5:09 - i wish people can just feel comfortable talking about certain subjects without needing to justify their backgrounds. Like, not everyone who goes through abuse should be forced to say they have and not everyone who hasn’t should feel banned from discussing it.
Exactly! They don’t owe anyone an explanation for their abuse. They have a right to tell or not to tell, whatever makes them the most comfortable. Those boundaries shouldn’t be crossed
I wish I could pin this comment in front of everyone's face forever. I have specific circumstances of mental health, disability and trauma. People who have not experienced any of them are more than allowed to talk about them, ask questions, learn how others responded, managed or what they deal with. They're also allowed to make wrong speculations and hopefully listen to those who correct them kindly. If we try to shut people out of a conversation, then we close off various perspectives and inputs, including things people in the box can't see or think of. Is it sometimes tedious when someone thinks they have a solution that another one who does have the experience already knows doesn't work? Yes, but that's more to education on human psychology lacking than anything else. And I am absolutely in the camp that feels like I have to preface "I'm x y, z and q" because otherwise what I'm saying isn't valid, will get misconstrued etc. It sucks. It's also exhausting.
As a fellow male SA victim, thank you so much for putting your boundary up clearly and saying you wont share your story here and now. I've always struggled with doing this in social situations myself, and seeing someone else do it helps me feel more confident in putting my foot down :)
I hope you are doing well man, shit is tough and I just want to tell you that I hope you’re having a good day or will have a good day. Bc at this point in the world, we are lacking some good days
you got this, man!! wishing you all the best. putting your foot down and reinforcing boundaries can be difficult but i, random person on the internet, believe you can do it!! ^^
dude, if you ever and i mean EVER feel worthless, know that theres people on the internet that actually DO care about you and im one of them. i wish you the best recovery for trauma and the happiest life
I related to Angel Dust for a while, but then I watched Morel Orel and realised how juvenile the portrayal of SA victims is in Hazbin Hotel. It feels a bit like how a teenager would first explore the concept in their work, sensationalising it. Ms. Gultham and Nurse Bendy are much more relatable to me these days.
Morel Orel is just one of those OG adult swim shows that will always live rent free in my head. And for good reason. I watched it late at night as a kid but rewatching it as an adult makes me appreciate a lot more details.
I would love to bring up the musical "SIX" where one of the women, Anna Katherine, sings about her trauma with being groomed by predatory men and her experience with being SA'd and feeling powerless against them. If you know SIX, then you know that this song also is very pop and sassy in its energy! BUUTT the difference on what made "All you wanna do" so impactful and feel like actual representation is the fact that you as the viewer can understand the predatory behavior without it explicitly showing you it happen like a slap on the face like "Poison" did. All you wanna do, makes a viewer uncomfortable in a way where once you re-listen to it again you start noticing how messed up her situation really was. ESPECIALLY when its sung live, you can see her face slowly also realizing what she's been though which ultimately makes her break down in the last chorus.
I'm also a victim of SA. Always been conflicted about Angel Dust's characterization. On one hand, I've met a lot of people who were assaulted who act the same way he does. Hypersexualization is a really common trauma response, hell, I was extremely hypersexual for years starting at a really early age because of the shit I went through. It's disturbing, but it's an unfortunate reality for many people like us. At the same time, the fact that the storyboarder in Poison gets off to Angel Dust/Valentino is... pretty damn sickening, yeah? Can't really look at many of Angel Dust's scenes the same way, just feels like there's this insidious "fetishization" lingering about.
Talking about Poison, if it makes you feel better: just because one person that happens to have very questionable kinks worked on the storyboard, doesn't mean that the whole scene is fetishy. It's one storyboarder in a team full of other storyboarders, which works with other departments and so on. There are a lot of people involved in the making of an animated show and I don't think one's personal taste can influence an entire scene that much, let alone a character's characterization. That being said: hiring someone with a cnc kink (and who doesn't even bother to hide it) to work for your show with this kind of sensitive subject isn't the best move. I didn't feel like Angel Dust's SA was fetishized and I actually disagree with a lot of what the video is saying, but I agree that this is indeed a very poor decision and I understand why you would feel that way.
Exactly, hypersexualization is a common trauma response and in that regard I get that him as a character isn't horrible in theory BUT it deeply disturbs me that it feels like hes written and imagined from a fetishistic point of view, Idk how to quite explain it but it feels exploitative?
Can confirm, becoming hypersexual after sexual abuse does happen. Tbh, i don't feel like i can even compare it to a trauma. All i knew is that it was wrong but didn't feel hurt. In turn, that made me miss the feelings.... so that's how it can result in HS.
May I add however, hypersexuality does occur, yes, Im hypersexual myself but that doesn't mean you automatically sexually harras anyone you see either, I do think that portraying hypersexuality as a means to sexually harras people is off to me, I strongly dislike it.
While I agree that having that storyboarder work on Poison is shit, one storyboarder doesn't actually have that much influence on the final product. Not only are there a lot more than one storyboarder working on it, there's also the people who actually draw the finished product.
For me, this show lost me the moment they decided to ‘joke’ about Sir Pentious getting assaulted in a club. You can’t pretend to take male victims of assault seriously, and then pull that double standard shit
Yes, and she does this in helluva boss too; she made Blitzø agree the have you know.. with Stolas in order to get a book. And everyone feels bad for Stolas when Blitzø breaks up with him (sorta?) if Blitzø was a woman EVERYONE would hate Stolas. And to be completely honest I didn’t really think about how bad Stolas was until I imaged Blitzø as a woman too ;-;
@@Whitetailedlynx Not to mention the scene where Moxxie gets sa'd by the succubi and incubi; a scene where the line "don't let them access any of your holes" was played for comedy
I KNOW MY BEST FRIEND COWORKER SHE IS A S.A. SURVIVORS THIS EPISODE MAKE ME SOO VERY 😠THAT SHOW NOT FUNNY SHE WATCH THAT EPISODE SHE CRYING IN PAIN TRAUMATIZE RIGHT NOW HOW DARE THEY PUT THAT EPISODE THAT'S NOT FUNNY VIVZIEPOP IS GETTING AWAY WITH THIS I'M GOING TO FIGHT✊ FOR OUR RIGHTS FOR ALL THE REAL S.A. VICTIMS SURVIVORS IN THE WORLD.
@@redactedunknownclowngod2875 I think you’re the one that doesn’t understand. I’m fine with dark humour about SA, but it’s the context that pisses me off. Viv chose to make one of her main characters a victim of assault, and she chose to make put it in a serious light. Then the writers went ahead and chose to JOKE about a man getting raped a few episodes later, which is coincidentally the same episode where Angel’s abuse is brought into light again. You say it’s the audience’s responsibility for what they watch, but shouldn’t it also be the writer’s responsibility to treat sensitive subjects with respect? It’s disingenuous to act like SA is bad one minute, and then next treat it like a joke.
My friends are like OBSESSED with hazbin and helluva boss and I used to watch it to see what they were hyping about and it just makes me so insanely uncomfortable
I like your ranpo pfp (and i agree with you, I used to watch Helluva boss and I liked it a lot in like 2022 but I've seen a lot of videos of like whats wrong with it and stuff so I know what you mean.
I am an SA victim and I do relate to angel (the hypersexuality and addictions)but, I don't understand why the same show that wants to take sa seriously doesn't. When angel gets sa'd it's bad but when sir pentious and Moxxie does it's just a joke. It just feels like the creator doesn't actually care about victims, which is honestly a wild thing to do after they let a victim write poison.
No she doesnt and never had including the fact that shes stole designs and animations she has literally NEVER cared its only ever for her to get higher up the animator ladder.
It's because Angel is a man being violated by men Sir Pentious and moxie got assaulted by women It's very clear she doesn't take male victims by female perpetrators seriously and instead only considers male victims a serious thing when it's against poor owo gay babies assaulted by big bad evil men.
I liked Alastor more in the pilot. In the pilot he was a goofy guy with an evil side. In the show, he's an evil guy with a goofy side that is very insecure.
All of them were except Husk. He more or less left the same impression on me in both parts. Still hate Niffty cus she's super annoying more than anything. And just, there. She's like Millie but if you hated everything about her the second you heard her speak
"People suffering doesn't create good people, it just creates suffering." Oh my lord what a line, not to mention that IMO, Angel Dust doesn't really act like a good person for a majority of the show. He sexually harassed multiple male characters but got away with it because they're all men and because it's "funny". It annoyed me so much with the fact that he didn't even apologize, I thought it was going to be then main part of his arc where he realizes that he's coping with his trauma in a harmful way with realizing he's repeating the harmful actions put on himself. But no, he just makes the men around him uncomfortable but they just accept it with no apology even after Husk says "you're always overstepping my boundaries". I'm really glad a lot of people found AD's story relatable and made them feel a little less alone, but from an outside view it is just not a good look for a lot of survivors and viewers who just get really uncomfortable, which is why I feel the extremely graphic imagery in Poison was disgusting. The scene before, after, and during the literal song communicated the themes and messages that anyone could understand already, so there was no reason to flash horrific imagery like that. I've seen so many comments of people, even fans, dropping the show because of how traumatized they were. This was just an extremely unwise decision, especially trying to make a character to represent FOR victims why would anyone even think of showing that when AGAIN there are already all the surrounding scenes for the message? Thank you so much for this video, I felt more comforted than by the story of any HH character and it meant a lot to see someone touching on just how badly handled AD's writing was.
I think I first saw a sentiment similar to that in Maus, where the author basically talks about his dad being a piece of shit despite being a holocaust survivor, but it's a sentiment that a lot of people have a hard time grasping.
He didn't get away with it though as he got called out on it really. Eh he did apologize in a way though as he stopped doing it after episode 4, that IS what happened though. No they don't just accept it as Husk called Angel Dust out and Angel changed and stopped doing it after that episode which is episode 4. Nah from an outside view it is a good look for a lot of survivors and viewers as not everyone is a perfect human being including survivvors and victims really. It was kind of meant to be disturbing though. Eh not everyone understood everything that was really going on though and it was also done to show what Angel's life is really like so no there was reason to flash horrific imagery like that. Nah it was a wise decision there just always should have been a trigger warning disclaimer though. Nah Angel Dust worked out as rep for victims, because again not everyone understood everything that was really going on and it was also done to show what Angel's life is really like.
well that is the thing. angel dust suffering made him a worse person. then he got a buncah people around him who care about him and gave him a support network. enough to endure it. ...... sad truth though is it puts a bad light on Charlie. she is so obsessed with her vision of being a good pesron and what they entails that..... she overlooks what she can do for angel. Crush valentino under her heel until he yields angel's soul.
Another messed up thing is that angel dust keeps catcalling and flirting with husk, something he has shown many times as NOT OKAY, and yet it’s written to be something to laugh at but when it comes to angel dusk we are meant to feel empathy. The show wants husk and angel to be together when their friendship already is toxic as can be.
THIS!!! This is my biggest GRIP on the climax of Angel's ep, where Angem run off after Husk rejected him. Like, why is Husk being treated like the one at fault despite it being Angel's fault??? (The climax of Angel's episode). It's frustrating for me ugh, atleast let Angel apologize for making Husk uncomfortable.
@@divine555 Yeah it's not as bad as Valentino but what Angel is doing is SEXUALLY HARRASSING HUSK. Just because he's not as bad as Val doesn't mean his actions are suddenly okay, I can't even believe that has to be explain. One's pain doesn't INVALIDATE your actions.
@@AUCreatoer the fact you consider basic flirting as harrassment is hysterical 💀 all angel did was flirt with husk, he definitely shouldn't have gotten mad by the final no but you have to remember that once someone says no you can *never* have another chance with them, so while he shouldn't have yelled at husk the feeling he felt was valid, as well as husk rejecting angel since he's not interested in him, though angel merely flirting with husk was not a issue 😂 maybe go flirt snd you'll be less of a prude
@@divine555 ?? Yeah it's flirting but Husk made it CLEAR that he was uncomfortable with it, that's what sexual harrassment is wtf are u on about? Also, multiple times Angel breaks Husk boundaries with his flirting despite MULTIPLE times being told NO. I'm atleast glad you know that Husk feelings was valid, that nice ig.
I'm sorry for all the hate you're getting on Twitter for this. Thank you for speaking out on this topic and giving many people comfort and hope with this video. 💖
@@Thesilliestgoose1 Hopefully the wave of hate has stoppes by now, but the screenshots and tweets OP was getting was downright evil. I sincerely hope that the rabid stans have moved on by now.
What needs to be understood about Angel Dust is that he is an abuse fantasy, not a character that realistically depicts the abused. He is a teenagers romantic fantasy rather than an examination of a social issue. This show should not be taken as a healthy portrayal of anything. The creator is a talented but severely warped individual.
as a victim of father trauma (and sexual exploitation trauma in general). i absolutely despise how much vivsie tries to make "daddy issues" and "uwu so traumatised" a quirky personality trait.
Unfortunately it's an ongoing thing on the internet. You can almost call it a trend. I don't think people even know what's wrong but it has always been there for years so I wouldn't really blame creators but the audience in general since apparently it sells pretty well. Lotsa love
Father trauma is so much better than “daddy issues.” Makes it sound like the serious problem it actually is. We need to start calling it father trauma instead of “daddy issues”
As I heard someone say once, Vivzie isn't a writer, she's an oc creator Edit: Obviously you can be both and I really don't want people to feel discouraged to write!! But imo you need a slightly different mindset for 'I'm gonna post a few animations and backstory docs' and 'this will be a larger series on Amazon' and that's what I'm talking about
This is what I remind myself whenever I feel the urge to write something. Besides that, I absolutely hate books because they're way too cryptic with stupid words and I'm no professional so I wouldn't know how to not make a simpler one repetitive. And I am NOT drawing a whole ass manga rn lmao
fuck yes, this. ^ nothing wrong with having a little fun with characters you make.. but if you make em public, at least.. you know, make them not a complete stereotype. Id love it if they could have real, meaningful stories, or dive into the impact of trauma.. but alas, she’s not a writer.
that's what she Is. we've seen her history on RUclips and what she would work with where mostly speedpaints of her ocs, short animations with music without context and stuff. Vizie was never a writter and i doubt she specialized even a single bit for this.
Exactly my thoughts. She's good at creating a very colourful cast of characters but seems to miss the mark when it comes to fleshing them out or giving them fulfilling character arcs.
i hate when people say "so sa survivors cant have fun?" life as an sa survivor should not be bleak 24/7 but his glamour and shit is so obviously made in a fetishistic way
I think Vivzie and her fans don't understand that bottoms can be predatory too... Angel and Stolas are treated like they did nothing wrong, and their constant SA towards others isn't depicted as harmful. And Stolas... oh my god. The way they twisted his original concept, ending up getting the show being entirely around the Stolitz drama that changes over and over. We can literally clearly see Vivziepop's fetishist feelings that drove her beyond common sense. Thinking with your duck writing a show is unprofessional.
This is just a simple question out of curiosity but what exactly did Angel do wrong with his business with Valentino that made him predatory too? Was there something I missed or were you just bringing him up as a potential thing? Stolas’ case is dead obvious. I’m glad it seems like more people are exposing him as hypocritical rather than supporting him
As a top who thought he was a bottom for a long time. I thought I was one from the day I learned about them but turns out I was just being severely abused by my ex girlfriend. So I want everyone to know that I fucked up the terms and I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them. Bottoms are victims or at least can be.
I'm an asexual SA victim who suffers from hypersexuality In my personal experience with it, it's really more of a compulsive urge to objectify yourself than an actual desire to engage sexually with another individual I know it isn't the same for everyone but when I do engage in hypersexual behaviors after the feeling has passed I feel intense guilt and remorse as it almost feels like I was useing someone and/or falling back into old habits I have yet to see any guilt, remorse, or punishment for Angel, literally sexually harassing other men I clarify that I am asexual as it may influence the particular amount of guilt I feel for being hypersexual
Thank you for talking about this. I'm also acearo and sadly I suffer from hypersexuality, including horrible and painful unwantrd groinal responses :'( I barely find people with the same case as mine.
Fellow asexual person, who suffered from childhood sexualization and gained hypersexuality due to it, it was absolutely my own coping method to try and feel like I was taking back control from all the ways I was degraded over the years. I made shitty mistakes during that time, and with a great partner, therapy, and time to all help me heal, my hypersexuality went away, and I can safely reflect on my issues without debilitating sense of guilt dragging me back down.
I wouldn’t say you feel more guilt just because it’s your sexuality. I’m straight, and went through intensive guilt. Suicidal depression. My hyper-sexuality was awakened when I was a child due to my own trauma. And my guilt stems from the images I would imagine with the very person who assaulted me. That being said, I was assaulted by the same person for years. I believe the level of guilt is different for others, and not directly on one point. But more so a situational thing. In general, the reason I bring this up to you and to any other person who reads this thread - It is not your fault. What happened to you has never been your fault. Your reaction to it does not make you gross, or a horrible person. It can be hard to move past, but you are not alone.
Wow this is actually the first time I've heard another asexual person talk about their experience with hypersexuality and SA. I feel much of the same way.
@@Sheik-yo9fjI completely understand, I struggle so badly with hypersexuality and groinal responses despite being ace and it's terrible. You're not alone.
thank you for making this video! my oc is a survivor of sa and i'm always worried if writing him as such would come off as disrespectful bc i've never expirienced nothing like that. but watching this video, i understood, that my writing for this oc is actually good and i can sleep calmly
Of course I’m happy to help. One of the things I’ve found to be extremely helpful when it comes to creating representation is to get advice from someone you are trying to represent
As a csa survivor, I actually find it a bit annoying when people “tack on” sexual trauma to their characters unless specifically for awareness purposes, because it’s not just another thing to add on mindlessly to make your character more traumatized and “quirky”. Not to say that it’s not okay at all, but that’s just my opinion on the matter and I fully respect other opinions as well :)
@@skeleton_in_a_cowboy_hat no, I totally get your opinion and agree with it! Honestly, I was really worried that it could come off as "trauma for the sake of trauma", and I don't want it to be just that. I see a lack of good representation of male sa victims in media, and I want my character to be at least a better representation
Nobody ever mentions how strange it is that Valentino is meant to be irredeemable because he assaulted Angel but he’s also one of the main side characters who gets funny one liners, a scene kissing Vox, a song, and a design everyone says they love, are we meant to hate him or not
@@obama6770 Even though he is a character, whether we like it or not, fictional characters end up influencing people. The normalization of the actions of a character, like Valentino, ends up bringing thoughts like: "If (name of fictional character) likes it, then it must be good." Another thing is fetishes, if you watch a lot of content that is not very cool, and that normalizes this only in fiction, such as rape, gore, etc. Exposure to this type of content can generate a fetish about it, and the more you watch, the more the fetish will grow, to the point where you will have the desire to do it in real life.
i find it disturbing that you have to tell the Internet that you were SA'd in order for your opinion on fictional SA to be valid. im not doubting you at all, im just disappointed that one needs to admit such things to be heard.
Exactly. Do people forget the meme: "Do you think someone would do that? Go on the internet and tell lies?" They'll use that to make fun of something, likr a lie on the internet, then a random user goes: "As a vet....." And they have 5 K likes.
@@Wolf_Blob Because in today's society, you can't be alive but you can survive. Unrelated but however. Acceptance of minorities has been warped into minorities demanding to be accepted which in turn makes people less acceptant. An infinite cycle of hate for each other who is different. I, myself do not care what kind of person you are, as long as you are a person who is kind.
I dont wanna be a "well if the roles were reversed.." guy but i feel like angel dusts portrayal of sa wouldnt be praised as much if he was a woman. Thats not to say that female victims of abuse have it easier or are represented better but i think if people saw him as a woman itd be easier for them to recognise how stereotypically written he is.
@@carrot7911a lot of that is thanks to societal standards and the assumption that it’s impossible for a man to be a victim of sexual abuse. The whole reason why the statistic for male victims of abuse being an underestimate is because so many don’t report it because of that standard put in place. Society views men as being weak and that they weren’t strong enough to not get abused
@@LimusTSlime God, exactly. Male SA victims are so underrepresented and very often ignored/dismissed because of this belief that men can't be assaulted, and when it isn't because people believe men are just strong enough to fight off the assaulter (which ignores that coercion and getting SA'd in your sleep exists), it's because of this belief that men always want sex, which is just as damaging, especially when you're an asexual man, such as myself.
@@LimusTSlimeso men are being told that masculinity is bad, but at the same time men are supposed to just “deal with it” or “man up” when they are raped or abused? What the hell is this world coming to man 😔
What annoys me about the show is how edgy it tries being. Because “They’re in hell and they’re supposed to be as vulgar as possible.” It makes all the characters one dimensional. There’s like three character types in the whole show. With the exception of Alastor cause he’s the most interesting and well thought out character. I think that’s how we got to the bad abuse rep. Because Vivzie is so focused on the concept of these characters being demons in hell, she makes Angel extremely vulgar and sexual, and then plays it off as him being an abuse victim. And I understand that real SA victims can be hyper sexual as a way to cope with the trauma. But Angel feels like a caricature of that. I can bet that most SA victims that use sexuality to cope, still don’t act nearly as sexual as angel. I also don’t believe many pornstars just go around moaning in their day to day lives for no reason. Or harass people by saying nasty shit to them. He’s way too exaggerated and it makes his whole character seem like a joke.
@ literally. Like South Park knows how to be funny and edgy. The jokes in Hazbin are just overused sex jokes. They’re completely uncreative. I’m convinced Vivziepop never left the tumblr phase. Cause this show is something a depressed teen on tumblr would write
This is one of the best comments here , if they only had that excuse for all the swearing and adult jokes it’ll be fine , but no , they do it with everything
Im not in LGBTQ+, but Im a male victim who had a very very similar experience to Angel Dust with older women. Although I see myself in him at times, I seriously dislike how fetishized the trauma is, I couldnt put my finger particularly on why I hated it so much, but you perfectly described everything wrong with Angel Dust's "representation." Great video! I feel heard. and Glad you're with us. Ive never seen the channel before.
Fans when Stolas uses Blitz for s3x: WOOOO! NOBODY GIVES A SH1T! Fans when Verosika SA’s Moxxie, who is a *married* man: WOOOO! NOBODY GIVES A SH1T! Fans when Sir Pentious gets SA’d despite screaming ‘No!’ multiple times: WOOOO! NOBODY GIVES A SH1T! Fans when Valentino abuses Angel: 😭😡😤😖😫
I watched the show and I was disappointed that Sir Pentious was treated as a joke My man deserves a better treatment than being the punching bag He was literally assulted, saying 'no' all over like goddam, Vivienne? Aren't your another oc ( Angel Dust ) who got treated like this and you're making it serious but what about Sir Pentious??? ( And Moxie )
Although I am not a sexual assault victim, I can absolutely see why angel’s writing is bad. I am neurodivergent and hate it when I see shows stereotype ADHD and autism, I have although been severely manipulated by someone, and if a show handled that topic with a techno pop music video I would be pissed. edit: I get that you can handle these things with bright music, but may I remind you the scenes were storyboarded by someone with a rape fetish, that's what especially weird. I get that its masking the pain and whatever but I feel like "loser baby" puts the cherry on top. Saying "oh yeah your abused, but your not special, a lot of people are abused". It shows that they probably didn't put much thought into it.
I am not any sort of Survivor of any sort of thing, but this is genuinely Crazy. You could make the song have techno pop and meaning while making it gutwrenching, however it's pretty hard, so unless you know what your doing... Two ways to NOT do it is 1) Make it very dancylike even after the meaning is shown.. 2)show some sad scenes, and have the victims dance to it like kpop idols. Ik it's not similar, but to put it into image, imagine 911 survivors dancing to the Destruction of the building, in a kpop happy style with the happiest faces. Do take my opinion with a grain of salt though.
The music video seen was meant to be Angel Dust’s mask for how he feels about it, remember the ending of that song where he says “filling up my glass but it’s always hollow” that’s a reference to in the song when he tries to make it seem like he’s happy about it, some even pointed out it looks from the visuals like he’s almost disassociating from the situations he’s in. My bigger issue with Angel Dust is how his job was joked about in that way in the other episodes, considering what we know it’s not fair to joke about it like that. (this is as a fan of the show) and *especially* that scene with Pentious. It would’ve been more funny if people around looked at him and raised an eyebrow and he was like “not… really” instead of the horrific implications of that scene.
i was raped when i was twelve. MULTIPLE TIMES. not getting into details but i remember feeling rly down and decided to watch hazbin hotel again. when i saw angel dust's 'backround story' i was beyond disgusted. ty in the name of all rape/SA victims for bringing this to everyones attention
When you consider that the first character, Alastor, was created by Vivzie when she was in high school, a lot of the weird shit about this show starts to make sense. The fact every character dresses like the Onceler, the over abundance of cursing and bad sex jokes, the tone-deaf girly-pop music; these are all things that high schoolers think are cool. This show started from the mind of a high schooler but never grew out of the mind of a high schooler.
To be fair, characters you create in your childhood can be further developed/changed over time. I have several characters that I created when I was in high school that have gone through various changes and reworks as I got better at story telling/character design.
@@alternatewhale4996 Yeah, evolving the characters/ideas over time is very important. The mistake a lot of creators make is letting their high school nostalgia define their characters, instead of letting the ideas mature.
The thing about Angel Dust is that on paper, he’s good representation. Hypersexuality is a common trauma response and shouldn’t be treated with disgust. Some people use sex as a means to cope with their trauma. Men, especially gay men, are often not properly treated/represented. Porn stars are often trapped in their position. The main issue I have is not only the stereotyping, but the fact Angel Dust IS an abuser himself. He constantly disrespects people’s boundaries and flirts even if it’s made obvious it’s not wanted. This gives the impression that the show is saying “yeah, he constantly makes ppl uncomfortable and is a terrible person, but look what happened to him!” Trauma isn’t an excuse to traumatize other people. It’s understandable to lash out, to get defensive, etc. but knowingly making people uncomfortable and sexually harassing them has no excuse to it. Angel Dust had so much potential but was so horribly written.
Yeah, like I think he's allowed to have that flaw of not respecting others boundaries as long as the narrative treats it like a flaw and he gets actual character development but no one ever calls him out for his behavior and the narrative picks and chooses what type of harassment is funny and what isn't
In a vaccuum him harassing others could be a flaw that works, and knowing his backstory we can understand why he does it, it wouldnt be too out of question for an SA victim to do that, especially when they were never taught about boundaries and may deem what happened to them as normal. But its not treated as a flaw that needs correction and hurts others, its more treated as a joke, plus he seems quite aware of what he is doing. He doesnt get told off on his behaviour, which for some characters could be in character, but surely somebody would say something
most people who abuse are abused themselves, however, trauma is no excuse to harm others. Angel Dust as a character only comes across as a tone-deaf representation of an "SA" character.
I feel like Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3 is a much better representation of that mix of characteristics(even tho he's canon bi\pan), than the "gay harasser stereotype tehehe" Angel Dust character will ever be. Astarion's hypersexuality as both a cope and protection mechanism is explored in a much more realistic and 3 dimensional way, even the way he flirts works better.
It isn't even stereotyping though like there are real people that are like that, and no Angel Dust isn't an abuser himself. Sexual Harassment isn't abuse though. The show knows that trauma isn’t an excuse to traumatize other people and it calls him out too. Nah he was well written really.
Hazbin Hotel is weird. I felt the Piolet (the one on with the OG cast) brought so much potential, thinking it was going to be a catroon dealing with ethical delemas, especially with Angeldust, but then the show came out kinda dropped all the intrigue and care for popsongs and shock humor jokes
@@TimmyTheTinman Rushed, haphazardly written, poorly underdeveloped and badly written characters, too many plot points for one season, double standardized jokes (such as SA), and for me personally, barely-decent character designs.
Glad I'm not the only one who had a sour taste in my mouth after seeing those compilations of Angel Dust "slaying", when said slaying is just him harassing everyone. I thought we were over glorifying sexual harassment in fandom spaces, guys
I'm a survivor of csa myself, but personally, I had a very different interpretation of Angel, Poison and Loser, Baby. (This is purely for the sake of discussion, I'm not trying to invalidate any feelings or say that any one interpretation is correct and admittedly I got carried away because I actually really like analyzing things lol) Angel's entire character revolves around convincing himself that if he uses his persona and body and becomes what everyone says he is, then he is actually in control of his life and choices so he doesn't feel as helpless as he actually is. Poison is the shiny facade. The fact that it disconnects from the visuals is the point. Angel is telling himself he's addicted to this lifestyle but is telling himself this as he's being r*ped. Believing that it's his fault is an unhealthy coping mechanism. I feel like this is especially clear in the 'yes, Valentino' scene. It's one of the darkest scenes both tonally and visually and is directly connected to Angel having a lack of choice so explicit that there's no way he can spin it into anything else. The point of Loser, Baby isn't for Husk to tell Angel to 'stop being a whiny baby', it's to extend a hand and provide a support network without completely shattering the illusion of control Angel has built for himself. He's shown that he rebels against gentler forms of encouragement so Husk saying "okay, well even if it is all your fault and you put yourself in this situation, you still have people who care and a network" was a starting point. Angel has sealed himself off in a bubble of his own design, crafting his personality and actions to be what's expected of him. In this way, you could say he's not ready to truly face reality yet, which is why he can't really be compared to the song from Rent, which is all about someone accepting his mortality and wanting to leave an impact. Angel's just not at the point of acceptance in his development.
I'm glad you found enjoyment in the show! I do disagree with a lot of this but I'm not gonna be telling you what to think or how to view my video. Im glad you at least gave it a watch. Keep surviving :)
Damn, this is how I interpreted it. Sometimes I do believe people need to show some aggressive care(whatever that's called). Because saying things like "you're worthy of love," and all that nice stuff can fall flat for a character like Angel who's stubborn and arrogant. I can say this because I've noticed this about myself where I'm more inclined to listen and be more grounded when people don't entirely reject the idea that I'm a "bad person." Because I can be a bad person to myself and others, it's not hard to see. Sometimes people just want support. Someone who'd accept you no matter what you go through and what you do as a result of it. Because the response to the trauma is a part of me now, and I know it's bad. But I want someone to understand, instead of trying to forcefully pull me out of it. And maybe, I can recover in my own pace. This is what I assume "Loser, Baby" was about. It's the first step of recovery and forgiveness. Accepting the harsh truth and finding a better perspective. Cause being alone and dealing with your trauma, undoubtedly, one of the worst experiences... Although, Husk's abuse isn't really shown in the show. I guess it has more to do with the feeling that you lack control over your own body and choices. And that's what they both relate to.
Yeah I definitely took it as a "I can't fix this and it sucks ass, but I'm here with you and you're not alone." It's just the character's communication style to be a bit tongue in cheek about it
@@LimusTSlime I despise people like you, I have experienced sexual abuse, if I wasn't in therapy I would act be acting nearly exactly like angel dust.
I interpreted it in a similar way, although I will say the execution could've been improved a LOT I watched the show with my partner and I think that episode (mostly that song) was the only time I felt any real strong emotion, as someone who's been SAd and taken advantage of multiple times, it felt better than just, having a character pity and almost baby Angel, if that makes sense?? It's hard for me to phrase
Bro as someone who was a CSA victim who DID deal with hyper sexuality, Angel Dust is an insanely offensive character to me. It’s not that he’s sexualizing himself, it’s that he is actively victimizing others around him and gets NO punishment for it! He gets one episode to sing a little song about how aww he’s just a victim, and CONTINUES to sexually harass his “friends”… plus he’s grating to the senses to watch, I genuinely hate him
But I will say, VERY unpopular opinion, pleeease be nice to me 😭one of the storyboard artists having a non con fetish doesn’t bother me. It’s their business tbh, it doesn’t make them a reprehensible person. I think the graphic scenes of Angel Dust being raped is INSANE, and unnecessary, horrifically fetishized, and the techno colour pop music doesn’t help, AND think it is weird someone with a rape kink was primarily working on it, AND ALSO having the fetish itself is whatever, non-con play is more common than people think, and if it’s between two consenting adults, idgaf
@@pleaseignoreme2946hit the nail on its head i think. people's sexual interests dont reflect their morals, you can absolutely have a noncon fetish while realizing how serious the subject matter is and paying respects to that, depicting it in a responsible way. that storyboarder is just a bad apple
@pleaseignoreme2946 The fact you said rape kink is already raising some huge ass red flags since when was anything not happening without you're consent hot and shit like that's very weird
@@Jump-Shack meh, it’s especially empowering for victim’s to regain a sense of control back. More people have it than you’d think, especially women. I really don’t see the big deal when you can re-enact it in a safe way with a consenting partner. Fetishes aren’t in your control and are sometimes unexplainable, it’s just psychology
Hey bud, for as much as it means to you, I hope you'll feel better. Or at least less awful, if that's more correct. I'm not going to act like I understand what you're going through, but I will say I've seen a friend's life get destroyed because of the same reasons. And it tore my heart out, and your video tears my heart out too. In your voice lines, sometimes, you sound like breaking down a little, and I hope you're doing better now. Whatever your story is, whatever you feel, *please* know that you deserve love, and are loved by those around you. I wish you the best, I really do.
Musicals can write SA and have upbeat pop songs. Six showed us with All You Wanna Do, but even then the actress playing Kathrine Howard was crying and not literally dancing like in other numbers
As a teen, I was physically, emotionally neglected and emotionally abused. When hazbin hotel fully released, my friends kept telling me to watch hazbin and I eventually did and I fucking hated it because of how it portrayed coping with abuse/sexual abuse, because I had my unhealthy coping mechanisms (won’t disclose them) and I publicly said my disliking for portraying coping/abuse, and I got hated on twitter/X for having a opinion as someone who was abused/neglected
I'm really sorry for what happened to you, I hope you're doing great. It okay to not like Hazbin Hotel, I mean I hate it for the same reasons like you and many more (How it basically mishandles mature themes and comes off as incredibly disrespectful.). Sometimes I just feel like Hazbin Hotel is a fundamentally toxic show and a trap that most people fall into if they want to watch something that can relate to them and make them feel better. My ex-girlfriend is a huge fan of the show while I despise it. She has unhealthy coping mechanisms too (she experienced some form of sexual harassment in the past). To me this show is a personification of giving into unhealthy habits.
great video ! i'm also someone who has experienced sexual abuse and angel dust has always felt a little weird to me as a character. your commentary really articulates the issues with his him well. i also felt his arc per sé was a little rushed, hh could've definitely benefitted from a few more episodes
I’m really happy I was able to get my points across well. There are things I do love about the show (Lucifer and sir pentious) but Angel dust really disappointed me because when I first saw the pilot in 2019, I was expecting him to be my favorite going in when he ended up being the reason is too red watching. I do hope a second season fixes these issues
@@LimusTSlime i was a really big fan of angel and hh when it pilot came out, yet i was put off by how they seemed to change angel to be more mean spirited in the series, i like him way better in the pilot also same goes to you. i hope you're in a good place with people who appreciate you. never stop fighting either
@@LimusTSlime Hi Linus , I’ve got a question for you , do you think that Vivziepop is an awful person for writing Angel , I’m not debating , just asking
Can some of you please stop harassing Limus over their video, its their personal thoughts and feelings over this subject and they’re valid to them. You don’t have to come bombarding them with hate.
@feliaya11 Looks like the show's manipulation is working. I really hope it gets booted off the face of the planet, for all the harm it's causing to such a young and impressionable audience. Just because a favorite character of some young child has an unhealthy coping mechanism, doesn't mean the child should copy it. It will only do harm. Undoubtedly, the child would've never developed that behavior to begin with, if they never saw it being used in such a glorified way on their favorite show. Remember kids; unhealthily coping isn't okay, forget the ideology that this show pushes, please try either therapy or seek other coping mechanisms. This message is not intended to shame, or offend, I simply want to guide you in a better direction and hopefully improve on your life, I don't like seeing young kids' lives being ruined early because of a behavior such as this. I hope you can find some help from a lover or a therapist. Spoken from someone who has has unhealthily coped due to S/A and abuse, and has been guided out of that mindset over the course of 2 long years by the help of my girlfriend / soon-to-be wife.
Ty for saying you don’t owe anybody an explanation of being assaulted. So many people feel entitled to an explanation, but it’s a very touchy subject, and as a victim of SA myself, it can be uncomfortable having to explain what happened over and over again. Also defending someone that has a rape fetish is actually insane when representing SA, incredibly tone deaf 😭😭😭
I honestly have a horrible compulsion to explain what happened to me in detail because I feel like a liar if I just say "I'm a CSA survivor" and I'm always terrified people won't take me seriously because what happened to me was COCSA. I hate it, because sometimes I wanna vent about what happened to friends or anonymously online but then I feel the need to just explain everything or else I won't be taken seriously unless they know the full story. I'm getting better with it now, but I still feel shame saying stuff like "I'm a CSA survivor" unless I explain exactly what happened or else I feel like I'm somehow lying or exaggerating even though every mental health professional I've explained my trauma to said it was CSA and even the police took it seriously (which they normally don't in my area)
As a victim, poison was traumatic, I honestly don't know how you can see it as glamorized. To me, the dancing was Angel dissociating and trying to escape the pain he is in, being r*ped for a living. The upbeat music was him trying to cope and try to make himself feel better. Masquerade was hard to watch, extremely painful as a victim because it hit so close to home. I literally became addicted to the ab*se. That feeling felt like I had been poisoned. I craved being ab*sed even though I hated it. These conflicting experiences exist. That's what poison expresses. Angels conflict with drugs, sex, and valentino; literal poison. It wasn't a fetish/fetishistic to me. My issue is it could've been better explored in and fleshed out more than in 1 ep. It felt very rushed to me, and I think it deserves more care and attention.
Yeah. The writing is incredibly flawed. But I don't think having "upbeat music" when talking about a tramautic scenario is really that bad? Maybe I'm just too used to Vocaloid, because they be talking about gruesome child abuse with upbeat and ironically childish music. The differences is tone is meant to be eerie and off-putting, not fetishizing victims.
@@stooroosk as a vocaloid listener myself (for example kikuo, gomene gomene), the thing is- those songs are actually CREEPY. It gives off the vibe of the happy music not being real, at least for me. Meanwhile from what I've seen, Poison.. doesn't. Especially not with the dancing. It should've been shown better idk.
@@zaytaz9331adding on, “candy house” sung by kasane teto is another example. its specifically deals with SA and being “addicted” in a way to it. i must warn you though the lyrics are incredibly graphic
As a fellow victim of sexual abuse I do find him quite relatable because sometimes you are indeed like that. You hypersexualise yourself ,you cope with it poorly ,you make the most inappropriate jokes and comments ever ,you accept being objectified. It’s a complicated journey and I believe sometimes it does indeed look like that
as someone who’s hypersexual due to autism (yep, autism can cause hypersexuality in some cases), I don’t like the way Angel was depicted to ignore boundaries, but aside from that, he sometimes can be relatable, but I do wish he had more personality, cause I try to bury it underneath my weird obsessions and not make intimacy my main interest (at least in front of others.) I tend to channel it into drawings to prevent myself from acting on it, but if I didn’t do that I probably would be worse than Angel.
@chaoscreature you are incredibly right for saying this, as someone with hypersexually and autism, most of the time I bury those thoughts by believing if I do, watch, or even draw certain things but keep it to myself, it's completely okay because I'm not acting it out fully, but it's not, and I've been doing things that have helped me, like I haven't went on a p... site in over 2 years and I just recently deleted Twitter of my device. But angel does none of that, he expresses and shows it as a way to cope.
I thought it was more the messages around his behavior show a lack of maturity/awareness in depicting issues of abuse. Like making his hypersexuality/drug use a constant gag reel, like it is supposed to be irreverent, and then turning it around and making it tragic with underlying abuse, but also fetishizing that abuse guised as irreverence, with only a thin veneer of substance about real issues people deal with.
As much as I love Hazbin Hotel, I completely agree here. I also think that Angel's SA storyline being a justification for him sexually harassing other characters is tone-deaf, and frankly, unacceptable. I know too many people who think their trauma defines them and is thus a justification for their actions when it's not, it's only an explanation.
This is the most well spoken commentary on Angel Dust and the underlying issues with his character. As a sexual assault victim, I coped in similar ways to him, but something about how he was represented felt… off. I genuinely had to stop watching because I almost had a panic attack at the Poison music video. (Despite personally enjoying the song and feeling seen through the lyrics.) That being said, I do love Hazbin Hotel and I enjoy Angel as a character, but I agree that there are big issues with how he is written. Props to you for speaking up about it!!
I had a similar experience throughout the show , but finding characters portraying hypersexuality is just so hard . Angel is by far not the best written but he's what we have :/ Anyways I wish u a great day buddy
@@S.I.U. Maybe one day we'll be able to look back and say: "Yes this is kind of a bad portrayal, but it paved the way for better portrayals that didn't have a fetishiser(s) on the creative team". If nothing else, the discussion that Angel Dust provokes is useful.
As a gay guy who is a victim of SA, I can say without a doubt that how Angel Dust acts outside of "work" is just a front, or a persona, that he uses to not get hurt more. He acts that way because he knows people already look down on him for being in the porn business and being a slut, so the persona he uses is to make it seem like that's all he is as to not get hurt anymore. That's why Husk was able to see through the rouse, and that's also why when Sir Pentious was being praised after the skit, Angel looked so upset and hurt- he genuinely wants to get better, but it's hard to when his soul is owned by one of the worst overlords in hell/his biggest abuser, and with the front he's been using, it keeps those trying to help him at bay and out of reach to actually do anything to save him. I'm not trying to start arguments, but this is just my perspective on the show coupled with my own experience, as I have 100% made a persona similar to help cope with the pain and not be hated for who I actually am, and it took me a few years to break that after I got away from my own abuser. Other people cope differently, but the way that Angel has been is a lot like my own experience with this subject. Feel free to reply to this with your own take on it as I'm open to seeing new perspectives, I'm not looking for hate or to bring others down, I'm keeping an open mind and encourage anyone who reads this to share their thoughts.
i completely agree with this! angel is putting on a persona like this TO AVOID GETTING HURT. i can assume val only likes angel when he’s acting the way he does. even though he can be aggressive, he is also manipulative. from the voice messages, it’s clear. maybe Angel thinks that’s the only way people will actually like him and get praise from others, because of Val being the way he is. he genuinely wants to get better but i assume he’s been working for val for a while or long enough to forget real and genuine care. the thing is people thing he is instant going to get better. one, no. he’s been like this for years and it will take him a while to adjust to this completely new lifestyle of “being good? Or “being clean” because being all messed up would be encouraged by Val. and two, it’s rushed BECAUSE there are other plot lines and there are only 8 episodes. sorry for the rant but just wanted to get that off my chest anyways. i completely agree! everyone has different ways of coping.
@@mikunakanonenderoid I love your view on this as well! Thank you for giving your feedback, it's really nice to get other's opinions on Angel Dust as a character and how his life affects how he acts towards everything. Your words were really insightful, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comment ^^ Also, I love your profile picture!
Yes but it's done horrifically bad, that's the issue. And the context itself of his life, the seriousness is so heavy out of nowhere then they destroy it by making him actively constantly joke about it. Yet we HAVE to cry for this asshole when he gets sad. Balance it out Viv!
Sure. 1) Never do we get to see that. 2) We never see him start to get even slightly better 3) A romantic relationship is the cure to sexual trauma and not the worst fucking thing you can ever do to yourself or another person when you are that fucking deep in denial.
no no, you’re on fire keep talking. I’m in the same boat, thought process, experience/orientation and all. Its just a faux self to stay safe-i think that was relatively a (dare i say good) decent part of what little writing they had. the explanation (to husk) was rather rushed, but what isn’t in life? and being rushed, you could feel he was overwhelmed. and when he broke? felt that too. compared to all the other stereotypes they gave angel, this one was for sure the least damaging (gay/sa survivor rep in media..) it wasn’t perfect, could’ve been wayyy better.. but what’s perfect anyways. sorry for the rant, i just really felt for what you were talking about.
Thank you for mentioning RENT! I’m a CSA survivor myself and I think it is disgusting how it’s handled in Hazbin Hotel. Like, I do believe to SOME extent that the concept of Angel having a soul contract where he can’t consent being a symbolism is a decent representation, but poison absolutely ruins this. I think a better representation of SA is a musical by the name of Spring Awakening. In it, a young girl, Wendla, falls in love with someone by the name of Melchior. The problem is, Wendla has no idea about the concept of sex. Because of this, Melchior goes on to assault her. This is also shown through a song, but the song is low and grimy, it truly shows how horrible this is. Poison is insensitive to the way it shows SA because it uses this super upbeat music during such a cruel situation. Thank you for pointing this out, you deserve so much more credit!
I think the reason Poison is so "upbeat" is because Angel Dust is projecting or faking a lot of positivity for his image. I'd say it's that facade that breaks towards the end of the song and during "loser, baby". His positivity and flirtyness is probably a persona he puts on to deal with his situation and suppress unfavourable emotions. This is something some real people go through too, and so I find discrediting that entirely mildly problematic, though you're still allowed to disagree. I honestly never found the song to be upbeat, moreso an expression of misery badly masked as a dance song, especially with the lyrics. That's sorta the feeling it gives me. I still think they could've executed it better, though. The music _video_ is an absolute atrocity, and there I completely agree that it is just... unnaceptable.
@@cruellasdog I don’t consider aggressively dancing while getting r8ped is the best coping mechanism…. But I definitely get the, “Poisons upbeat song is used as a coping mechanism” thing….I just think the video is a bit weird.
Like, i know gay men who r like this!! Exenstialists are the philosophers beleives that there is no escence that defines u, that u "become" a woman, a man, a queer person, a person of color, etc. They beleived these identities where assigned onto people and are social constructed. They started analysing media and the impacts it had on how people learned what "being [blank] means". And IT IS IMPERATIVE TO UNDERSTAND that the analysis was not a moral framework, and the issue only comes when the TOTALITY of media represents bad stereotypes. Like, i embody a few trans stereotypes, does that mean i should hide myself in order to prevent the cis people from "getting the wrong idea"? NO!! Like that infuriated me, there are barely any points in this video i actually agreed with
The fucked up thing is that like 90% of the way to fix this problem is to just remove poison and like... 50% of his coming-on-to-others in the latter half of the runtime. Maybe have him stand up for Sir Pentious and not let him get assaulted either? Yknow. Have him be a little bit better now that he has a friend and a support system?
as a queer and trans male victim of SA, i honestly have a love hate relationship with angel. i really like poison, and i feel like it did an alright job with portraying angel's feelings and experiences with Valentino, but i don't really like his character (mainly because of the gay stereotyping and the rushed character arc) and i feel like him in the pilot was way less sexualized and more of a likeable character.
I lost Vizzypop's respect for calling out her attempt to emulate South Park's style by excessively using profanity and sex jokes in a desperate bid to sound humorous. What's truly sad is that she fails to grasp the concept behind South Park's humor, which, despite its crudeness, often stems from good intentions. Instead of trying to replicate their style, she could have stuck to her own unique voice and ideas. By copying South Park's brand of humor, delivery, and disregard for traditional storytelling, she ends up creating disjointed, "do whatever you want" type of episodes that abandon the original narrative, much like the pilots that have been forgotten.
The whole point of South Park's swears is that they are children and often talking about things they don't understand and thats where the comedy comes from. In Hazbin Hotel theres no point to it theres no comedy attatched they are just expecting you to laugh at the swear itself
As a victim of SA, seeing people cosplaying and dancing to scenes like poison which depicts rape-genuinely makes me feel sick. It's disheartening how many people fail to grasp the weight of this kind of trauma. It's rare to find shows or movies that portray SA with sensitivity or realism. (Baby Reindeer is one I'd highly recommend.) More often than not, it's downplayed or treated lightly, rather than exploring the true emotional and psychological turmoil survivors endure. We really need to call out not just Hazbin, but other shows and films that are blatantly disrespectful when it comes to handling this subject (GOT, Peaky Blinders, 13 Reasons Why, Blonde, etc.) Writers should never feel entitled to depict SA so graphically when they havent experienced it themselves. If they had experienced anything like it, they wouldn’t present it so casually or exploitatively. What makes it worse is that many scripts seem to display an unsettling attraction to the opposite sex when writing about SA survivors-this applies to both male and female writers. It’s as if they include SA in their narratives either for shock value, or worse, for some twisted sense of gratification. A character like Angel Dust reeks of this kind of fetishization. I can’t believe how others haven’t noticed how blatant it is. By far, the biggest issue with how SA is portrayed in media, using Angel Dust as an example, is the tendency to treat it as just a label/character trait. SA is not a personality trait. It's a deeply painful experience that someone is forced to endure, and it comes with lifelong emotional and psychological scars. Many writers seem to lack the empathy or understanding to represent that reality authentically. They treat SA as a plot device, rather than recognizing the very real, complex aftermath it leaves behind.
@darkvioletcloud the world building in it is God tier, and it's an amazing anime, but only if you can look past the fact that the author of the Manga is like really obviously a pedophile
The thing that makes me mad about Hazbin Hotel is how it paints abuse as something that's just ok and can be used for jokes. Male abuse especially is something we can't joke about. Male abuse and women abuse are equally bad but the one thing about male abuse that's worse than the experience a woman can have is how men can't find help as easily as a woman. From the abuse being played off by others to people just not believing the abused. Both straight and gay men can be sexually abused and I'm tired of media either ignoring the issue, or downplaying it so much it causes my stomach to churn. I have always felt this way about abuse despite never going through it, though I know others that have and even ended themselves over it. I refuse to just let another person be ignored like that. I wasn't enough to help them and when I did report their issues to other people most played it off or told them to man up. Great video. It explains how exactly I feel about angel dust.
My ex-girlfriend was completely obsessed with this show, loves it to pieces, teared up during Masquerade. I watched it with her when it came out because I wanted to be supportive, but MAN it was tough to watch basically any scene with Angel Dust as a gnc (now gay) man who has suffered abuse. We're still on good terms, so I wouldn't tell her this to her face, but whooo boy.
thank you for making this video!! its incredibly informative :] it's such a shame that people [like vivziepop] don't treat sexual abuse with the weight it deserves.
@@spampharos yeah I'm a survivor myself and really fell the lack of hypersexual characters around media . Angel might not be the best but he's what we have
@@spampharos The statement about vivziepop is true though, she doesn’t treat the topic with the respect it deserves, because SA is used as a joke both in hazbin and Helluva boss. Regardless of if you thought episode 4 handled the subject well or not, it doesn’t really excuse the fact that the show turns around and treats it as a silly quirky joke later on.
@@spampharos nothing they said disagrees with this, she doesnt treat it as what it is, she has made s/a into a joke multiple times and has someone on the team who has a grape fetish, plus, just because people relate to a character doesnt instantly mean they have zero flaws
My biggest problem with it is the way the show usually treats sa. I mean when Angel is harassing Husk (which the show even acknowledges) it’s funny. When Sir Pentious says “I’m going to have sex with everyone!” (as a running gag) and then gets dragged into a private room screaming and clawing at the floor it’s funny. But no, when Angel’s being abused it’s not funny. I’m a fan of both this show and helluva boss, and the humor normally lands for me. I could really do with the sa jokes tho. They’re not funny. Honestly that thing with Sir Pentious getting dragged away really upset me. It would’ve been funnier if it just ended with him saying that and everyone looked at him funny or smth. Don’t do that to my poor snake… or poor Moxxie
Thank you for making this video because I always felt so iffy about Angel Dust. As a sa victim it felt so wrong founding out that one of storyboard artist is literally into r@pe, AND THE FACT VIVIE IS JUST DEFENDING THEM IS JUST FUCKING GROSS. It’s even more gross that artist themself hasn’t experience R@pe makes me sick to my stomach.
As a victim of sa, i actually like angel dust. Hes just desperately coping with a situation he physically is not able to get out of. All im getting here is "how dare you cope by trying to make yourself think nothings wrong by leaning into it." Which is exactly how i coped! I get how the other sa survivors in the comments dont get it, because they didnt cope that way, but they dont take into account that everyone copes different. Even part of the poison song described the way i protected myself from worse abuse perfectly.
Yeah, people here are assuming that an intentional dissonance is an accident, and condemning said dissonance as inherently wrong. Is Angel Dust perfectly written? Fuck no, but Poison and Loser, Baby succeed at what they were trying to do, and people rarely engage with those songs as what they were meant to be, specially Poison, because, well, it's one of the few aspects of HH that I'd actually call subtle.
You forgot about the young and highly impressionable audience who, if they can be saved from them, should be saved from harmful coping mechanisms in favor of healthy ones
8:45 This is basically the ideas like the Movie "Cuties" where they tried to make a "message" About the Dangers of it but instead just did both at the same time of Increasing and decreasing
As a fan myself, I agree with you 100% I can't really say I have stopped liking the series, but I believe it's important to think critically about even the things you enjoy, I admire you for talking about a subject that's difficult for you, great video!
Gosh, I'm so used to creators sugar coating their opinions so carefully that that sometimes I lose track of what they were initially trying to say- It's a breath of fresh air hearing someone voice their opinions straight and honestly without sugar-coating, apologising, or tip-toing around the issue..
I came across this horrendous tweet about someone putting you on blast on Twitter. (Or X if you’re a Musker) so I decided to come down and have an in depth look and find out why so many people are hating on you unnecessarily and I have to say.. I agree with like.. all of your points. First of all I sincerely apologies for the fact you have been SA’d. my sympathies to everyone in this comment section who has had to deal with such a vulnerable and horrific event. And you’re right. The character of Angel dust in Hazbin is fundamentally flawed because every aspect about him that people could relate to is almost immediately undermined by his “silly quirky, sing song” persona. It’s actually quite interested to hear everyone’s point of view about this and I’m sorry it took such a dirty thing on Twitter to get me to acknowledge your rather insightful content on a topic of which I was previously blinded about. Thank you very much and again I’m very sorry. 💚
i interpreted poison as a cry for help that had to stay fabulous for the sake of appearances but maybe thats just me also loser baby was pretty outta nowhere and did downplay ad issues cause husk went from gambler to bar tender like its such a nightmare lol
Husker also sold his soul, not to Val like Angel but to Alastor. I imagine he experiences physical and coercive abuse from Alastor which has been hinted in the show, rather than SA which Angel does. However I never saw loser baby as downplaying, I saw it as Husker saying, ‘we both have issues, it’s ok to admit it and show it, and we can work through it together’, hence the “if we eat shit together things will end up differently” line. Not saying your interpretation is wrong, I’m respectful of your opinion, I’ve found it incredibly interesting to see how others see the show based on their own experiences.
@@spir I do like your optimistic interpretation more lol its a nice thought we dont have to have the same issues or trauma 1 up each other to be supportive
thank you for making this, you worded this video so well. i really wish sa was taken seriously by writers and not just something to slap onto their characters :(
i kinda believe angeldust's entire existence is polarizing entirely because there is no 100% perfect way to represent an overwhelmingly large amount of people who experienced the same kind of abuse. some victims think he is perfect representation, while others believe he is the furthest thing from that. there's no easy way to tell that angeldust is or isn't good representation because nobody feels or copes the same way about their abuse and it could probably influence how one thinks of the fourth episode as a whole. it'd be easier if we all just collectively decided "angeldust writing bad" but it's such a complex issue that we can't really go further than "he's a polarizing character." sorry, i don't really know how to speak on these things and i may have worded myself poorly here, and i'm not a victim so take everything i say with a mountain of salt.
Its different for everyone exactly my point someone out their could cope the same way as angel what then you gonna say THEIR ERITING IS BAD? you can’t say that abt someone who’s real I can’t wait for the day when my oc gets the message of bad writing bc I make my ocs have parts of me in them
For me, his character was a good idea but the whole problem was the execution (like the song etc..) plus some toxic trait (like he sexually harassed husk and the other staff when he was a SA victim) I feel like the character have no personality his just like “I’m a drug addict with trauma and loves doing sex jokes” even if you tell me it’s a mechanism or idk about his SA I feel more like that he was a poorly representation and a stereotype(the reason was literally in the video)
I want to add but when a lot of SA or CSA victim said it’s a bad representation I think it’s true (cause they know even it not everybody act same about trauma and all) but when I see so much of the victim in the comments said it’s bad then it’s bad no ? They feel uncomfortable with his character I think there a reason for it.
@@Lemonzzzthesilkwing Sorry but I saw in angel’s hypersexualisation a gay cliche and I think that what he is (like the ultra effeminate and driven by sex) plus It don’t act like SA victim sometimes I’m not a victim like you and I hope you’re okay today but he definitely not a good representation because I feel like the cartoon is not really serious about it (like in a episode they literally joke about sir pantious being rape or literally angel sexual harassing other or this freaking song draw/directed (idk) by a rape fetishist) or kind of hypocritical about it plus his bad because he is a stereotypical character and that give a bad idea for people about sex worker or SA victim and I don’t know why we have to take him in serious sometimes I just can’t 💀 he act so much like a victim (and sometimes he is right like with val) but with husk I just don’t understand- And a lot of young people love the show and praise for his character when he is just a poorly written and stereotypical ans make the cartoon more edgy-
12:57 Another example of this is how in EPIC: The Musical there are multiple songs referencing SA, but most of which have either an upset POV from the victim (and song told from the abu$3r so part of it sounds sort of aggravated/“upbeat”) (upbeat for lack of a better term). Hold them down, an unreleased song from the musical, has a very eerie, scary vibe to it while they are talking about Penelope (the victim).
AMEEEEENNNN!!!!!! IT WAS A BRIEF MENTION AND IT WASNT A PART OF HIS ENTIRE FUCKING CHARACTER BUT IT WAS SEEN HOW IT AFFECTED HIM. i loved joker 2 so much ugh
This was insanely good at getting right to the point of what exactly is happening that’s wrong, and how to change that with examples of how better media handled it. I just hope if anything the creator can see your video too. Thank you so much for talking about this as someone with sexual trauma as well, this show was really upsetting with how they portrayed this.
Viv doesnt care, she knows what criticisms we make and refuses to consider it, seriously go back to how she said she values good faith criticism and look at her writing in Hazbin Hotel and look at what people had issues with in Hazbin and how Full Moon and Apology Tour is.
@IM_BILL_CYPHER_TRUST_ME_BRO it is unfortunately a real thing, to a point where some are trying to discredit OP and their own trauma regarding SA because how DARE anyone call this episode bad. You know: the same episode who allowed a rape fetish artist who ships ValAngel board and choreograph Poison, the same episode that calls Angel a washed up loser who needs to suck it up cuz Keith David Cat 2.0 also is dealing with an overlord (who only owns his soul and hasn't been subjected to the rape and abuse Angel goes through almost daily).
@@shadetee234holy shit Twitter is disgusting, people will joke about other platforms being worse than Twitter but if you post this on like Reddit or, hell, iFunny of all places, there would be more positive than negative
In Helluva Boss, remember the episode where Verosika was first introduced? It was meant to be a joke that Moxxie was being sexually harassed by her. This is much like Sir Pentious' case in the club. Vivzie NEEDS to stop making SA a "joke".
Or just... don't make every real serious problem like a joke for one character but then make it a serious thing for another character. Really though Vivizepop and the other writers really need to stop with this hypocrisy crap that is going on in these shows.
I’m sorry to those who find Angel Dust and any Vivzie project triggering and upsetting. But as an SA survivor who dealt with it by being hyper sexual, I see myself in Angel and Poison really helps me work through my feelings. As someone who was in a toxic relationship and had trouble coming to terms with what happened to me was SA, seeing it so brutally on display and getting that gut reaction of “that’s not right” helped me. This doesn’t mean your feelings aren’t valid, but maybe this representation just isn’t for you. If you want to see “better” representation, create what you want to see. It’s the best way to get what you want out in the world. Just my thoughts.
Thank you. Angel Dust is *A* representation. He doesn’t have to be good for everyone. And some people are calling others “gross” for people relating him which isn’t fair. Just because he isn’t good rep for one person doesn’t mean he won’t be for someone else. Everyone has different experiences and traumas. If he’s not a mirror to you, then find someone else who is and allow others who appreciate his story to feel seen by him.
That's valid! But let's not disregard the fact how people behind the storyboard treat this matter too! because... 🤢 (They really saw it as a f3tish material) And the obvious double standards on other character (Sir Pentious one is treated as a big fat joke) But as for you, i really hope you (and other survivors in this comment section) are doing better! 🙏🏻
You know what? If the writers were consistent and depicted every SA against the characters suffered by it regardless of gender seriously then I would be the first to defend these type of scenes because I believe in awareness of taking SA seriously regardless of gender. Too bad the writers had to have double-standards though, because they could have defended created a message that goes ahead of our time.
I agree with everything, and I would like to add the portrayal of BOTH of the main mlm ships in Helluva Boss (Vivzi's other work) normalizes power imbalance. The person who is objectively more powerful (socially, economically, sometimes physically/materially) is NEVER questioned, in fact they are portrayed as a benefactor or even a victim, their control of the other person is equated to love and romance, and the power imbalance is never acknowledged as a negative thing - outside of angsty emotional climaxes that fix nothing about the inherent problems in the relationship. I have been in abusive relationships and the canonical ships that are portrayed positively in Helluva Boss are MORE realistically abusive than Angel Dust's story.
Genuinely made me uncomfortable to see that exact thing go on for so long... Felt like I was being gaslit when he kept insisting that Nooo Blitz is just denying his loooove for Stolas if *only* he let Stolas have his way and stopped being so gosh darn uncomfortable over certain aspects of their relationship everything would be just perfect!!
Why do some of my friends even like Valentino? I don’t watch the show, but from what I can see, he has ZERO redeeming qualities. Especially since he is an SA’r.
@@TimmyTheTinman … I’m not crying? I’m just saying that I need to watch a single episode in multiple parts since it’s a little hard to bare witness to.
A big part of the audience is kids under 18 getting into it. And many of them did experience SA at a young age or other traumas. Thus they aren't aware of the flaws with the show, therefore they get wrapped into it because they see their favorite show talking about something that happened to them. Good or bad presentation be damned. The unfortunate reality is that the show does attract a lot of minors despite being an adult animated series. There's a lot of adult fans as well but most times the adult fans for the most part recognize the flaws with the show while still enjoying it to some degree. If the writing and timing of things were better, and if there were more slow paced songs for the serious scenes and moments. Then we would be golden in all honesty.
Thank you for the last part. Angel Dust is my favorite character and im glad you acknowledged that people can still like the character. So many people just say how bad the show is without saying that its ok for people to still like the show and it's characters. I wish Angel was a better representation of abuse victims.
I’m a gay dude who’s been SAd and I think the framing of Valentino as just a one note caricature of an abuser is so hard to take seriously. Abusers are people with layers other than just “I’m evil”. The layers don’t make them less intimidating it actually makes them more intimidating because when you pick apart how they operate, it shows you why it’s so easy to end up as a victim of someone like this. Griffith in berserk is a sexual abuser but it actually explains how he and the people he’s hurt got to that point. He’s not just an evil entity that popped up one day. He’s not rational whatsoever but there’s an exploration of why this ended up here that’s not just “this is his job and he’s just like that”. I think the fear is that writing him more fleshed out might lead to people accusing the creators of trying to justify his actions but if you can’t write a fleshed out villain because of that then maybe focus on making a deeper exploration of Angel Dust’s journey to this point instead. I know they want to do this probably in the future of the show but you can’t introduce something like this and not expect people to be confused when the extent of the exploration is “you’re a loser, but it’s ok👍”
I mean, knowing the creator, I don't think they would be able to give the abusers layers without them being framed as a victim too. Just look at all the other examples of abusive behavior coming from characters we are supposed to sympathize and root for, like Angel Dust harassing every male character on screen and Stolas harassing Blitz at every opportunity, no matter the crowd, then guilt-tripping and gaslighting him when he doesn't respond to his advances like he wants.
i kind of feel like i can connect the way angel acts to either hypersexiality to HPD but as someone who does have histrionic pd, i wish they handled it better🙁 i haven't seen a lot of sa rep in media and i kind of prefer that it would be kept that way. everyone's experience is different, everyone copes differently and the way one person copes can be SO different from the way another one does and then when the question of "when will this character get redemption? will they heal?" comes up the fastest and most simple way to round the topic up would be to make a 2nd pov say "trauma makes you stronger". what hazbin hotel failed to do when trying to expose its viewers to such a topic is to make it seem serious and genuine, which I'm so glad someone finally covered because poison was a painful watch. a good example for a song about sa coming from a victim point of view would probably be 'daddy' by korn especially because of how personal it is for the writer, everything that is written comes from a perspective of someone trying to explain their experience and tell their story, while poison makes it all into a fun and silly music video where in one scene he dances and the other you can see him getting ab*sed. r@pe and sa in general is a very personal topic, you can explain any crime with self defense, poor home life so you have to steal to survive or crucial situation like speeding to get your pregnant wife to the hospital (for example) but there's no reason for sa to be justified in court, if a person does such a thing its purely because they wanted to. yet it still gets treated poorly by authority and people twisted this term so much to the point that victims had to pray for someone to finally believe them (another example for that would be Timothy Heller) - writing both a victim and a culprit who can perfectly fit into the most basic explanation of sa is very difficult and if done so suggested to have a victim doing so instead of someone like vivziepop trying to represent it.
As someone who went down the vivziepop rabbit hole, it is NO surprise that she sucks at writing considering she stolen the idea of angel dust and others from a close friend who was helping her
It’s fake , most of the characters in Hazbin , including Angel were made when she was in high school , the only character she stole from him was a zoophobia character , and she changed the design after the friend told her , if you want more information , go watch Ayy Lmao’s video “The truth behind Vivziepop”
5:09 - i wish people can just feel comfortable talking about certain subjects without needing to justify their backgrounds. Like, not everyone who goes through abuse should be forced to say they have and not everyone who hasn’t should feel banned from discussing it.
Exactly! They don’t owe anyone an explanation for their abuse. They have a right to tell or not to tell, whatever makes them the most comfortable. Those boundaries shouldn’t be crossed
I wish I could pin this comment in front of everyone's face forever. I have specific circumstances of mental health, disability and trauma. People who have not experienced any of them are more than allowed to talk about them, ask questions, learn how others responded, managed or what they deal with. They're also allowed to make wrong speculations and hopefully listen to those who correct them kindly. If we try to shut people out of a conversation, then we close off various perspectives and inputs, including things people in the box can't see or think of.
Is it sometimes tedious when someone thinks they have a solution that another one who does have the experience already knows doesn't work? Yes, but that's more to education on human psychology lacking than anything else.
And I am absolutely in the camp that feels like I have to preface "I'm x y, z and q" because otherwise what I'm saying isn't valid, will get misconstrued etc. It sucks. It's also exhausting.
Agreed
Right? I’ve never understood that
except when the person clearly have no empathy i can ban them from discussing it with me
When I shared my testimony about being assaulted and someone said “oh like Angel dust!” I never wanted to punch someone so hard
Okay edge lord
@ that’s not being edgy?
@@pjdixon6199 dawg if your personal sexual abuse trauma gets compared to vivs slutty twink spider oc, you'd wanna throw hands too
@@pjdixon6199tf are you yappin about
@@NotaMidDennysWaitress don't listen to them, they are just trying to bait you into getting angry. Or they are just really stupid
As a fellow male SA victim, thank you so much for putting your boundary up clearly and saying you wont share your story here and now. I've always struggled with doing this in social situations myself, and seeing someone else do it helps me feel more confident in putting my foot down :)
I hope you are doing well man, shit is tough and I just want to tell you that I hope you’re having a good day or will have a good day. Bc at this point in the world, we are lacking some good days
you got this, man!! wishing you all the best. putting your foot down and reinforcing boundaries can be difficult but i, random person on the internet, believe you can do it!! ^^
Dont get how thats much a struggle, who would willingly want to share that?
Respectfully
dude, if you ever and i mean EVER feel worthless, know that theres people on the internet that actually DO care about you and im one of them. i wish you the best recovery for trauma and the happiest life
I related to Angel Dust for a while, but then I watched Morel Orel and realised how juvenile the portrayal of SA victims is in Hazbin Hotel. It feels a bit like how a teenager would first explore the concept in their work, sensationalising it.
Ms. Gultham and Nurse Bendy are much more relatable to me these days.
I hope you are doing ok
Morel Orel does everything Hazbin does 100x better. I hope you’re doing well btw much love🩷
@@that_one_person4645 I'm doing lovely these days, I hope you are doing good aswell
Morel Orel is just one of those OG adult swim shows that will always live rent free in my head. And for good reason. I watched it late at night as a kid but rewatching it as an adult makes me appreciate a lot more details.
That episode was a tough watch.
I would love to bring up the musical "SIX" where one of the women, Anna Katherine, sings about her trauma with being groomed by predatory men and her experience with being SA'd and feeling powerless against them. If you know SIX, then you know that this song also is very pop and sassy in its energy! BUUTT the difference on what made "All you wanna do" so impactful and feel like actual representation is the fact that you as the viewer can understand the predatory behavior without it explicitly showing you it happen like a slap on the face like "Poison" did. All you wanna do, makes a viewer uncomfortable in a way where once you re-listen to it again you start noticing how messed up her situation really was. ESPECIALLY when its sung live, you can see her face slowly also realizing what she's been though which ultimately makes her break down in the last chorus.
This is SUCH a great comparison omg. That really puts in perspective how poorly Poison was done.
Six is absolutely brilliant and that song is soooooo deep
WAAAAHHHH SIX THE MUSICAL MENTIONED!!!!!!!!!
I love six
I feel like something similar is "Im sorry Im sorry" by I think kikaru (I think I butchered the name)
I'm also a victim of SA. Always been conflicted about Angel Dust's characterization. On one hand, I've met a lot of people who were assaulted who act the same way he does. Hypersexualization is a really common trauma response, hell, I was extremely hypersexual for years starting at a really early age because of the shit I went through. It's disturbing, but it's an unfortunate reality for many people like us. At the same time, the fact that the storyboarder in Poison gets off to Angel Dust/Valentino is... pretty damn sickening, yeah? Can't really look at many of Angel Dust's scenes the same way, just feels like there's this insidious "fetishization" lingering about.
Talking about Poison, if it makes you feel better: just because one person that happens to have very questionable kinks worked on the storyboard, doesn't mean that the whole scene is fetishy. It's one storyboarder in a team full of other storyboarders, which works with other departments and so on. There are a lot of people involved in the making of an animated show and I don't think one's personal taste can influence an entire scene that much, let alone a character's characterization.
That being said: hiring someone with a cnc kink (and who doesn't even bother to hide it) to work for your show with this kind of sensitive subject isn't the best move. I didn't feel like Angel Dust's SA was fetishized and I actually disagree with a lot of what the video is saying, but I agree that this is indeed a very poor decision and I understand why you would feel that way.
Exactly, hypersexualization is a common trauma response and in that regard I get that him as a character isn't horrible in theory BUT it deeply disturbs me that it feels like hes written and imagined from a fetishistic point of view, Idk how to quite explain it but it feels exploitative?
Can confirm, becoming hypersexual after sexual abuse does happen.
Tbh, i don't feel like i can even compare it to a trauma. All i knew is that it was wrong but didn't feel hurt. In turn, that made me miss the feelings.... so that's how it can result in HS.
May I add however, hypersexuality does occur, yes, Im hypersexual myself but that doesn't mean you automatically sexually harras anyone you see either, I do think that portraying hypersexuality as a means to sexually harras people is off to me, I strongly dislike it.
While I agree that having that storyboarder work on Poison is shit, one storyboarder doesn't actually have that much influence on the final product. Not only are there a lot more than one storyboarder working on it, there's also the people who actually draw the finished product.
For me, this show lost me the moment they decided to ‘joke’ about Sir Pentious getting assaulted in a club. You can’t pretend to take male victims of assault seriously, and then pull that double standard shit
Yes, and she does this in helluva boss too; she made Blitzø agree the have you know.. with Stolas in order to get a book. And everyone feels bad for Stolas when Blitzø breaks up with him (sorta?) if Blitzø was a woman EVERYONE would hate Stolas. And to be completely honest I didn’t really think about how bad Stolas was until I imaged Blitzø as a woman too ;-;
@@Whitetailedlynx
Not to mention the scene where Moxxie gets sa'd by the succubi and incubi; a scene where the line "don't let them access any of your holes" was played for comedy
I KNOW MY BEST FRIEND COWORKER SHE IS A S.A. SURVIVORS THIS EPISODE MAKE ME SOO VERY 😠THAT SHOW NOT FUNNY SHE WATCH THAT EPISODE SHE CRYING IN PAIN TRAUMATIZE RIGHT NOW HOW DARE THEY PUT THAT EPISODE THAT'S NOT FUNNY VIVZIEPOP IS GETTING AWAY WITH THIS I'M GOING TO FIGHT✊ FOR OUR RIGHTS FOR ALL THE REAL S.A. VICTIMS SURVIVORS IN THE WORLD.
Not even only that, angel keeps sexually harassing husk and it's treated as a quirky joke too
@@redactedunknownclowngod2875 I think you’re the one that doesn’t understand. I’m fine with dark humour about SA, but it’s the context that pisses me off. Viv chose to make one of her main characters a victim of assault, and she chose to make put it in a serious light. Then the writers went ahead and chose to JOKE about a man getting raped a few episodes later, which is coincidentally the same episode where Angel’s abuse is brought into light again. You say it’s the audience’s responsibility for what they watch, but shouldn’t it also be the writer’s responsibility to treat sensitive subjects with respect? It’s disingenuous to act like SA is bad one minute, and then next treat it like a joke.
My friends are like OBSESSED with hazbin and helluva boss and I used to watch it to see what they were hyping about and it just makes me so insanely uncomfortable
@@Apollo-the-rat-god personally, it makes me also sick.
it's basically the animated equivalent of a angsty edgelord teenager in 2010 discovering Johnlock smut fics for the first time.
@@GummyDinosaursifyprobably the most accurate description of this show I've herd so far.
I like your ranpo pfp (and i agree with you, I used to watch Helluva boss and I liked it a lot in like 2022 but I've seen a lot of videos of like whats wrong with it and stuff so I know what you mean.
exactly!!! also, off topic but ranpo pfp!!
I am an SA victim and I do relate to angel (the hypersexuality and addictions)but, I don't understand why the same show that wants to take sa seriously doesn't. When angel gets sa'd it's bad but when sir pentious and Moxxie does it's just a joke. It just feels like the creator doesn't actually care about victims, which is honestly a wild thing to do after they let a victim write poison.
No she doesnt and never had including the fact that shes stole designs and animations she has literally NEVER cared its only ever for her to get higher up the animator ladder.
literally like actually, it’s so hypocritical and tone deaf
I’m also so sorry that happened to you, you didn’t deserve that
It's because Angel is a man being violated by men
Sir Pentious and moxie got assaulted by women
It's very clear she doesn't take male victims by female perpetrators seriously and instead only considers male victims a serious thing when it's against poor owo gay babies assaulted by big bad evil men.
@@ItsMinnowSeasonTbf, both Moxie and Snake guy get jumped by woman AND men.
@@peachgrubonalog4921 proof of the design stealing? I have never heard of that b4
I weirdly felt like Angel dust was more likeable in the pilot 😭
@@garbhellhole he was, though his likability increases again after EP 4 when he starts dropping his facad
I liked Alastor more in the pilot. In the pilot he was a goofy guy with an evil side. In the show, he's an evil guy with a goofy side that is very insecure.
The pilot is superior to the show in a lot of ways.
All of them were except Husk. He more or less left the same impression on me in both parts.
Still hate Niffty cus she's super annoying more than anything. And just, there. She's like Millie but if you hated everything about her the second you heard her speak
THIS. I liked everyone better in the pilot. Except maybe Charlie... Too cheery.
"You see, the joke is porn. That's what makes it funny."
EXACTLY I HATE IT
I hate viziepop
@@lordevolder9907 me too
@@lordevolder9907bruh-_-
@@Bluebird-b3qme three
The thing is, if angel dust was straight everyone would absolutely hate him.
you're probably right, sad to say it lol
That---is unfortunately true.....
i hate him regardless
That's actually true
Almost as if the reason why he's getting a pass is because he's queer.
"People suffering doesn't create good people, it just creates suffering." Oh my lord what a line, not to mention that IMO, Angel Dust doesn't really act like a good person for a majority of the show. He sexually harassed multiple male characters but got away with it because they're all men and because it's "funny". It annoyed me so much with the fact that he didn't even apologize, I thought it was going to be then main part of his arc where he realizes that he's coping with his trauma in a harmful way with realizing he's repeating the harmful actions put on himself. But no, he just makes the men around him uncomfortable but they just accept it with no apology even after Husk says "you're always overstepping my boundaries". I'm really glad a lot of people found AD's story relatable and made them feel a little less alone, but from an outside view it is just not a good look for a lot of survivors and viewers who just get really uncomfortable, which is why I feel the extremely graphic imagery in Poison was disgusting. The scene before, after, and during the literal song communicated the themes and messages that anyone could understand already, so there was no reason to flash horrific imagery like that. I've seen so many comments of people, even fans, dropping the show because of how traumatized they were. This was just an extremely unwise decision, especially trying to make a character to represent FOR victims why would anyone even think of showing that when AGAIN there are already all the surrounding scenes for the message? Thank you so much for this video, I felt more comforted than by the story of any HH character and it meant a lot to see someone touching on just how badly handled AD's writing was.
I think I first saw a sentiment similar to that in Maus, where the author basically talks about his dad being a piece of shit despite being a holocaust survivor, but it's a sentiment that a lot of people have a hard time grasping.
There are so many characters that were suffering and it changed them for the better
I disagree with that first line. The worst kind of pain can either make a strong, great person, or a horrible, evil person
He didn't get away with it though as he got called out on it really. Eh he did apologize in a way though as he stopped doing it after episode 4, that IS what happened though. No they don't just accept it as Husk called Angel Dust out and Angel changed and stopped doing it after that episode which is episode 4. Nah from an outside view it is a good look for a lot of survivors and viewers as not everyone is a perfect human being including survivvors and victims really. It was kind of meant to be disturbing though. Eh not everyone understood everything that was really going on though and it was also done to show what Angel's life is really like so no there was reason to flash horrific imagery like that. Nah it was a wise decision there just always should have been a trigger warning disclaimer though. Nah Angel Dust worked out as rep for victims, because again not everyone understood everything that was really going on and it was also done to show what Angel's life is really like.
well that is the thing.
angel dust suffering made him a worse person. then he got a buncah people around him who care about him and gave him a support network. enough to endure it.
...... sad truth though is it puts a bad light on Charlie. she is so obsessed with her vision of being a good pesron and what they entails that..... she overlooks what she can do for angel.
Crush valentino under her heel until he yields angel's soul.
jesus christ learning that the storyboard artist made sexual comments to a minor makes me want to vomit
same, i was literally just eating some poptarts watching this video, i'm genuinely going to cry DAWG WTFF 😭😭😭
Agreed. It’s like a painting of the poor and needy, done by a fatcat moneybags Wall Street capitalist.
Holy shit a bisexual raptor
They're talking about the character. I don't think that the acts made by this "story board artist" affects us at all, stop whining about it.
@@tasuku.mp4 huh what?! Did you see the screenshots of what the artist said at 8:23 or are you just playing ignorant?
Another messed up thing is that angel dust keeps catcalling and flirting with husk, something he has shown many times as NOT OKAY, and yet it’s written to be something to laugh at but when it comes to angel dusk we are meant to feel empathy. The show wants husk and angel to be together when their friendship already is toxic as can be.
THIS!!! This is my biggest GRIP on the climax of Angel's ep, where Angem run off after Husk rejected him. Like, why is Husk being treated like the one at fault despite it being Angel's fault??? (The climax of Angel's episode). It's frustrating for me ugh, atleast let Angel apologize for making Husk uncomfortable.
Yeah because all angel did was flirt with husk?? That's not illegal or even CLOSE to the horrible actions of val
@@divine555 Yeah it's not as bad as Valentino but what Angel is doing is SEXUALLY HARRASSING HUSK. Just because he's not as bad as Val doesn't mean his actions are suddenly okay, I can't even believe that has to be explain. One's pain doesn't INVALIDATE your actions.
@@AUCreatoer the fact you consider basic flirting as harrassment is hysterical 💀 all angel did was flirt with husk, he definitely shouldn't have gotten mad by the final no but you have to remember that once someone says no you can *never* have another chance with them, so while he shouldn't have yelled at husk the feeling he felt was valid, as well as husk rejecting angel since he's not interested in him, though angel merely flirting with husk was not a issue 😂 maybe go flirt snd you'll be less of a prude
@@divine555 ?? Yeah it's flirting but Husk made it CLEAR that he was uncomfortable with it, that's what sexual harrassment is wtf are u on about? Also, multiple times Angel breaks Husk boundaries with his flirting despite MULTIPLE times being told NO. I'm atleast glad you know that Husk feelings was valid, that nice ig.
I'm sorry for all the hate you're getting on Twitter for this. Thank you for speaking out on this topic and giving many people comfort and hope with this video. 💖
This dude is getting hate on Twitter? Not to sound like an edgy teen but jfc I hate people
Don’t tell me the Hazbin Hotel fans are jumping him on Twitter rn…
@@Thesilliestgoose1 Hopefully the wave of hate has stoppes by now, but the screenshots and tweets OP was getting was downright evil. I sincerely hope that the rabid stans have moved on by now.
do you know who is featured at 3:47?
I read a Twitter post bashing him recently. It was sad to see but at least there were some comments defending him that were the most popular.
What needs to be understood about Angel Dust is that he is an abuse fantasy, not a character that realistically depicts the abused. He is a teenagers romantic fantasy rather than an examination of a social issue. This show should not be taken as a healthy portrayal of anything. The creator is a talented but severely warped individual.
She’s a great animator, but a very VERY bad writer. There needs to be better writers in the series, and none of the writers should be Vivziepop.
Weird, considering she has an abusive ex boyfriend. She just sucks at writing I guess?
@@ameliorateepoch9917 Viv needs a handler. There is constant drama surrounding this show and she always somehow makes it worse.
I am so shocked so many people cant tell that she gets off on this stuff.
@@thomasthomas3812 It's the fact that you can very much see this type of fetishizing in half of her characters (specifically the males)
as a victim of father trauma (and sexual exploitation trauma in general). i absolutely despise how much vivsie tries to make "daddy issues" and "uwu so traumatised" a quirky personality trait.
Unfortunately it's an ongoing thing on the internet. You can almost call it a trend. I don't think people even know what's wrong but it has always been there for years so I wouldn't really blame creators but the audience in general since apparently it sells pretty well.
Lotsa love
Father trauma is so much better than “daddy issues.” Makes it sound like the serious problem it actually is. We need to start calling it father trauma instead of “daddy issues”
@@starstorm1267 "father trauma" also places blame where it belongs ON THE FATHER. as opposed to the heavily sexualized "daddy issues"
@@starstorm1267sounds kinda goofy but i agree idk what else to call it though
@@charliedeegan1598 same goes to mother trauma as well (more known as "mommy issues"... sadly)
As I heard someone say once, Vivzie isn't a writer, she's an oc creator
Edit: Obviously you can be both and I really don't want people to feel discouraged to write!! But imo you need a slightly different mindset for 'I'm gonna post a few animations and backstory docs' and 'this will be a larger series on Amazon' and that's what I'm talking about
This is what I remind myself whenever I feel the urge to write something. Besides that, I absolutely hate books because they're way too cryptic with stupid words and I'm no professional so I wouldn't know how to not make a simpler one repetitive.
And I am NOT drawing a whole ass manga rn lmao
fuck yes, this. ^
nothing wrong with having a little fun with characters you make.. but if you make em public, at least.. you know, make them not a complete stereotype. Id love it if they could have real, meaningful stories, or dive into the impact of trauma.. but alas, she’s not a writer.
that's what she Is. we've seen her history on RUclips and what she would work with where mostly speedpaints of her ocs, short animations with music without context and stuff. Vizie was never a writter and i doubt she specialized even a single bit for this.
@@stupidmangoz I agree with you but at the same time also think that's such a sad way to limit yourself.
Exactly my thoughts. She's good at creating a very colourful cast of characters but seems to miss the mark when it comes to fleshing them out or giving them fulfilling character arcs.
i hate when people say "so sa survivors cant have fun?" life as an sa survivor should not be bleak 24/7 but his glamour and shit is so obviously made in a fetishistic way
I think Vivzie and her fans don't understand that bottoms can be predatory too... Angel and Stolas are treated like they did nothing wrong, and their constant SA towards others isn't depicted as harmful. And Stolas... oh my god. The way they twisted his original concept, ending up getting the show being entirely around the Stolitz drama that changes over and over. We can literally clearly see Vivziepop's fetishist feelings that drove her beyond common sense. Thinking with your duck writing a show is unprofessional.
THIS. This is also the reason why most women who are predators aren’t seen as a big deal because most of them target boys/men and are bottoms
This is just a simple question out of curiosity but what exactly did Angel do wrong with his business with Valentino that made him predatory too? Was there something I missed or were you just bringing him up as a potential thing? Stolas’ case is dead obvious. I’m glad it seems like more people are exposing him as hypocritical rather than supporting him
@@Joey7Z7Horror Angel is s.harrassing every man he meets
As a top who thought he was a bottom for a long time. I thought I was one from the day I learned about them but turns out I was just being severely abused by my ex girlfriend. So I want everyone to know that I fucked up the terms and I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them. Bottoms are victims or at least can be.
@@Kurkanos thank you for clarifying
I'm an asexual SA victim who suffers from hypersexuality
In my personal experience with it, it's really more of a compulsive urge to objectify yourself than an actual desire to engage sexually with another individual
I know it isn't the same for everyone but when I do engage in hypersexual behaviors after the feeling has passed I feel intense guilt and remorse as it almost feels like I was useing someone and/or falling back into old habits
I have yet to see any guilt, remorse, or punishment for Angel, literally sexually harassing other men
I clarify that I am asexual as it may influence the particular amount of guilt I feel for being hypersexual
Thank you for talking about this. I'm also acearo and sadly I suffer from hypersexuality, including horrible and painful unwantrd groinal responses :'( I barely find people with the same case as mine.
Fellow asexual person, who suffered from childhood sexualization and gained hypersexuality due to it, it was absolutely my own coping method to try and feel like I was taking back control from all the ways I was degraded over the years. I made shitty mistakes during that time, and with a great partner, therapy, and time to all help me heal, my hypersexuality went away, and I can safely reflect on my issues without debilitating sense of guilt dragging me back down.
I wouldn’t say you feel more guilt just because it’s your sexuality. I’m straight, and went through intensive guilt. Suicidal depression. My hyper-sexuality was awakened when I was a child due to my own trauma. And my guilt stems from the images I would imagine with the very person who assaulted me. That being said, I was assaulted by the same person for years.
I believe the level of guilt is different for others, and not directly on one point. But more so a situational thing.
In general, the reason I bring this up to you and to any other person who reads this thread - It is not your fault. What happened to you has never been your fault. Your reaction to it does not make you gross, or a horrible person. It can be hard to move past, but you are not alone.
Wow this is actually the first time I've heard another asexual person talk about their experience with hypersexuality and SA. I feel much of the same way.
@@Sheik-yo9fjI completely understand, I struggle so badly with hypersexuality and groinal responses despite being ace and it's terrible. You're not alone.
thank you for making this video! my oc is a survivor of sa and i'm always worried if writing him as such would come off as disrespectful bc i've never expirienced nothing like that. but watching this video, i understood, that my writing for this oc is actually good and i can sleep calmly
Of course I’m happy to help. One of the things I’ve found to be extremely helpful when it comes to creating representation is to get advice from someone you are trying to represent
As a csa survivor, I actually find it a bit annoying when people “tack on” sexual trauma to their characters unless specifically for awareness purposes, because it’s not just another thing to add on mindlessly to make your character more traumatized and “quirky”. Not to say that it’s not okay at all, but that’s just my opinion on the matter and I fully respect other opinions as well :)
@@skeleton_in_a_cowboy_hat no, I totally get your opinion and agree with it! Honestly, I was really worried that it could come off as "trauma for the sake of trauma", and I don't want it to be just that. I see a lack of good representation of male sa victims in media, and I want my character to be at least a better representation
sensitivity readers are a thing
REAL‼️‼️ i hav multiple ocz who hav been SA'd and NONE of them act like this😭😭😭
Nobody ever mentions how strange it is that Valentino is meant to be irredeemable because he assaulted Angel but he’s also one of the main side characters who gets funny one liners, a scene kissing Vox, a song, and a design everyone says they love, are we meant to hate him or not
EXACTLY, it's so disturbing like why are ppl treating him like "uwu silly mothman :3".
I want more with Valentino and Vox, everyone has a different taste
@@dollskill863Valentino being a rapist doesn't help much your argument...
@@Loves-s4hSo? He’s a fictional character. God forbid someone enjoys a villain from a cartoon.
@@obama6770 Even though he is a character, whether we like it or not, fictional characters end up influencing people. The normalization of the actions of a character, like Valentino, ends up bringing thoughts like: "If (name of fictional character) likes it, then it must be good." Another thing is fetishes, if you watch a lot of content that is not very cool, and that normalizes this only in fiction, such as rape, gore, etc. Exposure to this type of content can generate a fetish about it, and the more you watch, the more the fetish will grow, to the point where you will have the desire to do it in real life.
i find it disturbing that you have to tell the Internet that you were SA'd in order for your opinion on fictional SA to be valid.
im not doubting you at all, im just disappointed that one needs to admit such things to be heard.
It sucks. I really wish I didn’t have to but I know what this fandom is like.
Exactly. Do people forget the meme:
"Do you think someone would do that? Go on the internet and tell lies?"
They'll use that to make fun of something, likr a lie on the internet, then a random user goes: "As a vet....."
And they have 5 K likes.
@@LimusTSlime pretty sure you’re lying
@@TimmyTheTinman are you fucking kidding me right now. get the fuck out, just leave now.
@@TimmyTheTinmanGet a job, buddy…
Keep surviving.
It's always "keep surviving", but never "keep living".
Keep surviving and try living.
@@Wolf_Blob Because in today's society, you can't be alive but you can survive.
Unrelated but however. Acceptance of minorities has been warped into minorities demanding to be accepted which in turn makes people less acceptant. An infinite cycle of hate for each other who is different. I, myself do not care what kind of person you are, as long as you are a person who is kind.
FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!
Well thats vaguely threatening
I dont wanna be a "well if the roles were reversed.." guy but i feel like angel dusts portrayal of sa wouldnt be praised as much if he was a woman. Thats not to say that female victims of abuse have it easier or are represented better but i think if people saw him as a woman itd be easier for them to recognise how stereotypically written he is.
yeah, i think people have a much lower standard and amount of respect for male sa victims.
@@carrot7911a lot of that is thanks to societal standards and the assumption that it’s impossible for a man to be a victim of sexual abuse. The whole reason why the statistic for male victims of abuse being an underestimate is because so many don’t report it because of that standard put in place. Society views men as being weak and that they weren’t strong enough to not get abused
@@LimusTSlime God, exactly. Male SA victims are so underrepresented and very often ignored/dismissed because of this belief that men can't be assaulted, and when it isn't because people believe men are just strong enough to fight off the assaulter (which ignores that coercion and getting SA'd in your sleep exists), it's because of this belief that men always want sex, which is just as damaging, especially when you're an asexual man, such as myself.
@@carrot7911as a female i find it absolutely disgusting how people don’t have the same sympathy for men who have experienced sexual assault than women
@@LimusTSlimeso men are being told that masculinity is bad, but at the same time men are supposed to just “deal with it” or “man up” when they are raped or abused? What the hell is this world coming to man 😔
What annoys me about the show is how edgy it tries being. Because “They’re in hell and they’re supposed to be as vulgar as possible.” It makes all the characters one dimensional. There’s like three character types in the whole show. With the exception of Alastor cause he’s the most interesting and well thought out character. I think that’s how we got to the bad abuse rep. Because Vivzie is so focused on the concept of these characters being demons in hell, she makes Angel extremely vulgar and sexual, and then plays it off as him being an abuse victim. And I understand that real SA victims can be hyper sexual as a way to cope with the trauma. But Angel feels like a caricature of that. I can bet that most SA victims that use sexuality to cope, still don’t act nearly as sexual as angel. I also don’t believe many pornstars just go around moaning in their day to day lives for no reason. Or harass people by saying nasty shit to them. He’s way too exaggerated and it makes his whole character seem like a joke.
I know right?!?!? I watch South Park and similar shows and I just wanted to shoot myself the whole time it was so unfunny
@ literally. Like South Park knows how to be funny and edgy. The jokes in Hazbin are just overused sex jokes. They’re completely uncreative. I’m convinced Vivziepop never left the tumblr phase. Cause this show is something a depressed teen on tumblr would write
This is one of the best comments here , if they only had that excuse for all the swearing and adult jokes it’ll be fine , but no , they do it with everything
Im not in LGBTQ+, but Im a male victim who had a very very similar experience to Angel Dust with older women. Although I see myself in him at times, I seriously dislike how fetishized the trauma is, I couldnt put my finger particularly on why I hated it so much, but you perfectly described everything wrong with Angel Dust's "representation." Great video! I feel heard. and Glad you're with us. Ive never seen the channel before.
Fans when Stolas uses Blitz for s3x: WOOOO! NOBODY GIVES A SH1T!
Fans when Verosika SA’s Moxxie, who is a *married* man: WOOOO! NOBODY GIVES A SH1T!
Fans when Sir Pentious gets SA’d despite screaming ‘No!’ multiple times: WOOOO! NOBODY GIVES A SH1T!
Fans when Valentino abuses Angel: 😭😡😤😖😫
This is literally the fandom in a nutshell along with not understanding asexuality and having a thing for twinks.
I watched the show and I was disappointed that Sir Pentious was treated as a joke
My man deserves a better treatment than being the punching bag
He was literally assulted, saying 'no' all over like goddam, Vivienne? Aren't your another oc ( Angel Dust ) who got treated like this and you're making it serious but what about Sir Pentious??? ( And Moxie )
Fr like if you are joking about it, don't make a plot line about you are against
tbh some fans fetishize or dont care about angel's abuse anyway
Also fans when Angel assaults Husk
Although I am not a sexual assault victim, I can absolutely see why angel’s writing is bad. I am neurodivergent and hate it when I see shows stereotype ADHD and autism, I have although been severely manipulated by someone, and if a show handled that topic with a techno pop music video I would be pissed.
edit: I get that you can handle these things with bright music, but may I remind you the scenes were storyboarded by someone with a rape fetish, that's what especially weird. I get that its masking the pain and whatever but I feel like "loser baby" puts the cherry on top. Saying "oh yeah your abused, but your not special, a lot of people are abused". It shows that they probably didn't put much thought into it.
oh, he's ADHD? oh my God i hate him even more, that is NOT a good representation
I am not any sort of Survivor of any sort of thing, but this is genuinely Crazy. You could make the song have techno pop and meaning while making it gutwrenching, however it's pretty hard, so unless you know what your doing... Two ways to NOT do it is
1) Make it very dancylike even after the meaning is shown..
2)show some sad scenes, and have the victims dance to it like kpop idols. Ik it's not similar, but to put it into image, imagine 911 survivors dancing to the Destruction of the building, in a kpop happy style with the happiest faces.
Do take my opinion with a grain of salt though.
"I am neurodivergent" ok but seriously who the hell asked? you could've easily made your comment without saying that
@@googoogaagaaytyou could’ve easily read that they talked about *autism and ADHD STEREOTYPES* saying you’re neurodivergent there makes sense.
The music video seen was meant to be Angel Dust’s mask for how he feels about it, remember the ending of that song where he says “filling up my glass but it’s always hollow” that’s a reference to in the song when he tries to make it seem like he’s happy about it, some even pointed out it looks from the visuals like he’s almost disassociating from the situations he’s in.
My bigger issue with Angel Dust is how his job was joked about in that way in the other episodes, considering what we know it’s not fair to joke about it like that. (this is as a fan of the show) and *especially* that scene with Pentious. It would’ve been more funny if people around looked at him and raised an eyebrow and he was like “not… really” instead of the horrific implications of that scene.
i was raped when i was twelve. MULTIPLE TIMES. not getting into details but i remember feeling rly down and decided to watch hazbin hotel again. when i saw angel dust's 'backround story' i was beyond disgusted. ty in the name of all rape/SA victims for bringing this to everyones attention
When you consider that the first character, Alastor, was created by Vivzie when she was in high school, a lot of the weird shit about this show starts to make sense. The fact every character dresses like the Onceler, the over abundance of cursing and bad sex jokes, the tone-deaf girly-pop music; these are all things that high schoolers think are cool. This show started from the mind of a high schooler but never grew out of the mind of a high schooler.
She was raised in internet culture 2010 yaoi and it's obvious
Vivizepop is literally the definition of a edgy high schooler stuck inside a grown woman's body lol
To be fair, characters you create in your childhood can be further developed/changed over time. I have several characters that I created when I was in high school that have gone through various changes and reworks as I got better at story telling/character design.
@@alternatewhale4996 Yeah, evolving the characters/ideas over time is very important. The mistake a lot of creators make is letting their high school nostalgia define their characters, instead of letting the ideas mature.
@@alternatewhale4996same! My main Oc used to be so edgy I personality and looks, but now she's like a more mature versión of it
The thing about Angel Dust is that on paper, he’s good representation.
Hypersexuality is a common trauma response and shouldn’t be treated with disgust. Some people use sex as a means to cope with their trauma. Men, especially gay men, are often not properly treated/represented. Porn stars are often trapped in their position.
The main issue I have is not only the stereotyping, but the fact Angel Dust IS an abuser himself. He constantly disrespects people’s boundaries and flirts even if it’s made obvious it’s not wanted. This gives the impression that the show is saying “yeah, he constantly makes ppl uncomfortable and is a terrible person, but look what happened to him!” Trauma isn’t an excuse to traumatize other people. It’s understandable to lash out, to get defensive, etc. but knowingly making people uncomfortable and sexually harassing them has no excuse to it.
Angel Dust had so much potential but was so horribly written.
Yeah, like I think he's allowed to have that flaw of not respecting others boundaries as long as the narrative treats it like a flaw and he gets actual character development but no one ever calls him out for his behavior and the narrative picks and chooses what type of harassment is funny and what isn't
In a vaccuum him harassing others could be a flaw that works, and knowing his backstory we can understand why he does it, it wouldnt be too out of question for an SA victim to do that, especially when they were never taught about boundaries and may deem what happened to them as normal. But its not treated as a flaw that needs correction and hurts others, its more treated as a joke, plus he seems quite aware of what he is doing. He doesnt get told off on his behaviour, which for some characters could be in character, but surely somebody would say something
most people who abuse are abused themselves, however, trauma is no excuse to harm others. Angel Dust as a character only comes across as a tone-deaf representation of an "SA" character.
I feel like Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3 is a much better representation of that mix of characteristics(even tho he's canon bi\pan), than the "gay harasser stereotype tehehe" Angel Dust character will ever be. Astarion's hypersexuality as both a cope and protection mechanism is explored in a much more realistic and 3 dimensional way, even the way he flirts works better.
It isn't even stereotyping though like there are real people that are like that, and no Angel Dust isn't an abuser himself. Sexual Harassment isn't abuse though. The show knows that trauma isn’t an excuse to traumatize other people and it calls him out too.
Nah he was well written really.
Hazbin Hotel is weird. I felt the Piolet (the one on with the OG cast) brought so much potential, thinking it was going to be a catroon dealing with ethical delemas, especially with Angeldust, but then the show came out kinda dropped all the intrigue and care for popsongs and shock humor jokes
yeah, i was really excited from the pilot but it ended up being... uhm
@@turtleface365successful? already getting three more seasons?
@@TimmyTheTinman horrible.
@@RaylineOfSunshine cry about it😂
@@TimmyTheTinman
Rushed, haphazardly written, poorly underdeveloped and badly written characters, too many plot points for one season, double standardized jokes (such as SA), and for me personally, barely-decent character designs.
Having a storyline about Angel recovering from SA, and at the same time having Sir Pentious getting Diddy'ed in the club is crazy.
Glad I'm not the only one who had a sour taste in my mouth after seeing those compilations of Angel Dust "slaying", when said slaying is just him harassing everyone. I thought we were over glorifying sexual harassment in fandom spaces, guys
The spectre of Tumblr cannot be eliminated so easily
Expecting fandoms to only attract people who can be mature & tasteful? Never gonna happen
agreed
I'm a survivor of csa myself, but personally, I had a very different interpretation of Angel, Poison and Loser, Baby. (This is purely for the sake of discussion, I'm not trying to invalidate any feelings or say that any one interpretation is correct and admittedly I got carried away because I actually really like analyzing things lol)
Angel's entire character revolves around convincing himself that if he uses his persona and body and becomes what everyone says he is, then he is actually in control of his life and choices so he doesn't feel as helpless as he actually is. Poison is the shiny facade. The fact that it disconnects from the visuals is the point. Angel is telling himself he's addicted to this lifestyle but is telling himself this as he's being r*ped. Believing that it's his fault is an unhealthy coping mechanism. I feel like this is especially clear in the 'yes, Valentino' scene. It's one of the darkest scenes both tonally and visually and is directly connected to Angel having a lack of choice so explicit that there's no way he can spin it into anything else.
The point of Loser, Baby isn't for Husk to tell Angel to 'stop being a whiny baby', it's to extend a hand and provide a support network without completely shattering the illusion of control Angel has built for himself. He's shown that he rebels against gentler forms of encouragement so Husk saying "okay, well even if it is all your fault and you put yourself in this situation, you still have people who care and a network" was a starting point.
Angel has sealed himself off in a bubble of his own design, crafting his personality and actions to be what's expected of him. In this way, you could say he's not ready to truly face reality yet, which is why he can't really be compared to the song from Rent, which is all about someone accepting his mortality and wanting to leave an impact. Angel's just not at the point of acceptance in his development.
I'm glad you found enjoyment in the show! I do disagree with a lot of this but I'm not gonna be telling you what to think or how to view my video. Im glad you at least gave it a watch. Keep surviving :)
Damn, this is how I interpreted it. Sometimes I do believe people need to show some aggressive care(whatever that's called). Because saying things like "you're worthy of love," and all that nice stuff can fall flat for a character like Angel who's stubborn and arrogant.
I can say this because I've noticed this about myself where I'm more inclined to listen and be more grounded when people don't entirely reject the idea that I'm a "bad person." Because I can be a bad person to myself and others, it's not hard to see.
Sometimes people just want support. Someone who'd accept you no matter what you go through and what you do as a result of it. Because the response to the trauma is a part of me now, and I know it's bad. But I want someone to understand, instead of trying to forcefully pull me out of it. And maybe, I can recover in my own pace.
This is what I assume "Loser, Baby" was about. It's the first step of recovery and forgiveness. Accepting the harsh truth and finding a better perspective. Cause being alone and dealing with your trauma, undoubtedly, one of the worst experiences...
Although, Husk's abuse isn't really shown in the show. I guess it has more to do with the feeling that you lack control over your own body and choices. And that's what they both relate to.
Yeah I definitely took it as a "I can't fix this and it sucks ass, but I'm here with you and you're not alone." It's just the character's communication style to be a bit tongue in cheek about it
@@LimusTSlime I despise people like you, I have experienced sexual abuse, if I wasn't in therapy I would act be acting nearly exactly like angel dust.
I interpreted it in a similar way, although I will say the execution could've been improved a LOT
I watched the show with my partner and I think that episode (mostly that song) was the only time I felt any real strong emotion, as someone who's been SAd and taken advantage of multiple times, it felt better than just, having a character pity and almost baby Angel, if that makes sense?? It's hard for me to phrase
Bro as someone who was a CSA victim who DID deal with hyper sexuality, Angel Dust is an insanely offensive character to me. It’s not that he’s sexualizing himself, it’s that he is actively victimizing others around him and gets NO punishment for it! He gets one episode to sing a little song about how aww he’s just a victim, and CONTINUES to sexually harass his “friends”… plus he’s grating to the senses to watch, I genuinely hate him
But I will say, VERY unpopular opinion, pleeease be nice to me 😭one of the storyboard artists having a non con fetish doesn’t bother me. It’s their business tbh, it doesn’t make them a reprehensible person. I think the graphic scenes of Angel Dust being raped is INSANE, and unnecessary, horrifically fetishized, and the techno colour pop music doesn’t help, AND think it is weird someone with a rape kink was primarily working on it, AND ALSO having the fetish itself is whatever, non-con play is more common than people think, and if it’s between two consenting adults, idgaf
@@pleaseignoreme2946hit the nail on its head i think. people's sexual interests dont reflect their morals, you can absolutely have a noncon fetish while realizing how serious the subject matter is and paying respects to that, depicting it in a responsible way. that storyboarder is just a bad apple
@pleaseignoreme2946 The fact you said rape kink is already raising some huge ass red flags since when was anything not happening without you're consent hot and shit like that's very weird
@@Jump-Shack meh, it’s especially empowering for victim’s to regain a sense of control back. More people have it than you’d think, especially women. I really don’t see the big deal when you can re-enact it in a safe way with a consenting partner. Fetishes aren’t in your control and are sometimes unexplainable, it’s just psychology
@@Jump-Shack And don’t really understand what you mean by mean by me saying “rape kink” is a “red flag”, I was just describing what it is 😭
Hey bud, for as much as it means to you,
I hope you'll feel better. Or at least less awful, if that's more correct. I'm not going to act like I understand what you're going through, but I will say I've seen a friend's life get destroyed because of the same reasons. And it tore my heart out, and your video tears my heart out too. In your voice lines, sometimes, you sound like breaking down a little, and I hope you're doing better now. Whatever your story is, whatever you feel, *please* know that you deserve love, and are loved by those around you. I wish you the best, I really do.
Musicals can write SA and have upbeat pop songs. Six showed us with All You Wanna Do, but even then the actress playing Kathrine Howard was crying and not literally dancing like in other numbers
As a teen, I was physically, emotionally neglected and emotionally abused. When hazbin hotel fully released, my friends kept telling me to watch hazbin and I eventually did and I fucking hated it because of how it portrayed coping with abuse/sexual abuse, because I had my unhealthy coping mechanisms (won’t disclose them) and I publicly said my disliking for portraying coping/abuse, and I got hated on twitter/X for having a opinion as someone who was abused/neglected
I'm really sorry for what happened to you, I hope you're doing great. It okay to not like Hazbin Hotel, I mean I hate it for the same reasons like you and many more (How it basically mishandles mature themes and comes off as incredibly disrespectful.). Sometimes I just feel like Hazbin Hotel is a fundamentally toxic show and a trap that most people fall into if they want to watch something that can relate to them and make them feel better. My ex-girlfriend is a huge fan of the show while I despise it. She has unhealthy coping mechanisms too (she experienced some form of sexual harassment in the past). To me this show is a personification of giving into unhealthy habits.
Solution: no twitter.
Also, that shit sucks, prove the bad voices in your head wrong by living without the vice. Godspeed.
great video ! i'm also someone who has experienced sexual abuse and angel dust has always felt a little weird to me as a character. your commentary really articulates the issues with his him well. i also felt his arc per sé was a little rushed, hh could've definitely benefitted from a few more episodes
I’m really happy I was able to get my points across well. There are things I do love about the show (Lucifer and sir pentious) but Angel dust really disappointed me because when I first saw the pilot in 2019, I was expecting him to be my favorite going in when he ended up being the reason is too red watching.
I do hope a second season fixes these issues
Also from one survivor to another, I want to let you know how proud I am of you for how far you’ve come so far. Never stop fighting
@@LimusTSlime i was a really big fan of angel and hh when it pilot came out, yet i was put off by how they seemed to change angel to be more mean spirited in the series, i like him way better in the pilot
also same goes to you. i hope you're in a good place with people who appreciate you. never stop fighting either
@@LimusTSlime Hi Linus , I’ve got a question for you , do you think that Vivziepop is an awful person for writing Angel , I’m not debating , just asking
@ I think she’s an awful person for a lot worse reasons than this.
Can some of you please stop harassing Limus over their video, its their personal thoughts and feelings over this subject and they’re valid to them. You don’t have to come bombarding them with hate.
I'm a sexual abuse survivor, if I wasn't in therapy I would be acting nearly exactly like angel dust
Exactly, Same for me, this is a great example….
Same
I sometimes DO act like him--
@feliaya11 Looks like the show's manipulation is working. I really hope it gets booted off the face of the planet, for all the harm it's causing to such a young and impressionable audience. Just because a favorite character of some young child has an unhealthy coping mechanism, doesn't mean the child should copy it. It will only do harm. Undoubtedly, the child would've never developed that behavior to begin with, if they never saw it being used in such a glorified way on their favorite show. Remember kids; unhealthily coping isn't okay, forget the ideology that this show pushes, please try either therapy or seek other coping mechanisms. This message is not intended to shame, or offend, I simply want to guide you in a better direction and hopefully improve on your life, I don't like seeing young kids' lives being ruined early because of a behavior such as this. I hope you can find some help from a lover or a therapist. Spoken from someone who has has unhealthily coped due to S/A and abuse, and has been guided out of that mindset over the course of 2 long years by the help of my girlfriend / soon-to-be wife.
@@FeliAya11 okay buddy.. you sure do
Ty for saying you don’t owe anybody an explanation of being assaulted. So many people feel entitled to an explanation, but it’s a very touchy subject, and as a victim of SA myself, it can be uncomfortable having to explain what happened over and over again. Also defending someone that has a rape fetish is actually insane when representing SA, incredibly tone deaf 😭😭😭
I honestly have a horrible compulsion to explain what happened to me in detail because I feel like a liar if I just say "I'm a CSA survivor" and I'm always terrified people won't take me seriously because what happened to me was COCSA. I hate it, because sometimes I wanna vent about what happened to friends or anonymously online but then I feel the need to just explain everything or else I won't be taken seriously unless they know the full story. I'm getting better with it now, but I still feel shame saying stuff like "I'm a CSA survivor" unless I explain exactly what happened or else I feel like I'm somehow lying or exaggerating even though every mental health professional I've explained my trauma to said it was CSA and even the police took it seriously (which they normally don't in my area)
As a victim, poison was traumatic, I honestly don't know how you can see it as glamorized. To me, the dancing was Angel dissociating and trying to escape the pain he is in, being r*ped for a living. The upbeat music was him trying to cope and try to make himself feel better. Masquerade was hard to watch, extremely painful as a victim because it hit so close to home. I literally became addicted to the ab*se.
That feeling felt like I had been poisoned. I craved being ab*sed even though I hated it. These conflicting experiences exist. That's what poison expresses. Angels conflict with drugs, sex, and valentino; literal poison. It wasn't a fetish/fetishistic to me. My issue is it could've been better explored in and fleshed out more than in 1 ep. It felt very rushed to me, and I think it deserves more care and attention.
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS COMMENT! Viv did a good job in my opinion❤
You think this because you have better analytical abilities, that's why.
Also, I'm sorry for what you've been through
Yeah. The writing is incredibly flawed. But I don't think having "upbeat music" when talking about a tramautic scenario is really that bad? Maybe I'm just too used to Vocaloid, because they be talking about gruesome child abuse with upbeat and ironically childish music. The differences is tone is meant to be eerie and off-putting, not fetishizing victims.
@@stooroosk as a vocaloid listener myself (for example kikuo, gomene gomene), the thing is- those songs are actually CREEPY. It gives off the vibe of the happy music not being real, at least for me. Meanwhile from what I've seen, Poison.. doesn't. Especially not with the dancing. It should've been shown better idk.
@@zaytaz9331adding on, “candy house” sung by kasane teto is another example. its specifically deals with SA and being “addicted” in a way to it. i must warn you though the lyrics are incredibly graphic
this whole show has so many controversies and things wrong with it, but is defended and ignored by the fanbase to an ignorant degree.
As a fellow victim of sexual abuse I do find him quite relatable because sometimes you are indeed like that. You hypersexualise yourself ,you cope with it poorly ,you make the most inappropriate jokes and comments ever ,you accept being objectified. It’s a complicated journey and I believe sometimes it does indeed look like that
as someone who’s hypersexual due to autism (yep, autism can cause hypersexuality in some cases), I don’t like the way Angel was depicted to ignore boundaries, but aside from that, he sometimes can be relatable, but I do wish he had more personality, cause I try to bury it underneath my weird obsessions and not make intimacy my main interest (at least in front of others.) I tend to channel it into drawings to prevent myself from acting on it, but if I didn’t do that I probably would be worse than Angel.
@chaoscreature you are incredibly right for saying this, as someone with hypersexually and autism, most of the time I bury those thoughts by believing if I do, watch, or even draw certain things but keep it to myself, it's completely okay because I'm not acting it out fully, but it's not, and I've been doing things that have helped me, like I haven't went on a p... site in over 2 years and I just recently deleted Twitter of my device. But angel does none of that, he expresses and shows it as a way to cope.
@@realchannalemmadeery9382 I’m so proud of you!! I’m currently only four months, but every day counts!
I thought it was more the messages around his behavior show a lack of maturity/awareness in depicting issues of abuse. Like making his hypersexuality/drug use a constant gag reel, like it is supposed to be irreverent, and then turning it around and making it tragic with underlying abuse, but also fetishizing that abuse guised as irreverence, with only a thin veneer of substance about real issues people deal with.
U didn't watch the video
also a victim of this bullshit i also feel hurt by the way angel dust was written
I hope you are doing ok
As much as I love Hazbin Hotel, I completely agree here. I also think that Angel's SA storyline being a justification for him sexually harassing other characters is tone-deaf, and frankly, unacceptable. I know too many people who think their trauma defines them and is thus a justification for their actions when it's not, it's only an explanation.
Your opinion matters because you know what your talking about and know the struggles. ❤
This is the most well spoken commentary on Angel Dust and the underlying issues with his character.
As a sexual assault victim, I coped in similar ways to him, but something about how he was represented felt… off. I genuinely had to stop watching because I almost had a panic attack at the Poison music video. (Despite personally enjoying the song and feeling seen through the lyrics.)
That being said, I do love Hazbin Hotel and I enjoy Angel as a character, but I agree that there are big issues with how he is written. Props to you for speaking up about it!!
I had a similar experience throughout the show , but finding characters portraying hypersexuality is just so hard . Angel is by far not the best written but he's what we have :/
Anyways I wish u a great day buddy
@@S.I.U. Maybe one day we'll be able to look back and say: "Yes this is kind of a bad portrayal, but it paved the way for better portrayals that didn't have a fetishiser(s) on the creative team".
If nothing else, the discussion that Angel Dust provokes is useful.
@@Barbeque_Sauce_1234 yeah that's what I hope
I hope you are doing ok
As a gay guy who is a victim of SA, I can say without a doubt that how Angel Dust acts outside of "work" is just a front, or a persona, that he uses to not get hurt more. He acts that way because he knows people already look down on him for being in the porn business and being a slut, so the persona he uses is to make it seem like that's all he is as to not get hurt anymore. That's why Husk was able to see through the rouse, and that's also why when Sir Pentious was being praised after the skit, Angel looked so upset and hurt- he genuinely wants to get better, but it's hard to when his soul is owned by one of the worst overlords in hell/his biggest abuser, and with the front he's been using, it keeps those trying to help him at bay and out of reach to actually do anything to save him. I'm not trying to start arguments, but this is just my perspective on the show coupled with my own experience, as I have 100% made a persona similar to help cope with the pain and not be hated for who I actually am, and it took me a few years to break that after I got away from my own abuser. Other people cope differently, but the way that Angel has been is a lot like my own experience with this subject.
Feel free to reply to this with your own take on it as I'm open to seeing new perspectives, I'm not looking for hate or to bring others down, I'm keeping an open mind and encourage anyone who reads this to share their thoughts.
i completely agree with this! angel is putting on a persona like this TO AVOID GETTING HURT. i can assume val only likes angel when he’s acting the way he does. even though he can be aggressive, he is also manipulative. from the voice messages, it’s clear. maybe Angel thinks that’s the only way people will actually like him and get praise from others, because of Val being the way he is. he genuinely wants to get better but i assume he’s been working for val for a while or long enough to forget real and genuine care. the thing is people thing he is instant going to get better. one, no. he’s been like this for years and it will take him a while to adjust to this completely new lifestyle of “being good? Or “being clean” because being all messed up would be encouraged by Val. and two, it’s rushed BECAUSE there are other plot lines and there are only 8 episodes. sorry for the rant but just wanted to get that off my chest anyways. i completely agree! everyone has different ways of coping.
@@mikunakanonenderoid I love your view on this as well! Thank you for giving your feedback, it's really nice to get other's opinions on Angel Dust as a character and how his life affects how he acts towards everything. Your words were really insightful, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comment ^^ Also, I love your profile picture!
Yes but it's done horrifically bad, that's the issue.
And the context itself of his life, the seriousness is so heavy out of nowhere then they destroy it by making him actively constantly joke about it. Yet we HAVE to cry for this asshole when he gets sad. Balance it out Viv!
Sure.
1) Never do we get to see that.
2) We never see him start to get even slightly better
3) A romantic relationship is the cure to sexual trauma and not the worst fucking thing you can ever do to yourself or another person when you are that fucking deep in denial.
no no, you’re on fire keep talking. I’m in the same boat, thought process, experience/orientation and all. Its just a faux self to stay safe-i think that was relatively a (dare i say good) decent part of what little writing they had. the explanation (to husk) was rather rushed, but what isn’t in life? and being rushed, you could feel he was overwhelmed. and when he broke? felt that too. compared to all the other stereotypes they gave angel, this one was for sure the least damaging (gay/sa survivor rep in media..) it wasn’t perfect, could’ve been wayyy better.. but what’s perfect anyways. sorry for the rant, i just really felt for what you were talking about.
Thank you for mentioning RENT! I’m a CSA survivor myself and I think it is disgusting how it’s handled in Hazbin Hotel. Like, I do believe to SOME extent that the concept of Angel having a soul contract where he can’t consent being a symbolism is a decent representation, but poison absolutely ruins this. I think a better representation of SA is a musical by the name of Spring Awakening. In it, a young girl, Wendla, falls in love with someone by the name of Melchior. The problem is, Wendla has no idea about the concept of sex. Because of this, Melchior goes on to assault her. This is also shown through a song, but the song is low and grimy, it truly shows how horrible this is. Poison is insensitive to the way it shows SA because it uses this super upbeat music during such a cruel situation. Thank you for pointing this out, you deserve so much more credit!
Damn… poor you. I would never wish that on my worst enemy.
I think the reason Poison is so "upbeat" is because Angel Dust is projecting or faking a lot of positivity for his image. I'd say it's that facade that breaks towards the end of the song and during "loser, baby". His positivity and flirtyness is probably a persona he puts on to deal with his situation and suppress unfavourable emotions. This is something some real people go through too, and so I find discrediting that entirely mildly problematic, though you're still allowed to disagree. I honestly never found the song to be upbeat, moreso an expression of misery badly masked as a dance song, especially with the lyrics. That's sorta the feeling it gives me. I still think they could've executed it better, though. The music _video_ is an absolute atrocity, and there I completely agree that it is just... unnaceptable.
Poison is supposed to be a coping mechanism god
@@Kyrikrliy o.o
@@cruellasdog I don’t consider aggressively dancing while getting r8ped is the best coping mechanism….
But I definitely get the, “Poisons upbeat song is used as a coping mechanism” thing….I just think the video is a bit weird.
To be fair, you can tell why angel dust is in hell, and its not cuz hes gay.
Like, i know gay men who r like this!! Exenstialists are the philosophers beleives that there is no escence that defines u, that u "become" a woman, a man, a queer person, a person of color, etc. They beleived these identities where assigned onto people and are social constructed. They started analysing media and the impacts it had on how people learned what "being [blank] means". And IT IS IMPERATIVE TO UNDERSTAND that the analysis was not a moral framework, and the issue only comes when the TOTALITY of media represents bad stereotypes. Like, i embody a few trans stereotypes, does that mean i should hide myself in order to prevent the cis people from "getting the wrong idea"? NO!! Like that infuriated me, there are barely any points in this video i actually agreed with
15:00 ikr the fetishizing problem is so obvious, but many people still choose not to see it.
The fucked up thing is that like 90% of the way to fix this problem is to just remove poison and like... 50% of his coming-on-to-others in the latter half of the runtime. Maybe have him stand up for Sir Pentious and not let him get assaulted either? Yknow. Have him be a little bit better now that he has a friend and a support system?
I mean Angel Dust *has* to earn his redemption. Not just play the victim.
as a queer and trans male victim of SA, i honestly have a love hate relationship with angel. i really like poison, and i feel like it did an alright job with portraying angel's feelings and experiences with Valentino, but i don't really like his character (mainly because of the gay stereotyping and the rushed character arc) and i feel like him in the pilot was way less sexualized and more of a likeable character.
I lost Vizzypop's respect for calling out her attempt to emulate South Park's style by excessively using profanity and sex jokes in a desperate bid to sound humorous.
What's truly sad is that she fails to grasp the concept behind South Park's humor, which, despite its crudeness, often stems from good intentions.
Instead of trying to replicate their style, she could have stuck to her own unique voice and ideas.
By copying South Park's brand of humor, delivery, and disregard for traditional storytelling, she ends up creating disjointed, "do whatever you want" type of episodes that abandon the original narrative, much like the pilots that have been forgotten.
I actually barely see and hear any profanity and sex jokes in SP, heck I barely hear swearing and I've seen alot of clips and episodes.
The whole point of South Park's swears is that they are children and often talking about things they don't understand and thats where the comedy comes from. In Hazbin Hotel theres no point to it theres no comedy attatched they are just expecting you to laugh at the swear itself
"She could have stuck to her own unique voice and ideas" - Unique ideas instead of cliches? That's where you'd run into a snag.
They clearly failed, They didnt even try to write a good gay character, At least SP tried with Craig and Tweek (and it worked)
As a victim of SA, seeing people cosplaying and dancing to scenes like poison which depicts rape-genuinely makes me feel sick. It's disheartening how many people fail to grasp the weight of this kind of trauma. It's rare to find shows or movies that portray SA with sensitivity or realism. (Baby Reindeer is one I'd highly recommend.) More often than not, it's downplayed or treated lightly, rather than exploring the true emotional and psychological turmoil survivors endure. We really need to call out not just Hazbin, but other shows and films that are blatantly disrespectful when it comes to handling this subject (GOT, Peaky Blinders, 13 Reasons Why, Blonde, etc.)
Writers should never feel entitled to depict SA so graphically when they havent experienced it themselves. If they had experienced anything like it, they wouldn’t present it so casually or exploitatively. What makes it worse is that many scripts seem to display an unsettling attraction to the opposite sex when writing about SA survivors-this applies to both male and female writers. It’s as if they include SA in their narratives either for shock value, or worse, for some twisted sense of gratification. A character like Angel Dust reeks of this kind of fetishization. I can’t believe how others haven’t noticed how blatant it is.
By far, the biggest issue with how SA is portrayed in media, using Angel Dust as an example, is the tendency to treat it as just a label/character trait. SA is not a personality trait. It's a deeply painful experience that someone is forced to endure, and it comes with lifelong emotional and psychological scars. Many writers seem to lack the empathy or understanding to represent that reality authentically. They treat SA as a plot device, rather than recognizing the very real, complex aftermath it leaves behind.
Blah Blah Blah, nothing but yapping
@@pjdixon6199 bro you are such a loser you've left 30 comments on this channel talking shit to others find somthing beter to do with your time
@@LiteStuff1 Who are you?
@@LiteStuff1 Also, “Beter”
Learn how to spell properly before you talk shit
Exactly, it's sexualized everytime and absolutely disgusting and traumatic to watch.
prime example of a good written character of abuse is guts.
Yes, and Anthy Himemiya from Utena!
Vueko from Made in Abyss as well. MiA is so good and people give it so much unnecessary shit without giving it a chance.
@darkvioletcloud the world building in it is God tier, and it's an amazing anime, but only if you can look past the fact that the author of the Manga is like really obviously a pedophile
@@viobliterator YESSS SOMEONE TALING ABOUT UTENA
@@darkvioletcloud I mean to be fair, it’s hard to look past the constant sexualization of children lol
Im telling you that Husk is definitely my favorite character.
0:25 I AM A SURGEON.
Edit: I realise how serious this video is and regret getting exited over this 😭
I AM A SURGEON DR HAN
Me when I am a surgeon:
I AM A SUREGON DOCTOR HAN!
DONT YOU HEARD I AM A SURGEON
You're so strong for this bro. I hope you're doin well. Your channel deserves a billion subs for this. Bless up bro. 🙏
The thing that makes me mad about Hazbin Hotel is how it paints abuse as something that's just ok and can be used for jokes. Male abuse especially is something we can't joke about. Male abuse and women abuse are equally bad but the one thing about male abuse that's worse than the experience a woman can have is how men can't find help as easily as a woman. From the abuse being played off by others to people just not believing the abused. Both straight and gay men can be sexually abused and I'm tired of media either ignoring the issue, or downplaying it so much it causes my stomach to churn. I have always felt this way about abuse despite never going through it, though I know others that have and even ended themselves over it. I refuse to just let another person be ignored like that. I wasn't enough to help them and when I did report their issues to other people most played it off or told them to man up. Great video. It explains how exactly I feel about angel dust.
When was Angel's abuse used as a joke?
@@leanashine the snake guy was dragged screaming into a room
@@leanashine what Joemama said.
My ex-girlfriend was completely obsessed with this show, loves it to pieces, teared up during Masquerade. I watched it with her when it came out because I wanted to be supportive, but MAN it was tough to watch basically any scene with Angel Dust as a gnc (now gay) man who has suffered abuse. We're still on good terms, so I wouldn't tell her this to her face, but whooo boy.
thank you for making this video!! its incredibly informative :]
it's such a shame that people [like vivziepop] don't treat sexual abuse with the weight it deserves.
This is just so untrue for a lot of people. Many people actually relate to Angel Dust and feel validated by the way the show depicts abuse
@@spampharos i’m sorry if my comment was offensive!! i understand that people can connect with him, and it’s not bad or harmful if they do.
@@spampharos yeah I'm a survivor myself and really fell the lack of hypersexual characters around media . Angel might not be the best but he's what we have
@@spampharos The statement about vivziepop is true though, she doesn’t treat the topic with the respect it deserves, because SA is used as a joke both in hazbin and Helluva boss. Regardless of if you thought episode 4 handled the subject well or not, it doesn’t really excuse the fact that the show turns around and treats it as a silly quirky joke later on.
@@spampharos nothing they said disagrees with this, she doesnt treat it as what it is, she has made s/a into a joke multiple times and has someone on the team who has a grape fetish, plus, just because people relate to a character doesnt instantly mean they have zero flaws
My biggest problem with it is the way the show usually treats sa. I mean when Angel is harassing Husk (which the show even acknowledges) it’s funny. When Sir Pentious says “I’m going to have sex with everyone!” (as a running gag) and then gets dragged into a private room screaming and clawing at the floor it’s funny. But no, when Angel’s being abused it’s not funny. I’m a fan of both this show and helluva boss, and the humor normally lands for me. I could really do with the sa jokes tho. They’re not funny. Honestly that thing with Sir Pentious getting dragged away really upset me. It would’ve been funnier if it just ended with him saying that and everyone looked at him funny or smth. Don’t do that to my poor snake… or poor Moxxie
yeah, it's giving a lot of whiplash with how SA is portrayed as a joke in the show, unless the victim is Angel.
yes I hated that scene with Sir Pentious. I don't know how the hell they decided that was a good idea.
Thank you for making this video because I always felt so iffy about Angel Dust.
As a sa victim it felt so wrong founding out that one of storyboard artist is literally into r@pe, AND THE FACT VIVIE IS JUST DEFENDING THEM IS JUST FUCKING GROSS. It’s even more gross that artist themself hasn’t experience R@pe makes me sick to my stomach.
I’m so sorry that you had to go through that dear.
Keep fighting, I’m proud of you and your progress
into rape? what 💀thats crazyy
That's exactly what made me stay away from her. Keep surviving, friend.
ew…. brutha ew… it’s basically.. “damn 🍇 that’s pretty hot I kinda *want* that to happen” like?
If written correctly, South Park would make this 10 times better.
As a victim of sa, i actually like angel dust. Hes just desperately coping with a situation he physically is not able to get out of. All im getting here is "how dare you cope by trying to make yourself think nothings wrong by leaning into it." Which is exactly how i coped! I get how the other sa survivors in the comments dont get it, because they didnt cope that way, but they dont take into account that everyone copes different. Even part of the poison song described the way i protected myself from worse abuse perfectly.
Yeah, people here are assuming that an intentional dissonance is an accident, and condemning said dissonance as inherently wrong. Is Angel Dust perfectly written? Fuck no, but Poison and Loser, Baby succeed at what they were trying to do, and people rarely engage with those songs as what they were meant to be, specially Poison, because, well, it's one of the few aspects of HH that I'd actually call subtle.
o.o
Thats good but Vizie portrays other characters being assaulted and uses it as a joke.
if he knows what its like why is he flirting with someone that doesnt want to be flirted with lmfao
You forgot about the young and highly impressionable audience who, if they can be saved from them, should be saved from harmful coping mechanisms in favor of healthy ones
8:45 This is basically the ideas like the Movie "Cuties" where they tried to make a "message" About the Dangers of it but instead just did both at the same time of Increasing and decreasing
I agree but cuties was with real children though
@@LeaveMeAlone3omgIgotloggedoutaalthough mush. Mush worst same principle
As a fan myself, I agree with you 100% I can't really say I have stopped liking the series, but I believe it's important to think critically about even the things you enjoy, I admire you for talking about a subject that's difficult for you, great video!
Gosh, I'm so used to creators sugar coating their opinions so carefully that that sometimes I lose track of what they were initially trying to say-
It's a breath of fresh air hearing someone voice their opinions straight and honestly without sugar-coating, apologising, or tip-toing around the issue..
I came across this horrendous tweet about someone putting you on blast on Twitter. (Or X if you’re a Musker) so I decided to come down and have an in depth look and find out why so many people are hating on you unnecessarily and I have to say.. I agree with like.. all of your points.
First of all I sincerely apologies for the fact you have been SA’d. my sympathies to everyone in this comment section who has had to deal with such a vulnerable and horrific event.
And you’re right. The character of Angel dust in Hazbin is fundamentally flawed because every aspect about him that people could relate to is almost immediately undermined by his “silly quirky, sing song” persona.
It’s actually quite interested to hear everyone’s point of view about this and I’m sorry it took such a dirty thing on Twitter to get me to acknowledge your rather insightful content on a topic of which I was previously blinded about.
Thank you very much and again I’m very sorry. 💚
And you know it’s really bad when fans (like myself!) are defending this guy from the TOXIC fans!
i interpreted poison as a cry for help that had to stay fabulous for the sake of appearances
but maybe thats just me
also loser baby was pretty outta nowhere and did downplay ad issues cause husk went from gambler to bar tender like its such a nightmare lol
Husker also sold his soul, not to Val like Angel but to Alastor. I imagine he experiences physical and coercive abuse from Alastor which has been hinted in the show, rather than SA which Angel does.
However I never saw loser baby as downplaying, I saw it as Husker saying, ‘we both have issues, it’s ok to admit it and show it, and we can work through it together’, hence the “if we eat shit together things will end up differently” line.
Not saying your interpretation is wrong, I’m respectful of your opinion, I’ve found it incredibly interesting to see how others see the show based on their own experiences.
@@spir I do like your optimistic interpretation more lol
its a nice thought we dont have to have the same issues or trauma 1 up each other to be supportive
@@pandamoniumsan right! It’s cute :)
To be honest I don't think anyone below the age of 17 should be watching this
and yet the show is written as if the target audience is tweenagers lol
@@dpkave awful isn't it
@@GMan-bn3tbyeah, (I saw fourth graders watching it)
@@TheCheese_Lover insane....
@@dpkave It's clearly written for adults how is it written as if it's for teenagers?
thank you for making this, you worded this video so well. i really wish sa was taken seriously by writers and not just something to slap onto their characters :(
i kinda believe angeldust's entire existence is polarizing entirely because there is no 100% perfect way to represent an overwhelmingly large amount of people who experienced the same kind of abuse. some victims think he is perfect representation, while others believe he is the furthest thing from that. there's no easy way to tell that angeldust is or isn't good representation because nobody feels or copes the same way about their abuse and it could probably influence how one thinks of the fourth episode as a whole.
it'd be easier if we all just collectively decided "angeldust writing bad" but it's such a complex issue that we can't really go further than "he's a polarizing character."
sorry, i don't really know how to speak on these things and i may have worded myself poorly here, and i'm not a victim so take everything i say with a mountain of salt.
Its different for everyone exactly my point someone out their could cope the same way as angel what then you gonna say THEIR ERITING IS BAD? you can’t say that abt someone who’s real
I can’t wait for the day when my oc gets the message of bad writing bc I make my ocs have parts of me in them
For me, his character was a good idea but the whole problem was the execution (like the song etc..) plus some toxic trait (like he sexually harassed husk and the other staff when he was a SA victim) I feel like the character have no personality his just like “I’m a drug addict with trauma and loves doing sex jokes” even if you tell me it’s a mechanism or idk about his SA I feel more like that he was a poorly representation and a stereotype(the reason was literally in the video)
I want to add but when a lot of SA or CSA victim said it’s a bad representation I think it’s true (cause they know even it not everybody act same about trauma and all) but when I see so much of the victim in the comments said it’s bad then it’s bad no ? They feel uncomfortable with his character I think there a reason for it.
@@Kiwio-m4d I’m a sexual harassment victim and SA victim and angel represents me perfectly so if it’s more of who the person is
@@Lemonzzzthesilkwing Sorry but I saw in angel’s hypersexualisation a gay cliche and I think that what he is (like the ultra effeminate and driven by sex) plus It don’t act like SA victim sometimes I’m not a victim like you and I hope you’re okay today but he definitely not a good representation because I feel like the cartoon is not really serious about it (like in a episode they literally joke about sir pantious being rape or literally angel sexual harassing other or this freaking song draw/directed (idk) by a rape fetishist) or kind of hypocritical about it plus his bad because he is a stereotypical character and that give a bad idea for people about sex worker or SA victim and I don’t know why we have to take him in serious sometimes I just can’t 💀 he act so much like a victim (and sometimes he is right like with val) but with husk I just don’t understand- And a lot of young people love the show and praise for his character when he is just a poorly written and stereotypical ans make the cartoon more edgy-
12:57 Another example of this is how in EPIC: The Musical there are multiple songs referencing SA, but most of which have either an upset POV from the victim (and song told from the abu$3r so part of it sounds sort of aggravated/“upbeat”) (upbeat for lack of a better term). Hold them down, an unreleased song from the musical, has a very eerie, scary vibe to it while they are talking about Penelope (the victim).
Fucking Joker 2 represented SA better than Hazbin Hotel did
Wait really? I haven't watched it.
Didn't know that neither...?!
AMEEEEENNNN!!!!!! IT WAS A BRIEF MENTION AND IT WASNT A PART OF HIS ENTIRE FUCKING CHARACTER BUT IT WAS SEEN HOW IT AFFECTED HIM. i loved joker 2 so much ugh
Dont plan on seeing it at all, what happened?
@@IM_BILL_CIPHER_TRUST_ME_BRO in court it was mentioned arthur fleck went through sa :(((
This was insanely good at getting right to the point of what exactly is happening that’s wrong, and how to change that with examples of how better media handled it. I just hope if anything the creator can see your video too. Thank you so much for talking about this as someone with sexual trauma as well, this show was really upsetting with how they portrayed this.
Viv doesnt care, she knows what criticisms we make and refuses to consider it, seriously go back to how she said she values good faith criticism and look at her writing in Hazbin Hotel and look at what people had issues with in Hazbin and how Full Moon and Apology Tour is.
The fact that this pissed Twitter off is actually concerning
You arent serious
@IM_BILL_CYPHER_TRUST_ME_BRO it is unfortunately a real thing, to a point where some are trying to discredit OP and their own trauma regarding SA because how DARE anyone call this episode bad.
You know: the same episode who allowed a rape fetish artist who ships ValAngel board and choreograph Poison, the same episode that calls Angel a washed up loser who needs to suck it up cuz Keith David Cat 2.0 also is dealing with an overlord (who only owns his soul and hasn't been subjected to the rape and abuse Angel goes through almost daily).
@@shadetee234holy shit Twitter is disgusting, people will joke about other platforms being worse than Twitter but if you post this on like Reddit or, hell, iFunny of all places, there would be more positive than negative
@IM_BILL_CIPHER_TRUST_ME_BRO what is this even supposed to mean literally yes I am how am I not
@@shadetee234 the art on your channel looks really good
In Helluva Boss, remember the episode where Verosika was first introduced? It was meant to be a joke that Moxxie was being sexually harassed by her. This is much like Sir Pentious' case in the club. Vivzie NEEDS to stop making SA a "joke".
Or just... don't make every real serious problem like a joke for one character but then make it a serious thing for another character. Really though Vivizepop and the other writers really need to stop with this hypocrisy crap that is going on in these shows.
@@mr.hayaibear Yeah , though I think that most of the Viv drama is fake and total bulls**t , she does not seem to know how to write.
5:02 You have your boundaries and they shall be respected :)
yes
YEAH!!!!
Yesss
@@Severine8146 I see you
Absolutely
I’m sorry to those who find Angel Dust and any Vivzie project triggering and upsetting. But as an SA survivor who dealt with it by being hyper sexual, I see myself in Angel and Poison really helps me work through my feelings. As someone who was in a toxic relationship and had trouble coming to terms with what happened to me was SA, seeing it so brutally on display and getting that gut reaction of “that’s not right” helped me. This doesn’t mean your feelings aren’t valid, but maybe this representation just isn’t for you.
If you want to see “better” representation, create what you want to see. It’s the best way to get what you want out in the world. Just my thoughts.
Thank you. Angel Dust is *A* representation. He doesn’t have to be good for everyone. And some people are calling others “gross” for people relating him which isn’t fair. Just because he isn’t good rep for one person doesn’t mean he won’t be for someone else. Everyone has different experiences and traumas. If he’s not a mirror to you, then find someone else who is and allow others who appreciate his story to feel seen by him.
That's valid! But let's not disregard the fact how people behind the storyboard treat this matter too! because... 🤢 (They really saw it as a f3tish material)
And the obvious double standards on other character (Sir Pentious one is treated as a big fat joke)
But as for you, i really hope you (and other survivors in this comment section) are doing better! 🙏🏻
You know what? If the writers were consistent and depicted every SA against the characters suffered by it regardless of gender seriously then I would be the first to defend these type of scenes because I believe in awareness of taking SA seriously regardless of gender. Too bad the writers had to have double-standards though, because they could have defended created a message that goes ahead of our time.
"Like a Kesha music video" Was brutal, ngl 💀
I agree with everything, and I would like to add the portrayal of BOTH of the main mlm ships in Helluva Boss (Vivzi's other work) normalizes power imbalance. The person who is objectively more powerful (socially, economically, sometimes physically/materially) is NEVER questioned, in fact they are portrayed as a benefactor or even a victim, their control of the other person is equated to love and romance, and the power imbalance is never acknowledged as a negative thing - outside of angsty emotional climaxes that fix nothing about the inherent problems in the relationship. I have been in abusive relationships and the canonical ships that are portrayed positively in Helluva Boss are MORE realistically abusive than Angel Dust's story.
Genuinely made me uncomfortable to see that exact thing go on for so long... Felt like I was being gaslit when he kept insisting that Nooo Blitz is just denying his loooove for Stolas if *only* he let Stolas have his way and stopped being so gosh darn uncomfortable over certain aspects of their relationship everything would be just perfect!!
Why do some of my friends even like Valentino? I don’t watch the show, but from what I can see, he has ZERO redeeming qualities. Especially since he is an SA’r.
Wait really?!?
I really like characters like VOX and alastor a lot more than him!
He literally DESTROYED angeldust’s life?!?
Same reason that people like characters like the Joker or Darth Vader, people are allowed to like Villain characters dude
because he's a good villain/antagonist, it's like liking Mahito from JJK or Doflamingo from One Piece
ditch your friends
How are we supposed to know bruv?
I get secondhand embarrassment from watching Hazbin Hotel.
Womp Womp
@@pjdixon6199 Blud is using womp womp in the year of our lord 2024
Too bad it’s getting three more seasons, cry harder
@@TimmyTheTinman … I’m not crying? I’m just saying that I need to watch a single episode in multiple parts since it’s a little hard to bare witness to.
@@Lethargy_Lottie sounds like a you problem
Why do people even like this show
It feels like a middle schooler's Tumblr fanfic
It all about sex and kinks
Fr, he gets kind of boring and ripetitive overtime
I have middle school friends and they don’t even like it xD
It goes out of its way to titillate that exact tumblr fanfic teenager crowd which likes sexymen, it's a daydream come true for them.
A big part of the audience is kids under 18 getting into it. And many of them did experience SA at a young age or other traumas. Thus they aren't aware of the flaws with the show, therefore they get wrapped into it because they see their favorite show talking about something that happened to them. Good or bad presentation be damned.
The unfortunate reality is that the show does attract a lot of minors despite being an adult animated series.
There's a lot of adult fans as well but most times the adult fans for the most part recognize the flaws with the show while still enjoying it to some degree.
If the writing and timing of things were better, and if there were more slow paced songs for the serious scenes and moments. Then we would be golden in all honesty.
Because the audience is middle schoolers who use tumblr. They have kids under the age of 12 in their VA Q&As
Thank you for the last part. Angel Dust is my favorite character and im glad you acknowledged that people can still like the character. So many people just say how bad the show is without saying that its ok for people to still like the show and it's characters. I wish Angel was a better representation of abuse victims.
I’m a gay dude who’s been SAd and I think the framing of Valentino as just a one note caricature of an abuser is so hard to take seriously. Abusers are people with layers other than just “I’m evil”. The layers don’t make them less intimidating it actually makes them more intimidating because when you pick apart how they operate, it shows you why it’s so easy to end up as a victim of someone like this. Griffith in berserk is a sexual abuser but it actually explains how he and the people he’s hurt got to that point. He’s not just an evil entity that popped up one day. He’s not rational whatsoever but there’s an exploration of why this ended up here that’s not just “this is his job and he’s just like that”. I think the fear is that writing him more fleshed out might lead to people accusing the creators of trying to justify his actions but if you can’t write a fleshed out villain because of that then maybe focus on making a deeper exploration of Angel Dust’s journey to this point instead. I know they want to do this probably in the future of the show but you can’t introduce something like this and not expect people to be confused when the extent of the exploration is “you’re a loser, but it’s ok👍”
The problem is that Valentino is more of a fetish character than an antagonist
@@Birdyboys that’s a great point
I mean, knowing the creator, I don't think they would be able to give the abusers layers without them being framed as a victim too. Just look at all the other examples of abusive behavior coming from characters we are supposed to sympathize and root for, like Angel Dust harassing every male character on screen and Stolas harassing Blitz at every opportunity, no matter the crowd, then guilt-tripping and gaslighting him when he doesn't respond to his advances like he wants.
So its not something you are born with.
@@dannydestroyer huh? What’s that supposed to mean?
I agree with most your points, tho you say he’s “one of the only gay characters” despite the show being largely queer
Literally the only straight one at the hotel is niffty
she meant that angel is the only MLM character in the show (MLM = Man Loving Men)
She meant "he's the only gay man" being bi isn't being gay (charlie) and a vaggie being a lesbian,Husk Pansexual and alastor aro ace,
Aren't like 99% of them MLM?
Yes, Gay can be used as an umbrella term, but they are saying that Angel is gay as he is attracted to strictly men.
i kind of feel like i can connect the way angel acts to either hypersexiality to HPD but as someone who does have histrionic pd, i wish they handled it better🙁 i haven't seen a lot of sa rep in media and i kind of prefer that it would be kept that way. everyone's experience is different, everyone copes differently and the way one person copes can be SO different from the way another one does and then when the question of "when will this character get redemption? will they heal?" comes up the fastest and most simple way to round the topic up would be to make a 2nd pov say "trauma makes you stronger".
what hazbin hotel failed to do when trying to expose its viewers to such a topic is to make it seem serious and genuine, which I'm so glad someone finally covered because poison was a painful watch. a good example for a song about sa coming from a victim point of view would probably be 'daddy' by korn especially because of how personal it is for the writer, everything that is written comes from a perspective of someone trying to explain their experience and tell their story, while poison makes it all into a fun and silly music video where in one scene he dances and the other you can see him getting ab*sed.
r@pe and sa in general is a very personal topic, you can explain any crime with self defense, poor home life so you have to steal to survive or crucial situation like speeding to get your pregnant wife to the hospital (for example) but there's no reason for sa to be justified in court, if a person does such a thing its purely because they wanted to. yet it still gets treated poorly by authority and people twisted this term so much to the point that victims had to pray for someone to finally believe them (another example for that would be Timothy Heller) - writing both a victim and a culprit who can perfectly fit into the most basic explanation of sa is very difficult and if done so suggested to have a victim doing so instead of someone like vivziepop trying to represent it.
thank you for putting into words what bothered me about Angel Dust
This is EXACTLY what gives me the ick about this show and his portrayal
As someone who went down the vivziepop rabbit hole, it is NO surprise that she sucks at writing considering she stolen the idea of angel dust and others from a close friend who was helping her
Do you have proof of this?
@@pjdixon6199 ruclips.net/video/DwRb4ydYTdQ/видео.htmlsi=LPLzudT9Gw11rtRV
they covered it completely with evidence
@@pjdixon6199 ruclips.net/video/DwRb4ydYTdQ/видео.htmlsi=oAWQNgVHfoizclUp
@@pjdixon6199 i keep replying with the link but for some reason it wont show up here
It’s fake , most of the characters in Hazbin , including Angel were made when she was in high school , the only character she stole from him was a zoophobia character , and she changed the design after the friend told her , if you want more information , go watch Ayy Lmao’s video “The truth behind Vivziepop”
4:27 i have subtitles on and when you said "vivziepop" the subtitles said "vivy poop" LMAO
hell nahh 💀💀your subtitals are wild
Vivziepoop