Stray Current Puts Arabella in Danger - Episode 284 - Acorn to Arabella: Journey of a Wooden Boat
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2023
- As Steve and Robin prepare for a trip to New Mexico for rock climbing, they prepare their DIY wooden sailboat for the time they'll be away. Steve ends up getting into details of Arabella's 12-volt marine electrical system as he chases some possible stray electrical current, after consulting Nigel Calder's helpful marine electrical book, he sets to troubleshooting a completely depleted propeller zinc.
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Acorn to Arabella started as a wooden boat building project in Granby, Massachusetts. Steve began the journey as an amateur wooden boat builder crafting a 38' wooden sailboat in his backyard: designer William Atkin's Ingrid with a Stormy Petrel's gaff rig. These videos follow the journey from tree felling, to lumber milling, to lofting, to the lead keel pour and now sailing the boat-sharing details of the woodworking, carpentry, metal smithing, tool building, and tool maintenance that traditional wooden boats command. This ultimate DIY project continues beyond the boat shop, as Steve and crew travel and learn to cruise aboard the handmade wooden boat that they've built. Just kidding about all that, this channel is about a Siberian Laika named Akiva.
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Steve, I watched this with interest, as I have a lot of experience solving difficult electrical problems. If there was one thing I tried to drill into the heads of people I was training it is this: "Assumptions are the enemy." More than half the time when I found the problem, it was something that had previously been dismissed as "that can't possibly be the problem."
I've never seen Nigel Calder's book, there is likey an underlying assumption being made by the author: Things WERE working correctly, then something changed. Either something broke, or was incorrectly modified. That is not the case with Arabella...you are doing commissioning trouble shooting, and can't assume that everything (or even anything) was ever as it should have been. This requires a much different mindset than repairing systems that are known to have once worked correctly. Something may have been incorrectly designed or specified, or not connected as the designer intended or a defective component may have been installed.
I see another deeply embedded assumption in your reasoning that might hinder getting to the bottom of this: You are assuming that there is some _extra_ path (leak) feeding current into the water. Another possibility is that there is a missing or weak _return_ path, such that current is going out to loads as it should, but is not (all) returning on the negative wires as intended...and is finding a route through the water. Nothing I saw you do in the video would uncover this.
You made sure that loads that are turned off are not drawing power from the positive rail. That is a good start. But when things are turned ON, does all the current going out the positive come back on the negative conductor? Unfortunately that is difficult to measure. A DC clamp meter around both conductors could answer the question, but DC clamp meters are a little expensive...and fussy WRT earth's magnetic field. This is what I use: UNI-T UT210e Under $60 on amazon and has 1 milliamp resolution. BUT you have to zero it in the orientation it will have for the reading, earth's magnetic field will cause about +/- 20ma indication as you rotate the meter. The clamp window is big enough to take a AWG-6 Siamese cable, or a 2-0 single conductor, so it might be a really handy thing for somebody leading a DC lifestyle. Which suggests a crude but cheap way to test: A compass held near a Siamese pair should not deflect when the load is turned on and off if the currents are equal. Seems like somebody with your proclivities probably owns a pocket compass.
You can't just meter the negative connection at the battery and compare to the positive side reading, because they WILL be equal...current that goes out the positive battery terminal will always be balanced by current into the negative because that is how batteries work...the question is what path did if follow to get there.
Also, you metered the bilge pumps when they were not running...this doesn't check any wiring beyond the float switches...in particular the pump motor, and failed motor windings are a VERY common source of electrical leakage.
The starting battery is being charged from the house battery. The current drawn by the charger from the house battery + has to return to the house battery -. Is the engine ground connected to both the house battery - and starting battery - , or just the starting battery? I'm thinking it should be both, and if not, that may be the issue.
Replying to boost this. Good points.
Thank you for the valuable insights!
Also, test the bilge water for current.
As for alternators, they can leak. Solenoids on the engine can leak. There are several items on the engine that can produce parasitic loads.
Back probe the driveshaft.
The positive terminal is the destructive reaction. Your zinc is trying to be a positive terminal.
Good luck.
I've done considerable work on power boats and one thing I always see are grounds between all components. Thru hull fittings, prop shaft bearings and couplings, fuel tanks and water and waste tanks, pretty much anything metal bolted to the hull, all grounded and connected to the battery system ground point(engine usually). It's called single point grounding. Your current leak could between grounding points that are not connected together and not at the same potential.
The multimeter was hooked up wrong, at least in this clip.
The 10A socket should only be used when switched to the "amps" range.
Not sure exactly what effect that has on the reading when set to milliamps, but it's certain it won't be correct.
It may be your diesel tank, if it is made of Monel. Monel is the most noble metal in the boat. If it not isolated properly or has a grounded sending unit it could be the problem. In the video you can see the tank in the background and it looks like a old Monel tank. It maybe one more thing to look at.
Thanks for the videos. It has been a great project to follow.
Joe, In the words of Yoda... Observant you are! 😃 You make a great point. If memory serves... during the build they were careful to electrically isolate the Monel tanks from the boat for the very reason you described. They used rubber liners / insulators on the mounting straps. Still something might be contacting the tanks. 👍
Hi, I had a similar problem, but with a simpler system than yours. I replaced the stern gland, cutlass bearing, prop and shaft coupling on my yacht and started to have bits eaten away on the prop. It turned out that there was no electrical continuity across the flexible shaft coupling. A check across the coupling showed a small voltage difference. This was cured by adding a couple of wires across the shaft coupling to electrically join both sides. This grounded the shaft/prop to the engine/battery ground and sorted my problem. Good luck with sorting your problem and with the trip to New Mexico.
Steve, regarding the DC system troubleshooting. An easier way to isolate the individual breaker is binary division of the problem. instead of doing each breaker one at a time, turn on half of them and if there is no leak, that half is eliminated. Turn those off and turn on half of the remaining breakers (1/4 of them total). If the leak shows up, then turn off half of those (1/8th) until you get down to 1 breaker path. Find that leak, fix it and then repeat the entire process to see if there was more than one breaker leaking.
I did not read through all 300+ comments, so someone else might have already addressed the importance of checking the pencil anodes often found on some marine diesel engines. I can't recall the engine make and model on your boat, but if it has an engine anode it will likely need to be replaced as well - especially if the assessed cause ends up being correct. Cheers.
When you get your new anode, you may want to consider my aunt's rule of thumb: if it can wear out, order two, no matter the length of the wear timeline. Of course, when she passed, she had a lot of 'seconds' still in its original packaging: shoe soles, buttons, gaskets, oil filters, coat liners, kitchen gadgets etc. I figure she felt she won the race, since she spent zero time getting anxious about a non-existent replacement esp. for a unique or oddball item.
Good thought, but maybe not so feasible for a boat ;)
Yup, always order one for now and one for Ron - that's laterRon 🤣
100%. Can you please explain this theory to my wife!
Spare zincs are super common spare parts stock on any cruising boat for this very reason. I bet he has spares on hand already and if not he will after this! Sailing magazines, books, and anecdotes in the marina have plenty of tales of stray current eating zincs and sinking boats. It’s way easier to get parts when you’re coastal cruising the US, though. Hard part is deciding what’s critical enough to warrant having spares onboard when you have such limited space.
Steve at 21 minutes you have your meter configured wrong red lead in 10 amp socket should be in mill amp socket even though the read out says mill amp. The meter was reading via a 10 amp shunt. Best wishes to you both on your climbing adventure
@AcornToArabella @johnsawyer2516
YES Multiple people have mentioned this - Hope Steve gets these replies/concerns.
@21:16 You can clearly see that the dial selector is set to mA and the RED METER lead is in the 10A socket. It should have been in the other socket on the opposite side of the meter that is clearly marked uA - mA etc. Sorry Steve - all that time testing may have led you astray. The alternator still needs to be followed up on though.
Other people have mentioned Binary Testing - ie divide the load in half and test. This may exceed the mA current capabilities of the meter so you may need to start on 10 amps and then switch the meter down through the ranges - like fitting a trim piece of wood - sneak up on it. Or continue the one step at a time process.
The circuit Breakers - do they disconnect the Positive and Negative - or just the Positive? Most only disconnect the Positive, leaving the possibilities of ground loops as others have mentioned.
DO a voltage measurement on each Breakers output connector.
Breaker off - Breaker input voltage. - Should equal DC Bus Bar Voltage
Breaker off - Breaker Output Voltage - should be ZERO.
Breaker on - no load - ie Light or device turned off Breaker output Voltage=
Breaker on - load on Breaker output voltage ( Checks for V Drop across Breaker)
Breaker off - Light on - Breaker output voltage - Could indicate leaky breakers or Back feed from adjacent wire/device.
This is an example why this is such a great channel: excellent video explaining the troubles and the methodical way of finding out the likely cause. BTW, my money is on static electricity generated by petting Akiva. Might endanger the boat, but totally worth it ;-)
😃🤣
Yes ! Run an earth ( ground to US readers) lead to Akiva and fix an anode at the end of the lead and always having it in the water when Akiva gets a petting! Fixed!
Dear mathijs
👍👌👏😁😁😁😁😁
2) Please don't forget about the static energy when Robin is brushing her mighty mane! A lot of Archimedes screw shaped locks of hair might create a lot of power!? 😁 :-)
Best regards, luck and health in particular.
I am no electrician but why not just check if there was current at/on the prop shaft when running engine with the alternator connected? Wouldn’t that prove or disprove the hypothesis?
Weakeneing in Earth's magnetic field. Solar actives. Buy more Zinc.
Standard alternators use the chassis as ground for their regulation. Your need a non automotive regulator that has an isolated regulator.
When life gives you lemons, troubleshoot it in a RUclips video! Learn, grow, repeat. You're positive forward thinking is mind-blowing, Steve. Hats off to you!
Our steel hull was completely eaten away by some sort of electric stray current. We ended up disconnecting and not using everything and still don't know the exact reason. It took 3 months on the hard to get the corrosion damage repaired and we needed to remove all the interior. Just one small tip on working with not isolated tools, just put a towel over the contacts you're not working at. Way safer!
Hey Flying Coney!
Nice to see you checking the other good channels also ( Leo/ A2A/ Sail Life/ Ran)
You to belong to that list 👍🏻
Keep up the good work
Greetings from the Netherlands
Leo and A2A inspired us to start a RUclips channel. I follow about 10 projects and I never miss a video of Arabella! It's a bit sad that no new restoration channels being watched by the algorithm. Don't know why this is.@@CaptRobH
Attach your multi-meter to a loose anode, and to the anchor point where it is normally attached, and put the anode in the water.
Try running equipment until you see amps flowing.
Nice troubleshooting exercise! There are some additional possibilities which may be subtle.
(1) ABYC requires that your AC ground connects the safety ground of your AC shore power inlet to the ships ground which usually includes the engine block and keelboats (lead keel & bronze fittings can create a tiny battery). The AC ground (safety ground) is key to tripping breakers if a tool or appliance housing if energized. Good practice is to install a galvanic isolator in the green wire near the AC shore power inlet. I agree that it is probably not the source of your present problem, but it's an item to check.
(2) Lightning protection (bonding) involves connecting metal shrouds ant the masthead to the keel and engine block to manage current flow and offers some personnel protection during a lightning strike. Arabella has dyneema (non conductive) rigging, so your boat may have no lightning protection by design. If it does have such a system, Calder's book offers pointers on best installation practice to reduce connecting systems electrically
(3) Single sideband radios (not much used anymore) require a counterpoise which is another type of grounding system. The counterpoise could provide a DC path to the engine, keel or lightning ground systems unless fitted with capacitors.
(4) The engine offers a continuous DC ground by design which connects the block to the prop unless you have an electrical isolator on the prop shaft (so called zinc saver). The starter, alternator, gauges and engine controls all use the engine as ground and the start battery connects continuously to the engine block. In addition to the probably defective alternator, there are ways gauges and other engine accessories could impart current flow to the engine block. Normally, this is not a problem and wooden boats have used engine grounds for years without a problem.
A good corrosion control contractor could spend a day on the boat with your electrician to make sure everything is up to snuff. Good luck running this issue to ground, as they say.
SB
I'm not a nautical person, but have dabbled in amateur radios. Regarding Item #3 above. While technically accurate, I would not expect the radio to be running all that frequently in transmit mode. I'm sure you have a transponder that is in full duty transmit mode, but and even then the power output to the antenna is not likely to be so tremendous as to be the primary cause of of this unexpected revelation. I'm not saying dont check them, but rather, "I'd put this item really really low on the list"
#4 seems likely - its a new engine right?
@@HomoSapiensMember yes brand new
Most new modern engines with a marine package already have wired sensors rather than using the engine as a common ground.
However, even on Marine engines, there is often a grounding strap located somewhere (often a braided wire strap which is hidden because it's painted over with the factory paint) which often runs to an engine mount.
Personal opinion about trouble shooting: Steve did a fantastic job of isolating and checking the DC systems. I'd suggest that if the alternator is the suspect, proof is in the pudding. When you get back, start the engine without the alternator connected, then with it connected. You won't be sure until you can reproduce it. Tricky to find, but once found, verify.
Before leaving, I would have checked the AC system for good measure. Based on your description, the likelihood the leak is in that system is nearly zero but I have done enough trouble shooting over the years to know that crazy and unexplainable situations exist. The theory about the alternator seems far more plausible than the AC system but the AC system is far simpler to test. It is probably worth the 30-45 minutes of effort just to be sure.
Best of luck!
Good advice. There are so many times when “it can’t be that” turned out to be “that”. Should have just checked “that” in the first place. 🤦♂️
I came for the boat building and stayed for the electrical troubleshooting, something I understand and love to do.
Stephen, auto-parts stores have a canned dip that you dip your tools into to put an insulation film on them. Great stuff.
Or get a peace of self adhesive heat-shrink tubing, use it to insulate any tools that might be used where high current / voltage maybe concerned, we did it to our screwdrivers too.
This is why I began watching this channel. It is an adventure from logging to building and now you and Robin going off and sharing your passions and adventures with us who really cant at this time. Thanks Steve & Robin for all your content and good luck with the climbing. Look forward to that video.
yes, it is always good to have a friend you can phone ... Have a good tour. Robin!
I had forgotten you mentioned an electrical issue in last week's episode. So I saw the title "Stray current puts Arabella in danger" I thought they anchor came loose and current was going to run you ashore :-) If that pun was intended - it worked
Great show as usual. My advice as an electrical engineer is always use a professional in an industry that has a potential danger. Electrical installations appear to be straightforward but there are hidden pitfalls that can be troublesome to say the least. Earth leakage (ground US) is common where electrical motors are used especially in a damp environment. Although your problem does point towards the alternator. A possible solution is to cary out an insulation test on all appliances and electrical motors, normally done at the commissioning stage of the electrical system, also I noticed that a lot of the electrical equipment was lay flat on your boat structure, would be better had it been installed vertical as this helps with heat dissipation. Sorry to be critical, still a fantastic build that you have achieved, wishing you the best.
Steve, I have to agree with you that it's probably connected to the engine. Most of the traveling has been under power so that's a good amount of energy and time used to eat the anode.
A couple of things you can do is fit a switch between the main and starter batteries so you can isolate them and the second thing is have a spare anode on the end of a long wire so if it happens again or the new anode falls off you can throw it overboard with the other end connected to the prop shaft inside the boat. Call it an emergency backup.
Have fun with the trip, hope all goes well. 😀👍
An extra "zinc" (anode) is an excellent idea. You have no doubt seen the commercially available fish-shaped anodes on one end of a wire and a battery clamp on the other end to be connected to the vessel's dc ground or rigging if the steel rigging is grounded. You can easily make your own.
its not a waste of time getting to know your electrical systems intimately
On the plus side, you're learning whether you can get access to everything while in a protected place rather than at sea.
Consider it a system test.
steve as of 24;30 my hypothesis is the engine. remember b+ is connected to the starter and b- is connected to the engine, which connects to the shaft and propeller. i believe that the negative current "unplates" metal. you ran that engine a goodly sum. does the charging circuit for the engine also ground through the engine? how many amps are recharging the starting batteries? please give this a thought and remember you asked. replace the zinc, have someone watch and enjoy your trip.
I think that for measuring milli/microAmps the lead has to be in the right port instead of the left port. Look at 21:17
Came here to say this. He's using the wrong input in the meter.
Yes. If the actual off-camera measurements were made the same way, then the results don't mean anything
Steve read this!
So many have this misunderstanding. Using the 10a test lead position for milliamp level current will be less accurate but the readings will still have the correct order of magnitude. Once he found that current was under 1amp he should have used the normal test position, but the readings on both should be broadly the same (so not a factor of 10, 100, or 1000 out)
@@mikebarry229 actually yes.. it could EASILY be 10's or 100's off. The multimeter measures the voltage difference across a resistor. In the micro-amp range, the "burden" resistor is 92 ohm (I posted somewhere else that the meter he uses is a re-badged uni-t 133A of which there is a teardown). The mili-amp range uses a 1.3ohm resistor, so almost 100 times less. And the 10A range basically uses a thick piece of copper as the resistor, which could very well be in the 10's of mili-ohm. So yes, the measurment could EASILY be 100 times higher.
When you get back you should keep the starter battery system isolated from the house system. Put the alternator back to the original configuration. If you want to use the alternator to charge the house battery then use a DC to DC charger that is designed to charge LiFePO batteries.
More than likely the alternator had some residual magnetic field that caused it to generate power.
@dfhepner 100% correct. The house batteries should be charged through an isolated DC/DC charger connected to the start battery . The Victron DCDC charger can be configured to charge only when the engine is running either by a sense wire or setting the internal parameters. With the alternator back to original spec and connected to the start battery i guarantee the issue will be solved.
@@Ozsmallbore most alternators assume the engine block is a ground and so the negative of the alternator case is common with the negative terminal. Install a isolated alternator and an isolated stater. The system should have a return wire for each power wire.
Steve you & Robin should have a metal plaque made put on a post by the road with a brief history & the years of Arabella & You building it right there in that area.
Typically in application where Stray current exists is where someone has not run a separate ground to each device or used a chassis to ground some device. So you are looking for isolation to the electrical system. This can be found by testing system with all power on to a metallic component. If it exists, which is expected, then start shutting off circuits to see what reduce the isolation current. This is how we do it for solar mobile applications,
Makes sense that the "neutering" of the alternator somehow didn't totally kill it. My first thought was that maybe the solar panels aren't putting all of the current into the system, and somehow some of it is escaping along the way. If the new sacrifical anode is getting eaten while you are away, I guess this could be something worth looking into.
Happy Birthday Robin!!!
If you for some reason end up in Tucson, hit me up and dinner is on me! Good luck climbing, sounds like a boat load of fun! Robin, congrats in advance!
If the new temp anode is clean and whole when you get back, the alternator becomes the main suspect.
Nice to see Steve's clear-headed logic at work.
I agree batteries back feeding through alternator.
One hypothesis which (while unlikely) would perfectly explain the symptoms described, would be that some itinerant boatowner with the same prop and a diving mask purloined it!
Good luck Robin! We’re all rooting for you!!🫡
Steve, this was another brilliantly interesting and well-articulated, educational video journey, and I am not one to sit through electronic topics normally. THANK YOU for your clear-headedness, your drawings, but also your pace. I love learning about all things Arabella, and wish you & Robin a great adventure in the high desert. Can't wait to see it! Lee
I remember, way back then, when the electrical ??? came up. Well there we go. It has to have to do with that.
Awesome progress on troubleshooting, and now when there's a SERIOUS problem, maybe in the middle of a huge sea, the Captain knows what to look for, and how.
The master fuse only disconnects positive. Similarly, your circuit breakers (unless 2-pole) will only disconnect positive. What if there’s a leak on the negative side? I’m not an electrician; I’ve just seen weird electrical problems be before when the negative side wasn’t considered. Great video!
Kudos to you Steve for recording what was probably a super stressful operation. I can't imagine doing that.
Have a safe trip in the mountains and I hope you do your traverses successfully without injury. Blessings to you both.
Electrical systems can be troublesome that's why I am a plumber😅. Good luck out there in New Mexico and happy birthday Robin!
Problem troubleshooting is a passion of mine. Came to the channel for the lead keel pour, stay for the problem solving. Steve is better than most at explaining his processes. Have fun in N.M.
I hope you can overcome this electrical issue Steve. Enjoy yourself in New Mexico. See you back at your boat later on.
Electrical issues like this are scary and intimidating to me, but like almost every other video on this channel that covers things I have no experience with, I leave with a much more informed perspective. It's still intimidating, but Steve's way of explaining and running through his process gives me an understanding of these topics that makes them seem so much more approachable. Thank you as always A2A!
Doug, from Sv seeker had a voltage feedback through the starter that kept the starter engaged and turning the flywheel while the engine was running. You might have to install a bypass relay to isolate all electrical from the engine.
Hope you have a great trip and that the traverse is as fun as it can be. Nice work on the troubleshooting
best FIN yet !!! Thanks STEVE
Happy Friday gang. Helpful friends to troubleshoot with , that’s awesome. Thanks Ben
Thanks for the update.
Great episode. Troubleshooting is always so motivating.
Good luck finding the current leak. Enjoy your time off in New Mexico. Thank you for sharing. Have a great day and stay safe.🙂🙂
We love you guys, Happy B'day Robin.❤
Love this man. Stoked to have been watching this for a bit and appreciate the perspective as you continue the journey- especially with the usual events of everyday growth and maintenance. Really appreciate the attention and time you have afforded your viewers with this. Watching and learning the process, from foundational knowledge, into thought, to process, and enduring/enjoying the outcome(s) is fantastic for anyone who is looking for some positive reinforcement in their own lives on their own unique journeys. Cheers to everyone getting **** done and learning, especially when the learning environment isn't as wonderful as it has been with Acorn to Arabella!!!!!
Edit* Also, someone get this man some Klein tools or the equivalent hahahha.
Parasitic conditions can sometimes be hard to narrow down. It sounds like you are on the right path. Hope you have a safe and enjoyable vacation.
Holy shit this is my home town. Welcome to Las Cruces!
One if the most interesting deep diives into Arabella yet. Thank you for the time and energy you put in on this. Good, safe travels.
I highly recommend getting a Digital Clamp meter. Makes trouble shooting current problems much easier because you don't have to disconnect anything.
The analysis and diagrams around 7:20-7:40 are brilliant. As an electrical illiterate, I had expected this episode would just be way over my head. Still interesting, but I wouldn't really have any grasp of how it works. Steve, you're a natural teacher.
Great video! Electrical baffles me, I feel like I learned a lot from your troubles. Thanks!
Great explanation of the electrical system from a master educator!! Good luck to you and Robin in NM.
Good job troubleshooting👍
So cool to see Las Cruces again. I was stationed near Alamogordo. Every sunset was beautiful. As you were speaking in front of the breaker panel I couldn’t help but notice some heavy duty cables going through the bulkhead above you. The notion of a current through the shaft makes a lot of sense. Two anodes may be better than one. On the shaft and prop. Shaking metal will generate a current. In model aircraft we are constantly searching for RF interference. Metal to metal that is vibrating will cause a radio frequency current. Enjoy New Mexico. The sunsets are great!
Good troubleshooting. Godspeed!
Great video
You can always wrap your tools with electric tape to make it an isolated tool. I do that whenever I have to work on a live circuit.
thanks for sharing
I recommend buying a clamp meter. You can use it measuring current on any wire without havng to diconnecting it.
If you want to find a a leak with the breakers you can try binary search to quickly narrow down where the current is going.
You switch off half of the breakers. if it leaking it means at least one of the ones left is leaking. Then continue with the subset. divide and conquer
A DC clamp is not that precise.
I used one to isolate a leakage path on a car. It's great to have.
Also the meter is set for mA but he's using the 10A connector. That's an issue
@@garci66 lololol! That's not an issue at all and it's exactly how you measure current on his multimeter. 10A (10 amps) refers to the maximum amount of current the multimeter is designed to handle. It also has a 10A fuse built in to make sure that if you run more than 10 amps it doesn't break.
Typically a Silver-Silver Chloride Reference Electrode would be used to track down this type of corrosion problem on a boat. It can also measure how serious the corrosion level is. They are simple to use, with a digital multimeter. A company called BoatZincs sells one that has an ABYC coordinated users manual. A reference cell allows periodic checks over time for stray current or galvanic corrosion. Alternators that are grounded to their engines can cause this type of problem.
And Happy Friday to all as well. greeting from Plymouth UK
Finding that leak is quite a troubleshooting exercise!
When he is done he will intimately know his system ...
he more subtleties, the more problems. Wishing you a nice holiday, and good wind with Arabella
Very interesting! I'm along for the video ride.
If you disconnect the propeller shaft from the engine and put your mA probes over the gap you can just pull fuses and wires until the current disappears. Then you will know where the leak is.
I agree. It's not that easy, but it will solve the problem.
If it's not the alternator.
Or you'd have to do it with the engine running.
ON EDIT: I watched the rest of the video. My closing comment is not applicable, as the alternator was *not* connected to the battery after the first day or two.
ON FURTHER EDIT after further thought: Maybe it remainded connected to the starter battery, in which case my closing comment might still apply.
Here's what I had posted: "Doesn't that imply that for the alternator to be the culprint, the zinc was consumed only during engine running hours? Seems unlikely.
Could there perhaps be a leak when it's not running, given that it's always connected to the battery?"@@rong1924
I hope yourself and Robin have a wonderful Vacation.
Good lock Robin and hopefully when you come back you solve the problem 😊😊
Excellent Trouble shooting! Everything You do is 'First Rate'! Climbing... boat building...
I had the same experience with my Irwin Sloop. I was advised that more or larger zincs would solve the problem but that didn't work. Then someone familiar with the problem suggested a galvanic isolator between the two halves of the prop shaft coupling. I didn't know what that was but it turned out to be a very simple disc of what looked like a two inch thick disc of neoprene one inch larger in diameter than the coupling with four bolts passing thru each side with the heads in half inch deep counter bored holes to prevent electrical contact between the coupling halves, it worked perfectly, and I'm told the isolator also reduces shock from propeller strikes. I ordered mine through West Marine but that was 21 years ago. Happy sailing
Alternator, schmalternator! I think the leak was KP and Annie’s electric personalities combined. Something to consider. 🤔😂
Dear Arabella crew.
👍👌👏 Very well done again (video and work). Steve, you explained everything so very well that even a person like me (not coming from an English speaking country) was able to understand the technical jargon. In my personal opinion the most logic culprit is the alternator respectively some current going to/through the engine. Maybe therefore especially the sacrificial anode on the propeller was eaten away so fast. 2) If it's nevertheless not coming from there, it might simply be static energy coming from brushing Robin's beautiful mighty mane and from brushing Akiva. 😁 ;-) Anyway: Have fun doing this amazing sport challenge. Thanks a lot for making teaching explaining recording editing uploading and sharing.
Best regards luck and especially health to all involved people and Akiva.
Check the starter on the engine too. Also be sure you have an additional ground strap for the engine and not just the ground lug on the starter.
I had the same idea.
When you were checking that everything was off, there were two black boxes hung on the bulkhead behind you with green lights on. That would indicate to me that everything was not off.
I had no idea a complex problem like this even existed...
What a great (albeit terrifying) way to completely review your electrical system
For insurance, you should have set up a metal pole into the water, with a bucketful of anodes on the end, connected by wire to your metalic ground in the boat (engine/prop etc). Better than relying on just another single anode, especially as you are running on assumptions and may not have worked the multimeter properly (‘at least when filming).
Having a similarly connected anode on hinged shaft somewhere permanent on the stern where you can quickly and easily check it might be a good canary in the coal mine, instead of relying on diving to see one underwater-especially on these complex electrical builds all this new tech is making available.
Every now and again, and after any electrical work/changes/issues, have a peek at the ‘telltale anode’.
Definitely
I am not sure they have actually bonded everything together ... they don't have a single ground point for the external fittings, which is absolutely essential.
Sorry for for your leak issue but, an absolutely great program to demonstrate the art of electronic/electrical troubleshooting.
One issue with your current leak might be on your chargers for laptop or other electronic equipment. Electronic manufactures tie the ground together on AC and DC side of the power supply. Try the same process you did but focus on the circuit that you are charging your electronics with. The make a USB A power isolator that you can install. Go though all the electronics you use. Don’t be connected to shore power when doing this.
My first thought is that you have an iron engine block, stainless shaft, bronze floors and a large lead keel, not to mention all of those beautiful copper rivets. That is a lot of dissimilar metals so stray currents are going to be a reality.
On our wooden sailboat, we always had a couple of slabs of zinc bolted on either side of the keel in addition to the prop zinc. I'd even bolt some zincs to the bronze floors in the bilge were they touch the bilge water. It's pretty much impossible to have too many zincs. If you don’t need them, they just sit there looking pretty.
Providided everythign is bonded together, they should be fine. If you fit external zincs, they have to be bonded too, or they can't work. If you ever find a zinc that seems to last several seasons without being eaten away, it won't be bonded to everything else.
@itsverygreen532 It's possible to bond all the big pieces of metal together but there are hundreds of bolts, rivets, and screws that can't be bonded. So, in my opinion, using enoung zincs so that they are mostly intact after a year is a good approach.
The positive probe was in the 10A jack. Should have been in the mA jack when the meter switch was set to read mA's! Suggest the test was faulty and will need to redo!
very informative
My first thought was alternator - But yeah really interested to hear the outcome here.
Also a good opportunity for you to get to know the electrical system even better!
Add a "zinc grouper" to the negative bus bar. Better to be over zinced than lose zinc from your underwater bronze. You want to establish what your electrolysis status is with a silver chloride half cell to determine what you need for zincs. There is a decent instruction manual with the half cell from boatzincs. Also look at Steve D'Antonio's articles on bonding and electrolysis.
Lose, not loose? Anyhow all good places to explore!
Actually, you can also over zinc a boat also. The ProMariner tester works but it's really expensive unless you are using it often.
$139 for a half cell reference electrode. You are right, hard to over zinc a fiberglass boat but I can see why it might be an issue on a wood boat. @@jeffwisemiller3590
There fixed it. So glad we have grammar police for typos. .
Yep. Like a spell checker, they're free, and unlike a spell checker, they're usually right. @@scubaseas1
You might want to consider the possibility that your boat IS the battery, forming a galvanic cell from dissimilar metals in contact with saltwater.
Such a galvanic cell can originate not only from structural components but also from fittings, fasteners, or even underwater sensors made of different metal types. It's a phenomenon worth looking into for solving your issue.
Love it keep it up as always 💘
thank you thank you
Sachel and Madison deserve some of that super cold icecream from the bottom of the freezer!!!!!
I bet you're right, Steve.
I think you are on the right path.
Great vigo have a super time be safe
Top Guy's did a top job on that system💯
I vote for a full video on the organ traverse! 5.12 epic!? Good luck and stay safe!
🙌
High anxiety while watching this episode. Safe travels!
When I read the title of this video, I literally said "the engine alternator is the source". I am not a boat person aside from watching this channel and a couple of others. I have however been 'in the industry' for 20 years as a person who works on electrical systems and engines... I love this sort of issue. Doing exactly this is how we sort out some issues, but it's super rare in my work to need to find stray voltage/current. Very good video to watch Steve hunt this down. As I was confident in my theory, I was very tied to the video to be proven wrong. Very glad to see a source found. Moving forward, changing the alternator may not be necessary. If you get an isolated alternator, you shouldn't have an issue. The current setup, an alternator is going to generate some electrical just by spinning, even if the stator isn't being excited by the charge control. So my advice, isolate the alternator you have from the engine block. I would assume there is something off the shelf, but if not I know Steve can make something!
We’ll be talking to someone soon who will be a big help with this!
@@AcornToArabella That was some great diagnostics on the next episode! So COOL to have Nigel on the boat!