IS ATP FLIGHT SCHOOL A SCAM?? - why I chose NOT to go to ATP
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2024
- WHY I WOULDN'T GO TO ATP FLIGHT SCHOOL //
A big welcome back to the channel! In this video I'm sharing with y'all some of the reasons that I chose to NOT go to ATP Flight Schools.
As I said in the video, I AM NOT SAYING ATP IS A BAD SCHOOL. For me, it wasn't that right choice.
Here's a few reasons that I mention in the video that led me to not go to ATP...
-- didn't hear good things from alum
-- seems a little too fast
-- too much marketing
-- seemed rushed
If you disagree with my assessment, or if you want to share your thoughts, write a comment below! Also feel free to send me a DM on instagram!
New videos come weekly.
Follow me on insta: @global.graham
Email me your questions: grahamcargle@gmail.com
Many thanks and blessings,
-Graham, xoxo
0:00 Intro
0:25 DISCLAIMER
0:55 What's ATP
2:40 Why I chose not to go
5:36 ATP graduates
7:55 In their defense 
Кино
ATP alimni, CFI and newly hired airline F.O. here. I was a student and Lead Flight Instructor at one of their locations. However, I was an independent contractor for the company, as are all the CFIs, and my comments are my opinion, not those of the company. Nor are they intended to represent the company in any way
Even though I feel the title is a liiiitle clickbait-y, this was a really good video. ATP is very aggressive with their advertising. But like many have said, it's a business competing against others. Having the edge ensures they stay profitable. While their strategies may seem predatory, I can honestly say ATP did, in fact, offer everything they told me they would, including a completion of 9 months 0-time to CFII/MEI (barring weather, of course) and a fast-track to a regional with the option to F.O. at a mainline (I opted to sign at a regional offering tuition reimbursement and desirable domiciles)
Things have changed quite a bit with enrollment over the years. ATP recognizes the risk in investment with yourself at such a program, and there are now several pre-enrollment requirements one must meet, such as completion of an aptitude test, or at least a degree from a college. This ensures that applicants have the aptitude for pilot training and rigorous study requirements. After enrollment, applicants must take an admissions flight with a CFI, which is designed to further determine your aptitude as an applicant in person with an instructor. CFIs are then required to submit a form on their assessment of the applicant's anticipated ability to excell in the program. After program start, students spend 2 weeks in virtual ground school and preparing for their PAR before even starting a flight. As the student progresses, there are multiple spot checks performed with lead instructors to determine your progress. If at some point, an applicant's progress comes into question, training is paused and an assessment with management is performed, usually resulting in a retraining plan with extra ground/flight time allotted, assuming the deficiencies can be corrected with the applicant's investment in mind. There were times, as the lead instructor, I had to tell somebody that the program was not for them, and to maintain integrity with their investment, stopping training was the appropriate answer.
Instructors, and ATP as a whole, will do everything in their power to get you to that checkeide pass...as they should! Thats the short term goal! However, CFI's are told early on not to risk their endorsement! If an applicant is not ready, we do not send them. ATP gets a bad rap as a pilot mill because they push through so many applicants into the industry. But they dont send those who aren't ready or are not capable. On the contrary, I cannot tell you how many students started the program with their private pilot's license from a "mom and pop" school, and we quickly discovered that there was no way they'd be able to pass a private pilot checkride with our examiner if they were to test again! If student's do not meet set standards, ATP maintains integrity with their investment
ATP was an excellent program for me. I started with 25 hours flight experience, and 2 years as an Air Traffic Control Specialist at an ARTCC. I definitely had the upper hand. Making a career change in my late 20s, I wanted to get to the end goal as quickly as possible. And ATP did just that. It was very structured with a multitude of resources and guidance. However, the program as a hole WILL NOT hold your hand through it (no passenger would want that of their pilot anyhow). As with any learning/training program, it relies heavily on the applicant's capability, dedication, desire, and self discipline. Getting that many certificates in the advertised time frame takes full time, "full immersion" as they call it, training. The upside is that full immersion prevents atrophy, and foundations of learning stay familiar, allowing applicants the ability to "fast track"
ATP is for sure not for eveybody! I cant tell you how many applicants I told this to. But it is an excellent program for those who have the aptitude and drive. "Integrity with the student's investment" is part of their mission statement, and that statement is passed down to every single CFI there. Im glad you were able to find a training program that worked well for you! See you in the skies!
Thank you so much for the comment. I think this is the most well-thought-out comment on this entire video. I'm so glad that you took the time to share your experience.
I've flown with 4 ATP guys now and I can't say anything bad about their style or knowledge. They're all clearly very skilled aviators. Again, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to explain things from an insiders perspective!
That’s the impression I got from ATP. I’ve been debating on how I want to continue my training after a long time away from flying. I’ve got my PPL & IR, but feel as if I may need to start all over. After reviewing material, I’m shocked at how much I’ve forgotten. I also would be changing careers, if I can find the right path to do it.
I got my PPL at a “mom and pop” program. How can I learn and make sure that the way I fly is to ATP standards ?
"there was no way they'd be able to pass a private pilot checkride with our examiner" Sorry but an FAA DPE does a check-ride for a PPL and now we have a Private Pilot and ATP does a check again? I understand if someone is not proficient and needs a review but Can you elaborate on this comment? This tells me APT wants to make extra $$ and make a private pilot go through the whole process again.
Thanks for your comment bro, that’s exactly what i’m looking for right now.
I have been flying for 30 years and was a Flight School owner. I have over 4,000 as a CFI. ALL flight schools are in the business of "making money." ALL pilots are in the business of making money. Pick a flight school that has planes that appear (you will never know for sure) to be airworthy. Find an instructor that you get along with and who actually teaches you something. It's expensive everywhere you go. That's all you need to know.
Great advice! Thanks for taking the time to comment.
If only it was as easy as 30 years ago there wouldn’t be a pilot shortage
I agree with everything you said and those are also the reasons why I didn’t chose ATP. The fast paced program being cut even shorter was too fast paced. You would literally have no days off, flying and studying everyday for 7 days. I don’t care how much you love Aviation and flying, you’re going to get burnt out. I decided to go to American Flyers and I’m so happy I did! I did their Airline Academy, their version of a fast paced program and I’ll be finishing up my CFII soon. It took me a year total!
Yeah, ATP's fast track just seems unreasonably fast to me. It sort of reminds of cram-studying in high school for an exam. You may remember the material for the exam, but good luck remembering anything two weeks down the road, hahaha.
I've never heard of American Flyers, but I'll look them up!
Hey are you in the Dallas area? Would you be willing to share your experiences with me?
Imagine taking out $80k in loans and going to a truck driving school called “CDL” and when you graduate, you don’t even have a CDL license and all they really taught you was how to drive a pickup truck with a trailer. That’s basically ATP.😂
I've never thought about it that way, but you ain't wrong 😂
@@grahamcargle i dont get can u plz explain
Yeah that is every single flight school buddy. The FAA regulates the 1,500 hour rule after hundreds of people had to die in crashes. The airlines will pay the ATP license. You dont hear of airline pilots complaining about their loan lol (ATP also offers the ATP training as well if you wanted to just pay for it yourself)
Damn that's funny!
I’m at 1450 hours, went through ATP, instructed for two and a half years, and will be heading to the airlines shortly.
ATP provides the ingredients, it’s up to you to assemble the recipe.
Do you have to instruct or can you do other things to get hours?
@@apexdeer9362 you can do other things to build hours. Banner towing, pilot for sky diving, etc.
Hello Mr. Johnathan
I am an Indian student studying in nigeria and i am in class 10 right now, I aspire to become a pilot and I would like to join ATP Flight school to become a pilot... Could you guide me on this and the other things I need to work upon and how I can do graduation besides my flight training
Please help me out I look forward for a reply 🙏🏼
Get hours however you can!
Hello! I would be happy to offer advice but ATP only trains foreign students after they go through a process with TSA. I would recommend calling ATP as I am not familiar with this process. Best of luck to you in your journey!
ATP is way too expensive. I believe one of the best ways to go is a Part 61 flight school. I did part 61 and it took me 30K to get my commercial in 10 months. I did not rush at all, I’ve met people in a Part 61 flight school go from 0 to commercial in 3 months. I spent a bunch more money on CFI than I should have, so overall from student pilot to CFI/CFII/MEI I spent 45K. How fast someone gets to the airlines depends on that person’s discipline and schedule. Once you are a CFI you can finish the 1500 hrs within a year being very consistent. There’s always cheaper ways to do part 61. A flight school is just the middle man that connects students with instructors and airplanes and collects money from doing that, like charging a student $60/hr for instruction and paying $30/hr to their instructors. Most instructors would be happy to work with you out of the flight school (it benefits both parties) and most airports have airplanes available to rent at a cheaper or equal rate than the flight schools. There are also flying clubs in different airports and there are CFIs in those clubs. A flight school is not the only way to get your certificates and I had to do it all over again I wouldn’t go to one of them. Also, all the theory you need is for free online and on the FAA website. There is no reason whatsoever to spend all that money just to go to ATP.
If you don’t mind me asking what part 61 school did you go to too get your commercial?
It was called Dean International in Miami (KTMB), the flights school ended up closing in 2018 because it seemed to have issues with foreign student supply and there were a few accidents caused by pilot error.
Part 61 is a fantastic option! I did my PPL at a Part 61 and loved it. Personally, I needed to get away from home in order to really focus myself and I really loved the structure that Part 141 brings. That's incredible that you did it all for $45k!
@@grahamcargle
Do you have a list of professionally accredited schools that don't charge an arm and a leg, as well as actually do a great job of teaching student pilots?
WOW....thanks for the info.
Is there a way to take the FAA written knowledge exam without paying for ground school and without getting a CFI endorsement?
It makes no sense to me because ground school teaches the exact same thing in the Book "Pilot's Handbook Of Aeronautical Knowledge" that you can get for free online!!!!! 😠
I went to ATP and if I had to do it all again, I’d go right back through those doors. It was the most efficient and streamlined path with great planes that are well maintained and always available. Working there as a CFI was rough and very demanding with low pay, but it is also the quickest path to getting to 1500 hours.
Do you mind telling us how much they pay to CFIs?😮
@@alexcarran7747 $18/flight hour
That was my thought when they told about the CFI at least to achieve the 1500 hours would be quick af
@@ryuko8728 I went to ATP with the goal of flying corporate jets solely. And that’s what I’m doing now. I’m loving it. There are pros and cons to both airlines and corporate flying. I’m honestly loving the pros of corporate and I can see why some pilots eventually switch over to corporate from the airlines.
@@Callsigntitan yea you get there quick. Especially if you’re in Arizona or Nevada…the weather is like Mars. No wind and no storms. You can get a lot of hours per week. I was in KMMU so we battled ice, snow and strong wind constantly. Made us better pilots from day one and taught us to make constant real life go/no go decisions
⚠️ Literally ATP is advertising on your video haha. Side note I am in one of their locations now and they’re not a school. They’re a sales and marketing corporation. They have quotas and region managers and they will do whatever they can to get you through quickly in order to get the next batch of kids’ money. The average instructor’s take home after taxes is $1200/month. CFIs are 1099 employees. Corporate recently announced every time off request for students and teachers will be denied unless it’s a life threatening emergency. I work at an Airline currently and carry the medical benefits through working there a few days a month. Well ATP has started denying my work requests saying that’s not an emergency. I’m 31. I think I can weigh the pros and cons of medical insurance vs getting through the program 2 weeks faster thank you very much. Be aware if you have familes, a mortgage or obligations at all, this might not be the program for you. I am a second failed eval away from being kicked out and honestly, if that happens, I will be relieved that I can pick a better flight school with more flexibility.
Thank you Graham...I needed to see this video! :)
My 16 year old has 3 solos under his belt. One cross country solo at 25 hours, here in Ft.Wayne, IN. His plan is to get his ppl then follow through with either a local college program affiliated with his airport or a flight school in surrounding states. He’ll be there soon!
I been doing as much research as i can, especially with me having Type 2 Diabetes and being 34 years old as of today as im writing this. Not only do i have this going on, but crippling debt as well. I always wanted to fly since i was young. From my local mom and pop to Blueline Aviation to ATP, i think any flight school will be a good trainer since i relatively have nothing else going on in my life. Single, no kids. I hear better things about Blueline than ATP, but at my age (assuming when ill start) if i hunker down and put the pieces together i think ATP would essentially give me somewhat a guarantee, assuming if im (or anyone) too incompetent. What i realize growing up is if you stick to it and if youre serious things will fall through, like college for example. I went to college dropped out and tried to go back and half the stuff i did i hardly retain, but that was because i didnt take college seriously. Now that im older, if i do decide to go back to (any) school i know that i would have to take it seriously... and if i go to ATP for example i will take it seriously because i know money is involved and the last thing i want to be is THAT guy the fucks up. I think ATP and any school flight or not is just "fast tracking" you (anyone) for the career change because in a nut shell thats their investment. And if ATP is partnered with an x-amount of airlines, youre essentially just shifting your life to a new career, and theyre just the middle man so to say.
As we speak im still looking keeping my options open, but at this point in my life i dont mind being the sheep and following the herd. Been making minimum or slightly above minimum all my life, and starting off at $100 per hour as a F.O. dont really seem that bad. And im sure if youre making pennies to the dollor some of those pennies will go to your loan that you took out for school. Lets say its ⅛-¼ of the loan you paid of by being an ATP flight instructor. Once when you become a F.O. assuming the loan is $80k-$100k, all you have to pay is $70,k/$75k-$90,k/$95,k (assuming i did my math right) and within a year or two that can literally be paid off, assuming if there are no other obligations like rent, insurance, car note, cellphone, etc.
I also joined the Navy when i was 27 and when i joined i realize youre not too young to learn, and you have to take things seriously. So ending on this note i do appreciate your video, and it does give me an insight on what to expect if i do decide to sell my soul and go to ATP.
I do hope to see you in the skies. "Aim high" "look ahead".
Imma trucker I’m thinking about becoming an airline pilot 👨✈️
It’s a really fantastic career! There’s such a massive need right now.
Do it! I start ATP in April. I respect blue collar and ive done that since highschool. But coming up on 30. Im tried of breaking my back. Time to start using my brain and not my body.
Find a way and make it work for sure
@@jamescangelsoi8918 Same!
Same dude! We can do this!
Bruh sammeee
Thank you for your opinions. I am looking for a CFI job recently.
From experience . I went through ATP may -Oct 2022. At the KLGB location . But I went credit private definitely recommend that . Build your foundation at a good flight school. There is good and bad points to ATP. But if you fall behind or don’t meet their standards they might let you go. I had to fight like four times to stay and finish up to comm single. Was told ATP pace isn’t for me. Instrument rating about two months , comm single 3 weeks , CFI initial one month, CFII one week , comm multi one week, and MEI one week only . I thought it is crazy to pump people through that fast . Doing CFI and multi elsewhere. A lot of classmates decided to opt out of doing CFI at ATP. One good thing about atp is the camaraderie and supporting each other.
I can't imagine doing your CFII and MEI each in one week 😅
That makes me tired just thinking about it! Your perspective is pretty much what I heard from some other ATP grads, so that's what led me to seek other options.
Would you suggest ATP to others?
@@grahamcargleyeah they used to be longer like 0 to MEI used to be 9 months now 7 . Credit private to MEI used to be 7 now about 5 . Also there was a rumor about CFI academy at KIWA going around the time I went to ATP that they made it harder because too many people were passing and they want to limit hiring CFI atp grads . Not sure if that’s true lol. But yeah other programs are the same if people want to go it will be a struggle. Was told not to have a job or do any extra activities while at school .I was practically there 7 days a week either studying or flying . Felt like I Lived in the study room/ sim room . Some I recommend going some I don’t . Depends on how they can adapt to that fast paced flying /studying five months I must have flown like 105 flight hours. I recommend getting quality flight training honestly . Hope it helps others decide .
Wowww, I cannot imagine doing to it all in 5 months 😅 It makes my head spin just thinking about it.
Aviate pretty much tells us the same stuff about having a job though. They've told us to expect a pretty non-stop lifestyle until we get out MEI...
@@grahamcargle I applied to aviate did the personality exams. Now have to schedule technical interview in Denver CO. I didn’t mind the non stop honestly lol . I got to fly pretty much everyday . Good luck with your endevours hope to fly with United in the near future .:)
That’s great! Who knows, we might be flying together one day :)
you have any tips for a 16 year old that is going to start training?
This video did give me something to think about. What are other schools you would recommend?
Hey Patrick, great question. I suggest Aeroguard, Epic Flight, Superior Flight, and Blueline. Maybe just do some research in your local area and see if you can find some schools around you to get your feet wet. If you have the time/resources, I HIGHLY suggest you narrow down your choices to one or two, then go and visit those schools.
@@grahamcargle what do you think of Blue line?
@@josephpe90 I’ve been talking to them. There school seems better then ATP. But if blue line finances your education, there bank will charge you a variable interest rate.
Im looking into Pheonix East Aviation. Touring this weekend.
Thanks for the video.
Which flight school did you choose? ATP certainly has expanded in locations in recent years. About 20 years ago, they only had one school in Georgia (Atlanta) and I was strongly considering enrolling. I actually had a great phone conversation with one of their reps who gave me the information I needed to make a wise decision, which was NOT to pursue commercial/airline aviation. A year (or so) later, the majors announced huge layoffs. It does seem the flight school explosion has become basically a pilot mill.
I’m in the Aviate program with United, so I’ll end up going with United’s school in Arizona, or one of their partners, Skyborne, in Florida!
Thanks for sharing this great information. Live it .
I was in between staying at the flight school I’m at and going to ATP you have helped me realized it’s a lot better to stay at the flight school I’m already at so thank you!
Thanks so much for watching! It's definitely a huge decision, so be sure to do all your research!
I just stopped going to ATP school in May . You’re right, they just push students through and hope you pass your checkride. And if you don’t they drill your instructor. I received an unsatisfactory on my GPS holding pattern - we had only practiced them once because my instructor said the DPE that they use only tests on a VOR holding pattern, so that is what we practiced. The DPE decided to switch it up that day. I received almost no ground school training during my time there with 3 different instructors. I had also talked to a different flight school and the owner of that school said if any CFI/CFII completes their training at ATP and applies for a CFI position at his school they just throw the application away because they know that the person did not receive good enough training to teach others to be safe pilots
The logic from that flight school owner is spot on and makes total sense. If someone is an ATP graduate with their CFI and they were NOT hired by the flight school that trained them, that is a huge red flag. If I were an owner of another flight school, I would be hesitant to hire them as well.
The contract was written by the French family and sent to me. Is it acceptable for the embassy or should it be written on a special form?
I've always used the aupairworld templates, but I would give it a shot and see what happens.
Any flight schools you guys recommend in Orlando Florida?
Have you heard about the SouthWest Destination 225 Cadet Pathway program? If you have what are your thoughts on the program?
I am roughly familiar with the program but haven't researched it much, as Southwest has never really interested me. I know that they contract through CAE in Mesa, Arizona, which is a fantastic flight school. I actually visited in 2021 and was very impressed.
In general, the program seems very similar to other airlines such as United Aviate, Delta Propel, and American Airlines Cadet Academy. You go to school at CAE, instruct for them after graduating, then merge into Southwest.
As with all cadet programs, including Aviate which I'm in, you have to consider the cost over the benefit. If you're dead set on Southwest and love the culture, it might be for you, otherwise, I would consider being a free agent and just seeing what happens and where you land. Best of luck!
@@grahamcargle Very informative and thank you sir. It’s nice to get a response from a content creator that has the same passion for aviation. Good luck to you too sir.
PS
Part of the 74 crew! 😂
@@ridiculoushuman3636 Always glad to help out!
I'm in Calhoun Georgia and was looking into getting my commercial license and going to work for the airlines.
Hi graham If I study aviation in any flight school other than ATP, are my chances after I finish studying and have all the licenses and I have 1,500 hours Will my chances of being employed as an airline pilot become few because I did not study at ATP flight school?
As long as you have all your ratings and not too many fails, you WILL get hired by an airline. Just go with the school that's going to be best for you!
Former students talk smack about every CDL school also. Ive been through 2 of them class B then up grade to class A. They both got the job done. Sounds like ATP does something similar. Cant wait to hang up the trucker hat for a pair of aviators.
I ended up going back to UNI. 529 money can be used. restricted ATP at 1000hours and networking and time for other things. Not for everyone but for me it worked out as the best option.
University programs are a great option. I seriously looked into one here in GA, but I had already done my associate's, and the idea of going back to school just did not appeal to me.
Thanks nice video. Wanted to go to ATP but they wouldn’t let me in because of my beard which I have to keep for religious reasons. Also did hear that they will force you to take checkrides that you aren’t ready for and will schedule them in advance.
ATP Alumn here. Graduated Spring 2015. Firstly, it was like 20 grand cheaper back then. Secondly, ATP DOES want to push you through. HOWEVER, you ability and performance as a pilot is heavily dependant on a couple factors. One, being your dedication and passion. If you're someone who sees pilot salaries skyrocketing and are making this decision because of the paycheck, and you're not someone who has dreamed of flying since they first saw an airplane or took an airline flight, then ANY fast track program isn't (likely) going to be your best option. Why? Because if you have been obsessed with aviation for, let's say 5 years or so.. Chances are you've done a lot of reading or watched a ton of videos or in some way, shape, or form, have absorbed as MUCH information and trivia about aviation as you could because you thoroughly enjoy it as a hobby. This, although not even scratching the surface, will help as a foundation for flight school to build upon, and will help with ensuring you are studying and learning in good faith because you WANT to learn; not because you have to learn.
Another factor is your flight instructors. This goes for ANY flight school. Some instructors just suck. Some don't care. Some are checked out because they know they just need 100 more hours and they'll be flying a shiny jet for oodles of money. But some are GREAT! Some give a shit. Some are willing to help their students fully understand the material and inspire them instead of just giving them books to read and telling them to know it by the date of your test or lose a grand to a failed checkride and recheck. You're gonna find good and bad instructors at EVERY flight school. You're gonna have instructors with barely 260hrs and the ink still wet on their CFI at every flight school. And you're gonna have guys who are 2 weeks from leaving who don't really want to or care for taking on a fresh new PPL student right before they leave for the airlines. And at ANY flight school it is the duty of the student to find an instructor who works well with them, just as much as it is the duty of the instructor to be a good and attentive instructor.
What does this mean for ATP? Well, ATP is a big company, that sees a lot of pilots, a lot of students, and very quickly. If your local mom and pop school has 3 planes and 4 or 5 instructors and maybe 20 students, ATP as a company has like 250 planes and hundreds of instructors and thousands of students. Are they all at the same airport? No. But if one company has 500 instructors and 30% of them suck, you're gonna hear a LOT more horror stories about that company than "Jo and Martha's Sky School" that has 5 instructors and 30% of them suck. It's a numbers thing.
I got a lot to say about this. I have my own bad taste in my mouth about ATP from personal experience, but I won't go into that here. I only really bothered to write this cuz it seemed like this guy in the video made a 10 minute video based on what a few people said, and not personal experience... And anyone who's gonna not only take someone's word for something, but take someone's word who didnt even experience the thing... Idk. That's on you.
TLDR: If you dont wanna eat, breathe, sleep aviation. If you don't LOVE aviation. If you are not dedicated and committed. Don't go to ATP. If you're chasing a big salary and dont really care about aviation.. 1, reconsider your choices because this isnt just a "job". This is a huge lifestyle and lifelong choice and commitment (that can be taken away at any moment for a bunch of reasons), and 2, if you DO go to flight school.. Take youe time with it, at least through your PPL, before considering any fast track school.
“That guy” in the video is me, Graham. I agree with the vast majority of what you said.
I’ve done plenty of research for ME to make MY decision. I’ve never claimed to be any sort of expert, my goal is to simply share my research and help educate.
Insult me, fine, but don’t insult my viewers for doing their research. No one made you watch my video.
@@grahamcargle Hey man, I don't think I insulted anyone. If I did that wasn't my intention. I only made my post to share a broader opinion about flight schools as a whole. For every ATP horror story I've personally heard, I've heard a horror story about a mom n pop shop. So for me from my research, it isn't so much of an ATP problem more than it is a problem with flight instruction as a whole.
At the end of the day, you can go anywhere and get your certs. But you gotta find an instructor who not only knows what theyre doing, but who gives a shit. The way ATP does things is pretty predatory, and I don't like it either. But for non-military folks wanting a career in aviation, who don't have stacks of cash hidden somewhere but are able to get approved for a loan, ATP is one of the flight schools who can make it happen. At that point, it is up to the student to have good judgement and be assertive when it comes to their education to ensure theyre getting what theyre paying for.
@@tktailslideproductions7280 thanks for your input. You were very informative. You’re spot on with the quality of instructors. But if you were to have a quality instructor at ATP or another school today, knowing what you know about ATP since you graduated from there, which would you choose and why?
By saying you need to eat, sleep, dream, and shit aviation, are you saying that’s all someone has to think, watch, read about and dedicate his time to? They can’t have a love for other hobbies or jobs?
@@DuragVince- That’s a great question. If I had the same quality flight instructor at ATP vs another place, it’d come down to other factors. The airplanes at ATP, at least at the location I trained at, are amazing. I trained in (at the time 2015) almost brand new Piper Archer III’s with G500 glass cockpit suites and twin Garmin G430s. It was a great setup. And then the multi engine aircraft, The Piper Seminole, ranged from 1979 models to 2000 model years. They were all round gauge panels, but I think they have some new models now and have almost phased out the 1979 models. They were always well maintained and I never felt unsafe in any of them. So, is the other flight school in consideration providing the same quality of equipment? If so, then let’s move on.
Time frame. I managed to get through ATP in about 7 months. I know some guys currently are having different results (after all, whether can play a big factor in how quickly you move through training). But can this other flight school dedicate enough resources like maintained aircraft and flight instructor availability to get a student through their ratings expeditiously? If so, next.
Cost. When I went through ATP the cost was just under $75,000 including all check rides and other expenses. Now I believe it is over $100k for the same program (I did the 100hr multi package). Is this other flight school, that can get me through in the same time frame, flying modern and maintained aircraft, with quality flight instructors, cheaper or more expensive? On this note, do they have financing? I had to get a loan to pay for flight school since I didn’t have $75k under my mattress, and I doubt a lot of people do have mattresses that well-off. So can this other flight school meet all the other criteria and also accept financing?
There is a lot to think about when considering flight school, especially in today’s market where you can easily drop six figures on your training. And finding answers to your questions that make you feel okay with spending that much money is key. Spending that much money (especially when the loan/interest terms aren’t the best) is always going to be nerve wracking. And there are no guarantees when it comes to flight training. There isn’t really a fool proof way to vet flight schools for quality instructors, aircraft, and a time frame that fits your learning pace.
To answer your last question, ATP requires full time commitment. I was fresh out of high school and still living with my parents, and didn’t need to work. If you are going to try and work your way through flight school, ATP probably isn’t for you. It is a program that requires a ton of attention and self discipline because you are “on your own” for a lot of your studying. “On your own” is in quotes because it isn’t entirely accurate. In my experience at ATP there were at least a dozen other students at all different parts of the program. More advanced students can help with questions and you can help newer students with theirs. Most people going through the program aim for becoming a CFI, and CFI school at ATP is no joke (I didn’t finish it). So practice explaining topics even at an early stage is still useful practice. You also have access to the sims almost 24/7 whenever theyre not currently being used for a lesson.
You’re going to do a lot of reading and studying and planning in your down time, so although you won’t be completely shuttered from the outside world during training, its best practice to not make too many plans, and be spontaneous with your free time instead of making plans cuz things could change last minute.
So, would I go with ATP or another school if both schools offered the same thing for the same price? Well, if there was another flight school that could do the same thing for the same price, i’d explore that other option. A lot has changed since I went though ATP (however the one thing that hasnt changed is the bad press. People complained about it 10 years ago just as much as they do now). And although I would explore the other option, if my plan was to learn how to fly, get my CFI, flight instruct for 1250 hours until i got my 1500, and then go to the airlines, ATP still would have an edge because of their connections with the regional airlines. When I went through, they said if you went to ATP and were building time as an instructor, they’d get you 3 interviews with 3 different airlines, and most instructors while I was there knew where they were going and that they had a job when only at 1300 or 1400 hours, knowing that in a couple months theyd be off to get their ATP license and start indoc at the airline they chose from several offers.
If you made it this far through my rambling, congrats. I don’t know how to bring this all together into a conclusion. If you have more questions, ask away. Best of luck! Blue skies
What’s your insta man?
Went there for 2 ratings....comm multi and single, 12 years back. Failed bolth check rides. Never have I failed a check ride before or since that time. I'm an airline pilot now.
How interesting... I think their method of instruction is just not compatible with a lot of people (like myself). Thanks for sharing!
Great video i was actually at ATP in Oklahoma city they said everything from A to Z would take 7-9 months and in beginning of each month our class start i found it a little...yaa...today found spartan flight school which their class starts in march and itll take 17months so well see...
I'm a huge fan of taking longer to finish things. If you can handle the fast pace of ATP, that's great, but the majority of people just can't pull that off. Best of luck!
Fantastic video! Very fair, very informative. ATP does have the name recognition, for sure. You're absolutely right - it may be a great fit for some, but it's far from the only way to get it done.
I was once an ATP school hopeful, but was also a broke musician that couldn't get the financing for ATP. I eventually got a good paying job, then started training at a local Part 61 flight school. Part 61 schools are VERY underrated. Flying clubs are *THE* ticket to affordable time building. I'm glad ATP didn't work out for me. It took me more time, but now I'm a CFII (part time at school I got my PPL), own a paid-off Cessna 150, while holding down that same job, and with 0 flying debt. ZERO.
It can be done without the mountain of debt.
Thanks so much for the kind review!
That's so impressive that you went that route DEBT FREE! It's hard for me to imagine going debt free. I did the majority of my PPL at a local part 61 and loved it, I just need something with a bit more structure to fit my learning style.
Thanks for watching!
I'm in the same boat you WERE in. Now that I've secured the good paying job, I'm just trying to figure out which Part 61 school in my area would be the most practical and best fit. Good luck to you!
I am currently an ATP Student. You must do a “Intro Flight” aka discovery flight before you are approved to go through the program. You can also get a free discovery flight if your funding is approved and you have your first class medical. It is a set program outline. Before every phase you have a sim lesson pertaining to the flights coming up. (Straight and level, intro to manuevers,tols,solos, ect) so you dont waste time in the air learning the basics of it. Yes it is fast paced so I do recommend to come in with as many writtens as possible. But also ATP literally advertises as fast paced. You should know what your getting into before sign a loan to them.
I definitely agree. ATP is certainly not a bad school, I just want people to know as much as possible before getting into it! Thanks for sharing about your experience!
Thanks bro
Hey! Do you happen to know if it's hard to get into ATP or do they accept anyone?
Do you still have to pay for groundschool with ATP even after with all the writtens passed?
@@GOMD77 they have online group ground school for private and instrument included in the program and cfi academy. Lots of video resources.
This video is long overdue. I personally wouldn’t be as tactful as you.
My experience I was treated like garbage by my first instructor. I was withdrew from the program during a XC eval I failed.
They were not interested in pairing me with another instructor because the school was more interested in enrolling students for future start dates. $22k later I was left with no pvt cert.
This video is the best precautionary info I’ve ever heard and the best way to tactfully disparage this flight school.
Thank you so much for watching and sharing your experience. I try to be as honest as possible, so it's great to hear you confirm much of what I had heard.
So sorry you had that experience and I hope you pushed through!
Of course they want you to sign you up immediately. There is a pre flight assessment and orientation before you actually start flying. It’s just that they are very efficient once you commit to them
Yeah, I certainly can't argue with that. It just seemed a bit odd to me that each location I interacted with wanted me to make some sort of commitment, even if it's just coming in to talk with them, before they gave me too much info. Thanks for the comment!
Cool, I'm from GA too. What school did you choose?
Cool! I'm from Rome. I choose United Aviate!
I’m in Ga near kFFC and I’m stuck between either ATP or Academy of Aviation. Already will have my PPL
I would just try to find out which one fits you best. Some people absolutely adore ATP, some people hate it.
I would try and talk to students of both schools and hear what they have to say about each. Best of luck!
what do you think about community college?
A community college is a great option if you're looking to get your degree and still do some flight training. I have an Associate's from a local JuCo and I'm super pleased with it.
I've heard some pilots say that you should go ahead and get a Bachelor's ASAP, as if the market turns down, pilots with no degree, or a degree of lesser significance will be furloughed first. Just some food for thought...
Thank you. This really does mean a lot to me. God bless
There's an ATP ad under this video lol. You weren't lying
I’m telling you, they’re sharks 🤣
Hey Graham! Where did you go to school?
I'm awaiting a class date for the United Aviate Academy, but I did my PPL at a part 61 here in Georgia!
Current student of ATP. I had to do an interview, fight admissions test, video quiz, get FAA Medical Cert
Hey I know this comment was 4 months, but may I ask you how is the school like? I’m just thinking to switch from my current school to ATP.
I personally had a different experience. Where they had a phone interview with me asking about my background etc. a bit different. But I agree with most of it
These schools have become pilot farms, it’s all about passing check ride with substandard training. If those airplane aren’t flying the school is not making money. The same goes to the “flight instructor” I call them time builders. Part 141 is not for everyone, many should consider 61 training. My best advice is look for an instructor that’s old retired who loves general aviation and teaches for the love of it.
Unfortunately, you're totally correct. The general vibe that I got with quite a few 141s was that they simply wanted you in and out ASAP.
So where did you choose to go to school? If it's a four-year degree school, that's only for some people..... Then what?
There are many reasons not to go with ATP and you’ve mentioned many of them here. However, I think you have slightly idealized flight training in general. Most flight schools want your money, as it’s a hard industry to make a buck in. It’s about volume. Having pilots lingering around and not really following through is how you loose business. That said, being treated like cattle doesn’t leave a strong impression either. Lots of people say trashy things about ATP, but you need to know what you’re paying for, and I imagine most that choose to go there want their ratings as fast as possible.
Yeah i went to college to get my pilots license but it took 4 years and I have friends that went to ATP and some loved it and some hated it but they still completed the program and it only took my friends 8 months to 2 years total , ATP is an accelerated program and most people don’t realize what that means when they apply yeah they have all these connections and programs to get you into big companies or on your way to one but if you are like me and need a little more time studying or training then it might not be the best for you but if you excel in accelerated programs and it doesn’t take you long to grasp/understand the training and studying then it might not be so bad.
And as far as the people saying “i heard its a terrible school/company” and i just look at them and respond ok and have you went there yourself? ATP just like any other school/company has people that will talk about them badly just because they didn’t like the school or someone they know went there and that person didn’t like the school, so now you don’t like it? That’s like saying you’re friends didn’t have a good experience at Walmart and now you don’t like Walmart and your just going to shop at Target from now on.
ALSO BEFORE ANYONE COMMENTS AND TELL’S ME THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMMENT, YEAH I WAS AGREEING WITH CHRIS BUT ALSO MAKING A POINT ON ONE OF THE MANY REASONS ATP HAS A GOOD/BAD NAME.
@@guardian1582 I agree. Some excel in that environment. Some can’t make that work with their lifestyle or other commitments. There are all sorts of reasons why people choose other things. There are also valid reasons of why people DO choose to go there, and racing to get to a paycheck (especially when you are talking about going into almost 100k worth of debt to finance the training) actually has some logic to it. Everyone’s needs/circumstances are different and ATP fills a need in the market. They have drastically changed the way they do their training in most places over the years, but they still produce pilots.
so what school did you choose?
Generally curious in becoming a pilot, I dabbled with electronics then tech had some injuries now my interest spiked in becoming a pilot again. Got any tips or guidance on someone with Zero knowledge ?
Great question! I'm going to try and make a video ASAP about where to start from 0, but I'll give you a few tips. First, get your medical! Schedule a medical with an AME and find out if you are eligible medically to go pro as a pilot. Medicals are very delicate and getting one now can provide a good idea of your options.
Next, do some discovery flights. The name of the game in aviation is saving money, so shop around for the cheapest school with the best planes and instructors. A good many people drive over 30 minutes to get to a flight school.
Next, do your written before you start flying. This is my biggest regret! I waited too long and wasted sooo much money losing info, then going back to study. Getting this out of the way before you start flying will give you a HUGE knowledge bump. You'll learn lessons on the ground that you would otherwise have to learn in the air, which is very expensive.
I hope these helped!
@@grahamcargle getting on it ASAP, thank you I appreciate the insight!
For the same price you can be a heart/lung transplant surgeon. Lol! You can brace yourself when they won't give you a price and say "Come in and let's talk about it." Most of my friends now deceased never went through all that, they got most of their training in the military and only had to learn to fly the specific planes. Poor kids don't have a chance today.
5:09 So what's wrong with accepting anyone. Not like they giving certificates for free😂 7:53 I am definitely going here now, you better not be lying because I was scared to not pass😅
Definitely not saying ATP isn't a good school, just saying that it's not right for me!
I'm sure if you put in the work required, you'll do great!
i’m goikg this september 🤷🏻♂️ not sure why i wouldn’t. everyone hates on it did go there or isn’t even a pilot. everyone else says it’s good even current pilots price isn’t even that outrageous compared to other places
I went through ATP and left before the CFI program. Best thing I can say is that they did actually teach me to fly
The pilots I’ve flown with from ATP have all been safe, competent aviators. Thanks for sharing!
@@grahamcargle pretty much. I'm a solid pilot, but they made me hate going to fly. That's a biggie
Where did you end up finishing your flight instructions?
@@GalaxyBoundPioneer I didn't finish my CFI because of the $1600 checkride. I went to AirVenture in Olive Branch, MS
I have used the advertising reasoning for everything for years. I grew up and have worked in small businesses for my entire life except for my service time. I worked for an auto repair garage owned by a family member that had been in business for 30 years before I started working there. The only advertising he did was in the Catholic and Lutheran church and maybe some school papers. The 12 years I worked their I can't remember many times we weren't at leas week out on appointments. These small adds, word of mouth, honesty, and clean reliable work is what built the business. We weren't the cheapest place and didn't get into price competitions with others and we had good customers.
In Australia we call a flight school like that "a sausage factory"
This was a eye Opener
However, you didn't mention what you did instead🤦
wait so what did you decide to go and do?
You can see my most recent video for info 🤩😆
From now on when I fly im asking the pilot if he went to ATP 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
As much as I understand your grievances and think that you need to do what's right for you, I think the title postulating that ATP might be a scam is a bit much.
Again, also just an opinion.
Enjoy your flight training and hopefully the hard work pays off down the road.
Hey, thanks for watching! At the time of recording, I had heard lots of talk specifically about whether or not ATP is a scam, which I why I chose to use such a direct word. I let the viewers form their own opinions. Best wishes!
ATP WAS RUDE ON THE FIRST 3 calls when I called
They told me I was too old 😂
How old are you
wait how old are you were you straight out of high school ?
Most people in the USA graduate high school at 18!
@@grahamcargle no ik i meant how old were you when you not smartly decided to not go to atp
@@StrictlySports "Not smartly decided to not go to ATP"? I'm just gonna let this comment speak for itself...
@@grahamcargle i’m guessing your doing “ma and pa” part 61… which will end up costing the same as just doing atp … trust me you really won’t save much
@@grahamcargle unless your going to united aviate which is really not any less money then atp… and if you don’t wanna go to united then…
IF you cant pass a flight physical every 6 months flying commercial your career could easily be over fast.
Yes! I think I've said it to someone in the comments, but I always tell people interested in flying that step one HAS TO BE getting your medical, even if it's not required. It could save you loads of money and a broken heart!
Which flight school are you currently enrolled in?
I am awaiting a class date at the United Aviate Academy!
Prices look pretty steep. Is it guaranteed you’ll be making enough as a pilot to cover the expenses?
@@twpaq9332 Prices are steep, and of course, nothing is guaranteed, but pilots should be able to easily pay off their loans within a few years. United First Officers start around $90,000 per year, if that gives you a better idea.
@@grahamcargle That certainly does help. For those with financial situations lower credit scores it does make me wonder how likely one could be to qualify for financial assistance with such a cost to finance.
I was contemplating taking classes at a community college, but something accelerated with a dedicated focus sounds better and more credible.
I have my CDL and have been drive semi trucks across country for the past four years. Definitely would be a nice change.
@@twpaq9332 I highly, highly suggest that if you think you might be interested in a career in aviation, you look into it.
I would take a discovery flight at your local flight school and just see if you like it. If you do, start looking around for schools. Bigger schools are more expensive, but they also normally offer financing options. The loans can be astronomically high, but like I just said, you will earn that money back relatively quickly. Let me know if you have any questions!
ATP is also 7 days a week and its 118K, you really have to commit.
ATP is a training program at the end of the day. It’s no different than any other program as they’ll all have their pros and cons. You have to understand that when they built their school/business they didn’t build it for you, they built it for what’s required of you.
That's a great way to sum it up, thanks for the comment!
Total scam... Total DUMP! ATP's instructors were weird and unreliable! They have like a 90% dropout rate. They say its because others were "uncommitted" and your experience will be different. Of course it isn't though! Everyone I started with had quit within 3 months!! Don't be a sucker at ATP!!
You must have A1 credit as its very hard to get those loans.
Believe it or not, they'll give loans to just about anyone... The horrible part is that often, the monthly payment is well over what you make in a month as a CFI, so you have to immediately refinance after getting out of school.
And you wont have enough hours to get a job that pays enough to pay back those loans.
@@topofthegreen the interest rates with Sallie Mae are super high, but that's happening nation wide.
At the end of the day, ATP website clearly says you can defer payment until 6 months after graduation. Then, it's interest only payments for 12 months. Then you're at an airline.
another thing its a pilot mill and they focus on qwanity, not quality.
ATP - the swift of flight schools
Dude. There’s a shortage. And obviously if you’re wanting to apply you’re not joking around. ATP don’t play
ATP don't play!
Horrible experience and the instructors are just racking up hours on your dime. Just a business at the end of the day.
Here’s a clickbait video if I’ve ever seen one
I like your Ferrari Tesla example.. but also remember that the pandemic life savings vaccine against COVID by phizer was promoted for 2.8 billion dollars LoL 🤣 in other words USA 🇺🇸 government Is a joke 🤣 but I do love the video brother 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Our government does seem intent on making us have a good laugh 😅 Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment!
Just letting everyone know ATPs prices have gone up thousands of dollars. Complete scam. After this was announced they gave us no reasoning to why. They’re not ordering new planes, the instructors I’ve heard from also aren’t getting a raise and describe the same issues in the video. ATP just wants your money and you’re expendable to them. Imagine paying that much for a flight school and most of your lessons are cancelled because theres no plane since they hardly have any. If you’re paying more than $100,000 for your airline transport license run.
Wow, very interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, I've been hearing this lately from a couple of different ATP students. Best of luck in the rest of your training and keep your head up!
k then where should people go
@@StrictlySports Clearly not ATP. Took me a lot of research to find my flight school
@@arctictraxx clearly ? isn’t not really clear to me . explain why besides you think it’s expensive when in reality it’s really not that bad compared to other places
Not sure who gave you/where you got the info from, but in my time at ATP, the company purchased as many new C172s, PA28s and PA44s as they could get their hands on, faster than production could keep up with. They have also opened 20+ new locations, and instructors (myself included) got a raise in 2022, and again in 2023. Pay is still very bottom line for CFI, though. But the available hours were/are endless.
Tuition was increased after the spike in avgas prices, rather than continuing with a surcharge that was implemented
ATP is whatnit is... pay for play
It’s an overpriced pilot mill.
Cannot disagree on the overpriced side of it.
Fantastic video. I went to ATP to negotiate prices with them and they are just unwilling to give me some help about it. How do people pay for flight training? So expensive. I was very outraged. No interviewing. Nothing. They just told me “either you pay and train with us or don’t come to us and don’t call us”. Complete bs
I had a very similar experience when I talked with them. I was talking to Aeroguard simultaneously, and they were very willing to negotiate and hear me out.
Why would you think you’d be able to negotiate the price? It’s not a farmer’s market.
@@JH-in5oq in my experience, a good many schools that I’ve talked to are willing to get a bit loose on prices…
@@grahamcargle ATP is a corporation, not a small flight school.
@@Andromedon777 most colleges are price-discriminatory, where they will charge students different amounts based on their ability to pay those amounts. This method allows the institution to squeeze the most money that they possibly can out of everyone who buys their product, and it is kind of strange that ATP doesn't do that for it's students
I recommend joining one of the Militarys, I got my private pilots license first then I joined the Army and went to flight school , helicopter training, all new pilots go to helicopter training. You will start off in the TH-72 now instead of the TH-55 that I started in. You stay in the TH-72 through training. Contact, Instruments, and Combat Skills (it’s called war fighting now I think) then you go to your choice of helicopters according to your academic training grades, other wise you go to the helicopter they need pilots in. After flying 10 years in the Army, mostly IH -1H {Huey’s) and the U8F and C12D fixed wing. I got hired by American Airlines and flew 17 years for them retiring as a Captain on the 727 and 737-800. If you graduated from college I’d join the USAF, Marines, or Navy. Good luck!
Very outdated advice
This pilot career is not like before, with its good prestige and good salaries, the pilots today are just plane drivers, I am a commercial pilot and I got out of that exhausting world, I was sick of it but hey, whoever wants to be a pilot should study, The school I went to was flight safety International in Vero beach Florida, It took me a whole year from private. multi-engine, commercial and instruments, definitely the best school,
Unfortunately, I hear from many many pilots who say the same thing as you. It's a real shame, as aviation is such an incredible science.
I've heard lots of good things about training in Vero Beach. I'm looking into a newer flight school there myself. Thanks for commenting!
Exhausting in what way?
You dodged a massive bullet
That's what I'm hoping! Best wishes :)
If y’all saying that’s too fast you obviously aren’t a type a pilot personality that the big legacy carriers are looking for sorry
Wow, that's just the advice I was looking for! If you can discover my personality type and level of ability in a 10 minute video, we need to buy you some Tarot cards and crystal ball 🤣🤣
From what your saying, it sounds like ATP wasn’t willing to hold your hand, hug you, praise you for who you are, let you know how much you mean to them. That’s where ATP fell short. Shame on ATP for running a business, advertising, charging money, and having the structure to take students in from all over the country….. all kidding aside , my best wishes for you in your flying venture. Fly safe
Yeah, my current flight school gives me a solid 45 minutes of cuddling in my safe space before each flight…
What a extremely passive aggressive reply topped with a dash of fake well wishes. 👏
@Graham Cargle thank you for the video, the information was useful to me.
@@Kyle5K Thanks so much! That's my one goal!
Cry me a river
So regarding what you said about them putting you in as a student by the end of the week. Of course they will. They know not everyone will make it. But by the time you figure that out as a student they already got thousands of dollars from you as a student. Fucked up indeed.
Yeah, I think that was my biggest ick with the whole program. I have no problem with their pace and marketing, but the fact that they're willing to let you pay them, knowing that a portion of the students won't be able to handle it is just so messed up.
One guy I talked to said that out of his study group of 6, only 3 of them managed to graduate...
Thanks for the info, I was feeling funny vibes from ATP.
I'm interested in Flying but I'm going to do a discovery flight first, get my medical out the way, and find a way to take the FAA without an endorsement just to get that pressure of testing out the way and truly learn how to fly.
My main concern is all of these certifications and theory and money spent, are they even teaching the skills of flying?
I've read a few articles from Wolfgang Langewiesche and his conclusion is that if someone takes what they learn in ground school, flight school theory, they can make a mistake that can cost them their live in real life flying. He also said that fight schools feel like scholastics and people don't agree with scholastics....school and real life are two different things.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. ATP gave me weird vibes too, hahaha.
For a disclaimer, I am a nerd at heart, but I do believe that a lot of the stuff you learn in ground school is beneficial. Especially the content around protocol and engines.
If I had to go back and do it again, I would knock out my written and ground school before ever touching a plane. I would've saved SO much money had I learned more lessons on the ground about the basics of flight.
@@grahamcargle
Thank you for the reply.