As one of the flat pedal advisors I was relived to not see it end in tears ;-) I guess you were first for combined T1 + bike + T2 times, so solid proof the flat pedals really do work on the short stuff (y) Much more solid than the power pedal numbers at +-50% :S
So that’s how your transitions were so fast!! That bike leg is even more impressive with flat pedals 👏🏻 Just stumbled on to this video on my recommended, good footage catching me on the bike, I was giving it everything battling the wind on the last mile. Best of luck with the ultra! Just subscribed 👍🏻
@smooth venom the main benefit of clipless are that it allows you to sprint harder or climb more technical sections. it also keeps your feet from flying off over rock gardens on mountain bikes, as well as keeping the bike attatched to your feet while you are mid air. Clipless has a more noticeable performance/everyday benefit for mountain bikes and its foot retention vs overall power transfer. The power transfer over anything that isn't a sprint is the same for flats and clips
I have Garmin Vector 3 pedals and a Wahoo Kickr, if I record an indoor ride with both the most I ever see is a 10W difference but normally it is nearer 3W. I would definitely say what you are getting is not normal.
Sounds like Garmin are giving you the run around. Pretty sure DCRainmaker and GPLlama will expect close to parity between trainer and pedals when they do their testing.
Totally. If you're in the market for something else I swear my powertap P1's are one of the best things I've ever bought.. not available any more but they are bullet proof and I'd be happy to get the p2's.
You should expect drivetrain loses between what you measure at the pedal and the wheel, so usually the pedal reading will be slightly higher. Something is wrong with Mark's pedals as they weren't even in the ballpark let alone the claimed 1% accuracy range.
My Kickr Core and Vector 3 pedals are within 2% (both calibrated). Core reads a little more at lower power and Vectors record a little more at higher power.
I did exactly the same thing but had cages too over the flat pedal as I was on a track with lots of corners that needed sprinting out of. People thought I was mad, I won and the pedals made it work.
GCN have done a few tests on flats vs clipless and unless you're out of the saddle sprinting 5s max power, there's actually little improvement with clipless and as you said, the transitions are much faster
Those tests were about pedal smoothness not power transfer which is better with cycling shoes. Also the cycling shoes keep your feet in a good position which is more difficult with normal shoes
Yeah, as others correctly pointed out, you cannot perform at any decent level with sneakers shoes. It is all about power transfer. One slip and you will need a lot of time to recover from an injury like that, if you are lucky.
@@j.erickson8571 clearly you've never been on proper flat pedals. Only time you slip is n rock gardens if you don't keep your heels down or durIng jumps if you don't have the right technic. 2 cases that are not happening for roadies.
I had the garmin vector 3 pedals too. After similar frustrations I decided to sell them to (partially) fund the favero assiomas. They are much better in my opinion and definitely worth considering if you end up replacing the vectors like I did
I’ve done TONS of rides and races on flats vs clipless and there is zero difference unless you need to bunny hop or sprint super hard. And yes, it’s actually faster in triathlons because of the transitions.
Mark, if you end up trying a shorter distance race again, get yourself a pair of Power Grip straps for your pedals. It allows you to still use your running shoes and you get a connection to your pedals that is 90-95% of the way to a clipless pedal/shoe. I've been using them for 20+ years and they make for a super quick transition.
I have the "Favero Assioma duo" and also compared the data from them with my Wahoo Kickr V5 on a regular basis. I never had more than 1-2% difference between them. And 1-2% could be also explained because when using a clean oder dirty chain the power on the assioma pedals does not change but you would have a little less power on the Wahoo Kickr V5 since some of your power dissipates into heat as a result of the chain friction.
FWIW -- For years I have suffered with inefficiencies in pedaling, robbing me of power (despite professional bike fits); my right leg is uber efficient, creating deadspots in my left leg; the deadspots are more pronounced on the trainer. I recently switched to flat pedals and my power averages shot up. There are no deadspots when all you have to do is "mash" the pedals. This wouldn't be a path for many others to more power, but for me it was. I'll be racing in flats and running shoes this year. My Ironman days are over, so it's all short stuff now where transition times count a lot. I'm excited. This video (and comments below) further confirms my decision and soothes my apprehensions. I might also be a little excited about blowing by dudes with $500 cycling shoes. 🤪
Well done man, interestingly I run flats on my road bike (cause I do on my mountain bikes) seems like there isn't a huge difference for steady state coffee and cake rides
Hey Mark! Bumped into you randomly in random a ZWIFT race been following your content ever since. You inspired me to do the SUPER SPRINT in February not in spite of, but because of you not being there
I have the same Garmin pedals and a Kickr Core. My wife also has the Assioma pedals, so we’re pretty lucky to be able to compare all three objectively. The Assiomas read about 25-30w higher than the other two (much to her amusement), where the Vector 3 read within 5w of the Kickr Core no matter what type of effort I’m doing, sprint or steady state. Few things to check; crank lengths between bikes, spin down test on the turbo, calibrating the Vectors with the head unit literally every ride (not required on the Assiomas), and check you have fresh batteries in the Garmins…they often read low as they’re depleted. Sounds obvious, but all easy to forget. Hopefully you get them sorted! P.s. great racing! 💪
trainers should read lower as they are calculating the power at the fly wheel not the crank or point of torque. Garmin are just spouting horse crap. Assiomas are the best out there in my opinion.
The concept that clipless pedals are so much better because they allow you to pull on them too is pure BS. You NEVER pull the pedals unless you're accelerating and sprinting. Then they do help because there would be no way for anyone to keep their feet locked in. Another advantage is that you will keep your feet in an optimal fixed postion. This is great to prevent injuries if you actually have them properly fitted. Otherwise they might cause you harm. Mountain bikes can also wither gain from them or suffer immensely. Having your feet stuck is menacing in difficult terrain as you often can't release quick enough to avoid a fall. On the other hand you won't be constantly losing your pedals and making your chin bleed due to all the bumps and jumps. In transition sports like yours flat pedals are a great option. Unless you have the transition perfected you will never gain anything from changing shoes. You will loose time. And that's it. These rides are relatively short and are tempo based with no obstacles not hard accelerations. As such, the miserable watt gains from efficiency won't amount to the seconds lost changing gear.
Great to see someone “dare” to use flat pedals! There is no performance difference between flats and clip less, its just preferences. Lots of people have been drinking the clipless coolaid :)
that's not even true, it's much better for power transfer as it helps you pedal smoother, and there's no fear of slipping off the pedals / your foot shifting positions.
You are simply either misinformed or ignorant. Its way different lol. This is why people should never read the comments, you encounter people who seem plausible and with knowledge but in reality they havent got a friggin clue
@@TeddyFaceFiver1. there are multiple studies and test that show no power gain for clipless pedals vs flats. 2. Clipless pedals are more dangerous than flat pedals. 3. Clipless pedals dont let you change positions leading to pain during longer rides. 4. If you ride clipless and have to walk your bike... that sucks. So what am i misinformed about again?
I love it!! Do what works for you! Constantly challenging one self is truly leading by example!! I've been training in Taekwondo since 1982, running my own studio since 1994 and I've been riding my bicycle on the road for the last couple of years. I've definitely been inspired by your videos! Thanks so much!!
I’m just seeing this 1/23/22 (youtube suggestion). I know I’m late but still wanted to give a shout out for a great video!! A couple things I liked (besides your $10 pedals since I’m the lunatic who rode the $80 Walmart bike in a half ironman). I also appreciated the brief Garmin pedal review. What a waste of money. So glad you talked about those so I can scratch them off a future bday list. Also, so awesome of you to talk about Isabella’s race and post her fundraising link. Classy guy, Mark. Thanks again for a great video!
Most definitely the best banter on RUclips I’m hooked .love the videos and the fact you talk like a normal person who doesn’t over cook it with facts and figures I can’t understand (I’m thick) Great job keep it coming
I hope you will compete in another duathlon soon! Most people have no clue how though a duathlon truly is. Super sprint races are fun to watch/do, as you can do them more often. And what is more fun than doing a race. Right? Keep up the nice work!
I think for triathletes flat pedals make more sense as there is no efficiency loss with flat pedal as long as you are not getting out of the saddle (sprinting or climbing), things that triathletes don't have to do and the advantage that you will get in the transition will be great
I use flat pedals on my morning training sessions. It is safer commuting to the cycling circuit through city streets, mounting gutters and on/off at traffic lights through CBD. Once I am on protected enclosed road cycling circuit I can generate consistent power and torque to clipless pedals at Higher speeds. BUT....Flat pedals let me down grinding up short hills and also generating superior torque in a sprint ( the extra torque from the uplifting leg). I use canyoning shoes with flat thin soles or weightlifting shoes with flat, thin & stiff soles - both work well. Hehehehe..... now my secret training set up is out there on the You tubes. Nice video job Mark.
Genius 🤣. Garmin pedals sound as rubbish as the experience I've had with head units loosing data, freezing and the touching screen needing multiple attempts to change settings / screens.
Congrats on the great race finish and happy birthday! Love your videos and your fun banter along with the great film references and clips. Your approach to your training and videos is awesome in that it’s not so technical as others. The real life approach and your “better than average” angle is so relatable to so many people. Keep up the great work. On a side note, I’ve just purchased a Wahoo kickr v5 after being a long term outdoor only rider, triathlete, and runner. Looking forward to learning Zwift and the other apps and building a legitimate pain cave 😀. Your experience and videos have made me a believer in how much the indoor training can add to my base training and can be enjoyable as well. Thanks.
That's a nice strategy and it's good to see people on road bikes not being stuck in their "optimisation through fancier equipment" mindset :) I'd recommend straps for your pedals. No need to switch shoes, you can "clip in" while riding and still pull the pedals up for sprinting and accelerating. Fixed gear riders are doing great with them, they need a bit of training to get in smoothly though. I'm using fyxation straps and they are super durable and easy to use.
Yeah it's been tested, as long as your not sprinting at max effort or standing on your pedals flats do the job equally as good, so in the situation you found yourself in it was the best move to get the change done quickly
Hi Mark, interesting video. I'm an Ireland age-group duathlete and BTF Triathlon Coach. I use flat pedals with diagonal straps in all distances up to and including standard distance. I recommend everyone I coach to at least consider flat pedals. I only use clipless at middle distance + and might consider clipless for a hilly standard. All my PBs have been with flat pedals. Dorney is a great racing venue.
Happy birthday slightly younger old man than me. I am impressed you could peddle mash your bike at that speed. Every time I ride with the wife and I don't clip in my feet naturally try and pull up. I figured at the speed you were going I would have probably had a moment where my brain said "why is your right leg going over your top tube?" prior to some cartoon worthy epic crash. The one thing I always liked about dual's and tri's is the fact the people can be so encouraging to others in the middle of their own suffering. Congrats on the result. Good Stuff...... Oh yeah just incase, Clipped in = your peddle stroke generates power pushing down, pulling across the bottom and pulling up. Peddle Mashing = power generated on the push down.
I'm using vectors and they are pretty much on spot based on comparison with other power measuring tools and also calculators where you can enter wind, weight etc and get estimated power. What may cause such a difference is wrong crank length set in edge. If you set it shorter than it really is, it reads higher, if longer, it reads less. Just simple physics. So you can use this setting as a workaround and experiment with different crank lengths until power from vectors match your indoor trainer.
You inspired me to incorporate zwift races into my training ever since I watched your "This ONE CHANGE I made got INSTANT results | Vo2 max and FTP both UP" video. I only started zwifting/cycling consistently since 1 October, but have gone from a 1.8w/kg to a 2.3 w/kg FTP in just over a month and a half - with 2 of those increases coming after race finishes! Can't wait to get to C category and start my attempts at better than average race finishes!
Great work!!! Pedals definetely out in terms of acucracy. I would say %5 max differnece is acceptable (assuming your trainer is a top / mid tier trainer) as that allows +/- 2% on each device (aka one device is +2% and one is -2%) Re transitions - once you get used to mounting and dimounting with the shoes attached to the bike cost of time is very low (especially if you take your shoes off at same time putting on helmet). In terms of incorporating into training, having these races even in IM trianign can have a purpose especially if you can combine it as part of long training day so you are either racing fatigued or doing a long ride / run after in fatigued state.
This might sound dumb, but as a fixie commuter with a need for sartorial convenience, I can't recommend flat pedals with nylon straps, enough. Can ride the bike in any footwear, super quick to get your feet in or out, and just a quick twist for a perfect push/pull grip giving great strength when needed.
@@peteravolio2695 um yes, on a flat time trial like this there isn't really a difference. Absolutely there is a benefit to riding clipless but in a race like this all those benefits are not really needed... here is a great breakdown ruclips.net/video/KUEaN9FKGLE/видео.html
Look into a proper calibration of the pedals using a properly known weight. 20kg and measured on a great scale, I used the post office. Also coming into T2 you can bring your free leg through the pedal leg so it's in front. Ready to run and less likely to trip up.
A gold standard is to step on a scale with your bike, climb a steep hill, with relatively steady grade (in particular, no flat parts), calculate your power using an on-line calculator, then compare with the Vector data. I figure platform pedals reduce peak power around 10%, since I cannot engage both legs effectively at the same time, but has less effect near threshold.
I run flat pedals on my road bike because I’ve always run flats. I’m a commuter in a small city, stop signs and stoplights everywhere, I’m not going through the hassle of clipping in and out for any extra watt gains. I just want the multiple hand positions and the better build quality over my hybrid.
I've had some bad time with garmin recently as well. Had a watch with them that unfortunately got a cracked up screen from wearing during a cycling crash that left with me with a broken collarbone. In my head, I was thinking my sport watch getting damaged using it during a sport, they'd have some coverage. All I got back from explaining the damage to their warranty service was a link to buy a refurbished model.
For the pedals check that your crank length is set correctly on your Garmin Edge. If there’s a difference that would account for the systematic difference.
I'm racing a sprint duathlon with a transition of 150 meters. I installed flat pedals on the bike. I know I will gain a small amount of time to not have to change shoes and to be able to run the 150m with shoes instead of barefoot or socks. Race is tomorrow, can't wait to try that
I've changed all my bikes over to Raceface Chester MTB flats. If you are a quad-beast the difference is not that much. If I were going to run in something and then hop on MTB pedals I would use my Topo Athletic shoes. They have a toe box like Altras, low drop, but there is a rigid shank between the ball and heel making them more efficient on the pedal compared to an minimal trainer.
Harvey Spielberg 😂 I’m using the Favero Assioma Uno pedals for power on my road bike and they’ve been spot on. No more than 2% variance when comparing ride data between them and my Wahoo Kickr. They’re quite affordable too compared to the other options on the market.
I'm an engineer. We say, "When you make something idiot proof, God makes a better idiot". Longer story... I was at Kodak in 1998 working on single use cameras. We got a customer complaint that the view finder's LED was too bright and hurt the person's eyes. NOTE: some cameras do have the LED near the view finder going too bright. So we naturally tested that issue but saw nothing out of normal. Luckily sense we had the camera we developed the film. Almost every photo was black except at about photo 10+ you start to make out the person's nose. This idiot was looking into the flash and blasting their eye for a whole roll of film. 24 or 36 shots in a roll. God does make good idiots! You do need to give the man in the sky credit for that. LOL
I have a Tacx Neo 2T and Garmin vector 3 pedals and I also have the Favero Assioma pedals, they all stay within 5 - 6w of each other, with the favero's being the closest to the trainer. I have had all sorts of issues with the garmin vector3 's and mist say that the Assioma's are the best power pedals, there support was also awesome when I was concerned about the 8% difference between left and right, turned out to be an imbalance in me not the pedals. 😜
Clip ons can be a problem with knee injuries as only a slight bad adjustment can be a big problem and has only a slight advantage in a 10sec super sprint doing max effort. I've even have clip ons on my full suspension mountain bike though but that's because I really like the 2000watt+ kick and go when needed ( my bike frame doesn't though. ).
i dont run i am not an athlete i ride to work and casually (hoping to get fitter ?) only reason i saw your channel was because i bought a fennix 7 off my son and now like watching numbers change🤣 but ... i like your presentation and humour and tidbits of relevemt information. bravo 😀
I have Vector 3 pedals and they are accurate. Based on what you showed, I guess your pedals miss zero offset as I see them capture the same up snd down trend wrt Wahoo. Also, make sure you follow the procesure as mentioned by Garmin: wake up the pedals and spin a few times, maybe ride for 5 min and then, left pedal at 6 o'clock and bike straight up and hit calibrate. Make sure you have input the correct crank length as well. I'd say, pedal based power meters are the most accurate type as they sense the power right at the source (your shoes).
Usually, power-pedals track higher then an indoor trainer, IF you have dual sided pedals. If you have single sided, you are screwed. If there is a discrepancy in your dual sided pedals try the following : -update the firmware of your pedals - get a really good torque wrench and mount the pedals with Anti-Seize for cars(liqui moly for example) and set the newton's on your torque wrench just a tat bit higher than specified -set the correct crank length for your pedas -do a calibration of the pedals -get on your trainer and ride for 10min -do a spindown of your Wahoo trainrr -test again The pedals now, should track about 1-5% higher then your trainer.
The inconsistencies are caused by too low of a torque setting your pedals, because the strain gauge inside the pedal axis isn't properly pre-stretched. This can throw of the measuring completely.
If you are still experiencing issues it could be due to your fancy bike. It's obvious that your bike is flexing like crazy, because it's missing a diamond triangle frame. This causes the frame to flex, which creates parasitic torque on your pedals and throws of the power reading. Less flex->less parasitic drag->better power reading
250 watts for less than 30km feel the same on either flats of clipless. Xc shoes with covers and flat pedals is a great combo for sprints and half duathlons.
@Mak Lewis Yes I think thats spot on with making your IRL race like a Zwift race, I do it everytime now and it just clams me down like i'm back in the pain cave
A video online right when i finished work for the pre zwift coffee that´s nice :) your chanel is a big reason why i transitioned from just strength training to more cardio and strength training. So thanks from me and my doctor on this point
Measuring stuff is just like that. Car guys will know that you can't even compare the numbers from the same dyno installed in two different places. If all you did was measure off the pedals (and didn't have your preconceptions of what zwift says) then you'd be fine. Whats way more important for measuring is consistency relative to the instrument.
I had garmin Vector 3- absolutely useless. I threw them out in the end and got Assioma Duo’s -they are amazing and very accurate- within about 5 watts of my wahoo trainer and quarq power meter. I actually live near you if you want to drop me a message and test them out for a day.
Hi Mark. Quite frankly Garmin are spinning you off. Assuming you calibrated the Garmins first (correct crank length/ zero offset etc) There’s no way you should have that much discrepancy. To prove this - if you can get another set of pedals from a fellow cyclist that they know are accurate and compare that to KICKR - if they are within 3% of each other then you know the Garmins are gash (which to be honest everyone knows already!). Then get some Assioma Uno/Duo. PS: overlay your data on the same graph as well.
If you are looking for more power transfer while on flat pedals you can try Vaude TVL Asfalt Tech that have a one way bending carbon sole. Though I guess it defeats the point of improving your transitions if you still need to change shoes.
Nice one!!! Specially about the clip-on vs flat pedals. I am planning to do exactly that at my next sprint tri for exactly the same reason. For me the benefit of clip on pedals is lost with that extra time in transition is taken into account. I can see your lady wife keeps you 'grounded'. Mine also keeps me in the real world 🤣😂
Something is off for sure. I have the Vector 3’s, a stages left side and two kickers. It took me a bit to get all of them reading the same. New batteries, proper spin downs on the kickers (advanced spin downs as well), then zeroing the pedals and the crank arm. Now I get matching data. I’m going to give it another comparison using erg mode. For some reason it never occurred to me to use this mode to test.
Flat peddals helps keep you seated on the saddle and down force pedalling is better too. I have co riders that are strong on flats before going clips. Effeciency wise, spinning and position are all in clipless.
Unless you are riding in a peloton, where missing a pedal stroke could be catastrophic, flat pedals makes a lot of sense. You don’t gain a whole lot, if anything, on the “up stroke”, and you can shift your feet around, and avoid injuries to your feet/angles and knees.
You can never compare power pedals etc. Sometimes one branded power meter reads different to another same branded meter. Its all about consistency. Choose one power meter such as the pedals and only use this as a measure against your FTP. Comparing power meters to one another will just wreck your head. Its all just a number to train to and as long as you use one meter and its consistent you shouldn't care. Power also changes depending on where your meter is. ie pedals versus crank versus chainring versus hub
I’m really surprised to hear Garmin’s response on your pedals. In my experience, they’ve had rather remarkable customer service, and that response is BS. I have a Stages crank-based power meter, and it reads about 8 watts higher than my trainer, which makes sense, given that my trainer is reading after drivetrain losses. The idea that your power pedals would read more than a 50 watt difference from a calibrated trainer is insane and makes them useless. It might be worth calling them back and seeing if you can talk to someone else, because your pedals clearly don’t work.
Regarding the pedals: Do a ride on zwift without ERG mode and compare the two wattage numbers. I agree that ERG mode should require the same input from the pedals as stated in Zwift, but i would check without ERG mode just to eliminate that. Also make sure to calibrate your trainer, warm it up with ten minutes of riding, and then do a calibration within zwift. God luck!
Pretty certain Alan Murchison won the World AG Duathlon champs without putting bike shoes on.... although from memory he had some fancy carbon toe clip thing not flat pedals. Well done.
Great content!!! Go ahead a push the vector 3 pedals in the trash and if you stay with the Garmin family look at the Rally series. Let them youngins know that Nixon would have recorded the whole event with a Spielberg like quality.
Looks like some people already commented here about Garmin Vector. Power should read higher directly from pedals relative to the trainer, the trainer recording power at the hub. Pedals where you apply the force is much more accurate. I’ve read to typically expect to lose about 4% power from pedals to the hub. So something 100% fishy with them pedals. 👍
I have had good experience with My Assioma pedals aligning well with my Wahoo Kickr V5. Did dual recording and found good correlation and accuracy. Mark, the only way Garmin could be right is if you have a trainer that is severely out of calibration (or your pedals).
You should buy some Assioma Duo pedals. I hear nothing but good reviews and I love mine. Dcrainmaker also has reviews on them comparing the data to other power meters.
I think for such a short distance you are ok as you win more in the transition than you lose during the ride. But for a longer ride I’m sure it wouldn’t work out as good
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Mountain bike flats aren't pretty on a carbon fibre rocket ship...but if it works, it works 🤣
As one of the flat pedal advisors I was relived to not see it end in tears ;-) I guess you were first for combined T1 + bike + T2 times, so solid proof the flat pedals really do work on the short stuff (y) Much more solid than the power pedal numbers at +-50% :S
Not sure I can ride flats any more. I even had to put SPDs on my Brompton! 🤣
Carbon fibre flat pedals are the new big thing 😎
At least you didn’t use cheap plastic flat pedals proper metal ones with spikes makes huge difference
It’s a good way to improve your transition form.
So that’s how your transitions were so fast!!
That bike leg is even more impressive with flat pedals 👏🏻
Just stumbled on to this video on my recommended, good footage catching me on the bike, I was giving it everything battling the wind on the last mile. Best of luck with the ultra! Just subscribed 👍🏻
@smooth venom the main benefit of clipless are that it allows you to sprint harder or climb more technical sections. it also keeps your feet from flying off over rock gardens on mountain bikes, as well as keeping the bike attatched to your feet while you are mid air. Clipless has a more noticeable performance/everyday benefit for mountain bikes and its foot retention vs overall power transfer. The power transfer over anything that isn't a sprint is the same for flats and clips
@@ameraldas3641 they also put your feet in precisely the right position every time, rather thann having to shift them around and find it.
I have Garmin Vector 3 pedals and a Wahoo Kickr, if I record an indoor ride with both the most I ever see is a 10W difference but normally it is nearer 3W. I would definitely say what you are getting is not normal.
same here.
Likewise, vector 3 and kickrbike, spot on!
Same here, my Garmin Rally pedals measure very closely to my Wahoo Kickr. Sounds like something isn't right IMO.
Same. Virtually bang on.
Sounds like Garmin are giving you the run around. Pretty sure DCRainmaker and GPLlama will expect close to parity between trainer and pedals when they do their testing.
Totally. If you're in the market for something else I swear my powertap P1's are one of the best things I've ever bought.. not available any more but they are bullet proof and I'd be happy to get the p2's.
You should expect drivetrain loses between what you measure at the pedal and the wheel, so usually the pedal reading will be slightly higher. Something is wrong with Mark's pedals as they weren't even in the ballpark let alone the claimed 1% accuracy range.
My Kickr Core and Vector 3 pedals are within 2% (both calibrated). Core reads a little more at lower power and Vectors record a little more at higher power.
my more power focussed other half gave up on garmin vector pedals and has the Assioma pedals now which he says are more reliable.
I did exactly the same thing but had cages too over the flat pedal as I was on a track with lots of corners that needed sprinting out of. People thought I was mad, I won and the pedals made it work.
GCN have done a few tests on flats vs clipless and unless you're out of the saddle sprinting 5s max power, there's actually little improvement with clipless and as you said, the transitions are much faster
Not just GCN, more importantly there are a number of actual scientific papers too
Those tests were about pedal smoothness not power transfer which is better with cycling shoes. Also the cycling shoes keep your feet in a good position which is more difficult with normal shoes
Ya but I'm sure bike shoes vs running sneakers there is a difference in terms of feet endurance and power transfer
Yeah, as others correctly pointed out, you cannot perform at any decent level with sneakers shoes. It is all about power transfer. One slip and you will need a lot of time to recover from an injury like that, if you are lucky.
@@j.erickson8571 clearly you've never been on proper flat pedals. Only time you slip is n rock gardens if you don't keep your heels down or durIng jumps if you don't have the right technic. 2 cases that are not happening for roadies.
I had the garmin vector 3 pedals too. After similar frustrations I decided to sell them to (partially) fund the favero assiomas. They are much better in my opinion and definitely worth considering if you end up replacing the vectors like I did
I’ve done TONS of rides and races on flats vs clipless and there is zero difference unless you need to bunny hop or sprint super hard. And yes, it’s actually faster in triathlons because of the transitions.
Mark, if you end up trying a shorter distance race again, get yourself a pair of Power Grip straps for your pedals. It allows you to still use your running shoes and you get a connection to your pedals that is 90-95% of the way to a clipless pedal/shoe. I've been using them for 20+ years and they make for a super quick transition.
I have the "Favero Assioma duo" and also compared the data from them with my Wahoo Kickr V5 on a regular basis. I never had more than 1-2% difference between them. And 1-2% could be also explained because when using a clean oder dirty chain the power on the assioma pedals does not change but you would have a little less power on the Wahoo Kickr V5 since some of your power dissipates into heat as a result of the chain friction.
I have the Favero Assioma too, they’ve been nothing but awesome.
FWIW -- For years I have suffered with inefficiencies in pedaling, robbing me of power (despite professional bike fits); my right leg is uber efficient, creating deadspots in my left leg; the deadspots are more pronounced on the trainer. I recently switched to flat pedals and my power averages shot up. There are no deadspots when all you have to do is "mash" the pedals. This wouldn't be a path for many others to more power, but for me it was. I'll be racing in flats and running shoes this year. My Ironman days are over, so it's all short stuff now where transition times count a lot. I'm excited. This video (and comments below) further confirms my decision and soothes my apprehensions. I might also be a little excited about blowing by dudes with $500 cycling shoes. 🤪
Well done man, interestingly I run flats on my road bike (cause I do on my mountain bikes) seems like there isn't a huge difference for steady state coffee and cake rides
Need more guest commentary from Harvey!!
Hey Mark! Bumped into you randomly in random a ZWIFT race been following your content ever since. You inspired me to do the SUPER SPRINT in February not in spite of, but because of you not being there
They are great fun! Good luck!
I have the same Garmin pedals and a Kickr Core. My wife also has the Assioma pedals, so we’re pretty lucky to be able to compare all three objectively. The Assiomas read about 25-30w higher than the other two (much to her amusement), where the Vector 3 read within 5w of the Kickr Core no matter what type of effort I’m doing, sprint or steady state.
Few things to check; crank lengths between bikes, spin down test on the turbo, calibrating the Vectors with the head unit literally every ride (not required on the Assiomas), and check you have fresh batteries in the Garmins…they often read low as they’re depleted. Sounds obvious, but all easy to forget. Hopefully you get them sorted!
P.s. great racing! 💪
trainers should read lower as they are calculating the power at the fly wheel not the crank or point of torque. Garmin are just spouting horse crap. Assiomas are the best out there in my opinion.
The concept that clipless pedals are so much better because they allow you to pull on them too is pure BS. You NEVER pull the pedals unless you're accelerating and sprinting. Then they do help because there would be no way for anyone to keep their feet locked in. Another advantage is that you will keep your feet in an optimal fixed postion. This is great to prevent injuries if you actually have them properly fitted. Otherwise they might cause you harm. Mountain bikes can also wither gain from them or suffer immensely. Having your feet stuck is menacing in difficult terrain as you often can't release quick enough to avoid a fall. On the other hand you won't be constantly losing your pedals and making your chin bleed due to all the bumps and jumps.
In transition sports like yours flat pedals are a great option. Unless you have the transition perfected you will never gain anything from changing shoes. You will loose time. And that's it. These rides are relatively short and are tempo based with no obstacles not hard accelerations. As such, the miserable watt gains from efficiency won't amount to the seconds lost changing gear.
Great to see someone “dare” to use flat pedals!
There is no performance difference between flats and clip less, its just preferences.
Lots of people have been drinking the clipless coolaid :)
that's not even true, it's much better for power transfer as it helps you pedal smoother, and there's no fear of slipping off the pedals / your foot shifting positions.
Factually inaccurate
You are simply either misinformed or ignorant. Its way different lol. This is why people should never read the comments, you encounter people who seem plausible and with knowledge but in reality they havent got a friggin clue
@@TeddyFaceFiver1. there are multiple studies and test that show no power gain for clipless pedals vs flats.
2. Clipless pedals are more dangerous than flat pedals.
3. Clipless pedals dont let you change positions leading to pain during longer rides.
4. If you ride clipless and have to walk your bike... that sucks.
So what am i misinformed about again?
Appreciate the metric units used in the video Mark
Got to keep everybody happy 😃
I love it!! Do what works for you! Constantly challenging one self is truly leading by example!! I've been training in Taekwondo since 1982, running my own studio since 1994 and I've been riding my bicycle on the road for the last couple of years. I've definitely been inspired by your videos! Thanks so much!!
I’m just seeing this 1/23/22 (youtube suggestion). I know I’m late but still wanted to give a shout out for a great video!! A couple things I liked (besides your $10 pedals since I’m the lunatic who rode the $80 Walmart bike in a half ironman). I also appreciated the brief Garmin pedal review. What a waste of money. So glad you talked about those so I can scratch them off a future bday list. Also, so awesome of you to talk about Isabella’s race and post her fundraising link. Classy guy, Mark. Thanks again for a great video!
Most definitely the best banter on RUclips I’m hooked .love the videos and the fact you talk like a normal person who doesn’t over cook it with facts and figures I can’t understand (I’m thick) Great job keep it coming
I hope you will compete in another duathlon soon! Most people have no clue how though a duathlon truly is. Super sprint races are fun to watch/do, as you can do them more often. And what is more fun than doing a race. Right? Keep up the nice work!
I think for triathletes flat pedals make more sense as there is no efficiency loss with flat pedal as long as you are not getting out of the saddle (sprinting or climbing), things that triathletes don't have to do and the advantage that you will get in the transition will be great
I use flat pedals on my morning training sessions. It is safer commuting to the cycling circuit through city streets, mounting gutters and on/off at traffic lights through CBD. Once I am on protected enclosed road cycling circuit I can generate consistent power and torque to clipless pedals at Higher speeds.
BUT....Flat pedals let me down grinding up short hills and also generating superior torque in a sprint ( the extra torque from the uplifting leg).
I use canyoning shoes with flat thin soles or weightlifting shoes with flat, thin & stiff soles - both work well.
Hehehehe..... now my secret training set up is out there on the You tubes. Nice video job Mark.
Genius 🤣. Garmin pedals sound as rubbish as the experience I've had with head units loosing data, freezing and the touching screen needing multiple attempts to change settings / screens.
Congrats on the great race finish and happy birthday! Love your videos and your fun banter along with the great film references and clips. Your approach to your training and videos is awesome in that it’s not so technical as others. The real life approach and your “better than average” angle is so relatable to so many people. Keep up the great work.
On a side note, I’ve just purchased a Wahoo kickr v5 after being a long term outdoor only rider, triathlete, and runner. Looking forward to learning Zwift and the other apps and building a legitimate pain cave 😀. Your experience and videos have made me a believer in how much the indoor training can add to my base training and can be enjoyable as well. Thanks.
That's a nice strategy and it's good to see people on road bikes not being stuck in their "optimisation through fancier equipment" mindset :)
I'd recommend straps for your pedals. No need to switch shoes, you can "clip in" while riding and still pull the pedals up for sprinting and accelerating. Fixed gear riders are doing great with them, they need a bit of training to get in smoothly though. I'm using fyxation straps and they are super durable and easy to use.
Loved the video self effacing no BS a great achievement onwards and upwards thank you..
Yeah it's been tested, as long as your not sprinting at max effort or standing on your pedals flats do the job equally as good, so in the situation you found yourself in it was the best move to get the change done quickly
Two things super funny - Harvey Spielberg and how you approached that little corner on the bike lol
Hi Mark, interesting video. I'm an Ireland age-group duathlete and BTF Triathlon Coach. I use flat pedals with diagonal straps in all distances up to and including standard distance. I recommend everyone I coach to at least consider flat pedals. I only use clipless at middle distance + and might consider clipless for a hilly standard. All my PBs have been with flat pedals. Dorney is a great racing venue.
Happy birthday slightly younger old man than me. I am impressed you could peddle mash your bike at that speed. Every time I ride with the wife and I don't clip in my feet naturally try and pull up. I figured at the speed you were going I would have probably had a moment where my brain said "why is your right leg going over your top tube?" prior to some cartoon worthy epic crash. The one thing I always liked about dual's and tri's is the fact the people can be so encouraging to others in the middle of their own suffering. Congrats on the result. Good Stuff...... Oh yeah just incase, Clipped in = your peddle stroke generates power pushing down, pulling across the bottom and pulling up. Peddle Mashing = power generated on the push down.
Happy Birthday you for some time this week and to Isabella. Another entertaining video - thanks Mark.
I'm using vectors and they are pretty much on spot based on comparison with other power measuring tools and also calculators where you can enter wind, weight etc and get estimated power. What may cause such a difference is wrong crank length set in edge. If you set it shorter than it really is, it reads higher, if longer, it reads less. Just simple physics. So you can use this setting as a workaround and experiment with different crank lengths until power from vectors match your indoor trainer.
You inspired me to incorporate zwift races into my training ever since I watched your "This ONE CHANGE I made got INSTANT results | Vo2 max and FTP both UP" video. I only started zwifting/cycling consistently since 1 October, but have gone from a 1.8w/kg to a 2.3 w/kg FTP in just over a month and a half - with 2 of those increases coming after race finishes! Can't wait to get to C category and start my attempts at better than average race finishes!
I love races for pushing you to new heights. Great to hear the jumps you've made!
Great work!!!
Pedals definetely out in terms of acucracy. I would say %5 max differnece is acceptable (assuming your trainer is a top / mid tier trainer) as that allows +/- 2% on each device (aka one device is +2% and one is -2%)
Re transitions - once you get used to mounting and dimounting with the shoes attached to the bike cost of time is very low (especially if you take your shoes off at same time putting on helmet).
In terms of incorporating into training, having these races even in IM trianign can have a purpose especially if you can combine it as part of long training day so you are either racing fatigued or doing a long ride / run after in fatigued state.
This might sound dumb, but as a fixie commuter with a need for sartorial convenience, I can't recommend flat pedals with nylon straps, enough. Can ride the bike in any footwear, super quick to get your feet in or out, and just a quick twist for a perfect push/pull grip giving great strength when needed.
flats are great, a good pair can be just as good as being clipped in with the exception of during a hard sprint or standing uphill climbing...
Ummm, no
@@peteravolio2695 um yes, on a flat time trial like this there isn't really a difference. Absolutely there is a benefit to riding clipless but in a race like this all those benefits are not really needed... here is a great breakdown ruclips.net/video/KUEaN9FKGLE/видео.html
Look into a proper calibration of the pedals using a properly known weight. 20kg and measured on a great scale, I used the post office.
Also coming into T2 you can bring your free leg through the pedal leg so it's in front. Ready to run and less likely to trip up.
Congratulations on the race! I was set to get the Garmin Vectors until today, thanks for taking one for the team with that purchase!
Standby for wahoo power pedal dispatch for you to try/test 😂👍🏻. Another great video again.
A gold standard is to step on a scale with your bike, climb a steep hill, with relatively steady grade (in particular, no flat parts), calculate your power using an on-line calculator, then compare with the Vector data. I figure platform pedals reduce peak power around 10%, since I cannot engage both legs effectively at the same time, but has less effect near threshold.
Hasn’t that up stroke thing been proven to be bollocks?
I run flat pedals on my road bike because I’ve always run flats. I’m a commuter in a small city, stop signs and stoplights everywhere, I’m not going through the hassle of clipping in and out for any extra watt gains. I just want the multiple hand positions and the better build quality over my hybrid.
Good to meet u Mark in the bike pen just before the race and have a 5 min chat. Glad the flat pedals strategy worked 👍
Hi Andy - Sorry, should have got your name - I'd have given you a shout out 😁 Hope you had a good race 👍
I've had some bad time with garmin recently as well. Had a watch with them that unfortunately got a cracked up screen from wearing during a cycling crash that left with me with a broken collarbone. In my head, I was thinking my sport watch getting damaged using it during a sport, they'd have some coverage. All I got back from explaining the damage to their warranty service was a link to buy a refurbished model.
For the pedals check that your crank length is set correctly on your Garmin Edge. If there’s a difference that would account for the systematic difference.
My new fav fitness channel - brilliant content
I'm racing a sprint duathlon with a transition of 150 meters. I installed flat pedals on the bike. I know I will gain a small amount of time to not have to change shoes and to be able to run the 150m with shoes instead of barefoot or socks. Race is tomorrow, can't wait to try that
I've changed all my bikes over to Raceface Chester MTB flats. If you are a quad-beast the difference is not that much. If I were going to run in something and then hop on MTB pedals I would use my Topo Athletic shoes. They have a toe box like Altras, low drop, but there is a rigid shank between the ball and heel making them more efficient on the pedal compared to an minimal trainer.
Well done mate, great result. Glad you got the jelly legs sorted, Chapeau.
Harvey Spielberg 😂 I’m using the Favero Assioma Uno pedals for power on my road bike and they’ve been spot on. No more than 2% variance when comparing ride data between them and my Wahoo Kickr. They’re quite affordable too compared to the other options on the market.
I'm an engineer. We say, "When you make something idiot proof, God makes a better idiot".
Longer story... I was at Kodak in 1998 working on single use cameras. We got a customer complaint that the view finder's LED was too bright and hurt the person's eyes. NOTE: some cameras do have the LED near the view finder going too bright. So we naturally tested that issue but saw nothing out of normal.
Luckily sense we had the camera we developed the film. Almost every photo was black except at about photo 10+ you start to make out the person's nose.
This idiot was looking into the flash and blasting their eye for a whole roll of film. 24 or 36 shots in a roll. God does make good idiots! You do need to give the man in the sky credit for that. LOL
HAHAHA holy shit!!
Like the aforementioned wazzock, I found that very illuminating ;)
I have a Tacx Neo 2T and Garmin vector 3 pedals and I also have the Favero Assioma pedals, they all stay within 5 - 6w of each other, with the favero's being the closest to the trainer. I have had all sorts of issues with the garmin vector3 's and mist say that the Assioma's are the best power pedals, there support was also awesome when I was concerned about the 8% difference between left and right, turned out to be an imbalance in me not the pedals. 😜
Clip ons can be a problem with knee injuries as only a slight bad adjustment can be a big problem and has only a slight advantage in a 10sec super sprint doing max effort. I've even have clip ons on my full suspension mountain bike though but that's because I really like the 2000watt+ kick and go when needed ( my bike frame doesn't though. ).
2KW? Umm...go pro.Haha
i dont run
i am not an athlete
i ride to work and casually (hoping to get fitter ?)
only reason i saw your channel was because i bought a fennix 7 off my son and now like watching numbers change🤣
but ... i like your presentation and humour and tidbits of relevemt information.
bravo 😀
You really crack me up with your commentary😂
Thanks for the great video once again Mark.
I have Vector 3 pedals and they are accurate. Based on what you showed, I guess your pedals miss zero offset as I see them capture the same up snd down trend wrt Wahoo. Also, make sure you follow the procesure as mentioned by Garmin: wake up the pedals and spin a few times, maybe ride for 5 min and then, left pedal at 6 o'clock and bike straight up and hit calibrate. Make sure you have input the correct crank length as well. I'd say, pedal based power meters are the most accurate type as they sense the power right at the source (your shoes).
If you don't want to change shoes during the race, and the flats doesn't feel too good maybe try pedals with straps or with a cage, hope that helped.
Usually, power-pedals track higher then an indoor trainer, IF you have dual sided pedals.
If you have single sided, you are screwed.
If there is a discrepancy in your dual sided pedals try the following :
-update the firmware of your pedals
- get a really good torque wrench and mount the pedals with Anti-Seize for cars(liqui moly for example) and set the newton's on your torque wrench just a tat bit higher than specified
-set the correct crank length for your pedas
-do a calibration of the pedals
-get on your trainer and ride for 10min
-do a spindown of your Wahoo trainrr
-test again
The pedals now, should track about 1-5% higher then your trainer.
The inconsistencies are caused by too low of a torque setting your pedals, because the strain gauge inside the pedal axis isn't properly pre-stretched.
This can throw of the measuring completely.
If you are still experiencing issues it could be due to your fancy bike.
It's obvious that your bike is flexing like crazy, because it's missing a diamond triangle frame.
This causes the frame to flex, which creates parasitic torque on your pedals and throws of the power reading.
Less flex->less parasitic drag->better power reading
250 watts for less than 30km feel the same on either flats of clipless. Xc shoes with covers and flat pedals is a great combo for sprints and half duathlons.
One of my favourite videos of yours!! 👍👏
@Mak Lewis Yes I think thats spot on with making your IRL race like a Zwift race, I do it everytime now and it just clams me down like i'm back in the pain cave
A video online right when i finished work for the pre zwift coffee that´s nice :) your chanel is a big reason why i transitioned from just strength training to more cardio and strength training. So thanks from me and my doctor on this point
Very cool!!! I have yet to try a duathlon. This makes me want to give it a shot!
Measuring stuff is just like that. Car guys will know that you can't even compare the numbers from the same dyno installed in two different places. If all you did was measure off the pedals (and didn't have your preconceptions of what zwift says) then you'd be fine. Whats way more important for measuring is consistency relative to the instrument.
I had garmin Vector 3- absolutely useless. I threw them out in the end and got Assioma Duo’s -they are amazing and very accurate- within about 5 watts of my wahoo trainer and quarq power meter.
I actually live near you if you want to drop me a message and test them out for a day.
Excellent job mang on 3rd place. As usual, funny as hell! Love the dialog mang.
Hi Mark. Quite frankly Garmin are spinning you off. Assuming you calibrated the Garmins first (correct crank length/ zero offset etc) There’s no way you should have that much discrepancy. To prove this - if you can get another set of pedals from a fellow cyclist that they know are accurate and compare that to KICKR - if they are within 3% of each other then you know the Garmins are gash (which to be honest everyone knows already!). Then get some Assioma Uno/Duo. PS: overlay your data on the same graph as well.
If you are looking for more power transfer while on flat pedals you can try Vaude TVL Asfalt Tech that have a one way bending carbon sole. Though I guess it defeats the point of improving your transitions if you still need to change shoes.
If the bike leg is short enough it makes sense to use flats. I've had some interesting results with that strategy on short races.
Consider buying a shallow rim front wheel for use when it's windy (20 kph or more) you'll feel more in control. Great videos.
Nice one!!! Specially about the clip-on vs flat pedals. I am planning to do exactly that at my next sprint tri for exactly the same reason. For me the benefit of clip on pedals is lost with that extra time in transition is taken into account. I can see your lady wife keeps you 'grounded'. Mine also keeps me in the real world 🤣😂
Something is off for sure. I have the Vector 3’s, a stages left side and two kickers. It took me a bit to get all of them reading the same. New batteries, proper spin downs on the kickers (advanced spin downs as well), then zeroing the pedals and the crank arm. Now I get matching data. I’m going to give it another comparison using erg mode. For some reason it never occurred to me to use this mode to test.
Flat peddals helps keep you seated on the saddle and down force pedalling is better too. I have co riders that are strong on flats before going clips. Effeciency wise, spinning and position are all in clipless.
Love the jokes and race analysis videos! Keep up the good work
Unless you are riding in a peloton, where missing a pedal stroke could be catastrophic, flat pedals makes a lot of sense. You don’t gain a whole lot, if anything, on the “up stroke”, and you can shift your feet around, and avoid injuries to your feet/angles and knees.
You can never compare power pedals etc. Sometimes one branded power meter reads different to another same branded meter. Its all about consistency. Choose one power meter such as the pedals and only use this as a measure against your FTP. Comparing power meters to one another will just wreck your head. Its all just a number to train to and as long as you use one meter and its consistent you shouldn't care.
Power also changes depending on where your meter is. ie pedals versus crank versus chainring versus hub
I use the assioma pedals and did the same thing, they are within a couple watts of each other, much better than the garmins from what i'v seen
I’m really surprised to hear Garmin’s response on your pedals. In my experience, they’ve had rather remarkable customer service, and that response is BS. I have a Stages crank-based power meter, and it reads about 8 watts higher than my trainer, which makes sense, given that my trainer is reading after drivetrain losses. The idea that your power pedals would read more than a 50 watt difference from a calibrated trainer is insane and makes them useless. It might be worth calling them back and seeing if you can talk to someone else, because your pedals clearly don’t work.
Regarding the pedals: Do a ride on zwift without ERG mode and compare the two wattage numbers. I agree that ERG mode should require the same input from the pedals as stated in Zwift, but i would check without ERG mode just to eliminate that.
Also make sure to calibrate your trainer, warm it up with ten minutes of riding, and then do a calibration within zwift.
God luck!
What about those cage style pedals? Easy and fast transitions but also more power on pedals due to pulling as well as pushing.
Pretty baller result for the sprint Mark, well above average!
Your in good shape buddy. 👍🏼
Doing a proper rowing race at Dorney is a mad experience
Happy birthday, Mark! 🍻
Happy birthday, congrats on the race!
Love it!!! Great bike ride!! Great video as per usual!
Pretty certain Alan Murchison won the World AG Duathlon champs without putting bike shoes on.... although from memory he had some fancy carbon toe clip thing not flat pedals. Well done.
Disobedient legs :-) cracking me up hahaaa
So this is how I felt about my first sprint triathlon. I got 4th in my age group because colorado is full of super humans.
Congrats on the 3rd place Mark and Happy Birthday!
love the 3/4 ers man!
My Vector 3 and indoor trainer are very close match and never have gave me a problem for the last 3 to 4 years.
Great content!!! Go ahead a push the vector 3 pedals in the trash and if you stay with the Garmin family look at the Rally series. Let them youngins know that Nixon would have recorded the whole event with a Spielberg like quality.
Looks like some people already commented here about Garmin Vector. Power should read higher directly from pedals relative to the trainer, the trainer recording power at the hub. Pedals where you apply the force is much more accurate. I’ve read to typically expect to lose about 4% power from pedals to the hub. So something 100% fishy with them pedals. 👍
I have had good experience with My Assioma pedals aligning well with my Wahoo Kickr V5. Did dual recording and found good correlation and accuracy. Mark, the only way Garmin could be right is if you have a trainer that is severely out of calibration (or your pedals).
Get a set of the favero assioma pedals. spot on
Good video, very funny and good times as well
You should buy some Assioma Duo pedals. I hear nothing but good reviews and I love mine. Dcrainmaker also has reviews on them comparing the data to other power meters.
Really enjoy your high quality videos Mark, what an underrated channel glad that I stumbled upon it. Cheers
I think for such a short distance you are ok as you win more in the transition than you lose during the ride. But for a longer ride I’m sure it wouldn’t work out as good