Yeah, I had a very challenging time when I'd look at her. All I see is a large horizontal S.. I have a very hard time looking at people's faces when they have a lot of tattoos or animal piercings. I have to look away when talking to them. This was the same thing.
And this is what her likes are intending to do, IMO, which is why I had recommended under earlier episodes to look away from the screen to avoid seizures.
Not really since everything we create today is also triune. Take a software program for instance. There is an interface (which is both human and machine) that interacts with the human being inputting data. This then manipulates the second part of the trinity, the database, and behind all of this, we have the program language itself. The third part of the trinity.
The software program acts on the database, but is not part of it. In an analogous fashion, God casts fire and brimstone upon the sinners, but they are not part of him. Jesus cried "father, why have you forsaken me?" He and the father obviously were not one at that point. @@matthewmeyer347
I love the point about Tertullian and how his writings came to be persevered because they just happened to fall in line with future consensus regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. Really makes you wonder what we lost to history from opposing viewpoints.
Yes, Tertullian is a preternatural genius. His Adversus Praxean is a short text bristling with so much of the later technical terminology but with a somewhat different sense (clarified in 1966 in the four volume study, La théologie trinitaire de Tertullian by Joseph Moingt SJ - who died a few years ago, still churning out massive books at age 104). He was also a brilliant writer, stylist, etc.
Tertullian was not "in line" with what came to be the orthodox view on the divinity of Christ. Tertullian used the metaphor of sunlight streaming through a window to explain the relationship between the father and the son. He said that just as one will refer to a sunbeam on the wall as "the sun" while knowing that the sun itself is a separate, burning body in the sky, so too one may refer to Jesus as "God", knowing that God, Himself, is a separate and distinct Being who only shines through Christ.
That's why I find it amusing when Christians dismiss certain ideas as heresies. Heresies are just the theories that had less powerful supporters who lost the historical debate. Which is why there are so many Christian denominations, and many of them disagree completely with all the others.
Well... uh.. you know, like ... uh, God was ... uh, what's the word, right, guiding people and stuff! heh Except for all those copying mistakes and editing over time.
@@thewb8329: The books included in the Bible were all complied with God's direction. That is why the Bible has been translated into over 3,000 languages. No other book has even reached the 100 translation mark. The Bible has survived despite attempts to have it destroyed. It must surely be of value to any TRUTH seeker.
The fact that according to Christian doctrine Jesus prayed to himself & begged himself to spare himself before he was crucified because it was his will that he be gruesomely murdered is just mind-blowing. 🥴
You can't bring that up. Their answer will always be "You don't understand". Which of course can be translated as "I don't understand, and so can't explain it to you either"
@@tongakhan230 Whether you like it or not, most people on this planet who call themselves Christians think that Jesus is God, not merely a leader, & they worship him.
@@joejohnson6327 : Please read Jesus' words to the MANY so-called Christians before he does away with them (Matthew 7:23). Christians are DISCIPLES of Jesus. Not his worshipers. (John 13:35) By this all will know that you are MY DISCIPLES-if you have love among yourselves.”
I just want to say how much I appreciate and love these podcasts. You guys are great together. (And Megan's glasses are nuts, but swimming lessons followed by day care and then teaching Sumarian is so cool, random sartorial excess doesn't matter.)
So... basically they couldn't figure out any way to resolve the obvious inconsistencies that had piled up in the doctrine, and threw up their hands and said "it's a divine mystery"?
@@MarioCabradilla well yeah :) He doesn't believe in the Trinity, so he has it easy; he just considers the three to be different entities (depending on exactly which of his statements you read). But the Catholics can't use that method. :)
The easiest way to explain Trinity is on the background of the Roman imperial cult where the dead Caesars was the fathers in the sky, the son being the word being the ruling emperor and the spirit being the genius of Rome which the emperor was supposed to be the incarnation of.
I wrote an essay about the Trinity when I was in high school, I used Bart as one of my main sources and I ended up getting an A. The course was called 'Religion - Specialization'. Thanks Bart!
In Sweden we have 'specialization' courses in virtually all subjects, including religion. In those courses its all about producing a scientific research on chosen topics.@@harharharharharharharharha240
*True Jesus is in Islam* * *Jews/Judaism rejects Jesus* as a prophet/God's messenger. * *Christians believe that* Jesus was God incarnate and died as a sacrifice to redeem humans' sin. * *Islam confirms who Jesus really was.* Jesus/Isa was sent by God to Israelites to teach monotheism & enforce God's law. (Quran 61:6, 4: 157-158, 5:72, 5:116-118, 19:21,32, , etc) In the Gospel, *Jesus himself said he came/was sent only to Israelites.* He told Jews to worship God only and to teach Torah (of course to practice its law as well). (John 17:3, Matthew 5: 17-19, 10:6, 15:24, etc). Some important laws in the Torah & OT: * *God in Torah/OT is not human,* not born from a woman's womb, invisible, and will never die. (Genesis, Hosea, etc). * *God in the Torah/OT strongly prohibits human sacrifice,* since it was pagan and witch practice (Leviticus, Jeremiah, etc). The true Jesus is in Islam. So, *find out more about true Islam* from credible sources.
Not in the way Bart describes it. The Trinity is not an amalgamation or mish-mash of opposing or just different views. The committees merely chose the Trinity notion over competing views; they didn’t create it.
Thanks, Megan and Bart for a good video. Your contributions to the debates concerning Christianity are always enlightening. We would have been much poorer - spiritually and intellectually without it.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
1 John 5:5-9 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
I love the intro because it’s like” the only show where Bart Ehrman does Bart Ehrman things” but it doesn’t sound like that if you don’t think about it too much
There are serious logical and scriptural problems with the doctrine of the Trinity, but merely suggesting that it ought to be reconsidered is tantamount to blasphemy in most Christian circles. A couple of church councils met a long time ago and decided the matter, and, apparently, no one is allowed to question their assessment.
@@ObjectiveEthics You know... some other people said religion is about money. Now you're saying it's about control. I'm an atheist. I say religion is very complicated. If people come to something as simple as "control" or, "money." That definition is for their ease thought, perhaps, not for the sake of truth. Because the truth is far more complicated. That being said, I think no one likes to have their beliefs questions whether they firmly believe that BMW cars are the best, or belonging to a particular political group because they are - right, or believing in various Christian ideas.
The I have a problem with, Jesus being God,,😢 the Bible says he received immortality 😮 1st Timothy 6 verse 16 if Jesus is internal,, or not created, no beginning or no end, is that a bonus receiving immortality?, doesn't make sense, that's what I would have brought up at the, meaning of bishops, Revelation 1 verse 18 I was alive I was dead and behold I live into the ages of ages,,,, so he receives it after he died immortality a New Creation,,, we will be like Jesus, I would be hanged for saying that? We will be like Jesus and receive and put on immortality 1st Corinthians 15 verses 53 must read: so one of the internal or un created divine or the 3God head's, Jesus received immortality, the word means you have to be mortal to receive immortality if I was there, I would have mentioned that and 1st Corinthians 8 verse 5 & 6 many gods, many lords/ 6 to us (true Christian's) one God the father, one Lord Jesus, too easy to understand,,, your critic ❓🤔🧐
@@greglogan7706 Robert I don't know if you're talking about my comments,? Straight to the point, 👉 Jesus died for us 🙏 a lot of people don't even know what die for us? Amazing,,, did Jesus ,his soul died for us, his body or flash? Or his spirit? One of them, two of them 🤔 or all of them 🤔❓ your critic ❓🤔🧐
Guys, HERE is The Savior YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF” From the Ancient Semitic: "Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3) Ancient Semitic Direct Translation Yad - "Behold The Hand" He - "Behold the Breath" Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
I really like the enthusiasm Bart brings to his talks. He is a wonderful communicator. What I like about him most is he doesnt appear to have an agenda. He is a truth seeker. Megan is a perfect host too. Im reading MacDairmaid's book again and the historical and personal background that Bart provides fills in some gaps and makes it a whole lot more interesting. Bart explains the Arian heresy in much greater detail than I have seen before. I also delight in the way he eviscerates Brown. Calling Brown out for the liar he is.
Great episode. I could never believe in the Trinity based on logic which troubled me when I was a believer. Dr. Ehrman actually reinforced my lack of belief. Megan's Eyewear is "the bomb" (good).
Bart and Megan explain the "mysteries" about Christianity in a coherent and logical fashion. As they turn out, religion is man-made and subject to the whims and guiles of their perpetrators who are masters in the art of mass psychology. Really, the paradigm is applicable to politics, economics, and all matters that concern humanity. Thank you, Bart and Megan, for such enlightening videos!
Read Philippians ch. 2 in the New Testament and see why the Lord Jesus, though God and co equal with God, could still say, My Father is greater than I.
@@jayseth Jesus also says we and him are 1 doesn't make us God. Neither does it make him GOD. We are to be one with Jesus as he is one with the Father... One in purpose, one in Righteousness
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian.
@@jamesmanm3623 -- My god didn't need a weak A## "trinitarian", so = My god >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your trini god Praise be the Magic Toe Nail. I will Pray for you.
A pint with friends is preferred. Thank you for these wonderful and informative shows! Megan, thank you for assembling these with Bart and for sharing about your translating! Also: those glasses are awesome.
Human nature of Christ speaking. As a human he hungered. He prayed. He was tempted. As God in the flesh, he calmed storms with a word. As God He walked on water. As God, He healed every disease, He raised the dead, He turned a lunch into a Buffett. He turned water into wine. He opened blinded eyes. Revelation 1:8 it says that he is the Almighty…. That means Yahweh. The God of the universe.
@@KhabibTime-cb4ym His Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9,10 Galatians 4:6 Philippians 1:19 1 Peter 1:10,11 2 Corinthians 3:17 All of those verses say that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ. That’s why when the Holy Spirit is inside you the Bible says that Jesus is inside you. Christ IN YOU the hope of glory. Anyone that has the spirit inside them has Christ on the inside of them. It’s how you love the way that he does. It’s how you treat people the way that he does. It’s how you have compassion on people the way that he does.
@@oliverbrownlow5615 ...faith in what ?? Because some pope said so ?? No way, the Bible clearly shows that the trinity is nonsense. I put my faith in the written word not what some confused people voted on.Truth is not up to a vote, either it is or is'nt...
What you see here is an opinion of one skeptic Bible scholar. It actually stands in a minority amongst Bible scholars! So it's not the truth but an opinion!
@@Bullcuttermost bible scholars are christians who have to sign a statement of faith at their institutions. So I'll take a skeptic's opinion any day over that.
@@Bullcutteractually Dr Erhman's opinions normally represent the majority of Bible "scholars." Most people who've been to mainline seminaries like to feed their kids too much to reveal the common understanding they were taught and loose their job. Real Bible scholarship "don't preach." Preventing the loss of faith due to an understanding of the real text is a real problem for conservatives.
If that were so, no publisher worth their salt will publish them! But we have numerous Bible scholars with their work published by top universities! Dr. Ehrmans studied under the late Professor Bruce Metzger, a world-renowned Bible scholar of Greek New Testament. He wouldn't agree with Dr. Ehrman's theology! Nor will Dr Don Carson, another eminent Bible scholar. Dr. Ehrman stands alone in refutation of major tenants of Christianity!
Somehow, I had always compared the trinity to a user interface for a video game; the father in the divine realm is the user, the son was the modeled avatar/player character who interacts with the inhabitants of the world, the holy spirit was the in-game console that the user can use to debug the game or break the physics engine lmao Not saying that my system of comparison was better or worse than others, but that's how I made sense of it as a kid
😂 but how are those three things equal? And how do they have the same use/power/abilities? The three you've gave are completely different with different abilities which goes agaisnt the trinity that teaches that all the persons in the godhead are EQUAL IN ABILITY. (Meaning, what one can do, the other can too)
It is true that God could make a rock so big he could not lift it, but he could lift it. Trinity doesn’t need to be logical it’s just how god reveiled himself to us
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom. wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do". God is WISDOM itself. God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
Simply put, this doctrine required over three centuries to become fully developed, not becoming orthodox until the Council of Constantinople in 360 CE when the ομοουσιον (same essence) position was officially ratified, and the competing ετεροουσιον (different essence) was officially anathematized.
gabrieI eddy yes indeed, its an iIIustrati0n 0f h0w they made it up as they went aI0ng and created grand reIigi0us c0unciIs and grand new w0rds t0 f0rmaIise and Iegitimize their idi0cy n0 number 0f reIigi0us c0unciIs 0r ratificati0ns 0f 0rth0d0xy wiII make the st0ry m0re credibIe especiaIIy when y0u read the bibIe it has zer0 credibiIity
Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. No surprise that the apostate church had the name Roman in it.
To the question of different sources for the same author, and scholars debating them: I was in a church choir for some time, and beside many other pieces, we have sung Johann Sebastian Bach's St Matthew Passion and St John Passion. Johann Sebastian Bach wrote his music after the printing press was invented. And still, every time we got to the music sheets, our cantor gave us some small corrections to the music, because even the manuscripts of Johann Sebastian Bach of his own music differ, and there are debates if something is actually a speck of dirt on the manuscript or a correction, and if it's by his own hands or someone else's. Again and again, other copies of his works are found, and they carry some corrections, but not others, and there is a huge body of scholarly work tracking down the time line of Johann Sebastian Bach's own corrections to his own music.
They rarely support their assertions with Scripture. The have pre-conceived interpretation of Scripture common to theologians. They don't consider: Who said what? Deuteronomy 18:18 18”I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.” John 12:49 49”For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and how I should speak.”
You are so cool ! I love all of your eye glasses and all the colors you implement, you are a joy! Professor I love your host and I love this program and I’m so grateful.
"Her flight back to New York booked, Jennifer had seven days to pull the final script together and send it off. But they were still three scripts, at least: The Screenwriter, The Architect, and The Gate. Was it a trilogy? A triptych? A Trinity? A Trimurti? Were they each manifestations of the same thing?" - from 'Frame 39', a novel, by Rick Shands
I always thought it was a philosophical trick: 'we worship only one God', but 'we worship God AND Jesus' so they needed a way out. And invented the Trinity. I've often thought that the beginning of worshipping Jesus would be when the Jewish Christians split off, since that would be unacceptable to people who say the Sh'ma every day.
I liked this. Excellent recap. There is a two-dimensional diagram for the Trinity used in England illustrating Bishop Alexander's assertions. Good to hear Bart is in Wimbledon for dinner with bloggers.
Bart, I love your inquiring mind and thank you for attempting to honestly answer some of the most troubling questions 'believers' and 'nonbelievers' continuously ask. Perhaps it would be helpful for your audiences if you explored and commented on the psychology of the belief phenomenon itself AND the various philosophies of the numerous, different religions being professed TODAY. I realize this will require a countless number of interviews, but I am fascinated by the forever changing eyewear and hair color choices by that brilliant and beautiful young lady challenging you with thought-provoking questions.😇
I have a question for Dr Ehrman. A common practice among Christians is to pray asking God for very specific interventions that are personally meaningful here on Earth, such as protection for loved ones, or for certain individuals to win elections, or to obtain certain financial/material goals, etc. I'm not sure this practice is entirely biblical in origin? I'm guessing there may be other practices and beliefs among Christians that are commonly thought to be from the Bible, but arguably are not? Perhaps this would make for an interesting subject of your podcast? Thanks for considering this idea. 🙂
It is a strange practice if you believe in an omniscient and Omni-benevolent God. That sort of God wouldn’t need you to petition him. He would already know and care and would have have already done He thought best, which would necessarily HAVE been best. Of course there was a very long tradition of attempting to appease the gods and offering sacrifices for the gods. This long tradition long predates Christianity. Christianity mindlessly continues the tradition without worrying about the inevitable contradictions.
@jeffryphillipsburns the most common explanation I've heard is that God knows what you want, but also wants you to ask for it as a means of maintaining a relationship. Kind of like parents with toddlers who tell them to ask for what they want, despite it sometimes being obvious to the parents (except that parents do this to teach socially expected bevahiour instead of build relationship)
Praying makes a lot of people feel better about being out of control. When there is absolutely nothing which you can do to affect an outcome, you can still occupy yourself with wasting your breath directing wishes to imaginary friends.
Jesus gave his disciples apriority listing on what to pray for. Please read Matthew 6:9-13. Check it out. BTW these worldly scholars cannot explain what the Bible teaches. God veils the truth from such ones. cf Matthew 11:25,26.
@carolynsilvers9999 - Of course you can't "make yourself believe in the Trinity", God must REVEAL IT TO YOU BY HIS SPIRIT, JUST LIKE HE REVEALS "Salvation" & EVERYTHING ELSE that pertains to God.
@@jimjuri6490 Another "Cherry Picked" scripture while you OMIT verse 31 which is the KEY and says, ..."If you CONTINUE IN MY WORD..", something you OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT DONE, which is why you DO NOT KNOW THE TRUTH, (v.32), to come up with so many LIES that are not even in the WORD, like Jesus is the Arc Ange Michael !! Wake Up !!
@@jimjuri6490 Jesus is NOT an Angel, you know it, your JW 'deceivers" know it, I know it, & God knows it, because it is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE WORD.
So much history condensed in the series.... I love it! My favorite part is when I hear tidbits about when stuff was added or taken away from the Bible...like that verse in 1st John. I wish Bart would do a short series like.... Super condensed... On important passages in the Bible that were added or deleted on purpose to make a theological point.... And the time period it is historically believed to be added. The one that blew my mind was a lot of the original books of Luke didn't have the first portion that included jesus's infancy narrative... That and the story of the adulterous woman in John, that was added much later.
I don't think anything was taken away in the case of Luke's gospel regarding Jesus's infancy. Luke states his purpose at the beginning of his text, which was to gather and then order eyewitness accounts of Christ. He wrote the narrative to Theophilus, this, to assure him that what he had learned of Christ was true. _"Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, _*_just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also,_*_ having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed."_ The point here is that Luke's motive was not to account for everything that occurred in Christ's life, but only what he himself could corroborate from eyewitnesses. Matthew's gospel is widely considered to have come at least a decade prior to Luke's. And yet it includes the narrative of The Holy Family's journey to Egypt, which is missing in Luke's gospel. So why would anyone use Luke's account to suggest that the Egypt journey never occurred? Luke seemed focused upon eyewitness accounts. So it could be that he did not record the Egyptian journey because he could not find anyone who was yet alive and who had witnessed such a remote and undoubtedly private experience. As for 1 John 5:7-8, the verses were not inserted into "The Bible." They were inserted only in _The Textus Receptus,_ which was compiled by Erasmus, and later used by translations such as the KJV. But it was Erasmus himself who told us that the verses should be held in suspicion. We have known about them from their beginning. However, the fact that they were added does not mean that the doctrine of The Trinity is unbiblical or was made up out of whole cloth. As Erhman says here, the rest of the Bible declares that God is One, that Jesus is God, that The Holy Spirit is God, and that The Father is God. And in Matthew 3:16-17 the Bible shows all three of these Persons being present and active simultaneously: _"As soon as Jesus (Person #2) was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (Person #3) descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven (Person #1) said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'”_ There was only one solution to this, and Modalism was not it. Christians had accepted that The Father, the Son, and the Spirit were each God even before Nicea. But they had no formal doctrine to harmonize the belief. The ecumenical meetings merely formalized what the church generally believed. That is why there was no contest between the various points of view in these meetings. Trinitarianism had always existed between the texts. They simply formalized it, chiefly because heretics were trying to introduce doctrines that were contrary to the texts.
Hmm, as for scribal text changes, I remember some pointed remarks about a German translation of an English sf story - I think an A. E. van Voigt one - where, for whatever reason, the translator added an excessively brutal extra scene that doesn't really fit with the rest of the text. I think I have that book somewhere, but I probably cannot find it with reasonable effort. Even figuring that out must have an interesting story behind it.
And every Christian I've ever met actually worships the unholy trinity Satan Lucifer and the unholy spirit. Just like their Bible says they would. Intelligence is under rated by the religious. The Bible is very clear about these matters. No one has read religious texts for themselves in centuries it seems.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom. wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do". God is WISDOM itself. God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
Thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking discourse on the Trinity. When dealing with the Trinity a close friend would comment that "he had no problem with the Trinity, he just didn't understand it" I am a little disappointed that Bart omits mentioning the influence that Neo-Platonic philosophy had on early Christian theologians (indeed the influence that it had on all of the Abrahamic religions. I would go as far as to suggest that until you study the work of Plotinus you will never come close to understanding the concept of the Trinity.
I would argue Jesus didn’t equate the Holy Spirit with himself… he himself said when he goes to heaven he will send the holy spirt, there is clear separation
@@kencreten7308 I used to buy Casper comic books as a child, but I don’t see the connection. Did Casper divide into sub-entities, and I’m just forgetting?
@@brucecoleman1509 I love that sentiment, I only wish it was that easy… but you get into spirit of God vs Holy Spirit talk, did the Holy Spirit even exist before Jesus said he would send it, and so on… but that is not a bad thought
Some childish questions I’ve always had - (1) Do all members of the Trinity know about each other. (2). Do they talk to each other? Probably not since this would be more like taking to one’s self. (3) Do they always agree? I just have always found the Trinity to be confusing.
The Trinity is really confusing because it is a Miracle. How could Jesus be born from a Virgin mother? Where did half of his chromosomes come from? How could Jesus rise from the dead, when reverse entropy is against the laws of Thermodynamics? How could you cram all pairs of all animals in an Ark and survive the Great Flood? How could Moses possibly part the Red Sea using just his walking stick? All miracles are confusing. You cannot accept and believe 1 miracle, and reject the other miracles.
I think of it as Vishnu (Father), Krishna (“Son” who is actually the earthly avatar of the Father) , and Shakti (Spirit, which is the energetic, more feminine form of the Father). In the Bible, Jesus talks to/prays to God a lot. I don’t know how Christians reconcile that, if they eWorld accept that it would need to be reconciled.
@wotchermystic2335 You cannot attempt to reconcile how Jesus prays to God a lot, and yet Jesus and God are one and the same. Otherwise, you would also need to reconcile how Noah was able to cram a pair of all animals on Earth in his Ark, or why God had to put the Forbidden Tree near Adam & Eve. God could have built an impenetrable fence around it.
Yes, the three members of the Trinity know about each other, with perfect knowledge. They commune with one another, which is their life in eternity. They share the one divine intellect and will, therefore they always agree.
The best explanation I've heard is take a block of ice ( god the father ), heat it, it becomes liquid ( god the son ), heat it further it becomes vapour( God the holy spirit ). Cool it, it transitions from vapour to liquid to ice. Three modes of god.
I like it. But wait, so when Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth, god the father no longer existed? God the father had metaphorically melted away, right? And today, now that we've got the holy spirit, Jesus has evaporated? Perhaps we live at the Triple Point of water/god (look it up). It's all nonsense! It has NO logical foundation. It is early church spin to claim Jewish monotheistic purity and thus avoid being accused of polytheism like all those 'pagans' but at the same time deify their hero the way the Romans did all the time. You believe what you want but just know that if you 'explain' it, you don't actually know what you've signed up for. There's a reason deep-thinking, totally committed, hardcore Christians like Wycliffe & Newton rejected it outright as a man-made confection.
It's interesting to note that while evangelical Christians will immediately count as unalterably "saved" from hell any person who simply recites their Sinner's Prayer, those same evangelical Christians will condemn to hell any professing Christian who does not recognize the doctrine of the Triune God. A problematic position to say the least.
I question whether most Christians truly believe in the orthodox trinity. I dont see a way to make a cogent argument that Jesus was anything but subordinate ro God. Then there is the holy spirit which is something else altogether. When ive talked to people about the trinity casually, pretty much everyone seems to actually think more in terms of tritheism rather than the one god-three parts. Seems most likely that the trinity was invented ro be able to claim Christianity is monotheist in order to preserve a connection with Judaism for legitimacy purposes.
Why couldn't God have a son? The son would have the characteristics of the father. Difficult to tell the difference between the Holy Spirit, and Grace. seem like their function is the same.
Isaiah 44:6 says, "Beside me there is no God." Isaiah was referring to idols and images that belonged to the nations and how they were not gods at all. But that does not mean that other gods do not exist in a strict sense. In John 10:34, Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 where human judges are referred to as "gods". Those judges were gods in the sense of being representatives or spokesmen for God. Also, in Exodus 4:16, Moses was told that he would serve as "God" to Aaron and to Pharaoh. And in John 1:1, Jesus is referred to as “theos” without the definite article, meaning that he is "divine", "a god", but he is different from “theos” with the definite article also mentioned in John 1:1, which refers to Almighty God. So other “gods” exist but there is only one Almighty God.
Bart neglected to mention that modalism involves the notion that God only appears to us in 3 different modes. Augustine in his De Trinitate also believed that God is one in three modes- but he thought that those modes were ad intra. The immanent trinity is the economic trinity. The son is the image of the father and the spirit is the love of that self-reflected image. One God the father in three modalities.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom. wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do". God is WISDOM itself. God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom. wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do". God is WISDOM itself. God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
@jamesmanm3623 human philosophy, not scripture. Zechariah 14 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. That's describing the millenial reign. That's God revealed in Jesus Christ as the one true God. One God. One name!
Thank you both for a brilliant show. The Trinity has such strange origins. My sense is that the early Church didn't just come up with profound theology for the fun of it. There was some need that fueled the creation of the Trinity - I'm combining through the Church fathers trying to figure this out. 😊🙏🏽
@@CharlieBravo887 Exactly - in conjunction with the notion of one God - that is the history - and that is the truth - and that is why the evangelical brain is mush - and they worship an adulterer - and Trump won the 2020 election.... Once you go down the path of brain-mush and self-deception....
@@joejohnson6327 Yeah. It wasn't really to prove Jesus was God. They'd already decided on that in the first decades. They were just trying to figure out what that meant.
"In the beginning was the word". It's only low iq religious people who think this means Jesus is a Bible and God invented the Bible before he invented people to write the Bible. Weird interpretation of something very straight forward. The Bible is VERY clear that God is a wave maker. That the holy spirit is a Sine wave created by God, and that christ is the right arm of God, which produces the wave, which is God. The wave and its creator are inseparable as God is the lowest frequency sine wave from which all other waves are created via harmonics (angels). The Negative pole of a battery personifies the trinity more than anything. The entirety of religion is the study of waves made by God. Humans have gotten stupider by interpreting the children's version to slaves who they later fathered children with.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom. wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do". God is WISDOM itself. God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
The trinity was definitely made up, and doesn't even make sense to have 3 distinct separate entities that are all somehow the same to tell a story. Jesus never even said he was 1:1 God with the Father, often stating how different they are. The 'holy spirit' was just meant to describe the underlying 'ghost in the machine' we all have. Jesus only indicated he was A SON of God, and that WE ARE ALL SONS of this 'father' source (not just Jesus). Jesus never wanted to be worshipped as a God, and christianity was duct-taped together with the existing jewish beliefs at the time. Jesus was obviously a participant in the Eleusinian Mysteries, trying to communicate that we are 'all sons of the most high, but will die like pigs', which means we are all spiritual beings but will experience physical death like lowly animals.
The way my "Religious release" (release from school for religious education) teacher explained it was to put three separate drops of water on her hand, and then having them pool in the middle to demonstrate three separate into one. What was really happening is that my Mom felt guilty for not taking us to Church.
MEGAN, I just noticed your glasses. I kept looking at them and was thinking something looks different. Finally, I realized the design. They are absolutely the coolest looking glasses I’ve ever seen! What a beautiful design. I’m a male, but would like to see what designs are offered to males. Who designed them or what company sells this designers glasses? Very cool looking.
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.(Quran 4:171)
Really?? Are you saying this because you think God can't appear as a human?? Its even in the old testament. Even Jewish scholars have started to agree, go read Rabbi Benjamin Sommer's, "The bodies of God"
Just because 2 different cultures have similar ideas, does not necessarily mean they are related, nor does it mean they are unrelated. Evidence must be provided to make such an assertion plausible.
My issue is the bible doesnt say "Trinity" and it doesnt say they are equal. In Jesus dwelt the fullness of God, but the Son is certainly not equal to the Father...The bible simply doesnt support the Trinity doctrine.
The Bible doesn’t spell out the Trinity doctrine, but it engenders it by contradicting itself. The Trinity doctrine is an attempt to resolve certain contradictions in the Bible. Unfortunately, the Trinity doctrine is itself contradictory. The only real way to resolve the contradictions is to renounce the basic tenets of Christian faith. Jesus is not God, never was God, and didn’t become God. He was an itinerant self-appointed preacher with certain religious ideas, certain ethical ideas certain and devoted followers. When Jesus was arrested, tortured, and killed, his followers tried to come to terms with his death, the manner of his death, and the circumstance that Jesus’s central prediction did not come true. That attempt to come to terms initiated Christianity.
Excellent.. I love listening to Bart.. One of the most insightful scholars Another way to reconcile the Godhead without resorting to the "Trinity" dogma.. is a concept of "Divine Investiture".. where the Father bestowed or vested the Son with his authority to act in his name. Much like a business owner bestows upon a CEO, but on a divine level. This is a little like Bart mentions that some say God made Jesus God.. but this investiture occurs before creation of the world. See Job 38:7 and John 1 And in the end, the Son will hand over the kingdom (Like CEO handing over the business) subject himself to the Father 1 Cor 15: 20-28. A similar investiture is being done with the Holy Spirit, that the Father sends.. Within the context of investiture, the will of the Son becomes the will of the Father, simply by the entrusted delegation of authority from the father. So when Jesus speaks , it carries the same weight and authority as the Father, during the his vested stewardship. Another think that helps reconcile the Godhead.. is not to demand strict Monotheism. The ancient Jewish cosmological world view was one of Henotheism.. Worship of one God (YHWH , god of Israel) , while not denying the existence of others. Deut 32:8-9.. God divided human kind according to the number of the sons of God. Israel was YHWH own portion. This is the world view that needs to be understood with detero-Isaiah verses that are typically used to project the "One God" monotheism .. but in reality, it was to affirm that for a captive Israel, there is only ONE God for Israel , and the god of Babylon (Marduk) was real but inferior. Once you come to this epiphany and realize that the demand for a ONE of the Universe wasn't a Jewish concept, but a Neo-Platonist idea that was becoming popular in the 3rd-4th centuries.. the scriptures actually demanding a 'Trinity' dogma.. The whole Trinity dogma was simply a product of the times, the Hellenization of Christianity.
John 10:30-38 Separate individuals, but in effect the same being. 30 "I and the Father are one.” 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be set aside- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
That is similar to how the followers of Jesus understood him, born completely human but anointed/elevated by God the Father either at John's Baptism on in his resurrection.
@@Sportliveonline good for them.. I don't follow JW's ..but if they recognize that the trinity doctrine isn't actually expressed in the Bible.. good for them.
@@ji8044 I think that's kind of what Bart was saying, and probably very true for how his disciples understood him during his life and ministry.. However, it's equally plausible that he was elevated by investiture, before the world was. See Job 38 and John 1 Col 1:15-20
The whole idea of a triune God is nonsense, and was never mentioned in scripture...although some will make up places where they think it is. It is not only illogical, it is just an idea of early Roman scholars , when they created their version of Christianity. People have been conditioned to believe all this silliness and don't even know it. Step away from what you have been told all your life and learn to think.
@moehoward8691 - Let me ask you a very simple question, Do you understand what "progressive" Revelation is ? For example, When Jesus Revealed the "extensive" Revelation of "Adultery" in (Matthew 5:27,28), when He said that the SIN is actually committed in the "heart", and is NOT the "outward" physical act of 'Adultery" ? Because you know very well that God did NOT reveal "this part" of the Revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai. To say that there is NO "progressive" Revelation from God, is to say that God has ALREADY REVEALED EVERYTHING ABOUT HIMSELF in the "written" Word which is not even LIVING. I can give you a LIST OF THINGS that Jesus REVEALED in the NT that was NOT REVEALED in the OT, and NONE OF THEM "contradict" the ORIGINAL "utterance", and that INCLUDES the TRI-UNE NATURE OF GOD.
@@SY-gd6yc Do you include Hinduism in that statement? I think the Shema was a direct challenge to the polytheism that became rampant after the Great Flood. There have been many great but false religions based on polytheism.
@SY-gd6yc - The LORD is ONE, even Jesus reveals this in Mark 12:29 when he quotes Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4. "You" are also ONE Human being, but you are made up of 3 parts, Spirit, Soul, & Body. And without any of those 3 parts, you do NOT "exist" as ONE human being...Get It ??
They have certainly disbelieved who say, “Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.(Quran 5:73)
God wills therefore God is trinitarian. Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three. God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom. wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do". God is WISDOM itself. God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
@@joygibbons5482 Trinitarians say that the father( Almighty God) is one of the persons of the trinity. There is no denial when it comes to this claim and doctrine.
I've heard that the pseudopigrapha book "Odes of Solomon" affirmed the Trinity and was written between 70C.E. and 120 C.E. That date seems astronomically early. I guess the doctrine hadn't been fully worked out yet, but I'd like to hear Dr. Ehrman's take on "The Odes of Solomon" concerning the Trinity.
Philosophy is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat. Metaphysics is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. Religion is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there and shouting "I found it". Science is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat using a flashlight.
John !: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
It says the word, God's spoken word obviously, as it says in Proverbs, the wisdom of his word personified as a female, was in the beginning with God No where does the word "Jesus" appear in any of those verses. Not does the "word" mean a person any more then a book means a person Nor is their a scripture u can point to where it shows anyone Jesus was doing things with God in heaven before his birth You trinitarians are adding ur doctrine to the word it is not written here When Jesus was born then God's word and his wisdom was manifested to us. "Jesus became wisdom onto us" book of Hebrews People just care more to cling to their beliefs instead of pursue truth Always has and always will be this way
@@liberatedspirit3554 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
@@liberatedspirit3554 WORD: Strongs #s H1697 ___ used @ Jer. 1:1 & Jer. 1:2 KJV+ דָּבָר dâbâr daw-bawr' From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work. Total KJV occurrences: 1438 KJV Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin: Jer 1:2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. Jer 1:1 The words H1697 of JeremiahH3414 the sonH1121 of Hilkiah,H2518 ofH4480 the priestsH3548 thatH834 were in AnathothH6068 in the landH776 of Benjamin:H1144 Jer 1:2 To whomH834 the word H1697 of the LORD H3068 cameH1961 in the daysH3117 of JosiahH2977 the sonH1121 of AmonH526 kingH4428 of Judah,H3063 in the thirteenthH7969 H6240 yearH8141 of his reign.H4427 Brenton’s Eng Sept. Jer 1:1 The word of God which came to Jeremias the son of Chelcias, of the priests, who dwelt in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin: Jer 1:2 accordingly as the word of God came to him in the days of Josias son of Amos king of Juda, in the thirteenth year of his reign. Greek OT Sept. Jer 1:1 τοG3588 T-NSN ρημαG4487 N-NSN τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM οG3739 R-NSN εγενετοG1096 V-AMI-3S επιG1909 PREP ιερεμιανG2408 N-ASM τονG3588 T-ASM τουG3588 R-GSM χελκιουN-GSM εκG1537 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPM ιερεωνG2409 N-GPM οςG3739 R-NSM κατωκειV-IAI-3S ενG1722 PREP αναθωθN-PRI ενG1722 PREP γηG1065 N-DSF βενιαμινG958 N-PRI Jer 1:2 οςG3739 R-NSM εγενηθηG1096 V-API-3S λογοςG3056 N-NSM τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM προςG4314 PREP αυτονG846 D-ASM ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF ημεραιςG2250 N-DPF ιωσιαN-PRI υιουG5207 N-GSM αμωςG301 N-PRI βασιλεωςG935 N-GSM ιουδαG2448 N-PRI ετουςG2094 N-GSN τρισκαιδεκατουA-GSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF βασιλειαG932 N-DSF αυτουG846 D-GSM G4487 ῥῆμα rhēma hray'-mah From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word. Total KJV occurrences: 70 G3056 λόγος logos log'-os From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work. Total KJV occurrences: 330
The Trinity is basically the point where churchianity joined partners with God - the only unforgivable sin. Why is it not possible to view that the mission of Christ began when God caused the Holy Spirit to descend to Jesus? God is the Most Great Spirit, if you will. He sends the Holy Spirit into someone like Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, causing them to be a man possessed of divine knowledge and will. This is a fully workable model that reconciles all of the necessary requirements of the stations of each of them, but also does not create any of the great inconsistencies that plague such a byzantine dogma. It also honours Occams Razor. Sadly, the early church architects imagined and insisted upon exclusivity so that this religion would appear superior to all others, and thereby ensure their continued ascendency, power, and control.
I grew up pentecostal and and every once in a while you run into non-trinitarian pentecostals. Usually they believe some form of Modalism like the Oneness or Apostolic Pentecostal churches. You'll even hear the modalist explanation of God from ppl who think they believe in the trinity haha. I wonder historically where this came from. I didn't realize it myself until I took adult initiation classes at a Catholic church. That was the honestly the first time I heard the phrasing that God is 3 persons sharing 1 nature/essence/ being.
My experience was fairly short lived among the Pentecostals .The preacher had the gift of receiving direct messages from "god" in tongues and his wife had the gift of translation of those tongues. So that was the part of the service god himself thanked us for making the car payment, the house payment for the preacher and his wife and the new church bus we were chipping in for. That's the way it went every Sunday and you know what? God even told us about emergency funding crises that our dear preacher had. As I said, short lived experienced.
@@gazzas123 Agreed. As they are defined and by the behavior of their followers and lack of care for them or even telling it's followers they must not lie.. oh wait, they did and they do and nothing happens. Well, until you get to the river Styx which no one can see until their dead proves what you say is true. I remember this comedian who would show up on Saturday Night Live in the 80's I think. His name was Father Guido Sarducci and he had a bit in his set and he thought that we should (just for fun) take all of the Bob's Big Boy statues and spread them around the countryside or put them on an island. That way when civilization arose once more crawling out of the ashes after another cataclysm they would think the statues were ancient god's and the people would worship them. lol.
Ever wondered how the borrowed Trinity concept got a 'Christian' title? Here is Paul's prophecy. (Acts 20:30) and from AMONG YOU yourselves men will rise and SPEAK TWISTED THINGS to draw away the disciples after themselves. Ponder over it.
@@tongakhan230 Good catch. I've been telling the faithful who show up wanting to tell me the good news that they are that generation the bible speaks of the great turning away who have become lovers of themselves and worship the beast. They get up and leave. Works every time perfectly Lol.
This should be renamed "The Most Distracting Glasses Every Designed with Bart Ehrman."
Cute! No¿
haha you nailed it
@@singingsavage3056no he almost nailed it, he misspelled ever
Yeah, I had a very challenging time when I'd look at her. All I see is a large horizontal S.. I have a very hard time looking at people's faces when they have a lot of tattoos or animal piercings. I have to look away when talking to them. This was the same thing.
@@biblebadcopycatofcuneiform8210
A large vertical S? The S looks horizontal to me.
Megan's glasses are messing with my brain today. I love them, but could never wear a frame like that without going cross-eyed, lol.
And this is what her likes are intending to do, IMO, which is why I had recommended under earlier episodes to look away from the screen to avoid seizures.
@@TheSoteriologist I dunno about all that
@@DJMarcO138 Bezmenov 84 _“Demoralisation“_ and _“destabilization“_
Yeah, the whole "half of infinity" thing is messing with my head. Sort of like the concept of the Trinity.
The glasses are like when you see a picture hanging crooked on a wall. You naturally want to reach out and adjust it. But you can't!!!!
When you make up stories as you go along, you sometimes have to stretch to reconcile them.
I'm a graduate of Anglican Seminary. Bart's lectures send me back in time. The difference? I stay awake during these videos!
Thanks. That made me laugh.
@@kencreten7308 What there to understand? Nothing, nonsense.
OMG. She needs new glass frames. Can't watch or even listen to this. It seems she is as peculiar as her eyeglasses. Lululooney.
Anglican? Oh dear.
@@bayreuth79 no division in Christ please
The trinity isn’t mysterious. It’s just nonsense. There is a difference.
Amen
Not really since everything we create today is also triune. Take a software program for instance. There is an interface (which is both human and machine) that interacts with the human being inputting data. This then manipulates the second part of the trinity, the database, and behind all of this, we have the program language itself. The third part of the trinity.
The software program acts on the database, but is not part of it. In an analogous fashion, God casts fire and brimstone upon the sinners, but they are not part of him. Jesus cried "father, why have you forsaken me?" He and the father obviously were not one at that point. @@matthewmeyer347
@@matthewmeyer347 yes they are 3 different things so there are 3 different gods
@@micimaco9509 It's literally one program
I love the point about Tertullian and how his writings came to be persevered because they just happened to fall in line with future consensus regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. Really makes you wonder what we lost to history from opposing viewpoints.
I like listening to him. He proves religion is nothing but men sitting on a panel discussion creating a religion for the gullible
@@monnieeeeyt7037 I don't really think Bart would agree that that is what religion is...
Yes, Tertullian is a preternatural genius. His Adversus Praxean is a short text bristling with so much of the later technical terminology but with a somewhat different sense (clarified in 1966 in the four volume study, La théologie trinitaire de Tertullian by Joseph Moingt SJ - who died a few years ago, still churning out massive books at age 104). He was also a brilliant writer, stylist, etc.
Tertullian was not "in line" with what came to be the orthodox view on the divinity of Christ. Tertullian used the metaphor of sunlight streaming through a window to explain the relationship between the father and the son. He said that just as one will refer to a sunbeam on the wall as "the sun" while knowing that the sun itself is a separate, burning body in the sky, so too one may refer to Jesus as "God", knowing that God, Himself, is a separate and distinct Being who only shines through Christ.
That's why I find it amusing when Christians dismiss certain ideas as heresies. Heresies are just the theories that had less powerful supporters who lost the historical debate. Which is why there are so many Christian denominations, and many of them disagree completely with all the others.
Interesting how divine doctrine was made by human consensus.
Well... uh.. you know, like ... uh, God was ... uh, what's the word, right, guiding people and stuff! heh Except for all those copying mistakes and editing over time.
Wow, very true.
And that too with a pagan directing affairs. Compare Acts 20:30.
@@tongakhan230 That’s also pretty much the case with the literature of the Bible.
@@thewb8329: The books included in the Bible were all complied with God's direction.
That is why the Bible has been translated into over 3,000 languages.
No other book has even reached the 100 translation mark.
The Bible has survived despite attempts to have it destroyed.
It must surely be of value to any TRUTH seeker.
The fact that according to Christian doctrine Jesus prayed to himself & begged himself to spare himself before he was crucified because it was his will that he be gruesomely murdered is just mind-blowing. 🥴
You can't bring that up. Their answer will always be "You don't understand". Which of course can be translated as "I don't understand, and so can't explain it to you either"
@@ji8044 Blessed are those who aren't brain-raped by the aggressively religious...
Not Christian doctrine. But church doctrines.
No Christian will worship their leader Jesus. That is why they are Jesus' DISCIPLES.
@@tongakhan230 Whether you like it or not, most people on this planet who call themselves Christians think that Jesus is God, not merely a leader, & they worship him.
@@joejohnson6327 : Please read Jesus' words to the MANY so-called Christians before he does away with them (Matthew 7:23).
Christians are DISCIPLES of Jesus. Not his worshipers.
(John 13:35) By this all will know that you are MY DISCIPLES-if you have love among yourselves.”
Love Megan's questions. Simple, direct, and to the point. Very well organized.
Her glasses are less simple and direct
@friarslantern I absolutely love her glasses game 😉
I just want to say how much I appreciate and love these podcasts. You guys are great together. (And Megan's glasses are nuts, but swimming lessons followed by day care and then teaching Sumarian is so cool, random sartorial excess doesn't matter.)
The glasses really bothered me for some reason...lol.
@@samflynn3670Attention - getting? I love the glasses and delighted not to see strangely-colored hair.
@@samflynn3670 Well they are tad peculiar but whats life without a little eccentricity.
The glasses keep me feeling that either I'm cross-eyed or Megan is.
So... basically they couldn't figure out any way to resolve the obvious inconsistencies that had piled up in the doctrine, and threw up their hands and said "it's a divine mystery"?
😂😂 basically
Same with science. Just look at quantum physics.
@@TullipPetal Ummm. No? Science works hard to find consistent explanations; it doesn't just say "it's a mystery!" and stop there.
Search Eli Soriano's doctrines. There is no mystery in there.Eli Soriano explained better.
@@MarioCabradilla well yeah :) He doesn't believe in the Trinity, so he has it easy; he just considers the three to be different entities (depending on exactly which of his statements you read). But the Catholics can't use that method. :)
The easiest way to explain Trinity is on the background of the Roman imperial cult where the dead Caesars was the fathers in the sky, the son being the word being the ruling emperor and the spirit being the genius of Rome which the emperor was supposed to be the incarnation of.
Very interesting. Is there a book about this?
More confusing
The op worded it a little strange but essentially it's true, but even they got the concept from the Northern pagan tribes. @@mohdmubarakabrazak9055
@@DEPoole-me3mfyeah, basically any garbage pro trinitarian apologetic book ever written.
I wrote an essay about the Trinity when I was in high school, I used Bart as one of my main sources and I ended up getting an A. The course was called 'Religion - Specialization'. Thanks Bart!
In high school? Never knew people took theology in high school, very cool though! Congrats on the A!
In Sweden we have 'specialization' courses in virtually all subjects, including religion. In those courses its all about producing a scientific research on chosen topics.@@harharharharharharharharha240
Doesn't sound factual. Sorry! What can anyone write about the Trinity.
It had to be a question. 'Is the Trinity scriptural or not'.
@@tongakhan230 You're wrong, though.
*True Jesus is in Islam*
* *Jews/Judaism rejects Jesus* as a prophet/God's messenger.
* *Christians believe that* Jesus was God incarnate and died as a sacrifice to redeem humans' sin.
* *Islam confirms who Jesus really was.* Jesus/Isa was sent by God to Israelites to teach monotheism & enforce God's law. (Quran 61:6, 4: 157-158, 5:72, 5:116-118, 19:21,32, , etc)
In the Gospel, *Jesus himself said he came/was sent only to Israelites.* He told Jews to worship God only and to teach Torah (of course to practice its law as well). (John 17:3, Matthew 5: 17-19, 10:6, 15:24, etc).
Some important laws in the Torah & OT:
* *God in Torah/OT is not human,* not born from a woman's womb, invisible, and will never die. (Genesis, Hosea, etc).
* *God in the Torah/OT strongly prohibits human sacrifice,* since it was pagan and witch practice (Leviticus, Jeremiah, etc).
The true Jesus is in Islam. So, *find out more about true Islam* from credible sources.
I think the Trinity is a prime example of design-by-committee 😉
indeed. and a man made concept. Tertullian actually didn't believe in the Trinity the same way it is described at the Nicene creed.
Not in the way Bart describes it. The Trinity is not an amalgamation or mish-mash of opposing or just different views. The committees merely chose the Trinity notion over competing views; they didn’t create it.
😂
@@jeffryphillipsburns
they "mereIy ch0se" it 0ver reaIity and truth
b0II0x is b0II0x
The concept of the Trinity existed long before the councils canonized it into official doctrine.
Thanks, Megan and Bart for a good video. Your contributions to the debates concerning Christianity are always enlightening. We would have been much poorer - spiritually and intellectually without it.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Actually reading the Bible for what it says and what’s written is why I rejected the Trinity
1 John 5:5-9 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
@@jerkojerkic9349 Which proves my point
@@jerkojerkic9349You are aware 1 John 5:7 is a later addition, right? It isn't in any of the oldest manuscripts that we have.
@@jerkojerkic9349 Who was filling the role as "the word" because that was Jesus previously.?
@@dazzadizzy5308 The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
Great lesson. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Megan- that is probably the coolest looking pair of glasses I’ve ever seen.
I love the intro because it’s like” the only show where Bart Ehrman does Bart Ehrman things” but it doesn’t sound like that if you don’t think about it too much
There are serious logical and scriptural problems with the doctrine of the Trinity, but merely suggesting that it ought to be reconsidered is tantamount to blasphemy in most Christian circles. A couple of church councils met a long time ago and decided the matter, and, apparently, no one is allowed to question their assessment.
@@ObjectiveEthics You know... some other people said religion is about money. Now you're saying it's about control. I'm an atheist. I say religion is very complicated. If people come to something as simple as "control" or, "money." That definition is for their ease thought, perhaps, not for the sake of truth. Because the truth is far more complicated. That being said, I think no one likes to have their beliefs questions whether they firmly believe that BMW cars are the best, or belonging to a particular political group because they are - right, or believing in various Christian ideas.
The I have a problem with, Jesus being God,,😢 the Bible says he received immortality 😮 1st Timothy 6 verse 16 if Jesus is internal,, or not created, no beginning or no end, is that a bonus receiving immortality?, doesn't make sense, that's what I would have brought up at the, meaning of bishops, Revelation 1 verse 18 I was alive I was dead and behold I live into the ages of ages,,,, so he receives it after he died immortality a New Creation,,, we will be like Jesus, I would be hanged for saying that? We will be like Jesus and receive and put on immortality 1st Corinthians 15 verses 53 must read: so one of the internal or un created divine or the 3God head's, Jesus received immortality, the word means you have to be mortal to receive immortality if I was there, I would have mentioned that and 1st Corinthians 8 verse 5 & 6 many gods, many lords/ 6 to us (true Christian's) one God the father, one Lord Jesus, too easy to understand,,, your critic ❓🤔🧐
Robert,
Well said!!
@@greglogan7706 Robert I don't know if you're talking about my comments,? Straight to the point, 👉 Jesus died for us 🙏 a lot of people don't even know what die for us? Amazing,,, did Jesus ,his soul died for us, his body or flash? Or his spirit? One of them, two of them 🤔 or all of them 🤔❓ your critic ❓🤔🧐
Guys, HERE is The Savior
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
Truly enjoyable conversation, thank you.
I really like the enthusiasm Bart brings to his talks. He is a wonderful communicator. What I like about him most is he doesnt appear to have an agenda. He is a truth seeker. Megan is a perfect host too. Im reading MacDairmaid's book again and the historical and personal background that Bart provides fills in some gaps and makes it a whole lot more interesting. Bart explains the Arian heresy in much greater detail than I have seen before. I also delight in the way he eviscerates Brown. Calling Brown out for the liar he is.
Trump brings plenty of enthusiasm to his telling of LIES also!
@@donaldcarpenter5328 what does that even mean? I live in Australia
@@donaldcarpenter5328 , If you can't bring anything useful to the conversation, please don't comment!
@@zapkvr it means that Ehrman's claim that the Trinity appears only once in the Bible, that too in the NT is false. It appears also in the OT
Every time I see Dr. Bart’s new video, it reminds me of a new toy my father would bring me when I was little.
Somehow I have the same feeling
Great episode. I could never believe in the Trinity based on logic which troubled me when I was a believer. Dr. Ehrman actually reinforced my lack of belief. Megan's Eyewear is "the bomb" (good).
Bart and Megan explain the "mysteries" about Christianity in a coherent and logical fashion. As they turn out, religion is man-made and subject to the whims and guiles of their perpetrators who are masters in the art of mass psychology. Really, the paradigm is applicable to politics, economics, and all matters that concern humanity. Thank you, Bart and Megan, for such enlightening videos!
Idk dude.. YHWH gave Moses the Law. Unless you don't believe Moses or YHWH. Don't piss of YHWH
@@bubbag8895Ummm the word of god is unutterable dude… paradox
Christianity is man made
@@bubbag8895 The name YAHWEH is not mentioned in the New Testament at all
You go from Christianity to every religion which is made up by humans. Generalization is a weakness of your claim.
The glasses are wild this time. I think I like them but they are challenging me.
Keep up the good work
" My Father is greater than I "
"I and the Father are one"
@@jayseth Have a look at John 20:17
Read Philippians ch. 2 in the New Testament and see why the Lord Jesus, though God and co equal with God, could still say, My Father is greater than I.
@@jayseth Jesus also says we and him are 1 doesn't make us God. Neither does it make him GOD.
We are to be one with Jesus as he is one with the Father... One in purpose, one in Righteousness
Megan, you are an outstanding host. Keep it coming!
Great episode!
I always love seeing Megan's different looks, but those glasses are making me dizzy! 😸
"Where did the Trinity come from?" = From the Imagination of a Human.
An imagination inspired and sponsored by the adversary?
I certainly think so.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian.
Where in what you expressed is there a text of scripture?
Sounds like you hold to your own personal phantasm.@@jamesmanm3623
@@jamesmanm3623 -- My god didn't need a weak A## "trinitarian", so =
My god >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your trini god
Praise be the Magic Toe Nail.
I will Pray for you.
From humans that think they know more than GOD.YAHWEH SAYS NOT TO BE DECEIVED
68 years of Christian education and only now do I have the basic 411 in this topic. Thanks Bart.
Thanks so much for this content Megan and Bart. I'm hooked!!
A pint with friends is preferred.
Thank you for these wonderful and informative shows! Megan, thank you for assembling these with Bart and for sharing about your translating! Also: those glasses are awesome.
Amen re: the glasses!!!
Jesus said he that sent me is greater than I
Jesus is talking about his flesh, his human nature.
Colossians 1:15 says specifically Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.
@@douglasboyd8475who is greater than him?
Human nature of Christ speaking.
As a human he hungered. He prayed. He was tempted. As God in the flesh, he calmed storms with a word. As God He walked on water. As God, He healed every disease, He raised the dead, He turned a lunch into a Buffett. He turned water into wine. He opened blinded eyes.
Revelation 1:8 it says that he is the Almighty…. That means Yahweh. The God of the universe.
@@douglasboyd8475 who made Jesus performing miracle??
@@KhabibTime-cb4ym
His Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9,10
Galatians 4:6
Philippians 1:19
1 Peter 1:10,11
2 Corinthians 3:17
All of those verses say that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ. That’s why when the Holy Spirit is inside you the Bible says that Jesus is inside you.
Christ IN YOU the hope of glory.
Anyone that has the spirit inside them has Christ on the inside of them.
It’s how you love the way that he does. It’s how you treat people the way that he does. It’s how you have compassion on people the way that he does.
How can one with a logical mind accept the trinity as true? Honestly I will never be able to fathom that.
One accepts it not with a logical mind, but by faith.
@@oliverbrownlow5615 the same can be said to support any fallacy. You have to put the bar somewhere
@@oliverbrownlow5615 ...faith in what ?? Because some pope said so ?? No way, the Bible clearly shows that the trinity is nonsense. I put my faith in the written word not what some confused people voted on.Truth is not up to a vote, either it is or is'nt...
The same could be said for quantum physics. Although quantum physics has the benefit of empirical evidence.
Consider the particle/wave duality of light
Thank you for telling us the truth.
What you see here is an opinion of one skeptic Bible scholar. It actually stands in a minority amongst Bible scholars! So it's not the truth but an opinion!
@@Bullcutter*skeptic
@@Bullcuttermost bible scholars are christians who have to sign a statement of faith at their institutions. So I'll take a skeptic's opinion any day over that.
@@Bullcutteractually Dr Erhman's opinions normally represent the majority of Bible "scholars." Most people who've been to mainline seminaries like to feed their kids too much to reveal the common understanding they were taught and loose their job. Real Bible scholarship "don't preach." Preventing the loss of faith due to an understanding of the real text is a real problem for conservatives.
If that were so, no publisher worth their salt will publish them! But we have numerous Bible scholars with their work published by top universities! Dr. Ehrmans studied under the late Professor Bruce Metzger, a world-renowned Bible scholar of Greek New Testament. He wouldn't agree with Dr. Ehrman's theology! Nor will Dr Don Carson, another eminent Bible scholar. Dr. Ehrman stands alone in refutation of major tenants of Christianity!
Those glasses are amazing! And Megan's glasses are nice too.😊❤❤
👏🙂
Very interesting.
Great video.
Somehow, I had always compared the trinity to a user interface for a video game; the father in the divine realm is the user, the son was the modeled avatar/player character who interacts with the inhabitants of the world, the holy spirit was the in-game console that the user can use to debug the game or break the physics engine lmao
Not saying that my system of comparison was better or worse than others, but that's how I made sense of it as a kid
Could be more than a strange metaphor... if we are indeed living in a simulation. 😮
Thanks, there was a shortage of bad Trinity analogies out there.
😂 but how are those three things equal? And how do they have the same use/power/abilities?
The three you've gave are completely different with different abilities which goes agaisnt the trinity that teaches that all the persons in the godhead are EQUAL IN ABILITY. (Meaning, what one can do, the other can too)
It is true that God could make a rock so big he could not lift it, but he could lift it. Trinity doesn’t need to be logical it’s just how god reveiled himself to us
Equal in ability? It's the same being, but different functions @@TheKingofdans
If we are made in the image of God, and God is three person's, where are your other two persons?
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
@@todddavis8355 the egg theory
@@todddavis8355 Body, soul, spirit - omnes Gallia in tres partes divisa est.
Simply put, this doctrine required over three centuries to become fully developed, not becoming orthodox until the Council of Constantinople in 360 CE when the ομοουσιον (same essence) position was officially ratified, and the competing ετεροουσιον (different essence) was officially anathematized.
381 AD.
The satanic lie took some time to develop.
@@toreyhorton1789 Yes. It was plagiarized from Greek philosophers
gabrieI eddy
yes indeed, its an iIIustrati0n 0f h0w they made it up as they went aI0ng and created grand reIigi0us c0unciIs and grand new w0rds t0 f0rmaIise and Iegitimize their idi0cy
n0 number 0f reIigi0us c0unciIs 0r ratificati0ns 0f 0rth0d0xy wiII make the st0ry m0re credibIe
especiaIIy when y0u read the bibIe
it has zer0 credibiIity
Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever.
No surprise that the apostate church had the name Roman in it.
To the question of different sources for the same author, and scholars debating them: I was in a church choir for some time, and beside many other pieces, we have sung Johann Sebastian Bach's St Matthew Passion and St John Passion. Johann Sebastian Bach wrote his music after the printing press was invented. And still, every time we got to the music sheets, our cantor gave us some small corrections to the music, because even the manuscripts of Johann Sebastian Bach of his own music differ, and there are debates if something is actually a speck of dirt on the manuscript or a correction, and if it's by his own hands or someone else's. Again and again, other copies of his works are found, and they carry some corrections, but not others, and there is a huge body of scholarly work tracking down the time line of Johann Sebastian Bach's own corrections to his own music.
Besides this being the coolest RUclips channel, it's also the home of the coolest eyeglass frames.
It made no sense in Sunday School and it makes no sense now.
They rarely support their assertions with Scripture. The have pre-conceived interpretation of Scripture common to theologians.
They don't consider:
Who said what?
Deuteronomy 18:18
18”I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.”
John 12:49
49”For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and how I should speak.”
You are so cool ! I love all of your eye glasses and all the colors you implement, you are a joy! Professor I love your host and I love this program and I’m so grateful.
This episode gave me a basic and satisfying answer for how the Orthodoxy was formed. Now I’m dying to know where Catholicism came from!
"Her flight back to New York booked, Jennifer had seven days to pull the final script together and send it off. But they were still three scripts, at least: The Screenwriter, The Architect, and The Gate. Was it a trilogy? A triptych? A Trinity? A Trimurti? Were they each manifestations of the same thing?" - from 'Frame 39', a novel, by Rick Shands
I always thought it was a philosophical trick: 'we worship only one God', but 'we worship God AND Jesus' so they needed a way out. And invented the Trinity. I've often thought that the beginning of worshipping Jesus would be when the Jewish Christians split off, since that would be unacceptable to people who say the Sh'ma every day.
Thank you! Please continue with your work.
I liked this. Excellent recap. There is a two-dimensional diagram for the Trinity used in England illustrating Bishop Alexander's assertions. Good to hear Bart is in Wimbledon for dinner with bloggers.
lol
Bart, I love your inquiring mind and thank you for attempting to honestly answer some of the most troubling questions 'believers' and 'nonbelievers' continuously ask. Perhaps it would be helpful for your audiences if you explored and commented on the psychology of the belief phenomenon itself AND the various philosophies of the numerous, different religions being professed TODAY. I realize this will require a countless number of interviews, but I am fascinated by the forever changing eyewear and hair color choices by that brilliant and beautiful young lady challenging you with thought-provoking questions.😇
Psychology and Western Religion has about 100 pages on the trinity. I came to this podcast out of an interest in the psychology of religion.
Great gardening tip. Always plant things in threes or another ODD grouping!
Another excellent podcast. I would be interested in a podcast on when and how the Pope became infallible.
He's only considered infallible when issuing Papal Bulls.
It has been ___[Blank]___ days since last papal error. 😂😂😂
@@kidslovesatan34-- and yet the pope won't spare the bulls from Spanish bullfighting. 🤔
And John Hamer (centreplace) is streaming a lecture on trinity in a few hours. Good Times.
Thanks for a very interesting and informative conversation
I have a question for Dr Ehrman. A common practice among Christians is to pray asking God for very specific interventions that are personally meaningful here on Earth, such as protection for loved ones, or for certain individuals to win elections, or to obtain certain financial/material goals, etc. I'm not sure this practice is entirely biblical in origin? I'm guessing there may be other practices and beliefs among Christians that are commonly thought to be from the Bible, but arguably are not? Perhaps this would make for an interesting subject of your podcast? Thanks for considering this idea. 🙂
Characters from the Bible prayed for all kinds of very specific crap all the time. Duh.
It is a strange practice if you believe in an omniscient and Omni-benevolent God. That sort of God wouldn’t need you to petition him. He would already know and care and would have have already done He thought best, which would necessarily HAVE been best. Of course there was a very long tradition of attempting to appease the gods and offering sacrifices for the gods. This long tradition long predates Christianity. Christianity mindlessly continues the tradition without worrying about the inevitable contradictions.
@jeffryphillipsburns the most common explanation I've heard is that God knows what you want, but also wants you to ask for it as a means of maintaining a relationship. Kind of like parents with toddlers who tell them to ask for what they want, despite it sometimes being obvious to the parents (except that parents do this to teach socially expected bevahiour instead of build relationship)
Praying makes a lot of people feel better about being out of control. When there is absolutely nothing which you can do to affect an outcome, you can still occupy yourself with wasting your breath directing wishes to imaginary friends.
Jesus gave his disciples apriority listing on what to pray for. Please read Matthew 6:9-13.
Check it out.
BTW these worldly scholars cannot explain what the Bible teaches. God veils the truth from such ones. cf Matthew 11:25,26.
It took about three hundred years to come up with a religion the Emperor could accept.
I really like Dr Bart.. it is so fun listening to you guys..
I was raised in this, always had doubts. I can't make myself believe in the trinity.
Ask any JW. Many of them too were brought up to believe the Trinity. Why did they change? John 8:32 has the answer.
@carolynsilvers9999 - Of course you can't "make yourself believe in the Trinity", God must REVEAL IT TO YOU BY HIS SPIRIT, JUST LIKE HE REVEALS "Salvation" & EVERYTHING ELSE that pertains to God.
@@jimjuri6490 Another "Cherry Picked" scripture while you OMIT verse 31 which is the KEY and says, ..."If you CONTINUE IN MY WORD..", something you OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT DONE, which is why you DO NOT KNOW THE TRUTH, (v.32), to come up with so many LIES that are not even in the WORD, like Jesus is the Arc Ange Michael !! Wake Up !!
@@menmustchangebeforekingdoms : If Jesus is not an angel why is he compared to angels? Can God be compared to angels?
@@jimjuri6490 Jesus is NOT an Angel, you know it, your JW 'deceivers" know it, I know it, & God knows it, because it is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE WORD.
So much history condensed in the series.... I love it!
My favorite part is when I hear tidbits about when stuff was added or taken away from the Bible...like that verse in 1st John.
I wish Bart would do a short series like.... Super condensed... On important passages in the Bible that were added or deleted on purpose to make a theological point.... And the time period it is historically believed to be added.
The one that blew my mind was a lot of the original books of Luke didn't have the first portion that included jesus's infancy narrative...
That and the story of the adulterous woman in John, that was added much later.
That would be a good talk.
I don't think anything was taken away in the case of Luke's gospel regarding Jesus's infancy. Luke states his purpose at the beginning of his text, which was to gather and then order eyewitness accounts of Christ. He wrote the narrative to Theophilus, this, to assure him that what he had learned of Christ was true.
_"Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, _*_just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also,_*_ having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed."_
The point here is that Luke's motive was not to account for everything that occurred in Christ's life, but only what he himself could corroborate from eyewitnesses. Matthew's gospel is widely considered to have come at least a decade prior to Luke's. And yet it includes the narrative of The Holy Family's journey to Egypt, which is missing in Luke's gospel. So why would anyone use Luke's account to suggest that the Egypt journey never occurred? Luke seemed focused upon eyewitness accounts. So it could be that he did not record the Egyptian journey because he could not find anyone who was yet alive and who had witnessed such a remote and undoubtedly private experience.
As for 1 John 5:7-8, the verses were not inserted into "The Bible." They were inserted only in _The Textus Receptus,_ which was compiled by Erasmus, and later used by translations such as the KJV. But it was Erasmus himself who told us that the verses should be held in suspicion. We have known about them from their beginning. However, the fact that they were added does not mean that the doctrine of The Trinity is unbiblical or was made up out of whole cloth. As Erhman says here, the rest of the Bible declares that God is One, that Jesus is God, that The Holy Spirit is God, and that The Father is God. And in Matthew 3:16-17 the Bible shows all three of these Persons being present and active simultaneously:
_"As soon as Jesus (Person #2) was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (Person #3) descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven (Person #1) said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'”_
There was only one solution to this, and Modalism was not it. Christians had accepted that The Father, the Son, and the Spirit were each God even before Nicea. But they had no formal doctrine to harmonize the belief. The ecumenical meetings merely formalized what the church generally believed. That is why there was no contest between the various points of view in these meetings. Trinitarianism had always existed between the texts. They simply formalized it, chiefly because heretics were trying to introduce doctrines that were contrary to the texts.
This aligns with my beliefs as a Mormon that the Godhead is 3 separate beings unified in their mission to save mankind
Hmm, as for scribal text changes, I remember some pointed remarks about a German translation of an English sf story - I think an A. E. van Voigt one - where, for whatever reason, the translator added an excessively brutal extra scene that doesn't really fit with the rest of the text. I think I have that book somewhere, but I probably cannot find it with reasonable effort. Even figuring that out must have an interesting story behind it.
"The Father, Son,....and that other guy."
That's kind of how it was presented to us.
and the uncle?
And every Christian I've ever met actually worships the unholy trinity Satan Lucifer and the unholy spirit. Just like their Bible says they would. Intelligence is under rated by the religious.
The Bible is very clear about these matters. No one has read religious texts for themselves in centuries it seems.
The pigeon.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
Thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking discourse on the Trinity.
When dealing with the Trinity a close friend would comment that "he had no problem with the Trinity, he just didn't understand it"
I am a little disappointed that Bart omits mentioning the influence that Neo-Platonic philosophy had on early Christian theologians (indeed the influence that it had on all of the Abrahamic religions.
I would go as far as to suggest that until you study the work of Plotinus you will never come close to understanding the concept of the Trinity.
I would argue Jesus didn’t equate the Holy Spirit with himself… he himself said when he goes to heaven he will send the holy spirt, there is clear separation
I'm not a believer, but... Casper the Ghost comes to my mind.
@@kencreten7308 I used to buy Casper comic books as a child, but I don’t see the connection. Did Casper divide into sub-entities, and I’m just forgetting?
I've always thought of the Holy Spirit as our conscious to do good things not bad.When we fail to do good we feel bad and then correct it. ❤
@@brucecoleman1509 I love that sentiment, I only wish it was that easy… but you get into spirit of God vs Holy Spirit talk, did the Holy Spirit even exist before Jesus said he would send it, and so on… but that is not a bad thought
@Thoughtpologetics It's a mystery ain't it.Peace Brother
Some childish questions I’ve always had - (1) Do all members of the Trinity know about each other. (2). Do they talk to each other? Probably not since this would be more like taking to one’s self. (3) Do they always agree? I just have always found the Trinity to be confusing.
The Trinity is really confusing because it is a Miracle. How could Jesus be born from a Virgin mother? Where did half of his chromosomes come from? How could Jesus rise from the dead, when reverse entropy is against the laws of Thermodynamics? How could you cram all pairs of all animals in an Ark and survive the Great Flood? How could Moses possibly part the Red Sea using just his walking stick?
All miracles are confusing. You cannot accept and believe 1 miracle, and reject the other miracles.
I think of it as Vishnu (Father), Krishna (“Son” who is actually the earthly avatar of the Father) , and Shakti (Spirit, which is the energetic, more feminine form of the Father). In the Bible, Jesus talks to/prays to God a lot. I don’t know how Christians reconcile that, if they eWorld accept that it would need to be reconciled.
@wotchermystic2335
You cannot attempt to reconcile how Jesus prays to God a lot, and yet Jesus and God are one and the same.
Otherwise, you would also need to reconcile how Noah was able to cram a pair of all animals on Earth in his Ark, or why God had to put the Forbidden Tree near Adam & Eve. God could have built an impenetrable fence around it.
hi,do u read quran,peace
Yes, the three members of the Trinity know about each other, with perfect knowledge. They commune with one another, which is their life in eternity. They share the one divine intellect and will, therefore they always agree.
Megan always has the coolest glasses😂😎
Good to see a symbol from Taoism incorporated into this podcast through Megan's Yin-Yang glasses...
Yin-yang is 1 circle, not 2, that's more like infinity...
Starts 3:07.
thanks!
The best explanation I've heard is take a block of ice ( god the father ), heat it, it becomes liquid ( god the son ), heat it further it becomes vapour( God the holy spirit ).
Cool it, it transitions from vapour to liquid to ice. Three modes of god.
I like it. But wait, so when Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth, god the father no longer existed? God the father had metaphorically melted away, right? And today, now that we've got the holy spirit, Jesus has evaporated? Perhaps we live at the Triple Point of water/god (look it up). It's all nonsense! It has NO logical foundation. It is early church spin to claim Jewish monotheistic purity and thus avoid being accused of polytheism like all those 'pagans' but at the same time deify their hero the way the Romans did all the time. You believe what you want but just know that if you 'explain' it, you don't actually know what you've signed up for. There's a reason deep-thinking, totally committed, hardcore Christians like Wycliffe & Newton rejected it outright as a man-made confection.
It's interesting to note that while evangelical Christians will immediately count as unalterably "saved" from hell any person who simply recites their Sinner's Prayer, those same evangelical Christians will condemn to hell any professing Christian who does not recognize the doctrine of the Triune God. A problematic position to say the least.
I question whether most Christians truly believe in the orthodox trinity. I dont see a way to make a cogent argument that Jesus was anything but subordinate ro God. Then there is the holy spirit which is something else altogether. When ive talked to people about the trinity casually, pretty much everyone seems to actually think more in terms of tritheism rather than the one god-three parts.
Seems most likely that the trinity was invented ro be able to claim Christianity is monotheist in order to preserve a connection with Judaism for legitimacy purposes.
Why couldn't God have a son? The son would have the characteristics of the father. Difficult to tell the difference between the Holy Spirit, and Grace. seem like their function is the same.
It the only way a monotheistic God can be living, personal, relational, good and loving.
I'm no scholar but..did not God say I am One..there is no other before me
Isaiah 44:6 says, "Beside me there is no God." Isaiah was referring to idols and images that belonged to the nations and how they were not gods at all. But that does not mean that other gods do not exist in a strict sense. In John 10:34, Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 where human judges are referred to as "gods". Those judges were gods in the sense of being representatives or spokesmen for God. Also, in Exodus 4:16, Moses was told that he would serve as "God" to Aaron and to Pharaoh. And in John 1:1, Jesus is referred to as “theos” without the definite article, meaning that he is "divine", "a god", but he is different from “theos” with the definite article also mentioned in John 1:1, which refers to Almighty God. So other “gods” exist but there is only one Almighty God.
Bart neglected to mention that modalism involves the notion that God only appears to us in 3 different modes. Augustine in his De Trinitate also believed that God is one in three modes- but he thought that those modes were ad intra. The immanent trinity is the economic trinity. The son is the image of the father and the spirit is the love of that self-reflected image. One God the father in three modalities.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
@@jamesmanm3623 i love going into youtube comments and seeing idiots talk as if they are the best philosopher to ever walk this earth lmao
@@rhythmvij7525 please , be charitable to educate someone like myself, for according to Socrates "piety is to educate one's fellow citizens"
So glad to be oneness! There is no trinity! God is one!
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
@jamesmanm3623 human philosophy, not scripture.
Zechariah 14
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
That's describing the millenial reign. That's God revealed in Jesus Christ as the one true God.
One God. One name!
Thank you both for a brilliant show. The Trinity has such strange origins. My sense is that the early Church didn't just come up with profound theology for the fun of it. There was some need that fueled the creation of the Trinity - I'm combining through the Church fathers trying to figure this out. 😊🙏🏽
@@CharlieBravo887
Exactly - in conjunction with the notion of one God - that is the history - and that is the truth - and that is why the evangelical brain is mush - and they worship an adulterer - and Trump won the 2020 election....
Once you go down the path of brain-mush and self-deception....
They needed to paper over a lot of problems, and they thought that a mystery was a better solution than the problems laid bare.
Did you not watch this video? Bart explained in great detail why they needed to come up with the concept of the Trinity.
@@joejohnson6327 Yeah. It wasn't really to prove Jesus was God. They'd already decided on that in the first decades. They were just trying to figure out what that meant.
"In the beginning was the word". It's only low iq religious people who think this means Jesus is a Bible and God invented the Bible before he invented people to write the Bible. Weird interpretation of something very straight forward.
The Bible is VERY clear that God is a wave maker. That the holy spirit is a Sine wave created by God, and that christ is the right arm of God, which produces the wave, which is God. The wave and its creator are inseparable as God is the lowest frequency sine wave from which all other waves are created via harmonics (angels). The Negative pole of a battery personifies the trinity more than anything. The entirety of religion is the study of waves made by God. Humans have gotten stupider by interpreting the children's version to slaves who they later fathered children with.
Early Christians knew a good deal: three Gods for the worship of one.
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
I lived with my wife and kids in Ashtead for a year, just down the road from Wimbledon. Surrey is super!
The trinity was definitely made up, and doesn't even make sense to have 3 distinct separate entities that are all somehow the same to tell a story.
Jesus never even said he was 1:1 God with the Father, often stating how different they are. The 'holy spirit' was just meant to describe the underlying 'ghost in the machine' we all have.
Jesus only indicated he was A SON of God, and that WE ARE ALL SONS of this 'father' source (not just Jesus). Jesus never wanted to be worshipped as a God, and christianity was duct-taped together with the existing jewish beliefs at the time.
Jesus was obviously a participant in the Eleusinian Mysteries, trying to communicate that we are 'all sons of the most high, but will die like pigs', which means we are all spiritual beings but will experience physical death like lowly animals.
A thing that no theologian uses.
The way my "Religious release" (release from school for religious education) teacher explained it was to put three separate drops of water on her hand, and then having them pool in the middle to demonstrate three separate into one. What was really happening is that my Mom felt guilty for not taking us to Church.
It does make sense to be a mind and a body at the same time without being two different beings don't you think?
@@randatatang9222 Nope, that makes no sense at all. If you have no body, you have no mind, and without your mind, your body is just meat.
You can also be a fully cat and fully elephant at the same time
MEGAN, I just noticed your glasses. I kept looking at them and was thinking something looks different. Finally, I realized the design. They are absolutely the coolest looking glasses I’ve ever seen! What a beautiful design. I’m a male, but would like to see what designs are offered to males. Who designed them or what company sells this designers glasses? Very cool looking.
Could you guys please stop simping for her? We come here to listen to Bart, not the attention seeking woman.
Super bummed I missed the conference! I would have totally jumped on that
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.(Quran 4:171)
Trinity came from copying Zeus, his father, etc. Its absolutely not Christianity 😢
Really?? Are you saying this because you think God can't appear as a human??
Its even in the old testament. Even Jewish scholars have started to agree, go read Rabbi Benjamin Sommer's, "The bodies of God"
This whole concept is much easier to understand with the help of the right mushrooms. 😊
This obviously came from the trinity in Hinduism Brahma (creator) ,Vishnu (preserver) ) Shiva the destroyer.
Us
Just because 2 different cultures have similar ideas, does not necessarily mean they are related, nor does it mean they are unrelated. Evidence must be provided to make such an assertion plausible.
My issue is the bible doesnt say "Trinity" and it doesnt say they are equal. In Jesus dwelt the fullness of God, but the Son is certainly not equal to the Father...The bible simply doesnt support the Trinity doctrine.
"in Jesus dwelt the fullness of God". What does that even mean? It sound a bit like porn to be honest.
@@ohana8535hahaha your mind is in the gutter and I love it lol
The trinity is something that developed over the centuries. Just like most other things in Christian theology.
@@jp783 😁
The Bible doesn’t spell out the Trinity doctrine, but it engenders it by contradicting itself. The Trinity doctrine is an attempt to resolve certain contradictions in the Bible. Unfortunately, the Trinity doctrine is itself contradictory. The only real way to resolve the contradictions is to renounce the basic tenets of Christian faith. Jesus is not God, never was God, and didn’t become God. He was an itinerant self-appointed preacher with certain religious ideas, certain ethical ideas certain and devoted followers. When Jesus was arrested, tortured, and killed, his followers tried to come to terms with his death, the manner of his death, and the circumstance that Jesus’s central prediction did not come true. That attempt to come to terms initiated Christianity.
The next episode sounds really interesting! This one was great too, as always. :)
Excellent.. I love listening to Bart.. One of the most insightful scholars
Another way to reconcile the Godhead without resorting to the "Trinity" dogma.. is a concept of "Divine Investiture".. where the Father bestowed or vested the Son with his authority to act in his name. Much like a business owner bestows upon a CEO, but on a divine level. This is a little like Bart mentions that some say God made Jesus God.. but this investiture occurs before creation of the world. See Job 38:7 and John 1 And in the end, the Son will hand over the kingdom (Like CEO handing over the business) subject himself to the Father 1 Cor 15: 20-28. A similar investiture is being done with the Holy Spirit, that the Father sends.. Within the context of investiture, the will of the Son becomes the will of the Father, simply by the entrusted delegation of authority from the father. So when Jesus speaks , it carries the same weight and authority as the Father, during the his vested stewardship.
Another think that helps reconcile the Godhead.. is not to demand strict Monotheism. The ancient Jewish cosmological world view was one of Henotheism.. Worship of one God (YHWH , god of Israel) , while not denying the existence of others. Deut 32:8-9.. God divided human kind according to the number of the sons of God. Israel was YHWH own portion. This is the world view that needs to be understood with detero-Isaiah verses that are typically used to project the "One God" monotheism .. but in reality, it was to affirm that for a captive Israel, there is only ONE God for Israel , and the god of Babylon (Marduk) was real but inferior. Once you come to this epiphany and realize that the demand for a ONE of the Universe wasn't a Jewish concept, but a Neo-Platonist idea that was becoming popular in the 3rd-4th centuries.. the scriptures actually demanding a 'Trinity' dogma..
The whole Trinity dogma was simply a product of the times, the Hellenization of Christianity.
John 10:30-38
Separate individuals, but in effect the same being.
30 "I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be set aside- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
That is similar to how the followers of Jesus understood him, born completely human but anointed/elevated by God the Father either at John's Baptism on in his resurrection.
@@fiily1 Nothing in Jesus citing of Ps 82 demands that they are one being.
@@Sportliveonline good for them.. I don't follow JW's ..but if they recognize that the trinity doctrine isn't actually expressed in the Bible.. good for them.
@@ji8044 I think that's kind of what Bart was saying, and probably very true for how his disciples understood him during his life and ministry.. However, it's equally plausible that he was elevated by investiture, before the world was. See Job 38 and John 1 Col 1:15-20
The whole idea of a triune God is nonsense, and was never mentioned in scripture...although some will make up places where they think it is. It is not only illogical, it is just an idea of early Roman scholars , when they created their version of Christianity. People have been conditioned to believe all this silliness and don't even know it. Step away from what you have been told all your life and learn to think.
@moehoward8691 - Let me ask you a very simple question, Do you understand what "progressive" Revelation is ? For example, When Jesus Revealed the "extensive" Revelation of "Adultery" in (Matthew 5:27,28), when He said that the SIN is actually committed in the "heart", and is NOT the "outward" physical act of 'Adultery" ? Because you know very well that God did NOT reveal "this part" of the Revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai.
To say that there is NO "progressive" Revelation from God, is to say that God has ALREADY REVEALED EVERYTHING ABOUT HIMSELF in the "written" Word which is not even LIVING.
I can give you a LIST OF THINGS that Jesus REVEALED in the NT that was NOT REVEALED in the OT, and NONE OF THEM "contradict" the ORIGINAL "utterance", and that INCLUDES the TRI-UNE NATURE OF GOD.
It's a good idea to have the summary at the end of the video.
The "The Lord is One" has always been the foundation of all major religions.
@@SY-gd6yc Do you include Hinduism in that statement? I think the Shema was a direct challenge to the polytheism that became rampant after the Great Flood. There have been many great but false religions based on polytheism.
@SY-gd6yc - The LORD is ONE, even Jesus reveals this in Mark 12:29 when he quotes Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4. "You" are also ONE Human being, but you are made up of 3 parts, Spirit, Soul, & Body. And without any of those 3 parts, you do NOT "exist" as ONE human being...Get It ??
They have certainly disbelieved who say, “Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.(Quran 5:73)
God wills therefore God is trinitarian.
Q: why is there something rather than nothing ? A: Because it is better that something (God) exists than nothing exit at all. (this is called faith by the way. ) therefore something (God) 's existence is the best. And that something (God) itself /himself is the best, otherwise that something (God) is self contradictory. man cannot follow two different masters; therefore we need to identify who the greatest possible master (God) is. the greatest possible master (God) is the one who created everyone else, otherwise he is not the greatest. why did God create? - because he wills so. the best will is to love other. the most proper love is between equals. created things are not God's equals for God has been loving before creation. Therefore God must be more than One. if there are only two persons in the world the two persons has not choice but to love each other for companionship. therefore to freely or validity love each other there must be more than two persons. since God is the best, having two choices (three persons altogether) and having millions choices (millions of persons ) doesn't make the quality of choice any better. therefore only three persons is necessary. and therefore God is one and God is three.
God wills, therefore , God is trinitarian( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). all man want/need is wisdom ..man study chemistry, physics, biology,...,history, political science, philosophy, theology, religions to gain wisdom.
wisdom is "knowing" "what" "to do".
God is WISDOM itself.
God/WISDOM:God the Father is the "whatness"/what is that exsts; God the Son is "knowing" of knowledge/truth/revelation; and God the Holy Spirit is the "doing"/the good.
Your Allah is not even the true God so no one cares!
Well, it’s fortunate that Trinitarian Christians don’t say that then isn’t it?
@@joygibbons5482
Trinitarians say that the father( Almighty God) is one of the persons of the trinity.
There is no denial when it comes to this claim and doctrine.
There is Christian trinitarians and Hindu trinitarians, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Any historical connection?
I've heard that the pseudopigrapha book "Odes of Solomon" affirmed the Trinity and was written between 70C.E. and 120 C.E. That date seems astronomically early. I guess the doctrine hadn't been fully worked out yet, but I'd like to hear Dr. Ehrman's take on "The Odes of Solomon" concerning the Trinity.
Megan's glasses holy shit. This is what the future was supposed to look like. Thank you.
Philosophy is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat.
Metaphysics is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.
Religion is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there and shouting "I found it".
Science is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat using a flashlight.
Dope glasses!!! Love your style!!!
OMG, those glasses. I like Megan, but those are a little distracting.
John !: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
@@FLDavis there is no beginning nor end there is only the continuous moment.
@@FLDavis Truth hurts people like Bart and his followers.
It says the word, God's spoken word obviously, as it says in Proverbs, the wisdom of his word personified as a female, was in the beginning with God
No where does the word "Jesus" appear in any of those verses. Not does the "word" mean a person any more then a book means a person
Nor is their a scripture u can point to where it shows anyone Jesus was doing things with God in heaven before his birth
You trinitarians are adding ur doctrine to the word it is not written here
When Jesus was born then God's word and his wisdom was manifested to us.
"Jesus became wisdom onto us" book of Hebrews
People just care more to cling to their beliefs instead of pursue truth
Always has and always will be this way
@@liberatedspirit3554
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
@@liberatedspirit3554
WORD: Strongs #s
H1697 ___ used @ Jer. 1:1 & Jer. 1:2 KJV+
דָּבָר
dâbâr
daw-bawr'
From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 1438
KJV
Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
Jer 1:2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
Jer 1:1 The words H1697 of JeremiahH3414 the sonH1121 of Hilkiah,H2518 ofH4480 the priestsH3548 thatH834 were in AnathothH6068 in the landH776 of Benjamin:H1144
Jer 1:2 To whomH834 the word H1697 of the LORD H3068 cameH1961 in the daysH3117 of JosiahH2977 the sonH1121 of AmonH526 kingH4428 of Judah,H3063 in the thirteenthH7969 H6240 yearH8141 of his reign.H4427
Brenton’s Eng Sept.
Jer 1:1 The word of God which came to Jeremias the son of Chelcias, of the priests, who dwelt in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
Jer 1:2 accordingly as the word of God came to him in the days of Josias son of Amos king of Juda, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
Greek OT Sept.
Jer 1:1 τοG3588 T-NSN ρημαG4487 N-NSN τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM οG3739 R-NSN εγενετοG1096 V-AMI-3S επιG1909 PREP ιερεμιανG2408 N-ASM τονG3588 T-ASM τουG3588 R-GSM χελκιουN-GSM εκG1537 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPM ιερεωνG2409 N-GPM οςG3739 R-NSM κατωκειV-IAI-3S ενG1722 PREP αναθωθN-PRI ενG1722 PREP γηG1065 N-DSF βενιαμινG958 N-PRI
Jer 1:2 οςG3739 R-NSM εγενηθηG1096 V-API-3S λογοςG3056 N-NSM τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM προςG4314 PREP αυτονG846 D-ASM ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF ημεραιςG2250 N-DPF ιωσιαN-PRI υιουG5207 N-GSM αμωςG301 N-PRI βασιλεωςG935 N-GSM ιουδαG2448 N-PRI ετουςG2094 N-GSN τρισκαιδεκατουA-GSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF βασιλειαG932 N-DSF αυτουG846 D-GSM
G4487 ῥῆμα rhēma
hray'-mah From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word. Total KJV occurrences: 70
G3056 λόγος logos
log'-os From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 330
The Trinity is basically the point where churchianity joined partners with God - the only unforgivable sin.
Why is it not possible to view that the mission of Christ began when God caused the Holy Spirit to descend to Jesus? God is the Most Great Spirit, if you will. He sends the Holy Spirit into someone like Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, causing them to be a man possessed of divine knowledge and will. This is a fully workable model that reconciles all of the necessary requirements of the stations of each of them, but also does not create any of the great inconsistencies that plague such a byzantine dogma. It also honours Occams Razor. Sadly, the early church architects imagined and insisted upon exclusivity so that this religion would appear superior to all others, and thereby ensure their continued ascendency, power, and control.
I grew up pentecostal and and every once in a while you run into non-trinitarian pentecostals. Usually they believe some form of Modalism like the Oneness or Apostolic Pentecostal churches. You'll even hear the modalist explanation of God from ppl who think they believe in the trinity haha. I wonder historically where this came from. I didn't realize it myself until I took adult initiation classes at a Catholic church. That was the honestly the first time I heard the phrasing that God is 3 persons sharing 1 nature/essence/ being.
My experience was fairly short lived among the Pentecostals .The preacher had the gift of receiving direct messages from "god" in tongues and his wife had the gift of translation of those tongues. So that was the part of the service god himself thanked us for making the car payment, the house payment for the preacher and his wife and the new church bus we were chipping in for. That's the way it went every Sunday and you know what? God even told us about emergency funding crises that our dear preacher had. As I said, short lived experienced.
There is no God.
@@gazzas123 Agreed. As they are defined and by the behavior of their followers and lack of care for them or even telling it's followers they must not lie.. oh wait, they did and they do and nothing happens. Well, until you get to the river Styx which no one can see until their dead proves what you say is true. I remember this comedian who would show up on Saturday Night Live in the 80's I think. His name was Father Guido Sarducci and he had a bit in his set and he thought that we should (just for fun) take all of the Bob's Big Boy statues and spread them around the countryside or put them on an island. That way when civilization arose once more crawling out of the ashes after another cataclysm they would think the statues were ancient god's and the people would worship them. lol.
Ever wondered how the borrowed Trinity concept got a 'Christian' title?
Here is Paul's prophecy.
(Acts 20:30) and from AMONG YOU yourselves men will rise and SPEAK TWISTED THINGS to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Ponder over it.
@@tongakhan230 Good catch. I've been telling the faithful who show up wanting to tell me the good news that they are that generation the bible speaks of the great turning away who have become lovers of themselves and worship the beast. They get up and leave. Works every time perfectly Lol.