Problems with Mythic Raiding
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- Опубликовано: 6 май 2024
- After talking about what was wrong with Affixes in M+, I wanted to discuss what was wrong with Mythic Raiding. I had a long convo with my friends the other day and I wanted to speak about what I think would fix raiding.
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I feel like deterministic loot is just the solution to so many problems in wow
Antique Bronze Bullion feels so nice. Wish it was permanent and m+ had an option.
It may be me being a boomer. But the deterministic loot reduces the enjoyment of gearing imo.
I don't want to do the bare minimum and know I'm gonna be bis. Spending 10 hours farming specific shit to be 3% better than some other nerd Is rewarding from my viewpoint.
If we all get the same journey. It makes it bland
@@Anoradord yeah pure deterministic gearing also just makes it boring imo. Too much randomness is toxic (like legendaries in this expac) but everyone getting the same gear at the same time doing the bare minimum just makes it seem like more of a job than it does already. Makes certain gear pieces feel more mandatory to get rather than exciting to get.
They should just mail me the new tier set with the patch imho.
@@Anoradord I think blizz agrees with you which is why we're unlikely to ever seen something like dinars/bullions in a non-fated season as they are.
but there's definitely a middleground. I'd be happy with a targeted loot system that's much slower/less generous. Mainly looking to solve the problem of killing experiments every week and not getting OCE until month 5 of the season.
3 Tettles videos! It's a good week
20m and the crazy entry gate has been why i've opted out of Mythic for the past few expansions, after raiding CE in Legion. M+ lets me play with a tighter knit group of friends, and it rewards individual skill expression a lot more.
If I'm gonna be spamming 50 keys to get geared anyways, am I even a raider anymore, or am I just a keystone player that goes into raid after I'm done with my seasonal grind? Why not just cut the raiding? Start of season undergeared high keys are harder than Mythic anyways.
Mythic lockout is the issue for guilds like mine that suffer from the attrition boss. We lose 3 pugs on boss 2 or 3 and the night is over because no refill pug will then be like “cool, I’ll accept this lockout”. If it went to the same kind of lockout as heroic/normal it would negatively effect degen World First Splits gameplay and positively effect everyone else. I think that is a fine tradeoff.
At least they are making it cross realm in TWW. That's a big problem for a lot of guilds is simply they can't find people to fill the raid on their own server. A lot of guilds are fine just killing 2 -4 bosses and ignoring the bosses that are just endless time sinks.
I think the worst problem with mythic raiding is the 20 man requirement.
The lockout a problem for smaller guilds doing only 3-4 bosses and may need to pug a few players
The problem is Blizzards has little motivation to change the current gearing process. Given they can put hard caps on upgrade material and vault rewards, gearing the last like 10% can be easily stretched out over 2+ months.
100% agree with you. I got CE every tier from the start of shadowlands until Aberrus, and at some point it stopped feeling like a video game and more like a job. For me the only thing that could get me back is reducing the raid size. Like imagine how much more you could enjoy the hour to hour gameplay in a guild where you can play with your close friends and not be super serious about some dumb comp requirements.
The problem with mythic raiding is that theres 5+ arseholes and 5+ carries in every group
Yeah it attracts the worst people and if you want a semi casual setting then you are most likely sitting on the same bosses for months due to low hours and inefficiency. Even then you probably won't like a few people in the group. Not my idea of fun.
Changing the mythic lockout would do so much for the roster boss. For example, the case your guild is just extending a lockout and progging a late boss such as tindral. You would have the option of joining other guilds on earlier bosses to farm gear or fill in for missing raiders.
50-60 hours a week? What a casual. I play that much everyday.
I started mythic raiding in wod and it felt great did a lil in legion but half benched was still in world 1000 guild and we only made it 7 bosses deep never to penultemate boss of each raid, now yeah there is way too much time required to put in to even put your foot in the door to raid, love the difficult fights and lots of pulls sure but requiring so much gear and extra commitment is too much to even be a part of a guild now
What you described with raid buffs being brought by multiple classes each is how it worked in Cataclysm/Mists era, Ghostcrawler's "Bring the player, not the class" philosophy. That philosophy was adopted for the time because 10-man heroic was supposed to be a valid endgame (where one of every class would be unreasonable or even impossible), but abandoned when mythic 20-man raiding became the only true endgame.
The greatest barrier to graduating from Heroic to Mythic Raiding is the overly-punishing Lockout. Simply changing the Mythic Lockout to Personal-only and Boss-by-Boss would enable countless more PUG-only Players to dip their toes into Mythic Raiding.
Currently, if you're a PUG-only Player without a robust social-network trying to Mythic Raid feels completely impossible. At best you will get to spend a full Raid-night's worth of time just killing 2-3 Bosses, if you're lucky.
Plus, if you are eager to move up to Mythic you have to choose between practicing trivial early Bosses with bad PUGs or keeping your Lockout open for any Guild Trials you might get. So it's a Catch-22 decision between getting more experience & gear, or being able to actually use that experience & gear to Trial for a new Guild.
Basically, Mythic Raiding is a Walled-Garden, and for some psycho reason Blizzard thinks that is a good thing and is what's keeping Guilds from dying. No, the Roster-Boss is annihilating Guilds faster than they can form. Making it less of a commitment to Trial a new player helps both the Trials and the Guild itself. Many more people would seek out Trials if they wouldn't get Saved just by walking inside the Raid.
Just think about that: If an innocent new Player has saturated Heroic and wants to try out Mythic Raiding, they only get 1 attempt per WEEK before being locked out from attempting Bosses with different groups.
Almost every Guild I have Trialed with started me on a middle-Boss and forced me to get saved to their lockout before even pulling a single Mob. Most Guilds I Trialed with forced me to take their Lockout, but then were never even able to kill a Boss all week.
I've been looking for a CE/HoF Guild for ages. The pool of viable Guilds was already quite small, often there are only a few appropriate Guilds even accepting Applications, but nowadays the pool of Guilds that match my goals is almost non-existent. I keep hearing about Guilds not being able to find Players at this time, but I think rather than recruiting that the Guilds are just imploding instead.
Nerf the Roster-Boss, it's the most overpowered enemy in all of WoW.
I disagree that drastically altering Mythic Raid comp structures or such is a good idea. It is possible that those changes might help, but they might make things worse too, and creating fun challenging balanced Mythic Raid encounters becomes exponentially more difficult the smaller the group size becomes. Your wish for 10man Mythic Raids could easily become a Monkey-Paw-Wish and forever more every new Raid is the quality of Zul Gurub or Trial of the Crusader.
Historically, Blizzard was never able to balance 10 man Raids well. Most were a complete joke, but others such as Heroic 10 man Lich King were ultra nightmare fuel.
apart from the problems that come from roster issues, big teams also have the huge problem of cluttering your screen with players, 10m gives so much room to move to, especially for melees
Roster boss isn't even a mythic guild thing. My heroic guild struggles to fill more than 10 people on some days. We are on a smaller server though.
I have the time to mythic raid, but I don't have the time to spam m+ for gear. I'm behind in ilv for most of a season.
The end-of-raid fights are too hard, the roster boss is too much. I do think changing the mythic lockout to how HC works would be a step in the right direction. But these bosses shouldn't be taking 700+ pulls from top 100 guilds
I agree with everything you said especially changing the lockout system bs…except for the difficulty point, end of raid boss should prove a challenge…keep in mind a lot of the times guilds get to the fight around 10-15 ilvl under the “max” and while the struggle they still complete it.
For the rest of the avg Joe’s that make it there eventually at max ilvl they usually do the boss after it’s received a few nerfs anyways…and it’s still satisfying for this type of raider.
If every boss was eranog (great 1st boss!) difficulty then raiding wouldn’t be as popular 🤷🏽♂️
i will say as someone who dose like 8 m+ a week plus + a raid and don't really care about ranking. having one on my avenues for loot removed sounds really sucky. Now if raid gear only scales when you walking in the mythic raid i don't think i would care about that.
Also another take: If you get rid of buffs, you would class stack again. this is also not bringing the player.
Exactly. Removing buffs wouldn't solve anything. You would still stack classes. Either for utility that is needed for a certain fight or just the class with the highest throughput
Class stacking is still a thing even though raid buffs are here. It never went away. So that's not really an argument.
One aspect of mythic raid size that I don't see talked about much is that it increases the probability that someone in your group will mess up.
If you have 20 people and each person has a 10% chance to mess up a mechanic, then assuming all players are equal in skill level, you have only a 12% probability that no one messes it up. With 10 people it's 35% probability that no one messes it up. For the sake of completeness, with 5 people that becomes 59% chance no one messes it up.
As you're talking about difficulty and pull count, assuming that things are tuned correctly, you should expect a lower pull count for the same difficulty with fewer players assuming equal skill all around. This also means that it becomes harder to add more challenging mechanics without wildly causing pull counts to increase when the raid size is larger. If the probability of messing up a mechanic were e.g. 20%, then a group of 10 should avoid it 11% of pulls, while a group of 20 will avoid it on 1% of pulls.
Our guild is one of the oldest in WoW, continuously active since the first month of vanilla. We have been AotC every season since that became a thing, but we never touch Mythic as a matter of policy. Why? We invite every guild member to raid and typically have 25-30 in our raid groups. We will never sit people to fit a fixed raid size. I do understand the advantages of fixed raid size for tuning purposes, but this absolutely gates-out more social guilds that don't want to sit people.
If the raids were slightly easier and comp wasn't so rigid it would be fine getting 20 people. However, while the difficulty is a problem, the other issue is how quickly and easily the gear is replaced on the first day of a new season, making players ask why they should be putting in so much effort.
I cannot raid mythic because me and my friends cannot find the extra 10-12 people who are at a similar level.
For me opening mythic to 10 men after hall of fame would be so nice.
That wary race stays the same and after a couple of weeks I can try it as well with my friends
TWW will add cross realm so you will be able to actually get pugs for it. As for "at a similar level" I mean most of the bosses aren't that hard or don't have insane requirements. It's usually 1 or 2 bosses a tier and the end boss that wall people.
@@Navi_xoo well you haven’t seen the type of players we have in our guild😂 Our hard wall was the heartstopper orbs on igira and healers quitting Progression because people keep telling them they didn’t get enough heal🙃🤡
But very true the server thing is a gamechanger. I am on a really small server
They could leave the raid size at 20 if they changed up the raid lockout a bit. It's too punishing on those that can't field the same 20 every time they go to raid.
I would like to see je lockout changed, i like raiding but the 20m + the weekly lockout is a pain. Beeing able to pug would be a great change
Not every player wants to be locked to a raid night, unless you can make mythic raiding pug friendly, it's not going to be "fixed"
The raid buff setup you explained was basically Cataclysm
Mythic raiding should flex. Not as much as normal or heroic but it would make it so much easier to have a stable group. People will say they lock it in at 20 for tight tuning but then mythic raiding can afford to be easier.
Why can't the raid get nerfed passively with things like ICC damage buff that weekly or biweekly increases, instead of waking up wednsday and Tindral has been nuked from orbit?
Hmmm, not sure about loot with specific ivl bonus for raid. While this makes re-clear easier and would allow for gear to "keep nerfing" bosses after its death, it would be seen by non-raiders as another barrier to get into raiding.
At least for now, I would just make raiding more rewarding, with more loot dropping from each boss. Potencially currency to get sockets, terciaries or even upgrade one item from Heroic to Myth track, which would allow people to improve items from other raid dificulties or even get a specific dungeon trinket easier, instead of praying for the vault gods.
Reducing the raid size isn’t a long term solution. Even if you reduced the raid size over two expansions to your proposed 10, you’re not going to have many new guilds from all the people who have been cut. Instead, like you said, people will quit.
The correct approach is to tune fights for much lower ilvls. Look back at expansions that were pre-m+. Gear was limited. There was no vault. Farm was virtually mandatory. Your guild would likely farm heroic well into the raid tier.
Additionally, fights were far less mechanically dense. Yes, there was the odd boss that demanded more of the team, but it could be eventually overcome with a combination of gear and skill. Gear now is merely the bare minimum to enter access the later fights. Your team will likely never be any stronger than when they first pulled those later fights. Skill likely won’t improve much if at all.
Mythic raiding is dying because it’s over designed. We used to be able to carry a few middling players through prog to CE in a reasonable amount of time. Now, that’s no longer possible.
Its a valid point about buffs but as a feral it feels good when someone else makes your character better in some way
Basically being forced into sales is also killing raiding for me. The gold requirement is beyond consumables with the new profession system. I often have to spend 100k+ a season just crafting gear. That or P2W?
The extremely difficult bosses are fine, but they need to get easier week to week.
The gearing now is great, but fast. It leaves fewer week to week power spikes and you never really out gear bosses that are walling you.
I think max ilvl gear should drop from heroic and mythic should be there only for the mythic transmog, achievements and mounts, also, I like the idea of having tier groups bring the raid buffs and not the actual class, so for instance, all mystic tier token classes should be able to bring motw, int, and hunter's mark in some form or another that way blizzard can reduce the raid size and only have 4 mandatory slots (dreadful, mystic, zenith and venerated) instead of 14 as it is currently.
I would 100% quit the game if raids and M+ were separate game modes with separate gear. Not everyone raids top 100.
I do agree with the raid size and the raid buffs.
The time outside of raid is a big problem. My guild got CE in Vault and Aberrus and got to 2% of Fyrrak before the season ended and the last week of this past season alone the officers spent about 16 hours going through logs trying to find boss damage to push for a kill. It might not be indicative of the lower end of CE guilds as a whole but for us so much of that time prepping for fights and learning strats was done almost entirely by officers. We had many raiders showing up not understanding mechanics and getting them to even watch a video let alone the RWF was like pulling teeth. The amount of work and stress this puts on the guild leadership is just unsustainable, and I'm sure for guilds where their raiders all do this individually its much of the same. Getting CE in the last 2-3 weeks of a raid means that we are finishing prog and then immediately going into prep for the next raid. There was no down time at all. After missing CE in Amirdrassil due to the difficulty of Tindral and Fyrrak + the roster boss (we had 2 players quit during Tinral and 2 more quit right after we killed him) we're just done. I don't want to put in that much work anymore and neither do any of the other officers. We're going back to AotC raiding with maybe a few mythic bosses in TWW because we want to have breaks between seasons again and we don't want to care about someone needing to reroll mage because we need int buff etc. I'm not sure what changes they could make to convince us to start CE raiding again but quicker nerfs on end bosses, having redundant raid buffs, and cross realm mythic being open day 1 would all help. Lowering the raid size would be nice but I don't think it would fix the issues that made us quit.
i really really hope for 10man raiding, reason why i swapped over to cata classic, much easier to get a 10man group then 20man and much more enjoyable
Building and maintaining a roster of over 10 people is alot of work
It sucks I did CE in Aberrus and not gonna lie I didn't tell my GM this but I saw the WF Tindral and Fyarrak kills, when we got to Smolderon I was just like my guild is not gonna kill this and took a break.
Tettles over here spittin. Agreed entirely, mythic raiding being a part time job is one of the big reasons I stopped.
Here is a solution. Have gear from m+ have lower ilvl in mythic raid only until you kill a certain boss. This boss would start at the last boss until world first kill. And every subsequent week would be an earlier boss into the raid. That ilvl decrease can be tuned to be equivalent to the item level of later bosses of normal or early bosses of heroic. It would make heroic raid gear more impactful in early weeks of the season, make heroic farm more valuable for longer, and help to fix the tuning delta caused by the race. This would also make deep farm possible as bosses generally would be tuned easier for guilds outside of hall of fame
I've been playing WoW since beta, 2003 or whatever, I experienced Naxx back then. I'm a Nu WoW player now. What that means is I play or will be playing at least 4 different versions of WoW, Retail, SoD, Timerunning and Cata Classic. What I wanna know is what is going through Blizzard's head with 5 different versions of WoW running. Do they actually expect someone like me to ever be able to Mythic raid? They're creating a new monster by having so many versions of the game now, the transience monster where people don't commit to anything in any one version of WoW because they just hop to the other version.
For me the circuit goes something kinda like this: Do M+ with friends on the weekend. After that PVP in SoD. Then after that level an alt and run dungeons in Cata. Then after that, eventually, pump hard in Panda Timerunning and possibly raid in that. Timerunning Raiding is the only raiding that attracts me, the other game modes take too long to do stuff. WoW is back into that swamp where it confuses time consumption with challenge.
The time needed for mythic raiding is what made me quit retail and go classic. I love the fights, classes and all of it.. but i dont have time for a 2nd job, i cant go from my life real work and Home to my wow job.. i want to log in and raid, not login in spend twice the time prepping for raiding
M+ and Raiding need to have separate gear ecosystems, similar to how PvP gear is separate from PvE. For people who only do one or the other, nothing changes for the content that they do, and only get better. Blizzard can scale rewards for that content in a way that feels more satisfying. Even if a player likes to do both, they could still find enjoyment in getting gear for both and having different builds.
I don't raid but it's always been crazy to me how these raids all have 20 people in them. That's a whole room full of people all working in sync. Just seems exhausting.
awh man, reading the word "effort" made me tired. so unfun.
@@marton_horvath raiding is dying so people clearly agree. But go off
@@jarofpickles4057 wow has been "dying" for like 15 years now
It's boring but mostly because of the time sink and having to configure 10 different addons. Also having 19 different people telling you about their cat or simply just being annoying losers like they are in real life. Especially in the guilds that only raid like 5-9 hours a week then you are stuck on the same bosses for months unless your guild is full of god gamers, extremely boring and for what? Cutting edge title? The gear you get becomes obsolete instantly. Not worth it in any way outside of hall of fame guilds which usually require no life-ing for 2-4 weeks.
I'd love to see 10-man Mythic raids implemented. It might be chaotic initially, but it would likely lead to a significant increase in player participation in raiding and team formation. Additionally, with more teams competing, the Race for World First could become even more exciting.
Here is my hot take: They should do the same that they did with M+. Squash the difficulty. But the other way around. Get rid of Mythic and bump up the difficulty of Normal and Heroic. Obviosu not to what Mythic was before.
While all the points you've raised are valid, I don't think the solution is to seperate out m+ and raid gearing. While that'd be great for players who only want to do 1 type of content, I don't think it's healthy for the game as a whole.
I don't know what a good solution would be to adjust the power creep throughout a tier, perhaps a Bullion/Dinar system for every season could be immensely helpful here, but slow down the acquisition rate so it essentially would kick in after RWF (1 item every 3-4 weeks). In addition to that, perhaps a ramping acquisition curve of crests would be helpful, initially the weekly cap increase will be low, but it ramps up as the weeks pass by, so that by week 4, you're at the usual cap amount.
I understand the points being made, but its just beating around the bush and splitting hairs.
The reason no one mythic raids is its too hard.
No one wants to schedule 8-12 hours out of their week to ram their head into a boss in their 30s.
Also all of these guilds outside of the very very high end run into walls and everyone knows they just have to keep showing up until Blizzard nerfs the boss substantially the next week - invalidating alot of the work they put in. But its also a catch 22 because if you just stop raiding until nerfs come - your guild dies.
If Mythic raid lowered its overall difficulty curve more towards the mid-level bosses and did away with these guildbreakers like Tindral/Fyrakk, participation would go up substantially. Anything else would be minor at best.
I recently got back into raiding in season 2 of this expansion because of the new upgrade system. I do like how normal and heroic raiding is 10-30 players and scales accordingly. Not sure why blizzard couldnt do the same thing for mythic and make the fights easier for majority of the playerbase. You wouldnt have to worry about how many players show up and dont have to worry about leaving players out.
On top of that the one thing i HATE about raiding is the loot system. I am used to M+ with personal loot and doing a raid with 20/25/30 players and having to roll on gear and constantly lose the rolls is pretty annoying. Although you cant trade gear if its a higher item level in M+. Just remove any gear trade restriction.
A gear vendor should be in every single season honestly. Even if we can buy a piece every 2 weeks. You know eventually you can get what you want. I went all of season 2 and all of season 3 not being able to get the sark trinket and fryakk trinket.
The FFXIV approach of having the mythic difficulty raid be purely for cosmetics and have the heroic equivalent raid give the best loot would still give the challenge to those who want it, while not forcing players to not invest so much time progressing who only play M+. As a result balancing the raid sizes and loot etc. would also become a lot easier and more flexible
Not true I would say Savage is closer to general mythic difficulty and the last boss of savage ( which gives the best gear ) Is close to wow upper mythic raid difficulty. FFXIV is just WAY easier to gear in outside of raiding. The crafted gear is insanely strong and easy to make.
Ultimate is closer to WoW current content endbosses but more constant tight assignment mechanics and chained together at a faster pace for 15-20 minutes.
@@Navi_xoo You missed the point
@@MrZhaw No you are just wrong lol i don't have to repeat myself just read it again.
@@Navi_xoo Does the point need to be spelled out for you?
nvr stop uploading ❤
Legit had the thought experiment with friends multiple times about how fast we could make a 10man raiding team if they allowed 10man mythic, but we could never get 20 (24-25) players together
Raid buffs brought by individual classes (or even specs) for sure fosters class diversity.
And it makes sense to me (purely my opinion/speculation) that blizzard enjoys having good class representation in RWF. And to a lesser degree its cool fantasy to be stronger with friends.
I would argue that the problem is not with the existence of raid buffs, but with their magnitude.
Most raid buffs are ~3% raid throughput. When the content is tightly tuned and challenging, that number is so big that that you are not merely incentivised yo have a buff, but basically required to have it.
Imagine if instead you change the tuning target of raid buffs to be 0.2~0.3% throughput. It probably remains optimal to have a fully (or almost fully) diverse roster, but the penalty for failing to do so is ~10 times less severe.
I would bet that, in that world, outside of the very top (like, top ~20 world), raid buffs become a secondary concern and using your best players returns to being problem #1
I feel like they should just make it like heroic where it scales based on number of players, why does it need to be a set particular number. 10 players - 25 players. Removing the Mythic lockouts, will make it more puggable, and will help with the roster boss.
The lockout system is the #1 barrier to guilds trying to enter mythic. I’m a heroic flex raid leader and in season 1 we had 18, pugged two, killed the first boss, someone had to leave and absolutely no one wants to lock themselves out of vault slots for a progression pug.
Then just do it with heroic gear then….no one tells you you need to farm m+. Dont destroy the loot for m+ players who dont raid. The reason this game is good is that you can get upgrade whenever , you have time, or want to farm. not timegated…
I think it's just takes way too long to clear the mythic raid. Not that this is a new issue; I feel like it has been like this for a very long time, even when heroic was the hardest difficulty. Perhaps me and my guildies are just getting too old.
I’d rather they keep the end of dungeon rewards but cap how many you can get per week.
I think if they want RWF to be interesting by making the bosses difficult, it should be through hampering the players and not by making impossible bosses. Make it to where until the top X (10-15?) guilds complete the raid, your ilvl in Mythic is scaled to a lower ilvl and balance around that ilvl, that way getting gear is a means of progression for everyone else, and world top 10-15 still get the challenge of beating the bosses "un-nerfed".
They should also just make Mythic flex and with a fluid lockout. Trying to balance between beating the roster boss, and getting specific players in on certain bosses while also locking them out of any other bosses is miserable for everyone involved. It's just not fun and kills the game for a lot of people.
I just think if you have to cut mythic raiding to 10 or 15 man or flex you might as well remove it from the game and add hardmodes to heroic raiding. M+ is already the small group content. But I agree on all the gear comments and I think the rewards not being there anymore explains why less people are interested. They did miss tuning I think for a couples bosses in the recent expansions (sepulcher, tindral, etc.) but I think harder bosses have been generally fun.
Mythic raiding is also a problem for HC and normal. Typically these days Mythic raid gets tunned and then there are small changes in boss dmg, health and mechanic, oftentimes ignoring smaller raidsizes and / or raids that cant have every buff/debuff class and it always takes blizzard weeks to tune them properly to the different raid sizes, leading to frustration.
I think just forsake the race to world first, make it easier and 10 players.
Off the cuff more players in the race if it survives.
Its faster and a 2 day event max.
We stop balancing around an out of wow event that just causes ripples in the actual community
good video👍
If you think your roster issues are issues with raid size, then you are, as has been shown by history over and over, just wrong. Back in the day we raided with 40 people, and had roster issue. We raided 10 man's, and we had roster issues. IMHO the difference is, that even in the 40 man or 10 man times back then, it was easier to replace people, because the content wasn't too demanding. And that is the true isse. It's a difficulty issue. Mythic needs to be easier, at least a couple of weeks into the raid. I actually believe, that going to 10 man would actually be counterproductive in that regard, since then a missplay from a single player, weighs twice as much. Higher raid sizes can be more forgiving in this regard, and for me I feel that 20 man actually is a good middleground.
Biggest problems are probably the 20 man requirements and the intentional overtuning just for the sake of prolonging the content and making the race to world first views last more. Also maybe the rest of the game shouldn't have to suffer just for the sake of mythic raiding?
The only people i feel like who don't see that 20 people for mythic is a problem, are people who don't have to deal with recruiting and maintaining a roster. After 10 years of building a guild, we are still struggling with the roster boss almost every tier at the end of a season. I don't even know how new guilds would even ever go about attempting to start...
I personally don't really think M raiding is too hard, it certainly is made harder by again the fact that you need to have 20 players who play at that high level. I think it would be probably just right if i could take my 10 strongest players only..
In terms of having 'must have' slots, I think they could just bring back scrolls. There is a cost involved with having to bring scrolls, so raid costs more but you dont have to bring a player that under performs just because they bring a certain raid buff. And honestly mystic touch and whatever the DH has, just remove that. We missed our monk one week on smolderon and literally couldn't make the dps check all of a sudden..
You are a genius! you should work with blizzard and one more thing why don't they make every raid like timewalk LFR que that sends you to the raid instead of making us waste our time traveling there (summon everyone) also take off mythic raid lock outs another waste of time mech trying to replace a player that leaves or dc
The lockout is the issue, make it personal lockout like Heroic/Normal and guilds can live. People have lives and should be able to take a week off
raid buffs are just an excuse for blizzard to be lazy in their class balancing. why make sure that specs aren't stacked by actually balancing specs when you can just slap a raid buff on a class to make them mandatory in a raid.
I think the playerbase would be much happier and better served long-term by easier raids. It's just a miserable experience to be struggling with the final boss of a raid after many months of raiding multiple hours per week and the patch being around the corner. People aren't in it just for the challenge. People like getting cool shit. People like getting full BiS gear. People like blasting content fast. People like reclearing. People like competing for logs and improving their game. It's not just about how long progression lasts. It just doesn't make sense to have the absolute best teams in the world take a week to clear the raid, given all the INSANE time they put in, plus the preparation, the farming, the skill.
We just need more cool, powerful items in raids. Item level is just an indicator of an item's stat budget allocation. Trinkets, Necks, Rings, Weapons can have unique effects. Rare drops are a good step in the right direction. Something to keep people hooked. Something that keeps people reclearing every week to complete their characters. Something that keeps people loyal to their guilds and having fun and caring about forming actual connections. Progression is a different beast. Just let me chill with my guildies reclearing. Lower the difficulty so that more people can participate. Lower the difficulty so the time commitment doesn't have to be so extreme.
I'm still missing the beard.
The raid buff situation is disgusting, just shows how they struggle to create unique utility. Even as a Feral druid while yes I do have 'MOTW,' that buff is shared across 4 specs (and 4 roles if you count MDPS/RDPS as seperate), while DH for example just two specs and two roles. Paladin 3 specs, yet need 2 of them for raid buffs? Which is also a class with actual unique utility that's been of high value this xpac (bops, bubble taunts, freedoms, spellwarding etc). It's absurd how they can't even make raid buffs feel equitable, and they don't accurately represent population sizes of classes. Plus the raid buffs also lean quite melee heavy especially, Windfury being Enhance only really tips the scales there.
Oh also the fact tier sets get prioritised to raid buff players just because they are guaranteed to be in for every boss, and if you miss out on your tier set week 1 its GG for you.
The M+ gearing is annoying on so many levels, not just the unhealthy hours committed to the game at start of season, but one thing I hate about the first day M+ gearing grind is the fact if you get unlucky with loot, e.g. as Feral I don't loot an agi weapon or good trinkets before our first raid 12~ hours after servers go up, I'm in my heroic split with a disadvantage, which then creates a lot of concern that my raid leaders might bench me because DPS is a bit lower because of M+ loot RNG. It's exhausting waking up at 4am when servers go up for me to try mitigate this, and even this past tier got shafted with bad RNG. All I can say is thank fuck Liquid went in with a Feral, as I know my guild tend to somewhat follow Liquid/Echo comps.
No mythic anymore? I can't take it to do 400plus pull.
I don't wanna spend more time on those raid that reward jack shit.
Just unlock the mythic lockout system to be like heroic after HOF is complete.
Once world first goes down it should turn into flex for +/- 5 players. Requiring exactly 20 people is absolutely awful.
I really vibe with this idea. Like put the feat of str behind 20 players but let me do the content at 15.
Ive been a curve player forever. me and my friends are very good players pug mythic bosses and do high keys. No chance in hell we are going to commit to what it takes to be in a mythic raiding guild as people with jobs and lives now.
The mythic raids are designed for those without life commitments therefore you are automatically blocking out 90 percent of your players.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they nerfed loot from raid in Shadowlands by 50%. You just don't get enough loot from raid anymore. Add in diluted loot pools and your chances of getting loot (that you want) is like 3% on a given boss, its absurd. You used to be able to gear through raid, now its impossible to do that and that is why gearing in m+ is just better, which imo is a good thing for the game.
Also, do not add in raid specific gear that goes up like pvp gear. If they did that, it would kill raiding outright. People who run m+ and that dabble in raid will stop raid completely.
Wouldn't it be better that people get to play the content that they want, instead of being forced to do something else to then be able to perform in their desired content?
Leave M+ alone please. For some of us that’s fun and we love it.
Just make Mythic raid flex.
Problem with that is mechanics like seeds on Fyrakk will have weird cutoffs where you go in as 14 because you will get an extra with the 15th player. If it doesn't add more with extra players it will just make it infinitly easier with 30 than 10 e.g.
The reason there is no longer Mythic 10 and Mythic 25 is because balancing a Mythic encounter with variable amounts of people is impossible. There will always be an optimal size and Mythic guilds will only run that size.
Who hit this man with a stupid potion
Im on my 5th tier in a row (this season kinda doesnt count) of CE raiding and im still loving it a ton as a tank player. Mostly sales for fyrakk mount this season and banging m+ keys
Tough call man, I used to mythic raid til BFA, taking away rewards from the entire player base in mythic+ seems pretty scorched earth for the very small percentage of people that want to clear mythic raid content. Especially when half the things you named as problems/issues with it are social issues and things your leadership in guild are imposing upon you. I get why, the content is tough and you want the best of the best to have the path of least resistance, but I don’t think changing a great system that’s working for 99% of people is a good solution. I agree with shrinking mythic raid size. The smaller the group the better for me, that way I have the highest impact possible on success. It is a beautiful thing when a big group is working in sync like cogs in a machine, but the time investment and the social crap you’re talking about are just a huge turn off.
I haaaaaaaate that M+ is the main source of gear for raids. I play to raid, I don't enjoy M+ very much, and frankly I don't have a lot of time to allocate to it anyway. Even when I can run M+, it's usually at odd times when the rest of my guild can't so I'm very often running with pugs, which means I'm running lower level keys and not getting as good a vault or drops anyway. I'm always well behind the rest of my guild in gearing at the start of a season/tier because of it. Fortunately, I heal, so I'm not as screwed as a DPS if I'm undergeared, and I still often hold my own or even outheal my fellow healers despite a sometimes 10-20 ilvl difference. My team knows that I'm skilled and will perform, but I would really prefer a more fair playing field where I don't feel forced to invest a ton of time outside of raid or just be behind in gear.
10 player mythic is a horrible take. trying to find an actual progression minded guild and not just another clique friend group where you are benched the second another one of their friends wants to start playing is going to be a cluster. raids need to be big enough that there has to be a social atmosphere beyond a small circle of friends.
How doing a 600+ pull boss appeals to anyone blows my mind. And having two in one raid?! yeah, f**k that
Rather than changing the size would it be better to have a small amount of flex in mythic raid sizes like 18-22. I haven't done Mythic raid in a while but I think 10 man would lose something at least in heroic when my guild does smaller runs later in patches it's less fun and seems like the fights weren't designed for it and they can't switch to designing for 10 when the other raid sizes still go up to 30.
My biggest problem with myth raiding right now is that its kinda unrewarding, what do you get after killing last bosses? Items that no one needs and achievment, basicly farm after CE has no meaning now outside of a mount drop.
Let me get this straight he has a take to remove end of dungeon loot from m+ basically killing m+ just because you can get HEROIC items from the dungeon ? Also is the loot you are getting from heroic raids just getting deleted or what? We gotta stop trying to destroy one section of the community just to enhance another. It’s not an m+ problem , it’s a raid scaling problem. If blizz could learn anything from this fated season it’s the scaling of raids. Liquid went in week 1 and full cleared mythic with pretty much only gear from s3 and some gear from that raid itself . If you tune the raids like that , let the good players clear it super fast it’ll still be a challenge for later guilds but farm will become better because you will be stronger. Stop trying to do dumb shit like nerf m+ terrible take and just a real doomer outlook on things .
You can't fix M raiding, raiding is dying in general and has been for some time. gaming habits have change the masses just don't want to do any kind of raid.
Meh. Mythic is and always will be for the sweaty tryhards. You're just getting old, Tettles. That's literally it. You are just like me. Getting older, and losing your fire for Mythic raiding. It's normal. Welcome to the old timers club my friend.
Blizzard will continue to keep Mythic raiding as THE 'exclusive' hardcore content in the game, but the participation numbers will only continue to plummet for Mythic raiding. Maybe some day Blizzard will wake up and finally reduce the difficulty and improve the accessibility of Mythic raiding. But until then, I remain relaxed and enjoying simple Heroic raids. Mythic is a waste of time!
just delete it. pour all resources into mythic+
Dude, Farm raid sucks... we only want to do prog.
Making farm more rewarding means that on the amount of time dedicated to raiding we are spending less time doing what we want to do. I really think that making mythic raid work like heroic is the biggest improvement they can make (Cross realm open earlier/instantly, personal lockouts so that you can pug the first boss if you get brought in to kill the 3rd and get you vault slot, being able to pug in people to help if you have roster failures).
The second biggest thing that you addresses is that raid buffs suck, it was great when they were gone... let people play whatever the hell they want, we are super casual and we often raid without 2 or 3 raid buffs... I found out recently that our long-term mage doesn't even like the class, he just knows that if he switches to be our 3rd hunter we won't have AI.
While I completely agree with the roster/recruitment boss being one of the biggest issues, I feel like fights and strategy will just not feel the same with only half as many people. Less CDs you can allocate to different mechanics and less available bodies to rotate for mechanic assignments, which would both streamline fights a lot when before you could (had to) adjust and juggle a lot based on your roster.
Maybe just cutting raid size slightly could already go a long way for a lot of guilds. Why do groups have to be exactly 5 people (at least in raids)? Could be 6 player groups x3 e.g. for 18 people total (or x2 for 12 people if you really want to cut that much).
Get rid of it
something you didn't mention in regards to speed kills in past expansions such as legion is that those expansions had borrowed power that allowed less "dedicated" guilds to progress over time along with new gear. This gave "higher end" guilds easier farm, making farm actually not hell. I think theres a way to do borrowed power systems that don't make high end players turbo farm boring shit, but still allow everyone to get stronger over the patch.
Incredibly based, I dont want to spend 30+ hours a week doing Mythic+, and that is a VERY normal amount of time to spend gearing up in the first few weeks in the mid-high end scene
Let me cook something. Make every class have a raid buff, and make each raid buff have 2 classes as their source, but that would require a whole remaking of the buffs.
But just as an example: Mages and Shamans have "Elements guidance"; "Light's touch" for priests and paladins; Fortitude would now come from Warriors and DKs; Mark of the Wild would come from Druids and Hunters (and ditch hunters mark). Reiterating: these are just examples. The combinations, names and effects can be an after thought - thats the devs' job.
That would single handedly reduce the mandatory/locked-in raid spots for classes by half, while making useless classes, such as Shamans, just as viable as the others, while also preserving class flavor/thematic.
Edit: alright I kept thinking about this and came up with some others: Mystic touch comes from rogues now, aswell as monks, with a different name, maybe "weakness spotting" or smth like that (ditch the rogue poison buff); Chaos brand is dh/lock (yes lock even more op, but this is the only one that fits, plus every class will have these and dhs are popular so it wouldn't matter as much); Evokers can keep their buff since there's an odd number of classes and it's not as impactful;
1. Either get rid of raid buffs or make it so atleast 2 classes bring the same raid buffs
2. Reduce mythic + gearing significantly. I don't like spending more time doing M+ than raiding because it is much more rewarding.
3. Everyone has their own opinion on raid size. I like 20m
4. Get rid of LFR and normal mode. Less difficulties giving gear would make for a smoother difficulty curve.
5. Make raid gear better than M+ gear again. Aside from a few pieces, M+ gear is just as good as raid gear and with the catalyst and vault you can eventually be mythic raid ilvl.
But why does it matter if 15 warlocks want to walk into a raid and clear content, i think as long as that isnt forced to be the best i dont see why class stacking really matters that much. Like its not preferred to have that be the thing but again why does it realllly matter.