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That's a take many people have.

How was it nerfed? Or am I not going back far enough and only looking at patch 5.3 to see if they had a difference?

@@OffToBattle There was like +10 armor piercing damage for black orc, the lord skill use to give 20% weapon damage, now it's like 12%+ 4 attack, I can't remember the third one there was a tech that give all orc infantry a big weapon damage buff, now it's like 5% or something. Wish I have a spreadsheet

It does happen. Enough blunderbusses and yeah...

The Theban tactic is an extremely solid one. I had a hard time using it in historical games, but I didn't have Black Orcs, did I?

@@OffToBattle Life is easy with Black Orcs to be honest lol. Its why I love em so much. But the tactic works really well in Rome 2, at the very least. If you combine the Theben strategy with the roman Triarii line rotation, you get good results. Send your less valuable unit up first to soak the charge and deal damage back. Wait for a bit until your first line gets damaged, but not too damaged, usually like 3/4ths or half damaged, and then push your next line up through the first one. Once both your first and second unit are in contact with the enemy, pull the initial unit out and let them recover morale and vigor. The second, stronger, fresh unit will now tear through the weakened enemy unit and you'll end up with two free units in the middle of your line. Works well in city chokes too. Anywhere where flanking with infantry isn't going to be the easiest thing. It only works in older total wars because unit mass isn't really a thing? It's there, but it doesnt affect your allied units as much as it does in Warhammer. You can easily push infantry through your own infantry in Rome 2. It's not that good in Shogun 2, retreating from an enemy unit deals so much more damage to your units than in later games, FoTS you don't really get into many melee brawls, and I don't play RoTS to tell you if its any different. Don't know about pre-Shogun TW's though. I can never get to grips with the camera system long enough to play.

I'd make sure to adjust for what I'm fighting. Modified 86 Weapon Strength means Empire Swordsmen should die outright to almost every hit on the initial charge. A lot of units might have infantry just barely surviving that wouldn't if you use the ability in that case.

Agree MD that low is just a death sentence.

Have to agree. If they halved the penalty down to -12, that would be much more usable, especially with veterancy and Grimgor's unique immortulz armor scrap upgrade.

That's a thought I had too. I'm going to test it out in Grimgor's campaign more sometimes but my current one is like, turn 3?

In multiplayer unstopabble choppas are not even an overkill for most tier 1 infantry units, is a weird hability that only work in campaing, where you can buff black orcs weapon streanght with techs, upgrades and lords passive habilities and skills, where In multiplayer, there is no way of that, and also, is an hability you can combine with the charge bonus to add a lot of extra power, just, dont charge against things with expert charge or units that, will fight back pretty good or, counter charge like minotaurs or ogres or any monster infantry meant to face directly enemies

OK. I'm doing Krimson Killers next since Rivkin requested it and it makes sense to do that, then maybe a couple of overdue Kislev units, then Savage Orcs. After that I can do both varieties of Arrer Boyz. I've seen people bring up the issue re "no backline to protect". It's worth covering.

MA is indeed low for an elite infantry...but we did just see them smash swordmasters, a anti-infantry specific, armor piercing, elite infantry...I don't think black orcs need buffs as they won a match where, because of the opponents specialization, they should have lost. (as black orcs are unspecified, armor piercing, elite infantry) and because its greenskins with their battlefield power that massively boosts MA, on top of having a massive charge bonus for an infantry unit, they can absolutely tear their way through tank class infantry like the chosen like was shown in the beginning of the vid.

@@conductiv7113 i don't know if they can beat Swordmasters- with unstoppable choppas their MA is still only 38, while their MD drops to 8. Swordmasters have an MD of 48 and MA of 68, with Martial Mastery and anti-infantry bonus active. That means that Swordmasters will score with literally every hit and Black Orcs will whiff on quite a few of their strikes. Sure, they could get some favorable R&G rolls, but most fights will probably go to Swordmasters.

I have to wonder if they aren't going to data farm info on gameplay and adjust this unit slightly as we go. They're expecting Waagh to make up for the stats in places, probably...

It's a thought. I was torn when I activated the stance during the Waagh because those Black Orcs took a ton of damage, so it's case by case.

My bonus footage had mine squeak out a win against some (multiplayer default stats). It didn't look easy, heh

Even if it's just tactically for some of the time, that's a lot of pain to bring.

Well in multiplayer you'd get destroyed using it, though it also has no relevance to ranged vulnerability (it's no worse). Campaign... you'll find places for it a-plenty.

Fun's definitely the point with them.

They bring new things to the table and that's what DLC should do. I feel the old version absolutely still has a place, but some people disagree with me, which means the roster has even more strong AP options. Which is good!

Ah, that's what people had against it! I'm about to upload a video about the unit, I think it's still really good... but I hear you about other AP options. No reason for Grimgor to skimp when he gives them special stuff, though.

Hm. You'd think that'd take a while to resolve.

OK. I just finished recording four scripts, one of which is for the upgraded "Great Weapons" Black Orcs, so when I'm doing videos again I'll add the Krimzon Killers to the mix, I remember using them "back in the day" when RoR's were still a new thing.. good times.

@OffToBattle thank you

@OffToBattle thank you very much- looking forward to your future endeavors

It's a very interesting thought...

Immovable Bulwark is -24 Melee Attack for 24 melee defense. The great weapons have +25 percent weapon strength and -24 melee defense. Which is actually far worse

@ its a joke

@@piazinho93 agreed but bulwark is nice sometimes cuz i like tonwatxh things fight

@@spoof6023 They buffed that already so it's a 50% weapon strength boost

@@JimmyBoombox I just realized when i played today lmao i was in the middle of my Golgdude campaign

That would be nice, honestly!

As long as you have the cav for it, I can see that tactic working brilliantly.

IMO the black orcs with shields are competing with orc boyz, not black orcs with great weapons. They're a much tougher, harder hitting orc boy, with the cost being that they make your green tide more like a green drizzle if you bring more than a few (Unless you're in campaign and can bring as many as you like)... and in a faction that wants to bury their enemies in a stampede of bodies, having fewer bodies can be counter-productive. That being said, black orcs with great weapons are a win condition that needs protecting from missile units, while black orcs with shields are here to protect your win condition at a price point that I don't think the greenskins want to spend for it. There *may* be a niche for them as they get experimented with more, but they certainly don't slot nicely into traditional greenskin play.

Well if the enemy isn't the type that can escape like Outriders, you can completely neutralized certain range with one unit where you would require multiple units to do so otherwise. Of course you have to DO something with those other units that's worthwhile. Take Armored Kossars.

I get it re traditional greenskin play, but that's partly because this tool didn't exist before. I'm curious what sentiment will be as people get used to it.

@@OffToBattle We'll have to see how things shake out, but the real question is just what do the black orcs with shields enable that more ork boyz don't already enable. At any rate, they are a welcome addition to the campaign for greenskins at least, since the greenskins kinda relied a lot on low-tier units for their rush strategy which could fall off pretty hard in the late game.

I didn't see one here so I'm assuming no...

@@OffToBattle could also be i mix something up with the tabletop version. cause in table top all orc-units had a spezial rule where you need to pass a test to determine if the unit acts normal or does not act at all. in worst case the unit could even fight itself or attack thers without order instead. blackorcs where the only type of units that did not need to test, because they are much more disciplined then all other orcs. not only that, they even made other orcs way more relyable.

The big bosses have rabble rouser which provides an AoE that provides immunity to psychology.

Since I haven't seen that mod, I think this looks pretty good. Nothing against the mod, you have me intrigued.. I may not be Rurikhan but I appreciate really good looking shields.

@@OffToBattle They use the Black Orc Big Boss's shield model. The Black Orcs with shields look like they are walking around with a granite kitchen bench top

Yep. Between fists of gork, ere' we go, smash em' faster, and a few passive abilities you can easily make up for the drop in melee attack imposed by their special ability.

That's interesting, I thought most people would be thrilled with damage they got "for free" if opponents can't punish it sufficiently, but yes, certain opponents absolutely can and will.

Difficult to make up for a drop in MD with the faction certainly...

Some of Gorbad's Tactics that buff Artillery and ranged can make for a pretty good backline, imo. But I usually find myself resorting to melee based armies as Greenskins since only melee increases their Waaggh! meter

Yeah greenskin archers are garbage, and artillery(other than the new spider) aren't super good. I usually just charge in with greenskins. I guess it's nice have the option but I did not recruit these at all in my gorbad campaign

Why not use as a tarpit for Orc Boar Boyz to do some rear charging, especially considering Boar Boyz are not the fastest and need some extra time to get around?

That's a take I've already heard from some RUclipsrs so no surprise at all. That's why I emphasized offensive pushing. Greenskins can do missiles, sure, but rarely of a nature that's going to out-range the enemy from a safe distance, aside from outright artillery. This is more for pushing a ranged enemy.

Greenskins definitely love their melee.

Sparingly feels just fine to be honest. It's a new tool to dish out when you feel a particular need for it.

Yeah I saw this on reddit today, didn't realize every LL had their own upgrade.

@rohrvg yeah skarsnik is giving his special death juice poison to every night goblin and if azhag is still the same he buffs Orks with weapons buffing his casting. But I only memorized da immortals armor and the death juice upgrade

I wasn't sure about that part, but I also didn't claim it was available under other lords so if it's still Grimgor-exclusive, that's A-OK. Thanks! I don't think I played Greenskins since the 4.2 era, played a lot of them in TWW2.

It's good to see, really. They need flavor and variety.

@@OffToBattle IMHO the whole building and research rework helped a ton with variety . Having so many of the base infantry buildings now in small settlements helps a ton. Sure pre patch their research and faction buffs were mostly stronger but I had my effective way of playing them and now there are just options over options and it's great

Yeah, I hear you about deleting units...

​@@OffToBattlei mean i do love the lizards and oxyotl and bias to em. But it cant even delete brettonian archers now. Thats how much it was nerfed. But besides that the armor md and missle resist is helpful

Probably and I just messed it up at the last minute. Thanks.

Not a number so I'll live with it ^^; Still best to know, so thanks! Not kidding, feedback is a good thing. Definitely getting on with unit focus videos asap though.

I think, in addition to what people have told me about the 'last hero to be upgraded or to join the army' bug, you are correct. At least that is my genuine assumption at this time. Thanks~~

No, because the equal MA to equal MD number is 35% and the minimum is 8% to hit. I said it truthfully the first time, I'm weirdly used to charge bonus figures from doing chariot stuff. So! Definitely need videos about chariots in 6.0.2 and up and what's changed and all that. See you soon!