"I am not part of this movement, but I have been studying Witness Lee and Watchman Nee's ministry for almost a 3 year and a half. Thank you for this kind of content-it encourages me to dig deeper into Lee's ministry.but If you read more of his writings, you will understand why he says those things and how he came up with those ideas, especially concerning the Triune God." 😊 May the holy Spirit guide you in your study.
What would have made this thorough and fair is the inclusion of verses used to support the teachings mentioned from the other side's point of view. The lack of those verses, however, may simply be due to her being unaware of them, not having researched the teachings, and hence the posting of this video.
Praise the Lord, brothers and sisters, hope this may help to enlightened us all. There are lots of verses regarding the essence of Triune God. Somewhere in the book of Psalms, it says, about 3 things, the spring (fountain), the well and the stream (flows) are 3 different things but are one. Both have the same substance and nature WATER (liquid). Regarding how the doctrines, teachings and letters kills, simply says ( the "Logos" black & white text (letters can kills, while the "Rhema" where doctrine, teaching and letters becomes spirit and life to us. And last, the 1000 years discipline is just a place of discipline not a lake of fire (which is forever and intended only for Satan, false prophet and for those who did NOT written their names in the book of life. 1000 years is just a discipline for the defeated believers, but we will all enjoy the same and consummate to the new heaven and new earth in eternity future. Kindly note i Revelation that there is distinction with the New Jerusalem and the Nations surrounds them.
Witness Lee teachings are some kind of unique for sure, never heard such teachings. I always stay cautious about new schools who bring completely new types of interpretation, why would the old schools be wrong and why would we need someone from the 20nd century to finally know the real meaning of the bible : doesn't make sense
Thank you for doing research in this stuff. I'm too lazy to research all this stuff lol which I should because I'm in it, lol. I'll tell yea this, ever since I joined them, I've always had to keep my ears open and try to distinguish what they are saying. On the flip side, they offer cheap rent for me as a student 😂
Also, as I have witness (hehe) by being in the recovery for about a year now, along with me studying other denominations, It seems to me that witness lee seems to have studied the bible and came to his own conclusions which basically looks likes he's adopted the Non-Denom/Bapist view but mixed up with some Orthodox/Cathlic views as well. For example, the 1000 year discipline - Catholics believe in purgatory which is the same thing. Another example is that they believe they are the true church like catholics/orthodox. - They wont say it though because they hold the protostant views as the main belief system so they can lose that true church spot to another if you get what I am saying. As for the "Knowledge kills, Doctrine kills....." I was like bruh.. Knowlegde builds a good foundation for your faith so when faith is low, you have knowledge to recall to. Anyways, I feel more as an observer which is fine. They are more or less just another denomination to me.
@@wilhelm1192 You should ask some of the harder questions to the ones you are meeting with, and then ask another denomination about it. Ask for verses from both. These things may sound like comparable teachings from other places you've been to, but there is a lot more to them than you have found on the surface (I say that about both Witness Lee's teaching, and the teachings of Catholicism or Protestants). Just to use the examples you brought out, the kingdom discipline and purgatory are not at all the same, apart from being something other than heaven or hell that you're accustomed to hearing. Also, the churches do NOT believe they are the "true church"; rather, we believe ALL blood-washed believers constitute the church as the Body of Christ. Lastly, "knowledge kills, doctrine kills" are based on verses. You could start with 2 Corinthians 3:6, as shared in the video. Anyway, much grace to you in your pursuit of the Lord.
Don’t study the Bible? That’s crazy lol 😂 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.” Hosea 4:6 NKJV Great job on this whole video!
Here's a quote from Witness Lee's ministry: "When speaking points of the truth, we should not say, 'Brother So-and-so says...' Instead, we should discern what is according to the Bible and say, 'The Bible says...'" (The Recovery of Christ as Everything in the Church, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). And another from a different book: "Concerning any matter of the truth, we should not say, 'This is what Brother Lee says.' To say this is wrong. We should not rely on what any brother says; rather, we should rely on the truth. The truth is not what a certain brother says; it is what the Bible says. We need to learn the specific verses that are related to certain truths. Then we can open the Bible to those verses and show others, saying, 'Here the Bible says this.' In this way we will not be following any brother; rather, we will be following the truth of the Bible." (Crucial Principles for the Proper Church Life, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). So, I would strongly suggest the quotes in the video are taken out of context.
@@hikaruelio3229 the local churches want you to study the Bible…..as interpreted by Lee. they want you to spend hours reading the life studies. they want you to speak only things Witness Lee said, and they forbid any other authors on their shelves. they wouldn’t make as much money if they sold anyone else would they imagine if I moved into your home and said you can only live life through the words that I say, and you can only speak things that I have said. would that be controlling?
wait - so Jesus is the "Father" but He is not the "Father" despite its plain words? What about John 14:9 - He who has seen me has seen the Father? or what about 2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit? or what about Jn 4:24 - God (the Father) is Spirit? these verses clearly show that essentially, Jesus is God and Jesus is the Spirit and that God is the Spirit....
Overcomers doctrine is just an endorsement of purgatory. Ironic, considering the dispensationalism found in Lee's interpretation of Revelation, where the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Actually this teaching was expounded extensively by Christian writers such as DM Panton, Robert Govett, and even Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. Lee considered it unnecessary to expound these matters in depth because of how much these other authors already dealt with them.
@hikaruelio3229 Lee says overcomers will reign in the millenial kingdom with Christ, while other saved believers will be in outer darkness. Why does Christ's blood cover the overcomer's sins but the rest of His believers must suffer in outer darkness, if not for the same reasoning that Catholics use for purgatory? The methodology may be different, but the same type of spirit is driving the doctrine, i.e. there are some believers who are better than others. Those who don't meet the standard will either be purged (purgatory) or expelled for 1k years (Lee).
@@controlclerk You ought to ask the Lord Himself why in His words to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 He promises rewards to those who overcome, and not to all His children in the churches. But I think it is rather obvious that not all are faithful with what they have been given. What puzzles me is why you are still quoting Lee when I made it clear the millenial reward and discipline wasn't uniquely His teaching. Why not go after Polycarp?
@hikaruelio3229 "not to all His children in the churches" Citation, please. Those letters say things like, "I will come to you and remove your lampstand unless you repent." How do you say, "remove your lampstand" means you will still be saved? "Not all are faithful" How can an unfaithful person be saved? Wouldn't that just be a false believer? "Polycarp" Polycarp spoke of overcoming trials and tribulations and persevering in the faith. There's nothing in his writings that says those who overcome will get a greater reward. He also doesn't mention people being saved who didn't overcome. Overcomer doctrine is a form of Christian perfectionism. The only "overcomer" is Jesus Christ. Our perfection rests solely on Him, not our deeds.
@@controlclerk Those first two go together. In Rev. 2 and 3, the Lord acknowledges the believers' faith, love and works, not something that makes sense to do to a "false believer" (I'm not even quite sure of what you mean by this, but I would assume this is an unregenerated person). He then gives warnings to the same people and calls them to overcome. It is clear then that genuine (regenerated) believers still need to overcome, and would either be rewarded for doing so, or disciplined and suffer loss. This does not mean they become unregenerated, however. The thought is the same with Paul in 1 Corinthians 3, that a believer building improperly would suffer loss, but still be saved, though through fire. Polycarp says, “If we please Him in this present Age, we shall also receive the Age to Come; and if we walk worthy of Him, we shall also reign together with Him.” Notice the "if"s. This does not mean he believed in the loss of salvation. He and the early church looked forward to the reward in the next age, obtained through martyrdom (which falls into the category of a work). I have lots of quotes by lots of Christian authors regarding this matter of reward and discipline in the millennial kingdom. To me, it is the only way that makes sense at all, as God is neither fickle and bestowing of a cheap salvation, but neither is He mocked. I would love to share more citations if you are interested.
you said "Jesus" is not in us - what about Col. 1:27 "Christ (Jesus) in you the hope of glory" or 2 Cor. 13:5 do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you....
Yes, they do. Those who claim one is biblical and the other is not simply does not know what they are talking about, and are not as familiar with the teachings of Watchman Nee as they might claim.
To my knowledge, Lee took some ideas from Watchman Nee and built on them. Sometimes he even drastically changed some of them as he felt he received additional revelation as the “Minister of the Age” who, according to him, leads all the churches on earth. Essentially, he’s like the pope to the people of The Lord’s Recovery.
Peanut is telling half-truths and doesn't have any actual knowledge on the subject. He can't provide any evidence that WItness Lee did not teach the same things that Watchman Nee taught.
Here's a quote from Witness Lee's ministry: "When speaking points of the truth, we should not say, 'Brother So-and-so says...' Instead, we should discern what is according to the Bible and say, 'The Bible says...'" (The Recovery of Christ as Everything in the Church, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). And another from a different book: "Concerning any matter of the truth, we should not say, 'This is what Brother Lee says.' To say this is wrong. We should not rely on what any brother says; rather, we should rely on the truth. The truth is not what a certain brother says; it is what the Bible says. We need to learn the specific verses that are related to certain truths. Then we can open the Bible to those verses and show others, saying, 'Here the Bible says this.' In this way we will not be following any brother; rather, we will be following the truth of the Bible." (Crucial Principles for the Proper Church Life, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). So, I would strongly suggest the quotes in the video are taken out of context.
When I was in The Lord’s Recovery, we sometimes would start teaching from the bible. Often what would happen is that more and more people would start teaching things straight from the scriptures that contradicted Lee’s unique doctrines. Little by little, they’d start replacing bible reading with materials from Witness Lee’s publishing company known as Living Stream Ministry. At some point, we’d be reading nothing but Witness Lee’s teachings because, according to them, the bible was too complicated and it would be easier to have someone else prepare all the interpretation for us rather than searching the scriptures ourselves. Whenever someone would make a big enough fuss about their neglect of the scriptures, they’d go back to reading the bible more so people wouldn’t get too suspicious, but they’d inevitably transition back to just reading Lee’s materials because they felt reading purely from the scriptures and discussing it together would be dangerous.
interesting percentage there 😅 to be fair, we're all 50/50 given that we're all sinners. perhaps that's why a judgment day is necessary from a biblical point of view
Hi Steph In the beginning was the Word.......and the Word was God, And the Word became flesh.....(John1:1,14) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45) How about spreading something positive The Lord says Do you love Me.......Feed my sheep etc. I am sorry to say you lack a lot of truth and experience Do yourself a favour and stop this foolishness
Hi again from someone in the local churches. Due to what I think may be restrictions on comment length, I'm going to leave just a few short comments. First, regarding the Trinity, look for the book What a Heresy--Two Divine Fathers, Two Life-Giving Spirits, and Three Gods! by Witness Lee. I won't post a link in case that is also restricted, but you should be able to find it through a search. This will get into the matter of the Trinity in a better way than what you've shared here. Regarding doctrines killing, context is vital. This was an extreme statement to deal with an extreme situation. Lee always taught we need both the Spirit and the Word, and he has endless publications where he is delivering teachings. Regarding being saved, again, context. What you cite should not be considered an exhaustive presentation of Lee's soteriology; it is likely a word on Saul's conversion experience. Regarding the millenium, how do you interpret the parable of the virgins and the slaves in Matthew 25? To teach that those who were buffeted were either unbelievers or that they lost their salvation is not consistent with the scriptures. Regarding overcomers, are you aware that Lee taught there would be overcomers from Protestantism and Catholicism? Read the footnotes on Revelation 2 and 3 for more details on this.
Regarding the parable of the 10 virgins: In many Biblical passages, oil is an emblem of the Holy Spirit (such as Zechariah 4:1-7). Without oil the wedding party was not ready for the bridegroom. Without the Holy Spirit, no one is ready for the return of Jesus. No one can be a true Christian without the indwelling Holy Spirit, as it says in Romans 8:9: Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. In this parable Jesus probably did not intend a separation between “Spirit-filled” and “Non-Spirit-filled” Christians; the distinction is likely between true Christians and false believers. (Cited from Enduring Word Bible commentary)
@@drpepandpepper Thanks for engaging with the scriptures. However, the verses are clear that all 10 virgins had lamps burning prior to the bridegroom's return, implying all started out with oil. So all of them represent believers. Furthermore, it is clear from the entire parable that the lesson has nothing to do with being a true or false Christian, but of prudence and foolishness (verses 3-4). This is confirmed by the Lord's concluding word: "Watch therefore". The same theme is continued in the next parable, concerning of the slaves and the talents, further confirming the Lord's intention in speaking these parables.
@@hikaruelio3229 My responses: 1. Matt 25:3 says that the foolish virgins took no oil with them. The wise ones took oil in their vessels. 2. Matt 25:8 says that they requested oil from the wise virgins because their lamps were going out. They did not have the oil in their vessels to continue. You cannot have a relationship with Jesus on borrowed faith. You need a personal relationship and must own it. 3. Matt 25:11-12 says that the virgins called upon the Lord after the door had shut, but He rejected them saying, "I do not know you." 4. Matthew 25:13 ESV - "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." 5. Application: Are you ready? This parable is not about the difference between mature and immature believers. It is about what will happen to those who are saved versus those who are not. Verse 13 is warning for those in the church against "looking the part, but lacking the heart." Don't wait to repent and give your life to Jesus. Don't procrastinate thinking that your good works of going to church and going through the motions will save you. Place your complete faith and trust in Christ today! Some Christians are ready for Christ's return and some are not, because they are not in fact Christians at all. Attending church does not make you a Christian. Moralistic therapeutic deism does not mean you know Christ. 6. Does Jesus not know those who have been born again? Does it make sense to you that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith PLUS christian maturity? Go back and listen to Stephanie's comments regarding the Matt 8 passage. Witness Lee's understanding of "sons of the kingdom" is incorrect. This refers to the Jews, not born-again Christians. 7. Quote at (23:27). There is absolutely no concept of this in the Bible. The idea that there are different tiers of Christians and that to be a "top Christian" you must ascribe to WL's theology and organization. The Body of Christ and the Lord's Recovery movement are being conflated.
@@hikaruelio3229 My responses: 1. Matt 25:3 says that the foolish virgins took no oil with them. The wise ones took oil in their vessels. 2. Matt 25:8 says that they requested oil from the wise virgins because their lamps were going out. They did not have the oil in their vessels to continue. You cannot have a relationship with Jesus on borrowed faith. You need a personal relationship and must own it. 3. Matt 25:11-12 says that the virgins called upon the Lord after the door had shut, but He rejected them saying, "I do not know you." 4. Matthew 25:13 ESV - "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." 5. Application: Are you ready? This parable is not about the difference between mature and immature believers. It is about what will happen to those who are saved versus those who are not. Verse 13 is warning for those in the church against "looking the part, but lacking the heart." Don't wait to repent and give your life to Jesus. Don't procrastinate thinking that your good works of going to church and going through the motions will save you. Place your complete faith and trust in Christ today! Some Christians are ready for Christ's return and some are not, because they are not in fact Christians at all. Attending church does not make you a Christian. Moralistic therapeutic deism does not mean you know Christ. 6. Does Jesus not know those who have been born again? Does it make sense to you that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith PLUS christian maturity? Go back and listen to Stephanie's comments regarding the Matt 8 passage. Witness Lee's understanding of "sons of the kingdom" is incorrect. This refers to the Jews, not born-again Christians. 7. Quote at (23:27). There is absolutely no concept of this in the Bible. The idea that there are different tiers of Christians and that to be a "top Christian" you must ascribe to WL's theology and organization. The Body of Christ and the Lord's Recovery movement are being conflated here.
My responses: 1. Matt 25:3 says that the foolish virgins took no oil with them. The wise ones took oil in their vessels. 2. Matt 25:8 says that they requested oil from the wise virgins because their lamps were going out. They did not have the oil in their vessels to continue. You cannot have a relationship with Jesus on borrowed faith. You need a personal relationship and must own it. 3. Matt 25:11-12 says that the virgins called upon the Lord after the door had shut, but He rejected them saying, "I do not know you." 4. Matthew 25:13 ESV - "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."
He sis did you just say the holy spirit isn't jesus that's wrong sis, according to the bible Christ is both the father and the spirit not in the sense of persons, but essentially by quality check this out Rom. 8:10 But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. 1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written,"The first man, Adam, became a living soul''; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
Sis try and explain the scriptures with context paul said that ministration is not of letters but of spirit meaning that the new testament economy is the ministry of the spirit even the gospels and epistles are letter in we come to them without torching the spirit, contacting the spirit is so vital to our coming to the bible, without it we will not be able to receive God's breath in the scripture instead we will take death into us
So, we're supposed to believe you, someone still grappling with youthful passions, over a man who has dedicated his entire life to studying, practicing, and teaching the Bible? I apologize; that's my defensive side speaking, trying to protect the religious group I was raised in. My family left the Lord's Recovery after 11 years. Many others are leaving as well, realizing that they spend more time reading Lee's books than the Bible. Additionally, some teachings-such as the mixed spirit, invoking, pray-reading, and inappropriate marriages-are not aligned with biblical teachings.
nope. u dont need to listen to her but you do need to listen to the word of God. if anyone 's teaching contradicts the word of god, there's no point defending it
@@bernardkeithfong Sometimes it is obvious that the words of someone contradicts the "word of god", but as scripture already seems paradoxal in itself, it is often up to interpretation : this is why there is something called theology. You can't just read the bible and understand it on your own as it depends on your level of understanding. Most people can't just understand the bible and spend their whole christian life in illusion... even if they stick to the scripture
No, we are supposed to take her words, reasoning, and explanations and compare it to the words, reasoning, and explanations of Witness Lee. Someone like Witness Lee who was older and claimed to be an authority can be wrong. Someone like her who is young and presents arguments for critique can be right. "youthful passions" don't come into play - we take what is said and test it, that's all.
@@maxspringer01 Agreed. As a former member of The Lord’s Recovery, I appreciate and concur with her analysis. There is an expectation to submit unquestionably to Lee’s teachings as he is seen as the “wise master builder” and “God’s deputy authority on earth.” His teachings are seen as the one true way for the church to follow and to critique him is seen as rebellious. _Look around at the entire situation of Christianity today. Where are the revelation and the vision? We have the same Bible in our hands, but some people have no light even after they have read it a hundred times. In the Lord’s recovery, every page, every verse, every sentence, and even every word shine with revelation and light. I believe that outside the Lord’s recovery it is difficult to hear a word about Apollos like the one that is recorded in this chapter. The reason for this is that there is no light. [23]_ _There is only one blueprint and one master builder in the proper, correct building. The only master builder is the architect who has the blueprint in his hand. This is true in every age. The Lord issues the blueprint, the revelation, and the utterance, and through one man He supervise and completes the building work. All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man are void of light and revelation and are not serving according to the vision. Today in the Lord’s recovery some are preaching and publishing messages. The portions in their messages that impart light, revelation, and the life supply invariably derive their source from this ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Other than those portions there is no revelation or vision in their writings. [24]_ _In the history of the development of Christian doctrine, this entire set of truths finds its full recovery only among us. Such truths such as selection, calling, regeneration, sanctification, renewing, transformation, conformation, and glorification were not recovered much before us, and the recovery of these truths will not increase much after us. This set of truths has found its full recovery among us. [68]_ _We are all in the Lord’s recovery, and we have all seen today’s concluded vision. Even if some cannot follow and do not see clearly, they should not say anything. As long as they follow, they will obtain the blessing. The sons of Noah did not see the vision that he saw, yet they were in one accord with their father. They closely followed him, and they were saved in the same way that their father was saved. Peter was also one who blindly followed the Lord. He did not know anything. He only knew that the vision was with the Lord, and he followed. In the end he received the blessing. [73-74]_ _The truth that the Lord has given to His recovery is the most comprehensive. We do not need to think of what to say or how to say it. Even if we were to strain our mind and exhaust our effort to think of something to say, we may not say anything better than what is in our published materials. The materials in the Lord’s recovery are rich and plentiful. [122]_ _We are the Lord’s recovery. If the Lord does not bless us, whom will He bless? [249]_ *(Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord’s Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way, from the Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 2, published by Living Stream Ministry)*
Here's a quote from Witness Lee's ministry: "When speaking points of the truth, we should not say, 'Brother So-and-so says...' Instead, we should discern what is according to the Bible and say, 'The Bible says...'" (The Recovery of Christ as Everything in the Church, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). And another from a different book: "Concerning any matter of the truth, we should not say, 'This is what Brother Lee says.' To say this is wrong. We should not rely on what any brother says; rather, we should rely on the truth. The truth is not what a certain brother says; it is what the Bible says. We need to learn the specific verses that are related to certain truths. Then we can open the Bible to those verses and show others, saying, 'Here the Bible says this.' In this way we will not be following any brother; rather, we will be following the truth of the Bible." (Crucial Principles for the Proper Church Life, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). So, I would strongly suggest the quotes in the video are taken out of context.
The bible is not adequate to really reveal jesus or what he meant to you in the gospels and epistles, the spirit adequately and completely reveal this wonderful person to us that's why the lord said when he will come the spirit he will guide you into all truth amen
@@okechukwujosiah2810 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
@controlclerk no doubt but except we contact the spirit the scripture remains deaths to us that's why I said the spirit is the complete and adequate means Christ can be reveals to us we need to know how to contact the spirit, that's when the scriptures can profit us,
"I am not part of this movement, but I have been studying Witness Lee and Watchman Nee's ministry for almost a 3 year and a half. Thank you for this kind of content-it encourages me to dig deeper into Lee's ministry.but If you read more of his writings, you will understand why he says those things and how he came up with those ideas, especially concerning the Triune God." 😊 May the holy Spirit guide you in your study.
you have no idea how this video is helpful to me at the time I started having fellowship with them. Thank you so much.
Well explained about the truth Stephanie Hu. May God Bless You and Keep loving you for the rest of the life.😊
Thorough. Well thought out. Wonderful! Very helpful to my understandings of Christian faith.
What would have made this thorough and fair is the inclusion of verses used to support the teachings mentioned from the other side's point of view. The lack of those verses, however, may simply be due to her being unaware of them, not having researched the teachings, and hence the posting of this video.
Keep up the inspirational work
Praise the Lord, brothers and sisters, hope this may help to enlightened us all. There are lots of verses regarding the essence of Triune God. Somewhere in the book of Psalms, it says, about 3 things, the spring (fountain), the well and the stream (flows) are 3 different things but are one. Both have the same substance and nature WATER (liquid). Regarding how the doctrines, teachings and letters kills, simply says ( the "Logos" black & white text (letters can kills, while the "Rhema" where doctrine, teaching and letters becomes spirit and life to us. And last, the 1000 years discipline is just a place of discipline not a lake of fire (which is forever and intended only for Satan, false prophet and for those who did NOT written their names in the book of life. 1000 years is just a discipline for the defeated believers, but we will all enjoy the same and consummate to the new heaven and new earth in eternity future. Kindly note i Revelation that there is distinction with the New Jerusalem and the Nations surrounds them.
Witness Lee teachings are some kind of unique for sure, never heard such teachings. I always stay cautious about new schools who bring completely new types of interpretation, why would the old schools be wrong and why would we need someone from the 20nd century to finally know the real meaning of the bible : doesn't make sense
The old schools weren’t wrong. Nee and Lee stole their ministry from older Christian writers before them and passed it off as their own
Thank you for doing research in this stuff. I'm too lazy to research all this stuff lol which I should because I'm in it, lol. I'll tell yea this, ever since I joined them, I've always had to keep my ears open and try to distinguish what they are saying. On the flip side, they offer cheap rent for me as a student 😂
Also, as I have witness (hehe) by being in the recovery for about a year now, along with me studying other denominations, It seems to me that witness lee seems to have studied the bible and came to his own conclusions which basically looks likes he's adopted the Non-Denom/Bapist view but mixed up with some Orthodox/Cathlic views as well.
For example, the 1000 year discipline - Catholics believe in purgatory which is the same thing.
Another example is that they believe they are the true church like catholics/orthodox. - They wont say it though because they hold the protostant views as the main belief system so they can lose that true church spot to another if you get what I am saying.
As for the "Knowledge kills, Doctrine kills....." I was like bruh.. Knowlegde builds a good foundation for your faith so when faith is low, you have knowledge to recall to.
Anyways, I feel more as an observer which is fine. They are more or less just another denomination to me.
@@wilhelm1192 You should ask some of the harder questions to the ones you are meeting with, and then ask another denomination about it. Ask for verses from both. These things may sound like comparable teachings from other places you've been to, but there is a lot more to them than you have found on the surface (I say that about both Witness Lee's teaching, and the teachings of Catholicism or Protestants). Just to use the examples you brought out, the kingdom discipline and purgatory are not at all the same, apart from being something other than heaven or hell that you're accustomed to hearing. Also, the churches do NOT believe they are the "true church"; rather, we believe ALL blood-washed believers constitute the church as the Body of Christ. Lastly, "knowledge kills, doctrine kills" are based on verses. You could start with 2 Corinthians 3:6, as shared in the video. Anyway, much grace to you in your pursuit of the Lord.
Honestly, the more you meet with them, the more you’ll pick up on their odd traditions and doctrines.
@@wilhelm1192 sorry you are confused
@@hikaruelio3229Amen brother they lack thorough examination of the word and fellowship with the lord with much prayers to get into the word
Don’t study the Bible? That’s crazy lol 😂
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.”
Hosea 4:6 NKJV
Great job on this whole video!
Here's a quote from Witness Lee's ministry: "When speaking points of the truth, we should not say, 'Brother So-and-so says...' Instead, we should discern what is according to the Bible and say, 'The Bible says...'" (The Recovery of Christ as Everything in the Church, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). And another from a different book: "Concerning any matter of the truth, we should not say, 'This is what Brother Lee says.' To say this is wrong. We should not rely on what any brother says; rather, we should rely on the truth. The truth is not what a certain brother says; it is what the Bible says. We need to learn the specific verses that are related to certain truths. Then we can open the Bible to those verses and show others, saying, 'Here the Bible says this.' In this way we will not be following any brother; rather, we will be following the truth of the Bible." (Crucial Principles for the Proper Church Life, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). So, I would strongly suggest the quotes in the video are taken out of context.
@@hikaruelio3229 the local churches want you to study the Bible…..as interpreted by Lee. they want you to spend hours reading the life studies. they want you to speak only things Witness Lee said, and they forbid any other authors on their shelves. they wouldn’t make as much money if they sold anyone else would they
imagine if I moved into your home and said you can only live life through the words that I say, and you can only speak things that I have said. would that be controlling?
“If you are not in the local churches you are not in the church” -Witness Lee
ruclips.net/user/shortsJGYRB7cAAbI?si=zLZDwq07oPpWfsxg
wait - so Jesus is the "Father" but He is not the "Father" despite its plain words? What about John 14:9 - He who has seen me has seen the Father? or what about 2 Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit? or what about Jn 4:24 - God (the Father) is Spirit? these verses clearly show that essentially, Jesus is God and Jesus is the Spirit and that God is the Spirit....
Amen
Amen
2 john 3,9 & Jude 1 - God the Father. 👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️💯
Overcomers doctrine is just an endorsement of purgatory. Ironic, considering the dispensationalism found in Lee's interpretation of Revelation, where the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Actually this teaching was expounded extensively by Christian writers such as DM Panton, Robert Govett, and even Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. Lee considered it unnecessary to expound these matters in depth because of how much these other authors already dealt with them.
@hikaruelio3229 Lee says overcomers will reign in the millenial kingdom with Christ, while other saved believers will be in outer darkness. Why does Christ's blood cover the overcomer's sins but the rest of His believers must suffer in outer darkness, if not for the same reasoning that Catholics use for purgatory?
The methodology may be different, but the same type of spirit is driving the doctrine, i.e. there are some believers who are better than others. Those who don't meet the standard will either be purged (purgatory) or expelled for 1k years (Lee).
@@controlclerk You ought to ask the Lord Himself why in His words to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 He promises rewards to those who overcome, and not to all His children in the churches. But I think it is rather obvious that not all are faithful with what they have been given. What puzzles me is why you are still quoting Lee when I made it clear the millenial reward and discipline wasn't uniquely His teaching. Why not go after Polycarp?
@hikaruelio3229 "not to all His children in the churches"
Citation, please. Those letters say things like, "I will come to you and remove your lampstand unless you repent." How do you say, "remove your lampstand" means you will still be saved?
"Not all are faithful"
How can an unfaithful person be saved? Wouldn't that just be a false believer?
"Polycarp"
Polycarp spoke of overcoming trials and tribulations and persevering in the faith. There's nothing in his writings that says those who overcome will get a greater reward. He also doesn't mention people being saved who didn't overcome.
Overcomer doctrine is a form of Christian perfectionism. The only "overcomer" is Jesus Christ. Our perfection rests solely on Him, not our deeds.
@@controlclerk Those first two go together. In Rev. 2 and 3, the Lord acknowledges the believers' faith, love and works, not something that makes sense to do to a "false believer" (I'm not even quite sure of what you mean by this, but I would assume this is an unregenerated person). He then gives warnings to the same people and calls them to overcome. It is clear then that genuine (regenerated) believers still need to overcome, and would either be rewarded for doing so, or disciplined and suffer loss. This does not mean they become unregenerated, however. The thought is the same with Paul in 1 Corinthians 3, that a believer building improperly would suffer loss, but still be saved, though through fire.
Polycarp says, “If we please Him in this present Age, we shall also receive the Age to Come; and if we walk worthy of Him, we shall also reign together with Him.” Notice the "if"s. This does not mean he believed in the loss of salvation. He and the early church looked forward to the reward in the next age, obtained through martyrdom (which falls into the category of a work).
I have lots of quotes by lots of Christian authors regarding this matter of reward and discipline in the millennial kingdom. To me, it is the only way that makes sense at all, as God is neither fickle and bestowing of a cheap salvation, but neither is He mocked. I would love to share more citations if you are interested.
you said "Jesus" is not in us - what about Col. 1:27 "Christ (Jesus) in you the hope of glory" or 2 Cor. 13:5 do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you....
This lady is clearly wrong on multiple points
Do Watchman Nee and Witness Lee share the same theology/doctrine? I keep seeing that Watchman Nee was biblical while Lee was not. Thoughts?
Yes, they do. Those who claim one is biblical and the other is not simply does not know what they are talking about, and are not as familiar with the teachings of Watchman Nee as they might claim.
To my knowledge, Lee took some ideas from Watchman Nee and built on them. Sometimes he even drastically changed some of them as he felt he received additional revelation as the “Minister of the Age” who, according to him, leads all the churches on earth. Essentially, he’s like the pope to the people of The Lord’s Recovery.
Peanut is telling half-truths and doesn't have any actual knowledge on the subject. He can't provide any evidence that WItness Lee did not teach the same things that Watchman Nee taught.
Dude do you have relationships with the Lord ? To say this..🤦@@Peanut9527
Witness is to Watchman as was Timothy to Paul,most faithful.He was actually sent by Watchman out of China to preserve teaching and spread the ministry
The whole "not reading the Bible" he preaches is pretty alarming
Here's a quote from Witness Lee's ministry: "When speaking points of the truth, we should not say, 'Brother So-and-so says...' Instead, we should discern what is according to the Bible and say, 'The Bible says...'" (The Recovery of Christ as Everything in the Church, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). And another from a different book: "Concerning any matter of the truth, we should not say, 'This is what Brother Lee says.' To say this is wrong. We should not rely on what any brother says; rather, we should rely on the truth. The truth is not what a certain brother says; it is what the Bible says. We need to learn the specific verses that are related to certain truths. Then we can open the Bible to those verses and show others, saying, 'Here the Bible says this.' In this way we will not be following any brother; rather, we will be following the truth of the Bible." (Crucial Principles for the Proper Church Life, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). So, I would strongly suggest the quotes in the video are taken out of context.
When I was in The Lord’s Recovery, we sometimes would start teaching from the bible. Often what would happen is that more and more people would start teaching things straight from the scriptures that contradicted Lee’s unique doctrines. Little by little, they’d start replacing bible reading with materials from Witness Lee’s publishing company known as Living Stream Ministry. At some point, we’d be reading nothing but Witness Lee’s teachings because, according to them, the bible was too complicated and it would be easier to have someone else prepare all the interpretation for us rather than searching the scriptures ourselves.
Whenever someone would make a big enough fuss about their neglect of the scriptures, they’d go back to reading the bible more so people wouldn’t get too suspicious, but they’d inevitably transition back to just reading Lee’s materials because they felt reading purely from the scriptures and discussing it together would be dangerous.
interesting percentage there 😅 to be fair, we're all 50/50 given that we're all sinners. perhaps that's why a judgment day is necessary from a biblical point of view
Hello my dear sis in Christ
Jesus will become everlasting Father because he will adopt us as his children....note through adoption...Ephesian 1. 4 - 5
Hi Steph In the beginning was the Word.......and the Word was God, And the Word became flesh.....(John1:1,14) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45) How about spreading something positive The Lord says Do you love Me.......Feed my sheep etc. I am sorry to say you lack a lot of truth and experience Do yourself a favour and stop this foolishness
Hi again from someone in the local churches. Due to what I think may be restrictions on comment length, I'm going to leave just a few short comments. First, regarding the Trinity, look for the book What a Heresy--Two Divine Fathers, Two Life-Giving Spirits, and Three Gods! by Witness Lee. I won't post a link in case that is also restricted, but you should be able to find it through a search. This will get into the matter of the Trinity in a better way than what you've shared here. Regarding doctrines killing, context is vital. This was an extreme statement to deal with an extreme situation. Lee always taught we need both the Spirit and the Word, and he has endless publications where he is delivering teachings. Regarding being saved, again, context. What you cite should not be considered an exhaustive presentation of Lee's soteriology; it is likely a word on Saul's conversion experience. Regarding the millenium, how do you interpret the parable of the virgins and the slaves in Matthew 25? To teach that those who were buffeted were either unbelievers or that they lost their salvation is not consistent with the scriptures. Regarding overcomers, are you aware that Lee taught there would be overcomers from Protestantism and Catholicism? Read the footnotes on Revelation 2 and 3 for more details on this.
Regarding the parable of the 10 virgins: In many Biblical passages, oil is an emblem of the Holy Spirit (such as Zechariah 4:1-7). Without oil the wedding party was not ready for the bridegroom. Without the Holy Spirit, no one is ready for the return of Jesus. No one can be a true Christian without the indwelling Holy Spirit, as it says in Romans 8:9: Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. In this parable Jesus probably did not intend a separation between “Spirit-filled” and “Non-Spirit-filled” Christians; the distinction is likely between true Christians and false believers. (Cited from Enduring Word Bible commentary)
@@drpepandpepper Thanks for engaging with the scriptures. However, the verses are clear that all 10 virgins had lamps burning prior to the bridegroom's return, implying all started out with oil. So all of them represent believers. Furthermore, it is clear from the entire parable that the lesson has nothing to do with being a true or false Christian, but of prudence and foolishness (verses 3-4). This is confirmed by the Lord's concluding word: "Watch therefore". The same theme is continued in the next parable, concerning of the slaves and the talents, further confirming the Lord's intention in speaking these parables.
@@hikaruelio3229 My responses:
1. Matt 25:3 says that the foolish virgins took no oil with them. The wise ones took oil in their vessels.
2. Matt 25:8 says that they requested oil from the wise virgins because their lamps were going out. They did not have the oil in their vessels to continue. You cannot have a relationship with Jesus on borrowed faith. You need a personal relationship and must own it.
3. Matt 25:11-12 says that the virgins called upon the Lord after the door had shut, but He rejected them saying, "I do not know you."
4. Matthew 25:13 ESV - "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."
5. Application: Are you ready? This parable is not about the difference between mature and immature believers. It is about what will happen to those who are saved versus those who are not. Verse 13 is warning for those in the church against "looking the part, but lacking the heart."
Don't wait to repent and give your life to Jesus. Don't procrastinate thinking that your good works of going to church and going through the motions will save you. Place your complete faith and trust in Christ today!
Some Christians are ready for Christ's return and some are not, because they are not in fact Christians at all. Attending church does not make you a Christian. Moralistic therapeutic deism does not mean you know Christ.
6. Does Jesus not know those who have been born again? Does it make sense to you that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith PLUS christian maturity? Go back and listen to Stephanie's comments regarding the Matt 8 passage. Witness Lee's understanding of "sons of the kingdom" is incorrect. This refers to the Jews, not born-again Christians.
7. Quote at (23:27). There is absolutely no concept of this in the Bible. The idea that there are different tiers of Christians and that to be a "top Christian" you must ascribe to WL's theology and organization. The Body of Christ and the Lord's Recovery movement are being conflated.
@@hikaruelio3229 My responses:
1. Matt 25:3 says that the foolish virgins took no oil with them. The wise ones took oil in their vessels.
2. Matt 25:8 says that they requested oil from the wise virgins because their lamps were going out. They did not have the oil in their vessels to continue. You cannot have a relationship with Jesus on borrowed faith. You need a personal relationship and must own it.
3. Matt 25:11-12 says that the virgins called upon the Lord after the door had shut, but He rejected them saying, "I do not know you."
4. Matthew 25:13 ESV - "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."
5. Application: Are you ready? This parable is not about the difference between mature and immature believers. It is about what will happen to those who are saved versus those who are not. Verse 13 is warning for those in the church against "looking the part, but lacking the heart."
Don't wait to repent and give your life to Jesus. Don't procrastinate thinking that your good works of going to church and going through the motions will save you. Place your complete faith and trust in Christ today!
Some Christians are ready for Christ's return and some are not, because they are not in fact Christians at all. Attending church does not make you a Christian. Moralistic therapeutic deism does not mean you know Christ.
6. Does Jesus not know those who have been born again? Does it make sense to you that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith PLUS christian maturity? Go back and listen to Stephanie's comments regarding the Matt 8 passage. Witness Lee's understanding of "sons of the kingdom" is incorrect. This refers to the Jews, not born-again Christians.
7. Quote at (23:27). There is absolutely no concept of this in the Bible. The idea that there are different tiers of Christians and that to be a "top Christian" you must ascribe to WL's theology and organization. The Body of Christ and the Lord's Recovery movement are being conflated here.
My responses:
1. Matt 25:3 says that the foolish virgins took no oil with them. The wise ones took oil in their vessels.
2. Matt 25:8 says that they requested oil from the wise virgins because their lamps were going out. They did not have the oil in their vessels to continue. You cannot have a relationship with Jesus on borrowed faith. You need a personal relationship and must own it.
3. Matt 25:11-12 says that the virgins called upon the Lord after the door had shut, but He rejected them saying, "I do not know you."
4. Matthew 25:13 ESV - "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."
He sis did you just say the holy spirit isn't jesus that's wrong sis, according to the bible Christ is both the father and the spirit not in the sense of persons, but essentially by quality check this out
Rom. 8:10
But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom. 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
1 Cor. 15:45
So also it is written,"The first man, Adam, became a living soul''; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
Sis try and explain the scriptures with context paul said that ministration is not of letters but of spirit meaning that the new testament economy is the ministry of the spirit even the gospels and epistles are letter in we come to them without torching the spirit, contacting the spirit is so vital to our coming to the bible, without it we will not be able to receive God's breath in the scripture instead we will take death into us
Where did Jesus say he is God? Show me the verse.
You're so confused.
Would you date an older Christian man?
So, we're supposed to believe you, someone still grappling with youthful passions, over a man who has dedicated his entire life to studying, practicing, and teaching the Bible? I apologize; that's my defensive side speaking, trying to protect the religious group I was raised in. My family left the Lord's Recovery after 11 years. Many others are leaving as well, realizing that they spend more time reading Lee's books than the Bible. Additionally, some teachings-such as the mixed spirit, invoking, pray-reading, and inappropriate marriages-are not aligned with biblical teachings.
nope. u dont need to listen to her but you do need to listen to the word of God. if anyone 's teaching contradicts the word of god, there's no point defending it
@@bernardkeithfong Sometimes it is obvious that the words of someone contradicts the "word of god", but as scripture already seems paradoxal in itself, it is often up to interpretation : this is why there is something called theology. You can't just read the bible and understand it on your own as it depends on your level of understanding. Most people can't just understand the bible and spend their whole christian life in illusion... even if they stick to the scripture
No, we are supposed to take her words, reasoning, and explanations and compare it to the words, reasoning, and explanations of Witness Lee. Someone like Witness Lee who was older and claimed to be an authority can be wrong. Someone like her who is young and presents arguments for critique can be right. "youthful passions" don't come into play - we take what is said and test it, that's all.
@@maxspringer01
Agreed. As a former member of The Lord’s Recovery, I appreciate and concur with her analysis. There is an expectation to submit unquestionably to Lee’s teachings as he is seen as the “wise master builder” and “God’s deputy authority on earth.” His teachings are seen as the one true way for the church to follow and to critique him is seen as rebellious.
_Look around at the entire situation of Christianity today. Where are the revelation and the vision? We have the same Bible in our hands, but some people have no light even after they have read it a hundred times. In the Lord’s recovery, every page, every verse, every sentence, and even every word shine with revelation and light. I believe that outside the Lord’s recovery it is difficult to hear a word about Apollos like the one that is recorded in this chapter. The reason for this is that there is no light. [23]_
_There is only one blueprint and one master builder in the proper, correct building. The only master builder is the architect who has the blueprint in his hand. This is true in every age. The Lord issues the blueprint, the revelation, and the utterance, and through one man He supervise and completes the building work. All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man are void of light and revelation and are not serving according to the vision. Today in the Lord’s recovery some are preaching and publishing messages. The portions in their messages that impart light, revelation, and the life supply invariably derive their source from this ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Other than those portions there is no revelation or vision in their writings. [24]_
_In the history of the development of Christian doctrine, this entire set of truths finds its full recovery only among us. Such truths such as selection, calling, regeneration, sanctification, renewing, transformation, conformation, and glorification were not recovered much before us, and the recovery of these truths will not increase much after us. This set of truths has found its full recovery among us. [68]_
_We are all in the Lord’s recovery, and we have all seen today’s concluded vision. Even if some cannot follow and do not see clearly, they should not say anything. As long as they follow, they will obtain the blessing. The sons of Noah did not see the vision that he saw, yet they were in one accord with their father. They closely followed him, and they were saved in the same way that their father was saved. Peter was also one who blindly followed the Lord. He did not know anything. He only knew that the vision was with the Lord, and he followed. In the end he received the blessing. [73-74]_
_The truth that the Lord has given to His recovery is the most comprehensive. We do not need to think of what to say or how to say it. Even if we were to strain our mind and exhaust our effort to think of something to say, we may not say anything better than what is in our published materials. The materials in the Lord’s recovery are rich and plentiful. [122]_
_We are the Lord’s recovery. If the Lord does not bless us, whom will He bless? [249]_
*(Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord’s Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way, from the Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 2, published by Living Stream Ministry)*
Here's a quote from Witness Lee's ministry: "When speaking points of the truth, we should not say, 'Brother So-and-so says...' Instead, we should discern what is according to the Bible and say, 'The Bible says...'" (The Recovery of Christ as Everything in the Church, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). And another from a different book: "Concerning any matter of the truth, we should not say, 'This is what Brother Lee says.' To say this is wrong. We should not rely on what any brother says; rather, we should rely on the truth. The truth is not what a certain brother says; it is what the Bible says. We need to learn the specific verses that are related to certain truths. Then we can open the Bible to those verses and show others, saying, 'Here the Bible says this.' In this way we will not be following any brother; rather, we will be following the truth of the Bible." (Crucial Principles for the Proper Church Life, CWWL, 1978, vol. 3). So, I would strongly suggest the quotes in the video are taken out of context.
The bible is not adequate to really reveal jesus or what he meant to you in the gospels and epistles, the spirit adequately and completely reveal this wonderful person to us that's why the lord said when he will come the spirit he will guide you into all truth amen
Is Witness Lee the spirit?
@Just-n9x amen brother the spirit is the spirit of Jesus that is in all the believers
@@okechukwujosiah2810 “for many deceivers have entered the world”
The local church is full of deceivers
@@okechukwujosiah2810 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
@controlclerk no doubt but except we contact the spirit the scripture remains deaths to us that's why I said the spirit is the complete and adequate means Christ can be reveals to us we need to know how to contact the spirit, that's when the scriptures can profit us,