modular Power Amplifier 3.0
And now after listening to your explanation for the rest of them, I’m thinking of getting the same type of amp to run the rest that’s for bed layers and four Atmos that should make a difference and help the denim not to get a sweat on 😄😄😄🏴🇬🇧
If you have to add an external amp anyway because most receivers drive 2 less than they're capable of processing, then you may as well get at least a 3 channel amp for your LCR rather than only provide extra power to your sides and not to your centre.
Then really it's a matter of budget. Even if you need the extra for your other speakers if you can't afford it you can't afford it but you can always add more further down the line for surrounds and atmos. You can still use the preouts without using full preout mode.
Amps are kind of a buy once cry once thing. Once you have them, unless you upgrade to much more powerful speakers, you have them. As a result there's also a lot of perfectly functioning amps on the second hand market.
I'd always try to get amps capable of driving speakers up to their max wattage capability on their specs so they can perform at their maximum. Wether or not you ever use that headroom is another matter but amps don't need to be expensive, especially if you get speakers rated up to 200W or less.
Excellent
I invested in a D-Sonic external Power Amp and now I can push my setup to any volume and it never distorts or sounds strained or fatigued. All components run cool and the immersive experience is exceptional. I would highly recommend external amplification for any setup. Keep up the good work. Subscribed 🍺
Thanks! 🙏
I have a Marantz cinema 40 and nine Anthem power amps makes watching a movie or listening to music an experience.
That sounds like an amazing setup!
The Denon is getting about 40-50wpc, all channels driven. The Yamaha is about tue same, slightly higher all channels driven, with only 9 channels driven you're getting more wpc again. Your brother should do the heights on the Denon, the bed layer to the Yamaha, and his L+R on his Crown. Spread the power out and you migh see even more dynamics available.
I hadn’t considered this. Good suggestion!
Denon states they guarantee 70% of the power rating to the mains (LR) with all channels driven. I have the x4700 so I figure I am getting about 88w which is plenty loud with sitting about 10 ft from front soundstage. However I am considering getting a Buckeye amp to drive my JBL LCR at around 200w per channel and let the Denon handle everything else (8 surround and Atmos). Don’t really need it but always striving for more dynamic performance. 🤭
I think you would be very happy with an external amp. It's a great way to get an extra boost for dynamics, especially on the LCR.
This is a helpful video!! Thanks!! 🎉 btw. Specoftech did a whole video on those fospower banana plugs, and if you read the reviews closely, they are really not good!! 🎉 can cause major issues down the road. 🎉
Side note. I recently learned that the number of channels driven per supply also plays a big role! 🎉
@@MattyDaddy14 thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! I’ll have to check out those reviews, curious to know what went wrong. Thanks!
Adding an amp to a receiver will make your system sound a little better but go ahead and scrap the receiver too and get a processor too and your sound will improve by leaps and bounds
If you calibrate and level set your speakers to 75db with -30 db pink noise.. the volume should have been the same at -10db whether using amps or not. I didnt understand the "now only needs -22db comment" again this is if speakers were level matched to 75db to potentially offset gain differences from the amplifier.
That difference was subjective not measured. They were listening at a lower volume but were more satisfied with the sound at that lower volume using external amps, even if they didn't realise that's what was happening. Assuming they didn't mess up calibration of course. I can only imagine this was mostly due to the centre not having an external amp previously and the receiver not being up to driving it adequately causing it to clip or something.
@paulc5389 If anything, it's usually the opposite where you can listen comfortably at a louder volume do to less distortion.
@@joelgonzalez8289 true, but people often compensate for things like poor dialogue by turning up the volume too and putting up with other sounds being louder than they'd prefer. The types that are constantly turning the sound up and down between action and dialogue sequences for example, that make me want to throw their remote out the window.
on my Denon X3800H I running in preamp mode for all channel , all my channels are powered by external amp , my receiver is super cool in temperature and my system sound very loud without crank up to max the volume and no clipping or distortion what so ever
That’s a great setup!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Thanks
Ill save everyone the hassle- is your AVR is ungodly under powered for the system you're powering for your room? Yes do it- Outside of that- The only time you'll have a "better" experience is if you double the power. IE avr is 100W you need 200W min- to get 3db (noticeable difference)
HEAT KILLS
How about a link to those Banana Plugs your brother uses?
Here ya go
amzn.to/4fmxFhh
It's pretty simple. If your running a small system with efficient speakers, these people tell others you don't need external amps. For those of use with large or extreme systems, use external ampliers. 🎉 🎉🎉
i have speakers with 15" drivers that are designed for literal movie theaters is that considered a small system? . it uses 4 watts to play 105 decible peaks. are you saying i need an external amplifier for this?
Something not rjght there. Suddenly playing a lot lower on the reference scale shouldnt happen, as its calibrated for 0db to be 85db, a set volume level will be same volume with or without the power amp. In theory you would potentally play louder as if its cleaner as our ears equate distortion to too loud. It a db scale after all -20db should be playing at 65db in either case.
Did you check the trims before and after to make sure they werent maxed out at +/- 12db.
I wish I had checked the trims before recalibrating. It’s likely the channels were boosted. But I do know after recalibrating everything looks good. The mains and Center are set at 0 and +1
I think you are missing the point about the amount of headroom with a your analogy. If your comfort level is -10 and then you are driving with external amp -22 or whatever, the volume is the volume weather you are running -10 or -22. The benefit is a CLEANER sound because of the sound floor not being raised. You have not mentioned anything about noise to signal ratio etc…
Unless your running your avr at 0 ( referance level) to be loud enough you don't need external amplification.
What confuses me is…people talk about the “sound” of certain manufacturers avr’s, but then buy cheap amps and believe it sounds great. Wouldn’t that be like having mixed matched speakers? They’re not going to sound the same. And if they do, then how can people talk about how the sound changes between different avr manufacturers?Why not just buy the absolute cheapest of everything. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
I’m currently running an Anthem 1140 with a MCA 525 for a 9.2.6 and wouldn’t dream of mixing that with a different manufacturer amp.
Well it’s really a yes and a no.
The problem most ppl who get home cinema get a denon 3800h or a Marantz cinema 50 and they believe what is written on the label 100 watts!!!
If you want to skip the power amp section. You need a quality avr like Arcam avr 31. That has a serious power under the hood with 1.6kw power transformer. I think one of the biggest between all avrs out there. Ita 120watts for 2 channels and 100watts for 7 channels. Has crazy dynamic but if you still want to put that on the next lvl just get a pa240 for the fronts and that most probably all u need. Most of the power amps made by the factories are crap or they cost a fortune. I had the same Yamaha power amp u had in the video but it was very far from the rating what it says on it. My arcam avr 31 definitely has more power under the hood and thats just a receiver.
Denon AVR are really good, but not over the top great. Denon would absolutely be my second choice. Great for movies, video games and tv shows. But . . . I would not want to listen to music on them. IMHO, they are little too forward for music. Thats why I stick with Marantz, which to my ears sound deeper, richer, warm/inviting while maintaining detail.
Playing music thru my Marantz 7706 was unbelievably perfect
Somehow I think your 'less db volume required' has to do more with the pre-amp input sensitivity difference between the two power amplifiers...
THD is also a factor
I have a problem with this video. You said before amp listen to -15 to -10 but after amp -22 to -20. If calibration was done correctly both time there should be no volume difference because that volume measurement is supposed to be according to reference setting. So if you room is set to 85db with 20db peaks for 105db then -20 should be 65db with 85 db peaks. Now speaker levels is entirely a different story. Now speaker say before speaker levels ranged from -3 to +3 and now with external amp they ranged from -12 to -6, that makes sense. Where the extra power comes in handy is dynamics. Using your car analogy you are doing 75 and need to pass someone but the econobox can only get to 85 like a speaker and sound not being able to reach that full peak. Not having as dramatic effect in that guitar string strum or cymbal crash or shrill siren of the police car. Where you high performance car goes to pass from 75 it can easily hit 95mph or more instantly to pass. Same as giving that immediate impact of higher volume sound.
My thoughts exactly
Exactly right. That's why it's called reference
Assuming calibration didn't have any issues then it did calibrate to the same volume and level match. Either the receivers amps aren't outputting what the display claims (so -10db was actually -22db) or the sound quality such as dynamic range was improved such that they found the sound satisfying at a lower volume and previously he was turning it up more to compensate, or a bit of both. Remember the centre channel wasn't previously on a separate amp so it's possible dialogue was improved if the receiver wasn't up to driving whatever centre channel he's using.
Sorry but you never answered the question of whether adding external amplification to that setup made a noticeable sound quality difference.
You didn't carry out a real A/B blind listening test matching sound pressures.
Your opinion about having more horsepower wasn't supported by anything in this video.
Comparing numbers on the volume knob is pretty Spinal Tap...
I disagree. Assuming there wasn't anything wrong with the calibration process then in both setups the speakers were level matched. This means they were listening at a lower volume and more satisfied with the sound at that lower volume. Meaning previously he was turning it up more to compensate for something, likely worse dynamic range.
Either that or one of them isn't performing as it should and -10db beforehand was a lie, which is entirely possible.
Ehhhh this is a really bad example and poor test. Specifically: this doesn’t mean much at all as Denon has been known for many years to have low gain. I.e. they tend to be quieter than other makes at the same supposed volume ‘level’. I compared my 90w /channel Denon to my 70w /channel Yamaha and the Yamaha was consistently higher at the same stated decibel volume. The Denon sounds noticeably better and has loads more power. The Yamaha is a bit thin in my system and makes my speakers sound unusually forward. I don’t disagree with most of the assertions here- more power is generally more better. But the notion of comparing relative volume levels is flawed from the beginning. That decibel ‘level’ is not some calibrated measurement it’s a very loose signifier of steps to ‘reference volume’ (whatever that is) and is going to vary wildly between different makes and models.
My Denon A1H in my small 15m2 room is so loud , at the 60 volume level is fucking loud as SPL meter show me then 95 db !!!!! So only weak AVR needs extern Amp. But AUDYSSEY calibration defoult set volume front ch to -8 db so you have to rise for +3,5 db and rest channels with SPL meter.
I have a Denon A1 H. It's built like a tank. Good amps but definitely not worth the money. I also have a Marantz cinema 30. That is way better! Better still, Cinema 40.
@@themafia3119 Cinema 30 is also overpriced for only 13 channels man , better in what ? meybe in music but not on movies , ask Andrew Robinson 😉
Like you said yourself though, small room. You're very close to your speakers so don't need to drive them near their maximum performance.