8 MD is brutal. Even when saturated with chaff, hits get through quickly. Once models start dropping, that damage boost ends up being irrelevant. Still like the unit since they can crump dwarves like nobody's business, but I rarely use the unstoppable choppas. Someone else said to use it on the charge, so I maybe I can practice using it for the first few seconds of engagement then switching it off as soon as the charge bonus wears out.
I'd make sure to adjust for what I'm fighting. Modified 86 Weapon Strength means Empire Swordsmen should die outright to almost every hit on the initial charge. A lot of units might have infantry just barely surviving that wouldn't if you use the ability in that case.
Have to agree. If they halved the penalty down to -12, that would be much more usable, especially with veterancy and Grimgor's unique immortulz armor scrap upgrade.
In multiplayer unstopabble choppas are not even an overkill for most tier 1 infantry units, is a weird hability that only work in campaing, where you can buff black orcs weapon streanght with techs, upgrades and lords passive habilities and skills, where In multiplayer, there is no way of that, and also, is an hability you can combine with the charge bonus to add a lot of extra power, just, dont charge against things with expert charge or units that, will fight back pretty good or, counter charge like minotaurs or ogres or any monster infantry meant to face directly enemies
Very cool unit, obviously. I like their new damage boost capability- allows them to really burst down powerful opponents. I would make small changes to both types of Black Orcs- their melee stats are well below their elite infantry status- I believe that MA and MD should be 36/44 for Black Orcs with Shields and 42/34 for Great Weapons. Also, I would accentuate their new abilities- add 10-20% damage resistance to Immovable Bulwark, since Shields variant will literally do no damage at MA of 10. Add MA of 6-8 to Unstoppable choppas, since Great Weapon version will have MD of 8 when the ability is active and even the Zombies will hit them consistently. Otherwise, this is a staple heavy infantry option for the Greenskins.
MA is indeed low for an elite infantry...but we did just see them smash swordmasters, a anti-infantry specific, armor piercing, elite infantry...I don't think black orcs need buffs as they won a match where, because of the opponents specialization, they should have lost. (as black orcs are unspecified, armor piercing, elite infantry) and because its greenskins with their battlefield power that massively boosts MA, on top of having a massive charge bonus for an infantry unit, they can absolutely tear their way through tank class infantry like the chosen like was shown in the beginning of the vid.
@@conductiv7113 i don't know if they can beat Swordmasters- with unstoppable choppas their MA is still only 38, while their MD drops to 8. Swordmasters have an MD of 48 and MA of 68, with Martial Mastery and anti-infantry bonus active. That means that Swordmasters will score with literally every hit and Black Orcs will whiff on quite a few of their strikes. Sure, they could get some favorable R&G rolls, but most fights will probably go to Swordmasters.
I have to wonder if they aren't going to data farm info on gameplay and adjust this unit slightly as we go. They're expecting Waagh to make up for the stats in places, probably...
I like to use them like the Thebens used their best against the Spartans. Ill load up one flank i think is vulnerable with a pair of black orcs and my boar boy bigguns. Once lines connect, i try and crush one flank to roll up the rest. And very little can stand up to boar boys and black orcs boosted by '"ere we go." They make a fantastic frontline in general but if you cant afford a full line and have to make do with bigguns or boys for the price, this is a good way to use them. One precice point you want to break.
@@OffToBattle Life is easy with Black Orcs to be honest lol. Its why I love em so much. But the tactic works really well in Rome 2, at the very least. If you combine the Theben strategy with the roman Triarii line rotation, you get good results. Send your less valuable unit up first to soak the charge and deal damage back. Wait for a bit until your first line gets damaged, but not too damaged, usually like 3/4ths or half damaged, and then push your next line up through the first one. Once both your first and second unit are in contact with the enemy, pull the initial unit out and let them recover morale and vigor. The second, stronger, fresh unit will now tear through the weakened enemy unit and you'll end up with two free units in the middle of your line. Works well in city chokes too. Anywhere where flanking with infantry isn't going to be the easiest thing. It only works in older total wars because unit mass isn't really a thing? It's there, but it doesnt affect your allied units as much as it does in Warhammer. You can easily push infantry through your own infantry in Rome 2. It's not that good in Shogun 2, retreating from an enemy unit deals so much more damage to your units than in later games, FoTS you don't really get into many melee brawls, and I don't play RoTS to tell you if its any different. Don't know about pre-Shogun TW's though. I can never get to grips with the camera system long enough to play.
Well in multiplayer you'd get destroyed using it, though it also has no relevance to ranged vulnerability (it's no worse). Campaign... you'll find places for it a-plenty.
8 MD is brutal. Even when saturated with chaff, hits get through quickly. Once models start dropping, that damage boost ends up being irrelevant. Still like the unit since they can crump dwarves like nobody's business, but I rarely use the unstoppable choppas. Someone else said to use it on the charge, so I maybe I can practice using it for the first few seconds of engagement then switching it off as soon as the charge bonus wears out.
I'd make sure to adjust for what I'm fighting. Modified 86 Weapon Strength means Empire Swordsmen should die outright to almost every hit on the initial charge. A lot of units might have infantry just barely surviving that wouldn't if you use the ability in that case.
Agree
MD that low is just a death sentence.
Have to agree. If they halved the penalty down to -12, that would be much more usable, especially with veterancy and Grimgor's unique immortulz armor scrap upgrade.
I am having fun with the one in Grimgor's starting army with the Immurtulz Banner.
Don't care if they take damage if they can't die
Fun's definitely the point with them.
Their only real weakness is that they're so slow that sometimes other greenskin units can get crumpin' faster and earlier.
It does happen. Enough blunderbusses and yeah...
Very likely to be overkill to use their chopper damage ability against another infantry unit. Best to trigger against large juicy HP single entities.
That's a thought I had too. I'm going to test it out in Grimgor's campaign more sometimes but my current one is like, turn 3?
In multiplayer unstopabble choppas are not even an overkill for most tier 1 infantry units, is a weird hability that only work in campaing, where you can buff black orcs weapon streanght with techs, upgrades and lords passive habilities and skills, where In multiplayer, there is no way of that, and also, is an hability you can combine with the charge bonus to add a lot of extra power, just, dont charge against things with expert charge or units that, will fight back pretty good or, counter charge like minotaurs or ogres or any monster infantry meant to face directly enemies
Very cool unit, obviously. I like their new damage boost capability- allows them to really burst down powerful opponents. I would make small changes to both types of Black Orcs- their melee stats are well below their elite infantry status- I believe that MA and MD should be 36/44 for Black Orcs with Shields and 42/34 for Great Weapons. Also, I would accentuate their new abilities- add 10-20% damage resistance to Immovable Bulwark, since Shields variant will literally do no damage at MA of 10. Add MA of 6-8 to Unstoppable choppas, since Great Weapon version will have MD of 8 when the ability is active and even the Zombies will hit them consistently. Otherwise, this is a staple heavy infantry option for the Greenskins.
MA is indeed low for an elite infantry...but we did just see them smash swordmasters, a anti-infantry specific, armor piercing, elite infantry...I don't think black orcs need buffs as they won a match where, because of the opponents specialization, they should have lost. (as black orcs are unspecified, armor piercing, elite infantry) and because its greenskins with their battlefield power that massively boosts MA, on top of having a massive charge bonus for an infantry unit, they can absolutely tear their way through tank class infantry like the chosen like was shown in the beginning of the vid.
@@conductiv7113 i don't know if they can beat Swordmasters- with unstoppable choppas their MA is still only 38, while their MD drops to 8. Swordmasters have an MD of 48 and MA of 68, with Martial Mastery and anti-infantry bonus active. That means that Swordmasters will score with literally every hit and Black Orcs will whiff on quite a few of their strikes. Sure, they could get some favorable R&G rolls, but most fights will probably go to Swordmasters.
I have to wonder if they aren't going to data farm info on gameplay and adjust this unit slightly as we go. They're expecting Waagh to make up for the stats in places, probably...
It's a thought. I was torn when I activated the stance during the Waagh because those Black Orcs took a ton of damage, so it's case by case.
My bonus footage had mine squeak out a win against some (multiplayer default stats). It didn't look easy, heh
I like to use them like the Thebens used their best against the Spartans. Ill load up one flank i think is vulnerable with a pair of black orcs and my boar boy bigguns. Once lines connect, i try and crush one flank to roll up the rest. And very little can stand up to boar boys and black orcs boosted by '"ere we go."
They make a fantastic frontline in general but if you cant afford a full line and have to make do with bigguns or boys for the price, this is a good way to use them. One precice point you want to break.
The Theban tactic is an extremely solid one. I had a hard time using it in historical games, but I didn't have Black Orcs, did I?
@@OffToBattle Life is easy with Black Orcs to be honest lol. Its why I love em so much.
But the tactic works really well in Rome 2, at the very least. If you combine the Theben strategy with the roman Triarii line rotation, you get good results.
Send your less valuable unit up first to soak the charge and deal damage back. Wait for a bit until your first line gets damaged, but not too damaged, usually like 3/4ths or half damaged, and then push your next line up through the first one. Once both your first and second unit are in contact with the enemy, pull the initial unit out and let them recover morale and vigor. The second, stronger, fresh unit will now tear through the weakened enemy unit and you'll end up with two free units in the middle of your line. Works well in city chokes too. Anywhere where flanking with infantry isn't going to be the easiest thing.
It only works in older total wars because unit mass isn't really a thing? It's there, but it doesnt affect your allied units as much as it does in Warhammer. You can easily push infantry through your own infantry in Rome 2. It's not that good in Shogun 2, retreating from an enemy unit deals so much more damage to your units than in later games, FoTS you don't really get into many melee brawls, and I don't play RoTS to tell you if its any different. Don't know about pre-Shogun TW's though. I can never get to grips with the camera system long enough to play.
Their weapon damage was nerfed significantly in the campaign though
How was it nerfed? Or am I not going back far enough and only looking at patch 5.3 to see if they had a difference?
Use unstoppable choppas on charges and waghh to increase the pain.
Even if it's just tactically for some of the time, that's a lot of pain to bring.
Merry zogging Christmas! I haven't used the new active skill yet. It gets roasted by a lot of youtubers but thats probably by multiplayer.players.
Well in multiplayer you'd get destroyed using it, though it also has no relevance to ranged vulnerability (it's no worse). Campaign... you'll find places for it a-plenty.