Why Gas Boilers Are Still The Most Popular Choice
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Martyn Bridges from Worcester Bosch Group returns to talk about the future of gas boilers with Roger.
Worcester Bosch Boilers
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Worcester Bosch Heat Pumps
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A heat pump is a relatively new technology in the UK although they are widely used in Scandinavia and many parts of Europe where there is an abundance of renewably sourced electricity.
A heat pump takes energy from outside and transfers it into heat to be circulated around a heating and hot water system.
A heat pump uses electricity to run the components of a heat pump, principally a fan, compressor and circulating pumps to transfer the energy from the heat source into the heat sink or heating system.
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What an absolute load of ... common sense! So many myths busted in this presentation, this deserves a 30 minute slot on national TV to help edumicate the public at large. Brilliant !!!
Lets wait for the new scandal of Tory MP's who have shares in heat pumps! 🧐 🤝
And you think it'll only be tories, don't forget the expenses scandal, labour MP's out performed every one in that scandal.
@@nigelmitchell351 no they didn't.
@@engleblerthumferlumpadinck6536
Oh yes they did, under a labour government and Labour speaker, Gorbals Mick tried to smother it ?
Illsey, Devine, Chaytor, Morely and Mc Shane all sleazy snouts in the trough labour MPs.
Check any party with green policy where there funding comes from , be a big shock when zip opens ,
No its Tory MPs wife/husband who as a company which sells those credits and other MP will be working for one of those heat pump company in 3 yrs time, Another MP will be partner for the investment funds company invested in the hear pump company ... haha
I keep reading that for a heat pump to work efficiently most houses will need to greatly upgrade their insulation. Wouldn't it be a good idea to concentrate on insulating houses rather pushing heat pumps? This itself would reduce the amount of gas used and Co2 produced and must be done anyway. Also all new housing should be built to higher insulation standards. Maybe the same as Scandinavia. Or do politicians have shares in heat pump companies?
That’s not true actually if you just get ductless air to air systems. The issue arises when you try to replace a conventional boiler with a heat pump boiler.
Heat pumps work more efficiently that gas&oil and that's regardless of a house's insulation.
@michaelmayo3127 wrong , you will never get an uninsulated house warm with a ashp
We have just replaced our gas boiler , to many horror stories about heat pumps for me to go that route , we have a heat only boiler linked to a large thermal store with feed in from our wood burner and spare power from the solar PV via a I boost , this give options and control over how we heat the house and get hot water through the different seasons of the year
Very interesting. I can buy absolutely every part for my second hand 25 year old Baxi Solo 2 (and have bought many to nurse it along) and I think they are all OEM or Baxi made.
Yes!
Is there a better longer lasting, more reliable thermal couple? Seems like it's the weak link?
Please advise :(
Just got my first house and it has a 16yrs old system boiler (town house, 9radiators, water tank)
Should I replace the boiler? What size? Which make and model? What size?! Smart thermo? Opentherm? Etc
Confused with all this.
Has there been any mass resonance testing if we're going to have this many heat pumps? They're big, powerful fans and we've learned the hard way about other resonance problems, from "sick building syndrome" to total collapse.
I live in a small courtyard with back-to-back houses. If we all had heat pumps not only would there be noticeable noise but that's just a nuisance. Resonance can be far more than a nuisance and all the plans and models in the world may not replicate it accurately. How in the hell is this going to work with urban density as high as it is? The entire bloody neighbourhood will be vibrating!
@Defectiveresistor
It was AC made me think of it because the resonance from AC units was identified as a cause of SBS.
But we still don't have much in the way of domestic AC in the UK. I've only ever worked in one office that had it and have never come across it in a domestic setting. There's a massive difference for that reason; everyone has heating but no-one has AC, and countries where AC is the norm tend to have different housing patterns.
Are the two commensurate? I'm not being chippy, I genuinely don't know if they're equivalent. The AC units I've experience of were more like fan heaters in each individual office, only significantly larger and louder. But it was there to keep the computers happy, not the humans, so I don't know how it compares.
@Defectiveresistor
Very true, SBS is a blanket term for many things - sorry, I should've been clearer.
I can't find either of the books that cite it, but iirc it wasn't the fan blades, it was the motorised housing unit on top of the building causing the resonance. But this was way back in the 60's and of course AC has moved on.
The reason I separate domestic from all other uses is that shops, restaurants etc have a much higher level of background noise during operating hours and some of that must act as a dampener in the same way someone breaking the marching rhythm will dampen a bridge. So what is the effect at night, with no other (or very little) background noise in a high-density urban neighbourhood?
AC is definitely the best comparator tho and I didn't think of that because I iz a dumb. Perhaps people get used to it so it just becomes background noise and regardless, the resonance issue must be similar.
I would guess we are going to move away from a one-size-fits-all to tailored solutions for differing needs. I've just had my boiler replaced because I want to see what happens with electric heating over the lifetime of this new boiler. Right now, none of the renewable options for my property (too small and no land at all) but the advances in electric heating have been massive over the last ten years or so. I'm hoping some form of renewable will become an option in that time, whether it be hydrogen boilers or electric.
@@randomhumanoidblob4506 yeah just thought I’d mention that ac and heat pumps are almost identical just running in reverse. Many heat pumps will work as both ac and heat pumps. You can have multi line setups that move heat from one room to the other.
The Government is wanting to force people to switch to heat pumps, but have the considered that the social landlords will not be able to afford to put them in their properties and some of their properties will not be able to take them and the spaces that used to be available for the hot water tanks have been reconfigured for other uses after combi-boilers replaced the old style central heating systems.
In response to a question about hydrogen boiler roll out in UK, the government's Secretary of State for Energy stated in November 2021 after COP26:
"Low carbon hydrogen could be one of a few key options for decarbonising heat in buildings. However, unlike other technologies such as heat pumps and heat networks, 100% hydrogen for heating is not yet an established option. The Government is working with industry and regulators to deliver a range of research, development and testing projects to assess the feasibility, costs and benefits of using 100% hydrogen for heating to enable the Government to make strategic decisions in 2026 on its role in heat decarbonisation".
I don't understand the design of the new Worcester's, having to take the boiler off the wall to change the expansion vessel, even changing the prv and plate heat exchanger, the easiest way is to remove the boiler?
It is a scam that you are being fined for not selling heat pumps!
If heat pump is good, it sells itself, period!.
To make you to buy those certificates to avoid fine is a fraud; it is anti-competitive.
I am surprised that you as such a big manufacturer accepts that crap. Have you any balls to sue them under anti-competitive regulations.??
So basically any company that hasn't sold enough, will have to subsidise a company that's owned by some MP's mate who produces heat pumps. Otherwise known as lobbying.
Or corruption.
@@raytrevor1 Most likely both... My B&Q Ravenheat came with LPG jets, and my new All gas cooker too!. When the gas goes beyond the pocket of this poor, frail Pensioner, I won't hesitate to convert. Fuck 'em Ray!
yep same as carbon credits basically.
They don't produce heat pumps in the UK.
@@michaelmayo3127 they don't work in UK , it's too cold unless you've built a new 100 % sealed house or they don't work.
Don't get me wrong, I like heat pumps as we make a better margin on them because the overall cost of install is so much higher and generally doesn't take too much longer than updating a open vent system to sealed with new rads etc anyway. The issue is unless the customer is doing all the extra work to the property at the same time (rads/insulation/insulating pipework etc etc) they're never going to save money on running a heat pump over going from a conventional boiler to a condensing boiler (be it system/heat or combi) as it's not a straight swap. And when educating people on that it puts them off because they no longer see a heat pump as a cost effective option because they can't be straight swapped, as one put it - "there's no point saving the future if it's going to put me in debt for my future".
Hi sir would you still agree that most homes are totally unsuitable for heat source. Because the ambient temperature can never meet that of a boiler , with underfloor heating and top rated installation of course yes every time . But when you have people like some good friends of ours who with out consulting me and why should they . We’re persuaded to have a heat pump installed in Victorian cottage with none installed walls and low output radiators , does this not highlight the problem with the whole concept that is been actively pushed by our incompetent government
Agreed
@@Mc674bo Only just seen this so apologies in the response. Most homes currently given the ONS tally on insulation etc no they're not suitable and that's not down to ambient temperature. There's a chart we use as a company that basically consists of (very basic version):
Type of wall construction: Solid/Cavity/Insulated
Type of property: Terraced/semi/detached
Location of property: Town or City/ Suburb/ Countryside
Type of fuel: Electric/ Gas/ LPG/ Oil
Current appliance: Condensing or not/ Combi or system
Special requirements: Conservation area etc
If you're in a conservation area and don't already have an Oil or LPG tank, forget ASHP it's Ground source or a no go.
If you're on LPG or Oil you'll likely save money in running costs IF you're well insulated otherwise you may as well boil an egg with a candle.
The list goes on but basically Heat Pumps aren't a silver bullet but they are preferable to the load Resistive type units put on the grid where you're 1:1 on input/output at best but the temperatures are higher. The majority of homes are capable of being heated by heat pumps provided adequate steps are taken to make them viable as they are not a direct replacement. Given the cost of making them viable for the majority of people no they're not suitable even if they're suitable for the properties. There in lies the issue, people vs property.
@Richard L 1890s detached or terraced? Normally we'd be looking at Kingspan or alike in between the joists at a minimum 70mm and often put in from above (check out Gosforthhandyman channel for reference). Depending on which type of underfloor heating you're having fitted and how much over all head height you have for doorways and ceilings if your joist depth isn't great you can make up the difference with a thicker UFH insulation plate. Definitely not ideal and would need heat calcs done, but not being privy to your installation your own heating engineer would be best to advise you.
It is possible to get old properties to work comfortably with HP and UFH with single skin walls so don't be put off if it's what you desire, my best piece of advice would be a mechanical ventilation system for inlet/extract air if you're planning on insulating single skin walls. Generally it's preferable to insulate the outside of the building envelope as it can be continuous but it's costly, if interior insulation is used it can cause issues with damp and in the worst situations cause damage to the structure. That's more of building science than heat pump installation view though and in my opinion it would be better to keep the inside skin heated but again relative to your specific residence and locale. But please consult a local structural engineer for any changes you're planning on making that deviate from the buildings original design. Local engineers are often the best source of information for the history of how the buildings have aged and been affected by various different alterations.
@Richard L PVT is great in concept but not many installers at all, we don't and normally recommend separate systems and normally only use thermal to heat a hot water cylinder. If you're a semi with 700-800mm thick you'd be in the same realm as a one of the listed buildings we've worked at in the southern counties. They did not insulate internally and went back to using the original (after much testing) lime render on the outside of the building. No damp issues and no condensation build up internally but they are using mechanical air in/out as it's a pretty air tight property now, slightly outside passive house levels due to windows and doors being not being allowed to be updated.
If you've only 20-30cm it's better to lift boards and do it from above, there is a product for PIR/PUR board called Gapotape which helps it fit more snugly into joist bays and takes up any variation to a point. What ever you decide to do, anything that's likely to be run in the void, pipework, cabling, DPC to stop ground moisture build up get that done first. Pretty obvious but you'd be amazed at the amount of people that suddenly want a re wire after the rest of the work has already progressed.
It sounds like your property is one that's already quite suited to a heat pump, one thing I forgot was get a damp meter reading of the walls internal and external and a temperature measurement across them (in summer and winter). Not all installers do that, some have an engineer come in specifically to test it. It will give a good indication of your walls U value (if you'll need extra insulation or not) and if it's drying to the inside of the property and moisture is tracking through.
Interesting times indeed, I try to be professional and neutral because at the end of the day if you don't do what's best for the customer it effects my future business. That said you can only do what's best within the customers means and expectations. Thus at times a Boiler is just a better choice than a HP but that doesn't mean the boiler and heating system shouldn't be designed in such a way that it can be altered in future if circumstances change.
Hi Roger nice to have the opinion of Martin as a supplier of boilers . As someone who has an old camray oil boiler I always watch with interest these discussions , and as previously stated I’m a retired electrical contractor so although not technically minded from a plumber perspective i do have a degree of knowledge as to how things do or do not work . So let’s get the preverbal elephant out of the room , air source heat pumps , at least 90% of homes in this country are totally unstable for their use . Even houses that are being built as we speak are not totally onboard with this dictate . We are storing up a problem that will keep you and possible your grandchildren in work for years. So who is actually advising the government in this so called problem , I bet a pound to shilling it’s someone who wouldn’t know a boiler from a tumble dryer . As always Rodger great respect to your good self 😀👍👍👍
Carrie Johnson?
Agreed totally ! I even have a friend in America that had a house built with heat pumps included and in the winter she freezes they dont work except in very limited areas
Please explain
Nail and Head and as Roger has said in a previous video, 10 yrs from now Heat Pumps are the next solicitor cash cow(ala PPI).
@@davewebster1627 heat pumps heat water to a lower temperature than boilers. Heat flows from hot to cold faster the hotter it is. So with than in mind you will see different outputs from the radiators given different temperatures.
So if you have a lower temperature output you need more area on the radiators ie bigger or more surface area on the radiators.
With a boiler you’ve got more leeway, like having a big powerful engine in a car, it will go fast no matter how bad the aerodynamics are so design isn’t so critical but with heat pumps they suffer badly if the design is poor.
With a boiler also have the ability to pump a lot of heat quickly and heat up your house quickly. Heat pumps can’t do that so need to remain on a lot longer.
There is also a reduced efficiency of heat pumps when the outside temperature is colder. Below zero and you can get icing problems and the unit then needs resistive heat to melt that and restive heat uses a lot of power.
If you are using it to heat up a cylinder you need to ensure it’s about 55deg around once every 2 weeks to kill off legionaries disease and this is again resistive heating.
The problem in the uk is our housing stock isn’t very well built for keeping heat in and therefore you need to insulate and ventilate correctly or you’ll loose a lot of heat and or create damp problems. In addition most of our houses are packed in densely built areas so the noise from a heat pump will be a problem at night no matter what the manufacturers say.
A well built house with the correct thermal design and a heat pump can be very cheap to run but if not they cost can cost a lot more than a boiler.
In my opinion heat pumps are like electric cars fantastic in the right use case but not suitable to every scenario.
Hope that helps
Common sense conversation between trades people, thank you.
These govt fines have all the ingredients of the next mis-selling scandal! 😖🤬
Spot on. A heat pump is a bad idea. The heat load is too low. The problem is heat pumps are plan A and there is no plan B as I am sorry to say hydrogen will not work due to a massive transportation problem.... if it has to go through pipes we need to double or treble the diameter of the pipes and where is the hydrogen coming from? If electrolysis then 1kW I. Gives 500 watts equivalent of hydrogen out hen you need to compress it consuming more energy so hydrogen will only transmit 40% of the electricity used to make it so why bother.... I have a degree in physics and another in petroleum engineering and I just have to laugh at this unfolding situation as so poorly thought through, well it's not been thought through.
@@davidramsay6142 agreed David... We need real experts making these strategic decisions as I can see this all going horribly wrong in the not too distant future. 😬 It was the same when the govt controlled interest rates at the BofE... Boom or bust on a regular basis! 😂
@Chris Bradly is spot on. What about those of us on LPG? And without our woodburner in the lounge, the heat of which also goes upstairs nicely, we'd have to have the LPG on well into the night - can't begin to imagine how much LPG we'd get through then! The local dealer would probably run out of cylinders! All these ideas dreamt up by idealists living in their Westminster / urban bubbles have no concept of rural life. And if woodburners were as dangerous as they made out, civilisation would have become extinct long ago, as we've been burning wood for heat and cooking ever since we could stand upright! Rant over. Great discussion though, without Roger's videos I'd never have the bathroom I've built!
May I kindly remind you that since that time demographics have changed quite a lot and the average life expectancy wasn’t that great.
@@anonymous.youtuber your point?
@@stepheng8779 That humanity's ability to denude the globe of trees has increased at an exponential rate and we have now exceeded the planet's capacity to cope.
The problem with your wood burner is that what you’re burning isn’t sustainable. When early man burnt wood the trees were abundant and in the case of Aboriginal ancestors managed properly. Burning anything for heat has got to stop. #stopburningstuff
@@sjcsystems I'm a bit split on this one. Despite your statement, I think that you will find, if you do a little research, that there are more trees on the planet present day than there were 200 years ago. The main reason for this is that prior to that time chopping down trees was pretty much the only way to provide heat and manufacturing materials. Around 200 years ago we started discovering alternate combustible fuels and creating alternate manufacturing materials and have more recently been concerned with managing a 'sustainable' timber supply. However, in the presence of those alternative fuels I do get a little upset that some folks still take pleasure in chopping down healthy trees and chucking them on their 'cute' little log burners. It seems highly pollutant and wholly unwarranted to me! Just saying!
I am sitting here in my old (1913) semi with draughty, rattily old sash windows and it's cold and pittling down outside but my old Worcester Bosch is trundling away keeping us nice and cosy. It has been in about 10 years or so, never any trouble and I for one have no intension of going down the heat pump route until I am forced to do so.
I mean if I was doing a big refurb I’d 100% get a ductless heat pump. It’s just a lot lot cheaper.
Roger and Martyn are a great COMBI-nation! Really interesting stuff! 👍😂
Ha! very inventive
They could probably have condensed the video a little though.
@@ricos1497 😬👍
Its all a big scam it be lot worse then say to us all it didn't work so we will have to pay again to go back how it was just like are smart motor ways
I've still got an old cast iron, pilot lighting boiler. 40 years + old. Still going strong. 🤞
@@Benzknees Less gas than what?
@@Benzknees Or a dodgy meter. I'd keep quiet about it if I were you.
Same here. Mines more like Triggers broom though.
@@Benzknees I don't think so. There is no way it would use less gas than a modern condensor boiler. It's just physics.
I just replaced mine - 35yr old Potterton. And it could've been repaired but at some point you have to weigh up whether it's worth it. And I was eligible for a deal, so it made sense.
But of the twelve houses in my courtyard, only two of us have replaced the boilers and only because of deals. The rest were put in when the houses were built, still chugging away with no death-blow problems. I'm kinda fascinated to see how long they'll last, because they're not big.
And, of course, there's much less in them TO go wrong. This new thing scares the crap out of me because it's so complicated. I had a very basic understanding of how the old one worked but this thing....no chance, even though it's still only a regular boiler. It's got that many pipes and magnets and god knows what-all else coming off it, it's entirely possible I could fly to Mars in it!
If anyone thinks the housing stock of this country is capable of using Air Source Heat pumps effectively, they are sadly mistaken. Like most things in life now, we have people who have done FA their entire lives, but feel they know it all and can manage everyone. Gone are the days when someone started on the shop floor and worked they way up, it's pitiful really. Let's go Greta.
Well put Bill.!
You'll have a choice in the future, live cold, live expensively or live in a higher performance building (be it modern or updated)
The typical gas boiler service: Takes off cover, messes up seals. Usually loses at least one screw. Deflates expansion vessel further by sticking his finger in the valve - 'there's air so it's fine!' Hangs around a bit staring at the boiler. Leaves.
That is about right.
Probably just find someone better. They exist.
You need a better gas engineer !
Way to know a good engineer is they’ll ask what boiler you have and when it was last serviced and they’d explain a strip down service. That’s the guy you want
Nobody is touching my gas boiler this year.I was with Corgi home plan.Some of the services I had on my boiler was diabolical.I got in the end a engineer where the boiler is manufactured and he put things right.
I am 58, with an eight year old Valliant gas boiler. I suspect it will need replacing in the next seven years. At 65, I will be buying a replacement gas boiler when it needs doing. That will see me out, and it will be up to the next owners to decide how to heat this Edwardian semi. It already has 70% of the external walls insulated under render. Underfloor insulation, wet underfloor heating in an extension and mostly double glazed windows, but I doubt that lot will make a heat pump that attractive to a new resident.
As an aside those modern upvc double glazed windows are draughtier than the remaining leaded light picture windows. Why? Because window fitters down seal the frames well enough to the brick opening and the old timber frames fitted hard to the walls and sealed by a 100 years of paint.
The problem with many combi installations is is that many are fitted in houses with 15mm pipe supply from the mains. Have a shower and someone flushes a toilet (filled direct from the mains) and you realise you want a 32mm mains supply and 25mm at a minimum.
I love this so much. So much experience, expertise, wisdom.
Can't think why anyone, without a well insulated house, would pay anywhere near £10,000 for a heat pump for what looks like a worse option. I got my new boiler plus fitted for £1,800. It took a while to pay that back.
@@Swwils fair enough. But i would never be able to afford that, and I'm not exactly living in the bread line.
@@Swwils “Most commercial buildings” Not so. Try again.
We have a heat pump in our office. They call it reverse cycle air conditioning. But it’s a heat pump. When it’s cold outside (say 5 degrees c) it heats the office fairly quickly to to 22 degrees c, but only for an hour. Then it ices up and shuts down by itself for an hour and a half whilst it thaws itself out, the office temp drops to the single digits, then it fires back up again. This cycle repeats all day. This system “heats” and cools a ten person office and cost us £15,000. Do I want that sort of performance in my house? No thanks.
Just wait until they triple or quadruple the price of gas…..then you might see why?
I had my broken boiler changed for £1700 although I did the wet side plumbing and prepared the wall for mounting. Engineer took 3 hrs to fit and commission a new 35kW combi and charged £300 which included some parts. Reduced my gas consumption 20% and improved the comfort though the old boiler was on its last legs. Should get pay back in 5 to 6 years.
Nice interview. Felt like some honest answers given. Thumbs up.
Don’t forget that the people making these decisions about how you are allowed to heat you and your family are on big salaries and on the gravy train. They won’t freeze you will.
I changed my perfectly good WB boiler albeit 11 years old, with exactly the same model in may. Given the 10 year warrenty I am hoping it will last me until I don't need to be kept warm.
Sounds so sad to me. I am very sorry for you
Come on CP you want to get the letter none a this 10 year none sence
Just after being very warm indeed!
The ground must be warm as they do ground source heat pumps so you still will be warm.
I love RUclips and the way a boiler video can turn into a conversation on eschatology. Are crematoria gas fired? If so what are they going to do about that?
My wife would not agree. She wants an airing cupboard. We have just had a new Bosch 30i ERP system boiler installed. I hope it sees me out ( we are 74) It replaced an Ideal Standard 80K E type standard flue. It was fantastic. I repaired it myself ( only needed a thermocouple) but it was 44 years old and the thermostat was not good. The water was very, very hot. I doubt the new boiler will save me a penny with its maintenance costs , it has an 8 year warranty, subject to conditions of course. The government are a menace ticking boxes whilst the Chinese burn coal to make electricity to make cheap energy to sell us cheap plastic goods. Grrrr. Sorry. Very interesting. That guy knows what he is talking about. I have set the boiler to ECO temperature. I have spent £4,300 on this. A lot of gas even at current the price!. Hope it is convertible to Hydrogen?
We got an unvented system which means you no longer require a tank in an airing cupboard so... All we did was fit a small radiator in the airing cupboard running off the hot water system. Now the airing cupboard is even better than it ever was and the wife is happy 🤣
Am i wrong in thinking that the Tories are communist ?
Very informative, thanks. Would like to see a similar discussion about oil fired boilers, life expectancy, alternative oils etc.
great video.....although it must seriously reflect how middle aged i now am, that i could easily listen to you two talking boilers and heating systems for hours on end. Very knowledgeable & informative chaps. Keep the videos coming. I had the hybrid heat pump guy sales guy round yesterday giving me the pitch and i kinda felt i knew more about this thing than he did 🤣. I think im gonna keep my gas boiler and just get solar panels and a battery.
One issue that concerns me with the push to heat pumps, of what ever type, is the growing reliance on electrical power for everything. If cars, heating and hot water are all powered through this mode where is that capacity coming from within the next ten years? Power stations take decades to build.
Also following storm Ella look how long it is taking to get people reconnected.
Poor planning in my mind
Boilers need electric to run as well
@@jaimedeoliveira9216 agreed I was thinking more about total load.
Also if you can’t charge your car what do you do when the snow comes in and the power goes off?
@@dougsaunders8109 It's all in United Nations Agenda 21 / 2030 white paper, the only energy source will be expensive rationed electricity, carbon taxes and quotas, tariff shaping (live pricing), remote cut-off (smart meters).
@@dougsaunders8109 how do you pump petrol out at the petrol station, at least your EV will most likely have a full "tank"
Purposeful poor planning.
Yes, They have a future cos the heat pumps are crap.
Glad gas boilers will be around for quite a while yet. The problem is going to be the affordabiliy to run them with the way gas prices are rising so steeply. I dread to think what my bills will be after April when my fixed rate contract ends!
Hi Bruce - I have been practicing with my system now in Preparation for April - shut off all unused zones leaving only one room heated downstairs one bedroom with an 18Deg setting and the hot water in the cylinder used as little as possible and just monitoring the gas usage now at £1/24hr just hope we have a mild summer.
I lived in Germany in the late 70 s where combination boilers were the norm. When I moved back I wanted a combi but very difficult to get one. All the installers moaned said that they never worked. The classic quote was that "combis don't work in British weather"
Had boiler serviced last week asked engineer what to do when boiler needs replacing. Just the usual nothing else works , it's all rubbish etc etc. Just get the impression that the average engineer is stuck in the past
Sounds like compound steam locomotives which France ran as routine but in the UK we found them far too complicated. Nothing works with UK maintenance standards unless bog basically simple may be a better way of looking at it. The first thing in any course on any equipment repair course is practicing the tut tut with pursed lips and this is just going to be a total nightmare to fix mate and it will cost you .
Heat pumps has no future in Britain. Most homes in this country are small dwellings, and a gas boiler is ample to be the home owner ample heat to keep their home warm. Gas boilers are a cheap, tried and tested piece of equipment that actually works. Heat pumps are not tried and tested, they are really expensive, and it is doubtful that they work efficiently. Repairs to heat pumps will be expensive. They can be noisy and once you take the governments shilling and go ahead and install one, your stuck with it, even if it’s not satisfactory for your needs.
Vapour in flue gas is a sign of condensing in air, not on the heat exchanger. A sign of good condensing is more flow down the condensate line, not out the flue.
Other than that good video.
That’s rubbish the vapour is a sign of fumes with heat extracted so cools to fog immediately lol
@@jimmorris5700 the fumes are co2 + water. Air temperature affects it, but you can be assured the fumes you see are condensing water droplets.
Condensation that happens on the heat exchanger goes down the condensate line.
Condensation that does does not happen in the heat exchanger, therefore wasted latent heat, is the fog you see.
I won't say your opinion is rubbish, but you are quite wrong.
Will hydrogen cylinders ever be delivered to rural properties that don’t have mains gas?
Probably. In the first World War, the Germans used to deliver it to us in big bags.
I wasn't bullied by my energy supplier into having smart meters, nor will I be bullied into having a heat pump with a maximum water temperature of 45°C.
Smart meters have set fire to 8 houses so don't have one. The govnt know about this so do energy suppliers and they give out radiation 2o more times than a phone. No not for me either.
Absolute nut job, take your tinfoil hat off 😂
It,s upto the public what they think is best for their needs. Surely gas boilers are much more efficient these days and less polluting. I personally won't have a heat pump as they are in their infancy and not viable alternative. More development is needed for heat pumps. As with ev,s. Too expensive and very restricted.
Down with heat pumps.
I love your videos Roger but I'm taking the grant and getting the Heat Geeks to install a heat pump. I am also investing in solar, battery storage, cavity wall and additional loft insulation. A mixed approach is needed. I'm a pensioner and dipping into my pension pot to try to be independent from energy companies and to do my bit for the planet. I'm too old to lie down on the M25. 🤣
Gas is going nowhere. Unless u all wanna be sat in your living rooms freezing your tats off
I can't see a real cost affective way forward for heat pumps as the primary source of hearing. Maybe split AC units with a reverse cycle could be justified as a secondary source but they don't work well when you need them most
I dair say the parliament should go fly a kit .
They certainly have the wind, although not enough for wind turbines.🎯😉
Roger, you’re way too close to the camera. Worcester guy is at the perfect distance…
I use a simple electric boiler powered by solar panels, paying zero utility bills and I have unlimited hot water. But nice to look at these stoneage videos. I will never go back to paying gas bills.
It would be interesting to have details of that setup. A small electric boiler would be 7kw but most people would need one much larger. If you are getting over 7kw from solar panels in the winter and storing it for use in the evenings when it is cold that is a lot of kit. Assuming you got the whole lot for nothing so have no payback you may claim to have zero utility bills.
I’ve lagged my condensing pipes because last year they froze at the bottom entry. My last boiler which I had for 15 years was a potterton and the condensing pipe never froze. Had fitted in 2019 a Vailiant and last year the condensing pipe froze and stopped the boiler from working. My plumber told me to check tue pipes and sure enough was frozen. I added warm water down the pipes and it started gushing out. Lagged it and no problems since 👌🏻
Hi.. as a silver top of 8 decades I thought I'd let you know you get an occasional viewer who has a curiosity about how things work. I watched your video about heat pumps because GREEN pushers were going on about them, just to find out what they are and what they do.. You are so good at explaining things that I got really interested in Boilers! This video is also interesting just want to say thanks for keeping my thought processes polished and will look out for what else you put on up on RUclips.
Thank you too Zandra, it is good to know that you appreciate it.
Baxi used to keep service spares for 30 years
I'm indebted to Rogers excellent advice on all his videos. It's so nice to listen to someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
Instead of illiterate teenagers i,m looking at you Greta !
My old boiler is about to die - Nice to know still safe to buy another Gas Boiler - Thanks for the reassuring update.
A very nice interview it’s nice to know there are people who care about what consumers put into their homes, and yes it is their choice. My choice would definitely not to have a ground source heat pump or air source heat pump - but that’s because I live in a mid terraced home and I do not have an acre of land. With the prices of gas being extremely high at the moment and I certainly do not see any let up in this with the ongoing COVID-19 situation the question is, when and if it happens, will hydrogen be much cheaper to produce and deliver? Will this saving (if any) be passed on to the consumer?
Hydrogen is created using electricity, so hydrogen can not cost less than electricity used to create it. For every unit of heat (kWh) put into your property, it would be more economical to install conventional electric radiators (which are 100% efficient), rather than a hydrogen boiler. Or better yet, install an ASHP, they're 400% efficient.
@@stokebob ASHP may well be 400% efficient, but in a mid-terraced with a small back garden they are a terrible idea - and because most housing stock are not up to standards with thermal efficiency et cetera, having a ground source heat pump or air source heat pump is the worst idea that I or other people could take. My house is pre-1920 so most likely (I’m not sure if this is the case) I have solid walls and not cavity walls so for me it would be a terrible idea is not to think about only going for a gas - hydrogen boiler. That would still be cheaper than having a ASHP turned on 24hrs a day
@@ranxxerox6407 True, gas is currently very cheap per kWh. However, when the gas is turned off, and possibly replaced with hydrogen, then I refer you back to my first comment. You'll be better off with an ASHP, as hydrogen will be more expensive than electricity per kWh.
@@stokebob You're assuming that the price that the hydrogen producers will have to pay for their electricity is the same as the price that you as a domestic consumer has to pay. I doubt very much that this will be the case.
@@ealingbadger That logic doesn't work, as it swings both ways - the price electricity producers pay for their electricity is not the same as what domestic customers pay.
Please make a video for off grid options.
Very informative video - many thanks
Didn't mention the other problem with Combis, there is no back up hot water if the boiler fails. With a system boiler you have an immersion heater if the boiler is down. Saw this problem a few years back. A Vaillant boiler failed due to the hot water heat exchanger scaling up after 3 years. The original installer was on holiday and couldn't come to sort it. The Landlord called the manufacturer to get the number of a local Vaillant HE. Don't worry, they said, it's under warranty, we'll send someone out. 6 days later they fixed it, but no hot water for the tenant for nearly a week. Not Good!!
We as consumers should encourage heatpump manufacturers to provide inelegant COP graphs covering outside air temp vs water temp and flow rates. They only provide spot figures. Then again if they did this nobody would ever buy them after seeing how bad the figures would be in winter when you need the highest COP the most
I have had my boiler a closed system with expansion tank 12 years of noise and bangs. I will replace with a combi even though it is a 3 storey house. Heat pumps are for when we have no alternative like gas boilers.
At last a worthwhile discussion on energy..Firstly the BSS on all boilers stipulates the when calculating boiler efficiency, the heat uptake of the boiler is calculated on a return temperature to the boiler of 0deg C. This unrealistic temperature shows boilers to have the ridiculous efficiencies of 90%, which the boiler manufacturers trumpet as high efficiency. Whilst most radiator systems are designed with a mean flow/return of 70C, these efficiencies are of course never achieved. With methane gas condensing boilers, the efficiencies can be approved somewhat, but at 57C condensation is zero and increases as return temperature drops. Were one to install a low temperature underfloor system with a F&R temperature of 23-30C, then the condensing gas boiler comes into its own. Adding a weather compensating set to regulate the Boiler Flow Temp. to the Outside Air temperature increases the efficiency whilst also reducing the ever increasing gas prices. The utter nonsense of all, it that the generation efficiency of a Gas Fired Electric Generating Station is in the order of 38%. and 62% of the energy is wasted beyond recovery ...Keep up the good work Roger
+Skill Builder
What would happen if you simply fed the house cold water down a large pipe mat deeper under the garden, then back into boiler, in order to ground-source heat the incoming water for no on-going cost ...?
The pipe is already under the ground and picks up no heat. There are a lot of things people don't understand about ground source heat so we will have to do a video on it.
@@SkillBuilder I'm thinking *deeper* -- I understood older Cold water mains are lower in the ground and new are higher and produce colder water generally. This ought also to be clarified. I would imagine that cold water fed deep enough could indeed warm up somewhat, but might be infeasible/unrealistic.
I had an old simple designed boiler from the early 1980s which lasted over 40 years and had simple controls . The replacement a combi boiler was more bulky and the controls relied on a small dull LCD window which is difficult to read . The user manual consisted of the installers manual which was hopeless for a user and I was told the typical life would be 10 to 15 years .
ask him why they call the greenstar junior the watering can, cause ive got one and i know
My worcester bosch combi was installed in 2000. Ive had to replace the heat exchanger, diaphragm, flo fan motor and thermocouple. Apart from that its still going strong. after almost 21 years. With original radiators.
That sounds good, I have a 13 year old Potterton heat only boiler that I'm happy with and recently had serviced which the engineer said was in very good health and should have some years left in it.
So, hopefully it will get to 2026 when gas/hydrogen ready boilers will be making an appearance..
Why are they called boilers when they don't actually boil the water within them?
One of life's mysteries but I am not going to lose sleep over this one.
It is always good to go over the basics and remind people of the small changes that are constantly going on.
Just out of interest, and just changing the subject, with the increase in gas prices how do electrical powered boilers Fare?
Very interesting Keith ex British Gas.
To the heat pump naysayers, heat pumps and condensing boilers both want low flow and return temperatures. This guy's ideal world return temps are 30 degrees. Heat pumps will do great if they can get a 30 degree return!!
"Jeremy Vine" jeez you must be desperate to be on tv,😒 otherwise interesting chat
Radio actually. It is not so much desperation as a desire to get our channel out there. We work very hard and want to reach as big an audience as possible.
@@SkillBuilder I won't hold it against you 🙂
@@SkillBuilder Which episode?
A very informative video. I leant a lot about the condensing aspect of the combi boiler and the temperatures involved.
The flue pluming being a sign of high efficiency is misinformation.
The problem with heat pumps is that they work on electricity, bearing in mind you cannot store electricity, so if sufficient numbers switch to a electric heating more power stantions will be needed. Gas can be stored and therefor cope with fluctuating demand of a heating season.
@John Chapman gas boilers use a tiny amount of electricity. 13 new power stations is nowhere near enough even if 30% swtch to heatpumps. Remember the grid is sized on peak usage, plus the efficiency will reduce with an enlarged differentials between peak and normal. All in all this is the dumbest idea since...no the dumbest ever. In Norway they use a lot of hydro which is more flexible and as you say the insulation and OA heat exchangers mean low loads.
@John Chapman this policy is so stupid. Whoever is advising the government is a complete idiot and this needs to be reversed before people start dumping their boilers and later sue the government.
@John Chapman be careful John you are skating on this ice, but "ignorance " is a good word, incorrect, but good.
Maybe just swap the subsidies on gas to electric over time and just switch people to electric heating and built more renewable and nuclear. But then all the fossil fuel people will be sad and we cant have that can we 😑
Helium (He) is the smallest molecule NOT hydrogen (H2) ... and don’t forget the wide explosive limits of hydrogen leading to explosions 🤔
Let's return to 'town gas' CH4 + H2 where the H2 was 50%
@@JohnnyMotel99 I see you have no understanding of hydrocarbons and their basic chemistry ...
@@andyxox4168 I didn’t mean actual town gas, but there is a plan to mix up to 20% H2 with Nat gas. The Worcester guy mentioned this.
@@JohnnyMotel99 .. seems somewhat irrelevant to the statement I made regarding either helium or the explosive limits of Hydrogen (if it leaked) and it’ll screw the power generation industry (heating values and wobbe index for instance)
@@andyxox4168 ok, you got me with tech stuff, but mixing H2 with Nat gas is a viable option for reducing emissions.
My Trianco Redfire Centrajet 18-28 is 46 years young and still going strong!
That company is now long gone. They tried heat pumps after the oil boilers. Such a shame to see a good British company go down the pan.
This fine conversation is now a year on.. and how the world has changed.. Russia's land grab has affected us all with the cutting of the Gas supply (not so much to us.. but causing panic in that market and pushing the wholesale price up..) We are entering a difficult period of probable recession.. so cost becomes primary.
I believe Hydrogen is difficult (Expensive) to manufacture and from the comments below will need a whole new infrastructure too.. and when all this is done.. If it's too expensive.. we aint gonna buy it.. Keep Hydrogen for Planes.
Politians are generally simple creatures who get their information from 'professionals..!' in byte size chunks for onward transmission.. I believe Heat Pumps fall into this 'Buzzword' category (The UK Building Trade is litered with these 'Fads..') which is easy to promote as an answer to a problem. And so becomes cemented into 'Policy' never to be reviewed.
Rogers view on this topic alone should be enough to stiffle this unlikely market (with most comments in the positive) and I feel kinda sorry for Worcester/bosch having to buy into this under threat of fines if it doesn't work.. Ah, the Russian way.. Lets punish failure instead of rewarding success..
Personally.. having had to remove my Gas CH a couple of years ago (thanks to incompetent plumbers) I now have a very simple setup.. Electric heaters in each room with timers. Cheap to buy.. Install yourself.. Easy to replace/repair.. Non intrusive.. (No lifting carpets and flooring to get at Pipes..) The KWH unit cost may be more but compared to all the other costs involved in Boilers or Heat pumps (Installation of £27k for GSHP + maintenance + actual running costs..) It's very favourable..
I reckon at worst I use 15kwh's a day in Winter for heating + my daily 6kwh general Electric use.
Electricity is everywhere in the UK.. Unlike Gas.. Insulation is absolutely primary..
Then lets keep building renewable resources.. Wind and solar and whatever clever new stuff is in the pipeline.. Perhaps we can isolate ourselves from volatile market forces..
So, a conventional (or regular) boiler, replacing an existing boiler with expected life of 30 years, is 'good value' with a life of 10-15 years, and compare the cost of your mobile phones. On the other hand, there's not a huge amount of labour involved in replacing a phone. Amazing that the product lasts only a third or a half as long as before, but that's OK. We all know the national grid won't cope, and that the British government could actually plan, fund and implement a replacement infrastructure. So long as it's in Imperial units, we'll be OK, or perhaps we could get a trade deal with a far-off nation.
The gas boiler I have installed in 1991, still working and not noisy? I’m a little confused, will the use of gas to be completely banned in 2035? I presume that includes gas generating electricity plants will be decommissioned and closed by 2035? It isn’t logical to ban home gas boilers and continue to generate electricity with gas? Although I accept hydrogen might replace natural gas but I can’t see this as a cheap option in terms of generation.
With the switch to electricity for most things where is the increased generation going to come from? I was brought in the era when nuclear power was definitely not green with some waste products radio active for 100,000 years. I also remember as part of my work visiting families in local authority accommodation, all electric homes, they couldn’t afford to heat their homes, damp, mildewed and freezing 20 floors up. If they heated their homes adequately the bills were horrendous. The eco warriors will shout insulation, a euphemism for cladding and we are familiar with Grenfell Twr, the housing stock in the U.K. will be exceptionally difficult to insulate, most houses built before the war do not have cavity walls and the houses were built cheaply on the premise of cheap coal. Virtually have to demolish most of the housing stock and rebuild to Scandinavia standards. Building standards are deplorable in the U.K. due to Tory ideology of getting rid of “red tape” and local authority building inspectors. Much the same as the Tory policy of the removal of animal feed standards, gave the country BSE, resulting numerous deaths and countless billions wasted and British beef exports banned for years, I believe some countries still do not accept beef from U.K. I’m thoroughly depressed, pass me the malt I stay warm internally.
Great video. Martyn is a good and honest man. He is a credit to his company, great marketing by WB.
Servicing boilers....... here's my take on it... I bought a £12 flow cup and a £5 thermometer. Once a year in autumn I run the hot water on the commissioning settings which was full open tap and check the temperature rise. So far perfect no change. If I found the temperature rise had fallen for the same volume I would know there was a problem likely crap in the heat exchanger or a bunged up burner. If this is the case then you would get an engineer in to open the boiler and clean out the heat exchanger. Viessmann makes a tool for cleaning so must be occasionally needed. I am thinking about an inline filter for my gas supply to stop crap going in.
Like the initiative to do these highly informative videos and thanks to Worcester Bosch's man Martyn. Carry on Chaps.
No modern boiler should need even touching for five years.
mark rainford I hope not but my simple test should confirm this. In the past I just left the boiler and accepted I would replace it in 10 years. On that basis the money saved on unnecessary servicing pays for the next boiler.
@@davidramsay6142 Agreed. A lot of manufacturers now say if a flue gas analysis reading is satisfactory, then leave it alone. Don't fix what ain't broke.
Martin sounds like you have to defend a very weak position Martin. Supplemented the internal expansion vessel with an external with 3 times the working volume and the condensate trap drains direct into the soil pipe internally to avoid freezing issues.
I am more used to working high pressure gas around 120 bar, especially testing, processing and producing it aside from drilling it 3 miles under the ground. The boiler I had replaced was fitted by the previous owner and had all the paperwork etc.... however it was fitted onto drywall by cutting access holes and sandwiching the plaster between the bracket and a block of wood..... I find some installers to be complete cowboys, they are usually the first to jump in shouting what you can and can not do.....
@@NFAQ1 A condensate trap does not need to be cleaned out every year, you have a serious combustion problem if you do. An expansion vessel that needs recharging every 12 months has basically failed. Calm yer t*ts down.
exhaust heat pumps are absolute garbage. I live in a one bed flat (housing association) which was built with a large heat pump boiler in it. The pump a nibe and is bigger than a free standing fridge freezer. I do not use the heating ever because it is just too expensive. My electricity bill is now £120.00 per month and this has put me into "fuel poverty". Until this Covid debacle, I had a good job.
I moved in to my flat when it was first built back in 2010. My housing Association kowtowed to the government and this disgusting..
fascinating subject used to work at Baxi on the production line seem to remember our boilers were built under licence from some Italian company
If we can get rid of the world economic Forum and corrupt mp's I think the gas boiler will be king for a good while ✌
Well modern boilers imo are rubbish.My old Potterton was in a self contained lovely cabinet with an electric extractor ,for 30 years with a couple of parts,Now I have a worcestor with an ugly black bogey filter sticking out,A walk of pipes.A big pipe around the outside of my lovely house.Its noisy and had to have power flush to get it to work.All that ‘high efficency’ nonsense is just that nonsense and sales talk,imo.They say a 7 year guarantee ,hahaha will they can,t get the parts .
Great video! I just had the combi boiler moved in a refurbishment project and I'm now noticing that if I have the hot tap on full, it goes lukewarm. If I have it on half flow it is piping hot. It's a Baxi 33kW boiler that is about 5 years old. My plumbers (who I don't have tons of confidence in) have done a performance test (thermometer and wier cup) and tell me that it is working within spec and there is nothing I can do about it. Seems rather unsatisfactory that the bath tap and other taps on full open run lukewarm... Is there really nothing that can be done? (apart from maybe upgrading to an even higher powered combi)
Possible your plate heat exchanger maybe scaled up, this would result in less hot warmer as one of the symptoms
They have had to add hot water storage tank to combi boilers to make them more efficient and useable, combi boilers more for smaller properties and more unreliable than system boilers because of extra complication. Combi will not use condensing mode heating water either. That 'expert' said incoming temperature had no effect on flow but then said user has to turn flow down to get same temperature - is he an expert. We have a system boiler with pressurised water tank and it work very, very well with a 19Kw condensing boiler - and hot and cold water at same pressure.. Another thing with condensing boilers is that they do not condense unless return water flow is
Heat pumps simply does not work when the temperature is getting close to the minimum ratings due to the inefficiency and defrost cycle. I have friends who spent $100 extra per minth using heat pump at -10c to -20c than they would have using a straight electric heater due to defrost cycle. To hear government in the UK is forcing manufacturers to sell heat pumps is ludicrous. It reminds me of what China is doing forcing everyone to gas heaters which people can't afford from coal. Sounds like doesn't matter where one lives special interest benefiting the rich and law makers.
Utter ‘s Preposterous there should be no inclusion of heat pump tech to be mandatory, market mechanism. I can think of a fe choice words about that green lobby idea . It should be a customer choice not something forced on someone the moment they do that people start voting with there feet . In a market where electric is due to go up to 60p a kwh in 2023 (far higher than any other country in Europe ). Not only will it be impossible to pay for the majority it will be far hight that the best gas boilers that drop to 3kwh when temps aren’t required . And the daftest reason new build that have heat pumps if you look at the energy breakdown it markets it a ok then complains of no secondary energy source. You can’t win. There better off forcing shops and half of streetlight to be turned off , anyone driving along thr motorway knows there’s to many lights anyway since they swapped it out without doing a light calculation it’s just to bright , turn off the Christmas lights this year along the street and stop high energy service such as trains off peak and night in less than 1 year we have gone from 7p to 40 p and soon it will be higher. It’s pointless building more nuclear since the cost per plant will be billions and takeover 10 years to build and that will be passed on in bills just like Hinckley c at record levels per mw , it’s the same with wind but worse since it won’t be the U.K. that benefits from the money it makes since we farmed most out to edf and China . We need short term easing on restrictions. Grants to remove all g to c rated boilers. And any cylinder less than c .
When will the tax on electricity (that has been used to develop wind and solar renewables) be applied to gas prices to level the playing field?
Put simply this is all about buisness and profit . You hear very little about the fact british gas have already commited to a hydrogen mix in the very near future and already have trial villages running on hydrogen . This solution also manages to use the decades we have invested in this infastructure as well . Time will prove ASHPs are a fad that will never find a decent market share .
I've just had the gas put on with a condensing boiler because put simply the electric heating is crippling to run . This boiler is said to be 98% efficient so we're looking forward to big savings from a tripleA rated boiler
We bought a 50% shared ownership flat with a gas boiler, brand new build, and because I didn't know about gas boilers needing an annual service, we were there for 7 years before thinking about it. We then wanted to sell the flat, and were asked about it, so we called British Gas to service it and the engineer turned up and moaned that the flue went from an internal kitchen through a boxed area to the external wall. He moaned the boxed area had no inspection panels and he moaned that he didn't want to test the flue exhaust even though it was a first floor flat. Luckily they didn't charge us, and the property sale went through anyway, but it was just silly. We tried to do the best thing and ended up being told to jump in the river by British Gas.
This is only new builds nothing has changed for older houses yet and Worcester boilers have designed a kit approx 100 for your original boiler to run off hydrogen if needed it's no different from having North Sea gas and bottled gas.. Just a conversion kit.. To many with a vested interest trying to push us all the one way..
Fantastic conversation and so helpful to people like me who are not tradesman. Thank you Roger and Martyn.
I like Rodgers point from a previous video. 'Heat pumps have been avaliable for decades, if they were so good we would all have them already''
Will government actually outlaw existing gas boilers (of any kind) by a certain date - causing a huge rush to replace ?
Clearly there is no difference between a landlord's gas boiler needing an annual service, and a private owner's boiler - same boiler and dwelling and an identical family so same risk.
No roger the flow rate stays same but the thermostat cuts off more of the very cold water so the hot can keep the temp you have set the same ?! So combined flow is reduced .
Now running a cold bath it will fill at mains pressure dia of pipe allowing , turn the hot tap on water flows at full boiler heat .
As you can see the problem is in the shower ?
The fox in the henhouse is mains pressure , which the water comps have steadily reduced to the legal min of 2 bars in most places .
No size of boiler will help if only 2bars of water flow and to prove my point the gov threaten anyone putting a power pump on the water inlet , quite rightly sayi n you be stealing other peoples water esp in a cul de sac , so desperate they are tocover for water comp0profitd lol .
This why you see people installing huge storage tanks in there lofts , to get pressure for many showers ,or having pressurised tank systems fed by pump an on tap at pressure for use lol .
It’s a same of spending dividends on repairing leaks OR. lowering pressure so not so much leaks away , I mean we only get so much rain lol .
If it wouldn't be for current bs crisis, I wouldn't touch the damned heat pumps. I'd say gas boilers still more viable comparing to oil-fed ones
Thanks. At last we have real facts and figures on the venerable gas boiler. Are each boiler make give the efficiency of their boiler.