Thanks so much for watching this video. Just after I recorded it, the energy price cap changed, so I did a mini update video with the same figures at the new prices - have a look - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html And if you want to hear about how we have improved efficiency since it was recorded - subscribe for a video coming soon!
I’m in a one bedroom social housing bungalow and registered disabled and suffer with COPD and my housing association had the air source installed and I absolutely HATE IT, it’s costing so much more than the modern night storage heaters. The bungalow is much colder than it was before and because this property is now deemed energy efficient which it most certainly isn’t and I have now LOST MY WARM HOME DISCOUNT and the COLD WEATHER PAYMENTS due to a piece of paper deeming it so, So if anyone has the choice from their housing associations to have it installed please think very carefully before you take the plunge, if I could turn back the clock I would have declined as I had modern storage heaters which had a timer and fan on the bottom which cost so much less to run than this awful costly system. If anyone tries to tell you that it’s cheaper than storage heaters I can tell you from my experience it most certainly isn’t.
Hi Jonathan, sorry to hear about your experience but thanks for sharing it. It doesn't sound like your system is set up correctly as there is no reason your house should be cold with a heat pump. It should also be cheaper to run than storage heaters. Everything is more expensive this year than previous years but the efficiency of a heat pump means you should be buying less electricity if set up correctly. What is the manufacturer of the heat pump? I will try and help if I can give any tips Thanks Tom
Thanks thamesmud - although the situation has changed with the energy price cap changing in October. I did an update here - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html - at the efficiency we had last year this means we would break even with an old gas boiler. I would say to add, our heat pump is heating a Victorian terrace with some fairly average improvements to insulation, and this year we are actually saving with the efficiency improvements we have had. I would say heat pumps don’t have a ‘pay back’ but neither does a new kitchen or a new car or a new sofa… we often invest in order to change lifestyle. And the reduction in emissions, for me, is worth the cost! Tom
This video does not represent a valid comparison of the merits of installing a heat pump. Some issues which were not referenced; 1/ Capital costs. The heat pump installation alone, sans solar panels, wind turbine shares etc., is likely to have cost at least £10k, net of the government subsidy. 2/ Space taken by the heat pump. 3/ Space taken by the buffer vessel. 4/ Noise from the heat pump. 5/ Installation of larger radiators (always needed unless over large radiators are already fitted, or the dwelling is very modern and extremely well insulated). 6/ How warm the house is compared to gas heating. The usual experience is that heat pumps cannot heat normal homes as well as before. This would explain (assuming similar climatic conditions) the lower heat consumption year on year following the heat pump installation. 7/ Disruption caused by the installation process. 8/ Reference to reducing running expenses by further expenditure in solar panels and wind turbine shares are a false equivalence. These same investments could be made, decreasing household electricity costs, without the presence of a heat pump. 9/ The only reason that the increased running costs of the heat pump were not far greater is the large increase in gas prices. Which is a deliberate government ploy to raise energy costs in order to herd people into “green” options. In essence; installing a heat pump for the video presenter involved a great deal of expenditure and inconvenience, at the end of which he has a noisier heat pump noise), smaller (space taken by heat pump and buffer vessel), colder home which is more expensive to run than before. Good luck with that.
Hi imprator- thanks for your comment. I’ll come back with a few points… I have been into a lot of this in other videos, installation disruption, cost, changes to radiators, space taken up etc. I didn’t expect this video to be seen so much so didn’t feel I needed to give more context. Quick answers - we were part of a research project so there was no cost to us to install. The cost of installation was just under £11k. Heat pump doesn’t take up too much space outside. Buffer and hot water tank take up a similar space to the old boiler but we have lost some storage space. Noise - ruclips.net/video/ksrAZM-ldI8/видео.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE - it may get worse over time but we are happy so far. Radiators - our radiators are not outrageous, seem suitable for each room, bigger radiators would mean higher efficiency and in hindsight I would have gone bigger. Comfort - we are much more comfortable with a heat pump as you don’t have the steep changes in temperature as heating goes on and off. Our system can hit the desired temperature as required. Disruption - our installation was in the summer so didn’t lose heating. Hot water tank with immersion heater was installed in a day. There were plumbers / electricians at our house for 3 days. It wasn’t that disruptive. Electricity costs - without a heat pump a lot of local generation would be exported to the grid, which has less value. I don’t think it is a false equivalence, you can’t dig up your own natural gas but you can generate electricity locally to provide free heat / hot water (and free miles in an EV). Electrifying everything is one way to reduce costs. Government ploy - your comment is suggesting that tax / subsidy has never been used to change public behaviour before? If we need to move away from gas and reduce emissions then bring on the government help for low carbon tech. Although I would point out that gas is still greatly subsidised compared to electricity. I really disagree with your final summary, we have a cheaper bill for heating, we are more comfortable, and we have reduced emissions by ~70%. I have shared my experience clearly and honestly and it doesn’t chime with what you are saying. Thanks for commenting but it is fairly frustrating to hear so much disinformation on a video when I have said the opposite things in other videos on this channel. I am not sure what makes people so upset about heat pumps, they are a clever technology that uses much less energy to keep us comfortable. They will be a very important technology for the next few decades in the UK. All the best Tom
We've only had our heat pump for just over a week. The biggest shock has been seeing more than a week's electricity consumption per day! Yes it's been cold. We'd been lead to believe our heating and hot water would be cheaper. We are seriously out of pocket so far. Our oil boiler kept us very warm with no problem. We need to use our log burner to get warm. Perhaps over a year we might save. The jury is out. We both hope we've made the correct decision. If this forum is still up I'll update next year.
Hi MOS Vids - yes the last week must have been the biggest shock on electricity costs. Having negative temperatures for a week / 10days has been pretty crazy! Our heating has been very expensive too and efficiencies have been pretty low. My analysis of our system is that, at price guarantee rates, it is now cheaper to run than our old gas boiler and I would suggest much cheaper than oil. The key would be making sure you’re operating as efficiently as possible by keeping flow temperatures to the minimum required via an appropriate weather compensation curve. You might be concerned at costs over the next couple of months but should be similar to oil if not cheaper and come slightly milder weather in the spring it should be very cheap to run Good on you for moving away from Oil though. That’s a great step for all of us!
@@Medea007 I will check tonight and let you know tomorrow. During our first week we were getting through 40+ kWh daily. Yesterday was less than 9 kWh. Until tomorrow. Peter
When you need the heat the most (when it's cold outside) is when the heat pump operates at least efficiency. These units are only feasible in warmer climates, or with extremely well-insulated houses.
Thanks for the calculations. Don't forget that on top of the increase in costs, you also need to factor in the cost of installation. So from a purely economic perspective, install a heat pump if you're already at that point where you might need to replace an existing boiler. And, as you mentioned, coupling it with Solar, works really well too.
Absolutely. We were actually part of a research project that was fully funded. So there wasn’t a cost for us. But the bill for installation was around £11k, that would have been £5k with the boiler upgrade scheme. I would say heat pumps dont necessarily have a payback on the capital cost. But the reduction in emissions is huge!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Nice. We're looking for a new project and have found a house with large plot that needs a lot of work. No cavity wall insulation, no double-glazing, garden needs redoing and still has that 1970's decor. So we're doing the numbers on ground source heating, insulating the whole house and solar (luckily it has a large south-facing roof pitch).
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle what I find disappointing is the 5k grant being eaten up by the installers profit rather than passed onto the customer. For me it works out they are charging 5k labour for 5 or 6 days work when the usual already expensive day rate is 300 to 500. I really like the arotherm plus.
@@handle1196 Hi Dan, that is interesting to hear, I am hoping the boiler upgrade scheme is offering some discount to customers. A heat pump install can be a big job that we want designing, sizing and installing carefully, but how cheap could / should an install be...? Is a tough question. I definitely don't want to hear examples of cheap installs that go wrong! I think the arotherm plus looks great as well as working well for us (even with cold weather!) Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle a day rate for an engineer is usually 300 to 500 depending on where you are in the country. I was told that a gas install, plant room only would take 5 days, heat pump around 6 days. I can purchase everything for 9000 but some companies want 16k before the bus scheme grant. Ive completed my heat loss calcs, i noticed some companies putting a huge markup on all materials. 3k more on a pump, 500 more on a wall controller etc. I'd have thought, 6 days labour, 9k of materials minus 5k grant.
Costs are prohibitive for most people, it isn't going to save money just cost a fortune in electric, you have to admit it just does not work, it about time we had a breath of realism here.
Hi Peter, thanks for the comment, I agree costs to install a heat pump are prohibitive for many. And would suggest there is a role for government and many landlords to help decarbonise buildings. I would argue that a well installed heat pump shouldn’t cost a fortune in electricity costs, and could be cheaper to run that a gas boiler. My system works and my calculation suggests, based on the price cap rates, we are now saving money vs a gas boiler. If a heat pump could be installed with solar PV then even cheaper (I haven’t done that yet). I guess the realism should include the risks that being reliant on gas give us… risks of future extreme weather linked to emissions, poor air quality, carbon monoxide poisoning, volatile prices, funding despots like Putin etc. The quicker we can get away from gas boilers, the better. And, heat pumps are basically the only option for doing so. Hope you’re having a good weekend Tom
Here in Ohio USA our minimum gas bill is $32 month even when we use zero gas. The fee pays for the pipes! Planning on going to heat pump in next year which is our only gas usage. Extra money should help offset electric cost increase. Thanks for the video!
Thanks Robert, similar set up here, until you remove a gas meter you have to pay to stay connected... even if you have disconnected all the gas. Great to hear you could take the step. I think you wont regret it!
I notice how much heat is thrown out from the air con units at my local supermarket to keep the fridges cold. Surely this adds to local warming? I just need to get a ASHP to use this free energy! Great channel, thanks.
Thanks for commenting Robert! I actually have a video talking through the impact of heat pumps on the local temperature... ruclips.net/video/VxmIWiEJoTk/видео.html I agree that air con systems will be making local temperature higher if installed in too much density, but ultimately the heat returns to where it is moved from. Which is why the fridges need constant cooling. And the refrigerant cycle is just recycling coolth from outside to the inside, and adding a small amount of heat from the electricity supply in the process. You are definitely identifying a potential source of heat that we should use in the future though... we have waste heat everywhere! If you walk past the exhaust of a swimming pool ventilation system, you will notice how warm it is, similar to many big buildings and as you identify, the cooling system at supermarkets. If we had heat pumps nearby, these systems would see a higher temperature and that would help increase efficiency. And maybe that is good design in dense locations. And finally - yes, air source heat pumps are taking free energy from one place and moving it to where we want it...! Thanks for engaging with the video! Tom
We have solar Pv and that makes a huge difference. We’re getting a battery soon and that will mean that our energy costs (per kWh) will plummet further. Keep up the good work, really enjoyed your informative video.
Yeah absolutely, we don’t have PV yet but with electrified heat, transport, hot water, cooking etc it makes so much sense to generate some locally! Thanks for commenting!
Tom very interesting info. May I ask the most important question. What was the cost of the total heat pump install from start to finish. I have a lpg combi boiler and to replace it without any extras will be £2.5k with 10 year warranty and future proof. So as a working class family this is acceptable and I don't have a hot water cylinder use what I need when I need it. I have 9kw solar and winter has its issues like it would not even charge my 5kw storage battery during a day. So Costs is the key,saving the planet is secondary.
Hi Gino - I’ll just ask you to have a think about the consequences of your last sentence… ‘saving the planet is secondary’? Where are we going to live?! Total cost of our system was ~£11k. LPG boiler is not future proof. It is already out of date. And subject to major variance of fuel supply. And will be costing you a lot to run. A heat pump would need a hot water cylinder. That would be part of the costs. We wouldn’t expect solar to work well in winter (short and cloudy days) but will still generate some electricity and contribute towards heat pump costs slightly. Autumn and spring it will be doing a great job. A 9 kW system will generate ~7200 kWh per year. Which would be much more than a heat pump needs, I realise generation tends to be in summer and heating in winter but there will be some synergy.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle great response, we can only help but individuals cannot stop the destruction of our world it's the big boys like China as well as a huge list that goes on and on, the UK sounds like it's one of the good country's but it's as bad as them all by our sourcing our waist which creates more comming back. We should ban cruise ships ,aircraft ,motor sport that alone would make a huge difference. I will have a heat pump but mine will work in conjunction with my lpg boiler as I do not want all my eggs in one basket. I am making changes by adding another 6kw of solar to increase winter production and replaced my small generator to deal with loads associated with heat pumps and ev chargers. If we have power cuts I will still have heating hot water and be able to use my EVs as normal. Just for info my last power cut was a duration of 3 days so like I said different sources and not just reply on one which is the way we are going. Let's hope our government builds more power stations to keep everyone using electric when they need to use it.
Hi David, thanks for sharing, I guess all heating systems are expensive to run in the colder months…? I think, at the current price cap rates, and at fairly average efficiencies a heat pump is more or less the same cost as a gas boiler, but much lower emissions! Tom
Hi Tom, just stumbled across this, thank you, really informative. I had an ASHP installed in Feb last year. (9kW Samsung system with internal gubbins made by Joule - approx £15k all in, including changing all radiators on our 4 bed detached house, in case anyone would like to know). Our motive was purely environmental, and to stop using gas altogether, which I’m pleased to say we have achieved with this. Anyone I speak to, and we do get lots of interest due to location of outside unit, thinks I am mad for chucking away a perfectly serviceable gas boiler for this, but I am happy with the decision and for me, it’s worth it knowing we are doing what we can to reduce our Impact on this small green planet. I’m on a green energy tariff with Octopus too, so can sleep soundly knowing that our electricity is generated without fossil fuels - assuming Octopus do as they say. I’m a little nervous for when our current 2 yr fixed rate ends in March ‘23, but am prepared as much as I can be! My initial plan was to install solar PV and batteries at the same time and become self suffice to for energy, but the costs were utterly prohibitive for us, so this remains a pipe dream for the foreseeable future. Anyway, glad your system is working well for you, and thanks for taking the time to explain things better than I ever could 👍
Hi Adam, great to hear from you. Pleased to hear of a system working well and the intentions of reducing emissions, you are not mad I can assure you! It is likely that your costs will go up in March '23, hopefully there will still be some price cap coming into the spring / summer, but even with that price cap, it will be quite the shock I think. I did a similar video based on the price cap rates that might help understand what is to come for you.- ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html Solar PV is definitely the next step in terms of costs and will pay for themselves, particularly if you can use a lot of the electricity they generate, batteries an added bonus, but not essential. Thanks for engaging! Tom
That's really helpful, thanks again. Yes, I reckon our costs will roughly double as things stand. My system has used ~2700kWh in 10 months, so I think we'll be not far off your usage depending what kind of winter we have. How would I work out how efficient my system is? I used a small local company to install my system, they are still finding thier feet with ASHP, so it's not been the smoothest set up sadly, and it's been a learning curve for both parties, but not 100% confident they know enough to ensure the system is running optimally. They are still looking at how we can improve water flow around my radiators downstairs as its not as good as it could be. Any sane person reading this must think I'm mad, with the patience of a Saint, given that the installer is still not done after 10 months, but we've never been without heating or hot water, and appreciate that they are learning too so I see it helping a local company improve. I should do a lesson learned blog when all done!
This climate change fiasco is turning cultish. There's nothing we can do to change the weather. It is beyond our control. All I see here is gov has seduced people unthinking they can make a difference when in fact your not making even the slightest difference at all.
Hi Tom, I would check the installation manual for the Vailant, what is the minimum required distance from the back wall? From the video it looks very close. ASHPs need clear air flow to extract thermal energy. My installers put my Daikin Altherma 3 150mm from the wall behind. I insisted they move it to at least 350mm from the wall, which is what the installation manual specifies. The COP improved about 20% overnight. If your installer is on the MCS register you can require them to move it. BTW I got a cop of 3.3 last year for space heating. But, the ASHP consumption was much better than expected, about 2000kwh for space heating of a Victorian 3 bed terrace. The gas boiler in previous years used over 9000kwh, so with electricity prices being usually 4x gas, the ASHP cost less to run for the year, in my case. Also I was WFH for most of winter 2021/2022.
Thanks for commenting Matthew, not the 1st person to notice that. The space at the rear is 250mm, the Vaillant installation doc suggests 200mm, BUT the free space on the RHS is only 200mm, which should be 500mm. I understand this is for access and maintenance rather than efficiency, but not great that they installed without following guidance. I reached out to Vaillant for comment but will go back to installer too. Brill to hear about your 20% improvement. I wonder whether moving slightly further out might help improve ours!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle hmm, it might help a bit. On the other hand your COP for the year isn't terrible. Mine was often below 2.5 during a very mild autumn, and the whole system was supposed to have a COP of 3.7 for the whole winter. I've got 3.3 this winter, even allowing for that fix, and I do live in Bristol, which is a bit milder than the North East. Although I should add they also checked the coolant charge in the system, becuase they had to drain it all off to move the compressor anyway. They said was a bit low and Daikin hadn't been putting enough in at the factory on other units they'd had. So I don't know how much of my improvement was that and how much was the extra space.
3.3 sounds like a good place to be! I have heard before that units are not filled completely out of the factory - it seems strange to me that a unit would be sold to an installer but not ready for commissioning...
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle The installers reckon Daikin were timing the refrigerant as they put it in rather than weighing it, and depending on the temp at the time it's built it could end up taking up a different volume. I did mention this to the Daikin reps at fullychargedshow this year. They weren't aware of it being a problem but they did take it seriously. It's something manufacturers need to make sure they get right, because it affects efficiency, and gives fuel to the people who claim heat pumps don't work.
BTW, one cheap improvement I'd suggest trying this winter is the Speed Comfort radiator fan. I got one in Feb for the large double radiator that's behind the sofa. The speed comfort pushes the warm air up and out into the room, instead of leaving it trapped. That radiator heats most of the living space downstairs and the thermostat is in the same room. On the days I switched it off consumption went up. On days with it on I was getting say 11kwh, without it that would jump to 13 o 14. It's not a scientific test but I'm fairly sure it kept the consumption down. Speed Comfort's site says I should get 3 for my long radiator, but one made a huge difference. They do make a little bit of noise, so I wouldn't have lots of them around the house.
Excellent video Tom, I’m in rural Worcestershire. Daikin ASHP with Mixergy cylinder fitted April 21. We used 4239kWh electric to generate 16044kWh heat. 3.78 SCOP in 220m2 bungalow from 2002. I have 4kW of solar PV. I used a Nest to control for the year. Now I’ve switched over to weather compensation to compare. Very interesting in your numbers. Probably more accurate than mine.
Thanks for commenting Julian. Very impressed with a sCOP that high. I think ours could be higher next year as I’ve learned a bit more about how to optimise the system! My numbers come from a heat meter and an electricity meter connected to the system, how do you work out yours? I imagine your PV provides a lot of the electricity the heat pump needs? And if the PV can heat a lot of the hot water, that may improve the sCOP too. I’d be interested to hear about moving to WC controls from a 3rd party controller!
My SCOP is calculated by knowing how much electric is consumed (via accurate electric meter to the ASHP) but excluding radiator circulation pump. Heat generated is from the Daikin ASHP read out (this is broken down by heat & h/w, but I just take the sum). You are correct that my solar PV diverts (via Solic 200) to heat my h/w with spare electric which improves efficiency. I also do not know how much of my electric used is grid vs solar PV - just the total. We didn’t change any radiators. And we have 10mm microbore drops to each radiator (from 32 or 28mm main runs in the loft)
Interesting! I think our electricity meter includes pump power so that would bring sCOPs a bit closer together but still think you are running much more efficiently! Do you have a grasp of what the COP has done over the summer with minimal / no heating demand and just hot water? It’s great to hear an example of a good install with fairly standard radiators in a normal home - I think a lot of what is said about heat pumps makes out that we need Passivhaus standards of insulation before they will work.
I love the honesty of this video. I will wait and see if a more efficient heat pump comes out before the grand stops. Not looking to spend more for less.
Thanks ICO - I should say that since this video, changes to price cap, and with some improvements to our efficiency, I think I am now saving compared to a gas boiler. I did an update video here … ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE If / when we were able to get solar PV, we would save even more. I guess the wider benefits - better air quality, no carbon monoxide risk, lower CO2 emissions, and we’ve actually found it more comfortable, for a similar cost.
Good stuff Tom Heat pumps are great if you are into reducing carbon foot printing over your energy bills, but I think its a lot to pay the energy suppliers just to keep almost warm for the best part of the year, and have your mass hot water storage thermostat clicking on more regularly due to it loosing heat and having a low recovery rate once the "warm" water has been drawn off. I also work with refrigeration/aircon heat pumps, as well as gas, electrical, and other mechanical equipment. Its very rare I actually recommend and fit an air sourced system for heating, I only recommend and fit air con systems for cooling, and advise my customers that the system has an heating function should they wish to use it, but to keep an eye on their electric bill and compare it to their gas bill if they have a gas supply to check if their costs go up, and the costs usually do go up. If I sold them an air sourced heat pump, I would feel like I'm mis selling a product to them, it would be like selling them a car that cost nearly twice as much as the one they bought 3-5 years ago, and didn't offer the same MPG or acceleration performance. I would always recommend gas heating for affordability and economy with most households, unless they were more keen and sold on being "green". I do however fit the occasional ground sourced and heat recovery/scavenged heat pump systems only when I'm asked, and I leave it them to purchase a system that I have designed for them, usually only the high end though. The overall COP is more constant, but in the case of the ground source, it still works out more expensive than gas. And of course, a large garden is needed, even for an augured ground coil insert, a suitably sized area of garden is still required, and a soft strata for both scenarios. The heat recovery scavenged systems are much more effective and economical, as the luxury of free wasted heat is available to recover and re use, it just means that the flue chimney heat exchanger section from the industrial ovens has to be dismantled for cleaning more regularly, due to the process waste condensing in the stack due to a lower dew point point now existing by removing the heat from it. Then there's the water from the evaporative coolers on the ammonia and other industrial refrigerated plants, at some point when the outdoor conditions are optimally ideal, the flow to the evaporative water on the condensers can be reduced so that the cooling water doesn't evaporate, and can be diverted to a heat exchanger for a heat pump system. The water is chemically treated, and scale content is reduced, so it can be dumped back to the cooling water reservoir. It actually offers more efficient cooling to the condenser, and reduces the amount of chemicals to retreat it and reduces the make up water to top off the return water. In any of the cases of heat recovery, the optimum compressor/pot back pressure has to be maintained by maintaining a specific superheat, otherwise the COP swings back towards an air source heat pump or worse, defeating the object of recovering wasted heat, even though the heat source is free and more available than humid fresh air. With the current air sourced technology, the only way to make it more commercially viable is for the greedy fat cats to keep on increasing the gas prices so they are higher than electricity, but they know if they do this, their shares will plummet. Hydrogen will be more a viable option for future energy for heating sources, or maybe a combination of both especially for domestic use. The hydrogen boilers may need a catalyst or other type of capture system to neutralise the NOx emissions, and of course the processing cost has to come down otherwise it won't be getting sold. Digressing Some or more folk might even open up their chimney breasts a go back to coal fires and take the risk of being bollocked or fined by the wonderful council if the price hike increases. If most houses actually did take that option and just used their gas heating systems to supplement, it would be interesting to see the outcome. Probably the rich and posh, and other folk who believe everything they read and hear with nothing else better to do would probably make the complaints. Even if a carbon capture and de sulpherisation system was installed in the chimney, the overall layout cost of installing, running, and maintaining might be cheaper than a heat pump system and being held to ransom as a captive audience by the energy companies. The CO2 and sulphuric by products could be sold onto the industries that use it as part of their processes, reducing the need to manufacture and mining. Its just the renewable factor that would be the main issue, unless of course its a biomass or domestic waste, which the council allow to be incerated, usually not making use of the heat generated, and hopefully monitoring and keeping the stack emissions to zero. Lets hope they don't have any double standards complying with the clan air act. I will also add, I live in an apartment block in a listed old mill with no garden, and nothing can be installed on the exterior unless it blends in with the date line of the building, and of course no noise. Access would be near impossible, and expensive. I was approached by a customer a few years ago about installing an air con system/heat pump who lived in a similar situation, as they had been told how great and environmentally friendly they were compared to gas heating. They were quoted for air sourced systems by other company sales men. Who told them that the condenser unit wouldn't need to be accessed ever again once it was installed on the outside wall of the 3rd floor, and scaffolding would be required only once costing around 5 k on top of the 13 k for the system. It was a mews type apartment where they lived, again nothing could be installed on the outside walls, not even a barrel or water butt on the ground to collect top water/white water, so why were the other companies quoting for a system that needed to be mounted on an outside wall is any ones guess. The other companies didn't offer an alternative heat pump application, such as maybe installing the outdoor unit inside the apartment building inside a purpose built cupboard or wardrobe, removing a window or part of a window to convert into a vent to supply a constant airflow in a ducted system. They got in touch with me, and I asked them if they were on a fixed annual charge tariff for their water rates with no water meter, and suggested a water cooled/heat recovery system installed inside the building, and they were so pleased that this could be done as an alternative to fitting the unit outside where it was forbidden. They invited me to their home to quote for the system, but I did advise that the running costs could still be higher than their gas central heating system, but they were dead set sold on a heat pump. The job was still expensive but almost half the price of what he had been quoted, in the worst case scenario the system uses an average of around a cubic meter or more an hour for cooling having a COP of around 3.5 - 4, and around 5 -5.5 for heating, using about half of a cubic meter for heating water, with scavenging heat from 4 air handlers. I decided to use a dual primary and secondary indirect glycol plate heat exchanger, so the secondary supplying the mass storage tank could be isolated and drained, and removed during a service visit to descale, without having to carry out a fridge system break in. Due to the small size of the heat exchanger though, it is optimised to reject heat into the water to around 47 C, so in cooling mode, it just simply dumps the excess warm water that doesn't get drawn off or used for cooling, down the drain. I suggested that it could feed a neighbouring properties mass storage makeup water, but the apartment rules forbid it. The heat recovery rate is always the classic problem and one of the main downsides with heat pumps though. If the system was on a water meter, it wouldn't provide economical cooling or heating as the make up water would be charged per the amount used, and the amount of make up water would have to be throttled down with the risk of reducing the efficiency of the fridge system by causing a higher superheat. Making it much cheaper to heat with gas. Even if the condensate water from the air handlers was used to top up the make up water. The only major problem with this type of system is, the customer lives in Kent, and they can't get anyone local to service it, they tell me that other engineers get scared as soon as they look at it, because they are only used to installing air sourced splits, and their skill level and knowledge, and perception of heat rejection and absorption is limited, especially when a medium other than air is used. Gas central heating is more straight forward and more reliable than most heat pump applications, as long as there's a gas supply to a building, a suitable point to exhaust the gas fumes and maybe a requirement for ventilation. Gas heating has been tried and tested for a lot of years, it works well and will continue to work well, requiring only regular safety checks, and minor servicing that doesn't take 5 hours, 10, hours 24 hours or more of carrying out a system break in to replace components then a long tightness test, leak test, vack down and recharge etc. And there are plenty of gas engineers that know there stuff who install and understand the mechanics of a boiler and a heating system, compared with most aircon and heat pump engineers. That unfortunately just seem to be mainly split bashers and installers that really need to brush up on their knowledge and improve their skill set. Otherwise, if heat pumps do become more than an alternative option, the energy efficiency claims will be much lower than the manufacturers claim at the design stage, resulting with customers wishing they had stuck with or chosen gas heating.
Hi Poorman Skint - thanks for the comprehensive message. Ultimately it boils down to whether you recognise there is a climate emergency or not. If you do, we need to move away from fossil fuels as soon as possible. If you don't, then you need to look at the science, look at the impact of extreme weather this year in pakistan and europe, think about the numbers of people impacted by our wasteful lives and then move away from fossil fuels as quickly as possible. Gas boilers are not an option in a low carbon economy. Hydrogen boilers would be irresponsible and expensive when there is a requirement for hydrogen already that we currently meet by very high carbon sources of hydrogen. Heat pumps are the only option for about 70-80% of homes.
Mmmm, I wonder what caused world disasters before fossil fuels were consumed. Lets not forget Doggerland, now there's a place that disappeared before the Greek and Roman Empires ever existed, maybe they did consume fossil fuels after all back then, but there's no evidence or anything recorded, so maybe not. Also let us not forget Pompei, maybe something they were using back then caused things like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, Tsunamis, abnormal Elnino's, solar flares, shifting magnetic poles, North and South tropical equators having a variable distance than they are shown on a globe, the rotation of outer spiral arms of the Milky way that pass through varying amounts of entropical masses having variable energy levels that can cause temperatures to increase and decrease within anything that passes through it. Maybe all that kind of stuff didn't really happen back then, they just made some of it up to make history sound exciting. Hydrogen burners have been around for a few years now, and most leading brands of gas boilers are hydrogen ready, the networks are already starting to add blue and green hydrogen to gas supplies, and it is planned to have around 80% of gas consumers running purely on green hydrogen between 2035 and 2050. The main problem will be NOx in the emissions, this can be reduced to almost nothing using EGR and a catalyst. The technology is being improved all the time. Grey hydrogen is slowly being phased out, and will not be used to supply fuel for heating. There is nothing irresponsible about hydrogen, it is the future first choice for heat sources due to practicality and simplicity. Heat pumps are far too fragile overall to support an economical means of heating application. Most of the gas burners that I work with range between 350 KW and 650 KW, there is no way that an heat pump could support the heat requirement and the amount of energy that an industrial process requires, let alone a small steam boiler for commercial applications. Air sourced heat pumps will remain as a non ideal option for heating due to their high outlay and high running costs, that are not practically comparable to the lower outlay and running costs and the performance of gas heating. In addition, to the poor specification and under sized designs of het pumps, that are only efficient for up to the first week of their install by the majority of split bashers who just seem like they are almost clueless about refrigeration, and aircon/heatpump in general. Along with the companies that sell a product that will only offer a non constant and fragile performance based on the ideology of a not too low single figured humid day, for them to match the high COP and SEER claims. Their performance is about as reliable as a British weather forecast. Their maintenance costs are much higher than a gas boiler, and the medium inside a heat pump has a very high TEWI, higher than Natural Gas or Hydrogen. Heat pumps are good if there is a reliable and constant source of wasted heat that can be scavenged and recycled, in which case the COP and SEER will be almost constant. But will only support the requirements of a low background heat, warm water for washing and bathing with a poor heat heat recovery rate, much lower than gas or electric heating. Carbon and sulphuric capture have been available since the mid 80s for when fossil fuels are consumed for any application, but they are currently expensive, but maybe cheaper than installing and running a heat pump. Leaving only the problem with renewables. Time will tell. Good luck with your air sourced heat pumps.
HI Poorman Skint - in terms of the historical changes in climate, the earth has never seen (or hasnt since humans were around) such rapid warming as we have seen in the last 200 years. 1.1-1.2°C warmer on average today than pre-industrial times. That means the earth's weather systems have changed, permanently. There is no time previously where temperature has changed that quickly. Your perspective on hydrogen is fairly idealistic I am afraid. Did you see the report this week on hydrogen for heat? www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(22)00416-0 this was covered in lots of news outlets too - www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/27/hydrogen-is-unsuitable-for-home-heating-review-concludes www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63050910.amp www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/hydrogen-heating-homes-energy-britain-b2176498.html In my work we are installing heat pumps of the kind of load you are suggesting. Although I agree there is a case for using hydrogen to decarbonise industrial processes, just not home heating. Green hydrogen will be a prescious fuel, and there are several use cases that we should prioritise before we get to heating. Have you seen Liebriech's hydrogen ladder? www.liebreich.com/the-clean-hydrogen-ladder-now-updated-to-v4-1/ A lot of what you are saying is talking about refrigerant based systems (like air to air heating and cooling systems). An air to water heat pump like ours has a small amount of propane working fluid that is contained in the heat pump, propane has a GWP (global warming potential) 3.3x higher than CO2, but it is used in very small quantities and not burnt. It does not offer coolinng, so SEER is not relevant. It would be great to chat these issues through with you in more detail, as I think, although you have extensive knowledge on this, you have some misunderstanding! Get in touch with tom.bray@me.com if you fancied a call Tom
As an electrician I see things in a different way. I fitted an 8kW solar voltaic system on my roof, then a unit called an iboost going into an emersion tank with two 1.5kW elements this works with any surplus electricity being diverted into the tank after the house has been satisfied rather than going back to the grid. The tank is also supplied by a gas boiler for the winter months when solar is low.The gas boiler is turned on about the second week of Sep.as a back up for the increasingly cloudy days and reducing solar,it then stays on untill about the first week of March when it is switched off. We have a log burner for heating and this is more than adequate. The winter bill for gas and electricity go's up but is paid back through summer with savings and grid payments for the solar energy. Our total bill on today's predictions including wood and running a hot tub and an electric aga is £1750.00. The solar installation with 8kW of battery back up came to £7800 this was fitted about two years ago. As regards the battery's life they are expected to last approx 7-10 years replacement is on a decending scale as technology improves. To have an air source heat pump fitted I had one costed, £25000. Since I've built an extension we could fit more panels and even then we wouldn't hit £25000! The only maintenance required is to wash the panels that's done by the window cleaner for a tenner every quarter.
@@phillipneale5256 Hi Phillip - thanks for this. It is good to hear other experiences of new technology. A big solar system supporting hot water and a battery is definitely going to be value for money, and provide you with a lot of the electricity you need. I guess the challenge is on the use of gas, and to some extent the log burner . Both will still have CO2 emissions that we will need to reduce in the coming years (although CO2 emissions from a log burner will be pretty low emissions if you can use dead wood and avoid chopping down trees). A heat pump has been a great step for our house, and reduces emissions linked to heating by 70% today, and will continue to get lower as the national grid gets cleaner. I must admit to being surprised at £25000 for a heat pump. I assume you live in a big house? Possible quite uninsulated? What were they proposing? Our system was worth around £11k and included a new hot water tank and full replacement of radiators. This is still a lot of money, but with the £5k boiler upgrade scheme grant, costs start to become reasonable. Tom
Hi Tom, Solar and Pumps go hand in hand, if you are going Solar the single biggest regret from other RUclipsr's who'd fitted solar was not utilizing their roof for the biggest array they could afford. Especially with a Pump over winter bigger the array the better. We took that on board our house has east west and ended up with 9.3KW array then got a pump.
Fantastic! Yes I agree maximising solar makes sense if you can afford it. For future EV charging as well as heat pump etc. We’ll do our best when we come to it!
Thanks for the informative video, myself and partner are now researching heat pumps for our new house. Apologies if already mentioned but what type of heat pump do you use, air or ground? Thanks.
Hi Keith, pleased to be of help. Our heat pump is an air source heat pump, i.e. taking heat from outside our house and moving it inside. Ours works well in our Victorian Terrace that isn't too well insulated, but newer, more insulated homes, with a well installed system, and operated efficiently, would be great too!
Hi Tim, great series and I too love my heat pump. I get a COP of closer to 5 but that is with a 100% underfloor system, oh and its in Spain which is slightly warmer on average! I think have seen mentioned on twitter but I thought I would mention again. The air flow looks like it may be restricted around your heat pump. If it is creating a cold well this will especially in very cold weather really impact your performance. Looks forward to some updates this winter!
Thanks Adam, a COP of 5 - we can only dream! I have had a look at the installation instructions for the uniti - page 69 here - www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-plus/arotherm-plus-operating-installation-and-maintenance-instructions-1799368.pdf - dimension D is the one I might be concerned about, so I will measure this later on, the others I think have plenty space. I don't think the area because a cold well as is quite exposed to wind / air movement but there is some risk. Hoping we can get a bit better COP this winter now I am more comfortable with how the system works and how to maintain comfortable temperatures. We shall see! Tom
@@bobboscarato1313 Hi Bob - I have an air source heat pump, but I think Adam's COPs are higher because the average temperature is much higher in Spain, a heat pump operating at 5 degrees is much more efficient that a heat pump at -5!
@@bobboscarato1313 Hi Bob, yes what Tom has said below is correct. Rare for it to get below 0 where my house is. But to add, I have underfloor in the whole house. Spring and autumn using weather compensation flow temps are between 30-33 oC. Only in Dec/Jan do they get to the giddy heights of 35. So it means the heat pump is very efficient. This would also help if I was still on Gas, but even better with a HP.
Hi Anthony - thanks for commenting, I have discussed that in detail on other videos across my channel but to save you watching a load of my drivel.... I was fortunate enough to be part of a fully funded scheme where I live. This would have cost £11k to install almost 2 years ago. If we had installed this, funding ourselves, we would have been eligible for the renewable heat incentive, that would have paid for the majority of the install over 7 years. Improvements to our home - we bought this house back in 2018 and refurbished it. We installed double glazing (£6k), and loft insulation (£300), and built a small extension at the rear of the property (we didn't ever want to fully account for the costs of this as it was more than we wanted to accept... all went on our mortgage). There is more work we could do to insulate better (floor, walls) and I would like to do more in the future. The majority of the house hasn't been upgraded (other than the glazing), so is more or less as built in 1890. The system is performing well with an efficiency of just about 3 since installation. I think this now means we are breaking even with our old gas boiler. In the future I would like to install solar panels (roof needs some work before we do that), that will reduce costs further. Similarly, I have bought into the 2nd round of the Ripple Energy Scheme, which will give me some money off our electricity bills for the next 25 years. Thanks - hope that is interesting / helpful Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks for the extensive reply Tom. Not bad at all getting the heat pump for free! Was that 11k minus the 5k grant if you funded it yourself? I wasn't quite ready for a heat pump I felt it needs to be proven more before I take the leap. However I am interested in low temperature heating so i got a Vaillant boiler with weather compensation and hot water priority along with oversized radiators and UFH controlled by sensocomfort, I'm able to run radiators at a curve of 0.7 and UFH at 0.45. Boiler running at a flow temp of 40-42c on a cold day Hopefully if heat pumps take off in future I will be able to put one in without too much distruption. Would be nice to be able to cool the underfloor heating in summer by reversing the heat pump. Enjoyed your vid will look forward to future updates
Yes it was a great result for us! Yes £11k total cost so would have been £6k with grant. I suspect running a new boiler at low temperatures and weather compensated as you describe will mean your gas use is very low, so that’s a great step forward. And sounds like your house is pretty much ready for a heat pump at 42-43°. Thanks for the comment. All the best. Tom
Hello Tom Bray; make sure solar cells are installed on the ground and not on the roof. My neighbor did that 20 years ago and the shingle roof had to be replaced. They tore down all the solar cells for good. It was a very expensive learning experience. However if you have a slate or tile roof, it may be alright. Cheers from Tomball, Texas.-
Hi Bob - thanks so much for messaging. Interesting about roof replacement and solar PV, we don't have much space around our house so the roof would be an attractive option, and I would hope that for any future maintenance I would employ a contractor who would be sensitive to both the structure of the house and the solar panels installed, but take the point that solar on a roof can cause future complications! Most of the roofs in the UK are slate or tile but I am sure there are similar issues. Great to hear my videos are being watched in Texas!
Shingles are not permitted on residential properties in the UK under our building regulations, because they're junk and belong on garden sheds :D Slate or Tile over here.
@@dorsetengineering We have home owners associations which are real bad. I park my 20 y/o commercial truck which I use as a private car now. Lawyer sent letter to HOA!
Worth mentioning that when (not if) the prices of gas and electricity are properly adjusted so the gas price isn't setting the electricity price, then your system will really come into its own and start to pay for itself
Definitely! It would be interesting to see how that might be approached, I guess the price of electricity is the cost to meet the last bit of demand, otherwise the last generator would be losing money to meet the demand. Which is why gas (or coal), which tends to be the peaking plant, sets the price. The more renewable generation we have the less need for the peaking plant, and potentially a lower cost. I know there is thinking about changing how the market works but not sure how we would ensure we have enough energy…!
Hi Chris - I’m not sure heat pumps are ever going to ‘payback’ but if we can get cheap finance or a grant then it could help reduce costs. I would say that many people buy a wide range of things without considering payback but because they want a change in lifestyle - a new kitchen, a big TV, a new car etc. A heat pump could be seen in this way - ‘I want to reduce my emissions, reduce the impact on the environment, reduce my reliance on Putin’s gas, improve my comfort, so, I am going to get rid of my gas boiler and install a heat pump’ - a bonus could be if reduces monthly outgoings a little, and could add value to a house.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Yep, I understand the concept but a lot of people can't afford the extra. Cheap finance or grants don't really change that cost, either delay or redistribute the cost. I'm not anti, I just think it needs to be a hell of a lot cheaper if you want to take people along with your thinking.
@@ChrisLee-yr7tz I would say that redistributing costs to those that have caused the climate crisis (i.e. those oil and gas companies that are makings £100s billions profit each year at the moment) sounds like a very fair way of paying for low carbon heating systems!
Very true - but in spring and autumn when there is some heating and some solar PV - it works quite nicely. If we look at the 12 months as a whole a decarbonised system could be a very low cost system!
Thanks for this Tom, very useful. Just putting in a heat pump to get off oil central heating. Also installing solar and battery solution, so should only ever be topping up our battery on the low rate overnight. Looking forward to capturing data, but from what I can see, we will be drastically reducing our emissions and saving money over the next few years. 👍
Thanks Kyle, pleased it is helpful. I am sure moving from oil to a heat pump, and installing solar, will see a big drop in costs, and massive drop in emissions!
So I'm in on Ripple, makes sense. Solar intergated into the roof is great, the trays mean the panels are flush to the roof. I suspect that when gas goes through the roof next year you will be quids in. Not just about the money though...
It does make sense to generate locally to power heating. With the rates announced today the gap between heating with our heat pump and our old gas boiler is definitely closing, I think it could now be within 15%
My only concerns about your setup is the heat pump looks very boxed in, not favourable from an installation point of view. ( I install heat pumps for a living ) , what curve setting are you running, what your max flow temperature for heating?.
Hi Ken, thanks for the comment, I’ve come across you before via the Betatech podcast and twitter so happy to connect. You’re not the 1st person to question the position of the heat pump, it does meet manufacturers installation recommendations except for on the right hand side, which I understand is for access for maintenance, rather than to ensure performance. It is something I’ve been meaning to raise with the installer. I do tinker a bit with the curve but tends to be around 0.75. For the time I am talking about in this video I suspect it was higher with bigger swings in set back etc. Max heating flow temp is 50°, although I am not sure it ever gets that high on that curve. Thanks for commenting, your one of a bunch of very helpful installers that I’ve followed online! Tom
Yeah, spot on. Although our hob/cooker is fairly new and we aren't planning to have a big outlay in the short term for a new cooker. And... most importantly, my wife isn't sure about cooking on an induction hob, I like it (cleaner, no problems with air quality, quicker heat etc) so we are paying the £105ish per year for gas cooking until we are ready to upgrade the cooker (and I have convinced my wife!)
It's good to see your calculations. However, when calculating it against your old gas boiler would mean you would have to service your gas boiler and run it as officiant as possible and maybe even at a lower temperature.
Fair point. I guess I was trying to be as conservative as possible. We did have our boiler serviced fairly often and ran it quite low. But I would be surprised if the efficiency was as high as I assumed. I suspect the heat pump delivered more heat than the gas boiler did, partly because I was happier to have it running rather than worried about burning gas!
Heat pumps really work out if you have solar panels as well, My electric meter is actually running backwards during the summer months, building up a fund to pay for the more expensive winter bills. Yearly costs are cheaper than having gas.
Great stuff! We don’t have solar panels (yet) but our next door neighbour has just installed PV, a heat pump and a battery and is enjoying the summer payments!
Excuse me but some of us can produce our own gas, and not just in the garden. Really informative well balanced analysis, so thank you. We have had solar panels for about 8 years, I would certainly recommend them. I'm certain the positives of living in a terrace far out weigh the negatives. Thanks for the vid.
Hi Steve - unless a house is well insulated, a gas boiler will cost a fortune to run and is inefficient, and contributes to poor air quality in urban areas. Our heat pump is cheaper to run that a gas boiler at today’s price guarantee rates and works well in our area of terraced housing. And our house is a Victorian terrace with some double glazing and some loft insulation, so not well insulated but not too poorly insulated. Sorry that your experience is different. Thanks for the comment Tom
It's the energy part that's interesting. You're using 3 times less energy. On the cost / CO2 side, look into a few smaller VAWT systems. That's what I'm looking into to offset my heat pump bills. The cost isn't as interesting as people think. Once you move all your energy to electricity you can start applying local generation options. Heat pumps and solar panels don't work well together. Heat pumps reduce your summer electricity usage. However heat pumps and EVs do great together.
Hi Kevin - thanks for messaging. I think you’re spot on with the energy point. One of the main reasons why I advocate for more heat pumps. We need a smaller energy system (a bit more nuanced than that but….) I’d be really interested in what you find around VAWT. I’m cautious about wind in built up areas but would be happy to learn more. Solar panels and heat pumps work well together in the spring and autumn. Particularly if you have any east facing roof space. But I agree it’s not perfect. I’m interested in your point about heat pumps and EVs - what do you think makes them work well together? Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle ok, yes, my panels just face south. An E/W orientation is a good idea. My point about solar PV and EVs is that EV batteries are good places to dump excess PV energy. Meanwhile the annual production curve for PV vs the usage curve for a heat pump is that they're out of sync. Solar is at its height when the heat pump is at its min usage and vice versa in winter. This winter I hope to get some stats on VAWTs. But I live in a rural area
It is a good question, a couple of points in response... 1) over the last 20-30 years, through energy efficiency, through losing some industrial process, the electricity demand in the UK has gone down, so... there is some spare capacity in the system to use. 2) Due to the efficiency of heat pumps (300% compared to 90% in a boiler), we are actually using a substantial amount less 'energy' i.e. rather than burning gas in a boiler, we could burn it in a power station to make electricity and still need less gas. 3) Electric vehicles (and to some extent heat pumps with hot water tanks) although us to shift when we use electricity i.e. charge a battery overnight when we have lower demand. This means that we don't necessarily need more generation capacity if we can spread when we do the charging. 4) we have built interconnectors with our neighbours that mean we can share electricity as it is needed, utilizing nuclear power in france, hydro-electric power in norway and sending our wind power when we have too much. It is likely that, over several countries, we have more than enough slack to take up some increase in demand It is likely that we will need to strengthen electrical infrastructure but probably not as much as you might think. Our heat pump, on the coldest day, draws less power than a kettle, so the electricity supply to our home didn't need an upgrade to fit it. If / when the whole street gets a heat pump, the substation upstream may need an upgrade, and that should be planned in as part of maintenance and refurbishment. Similarly, as we have more electricity demand, we can plan to increase generation. This isn't happening overnight (although I might want it to!) Tom
Assuming 10% was hot water, and that was overnight…*and* your COP would have been lower for hot water and therefore *higher* for heating - I think it might be close to parity. Also worth considering the grid will clean up so you’ll reduce CO2 even more, and over time electricity will need to become cheaper and gas more expensive as we transition so you’ll start to see higher savings
Absolutely! Over the summer the COP has been around 2.3-2.4, ie only hot water. I am expecting next year to be a bit better as we had some problems with heating in October that meant we didn’t really use the system properly. Also, when first installed, the hot water was on immersion only, so we may see much better COPs next year! Way too nuanced for an 8 minute video…! And you’re spot on about CO2 and the grid. If we electrify things we reduce emissions year on year (or that’s the plan). Where we live I think the emissions are actually lower than the average for the UK (that’s what national grid’s ESO suggests) and it will get better! And, yes, if electricity and gas tariffs move closer together, we’ll see savings with a heat pump. Magic! Thanks for commenting!
Hi Michael - thanks for commenting, over the year I played with the settings a bit trying to maintain comfort but improve efficiency. I think during most of the heating season I was at a weather compensation curve of about 1.1-1.2. I am going to try the next heating season at a lower curve and see how we do. Obviously the lower we go the better the efficiency. We shall see!
Hi Adrian - if I remember last winter correctly, we tend to have the house at a minimum of 19 degrees, and a set back at night of 17. We have a small area of underfloor heating but mainly radiators 👍
My electric bill for winter was before fitting 400, after fitting this year 4000, so stuff the emissions putting a gas boiler back on will save me thousands
Hi Mr UK, what was your gas bill? Are you taking into account the energy crisis and increase in bills? Would be happy to have a call to talk through how you can increase efficiency and reduce costs Tom
Hi Hazmat, you are spot on. At the moment we have a gas hob that is in good nick and doesn't need replacing, aaaannnnd, most importantly, although I like cooking on an induction hob, my wife isn't convinced. We will stick with the gas hob for now, pay the uplift for a while but then when we might need to replace, we could look to go electric. The impact of our hob is tiny in terms of emissions. We have used less than 4m3 of gas this year which is about 7.5 kg of CO2 emissions. We'll get there one day, but not quite!
Hi Alex, if you mean by inverter heat pump that it has a variable output, the answer is yes, it can ramp up and down as required for the heat demand of the building. I would say this is key to maximising efficiency, if we can control the output of the heat pump with weather compensation we can ensure it is always working as efficiently as we need Thanks for the question! Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks for the response. Also, does the variable output work with A/C too? I've seen heat pumps with variable fans but with single-stage cooling. Are these considered inverters?
Hi Alex - I am not sure to be honest, I don't tend to use the word inverter in describing heat pump systems. The compressor is the interesting bit within a heat pump, and these are often 'scroll' compressors that can ramp up and down to deliver different amounts of heat or cooling, alongside fan speed.
You could add some Battery storage (very useful when you finally get PV too) and Octopus GO and charge the EV and the Batteries at cheap rate (currently 7.5p) and run the house and Heat Pump at off peak rates. Not only is this much cheaper but by load shifting you reduce CO2 as off-peak energy has the lowest CO2. Peak time is when they need to fire up all the coal stations etc to meet demand, not ideal. At current electric prices the battery RoI is suddenly a lot more palatable.
Hi Bm97ppc - you might be right. A battery is probably pretty financially attractive, and in many ways offers similar capacity to a hot water tank - energy storage. I haven’t done the maths on the CO2 benefit of charging overnight to deliver in the day or at peak but you’re right, there will be some. Something we might consider when we finally get PV!
Which is fine until more and more people start doing that. When your supplier announces they're getting rid of the cheap nighttime rate, where will you be then? Looking to buy a cheap gas boiler probably.
@@Chris-hy6jy Hi Chris, under no circumstances will I be moving back to a gas boiler. Absolutely not. The reason why cheap night-time rates exist is because there is a reduction in demand overnight, this may change with EV charging, batteries etc and if it does then a flat rate would be fine. Under the price cap tariffs published by government, and that will come into force on the 1st October - www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-bills-support/energy-bills-support-factsheet-8-september-2022 - ~34p elec and ~10p gas on the standard variable tariff. My system will pretty much break even with a gas boiler. Moving back to gas risks increasing costs for heating. And that removes the whole purpose of moving away from gas in the 1st place, the incredible emissions that come from a gas boiler and the 65-70% drop in emissions a heat pump provides.
@@Chris-hy6jy Hi Chris - it doesn't actually, if we assumed electricity was 100% clean then the reduction in emissions would be 100%. The assumption I am making is as all carbon reporting in the UK, using the carbon factor set out by BEIS for 2022 - www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2022 The reporting methodology suggests that a unit of electricity will emit 0.193 kg of CO2, whilst a unit of natural gas will emit 0.18 kg CO2. So with an efficiency of 2.96 a heat pump like ours would emit 0.065 kg CO2 for every unit of heat, whilst a gas boiler with an efficiency of 95% would emit 0.189 kg CO2. Therefore our heat pump would be 65.6% lower emissions than an efficient gas boiler. In the last 12 months gas power stations generated just under 40% of our power, wind, just over 20%, solar, just over 4%, so it is mis-leading to suggest that all power is generated by gas - www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-12-months/ I actually live in a part of the UK where grid emissions are lower than the average (the North East) - i.e. we have a lot of low carbon generation and a low amount of demand, but we use the national figures as the reporting convention suggests.
A very good and honest video. On top of the extra cost of actually heating the house the capital cost of a heat pump system is also much higher than a gas boiler (before any Govt subsidy). Yes, the cost of heating would be lower for a modern well insulated house but most houses in the UK were built in the 1950s or earlier. Some houses are just not suitable for a heat pump because they cannot be sufficiently insulated. Tom. If you can be bothered. I would like to know what the costs would look like with the much higher electricity costs after the 1 October 2022. In fact, it would be good to know what the economics would look like if the Govt had not brought in the special cap price.
Thanks for the comment Brian. I have gone through a few of your points in other videos but happy to revisit here. Our house is 1890s built, we have retrofit double glazing and a loft full of insulation, as well as a modern extension at the rear. There will be many homes similar to ours, and with a light touch (glazing and loft) will have enough insulation to run a heat pump in a fairly efficient manner. The total cost of our installation was about ~£11k, we were lucky to be part of a research project in the North East so that was funded, but would have been ~£6k with the boiler upgrade scheme grant. I have done a video about the costs with the october price guarantee - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html, it will now break even with our old gas boiler, and if I can improve efficiency (looks like 10% improvement compared to last year already) then will offer savings. Difficult to speculate on costs with no government intervention, but as long as the ratio between gas and electricity is 1:3.5 (or less) almost all heat pumps will at least beak even, if not make savings. What do you think? Is that a good summary?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thank you for your reply Tom. I will watch your other video too. It is interesting that the ratio between the gas:electric price ('the spark spread') is so crucial. I help people do the economics on power station projects, grid development and energy policy so it's interesting to hear from real people doing these projects at the household level. So much is spin from Govt ministers, lobbyists and project promoters that is wildly exaggerated. If millions of homes were suddenly to install heat pumps, solar PV, batteries and electric cars, it transforms our electric and gas system. On the other hand if that doesn't happen then we need many more conventional power stations to avoid blackouts like this winter. The people that I work with plop £1 billion on the table to build a power station that will last 20 years and will burn £1 million of gas just to warm them up this winter before they can generate. The decisions you are making and millions of families like yours make a lot of difference to what we need to do at our end.
Thanks for an informative video. I’m at the point of deciding either a ASHP with a Mixergy tank or a thermodynamic panel for my hot water and then something to heat just my wet UFH, can’t decode which.
Thanks for commenting Gavin. I haven't come across themodynamic panels before, a quick google doesn't give me many examples of systems working in the UK. Happy to hear about a new (to me) technology though if you have any info! Unless you mean solar thermal panels? Solar thermal on its own won't be able to give you hot water all year round, there will be dark and cloudy weeks in the winter where output will be very low, so you would need an immersion coil to get hot water tanks to temperature. If solar thermal was working alongside an air source heat pump you would benefit from free hot water 2/3rds of the year and then would have an efficient source of hot water the other third. Installing both would add to cost and can make a system a bit more complex but would be very efficient. The mixergy tank is pretty clever in how it heats water. We just have the standard hot water tank from the manufacturer, well insulated, simple but does the job! If you have UFH - a heat pump would be a really great addition Tom
Have a look at SAHP in Malden Tom, their thermodynamic panel provides all your hot water requirements year round using the reverse technology of fridges! They have their own cylinders or a conversion unit to work with your existing tank.
@@gavinshaw6382 thanks Gavin, new technology to me. I guess majority of heat demand in a home would be for space heating, rather than domestic hot water, but this looks like an interesting concept!
May be I am missing something but I don't think you are including the cost of the unit and installation in your figures? Likewise the solar panels that you mentioned. These items have an estimated estimate life, so you should include a depreciation cost into your numbers to account for replacement (likewise your gas boiler comparison)
Hi Vvwalker - no for operational costs I am just comparing cost for X kWh of gas vs Y kWh of electricity to power the heat pump. At given prices. You are right a full economic assessment of either system would have a life cycle cost included. This might be too much detail to communicate simply on RUclips..! But I’ll try to be clearer next time. Best Tom
Fascinating video - keep it up! We just renovated our house and went for a gas combi. I now wish we went for a heat pump - but our house is a Victorian 3 bed semi and it leaks heat like anything.
Thanks Afnan, kind of you to message. Sounds like we have fairly similar homes - we have been really comfortable with a heat pump, hopefully you'll be ready in the next 5-10 years!
Thanks Raz, I’ve had a couple of people say it is honest… makes me worry what I said! Yes we had to install a hot water tank as we moved from a combi boiler. And we installed a buffer tank that is there to help reduce cycling and provide some heat for defrost cycles. We also changed some (not all) radiators to slightly bigger or double panel where we had single etc. In the future we plan to install solar PV when we do some work to our roof (that is quite old) Hope that is a helpful response Tom
Great video by the way. We are seriously looking into air source heat pump. What size is your heat pump sorry I may have missed that part?? I’m assuming I would need around 9kW for my 4 bed Semi.
Probably didn’t mention it in this video but have in others. We have a 5 kW Arotherm Plus. 9 kW probably sounds about right, although 5 does the job in our 3 bed Victorian terrace. Heat Geek has a fantastic rule of thumb video on a house type and m2 basis - ruclips.net/video/-VJQLcU_YjU/видео.html&feature=share&si=EMSIkaIECMiOmarE6JChQQ But none of that should be relied on, a heat loss assessment by a competent installer will make sure you get the right system. A heat pump is a great step to reduce emissions drastically and looks like will be a way to reduce costs as well! Would be great to hear your story when you go down that route. Tom
@@symosys Hi Paul, we have a small area of wet UFH but 90% of our home is radiators. We have the Unistor 150 litre tank from Vaillant - www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/the-unistor-hot-water-cylinders-for-heat-pumps-21888.html Are you got a system or looking at one? Tom
My experience with solar is that unless you have a large array it doesn't produce enough in the winter when your heating loads are high. I'm putting in an additional 13kwp on top of my 3.5 kwp system together with a 35kwh battery. I expect I will still need to buy electricity for about 90 days a year and that's with heating by gas.
Fair enough, although I am not sure the aim is to not buy electricity…? Solar PV helps subsidise electricity use and with current rates makes powering a home (with or without including a heat pump / EV) quite cheap. And should we be trying to get enough solar generation in the winter? Is that needed? The joy of being connected to the grid is that we could get energy from a diverse set of sources when the sun isn’t shining, and yes, when it is, local solar is fantastic at reducing costs. My argument would be to supplement bills with a solar array, that contributes to running a heat pump in spring and autumn, supports majority of hot water in the summer, and helps where it can in the winter. But by no means reliant on the solar in the winter… Tom
Hi Tom, Thanks for the video. Really informative. We are currently looking into getting a ASHP. We have a 5.2khw PV system and a 5.2kw battery. Our installers EON estimate a generation of around 4,800kwh, of which around 2,150 will be self-utilised currently and the remainder sold back to the grid. We have gas purely for heating and hot water using around 12,800kwh last year and are in a Victorian terrace too so will likely have a similar electricity usage from the heat pump to yourself. Do you have an estimate daily kWh usage on the heat pump during the spring/summer days? We are trying to estimate what our self-consumption will be if we invested in a heat pump. Will also have the cost saving of being able to remove the gas meter and save £104 on standing charge so it seems to be a great low carbon investment and also potentially a half decent financial investment too. Even if we utilised 1000kwh extra rather than exporting from the PV system then it’ll likely be worth investing in, especially with the 5k grant at the minute. Thanks
Hi Martin, great to hear about your system. I do have an estimate of kWh of the heat pump at spring / summer. In march it was about 15-20 kWh per day, April around 10-12 kWh per day (but really depends on how much hot water we need, and how cool the outside was), over the summer, no heating, and just hot water. We are 2 in our house, so probably use less hot water than many households, but heat pump demand could be as low as 1-2 kWh per day. I think you are spot on with the increased self consumption. Almost all generation over winter months will be used by the heat pump, and then programming hot water generation for a midday peak would mean you could use even more direct generation in the summer. In the 'shoulder months' March, April, October, November, where there is some sunlight, and some heating, you will see some increased benefit of the PV. I haven't modelled it in detail at our house, but will one day! Our house has a south east facing roof, which would actually work quite nicely with a heat pump as the heat pump might work harder to get the house warm in the morning, utilising max generation, and then could tick along for the afternoon when we generate less.... we'll see. One day! Thanks for messaging, sounds like you could have a great system soon!
Hi setdetnet, I guess this week is a good time to answer that question. Down to -5/6°C where I live, heating to 19° internally using the heat pump. The heat pump will be running nearly 24/7 except for when it does frost cycle, probably a few times an hour. It is supposed to run for most of the time as that means it is operating most efficiently. Hope this answers your question?
Hello. So you paid £5k+ for installation, not to mention thousands in RHI money, only so you could pay £21/month extra. How is this not a complete disaster?
Hi Nhohnhoj67 - I was actually part of a fully funded pilot scheme, which was very fortunate for me. (The RHI scheme ended this scheme. That would have reimbursed almost the full cost of a heat pump for those on it) I guess ‘complete disaster’ is relative. If we have understood that without drastic reduction in emissions in the short term, there will be global disaster with millions of lives at risk in the medium term. £21/month for us then is a price worth paying if we can help do our bit to reduce emissions. I had worked out that emissions linked to heat were a large proportion of what I was responsible for so thrilled to be able to reduce them by at least 67% by moving to a heat pump. Hope that adds up?! Tom
Depends on the perception of cost. Is it cost to yourself or ongoing cost to society with continual reliance on fossil fuel. However this is difficult regardless of values. Anything green seems to be more expensive, until this is addressed there will be no tipping point to reduce carbon. Heat pumps are one solution, I think they will only ever be niche unless the costs tumble massively. More likely hydrogen in the existing infrastructure will be mass adopted. Personally I think if you can afford it and you are carbon conscious, this video is clearly a success against against Tom’s goals.
Sorry to hear that Richard. We have Maintenance with our installer so not had to speak much to vaillant. All seems to be running ok for the 1st 14 months!
@Tom Bray Hello Tom. Does your cylinder have an immersion heater? If yes, is it used for pasteurizing, heat exchanger defrosting, and/or augmenting the heat pump? If yes to any of the above, how have you accounted for this cost? Thanks. John.
Hi John - yes it has an immersion, that I don’t think is used in a normal week, ie the heat pump does most / all of the work. Although If the immersion was being used it is also measured through the heat and electricity meters installed in the system so it is included in my calculations. Generating hot water is much lower efficiency than the heat pump providing heat to the radiators. Which pulls the overall efficiency down a bit. Hope all that helps / makes sense?! Tom
I'm researching airesource instead of oil fired heating so your post is interesting and I wonder how costs compare for oil. Heating oil is very expensive at the moment. I agree that moving to low carbon is a necessity
Hi Simon, thanks for the message, what are your latest costs for heating oil? If you can convert them to p per kWh then you could compare with electricity. If we assumed oil boiler was 90% efficient and a heat pump was 300% efficient, if electricity was less than 3.3x more expensive it would be cheaper to run a heat pump than oil. And it is very likely to reduce emissions!
Hey Tom, great video! Your old boiler wouldn't run at 94% effciency especially that model. The reality in the heating industry is us gas engineers chuck in the A rated gas boilers and cheer claiming happy days it's A rated! But they are rarely setup properly from day one meaning they don't run at their maximum efffciency. We call them condensing boilers but they rarely actually condense because they're setup onto heating systems incorrectly and when they don't condense you might as well be running a C rated boiler. Encouraging to hear it hasn't cost you much more to run your system, will be intrigued to see how you get on once you have panels fitted.
You’re spot on Nathan. I was probably assuming high so that gas fans wouldn’t call me out for understating gas efficiency. It probably means we have used more heat in the last 12 months. Which is one of the reasons why we were more comfortable with a heat pump. We did have quite low flow temps on our old gas boiler as I got the condensing issue back then. On cost, I reckon from new price guarantee today, our heat pump will break even with a gas boiler. And if I can get efficiency a bit higher, we’ll be saving …. Not enough to payback the cost of a heat pump installation but definitely meaningful! Tried to outline that here ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Thanks for commenting!
So true I fit 100’s of boilers and the amount of customers who crank the temperature on the boiler up to max or ‘e’ when I go back is unreal. I set the return temp for maximum condensing and they mess it up. No explanation helps most of them.
Our house is only 20 years old, but not well insulated . Our radiators us 10mm micro pipe, and are probably too small for use with a heat pump. All in all, I doubt if a heat pump would ever be on the cards - even if we could afford it on a pension , which we definitely can't! Disappointing.... PS Most of the air leaks would have been trivial jobs at the time of building - but very hard and expensive to sort out after the fact. I suspect many others are in the same position.
It is frustrating that building regs allowed for poor insulation in the 21st century. And a shame that your heating system has 10mm pipes, I know Heat Geek has done some videos on microbore that are probably targetted at installers but you may find them interesting - ruclips.net/video/dEDitJnRgz4/видео.html I hope there will be better funding to help with the transition in the future!
Hi Mikeorjoe - no these costs are just comparing operating costs and not installation costs for a new gas boiler or new heat pump. Ie how many kWh of gas or electricity would we use to stay warm each year and what cost would that have… Hope that makes sense? Tom
I don't heat my house June thru' Sept so SCOPs are misleading IMHO. What are the COPs for Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb when the temps sometimes get down to -3C? Close to 2 I'd have thought, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Hi David, fair point but the adverse is actually true. Over the summer months the heat pump is only doing hot water with a weekly pasteurising cycle of 60+ °C, so our COPs over the summer were around 2.5, whereas mid season, where we were heating but the external temperature was higher (February to May) average was 3.15, the coldest months, full heating, cold outside (Dec - Jan) the COP averaged 2.86. I actually did a video about winter performance - ruclips.net/video/FYVc-7HLb88/видео.html. My worst weekly COP over the last year was in July at 2.32, the lowest weekly COP during winter was 2.72. You are right that temperatures can go very low, and a heat pump efficiency may not be as good at that level but it is rare that temperature stays at -3 all day. And one point on SCOPs - a quoted SCOP on a manufacturer's data sheet is based on a standard methodology and will perform differently in different locations. What I have shared is an average COP based on the electricity I have used and the heat produced. The COP I have seen is much lower than the SCOP on the Vaillant data sheet!
Hi Marius - which part wasn’t great? We’ve been really pleased with how it has kept us comfortable all winter over the last 12 months. I did a couple of shorts of heat pump working at negative temperatures. ruclips.net/user/shortspiw9FdHswjY?feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ ruclips.net/user/shortsrF5-LfZMcB0?feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ Heat pumps are able to provide heat down to -20 as long as refrigerant inside the unit still can evaporate (propane down to -20 on our heat pump) then they can extract heat from the air and move it inside… doesn’t get THAT cold in County Durham Tom
HI Nick, fair point, I am an engineer rather than an accountant! We were part of a research project so the installation was fully funded, but would have cost a total of £11k if we were paying out right. Minus the £5000 grant that would be part of boiler upgrade scheme this would be a £6,000 investment. You may have to give me a lesson on Amortisation, but if we paid off a £6000 investment over 10 years, at an interest rate of 3.5%, this would add about £1100 in interest payments over the 10 year period, or an additional £9.20 per month. Does that stack up to you?
Greetings Tom, Thank you for your response to my post. We've had a solar array and battery for just over three years. We've only had a few bills since then. We thought that a heat pump would be a good next step. When the sun reappears the pump may prove to be worthwhile. I remain to be convinced. Yes today has been better on consumption because it's been around 11c. Perhaps heat pumps like warmer weather? We are having to readjust to a new way of thinking. For more than thirty years we have been able to crank up our oil boiler and be adequately warm in very short order. Perhaps we will adjust. Time will tell. I note that you have an electric car. I cannot justify the expense of an electric car for the few miles driven today. My ageing ICE car will have to last a while longer. Regards, Peter.
Hi Peter, thanks for coming back to me, I would say solar PV powering a battery and a heat pump will mean very low villa in spring, summer and winter. And mitigate the highest costs in winter. Heat pumps definitely prefer warm weather, and if set up with weather compensation will be more efficient and cheaper every degree higher, but they can perform down to -20°C. Yes it is a different way of thinking to an oil boiler but much more efficient, and I suspect much cheaper, especially with your PV. I don’t have an EV yet, for similar reasons to you. But I do much of my travel locally on my bike. I have done a couple of videos about hiring or borrowing EVs though, I think they are fantastic..! Much better performance than fossil cars and a full ‘tank’ / battery each morning when you wake up! Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Morning Tom, pump working quite hard today! Not sure what you mean by "villa in spring" predictive text typo? When our fitters can sort acceptable temperatures in all rooms I may be a little happier. The system is working but not what we expected. I'll update in due course. Regards, Peter.
Really really well done theres still gonna be 8 million tonnes of coal burnt every year im currently just sat infront of my free wood fed log burner there is no way i will be fitting a heat pump but again well done ......
Hi David Foster, thanks for engaging with the video. We burn much less coal in the UK than we used to. Our electricity comes from a range of sources, almost a quarter from wind power - www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-12-months/. So, with the efficiency of a heat pump, it becomes very low emissions. Well done for finding free wood, does that heat your whole house? Does it give you hot water too? Log burners are great and make a really cosy room, but they do risk contributing to poor air quality nearby. Why wouldn't you want to install a heat pump? Thanks Tom
Whatever we do it is totally irrelevant if this so called global warming is true which it definitely isnt! I have a gas boiler which heats my water perfectly fine Why would i change a heating system that is perfectly fine if everything goes electric we are goin to have tripple the amount of pilons update all the cables in the ground and above the ground and dread to think how much more gas we are goin to need to power the power stations when theres no wind or sunlight its just pathetic!
Best pumps aren’t very efficient when temp below 40dagress. Used as supplemental heat or again to use above 40. Solar is best option as an addition like u said.
Hi Robert, Do you mean degrees Fahrenheit? Although air source heat pumps are less efficient at colder external temperatures they are still above 250% efficient. My data says over the last year they are about 315%. Solar PV would supplement a heat pump by providing some of the power to the unit, rather than a separate source of heat. Thanks Tom
if you have this magically insulated home that keeps heat doesn't this also mean the house will stay heated with gas. I dunno this video just tells more more then better way to go is a insulated home with gas heating and solar panels for electric and sell excess to the grid to then pay for the gas
Hi review assistant - not 100% sure what you mean? We live in a Victorian terrace. That isn’t that well insulated… and are living very well with a heat pump Since I recorded this video energy prices have changed. At the latest rates we would now break even with a heat pump vs a gas boiler. Adding solar panels would help pay for heat pump demand, exporting energy to the grid tends to be much less valuable than using it locally so I am not your plan stacks up. You can’t generate your own gas, so you’ll be reliant on fossil fuel companies, or people like Putin. When we electrify everything we start to be able to be self reliant. Hope that makes sense Tom
Hi Darrell - good question. If you needed as much heat as me then you are likely to use 4000kWh of electricity each year with a heat pump. If you paid £6k for solar panels you might get a system of around 3.5 kW, which would generated around 3000 kWh of electricity each year. Let’s assume you use half of that at home, and your tariff is 34p per kWh, that would save you £510 per year. You could then sell the rest for at least 5p per kWh which would give you another £75. A heat pump will likely save you money if you are on the price guarantee tariff from 1st October. How much depends on efficiency. Let’s assume it doesn’t save much but just breaks even. £15k + £6k = £21k / £585 per year = 35 years. So… a long time. You would get £5k off through the boiler upgrade scheme, so more like £16k, so 27 years… and if commissioned well, the heat pump would help save too… let’s say £200 a year, £785 in total, or just over 20 years payback … starting to get there But would likely reduce your house’s emissions by 75% + What is that worth?
Hi neuroniuans - it’s an interesting question, we are calling for heat for most of the day, and actually a heat pump running at a low output for long periods of time is the most efficient way to run it. So short answer, in winter, probably 12+ hours…?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thank you for getting back to me 😊 I'm considering a rental that heas an air pump as a heating source and just wondering what could be the costs approximately. So I'm guessing yur calculations are based on 12+ hours use on low output for the entire few bedrooms property.
@@neuroniuans heya - yes it runs most of the day because of weather compensation means it is just working hard enough and no more. In terms of costs etc… I live in a 3 bed house in north east England, I did use about 12000 kWh of gas to heat the house each year. Now use around 4000 kWh electricity to provide the same heat. You could do a simple calculation based on those figures and your gas and electricity rates and it might give you an idea of costs … Hope that’s helpful
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Yes, that's very helpful, thank you. Based on your calculations I'm not very worried as it's just a small flat, so hoping the cost is gonna be lower. I'm after rather more southern part and probably a bit warmer that where you are.
I'm surprised that your monthly bills are still higher compared with gas. I currently pay about 10p/kwh for gas and just over 30p/kwh for electric. I would have thought that the much quoted 300% efficiency would at least have balanced this cost out (even if that still left you paying the large initial install costs for the heat pump and upgraded rads etc). Quite disappointing but thanks for sharing your results.
Hi Tyrone, you are spot on. The costs I was using were for the previous 12 months (july 21 - july 22), as such the rates were 29.12p per kWh for electricity and 7.22p per kWh for gas. The new price guarantee rates are 10p gas and 34p electricity, which means I now think my system will break even, if not give savings over the next 12 months. My efficiency since july 22 to today has been 330% which would give a considerable saving vs a 90% efficient gas boiler. I think around 7%, which would be about £90-£100 saving over the year. Not paying for the capital cost outlay but better than a kick in the teeth! I did an update video here with new costs - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html Hope that makes sense
As some have suggested why not a Battery staorage solution and Octopus Go tariff. You appear to have an EV which makes you elegable for the "Go" tariff. Charge the EV and the battery pack in the 4 hour overnight rate i.e. 7.5p/kW. Run you ASHP on the "pack" during the day. This is what I have done. PV is a good addition but not so usefull when you need heat more during the winter. The battery pack does, obviously, not rely on the condition of your roof.
Hi pepermint! I don’t actually have an EV yet, I have a bike! And an increasingly old petrol car that will be replaced one day. I’ve borrowed and hired EVs in the past though. We’re not on octopus go, but maybe there is a case for a battery investment if we were. I’d be concerned about a big battery outlay based on day / night tariffs staying so generous but I need to have a think in more detail! I’m not 100% convinced in the low carbon credentials of a battery on its own. Yes helping reducing day time peaks is good, but conscious of materials and energy gone into battery manufacture. I should look into this one day!
Hi Paul - you’ll have to talk me through that one. Emissions linked to heat are nearly 50% of total emissions in my county, reducing these by 65-70% today and progressively more in the long term is a huge benefit. What’s the other plan for reducing heating emissions? Yes individual actions have small impacts but if millions of gas boilers were removed by individuals, 1 by 1, we’d have a massive impact. What other choice do we have?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle basically uk achieves its low co2 via off loading it elsewhere. It’s a farce heat pumps are efficient yet gas powered power stations are as bad as 50% efficient same gos for electric cars low co2 yet the actual co2 they cost is not great. We’ve got 50 od years of gas and oil minimum left hopefully by then real green power technology such as hydrogen will be worth while. ( we should of built more nuclear plants in the meantime) controversial! I fit gas boilers for a living and some air source heat pumps. I’m not convinced they are the long term solution. The uk whole energy is a joke, multiple energy suppliers supplying same product. Watch skill builders channel he’s far more clued up and explains it well Also heat geek has opposite options mostly but highly knowledgeable. Most people want cheaper energy prices before going green, going green needs to be tackled at the source of the energy not necessarily individual homes. Bit of a waffle and probably not making much sense I’ve not had much sleep.
Hi Paul - not sure what you’ve said is 100% accurate. Uk drop in emissions has come from a range of factors. Yes we have less manufacturing in the UK than the 70s/80s which means emissions are lower. But also we have moved away from coal power in a big way and adopted wind and gas power stations, this has reduced emissions of electricity by ~60% since 2008. Modern combined cycle gas turbines are likely to be more efficient that 50% but we do need to move away from gas as a fuel. Not sure what you mean by EVs costing a lot of CO2. It definitely uses a lot of energy to manufacture any new car, but per mile an EV will be 70% lower emissions than an equivalent fossil vehicles. We may have 50 years of fossil reserves but we don’t have that much budget in CO2 emissions. We need to halve by 2030 and be net zero well before 2050. If we keep digging up oil, coal and gas we will have big problems. Hydrogen will have a big role to play in a low carbon economy but won’t be the solution for a lot of our emissions (heat and transport for example). It will be too expensive and too valuable. Why do you think heat pumps are not a long term solution? They use about a third of the energy of a gas boiler, and can use low cost renewable energy to power them. I think they are a great solution to decarbonise heat. There are a lot of issues with the Uk energy market. I agree. Skill builder is a great channel to help with DIY, I think Roger Bisby is a bit misled when it comes to his views on heat pumps. He doesn’t seem to understand the tech or reasons behind using them. I think the guys behind Heat Geek are really on the ball. A heat pump, when commissioned well can really reduce costs, and as we reduce the amount of natural gas in our electricity system, costs for power could be very low, and therefore heat pumps would be very cheap to run. If we started to count the true cost of gas ie to include impact of emissions, decommissioning costs, etc. We would have something better to compare against. Hope you’re able to get some more sleep soon mate. I’ve had times when my brain is working overdrive at night, it’s not fun
Hi Shawn - yep! Over that 12 month period in our house i worked out it cost us more than a year with a gas boiler. The way gas and electricity rates have changed means now we would break even - I’ve done an update video here ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ So far this year the efficiency of the unit is higher than last year so it is likely it would be cheaper to run Context is we are in a Victorian terrace, many newer homes will be much cheaper to run with a heat pump. Hope all that makes sense?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle yes it does, thanks. So I can save the planet but cripple the savings. Not for me then. Perhaps powered from solar this could be financially viable, but then I’m looking at many 1000s to get going. We’re in a 30s single brick house
That’s fair enough - there needs to be more support for homes to reduce emissions, or make it more financially attractive to move away from gas. Our system is now saving compared to gas but it’s not lucrative. I would question the logic (in your words) of putting savings before ‘saving the planet’ - where are we going to spend money if we risk climate breakdown? Hopefully in the next few years if your boiler needs replacing you might be ready to go heat pump? Tom
Gas at that rate is 3 times what we’re used to! Yes installation costs need considering, I’ve talked about that in previous videos. Cost of our system was £11k, so minus the £5k grant would have been £6k. Since this video I did an update on latest costs, and with efficiency improving on last year I reckon we’re saving quite a bit. ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
If you have solar panels and battery storage then the cheapest way must be ceramic storage heaters. Installation for cheaper then heat pumps and no moving parts. That would be the way I would go.
Hi Dave, that's a helpful point, although storage heaters would use 3x the energy as a heat pump (at least), the heat pump efficiency helps keep running costs down. But you are right, solar coupled with an electric system has the potential to provide very low cost heating Thanks Tom
Hi Christopher, thanks for the comment, I have done a bunch of videos about our heat pump in this playlist - ruclips.net/p/PLlIKCaEd5CsTRbddqHYMPZokka2O0Dyqc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE Don’t want to repeat stuff in every video! But we have been pretty happy with the comfort our heat pump gives. A nice consistent heat, rather than peaks and troughs that our old boiler used to have. And it’s able to heat to a comfortable temperature even this winter where it has often been below 0. We have cooler spaces in the house (it’s a Victorian terrace, there are some bits that could be improved further!) but the spaces we spend most time in are nice and warm. Hope that’s helpful Thanks Tom
@Tom Bray thankyou, very. We have an old 1920s style house so you're very similar to us. I also saw some recent and significant price drops might be on the horizon so I am quite tempted. Solar panels seem a big plus as well so I'd be tempted to do both if I can get the money together
Hi Christopher, definitely something to look into in my detail. There is a nice synergy between a heat pump and solar panels, particularly during spring and autumn when we still generate some electricity and still need some heat. All the best with your project!
Design temp was 45 degrees at -2. Some of our radiators were upgraded and 2 added but not all upgraded. I think the house needs a bit more than that so did run at a slightly higher heat curve. In hindsight, a couple of rooms I might have asked for slightly bigger rads and in reality, bigger the better for efficiency.
Hi Gary, the heat pump works by evaporating a fluid (in my case Propane) using heat in the air by the heat pump. Propane 'boils' at -42, so technically our heat pump could work down to -42°C. The manufacturer's data sheet suggests it can work to -20°C. At that temperature it can still provide heat, it just gets less efficient as uses more electricity to add heat. Fortunately it has never been -22°C where I live, I realise there are parts of the UK that have got that low at times, and this may have an adverse effect on a heat pump (it would on a gas boiler too) and fortunately doesn't stay that cold the whole time. Hope that answers your question!
Very interesting thank you for sharing your experience. Are you using weather compensation on your heat pump? if not optimising that might improve your COP. My son has an HP and made significant gains from that Getting a solar PV and a battery sounds like great idea, we have both but no HP yet. Solar also gives you a measure of independence from power companies. We have bought into Ripple too and are looking forward to that starting
Hi terry - thanks for commenting, yes using weather compensation. Although I tinkered with it a lot last year trying to get the best out of it. Will keep the WC curve as low as possible this year! Yes solar will really help keep costs down, I love the simplicity of it all when we generate on a roof, use that energy to power a home including heating and hot water, and even power transport… makes sense! Looking forward to seeing our neighbours installation who are getting all 3 very soon!
Hi tom. Great video. We just had a vaillant ashp installed. How did you read your COP? The menu has yield but not sure if this includes the input electricity or just the free bit from the air? And there is also the ' working figure' which Is a number a bit like COP but finding a definitive answer is difficult. I appreciate if you can shed light that would be great. Thanks
We’ve actually got a heat meter and electricity meter connected to the system that measures what it produces and what it consumes. We were part of a research project so was installed day 1. I don’t really trust the figures within the controller / i haven’t looked into it in detail. I think you’re right the environmental yield must be the ‘free’ heat from ambient air, and added to the power consumption figures and that is within 10% of what our heat meter has measured. The power consumption is a bit low as I suspect the pump energy isn’t counted. But could probably give a good estimate of how the system is performing. I’ve seen some discussion about the manufacture’s own energy measurements and not matching to measured energy via meters etc but it will be more or less there… Sorry I can’t give an accurate answer!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle thanks that is really helpful. We don't have heat meter so it will be a bit of a guess for us. The manual is very unclear on how the figures are generated or what they really measure. I will probably have a guess in a years time as I know what our gas usage was and can infer our heat input.
@@joewentworth7856 That makes sense, the data is helpful, if only to try and improve each year. I wonder if heat and dedicated electricity meters should be standard on installations (they were for RHI grants) or to check a system is performing as planned. But comparing to previous years, pre-heat pump, could give a good estimate
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle have you compared the 'working figure' that the vaillant control panel gives out compares to the cop you get from your independant meters? It would be great for those without better Metering to know if the vaillant figures are meaningful. Great chanel enjoying the content. Thanks
I recommend getting a battery with your solar power. You won't be using your heat pump much in the summer, and a battery can greatly reduce your energy demands for a large portion of the year when it's warm. I'm also on Ripple, it seems like a great idea.
Hi Rhys, I am going to do a video about batteries as I am not sure it is as simple as that. I'll try to go into the detail of time of use tariff, solar pv summer charging etc... it may be a good option but I wonder whether the bigger battery sat on your drive in the future could be all the storage we need...?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle I fully agree that the EV-Grid future is to come, and it would seem a waste to double up. If I've got my facts right, you can get a pv+battery VAT free, but you can't get a VAT free battery upgrade. So if you're thinking of a house battery, try to get it at the same time as the PV system.
I think the idea of putting less carbon in the atmosphere is a great mindset to have. Surely it should be cheaper to run as that is how we gauge our lives in the current system. It's great being all low carbon but if I'm out of pocket especially with this ever increasing energy and cost of living crisis I have to choose the most affordable option. I just had a heatpump system installed, replacing older storage heaters and an immersion , I've found that my bills are pretty much the same were before, well, I say the same on top of the price hike they are completely financially unsustainable. The only real plus, is my flat is a lot warmer.
Hi Nick, ultimately heat pumps should be cheaper to run as the more renewables are deployed and we can move away from a volatile gas prices for heat and for electricity generation. I would be suprised if your bills were the same as a heat pump will be much more efficient than storage heaters, unless you were on a time of use tariff that meant you could charge at a cheaper rate. Pleased your are warmer! And emissions will be around 2/3rds lower than what they were Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle But don’t forget you have to recoup all the costs of the installation before you can claim any price parity or saving for that matter. In all these videos, that seems to be ignored.
It would seem that the main point of your video is the reduction in CO2. Shame your saving is offset by my increase as I got rid of my heat pump and put a gas boiler back in.
Hi Thales of Miletus - absolutely the main point! My channel is called low carbon lifestyle, my jobs is about reducing emissions and my passion is trying to help others respond to the climate emergency! How come you removed a heat pump? That’s a real shame and will lock in your emissions for the life of the boiler. Tom
@@supersurfer1 Hi Fair Human - no I don't believe everything on the 'telly'. Since the industrial revolution we have increased the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere by over 50%. This has led to average temperatures around the world rising by more than 1°C. This has led to weather patterns changing and an increased frequency of extreme weather events. All this is recorded evidence. Not someone on TV making something up. The future looks like we are going to end up with warming of over 2°C. This would mean a planet completed different to today. With risk of crop failure, drought, extreme weather etc leading to mass displacement of vulnerable people from their homes, extinction of many different species and shortage of food for all of us. This is pretty much locked in within my lifetime (hoping to get to my 80s) if we don't do something about it now. I am spending my time working to reduce emissions as quickly as possible. Because I think your safety, my safety and the rest of the planet's, is worthwhile. Thanks for asking!
It’s a good point. It would be interesting to plot the nighttime temperature difference and work out corresponding COP to see whether night hot water generation is actually more expensive…. You’re right though. Cooler External ambient = lower COP. So may be worth looking at!
Hi Tom, just found you this evening. Great video and very informative. We have moved into a brand new build in May which is fitted with a heat pump and under floor heating, A rated etc... My question for you is on the thermostat settings. I have heard many different opinions, set at 20 and leave it alone or set for higher at different times of the day. What do you do? I know we have differently insulated houses, but what do you think is best? Thank you.
Hi Mark thanks for commenting and the question. I think the key is the drop on your ‘set back’ temperature. Ie what temperature do you leave heating on overnight? If this is too low the system will be working hard to raise temperature in the mornings. Last winter I think we settled on 19/19.5 during the day and 17 overnight. But I guess that’s all down to preference on comfort levels etc. But keeping the set back within 2-3 degrees of the day time temperature is key. I imagine your system will be quite efficient and cheap to run in a well insulated new property.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle thanks a mil Tom, this is what I have been thinking of doing. I just can't see heating 7 inches of concrete every morning up from too low a temperature would be efficient.
@@markmurphy7301 How come you would be heating 7 inches of concrete - do you have underfloor heating below concrete? Surely the heat would go to the space rather than into concrete? And then concrete would hold heat so wouldn't need heating up?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle yep, underfloor heating. I'm very new to the technology but remember the engineer telling me to not let the setback temp get too low as the system will work hard heating the slab before I get heat gains inside the house. I keep hearing different people saying different things. A long winter of experiments I think.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle typical underfloor heating design has 100-250mm of insulation underneath the concrete slab containing the underfloor heating pipework. We are in the process of digging out all out Victorian era floors to install 250mm of pumped insulation, underfloor heating pipework and then 100mm of concrete on top. That's the make up for a polished concrete floor, if you are just screening the floor and plan to have tiles or another UFH suitable floor covering then that screed can be around 50mm. So it is unlikely that you would be hearing 7 inches of concrete but if you were then I doubt it would be good to have a set back of more than a degree. If you have solar I'd have a set back so that the sun can bring you back up to temp in the morning but if you are just on the grid with a thermal mass that size I would set to one temperature and just let it keep that topped up with a lower flow temperature, that would give you the highest COP.
Hi, your heating system is not fossil free until you can guarantee the electricity your using to power your heat pump is fully renewable or until your generating it yourself from a solar PV system.
Hi Thomas, you are right, I definitely don’t claim that our heat pump is zero emissions but a few points to make in reply. We don’t burn anything locally but use power from our electricity supply that comes from a number of sources. If we assume average emissions for 21/22 as reported by BEIS then our emissions were about 65% lower than our old gas boiler. But, we could assume our electricity supply was zero emissions as comes from a company that sells 100% renewable electricity. I don’t assume that as I know our grid in the UK is a mix. I could assume that our electricity comes directly from the generators around where I live (this would be the reality of the physics of electricity system). Locally, our electricity grid is mainly powered from the Hartlepool electricity grid, offshore wind and solar generators. The emissions of electricity in the north east tends to be very low. Finally we could assume that adding a demand to the electricity grid which increases the marginal generator demand, which tends to be coal or gas, so emissions could be based on power from gas power stations. As long as the emissions from the marginal generator are less than 600g CO2 per kWh (which is likely for gas power stations) then our heat pump will be lower emissions than our old gas boiler. The more low carbon generators on the grid and eventually when we get solar PV, the heat pump would be even lower emissions So ultimately, I agree with you! Thanks for commenting.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Good reply. You will really be heading towards fossil free when you install your Solar PV system. I agree with you though that electricity is only getting cleaner whilst fossil (oil/gas) never will. I enjoy your channel 👍🏼
Good honest video. Applaud for your efforts and honesty and contribution to CO2 reduction. However.... many UK houses (especially single walled) are not naturally suitable for this approach without major additional expense such as external wall /floor insulation and some refit internally to make that difference. Do investigate an "In roof" solar system that just replaces your roof tiles completely. It's cheaper than re-tiling because 0 VAT and use very few concrete/ clay tiles which use up a lot of energy in their production. As an engineering consultant working in the middle east petrochemical industry, if you saw the huge investments that are now building new mega facilities to extract more hydrocarbons than ever before in the past, you would sadly realise apart for your own conscience and additional personal financial cost this whole push to reduce CO2 footprint on a personal level raises many questions but I respect your efforts on a personal basis and your passion towards it. If, in the UK we all just properly insulated under our floors, walls, windows and installed high efficiency H2 ready gas boilers the progressive effect would be HUGE and not so expensive to the individual either and further CO2 reductions when 20% H2 is added to the existing gas network. I did all this years ago and Jan/Feb 2022 was very cold in Yorkshire requiring all day heating. Our gas usage was 1800/ 2000kWh for heating / cooking/ 4 persons showering for those two coldest months equating to 70/ 80 pounds/month for those cold months and down to 400kWhr by May 2022. Not bad for a 3 bed 1965 brick house.. The end solution in another 50yrs+ will be to knock down old houses and rebuild them to new standards where technology and modular building materials will ensure a greater efficiency as todays younger generation won't even go near an old building.
Thanks so much for commenting, lots in there, i'll try to respond to each point! I wonder how many homes in the UK are single walled? There are a majority of homes in the UK that would be suitable for a heat pump, they just need sizing correctly with the correct emitters - this is a good study that makes that point - es.catapult.org.uk/case-study/electrification-of-heat-case-studies-on-heat-pump-experiences/ I definitely will be looking at integrated solar panels - I think they look very cool as well as offering some saving on tiling. When we look at the global scale, it is heartbreaking to see what we are doing, I do think though that as part of a globalised market individual decisions that can influence community decisions, regional processes and ultimately national and international markets are an essential step to a low carbon economy. If I use less gas or less oil, then the market for investing in more oil and gas reduces ever so slightly, if you do too, then even better! But I definitely understand we cannot do it as individuals, I work full time trying to decarbonise my county, and though these youtube videos try to provoke thought in the youtube community about what steps they could take. I am trying to multiply my impact through documenting my journey. Hydrogen - I am actually working on a video about hydrogen at the moment. I disagree with your conclusion for a number of reasons! I think you mentioned you are an engineer, I am too, a chartered engineer with the imeche - so let's get into the engineering of hydrogen. 1st of all a 20% blend - due to the calorific value of hydrogen compared to natural gas, a 20% blend of hydrogen will increase costs by 14% i.e. you will need to burn 14% more volume to get the same heat out. If the H2 is zero carbon, then that would reduce emissions linked to your heating by 7%... is that worthwhile? Then with a hydrogen ready boiler you would be waiting for a 100% supply of hydrogen from the gas mains, we have to ask where the hydrogen comes from. Currently the majority of the hydrogen we use in the UK (and we use a lot already) is derived from processing natural gas, this releases CO2 in the process. There are plans to capture the CO2, but, as you will know, in the petrochemical industry, there are occasionally leaks, so leaks of the natural gas used as the source of hydrogen, leaks of the captured CO2 and leaks of the hydrogen itself will all contribute to emissions. We could make hydrogen through electrolysis, using low carbon electricity - great, well to replace the demand of the natural gas we use today with hydrogen that we might burn in a boiler we would need an electricity system multiple times the size of today, a huge amount of wind and solar, nuclear, hydro power, tidal power etc etc etc to generate enough hydrogen to meet the heat demand of all our homes (I will go into the detail in terms of TWh in my video to come!). There is a large inefficiency of using electricity to generate hydrogen in electrolysis, transport the hydrogen in the gas system to burn in a boiler. For every kWh of low carbon electricity we generate, we may get 0.5 kWh of heat. The alternative would be to use that energy to power heat pumps, which have an efficiency of 250-350%. If we assume the lower end, 250%, every kWh of electricity we use in a heat pump would output 2.5 kWh of heat, 5x more efficient that green hydrogen from electrolysis burnt in a H2 boiler. If we need to move to a low carbon economy with low carbon heating systems as soon as possible, I agree, we need to insulate 20million homes in the UK (this may be disruptive, but so will climate chaos), and then for the remaining heat demand, we should meet that with heat pumps. If we are agreed that decarbonisation is our only option, and I suggest it is, then H2 boilers are an inefficient use of energy and a supply of clean hydrogen will come too late to have the impact we need. I need to record my video to add to the debate! We may knock down many of the homes we currently live in, but due to the value the housing market places on homes, I suspect many of us will not want to knock down and start again - property is our retirement, insurance, life savings etc etc. Knocking it down will be hard for many! Thanks again for commenting, I really appreciate people taking the time to engage so thoroughly. Tom
Good to see some information. I've invested in the Kirk Hill wind turbine (its about 20miles from my house also) and installed a PV+Battery 5kwp+10kwh but sadly in the end decided to fit a new viessmann boiler with weather compensation this week although Ive moved it to the garage with the idea that in 10years+ Id fit a heat pump+cylinder. While the extra £20~ a month isn't too much of a problem the outlay of £10K+ is the concern. My house needs insulation upgrades though that I hope to make to prepare it for a heat pump though and if nothing else save gas in the meantime. One add-on I might get in the short term is an air-to-air heat pump for our open plan kitchen to cool and heat as it can be installed in isolation of my main heating system.
Sounds like you are really on top of improving your house, and with the PV, when you are able to move to a heat pump, it would be cheaper to run than your boiler. I think an air to air heat pump can be a quick and cheaper way to low carbon heat, and if you can use it when the sun is shining, will cost very little to run. Good to hear the boiler is set up with weather compensation. How does the flow temperature vary with external temp? How low will the boiler run?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle not had the heating on yet to fully see it all working together. Nest should regulate this though. I can see for the hot water its been modulating upto 60% for showers.
Hi Dr Darren, I have actually done an update video since last year and now we have less energy, less cost and much lower emissions... win win win...! ruclips.net/video/94jy8aLqLms/видео.html
solar panels max them out and a decent expanable battery system something like pylontech batteries 5kw versions can be had in the uk for £1600 with a 10 year gurantee, check out midsomer wholesale for there products, with the solar fill your roof you will not regret doing it
Absolutely - when we have electrified heat (or a car) it makes so much sense to have as much PV as possible. Our neighbours are installing a heat pump soon, alongside 10 kW of solar panels, and (I think) a Tesla battery. I havent heard of Pylontech but I will have a look. Thanks for commenting!
The real answer here is never over complicate your heating and hot water systems. The overall costs will bite you when things start to go wrong and more likely become obsolete. Great for the first five years but downhill from then on !
Absolutely. That’s what I love about heat pumps. Really simple technology that reduces emissions overnight and can reduce costs in the long term. Gas boilers are obsolete in a climate emergency.
Thanks for the vid but there's a little too much technical info for the average person, which includes me. 90% of people do not know what a kilowatt hour is, let alone a kilowatt, or even a watt. Having said that, I'm in a similarly sized terraced house with loft insulation and an intact roof, but one which is in need of replacing due to age. My heat pump was installed in June and while it's barely needed to be on, from what I can see it's around a penny a minute to heat the house. It does take a good 20 minutes for all radiators to heat up and they don't bounce off the walls in the same way that a gas boiler provides heat, but they are warm to very warm. It is still early days but I'm not unhappy with it and I agree it's for the best to get us off our gas reliance and sooner rather than later.
Hi C Smith! Sorry, I am a mechanical engineer so talk of power and energy etc is part of my every day. A kilowatt is a unit of power, so a home will need a certain number of kilowatts on a cold day to make it warm, ours is just over 5 kW. kilowatt hours are the unit of energy, if you used 1 kW for 10 hours, that would be 10 kilowatt hours. We tend to meter our energy use in kWh, both gas and electricity. If I used 12000 kWh of natural gas in the year before we had a heat pump, I would use roughly 3x less energy to deliver the same heat with a heat pump because the efficiency is 3x greater. We had our heat pump installed about a year before you. Heat pumps, if working efficiently, will be a similar cost to run as a gas boiler. Electricity is much more expensive than gas so it can appear that bills might go up, but we use so much more natural gas with a gas boiler than we do electricity with a heat pump. I know what you mean about radiators not being as hot as previously, and the key is whether you feel comfortable, gas boilers tend to heat to very high temperatures and turn off regularly, heat pumps are more low and slow, the lower and slower they are tends means heat pumps would be more efficient, and costs lower. So as long as you are comfortable, and have enough heat in a space, turning down the 'flow' temperature of the heat pump will reduce costs. What kind of heat pump do you have? Well done for making the switch! You just reduced your heating emissions by 70%!
Thanks Tom. I wonder if the prices there have gone as crazy as the states? Heating oil prices have doubled over the last year or so. I'm installing a min split and we run off PV which charges out car too so we're really hedging inflation.
Hi mosfet500 - similar over here. Government have capped prices at 34p per kWh for electricity and 10p per kWh for gas. This is roughly 2x for electricity and 3x for gas compared to 12 months ago. People are really struggling PV definitely makes sense if you have electric heating and an EV!
Hi Jeff - thanks for the comment, you’re not the first to highlight that, I have gone into detail about that stuff in other videos and wasn’t planning on repeating for this video which was supposed to be an update on costs to run the thing after a year. Cost of installation was £11k, that included 2 years of maintenance so we haven’t had to pay that yet. CO2 costs of manufacture - this blog from 3-4 years ago helps outline the story… www.raponline.org/blog/why-i-replaced-my-new-gas-boiler-with-a-heat-pump/. Because emissions of the grid have improved since then the saving is even higher. So maybe less that a year to ‘payback emissions’. I haven’t compared with the carbon cost of manufacturing a gas boiler. Or in fact of digging up the gas in the first place. I’d be interested to know the long term impact of natural gas on our air quality, ecosystem and ultimately, climate…? Good job we don’t tend to question embodied emissions of fossil technology in the same way we do low carbon tech…! Tom
Hi Ian, good question. I haven’t analysed that exactly about whether there will be a cliff for efficiency at a certain temperature, there may be, I suspect it follows a trend down as temperature drops. So max efficiency of around 400% at 10-15 degrees to a minimum of around 250% at -5… it probably isn’t a straight line between those two points but it may be! Tom
Thanks so much for watching this video.
Just after I recorded it, the energy price cap changed, so I did a mini update video with the same figures at the new prices - have a look - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html
And if you want to hear about how we have improved efficiency since it was recorded - subscribe for a video coming soon!
I’m in a one bedroom social housing bungalow and registered disabled and suffer with COPD and my housing association had the air source installed and I absolutely HATE IT, it’s costing so much more than the modern night storage heaters. The bungalow is much colder than it was before and because this property is now deemed energy efficient which it most certainly isn’t and I have now LOST MY WARM HOME DISCOUNT and the COLD WEATHER PAYMENTS due to a piece of paper deeming it so,
So if anyone has the choice from their housing associations to have it installed please think very carefully before you take the plunge, if I could turn back the clock I would have declined as I had modern storage heaters which had a timer and fan on the bottom which cost so much less to run than this awful costly system. If anyone tries to tell you that it’s cheaper than storage heaters I can tell you from my experience it most certainly isn’t.
Hi Jonathan, sorry to hear about your experience but thanks for sharing it.
It doesn't sound like your system is set up correctly as there is no reason your house should be cold with a heat pump. It should also be cheaper to run than storage heaters. Everything is more expensive this year than previous years but the efficiency of a heat pump means you should be buying less electricity if set up correctly.
What is the manufacturer of the heat pump? I will try and help if I can give any tips
Thanks
Tom
A refreshingly honest cost analysis which backs up what I think that at current gas prices heat pumps are uneconomical.
Thanks thamesmud - although the situation has changed with the energy price cap changing in October. I did an update here -
ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html - at the efficiency we had last year this means we would break even with an old gas boiler.
I would say to add, our heat pump is heating a Victorian terrace with some fairly average improvements to insulation, and this year we are actually saving with the efficiency improvements we have had.
I would say heat pumps don’t have a ‘pay back’ but neither does a new kitchen or a new car or a new sofa… we often invest in order to change lifestyle.
And the reduction in emissions, for me, is worth the cost!
Tom
This video does not represent a valid comparison of the merits of installing a heat pump.
Some issues which were not referenced;
1/ Capital costs. The heat pump installation alone, sans solar panels, wind turbine shares etc., is likely to have cost at least £10k, net of the government subsidy.
2/ Space taken by the heat pump.
3/ Space taken by the buffer vessel.
4/ Noise from the heat pump.
5/ Installation of larger radiators (always needed unless over large radiators are already fitted, or the dwelling is very modern and extremely well insulated).
6/ How warm the house is compared to gas heating. The usual experience is that heat pumps cannot heat normal homes as well as before. This would explain (assuming similar climatic conditions) the lower heat consumption year on year following the heat pump installation.
7/ Disruption caused by the installation process.
8/ Reference to reducing running expenses by further expenditure in solar panels and wind turbine shares are a false equivalence. These same investments could be made, decreasing household electricity costs, without the presence of a heat pump.
9/ The only reason that the increased running costs of the heat pump were not far greater is the large increase in gas prices. Which is a deliberate government ploy to raise energy costs in order to herd people into “green” options.
In essence; installing a heat pump for the video presenter involved a great deal of expenditure and inconvenience, at the end of which he has a noisier heat pump noise), smaller (space taken by heat pump and buffer vessel), colder home which is more expensive to run than before.
Good luck with that.
Hi imprator- thanks for your comment. I’ll come back with a few points…
I have been into a lot of this in other videos, installation disruption, cost, changes to radiators, space taken up etc. I didn’t expect this video to be seen so much so didn’t feel I needed to give more context.
Quick answers - we were part of a research project so there was no cost to us to install. The cost of installation was just under £11k.
Heat pump doesn’t take up too much space outside.
Buffer and hot water tank take up a similar space to the old boiler but we have lost some storage space.
Noise - ruclips.net/video/ksrAZM-ldI8/видео.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE - it may get worse over time but we are happy so far.
Radiators - our radiators are not outrageous, seem suitable for each room, bigger radiators would mean higher efficiency and in hindsight I would have gone bigger.
Comfort - we are much more comfortable with a heat pump as you don’t have the steep changes in temperature as heating goes on and off. Our system can hit the desired temperature as required.
Disruption - our installation was in the summer so didn’t lose heating. Hot water tank with immersion heater was installed in a day. There were plumbers / electricians at our house for 3 days. It wasn’t that disruptive.
Electricity costs - without a heat pump a lot of local generation would be exported to the grid, which has less value. I don’t think it is a false equivalence, you can’t dig up your own natural gas but you can generate electricity locally to provide free heat / hot water (and free miles in an EV). Electrifying everything is one way to reduce costs.
Government ploy - your comment is suggesting that tax / subsidy has never been used to change public behaviour before? If we need to move away from gas and reduce emissions then bring on the government help for low carbon tech. Although I would point out that gas is still greatly subsidised compared to electricity.
I really disagree with your final summary, we have a cheaper bill for heating, we are more comfortable, and we have reduced emissions by ~70%. I have shared my experience clearly and honestly and it doesn’t chime with what you are saying.
Thanks for commenting but it is fairly frustrating to hear so much disinformation on a video when I have said the opposite things in other videos on this channel. I am not sure what makes people so upset about heat pumps, they are a clever technology that uses much less energy to keep us comfortable. They will be a very important technology for the next few decades in the UK.
All the best
Tom
We've only had our heat pump for just over a week. The biggest shock has been seeing more than a week's electricity consumption per day! Yes it's been cold. We'd been lead to believe our heating and hot water would be cheaper. We are seriously out of pocket so far. Our oil boiler kept us very warm with no problem. We need to use our log burner to get warm. Perhaps over a year we might save. The jury is out. We both hope we've made the correct decision. If this forum is still up I'll update next year.
Hi MOS Vids - yes the last week must have been the biggest shock on electricity costs. Having negative temperatures for a week / 10days has been pretty crazy! Our heating has been very expensive too and efficiencies have been pretty low.
My analysis of our system is that, at price guarantee rates, it is now cheaper to run than our old gas boiler and I would suggest much cheaper than oil.
The key would be making sure you’re operating as efficiently as possible by keeping flow temperatures to the minimum required via an appropriate weather compensation curve.
You might be concerned at costs over the next couple of months but should be similar to oil if not cheaper and come slightly milder weather in the spring it should be very cheap to run
Good on you for moving away from Oil though. That’s a great step for all of us!
How many units are you using per day?
@@Medea007 I will check tonight and let you know tomorrow. During our first week we were getting through 40+ kWh daily. Yesterday was less than 9 kWh. Until tomorrow. Peter
Morning Mo, Foul here today. Pump on overtime. Yesterday, according to the pump's app, 16 kWh. 7c outside.
When you need the heat the most (when it's cold outside) is when the heat pump operates at least efficiency. These units are only feasible in warmer climates, or with extremely well-insulated houses.
Thanks for the calculations. Don't forget that on top of the increase in costs, you also need to factor in the cost of installation. So from a purely economic perspective, install a heat pump if you're already at that point where you might need to replace an existing boiler. And, as you mentioned, coupling it with Solar, works really well too.
Absolutely. We were actually part of a research project that was fully funded. So there wasn’t a cost for us. But the bill for installation was around £11k, that would have been £5k with the boiler upgrade scheme.
I would say heat pumps dont necessarily have a payback on the capital cost. But the reduction in emissions is huge!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Nice. We're looking for a new project and have found a house with large plot that needs a lot of work. No cavity wall insulation, no double-glazing, garden needs redoing and still has that 1970's decor. So we're doing the numbers on ground source heating, insulating the whole house and solar (luckily it has a large south-facing roof pitch).
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle what I find disappointing is the 5k grant being eaten up by the installers profit rather than passed onto the customer. For me it works out they are charging 5k labour for 5 or 6 days work when the usual already expensive day rate is 300 to 500. I really like the arotherm plus.
@@handle1196 Hi Dan, that is interesting to hear, I am hoping the boiler upgrade scheme is offering some discount to customers. A heat pump install can be a big job that we want designing, sizing and installing carefully, but how cheap could / should an install be...? Is a tough question. I definitely don't want to hear examples of cheap installs that go wrong!
I think the arotherm plus looks great as well as working well for us (even with cold weather!)
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle a day rate for an engineer is usually 300 to 500 depending on where you are in the country. I was told that a gas install, plant room only would take 5 days, heat pump around 6 days.
I can purchase everything for 9000 but some companies want 16k before the bus scheme grant. Ive completed my heat loss calcs, i noticed some companies putting a huge markup on all materials. 3k more on a pump, 500 more on a wall controller etc.
I'd have thought, 6 days labour, 9k of materials minus 5k grant.
Costs are prohibitive for most people, it isn't going to save money just cost a fortune in electric, you have to admit it just does not work, it about time we had a breath of realism here.
Hi Peter, thanks for the comment, I agree costs to install a heat pump are prohibitive for many. And would suggest there is a role for government and many landlords to help decarbonise buildings.
I would argue that a well installed heat pump shouldn’t cost a fortune in electricity costs, and could be cheaper to run that a gas boiler.
My system works and my calculation suggests, based on the price cap rates, we are now saving money vs a gas boiler.
If a heat pump could be installed with solar PV then even cheaper (I haven’t done that yet).
I guess the realism should include the risks that being reliant on gas give us… risks of future extreme weather linked to emissions, poor air quality, carbon monoxide poisoning, volatile prices, funding despots like Putin etc. The quicker we can get away from gas boilers, the better. And, heat pumps are basically the only option for doing so.
Hope you’re having a good weekend
Tom
Here in Ohio USA our minimum gas bill is $32 month even when we use zero gas. The fee pays for the pipes! Planning on going to heat pump in next year which is our only gas usage. Extra money should help offset electric cost increase. Thanks for the video!
Thanks Robert, similar set up here, until you remove a gas meter you have to pay to stay connected... even if you have disconnected all the gas.
Great to hear you could take the step. I think you wont regret it!
I notice how much heat is thrown out from the air con units at my local supermarket to keep the fridges cold. Surely this adds to local warming? I just need to get a ASHP to use this free energy! Great channel, thanks.
Thanks for commenting Robert! I actually have a video talking through the impact of heat pumps on the local temperature... ruclips.net/video/VxmIWiEJoTk/видео.html
I agree that air con systems will be making local temperature higher if installed in too much density, but ultimately the heat returns to where it is moved from. Which is why the fridges need constant cooling. And the refrigerant cycle is just recycling coolth from outside to the inside, and adding a small amount of heat from the electricity supply in the process.
You are definitely identifying a potential source of heat that we should use in the future though... we have waste heat everywhere! If you walk past the exhaust of a swimming pool ventilation system, you will notice how warm it is, similar to many big buildings and as you identify, the cooling system at supermarkets. If we had heat pumps nearby, these systems would see a higher temperature and that would help increase efficiency.
And maybe that is good design in dense locations.
And finally - yes, air source heat pumps are taking free energy from one place and moving it to where we want it...!
Thanks for engaging with the video!
Tom
We have solar Pv and that makes a huge difference.
We’re getting a battery soon and that will mean that our energy costs (per kWh) will plummet further.
Keep up the good work, really enjoyed your informative video.
Yeah absolutely, we don’t have PV yet but with electrified heat, transport, hot water, cooking etc it makes so much sense to generate some locally!
Thanks for commenting!
Tom very interesting info. May I ask the most important question. What was the cost of the total heat pump install from start to finish. I have a lpg combi boiler and to replace it without any extras will be £2.5k with 10 year warranty and future proof. So as a working class family this is acceptable and I don't have a hot water cylinder use what I need when I need it. I have 9kw solar and winter has its issues like it would not even charge my 5kw storage battery during a day. So Costs is the key,saving the planet is secondary.
Hi Gino - I’ll just ask you to have a think about the consequences of your last sentence… ‘saving the planet is secondary’? Where are we going to live?!
Total cost of our system was ~£11k.
LPG boiler is not future proof. It is already out of date. And subject to major variance of fuel supply. And will be costing you a lot to run.
A heat pump would need a hot water cylinder. That would be part of the costs.
We wouldn’t expect solar to work well in winter (short and cloudy days) but will still generate some electricity and contribute towards heat pump costs slightly. Autumn and spring it will be doing a great job.
A 9 kW system will generate ~7200 kWh per year. Which would be much more than a heat pump needs, I realise generation tends to be in summer and heating in winter but there will be some synergy.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle great response, we can only help but individuals cannot stop the destruction of our world it's the big boys like China as well as a huge list that goes on and on, the UK sounds like it's one of the good country's but it's as bad as them all by our sourcing our waist which creates more comming back. We should ban cruise ships ,aircraft ,motor sport that alone would make a huge difference. I will have a heat pump but mine will work in conjunction with my lpg boiler as I do not want all my eggs in one basket. I am making changes by adding another 6kw of solar to increase winter production and replaced my small generator to deal with loads associated with heat pumps and ev chargers. If we have power cuts I will still have heating hot water and be able to use my EVs as normal. Just for info my last power cut was a duration of 3 days so like I said different sources and not just reply on one which is the way we are going. Let's hope our government builds more power stations to keep everyone using electric when they need to use it.
Ive got one - very expensive to run in the colder months... its ok in the summer but then again all my thermostats in every room are switched off!😄
Hi David, thanks for sharing, I guess all heating systems are expensive to run in the colder months…? I think, at the current price cap rates, and at fairly average efficiencies a heat pump is more or less the same cost as a gas boiler, but much lower emissions!
Tom
Hi Tom, just stumbled across this, thank you, really informative. I had an ASHP installed in Feb last year. (9kW Samsung system with internal gubbins made by Joule - approx £15k all in, including changing all radiators on our 4 bed detached house, in case anyone would like to know).
Our motive was purely environmental, and to stop using gas altogether, which I’m pleased to say we have achieved with this. Anyone I speak to, and we do get lots of interest due to location of outside unit, thinks I am mad for chucking away a perfectly serviceable gas boiler for this, but I am happy with the decision and for me, it’s worth it knowing we are doing what we can to reduce our Impact on this small green planet.
I’m on a green energy tariff with Octopus too, so can sleep soundly knowing that our electricity is generated without fossil fuels - assuming Octopus do as they say.
I’m a little nervous for when our current 2 yr fixed rate ends in March ‘23, but am prepared as much as I can be!
My initial plan was to install solar PV and batteries at the same time and become self suffice to for energy, but the costs were utterly prohibitive for us, so this remains a pipe dream for the foreseeable future.
Anyway, glad your system is working well for you, and thanks for taking the time to explain things better than I ever could 👍
Hi Adam, great to hear from you.
Pleased to hear of a system working well and the intentions of reducing emissions, you are not mad I can assure you!
It is likely that your costs will go up in March '23, hopefully there will still be some price cap coming into the spring / summer, but even with that price cap, it will be quite the shock I think. I did a similar video based on the price cap rates that might help understand what is to come for you.- ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html
Solar PV is definitely the next step in terms of costs and will pay for themselves, particularly if you can use a lot of the electricity they generate, batteries an added bonus, but not essential.
Thanks for engaging!
Tom
That's really helpful, thanks again. Yes, I reckon our costs will roughly double as things stand.
My system has used ~2700kWh in 10 months, so I think we'll be not far off your usage depending what kind of winter we have.
How would I work out how efficient my system is?
I used a small local company to install my system, they are still finding thier feet with ASHP, so it's not been the smoothest set up sadly, and it's been a learning curve for both parties, but not 100% confident they know enough to ensure the system is running optimally. They are still looking at how we can improve water flow around my radiators downstairs as its not as good as it could be. Any sane person reading this must think I'm mad, with the patience of a Saint, given that the installer is still not done after 10 months, but we've never been without heating or hot water, and appreciate that they are learning too so I see it helping a local company improve.
I should do a lesson learned blog when all done!
This climate change fiasco is turning cultish. There's nothing we can do to change the weather. It is beyond our control. All I see here is gov has seduced people unthinking they can make a difference when in fact your not making even the slightest difference at all.
Hi Tom, I would check the installation manual for the Vailant, what is the minimum required distance from the back wall? From the video it looks very close. ASHPs need clear air flow to extract thermal energy. My installers put my Daikin Altherma 3 150mm from the wall behind. I insisted they move it to at least 350mm from the wall, which is what the installation manual specifies. The COP improved about 20% overnight. If your installer is on the MCS register you can require them to move it.
BTW I got a cop of 3.3 last year for space heating. But, the ASHP consumption was much better than expected, about 2000kwh for space heating of a Victorian 3 bed terrace. The gas boiler in previous years used over 9000kwh, so with electricity prices being usually 4x gas, the ASHP cost less to run for the year, in my case. Also I was WFH for most of winter 2021/2022.
Thanks for commenting Matthew, not the 1st person to notice that. The space at the rear is 250mm, the Vaillant installation doc suggests 200mm, BUT the free space on the RHS is only 200mm, which should be 500mm. I understand this is for access and maintenance rather than efficiency, but not great that they installed without following guidance. I reached out to Vaillant for comment but will go back to installer too. Brill to hear about your 20% improvement. I wonder whether moving slightly further out might help improve ours!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle hmm, it might help a bit. On the other hand your COP for the year isn't terrible. Mine was often below 2.5 during a very mild autumn, and the whole system was supposed to have a COP of 3.7 for the whole winter. I've got 3.3 this winter, even allowing for that fix, and I do live in Bristol, which is a bit milder than the North East. Although I should add they also checked the coolant charge in the system, becuase they had to drain it all off to move the compressor anyway. They said was a bit low and Daikin hadn't been putting enough in at the factory on other units they'd had. So I don't know how much of my improvement was that and how much was the extra space.
3.3 sounds like a good place to be!
I have heard before that units are not filled completely out of the factory - it seems strange to me that a unit would be sold to an installer but not ready for commissioning...
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle The installers reckon Daikin were timing the refrigerant as they put it in rather than weighing it, and depending on the temp at the time it's built it could end up taking up a different volume. I did mention this to the Daikin reps at fullychargedshow this year. They weren't aware of it being a problem but they did take it seriously. It's something manufacturers need to make sure they get right, because it affects efficiency, and gives fuel to the people who claim heat pumps don't work.
BTW, one cheap improvement I'd suggest trying this winter is the Speed Comfort radiator fan. I got one in Feb for the large double radiator that's behind the sofa. The speed comfort pushes the warm air up and out into the room, instead of leaving it trapped. That radiator heats most of the living space downstairs and the thermostat is in the same room. On the days I switched it off consumption went up. On days with it on I was getting say 11kwh, without it that would jump to 13 o 14. It's not a scientific test but I'm fairly sure it kept the consumption down. Speed Comfort's site says I should get 3 for my long radiator, but one made a huge difference. They do make a little bit of noise, so I wouldn't have lots of them around the house.
Excellent video Tom, I’m in rural Worcestershire. Daikin ASHP with Mixergy cylinder fitted April 21. We used 4239kWh electric to generate 16044kWh heat. 3.78 SCOP in 220m2 bungalow from 2002. I have 4kW of solar PV. I used a Nest to control for the year. Now I’ve switched over to weather compensation to compare. Very interesting in your numbers. Probably more accurate than mine.
Thanks for commenting Julian. Very impressed with a sCOP that high. I think ours could be higher next year as I’ve learned a bit more about how to optimise the system!
My numbers come from a heat meter and an electricity meter connected to the system, how do you work out yours?
I imagine your PV provides a lot of the electricity the heat pump needs? And if the PV can heat a lot of the hot water, that may improve the sCOP too.
I’d be interested to hear about moving to WC controls from a 3rd party controller!
My SCOP is calculated by knowing how much electric is consumed (via accurate electric meter to the ASHP) but excluding radiator circulation pump. Heat generated is from the Daikin ASHP read out (this is broken down by heat & h/w, but I just take the sum). You are correct that my solar PV diverts (via Solic 200) to heat my h/w with spare electric which improves efficiency. I also do not know how much of my electric used is grid vs solar PV - just the total. We didn’t change any radiators. And we have 10mm microbore drops to each radiator (from 32 or 28mm main runs in the loft)
Interesting! I think our electricity meter includes pump power so that would bring sCOPs a bit closer together but still think you are running much more efficiently!
Do you have a grasp of what the COP has done over the summer with minimal / no heating demand and just hot water?
It’s great to hear an example of a good install with fairly standard radiators in a normal home - I think a lot of what is said about heat pumps makes out that we need Passivhaus standards of insulation before they will work.
I love the honesty of this video. I will wait and see if a more efficient heat pump comes out before the grand stops. Not looking to spend more for less.
Thanks ICO - I should say that since this video, changes to price cap, and with some improvements to our efficiency, I think I am now saving compared to a gas boiler.
I did an update video here … ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
If / when we were able to get solar PV, we would save even more.
I guess the wider benefits - better air quality, no carbon monoxide risk, lower CO2 emissions, and we’ve actually found it more comfortable, for a similar cost.
Good stuff Tom
Heat pumps are great if you are into reducing carbon foot printing over your energy bills, but I think its a lot to pay the energy suppliers just to keep almost warm for the best part of the year, and have your mass hot water storage thermostat clicking on more regularly due to it loosing heat and having a low recovery rate once the "warm" water has been drawn off.
I also work with refrigeration/aircon heat pumps, as well as gas, electrical, and other mechanical equipment. Its very rare I actually recommend and fit an air sourced system for heating, I only recommend and fit air con systems for cooling, and advise my customers that the system has an heating function should they wish to use it, but to keep an eye on their electric bill and compare it to their gas bill if they have a gas supply to check if their costs go up, and the costs usually do go up. If I sold them an air sourced heat pump, I would feel like I'm mis selling a product to them, it would be like selling them a car that cost nearly twice as much as the one they bought 3-5 years ago, and didn't offer the same MPG or acceleration performance. I would always recommend gas heating for affordability and economy with most households, unless they were more keen and sold on being "green".
I do however fit the occasional ground sourced and heat recovery/scavenged heat pump systems only when I'm asked, and I leave it them to purchase a system that I have designed for them, usually only the high end though. The overall COP is more constant, but in the case of the ground source, it still works out more expensive than gas. And of course, a large garden is needed, even for an augured ground coil insert, a suitably sized area of garden is still required, and a soft strata for both scenarios.
The heat recovery scavenged systems are much more effective and economical, as the luxury of free wasted heat is available to recover and re use, it just means that the flue chimney heat exchanger section from the industrial ovens has to be dismantled for cleaning more regularly, due to the process waste condensing in the stack due to a lower dew point point now existing by removing the heat from it.
Then there's the water from the evaporative coolers on the ammonia and other industrial refrigerated plants, at some point when the outdoor conditions are optimally ideal, the flow to the evaporative water on the condensers can be reduced so that the cooling water doesn't evaporate, and can be diverted to a heat exchanger for a heat pump system. The water is chemically treated, and scale content is reduced, so it can be dumped back to the cooling water reservoir. It actually offers more efficient cooling to the condenser, and reduces the amount of chemicals to retreat it and reduces the make up water to top off the return water.
In any of the cases of heat recovery, the optimum compressor/pot back pressure has to be maintained by maintaining a specific superheat, otherwise the COP swings back towards an air source heat pump or worse, defeating the object of recovering wasted heat, even though the heat source is free and more available than humid fresh air. With the current air sourced technology, the only way to make it more commercially viable is for the greedy fat cats to keep on increasing the gas prices so they are higher than electricity, but they know if they do this, their shares will plummet. Hydrogen will be more a viable option for future energy for heating sources, or maybe a combination of both especially for domestic use. The hydrogen boilers may need a catalyst or other type of capture system to neutralise the NOx emissions, and of course the processing cost has to come down otherwise it won't be getting sold.
Digressing
Some or more folk might even open up their chimney breasts a go back to coal fires and take the risk of being bollocked or fined by the wonderful council if the price hike increases. If most houses actually did take that option and just used their gas heating systems to supplement, it would be interesting to see the outcome. Probably the rich and posh, and other folk who believe everything they read and hear with nothing else better to do would probably make the complaints. Even if a carbon capture and de sulpherisation system was installed in the chimney, the overall layout cost of installing, running, and maintaining might be cheaper than a heat pump system and being held to ransom as a captive audience by the energy companies. The CO2 and sulphuric by products could be sold onto the industries that use it as part of their processes, reducing the need to manufacture and mining. Its just the renewable factor that would be the main issue, unless of course its a biomass or domestic waste, which the council allow to be incerated, usually not making use of the heat generated, and hopefully monitoring and keeping the stack emissions to zero. Lets hope they don't have any double standards complying with the clan air act.
I will also add, I live in an apartment block in a listed old mill with no garden, and nothing can be installed on the exterior unless it blends in with the date line of the building, and of course no noise. Access would be near impossible, and expensive. I was approached by a customer a few years ago about installing an air con system/heat pump who lived in a similar situation, as they had been told how great and environmentally friendly they were compared to gas heating. They were quoted for air sourced systems by other company sales men. Who told them that the condenser unit wouldn't need to be accessed ever again once it was installed on the outside wall of the 3rd floor, and scaffolding would be required only once costing around 5 k on top of the 13 k for the system. It was a mews type apartment where they lived, again nothing could be installed on the outside walls, not even a barrel or water butt on the ground to collect top water/white water, so why were the other companies quoting for a system that needed to be mounted on an outside wall is any ones guess. The other companies didn't offer an alternative heat pump application, such as maybe installing the outdoor unit inside the apartment building inside a purpose built cupboard or wardrobe, removing a window or part of a window to convert into a vent to supply a constant airflow in a ducted system. They got in touch with me, and I asked them if they were on a fixed annual charge tariff for their water rates with no water meter, and suggested a water cooled/heat recovery system installed inside the building, and they were so pleased that this could be done as an alternative to fitting the unit outside where it was forbidden. They invited me to their home to quote for the system, but I did advise that the running costs could still be higher than their gas central heating system, but they were dead set sold on a heat pump.
The job was still expensive but almost half the price of what he had been quoted, in the worst case scenario the system uses an average of around a cubic meter or more an hour for cooling having a COP of around 3.5 - 4, and around 5 -5.5 for heating, using about half of a cubic meter for heating water, with scavenging heat from 4 air handlers. I decided to use a dual primary and secondary indirect glycol plate heat exchanger, so the secondary supplying the mass storage tank could be isolated and drained, and removed during a service visit to descale, without having to carry out a fridge system break in. Due to the small size of the heat exchanger though, it is optimised to reject heat into the water to around 47 C, so in cooling mode, it just simply dumps the excess warm water that doesn't get drawn off or used for cooling, down the drain. I suggested that it could feed a neighbouring properties mass storage makeup water, but the apartment rules forbid it. The heat recovery rate is always the classic problem and one of the main downsides with heat pumps though.
If the system was on a water meter, it wouldn't provide economical cooling or heating as the make up water would be charged per the amount used, and the amount of make up water would have to be throttled down with the risk of reducing the efficiency of the fridge system by causing a higher superheat. Making it much cheaper to heat with gas. Even if the condensate water from the air handlers was used to top up the make up water. The only major problem with this type of system is, the customer lives in Kent, and they can't get anyone local to service it, they tell me that other engineers get scared as soon as they look at it, because they are only used to installing air sourced splits, and their skill level and knowledge, and perception of heat rejection and absorption is limited, especially when a medium other than air is used.
Gas central heating is more straight forward and more reliable than most heat pump applications, as long as there's a gas supply to a building, a suitable point to exhaust the gas fumes and maybe a requirement for ventilation. Gas heating has been tried and tested for a lot of years, it works well and will continue to work well, requiring only regular safety checks, and minor servicing that doesn't take 5 hours, 10, hours 24 hours or more of carrying out a system break in to replace components then a long tightness test, leak test, vack down and recharge etc. And there are plenty of gas engineers that know there stuff who install and understand the mechanics of a boiler and a heating system, compared with most aircon and heat pump engineers. That unfortunately just seem to be mainly split bashers and installers that really need to brush up on their knowledge and improve their skill set. Otherwise, if heat pumps do become more than an alternative option, the energy efficiency claims will be much lower than the manufacturers claim at the design stage, resulting with customers wishing they had stuck with or chosen gas heating.
Hi Poorman Skint - thanks for the comprehensive message. Ultimately it boils down to whether you recognise there is a climate emergency or not. If you do, we need to move away from fossil fuels as soon as possible. If you don't, then you need to look at the science, look at the impact of extreme weather this year in pakistan and europe, think about the numbers of people impacted by our wasteful lives and then move away from fossil fuels as quickly as possible.
Gas boilers are not an option in a low carbon economy.
Hydrogen boilers would be irresponsible and expensive when there is a requirement for hydrogen already that we currently meet by very high carbon sources of hydrogen. Heat pumps are the only option for about 70-80% of homes.
Mmmm, I wonder what caused world disasters before fossil fuels were consumed. Lets not forget Doggerland, now there's a place that disappeared before the Greek and Roman Empires ever existed, maybe they did consume fossil fuels after all back then, but there's no evidence or anything recorded, so maybe not.
Also let us not forget Pompei, maybe something they were using back then caused things like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, Tsunamis, abnormal Elnino's, solar flares, shifting magnetic poles, North and South tropical equators having a variable distance than they are shown on a globe, the rotation of outer spiral arms of the Milky way that pass through varying amounts of entropical masses having variable energy levels that can cause temperatures to increase and decrease within anything that passes through it. Maybe all that kind of stuff didn't really happen back then, they just made some of it up to make history sound exciting.
Hydrogen burners have been around for a few years now, and most leading brands of gas boilers are hydrogen ready, the networks are already starting to add blue and green hydrogen to gas supplies, and it is planned to have around 80% of gas consumers running purely on green hydrogen between 2035 and 2050. The main problem will be NOx in the emissions, this can be reduced to almost nothing using EGR and a catalyst. The technology is being improved all the time. Grey hydrogen is slowly being phased out, and will not be used to supply fuel for heating.
There is nothing irresponsible about hydrogen, it is the future first choice for heat sources due to practicality and simplicity. Heat pumps are far too fragile overall to support an economical means of heating application.
Most of the gas burners that I work with range between 350 KW and 650 KW, there is no way that an heat pump could support the heat requirement and the amount of energy that an industrial process requires, let alone a small steam boiler for commercial applications. Air sourced heat pumps will remain as a non ideal option for heating due to their high outlay and high running costs, that are not practically comparable to the lower outlay and running costs and the performance of gas heating. In addition, to the poor specification and under sized designs of het pumps, that are only efficient for up to the first week of their install by the majority of split bashers who just seem like they are almost clueless about refrigeration, and aircon/heatpump in general. Along with the companies that sell a product that will only offer a non constant and fragile performance based on the ideology of a not too low single figured humid day, for them to match the high COP and SEER claims. Their performance is about as reliable as a British weather forecast. Their maintenance costs are much higher than a gas boiler, and the medium inside a heat pump has a very high TEWI, higher than Natural Gas or Hydrogen.
Heat pumps are good if there is a reliable and constant source of wasted heat that can be scavenged and recycled, in which case the COP and SEER will be almost constant. But will only support the requirements of a low background heat, warm water for washing and bathing with a poor heat heat recovery rate, much lower than gas or electric heating.
Carbon and sulphuric capture have been available since the mid 80s for when fossil fuels are consumed for any application, but they are currently expensive, but maybe cheaper than installing and running a heat pump. Leaving only the problem with renewables.
Time will tell.
Good luck with your air sourced heat pumps.
HI Poorman Skint - in terms of the historical changes in climate, the earth has never seen (or hasnt since humans were around) such rapid warming as we have seen in the last 200 years. 1.1-1.2°C warmer on average today than pre-industrial times. That means the earth's weather systems have changed, permanently. There is no time previously where temperature has changed that quickly.
Your perspective on hydrogen is fairly idealistic I am afraid. Did you see the report this week on hydrogen for heat? www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(22)00416-0 this was covered in lots of news outlets too - www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/27/hydrogen-is-unsuitable-for-home-heating-review-concludes www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63050910.amp www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/hydrogen-heating-homes-energy-britain-b2176498.html
In my work we are installing heat pumps of the kind of load you are suggesting.
Although I agree there is a case for using hydrogen to decarbonise industrial processes, just not home heating. Green hydrogen will be a prescious fuel, and there are several use cases that we should prioritise before we get to heating. Have you seen Liebriech's hydrogen ladder? www.liebreich.com/the-clean-hydrogen-ladder-now-updated-to-v4-1/
A lot of what you are saying is talking about refrigerant based systems (like air to air heating and cooling systems). An air to water heat pump like ours has a small amount of propane working fluid that is contained in the heat pump, propane has a GWP (global warming potential) 3.3x higher than CO2, but it is used in very small quantities and not burnt. It does not offer coolinng, so SEER is not relevant.
It would be great to chat these issues through with you in more detail, as I think, although you have extensive knowledge on this, you have some misunderstanding! Get in touch with tom.bray@me.com if you fancied a call
Tom
As an electrician I see things in a different way.
I fitted an 8kW solar voltaic system on my roof, then a unit called an iboost going into an emersion tank with two 1.5kW elements this works with any surplus electricity being diverted into the tank after the house has been satisfied rather than going back to the grid.
The tank is also supplied by a gas boiler for the winter months when solar is low.The gas boiler is turned on about the second week of Sep.as a back up for the increasingly cloudy days and reducing solar,it then stays on untill about the first week of March when it is switched off.
We have a log burner for heating and this is more than adequate.
The winter bill for gas and electricity go's up but is paid back through summer with savings and grid payments for the solar energy.
Our total bill on today's predictions including wood and running a hot tub and an electric aga is £1750.00.
The solar installation with 8kW of battery back up came to £7800 this was fitted about two years ago.
As regards the battery's life they are expected to last approx 7-10 years replacement is on a decending scale as technology improves.
To have an air source heat pump fitted I had one costed, £25000.
Since I've built an extension we could fit more panels and even then we wouldn't hit £25000!
The only maintenance required is to wash the panels that's done by the window cleaner for a tenner every quarter.
@@phillipneale5256 Hi Phillip - thanks for this. It is good to hear other experiences of new technology. A big solar system supporting hot water and a battery is definitely going to be value for money, and provide you with a lot of the electricity you need.
I guess the challenge is on the use of gas, and to some extent the log burner . Both will still have CO2 emissions that we will need to reduce in the coming years (although CO2 emissions from a log burner will be pretty low emissions if you can use dead wood and avoid chopping down trees). A heat pump has been a great step for our house, and reduces emissions linked to heating by 70% today, and will continue to get lower as the national grid gets cleaner.
I must admit to being surprised at £25000 for a heat pump. I assume you live in a big house? Possible quite uninsulated? What were they proposing?
Our system was worth around £11k and included a new hot water tank and full replacement of radiators. This is still a lot of money, but with the £5k boiler upgrade scheme grant, costs start to become reasonable.
Tom
Hi Tom, Solar and Pumps go hand in hand, if you are going Solar the single biggest regret from other RUclipsr's who'd fitted solar was not utilizing their roof for the biggest array they could afford. Especially with a Pump over winter bigger the array the better. We took that on board our house has east west and ended up with 9.3KW array then got a pump.
Fantastic! Yes I agree maximising solar makes sense if you can afford it. For future EV charging as well as heat pump etc. We’ll do our best when we come to it!
Thanks for the informative video, myself and partner are now researching heat pumps for our new house.
Apologies if already mentioned but what type of heat pump do you use, air or ground? Thanks.
Hi Keith, pleased to be of help. Our heat pump is an air source heat pump, i.e. taking heat from outside our house and moving it inside.
Ours works well in our Victorian Terrace that isn't too well insulated, but newer, more insulated homes, with a well installed system, and operated efficiently, would be great too!
Hi Tim, great series and I too love my heat pump. I get a COP of closer to 5 but that is with a 100% underfloor system, oh and its in Spain which is slightly warmer on average! I think have seen mentioned on twitter but I thought I would mention again. The air flow looks like it may be restricted around your heat pump. If it is creating a cold well this will especially in very cold weather really impact your performance. Looks forward to some updates this winter!
Thanks Adam, a COP of 5 - we can only dream!
I have had a look at the installation instructions for the uniti - page 69 here - www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-plus/arotherm-plus-operating-installation-and-maintenance-instructions-1799368.pdf - dimension D is the one I might be concerned about, so I will measure this later on, the others I think have plenty space. I don't think the area because a cold well as is quite exposed to wind / air movement but there is some risk.
Hoping we can get a bit better COP this winter now I am more comfortable with how the system works and how to maintain comfortable temperatures. We shall see!
Tom
Those COPs. are very impressive; do you have a geothermal or ground source HP?
@@bobboscarato1313 Hi Bob - I have an air source heat pump, but I think Adam's COPs are higher because the average temperature is much higher in Spain, a heat pump operating at 5 degrees is much more efficient that a heat pump at -5!
@@bobboscarato1313 Hi Bob, yes what Tom has said below is correct. Rare for it to get below 0 where my house is. But to add, I have underfloor in the whole house. Spring and autumn using weather compensation flow temps are between 30-33 oC. Only in Dec/Jan do they get to the giddy heights of 35. So it means the heat pump is very efficient. This would also help if I was still on Gas, but even better with a HP.
@@adamcole4808 Thanks; good to know.-
You haven't discussed the cost of installing the heat pump and the cost of improvements being made to your home
Hi Anthony - thanks for commenting, I have discussed that in detail on other videos across my channel but to save you watching a load of my drivel....
I was fortunate enough to be part of a fully funded scheme where I live. This would have cost £11k to install almost 2 years ago. If we had installed this, funding ourselves, we would have been eligible for the renewable heat incentive, that would have paid for the majority of the install over 7 years.
Improvements to our home - we bought this house back in 2018 and refurbished it. We installed double glazing (£6k), and loft insulation (£300), and built a small extension at the rear of the property (we didn't ever want to fully account for the costs of this as it was more than we wanted to accept... all went on our mortgage). There is more work we could do to insulate better (floor, walls) and I would like to do more in the future.
The majority of the house hasn't been upgraded (other than the glazing), so is more or less as built in 1890. The system is performing well with an efficiency of just about 3 since installation. I think this now means we are breaking even with our old gas boiler.
In the future I would like to install solar panels (roof needs some work before we do that), that will reduce costs further. Similarly, I have bought into the 2nd round of the Ripple Energy Scheme, which will give me some money off our electricity bills for the next 25 years.
Thanks - hope that is interesting / helpful
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks for the extensive reply Tom. Not bad at all getting the heat pump for free! Was that 11k minus the 5k grant if you funded it yourself?
I wasn't quite ready for a heat pump I felt it needs to be proven more before I take the leap. However I am interested in low temperature heating so i got a Vaillant boiler with weather compensation and hot water priority along with oversized radiators and UFH controlled by sensocomfort, I'm able to run radiators at a curve of 0.7 and UFH at 0.45. Boiler running at a flow temp of 40-42c on a cold day
Hopefully if heat pumps take off in future I will be able to put one in without too much distruption. Would be nice to be able to cool the underfloor heating in summer by reversing the heat pump. Enjoyed your vid will look forward to future updates
Yes it was a great result for us! Yes £11k total cost so would have been £6k with grant.
I suspect running a new boiler at low temperatures and weather compensated as you describe will mean your gas use is very low, so that’s a great step forward. And sounds like your house is pretty much ready for a heat pump at 42-43°.
Thanks for the comment. All the best.
Tom
Finally a real heat pump 1 year review
Pleased to fill a gap..!
Hello Tom Bray; make sure solar cells are installed on the ground and not on the roof. My neighbor did that 20 years ago and the shingle roof had to be replaced. They tore down all the solar cells for good. It was a very expensive learning experience. However if you have a slate or tile roof, it may be alright. Cheers from Tomball, Texas.-
Hi Bob - thanks so much for messaging. Interesting about roof replacement and solar PV, we don't have much space around our house so the roof would be an attractive option, and I would hope that for any future maintenance I would employ a contractor who would be sensitive to both the structure of the house and the solar panels installed, but take the point that solar on a roof can cause future complications!
Most of the roofs in the UK are slate or tile but I am sure there are similar issues.
Great to hear my videos are being watched in Texas!
Shingles are not permitted on residential properties in the UK under our building regulations, because they're junk and belong on garden sheds :D Slate or Tile over here.
@@dorsetengineering We have home owners associations which are real bad. I park my 20 y/o commercial truck which I use as a private car now. Lawyer sent letter to HOA!
Worth mentioning that when (not if) the prices of gas and electricity are properly adjusted so the gas price isn't setting the electricity price, then your system will really come into its own and start to pay for itself
Definitely!
It would be interesting to see how that might be approached, I guess the price of electricity is the cost to meet the last bit of demand, otherwise the last generator would be losing money to meet the demand. Which is why gas (or coal), which tends to be the peaking plant, sets the price.
The more renewable generation we have the less need for the peaking plant, and potentially a lower cost.
I know there is thinking about changing how the market works but not sure how we would ensure we have enough energy…!
It needs to because it also needs to pay for the additional cost of the installation and maintenance.
Hi Chris - I’m not sure heat pumps are ever going to ‘payback’ but if we can get cheap finance or a grant then it could help reduce costs.
I would say that many people buy a wide range of things without considering payback but because they want a change in lifestyle - a new kitchen, a big TV, a new car etc. A heat pump could be seen in this way - ‘I want to reduce my emissions, reduce the impact on the environment, reduce my reliance on Putin’s gas, improve my comfort, so, I am going to get rid of my gas boiler and install a heat pump’ - a bonus could be if reduces monthly outgoings a little, and could add value to a house.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Yep, I understand the concept but a lot of people can't afford the extra. Cheap finance or grants don't really change that cost, either delay or redistribute the cost.
I'm not anti, I just think it needs to be a hell of a lot cheaper if you want to take people along with your thinking.
@@ChrisLee-yr7tz I would say that redistributing costs to those that have caused the climate crisis (i.e. those oil and gas companies that are makings £100s billions profit each year at the moment) sounds like a very fair way of paying for low carbon heating systems!
Nice video. Talking about the PV, they don’t deliver as much during winter time which is the peak time for an ASHP…..
Very true - but in spring and autumn when there is some heating and some solar PV - it works quite nicely. If we look at the 12 months as a whole a decarbonised system could be a very low cost system!
Thanks for this Tom, very useful. Just putting in a heat pump to get off oil central heating. Also installing solar and battery solution, so should only ever be topping up our battery on the low rate overnight. Looking forward to capturing data, but from what I can see, we will be drastically reducing our emissions and saving money over the next few years. 👍
Thanks Kyle, pleased it is helpful.
I am sure moving from oil to a heat pump, and installing solar, will see a big drop in costs, and massive drop in emissions!
So I'm in on Ripple, makes sense. Solar intergated into the roof is great, the trays mean the panels are flush to the roof. I suspect that when gas goes through the roof next year you will be quids in. Not just about the money though...
It does make sense to generate locally to power heating.
With the rates announced today the gap between heating with our heat pump and our old gas boiler is definitely closing, I think it could now be within 15%
My only concerns about your setup is the heat pump looks very boxed in, not favourable from an installation point of view. ( I install heat pumps for a living ) , what curve setting are you running, what your max flow temperature for heating?.
Hi Ken, thanks for the comment, I’ve come across you before via the Betatech podcast and twitter so happy to connect.
You’re not the 1st person to question the position of the heat pump, it does meet manufacturers installation recommendations except for on the right hand side, which I understand is for access for maintenance, rather than to ensure performance. It is something I’ve been meaning to raise with the installer.
I do tinker a bit with the curve but tends to be around 0.75. For the time I am talking about in this video I suspect it was higher with bigger swings in set back etc.
Max heating flow temp is 50°, although I am not sure it ever gets that high on that curve.
Thanks for commenting, your one of a bunch of very helpful installers that I’ve followed online!
Tom
Hi - I think it's the case that if you get an electric cooker/hob now you can disconnect gas and save standing charge, mine is currently £130 a year.
Yeah, spot on.
Although our hob/cooker is fairly new and we aren't planning to have a big outlay in the short term for a new cooker. And... most importantly, my wife isn't sure about cooking on an induction hob, I like it (cleaner, no problems with air quality, quicker heat etc) so we are paying the £105ish per year for gas cooking until we are ready to upgrade the cooker (and I have convinced my wife!)
It's good to see your calculations. However, when calculating it against your old gas boiler would mean you would have to service your gas boiler and run it as officiant as possible and maybe even at a lower temperature.
Fair point. I guess I was trying to be as conservative as possible. We did have our boiler serviced fairly often and ran it quite low. But I would be surprised if the efficiency was as high as I assumed.
I suspect the heat pump delivered more heat than the gas boiler did, partly because I was happier to have it running rather than worried about burning gas!
Thanks for doing this video. Really useful to have realworld figures. Have subscribed and will go back and watch the earlier vids.
Great stuff! Thanks for commenting and subscribing!
Heat pumps really work out if you have solar panels as well, My electric meter is actually running backwards during the summer months, building up a fund to pay for the more expensive winter bills. Yearly costs are cheaper than having gas.
Great stuff! We don’t have solar panels (yet) but our next door neighbour has just installed PV, a heat pump and a battery and is enjoying the summer payments!
Excuse me but some of us can produce our own gas, and not just in the garden. Really informative well balanced analysis, so thank you. We have had solar panels for about 8 years, I would certainly recommend them. I'm certain the positives of living in a terrace far out weigh the negatives. Thanks for the vid.
😂 - very true!
Thanks for the comment. Tom
unless the house is well insulated air source will cost a fortune to run and is inefficient especially in urban areas
Hi Steve - unless a house is well insulated, a gas boiler will cost a fortune to run and is inefficient, and contributes to poor air quality in urban areas.
Our heat pump is cheaper to run that a gas boiler at today’s price guarantee rates and works well in our area of terraced housing. And our house is a Victorian terrace with some double glazing and some loft insulation, so not well insulated but not too poorly insulated. Sorry that your experience is different.
Thanks for the comment
Tom
It's the energy part that's interesting. You're using 3 times less energy.
On the cost / CO2 side, look into a few smaller VAWT systems. That's what I'm looking into to offset my heat pump bills.
The cost isn't as interesting as people think. Once you move all your energy to electricity you can start applying local generation options.
Heat pumps and solar panels don't work well together. Heat pumps reduce your summer electricity usage.
However heat pumps and EVs do great together.
Oh, yeah, and the Ripple idea is excellent. Still, generating on site is kinda neat.
Hi Kevin - thanks for messaging. I think you’re spot on with the energy point. One of the main reasons why I advocate for more heat pumps. We need a smaller energy system (a bit more nuanced than that but….)
I’d be really interested in what you find around VAWT. I’m cautious about wind in built up areas but would be happy to learn more.
Solar panels and heat pumps work well together in the spring and autumn. Particularly if you have any east facing roof space. But I agree it’s not perfect.
I’m interested in your point about heat pumps and EVs - what do you think makes them work well together?
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle ok, yes, my panels just face south. An E/W orientation is a good idea.
My point about solar PV and EVs is that EV batteries are good places to dump excess PV energy. Meanwhile the annual production curve for PV vs the usage curve for a heat pump is that they're out of sync. Solar is at its height when the heat pump is at its min usage and vice versa in winter.
This winter I hope to get some stats on VAWTs. But I live in a rural area
Only we have to ask where does electricity come from if every house has a heat pump and electric car
It is a good question, a couple of points in response...
1) over the last 20-30 years, through energy efficiency, through losing some industrial process, the electricity demand in the UK has gone down, so... there is some spare capacity in the system to use.
2) Due to the efficiency of heat pumps (300% compared to 90% in a boiler), we are actually using a substantial amount less 'energy' i.e. rather than burning gas in a boiler, we could burn it in a power station to make electricity and still need less gas.
3) Electric vehicles (and to some extent heat pumps with hot water tanks) although us to shift when we use electricity i.e. charge a battery overnight when we have lower demand. This means that we don't necessarily need more generation capacity if we can spread when we do the charging.
4) we have built interconnectors with our neighbours that mean we can share electricity as it is needed, utilizing nuclear power in france, hydro-electric power in norway and sending our wind power when we have too much. It is likely that, over several countries, we have more than enough slack to take up some increase in demand
It is likely that we will need to strengthen electrical infrastructure but probably not as much as you might think.
Our heat pump, on the coldest day, draws less power than a kettle, so the electricity supply to our home didn't need an upgrade to fit it. If / when the whole street gets a heat pump, the substation upstream may need an upgrade, and that should be planned in as part of maintenance and refurbishment.
Similarly, as we have more electricity demand, we can plan to increase generation. This isn't happening overnight (although I might want it to!)
Tom
The electricity comes from burning fossil fuels. Its another scam just like EVs.
Inspiring! thanks for doing this :)
Thanks for commenting!
Assuming 10% was hot water, and that was overnight…*and* your COP would have been lower for hot water and therefore *higher* for heating - I think it might be close to parity. Also worth considering the grid will clean up so you’ll reduce CO2 even more, and over time electricity will need to become cheaper and gas more expensive as we transition so you’ll start to see higher savings
Absolutely! Over the summer the COP has been around 2.3-2.4, ie only hot water. I am expecting next year to be a bit better as we had some problems with heating in October that meant we didn’t really use the system properly. Also, when first installed, the hot water was on immersion only, so we may see much better COPs next year! Way too nuanced for an 8 minute video…!
And you’re spot on about CO2 and the grid. If we electrify things we reduce emissions year on year (or that’s the plan). Where we live I think the emissions are actually lower than the average for the UK (that’s what national grid’s ESO suggests) and it will get better!
And, yes, if electricity and gas tariffs move closer together, we’ll see savings with a heat pump. Magic!
Thanks for commenting!
Hi, thank you for this great breakdown! I was curious, what flow temperature setting / heat curve are you using?
Hi Michael - thanks for commenting, over the year I played with the settings a bit trying to maintain comfort but improve efficiency. I think during most of the heating season I was at a weather compensation curve of about 1.1-1.2. I am going to try the next heating season at a lower curve and see how we do. Obviously the lower we go the better the efficiency. We shall see!
Hello. Question: what is the temp set in the house ? Do you have Radiators of underfloor heating ?
Hi Adrian - if I remember last winter correctly, we tend to have the house at a minimum of 19 degrees, and a set back at night of 17. We have a small area of underfloor heating but mainly radiators 👍
My electric bill for winter was before fitting 400, after fitting this year 4000, so stuff the emissions putting a gas boiler back on will save me thousands
Hi Mr UK, what was your gas bill? Are you taking into account the energy crisis and increase in bills?
Would be happy to have a call to talk through how you can increase efficiency and reduce costs
Tom
If you switched to an electric cooker, you could loose your gas supply and save £105 per year on the standing charge.
Hi Hazmat, you are spot on. At the moment we have a gas hob that is in good nick and doesn't need replacing, aaaannnnd, most importantly, although I like cooking on an induction hob, my wife isn't convinced. We will stick with the gas hob for now, pay the uplift for a while but then when we might need to replace, we could look to go electric. The impact of our hob is tiny in terms of emissions. We have used less than 4m3 of gas this year which is about 7.5 kg of CO2 emissions. We'll get there one day, but not quite!
Is that an inverter heat pump? I've heard that inverter heat pumps have 40% less electricity cost than non-inverter heat pumps.
Hi Alex, if you mean by inverter heat pump that it has a variable output, the answer is yes, it can ramp up and down as required for the heat demand of the building.
I would say this is key to maximising efficiency, if we can control the output of the heat pump with weather compensation we can ensure it is always working as efficiently as we need
Thanks for the question!
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks for the response. Also, does the variable output work with A/C too? I've seen heat pumps with variable fans but with single-stage cooling. Are these considered inverters?
Hi Alex - I am not sure to be honest, I don't tend to use the word inverter in describing heat pump systems. The compressor is the interesting bit within a heat pump, and these are often 'scroll' compressors that can ramp up and down to deliver different amounts of heat or cooling, alongside fan speed.
You could add some Battery storage (very useful when you finally get PV too) and Octopus GO and charge the EV and the Batteries at cheap rate (currently 7.5p) and run the house and Heat Pump at off peak rates. Not only is this much cheaper but by load shifting you reduce CO2 as off-peak energy has the lowest CO2. Peak time is when they need to fire up all the coal stations etc to meet demand, not ideal. At current electric prices the battery RoI is suddenly a lot more palatable.
Hi Bm97ppc - you might be right. A battery is probably pretty financially attractive, and in many ways offers similar capacity to a hot water tank - energy storage.
I haven’t done the maths on the CO2 benefit of charging overnight to deliver in the day or at peak but you’re right, there will be some.
Something we might consider when we finally get PV!
Which is fine until more and more people start doing that. When your supplier announces they're getting rid of the cheap nighttime rate, where will you be then? Looking to buy a cheap gas boiler probably.
@@Chris-hy6jy Hi Chris, under no circumstances will I be moving back to a gas boiler. Absolutely not.
The reason why cheap night-time rates exist is because there is a reduction in demand overnight, this may change with EV charging, batteries etc and if it does then a flat rate would be fine.
Under the price cap tariffs published by government, and that will come into force on the 1st October - www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-bills-support/energy-bills-support-factsheet-8-september-2022 - ~34p elec and ~10p gas on the standard variable tariff. My system will pretty much break even with a gas boiler. Moving back to gas risks increasing costs for heating.
And that removes the whole purpose of moving away from gas in the 1st place, the incredible emissions that come from a gas boiler and the 65-70% drop in emissions a heat pump provides.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle that assumes that your electricity is 100% "clean" and not generated by a gas powered power station.
@@Chris-hy6jy Hi Chris - it doesn't actually, if we assumed electricity was 100% clean then the reduction in emissions would be 100%. The assumption I am making is as all carbon reporting in the UK, using the carbon factor set out by BEIS for 2022 - www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2022
The reporting methodology suggests that a unit of electricity will emit 0.193 kg of CO2, whilst a unit of natural gas will emit 0.18 kg CO2. So with an efficiency of 2.96 a heat pump like ours would emit 0.065 kg CO2 for every unit of heat, whilst a gas boiler with an efficiency of 95% would emit 0.189 kg CO2. Therefore our heat pump would be 65.6% lower emissions than an efficient gas boiler.
In the last 12 months gas power stations generated just under 40% of our power, wind, just over 20%, solar, just over 4%, so it is mis-leading to suggest that all power is generated by gas - www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-12-months/
I actually live in a part of the UK where grid emissions are lower than the average (the North East) - i.e. we have a lot of low carbon generation and a low amount of demand, but we use the national figures as the reporting convention suggests.
A very good and honest video.
On top of the extra cost of actually heating the house the capital cost of a heat pump system is also much higher than a gas boiler (before any Govt subsidy). Yes, the cost of heating would be lower for a modern well insulated house but most houses in the UK were built in the 1950s or earlier. Some houses are just not suitable for a heat pump because they cannot be sufficiently insulated.
Tom. If you can be bothered. I would like to know what the costs would look like with the much higher electricity costs after the 1 October 2022. In fact, it would be good to know what the economics would look like if the Govt had not brought in the special cap price.
Thanks for the comment Brian.
I have gone through a few of your points in other videos but happy to revisit here. Our house is 1890s built, we have retrofit double glazing and a loft full of insulation, as well as a modern extension at the rear. There will be many homes similar to ours, and with a light touch (glazing and loft) will have enough insulation to run a heat pump in a fairly efficient manner.
The total cost of our installation was about ~£11k, we were lucky to be part of a research project in the North East so that was funded, but would have been ~£6k with the boiler upgrade scheme grant.
I have done a video about the costs with the october price guarantee - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html, it will now break even with our old gas boiler, and if I can improve efficiency (looks like 10% improvement compared to last year already) then will offer savings.
Difficult to speculate on costs with no government intervention, but as long as the ratio between gas and electricity is 1:3.5 (or less) almost all heat pumps will at least beak even, if not make savings.
What do you think? Is that a good summary?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thank you for your reply Tom. I will watch your other video too.
It is interesting that the ratio between the gas:electric price ('the spark spread') is so crucial. I help people do the economics on power station projects, grid development and energy policy so it's interesting to hear from real people doing these projects at the household level. So much is spin from Govt ministers, lobbyists and project promoters that is wildly exaggerated.
If millions of homes were suddenly to install heat pumps, solar PV, batteries and electric cars, it transforms our electric and gas system. On the other hand if that doesn't happen then we need many more conventional power stations to avoid blackouts like this winter. The people that I work with plop £1 billion on the table to build a power station that will last 20 years and will burn £1 million of gas just to warm them up this winter before they can generate. The decisions you are making and millions of families like yours make a lot of difference to what we need to do at our end.
I gave the thousandth like 👍 Thanks for the video.
Love it! Amazed my video has 1000 likes!!
Thanks for engaging with it. Hope you found it useful / interesting
Thanks for an informative video. I’m at the point of deciding either a ASHP with a Mixergy tank or a thermodynamic panel for my hot water and then something to heat just my wet UFH, can’t decode which.
Thanks for commenting Gavin. I haven't come across themodynamic panels before, a quick google doesn't give me many examples of systems working in the UK. Happy to hear about a new (to me) technology though if you have any info!
Unless you mean solar thermal panels? Solar thermal on its own won't be able to give you hot water all year round, there will be dark and cloudy weeks in the winter where output will be very low, so you would need an immersion coil to get hot water tanks to temperature. If solar thermal was working alongside an air source heat pump you would benefit from free hot water 2/3rds of the year and then would have an efficient source of hot water the other third. Installing both would add to cost and can make a system a bit more complex but would be very efficient.
The mixergy tank is pretty clever in how it heats water. We just have the standard hot water tank from the manufacturer, well insulated, simple but does the job!
If you have UFH - a heat pump would be a really great addition
Tom
Have a look at SAHP in Malden Tom, their thermodynamic panel provides all your hot water requirements year round using the reverse technology of fridges! They have their own cylinders or a conversion unit to work with your existing tank.
@@gavinshaw6382 thanks Gavin, new technology to me. I guess majority of heat demand in a home would be for space heating, rather than domestic hot water, but this looks like an interesting concept!
May be I am missing something but I don't think you are including the cost of the unit and installation in your figures? Likewise the solar panels that you mentioned. These items have an estimated estimate life, so you should include a depreciation cost into your numbers to account for replacement (likewise your gas boiler comparison)
Hi Vvwalker - no for operational costs I am just comparing cost for X kWh of gas vs Y kWh of electricity to power the heat pump. At given prices.
You are right a full economic assessment of either system would have a life cycle cost included.
This might be too much detail to communicate simply on RUclips..! But I’ll try to be clearer next time.
Best
Tom
Fascinating video - keep it up! We just renovated our house and went for a gas combi. I now wish we went for a heat pump - but our house is a Victorian 3 bed semi and it leaks heat like anything.
Thanks Afnan, kind of you to message.
Sounds like we have fairly similar homes - we have been really comfortable with a heat pump, hopefully you'll be ready in the next 5-10 years!
so the last sentence answered your question then, heat pumps are only good for new builds which have a lower thermal mass
@@dantronics1682 Hi Dan - we live in a Victorian Terrace, so not very well insulated - sorry if I have mislead you in something I have said!
Liked this video good to see a honest review, was there anything else you had to install with the heat pump
Thanks Raz, I’ve had a couple of people say it is honest… makes me worry what I said!
Yes we had to install a hot water tank as we moved from a combi boiler. And we installed a buffer tank that is there to help reduce cycling and provide some heat for defrost cycles.
We also changed some (not all) radiators to slightly bigger or double panel where we had single etc.
In the future we plan to install solar PV when we do some work to our roof (that is quite old)
Hope that is a helpful response
Tom
Great video by the way. We are seriously looking into air source heat pump. What size is your heat pump sorry I may have missed that part?? I’m assuming I would need around 9kW for my 4 bed Semi.
Probably didn’t mention it in this video but have in others. We have a 5 kW Arotherm Plus.
9 kW probably sounds about right, although 5 does the job in our 3 bed Victorian terrace.
Heat Geek has a fantastic rule of thumb video on a house type and m2 basis - ruclips.net/video/-VJQLcU_YjU/видео.html&feature=share&si=EMSIkaIECMiOmarE6JChQQ
But none of that should be relied on, a heat loss assessment by a competent installer will make sure you get the right system.
A heat pump is a great step to reduce emissions drastically and looks like will be a way to reduce costs as well! Would be great to hear your story when you go down that route. Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Do you have radiators or UFH? Do you have the uniTOwer also?
@@symosys Hi Paul, we have a small area of wet UFH but 90% of our home is radiators. We have the Unistor 150 litre tank from Vaillant - www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/the-unistor-hot-water-cylinders-for-heat-pumps-21888.html
Are you got a system or looking at one?
Tom
My experience with solar is that unless you have a large array it doesn't produce enough in the winter when your heating loads are high. I'm putting in an additional 13kwp on top of my 3.5 kwp system together with a 35kwh battery. I expect I will still need to buy electricity for about 90 days a year and that's with heating by gas.
Fair enough, although I am not sure the aim is to not buy electricity…? Solar PV helps subsidise electricity use and with current rates makes powering a home (with or without including a heat pump / EV) quite cheap.
And should we be trying to get enough solar generation in the winter? Is that needed? The joy of being connected to the grid is that we could get energy from a diverse set of sources when the sun isn’t shining, and yes, when it is, local solar is fantastic at reducing costs.
My argument would be to supplement bills with a solar array, that contributes to running a heat pump in spring and autumn, supports majority of hot water in the summer, and helps where it can in the winter. But by no means reliant on the solar in the winter…
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the video. Really informative. We are currently looking into getting a ASHP. We have a 5.2khw PV system and a 5.2kw battery.
Our installers EON estimate a generation of around 4,800kwh, of which around 2,150 will be self-utilised currently and the remainder sold back to the grid.
We have gas purely for heating and hot water using around 12,800kwh last year and are in a Victorian terrace too so will likely have a similar electricity usage from the heat pump to yourself.
Do you have an estimate daily kWh usage on the heat pump during the spring/summer days? We are trying to estimate what our self-consumption will be if we invested in a heat pump. Will also have the cost saving of being able to remove the gas meter and save £104 on standing charge so it seems to be a great low carbon investment and also potentially a half decent financial investment too. Even if we utilised 1000kwh extra rather than exporting from the PV system then it’ll likely be worth investing in, especially with the 5k grant at the minute.
Thanks
Hi Martin, great to hear about your system. I do have an estimate of kWh of the heat pump at spring / summer. In march it was about 15-20 kWh per day, April around 10-12 kWh per day (but really depends on how much hot water we need, and how cool the outside was), over the summer, no heating, and just hot water. We are 2 in our house, so probably use less hot water than many households, but heat pump demand could be as low as 1-2 kWh per day.
I think you are spot on with the increased self consumption. Almost all generation over winter months will be used by the heat pump, and then programming hot water generation for a midday peak would mean you could use even more direct generation in the summer. In the 'shoulder months' March, April, October, November, where there is some sunlight, and some heating, you will see some increased benefit of the PV. I haven't modelled it in detail at our house, but will one day!
Our house has a south east facing roof, which would actually work quite nicely with a heat pump as the heat pump might work harder to get the house warm in the morning, utilising max generation, and then could tick along for the afternoon when we generate less.... we'll see. One day!
Thanks for messaging, sounds like you could have a great system soon!
Tom, in the coldest freezing weather in winter, how did you heat the home and to what room temps and if the heat pump was on, for how long?
Hi setdetnet, I guess this week is a good time to answer that question. Down to -5/6°C where I live, heating to 19° internally using the heat pump. The heat pump will be running nearly 24/7 except for when it does frost cycle, probably a few times an hour. It is supposed to run for most of the time as that means it is operating most efficiently.
Hope this answers your question?
Hello.
So you paid £5k+ for installation, not to mention thousands in RHI money, only so you could pay £21/month extra.
How is this not a complete disaster?
Hi Nhohnhoj67 - I was actually part of a fully funded pilot scheme, which was very fortunate for me. (The RHI scheme ended this scheme. That would have reimbursed almost the full cost of a heat pump for those on it)
I guess ‘complete disaster’ is relative. If we have understood that without drastic reduction in emissions in the short term, there will be global disaster with millions of lives at risk in the medium term. £21/month for us then is a price worth paying if we can help do our bit to reduce emissions. I had worked out that emissions linked to heat were a large proportion of what I was responsible for so thrilled to be able to reduce them by at least 67% by moving to a heat pump.
Hope that adds up?!
Tom
Depends on the perception of cost. Is it cost to yourself or ongoing cost to society with continual reliance on fossil fuel. However this is difficult regardless of values. Anything green seems to be more expensive, until this is addressed there will be no tipping point to reduce carbon.
Heat pumps are one solution, I think they will only ever be niche unless the costs tumble massively. More likely hydrogen in the existing infrastructure will be mass adopted.
Personally I think if you can afford it and you are carbon conscious, this video is clearly a success against against Tom’s goals.
Tim, very interesting. We have a Vaillant 12.5 split and their service has been a disaster! Hope you’ve done better. Richard.
Sorry to hear that Richard. We have Maintenance with our installer so not had to speak much to vaillant. All seems to be running ok for the 1st 14 months!
@Tom Bray
Hello Tom.
Does your cylinder have an immersion heater? If yes, is it used for pasteurizing, heat exchanger defrosting, and/or augmenting the heat pump?
If yes to any of the above, how have you accounted for this cost?
Thanks.
John.
Hi John - yes it has an immersion, that I don’t think is used in a normal week, ie the heat pump does most / all of the work. Although If the immersion was being used it is also measured through the heat and electricity meters installed in the system so it is included in my calculations.
Generating hot water is much lower efficiency than the heat pump providing heat to the radiators. Which pulls the overall efficiency down a bit.
Hope all that helps / makes sense?!
Tom
I'm researching airesource instead of oil fired heating so your post is interesting and I wonder how costs compare for oil. Heating oil is very expensive at the moment. I agree that moving to low carbon is a necessity
Hi Simon, thanks for the message, what are your latest costs for heating oil? If you can convert them to p per kWh then you could compare with electricity.
If we assumed oil boiler was 90% efficient and a heat pump was 300% efficient, if electricity was less than 3.3x more expensive it would be cheaper to run a heat pump than oil.
And it is very likely to reduce emissions!
Hey Tom, great video! Your old boiler wouldn't run at 94% effciency especially that model. The reality in the heating industry is us gas engineers chuck in the A rated gas boilers and cheer claiming happy days it's A rated! But they are rarely setup properly from day one meaning they don't run at their maximum efffciency. We call them condensing boilers but they rarely actually condense because they're setup onto heating systems incorrectly and when they don't condense you might as well be running a C rated boiler.
Encouraging to hear it hasn't cost you much more to run your system, will be intrigued to see how you get on once you have panels fitted.
You’re spot on Nathan. I was probably assuming high so that gas fans wouldn’t call me out for understating gas efficiency.
It probably means we have used more heat in the last 12 months. Which is one of the reasons why we were more comfortable with a heat pump.
We did have quite low flow temps on our old gas boiler as I got the condensing issue back then.
On cost, I reckon from new price guarantee today, our heat pump will break even with a gas boiler. And if I can get efficiency a bit higher, we’ll be saving …. Not enough to payback the cost of a heat pump installation but definitely meaningful!
Tried to outline that here ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ
Thanks for commenting!
So true I fit 100’s of boilers and the amount of customers who crank the temperature on the boiler up to max or ‘e’ when I go back is unreal. I set the return temp for maximum condensing and they mess it up. No explanation helps most of them.
Hopefully more people will be looking for efficiency over speed of response during this energy crisis…
@@ebebop what settings do you recommend on a condensing boiler?
@@kevindarkstar try setting both hot water and heating to around 50-55c or lower if the system is on all day
Our house is only 20 years old, but not well insulated . Our radiators us 10mm micro pipe, and are probably too small for use with a heat pump. All in all, I doubt if a heat pump would ever be on the cards - even if we could afford it on a pension , which we definitely can't! Disappointing.... PS Most of the air leaks would have been trivial jobs at the time of building - but very hard and expensive to sort out after the fact. I suspect many others are in the same position.
It is frustrating that building regs allowed for poor insulation in the 21st century. And a shame that your heating system has 10mm pipes, I know Heat Geek has done some videos on microbore that are probably targetted at installers but you may find them interesting - ruclips.net/video/dEDitJnRgz4/видео.html
I hope there will be better funding to help with the transition in the future!
How many radiators is the 5kW supplying and what size cylinder in litres?
Hi Paul, 8 radiators around the house and a small area of underfloor heating in an extension. We have 150 litre storage.
Tom
Hi Tom
When calculating costs did you include the cost of the heat pump system?
Hi Mikeorjoe - no these costs are just comparing operating costs and not installation costs for a new gas boiler or new heat pump. Ie how many kWh of gas or electricity would we use to stay warm each year and what cost would that have…
Hope that makes sense?
Tom
I don't heat my house June thru' Sept so SCOPs are misleading IMHO. What are the COPs for Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb when the temps sometimes get down to -3C?
Close to 2 I'd have thought, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Hi David, fair point but the adverse is actually true. Over the summer months the heat pump is only doing hot water with a weekly pasteurising cycle of 60+ °C, so our COPs over the summer were around 2.5, whereas mid season, where we were heating but the external temperature was higher (February to May) average was 3.15, the coldest months, full heating, cold outside (Dec - Jan) the COP averaged 2.86. I actually did a video about winter performance - ruclips.net/video/FYVc-7HLb88/видео.html.
My worst weekly COP over the last year was in July at 2.32, the lowest weekly COP during winter was 2.72.
You are right that temperatures can go very low, and a heat pump efficiency may not be as good at that level but it is rare that temperature stays at -3 all day.
And one point on SCOPs - a quoted SCOP on a manufacturer's data sheet is based on a standard methodology and will perform differently in different locations. What I have shared is an average COP based on the electricity I have used and the heat produced. The COP I have seen is much lower than the SCOP on the Vaillant data sheet!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks Tom, I'll take a look.
Not great then. It'll be interesting to see how it bears up in an artic snap for a month.
Hi Marius - which part wasn’t great? We’ve been really pleased with how it has kept us comfortable all winter over the last 12 months.
I did a couple of shorts of heat pump working at negative temperatures.
ruclips.net/user/shortspiw9FdHswjY?feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ
ruclips.net/user/shortsrF5-LfZMcB0?feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ
Heat pumps are able to provide heat down to -20 as long as refrigerant inside the unit still can evaporate (propane down to -20 on our heat pump) then they can extract heat from the air and move it inside… doesn’t get THAT cold in County Durham
Tom
You must include the cost of the investment in the HP , called amortisation, and see after 10 years and calculate !
HI Nick, fair point, I am an engineer rather than an accountant!
We were part of a research project so the installation was fully funded, but would have cost a total of £11k if we were paying out right. Minus the £5000 grant that would be part of boiler upgrade scheme this would be a £6,000 investment.
You may have to give me a lesson on Amortisation, but if we paid off a £6000 investment over 10 years, at an interest rate of 3.5%, this would add about £1100 in interest payments over the 10 year period, or an additional £9.20 per month. Does that stack up to you?
Greetings Tom,
Thank you for your response to my post.
We've had a solar array and battery for just over three years. We've only had a few bills since then. We thought that a heat pump would be a good next step. When the sun reappears the pump may prove to be worthwhile. I remain to be convinced. Yes today has been better on consumption because it's been around 11c. Perhaps heat pumps like warmer weather?
We are having to readjust to a new way of thinking. For more than thirty years we have been able to crank up our oil boiler and be adequately warm in very short order. Perhaps we will adjust. Time will tell.
I note that you have an electric car. I cannot justify the expense of an electric car for the few miles driven today. My ageing ICE car will have to last a while longer.
Regards,
Peter.
Hi Peter, thanks for coming back to me, I would say solar PV powering a battery and a heat pump will mean very low villa in spring, summer and winter. And mitigate the highest costs in winter.
Heat pumps definitely prefer warm weather, and if set up with weather compensation will be more efficient and cheaper every degree higher, but they can perform down to -20°C.
Yes it is a different way of thinking to an oil boiler but much more efficient, and I suspect much cheaper, especially with your PV.
I don’t have an EV yet, for similar reasons to you. But I do much of my travel locally on my bike. I have done a couple of videos about hiring or borrowing EVs though, I think they are fantastic..! Much better performance than fossil cars and a full ‘tank’ / battery each morning when you wake up!
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Morning Tom, pump working quite hard today! Not sure what you mean by "villa in spring" predictive text typo?
When our fitters can sort acceptable temperatures in all rooms I may be a little happier. The system is working but not what we expected.
I'll update in due course.
Regards,
Peter.
Yes villa was an autocorrect from bills!
Hope it can settle down at some point. Best wishes for Christmas. Tom
Really really well done theres still gonna be 8 million tonnes of coal burnt every year im currently just sat infront of my free wood fed log burner there is no way i will be fitting a heat pump but again well done ......
Hi David Foster, thanks for engaging with the video.
We burn much less coal in the UK than we used to. Our electricity comes from a range of sources, almost a quarter from wind power - www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-12-months/. So, with the efficiency of a heat pump, it becomes very low emissions.
Well done for finding free wood, does that heat your whole house? Does it give you hot water too? Log burners are great and make a really cosy room, but they do risk contributing to poor air quality nearby.
Why wouldn't you want to install a heat pump?
Thanks
Tom
Whatever we do it is totally irrelevant if this so called global warming is true which it definitely isnt! I have a gas boiler which heats my water perfectly fine Why would i change a heating system that is perfectly fine if everything goes electric we are goin to have tripple the amount of pilons update all the cables in the ground and above the ground and dread to think how much more gas we are goin to need to power the power stations when theres no wind or sunlight its just pathetic!
Best pumps aren’t very efficient when temp below 40dagress. Used as supplemental heat or again to use above 40. Solar is best option as an addition like u said.
Hi Robert,
Do you mean degrees Fahrenheit? Although air source heat pumps are less efficient at colder external temperatures they are still above 250% efficient. My data says over the last year they are about 315%.
Solar PV would supplement a heat pump by providing some of the power to the unit, rather than a separate source of heat.
Thanks
Tom
if you have this magically insulated home that keeps heat doesn't this also mean the house will stay heated with gas.
I dunno this video just tells more more then better way to go is a insulated home with gas heating and solar panels for electric and sell excess to the grid to then pay for the gas
Hi review assistant - not 100% sure what you mean? We live in a Victorian terrace. That isn’t that well insulated… and are living very well with a heat pump
Since I recorded this video energy prices have changed. At the latest rates we would now break even with a heat pump vs a gas boiler. Adding solar panels would help pay for heat pump demand, exporting energy to the grid tends to be much less valuable than using it locally so I am not your plan stacks up. You can’t generate your own gas, so you’ll be reliant on fossil fuel companies, or people like Putin.
When we electrify everything we start to be able to be self reliant.
Hope that makes sense
Tom
What’s the pay back in years for 15 k heat pump install minimum and 6 k for solar panels ?
Hi Darrell - good question.
If you needed as much heat as me then you are likely to use 4000kWh of electricity each year with a heat pump. If you paid £6k for solar panels you might get a system of around 3.5 kW, which would generated around 3000 kWh of electricity each year. Let’s assume you use half of that at home, and your tariff is 34p per kWh, that would save you £510 per year. You could then sell the rest for at least 5p per kWh which would give you another £75.
A heat pump will likely save you money if you are on the price guarantee tariff from 1st October. How much depends on efficiency. Let’s assume it doesn’t save much but just breaks even.
£15k + £6k = £21k / £585 per year = 35 years.
So… a long time. You would get £5k off through the boiler upgrade scheme, so more like £16k, so 27 years… and if commissioned well, the heat pump would help save too… let’s say £200 a year, £785 in total, or just over 20 years payback … starting to get there
But would likely reduce your house’s emissions by 75% +
What is that worth?
That's a great analysis. How many hours a day to you have it running?
Hi neuroniuans - it’s an interesting question, we are calling for heat for most of the day, and actually a heat pump running at a low output for long periods of time is the most efficient way to run it.
So short answer, in winter, probably 12+ hours…?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thank you for getting back to me 😊 I'm considering a rental that heas an air pump as a heating source and just wondering what could be the costs approximately. So I'm guessing yur calculations are based on 12+ hours use on low output for the entire few bedrooms property.
@@neuroniuans heya - yes it runs most of the day because of weather compensation means it is just working hard enough and no more.
In terms of costs etc… I live in a 3 bed house in north east England, I did use about 12000 kWh of gas to heat the house each year. Now use around 4000 kWh electricity to provide the same heat. You could do a simple calculation based on those figures and your gas and electricity rates and it might give you an idea of costs …
Hope that’s helpful
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Yes, that's very helpful, thank you. Based on your calculations I'm not very worried as it's just a small flat, so hoping the cost is gonna be lower. I'm after rather more southern part and probably a bit warmer that where you are.
I'm surprised that your monthly bills are still higher compared with gas. I currently pay about 10p/kwh for gas and just over 30p/kwh for electric. I would have thought that the much quoted 300% efficiency would at least have balanced this cost out (even if that still left you paying the large initial install costs for the heat pump and upgraded rads etc). Quite disappointing but thanks for sharing your results.
Hi Tyrone, you are spot on. The costs I was using were for the previous 12 months (july 21 - july 22), as such the rates were 29.12p per kWh for electricity and 7.22p per kWh for gas.
The new price guarantee rates are 10p gas and 34p electricity, which means I now think my system will break even, if not give savings over the next 12 months. My efficiency since july 22 to today has been 330% which would give a considerable saving vs a 90% efficient gas boiler. I think around 7%, which would be about £90-£100 saving over the year. Not paying for the capital cost outlay but better than a kick in the teeth!
I did an update video here with new costs - ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html
Hope that makes sense
As some have suggested why not a Battery staorage solution and Octopus Go tariff. You appear to have an EV which makes you elegable for the "Go" tariff. Charge the EV and the battery pack in the 4 hour overnight rate i.e. 7.5p/kW. Run you ASHP on the "pack" during the day. This is what I have done. PV is a good addition but not so usefull when you need heat more during the winter. The battery pack does, obviously, not rely on the condition of your roof.
Hi pepermint! I don’t actually have an EV yet, I have a bike! And an increasingly old petrol car that will be replaced one day. I’ve borrowed and hired EVs in the past though.
We’re not on octopus go, but maybe there is a case for a battery investment if we were. I’d be concerned about a big battery outlay based on day / night tariffs staying so generous but I need to have a think in more detail!
I’m not 100% convinced in the low carbon credentials of a battery on its own. Yes helping reducing day time peaks is good, but conscious of materials and energy gone into battery manufacture.
I should look into this one day!
So really Don’t bother the co2 reduction is tiny in the grand scheme of things.
Hi Paul - you’ll have to talk me through that one. Emissions linked to heat are nearly 50% of total emissions in my county, reducing these by 65-70% today and progressively more in the long term is a huge benefit.
What’s the other plan for reducing heating emissions?
Yes individual actions have small impacts but if millions of gas boilers were removed by individuals, 1 by 1, we’d have a massive impact. What other choice do we have?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle basically uk achieves its low co2 via off loading it elsewhere. It’s a farce heat pumps are efficient yet gas powered power stations are as bad as 50% efficient same gos for electric cars low co2 yet the actual co2 they cost is not great.
We’ve got 50 od years of gas and oil minimum left hopefully by then real green power technology such as hydrogen will be worth while. ( we should of built more nuclear plants in the meantime) controversial!
I fit gas boilers for a living and some air source heat pumps. I’m not convinced they are the long term solution.
The uk whole energy is a joke, multiple energy suppliers supplying same product.
Watch skill builders channel he’s far more clued up and explains it well
Also heat geek has opposite options mostly but highly knowledgeable.
Most people want cheaper energy prices before going green, going green needs to be tackled at the source of the energy not necessarily individual homes.
Bit of a waffle and probably not making much sense I’ve not had much sleep.
Hi Paul - not sure what you’ve said is 100% accurate.
Uk drop in emissions has come from a range of factors. Yes we have less manufacturing in the UK than the 70s/80s which means emissions are lower. But also we have moved away from coal power in a big way and adopted wind and gas power stations, this has reduced emissions of electricity by ~60% since 2008.
Modern combined cycle gas turbines are likely to be more efficient that 50% but we do need to move away from gas as a fuel.
Not sure what you mean by EVs costing a lot of CO2. It definitely uses a lot of energy to manufacture any new car, but per mile an EV will be 70% lower emissions than an equivalent fossil vehicles.
We may have 50 years of fossil reserves but we don’t have that much budget in CO2 emissions. We need to halve by 2030 and be net zero well before 2050. If we keep digging up oil, coal and gas we will have big problems.
Hydrogen will have a big role to play in a low carbon economy but won’t be the solution for a lot of our emissions (heat and transport for example). It will be too expensive and too valuable.
Why do you think heat pumps are not a long term solution? They use about a third of the energy of a gas boiler, and can use low cost renewable energy to power them. I think they are a great solution to decarbonise heat.
There are a lot of issues with the Uk energy market. I agree.
Skill builder is a great channel to help with DIY, I think Roger Bisby is a bit misled when it comes to his views on heat pumps. He doesn’t seem to understand the tech or reasons behind using them.
I think the guys behind Heat Geek are really on the ball.
A heat pump, when commissioned well can really reduce costs, and as we reduce the amount of natural gas in our electricity system, costs for power could be very low, and therefore heat pumps would be very cheap to run.
If we started to count the true cost of gas ie to include impact of emissions, decommissioning costs, etc. We would have something better to compare against.
Hope you’re able to get some more sleep soon mate. I’ve had times when my brain is working overdrive at night, it’s not fun
Wait. Are you saying this statement has cost you more money to heat the house than conventional gas??
Hi Shawn - yep! Over that 12 month period in our house i worked out it cost us more than a year with a gas boiler.
The way gas and electricity rates have changed means now we would break even - I’ve done an update video here ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&feature=share&si=ELPmzJkDCLju2KnD5oyZMQ
So far this year the efficiency of the unit is higher than last year so it is likely it would be cheaper to run
Context is we are in a Victorian terrace, many newer homes will be much cheaper to run with a heat pump.
Hope all that makes sense?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle yes it does, thanks. So I can save the planet but cripple the savings. Not for me then.
Perhaps powered from solar this could be financially viable, but then I’m looking at many 1000s to get going.
We’re in a 30s single brick house
That’s fair enough - there needs to be more support for homes to reduce emissions, or make it more financially attractive to move away from gas. Our system is now saving compared to gas but it’s not lucrative.
I would question the logic (in your words) of putting savings before ‘saving the planet’ - where are we going to spend money if we risk climate breakdown?
Hopefully in the next few years if your boiler needs replacing you might be ready to go heat pump?
Tom
Wow great savings.But initial cost and installation needs consideration.Gas at 10.3p per unit in UK is so cheap .Its 13.42 c or 11.90 p in Ireland.
Gas at that rate is 3 times what we’re used to!
Yes installation costs need considering, I’ve talked about that in previous videos. Cost of our system was £11k, so minus the £5k grant would have been £6k.
Since this video I did an update on latest costs, and with efficiency improving on last year I reckon we’re saving quite a bit. ruclips.net/video/ieVDsS_YOgU/видео.html&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
If you have solar panels and battery storage then the cheapest way must be ceramic storage heaters. Installation for cheaper then heat pumps and no moving parts. That would be the way I would go.
Hi Dave, that's a helpful point, although storage heaters would use 3x the energy as a heat pump (at least), the heat pump efficiency helps keep running costs down. But you are right, solar coupled with an electric system has the potential to provide very low cost heating
Thanks
Tom
Good numbers but I'd have liked to hear more about how well it heats the house or doesn't etc
Hi Christopher, thanks for the comment, I have done a bunch of videos about our heat pump in this playlist - ruclips.net/p/PLlIKCaEd5CsTRbddqHYMPZokka2O0Dyqc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
Don’t want to repeat stuff in every video! But we have been pretty happy with the comfort our heat pump gives. A nice consistent heat, rather than peaks and troughs that our old boiler used to have. And it’s able to heat to a comfortable temperature even this winter where it has often been below 0.
We have cooler spaces in the house (it’s a Victorian terrace, there are some bits that could be improved further!) but the spaces we spend most time in are nice and warm.
Hope that’s helpful
Thanks
Tom
@Tom Bray thankyou, very. We have an old 1920s style house so you're very similar to us. I also saw some recent and significant price drops might be on the horizon so I am quite tempted. Solar panels seem a big plus as well so I'd be tempted to do both if I can get the money together
Hi Christopher, definitely something to look into in my detail.
There is a nice synergy between a heat pump and solar panels, particularly during spring and autumn when we still generate some electricity and still need some heat.
All the best with your project!
What was the design flow temp of your system? Just curious to know if your rads were upgraded or not.
Design temp was 45 degrees at -2. Some of our radiators were upgraded and 2 added but not all upgraded.
I think the house needs a bit more than that so did run at a slightly higher heat curve.
In hindsight, a couple of rooms I might have asked for slightly bigger rads and in reality, bigger the better for efficiency.
at 22 below 0 do you still have heat
Hi Gary, the heat pump works by evaporating a fluid (in my case Propane) using heat in the air by the heat pump. Propane 'boils' at -42, so technically our heat pump could work down to -42°C. The manufacturer's data sheet suggests it can work to -20°C.
At that temperature it can still provide heat, it just gets less efficient as uses more electricity to add heat.
Fortunately it has never been -22°C where I live, I realise there are parts of the UK that have got that low at times, and this may have an adverse effect on a heat pump (it would on a gas boiler too) and fortunately doesn't stay that cold the whole time.
Hope that answers your question!
Very interesting thank you for sharing your experience. Are you using weather compensation on your heat pump? if not optimising that might improve your COP. My son has an HP and made significant gains from that
Getting a solar PV and a battery sounds like great idea, we have both but no HP yet. Solar also gives you a measure of independence from power companies. We have bought into Ripple too and are looking forward to that starting
Hi terry - thanks for commenting, yes using weather compensation. Although I tinkered with it a lot last year trying to get the best out of it. Will keep the WC curve as low as possible this year!
Yes solar will really help keep costs down, I love the simplicity of it all when we generate on a roof, use that energy to power a home including heating and hot water, and even power transport… makes sense! Looking forward to seeing our neighbours installation who are getting all 3 very soon!
Hi tom. Great video. We just had a vaillant ashp installed. How did you read your COP? The menu has yield but not sure if this includes the input electricity or just the free bit from the air? And there is also the ' working figure' which Is a number a bit like COP but finding a definitive answer is difficult. I appreciate if you can shed light that would be great. Thanks
We’ve actually got a heat meter and electricity meter connected to the system that measures what it produces and what it consumes. We were part of a research project so was installed day 1.
I don’t really trust the figures within the controller / i haven’t looked into it in detail.
I think you’re right the environmental yield must be the ‘free’ heat from ambient air, and added to the power consumption figures and that is within 10% of what our heat meter has measured.
The power consumption is a bit low as I suspect the pump energy isn’t counted. But could probably give a good estimate of how the system is performing.
I’ve seen some discussion about the manufacture’s own energy measurements and not matching to measured energy via meters etc but it will be more or less there…
Sorry I can’t give an accurate answer!
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle thanks that is really helpful. We don't have heat meter so it will be a bit of a guess for us. The manual is very unclear on how the figures are generated or what they really measure. I will probably have a guess in a years time as I know what our gas usage was and can infer our heat input.
@@joewentworth7856 That makes sense, the data is helpful, if only to try and improve each year. I wonder if heat and dedicated electricity meters should be standard on installations (they were for RHI grants) or to check a system is performing as planned.
But comparing to previous years, pre-heat pump, could give a good estimate
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle have you compared the 'working figure' that the vaillant control panel gives out compares to the cop you get from your independant meters? It would be great for those without better Metering to know if the vaillant figures are meaningful. Great chanel enjoying the content. Thanks
I recommend getting a battery with your solar power. You won't be using your heat pump much in the summer, and a battery can greatly reduce your energy demands for a large portion of the year when it's warm. I'm also on Ripple, it seems like a great idea.
Hi Rhys, I am going to do a video about batteries as I am not sure it is as simple as that. I'll try to go into the detail of time of use tariff, solar pv summer charging etc... it may be a good option but I wonder whether the bigger battery sat on your drive in the future could be all the storage we need...?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle I fully agree that the EV-Grid future is to come, and it would seem a waste to double up. If I've got my facts right, you can get a pv+battery VAT free, but you can't get a VAT free battery upgrade. So if you're thinking of a house battery, try to get it at the same time as the PV system.
I think the idea of putting less carbon in the atmosphere is a great mindset to have. Surely it should be cheaper to run as that is how we gauge our lives in the current system. It's great being all low carbon but if I'm out of pocket especially with this ever increasing energy and cost of living crisis I have to choose the most affordable option. I just had a heatpump system installed, replacing older storage heaters and an immersion , I've found that my bills are pretty much the same were before, well, I say the same on top of the price hike they are completely financially unsustainable. The only real plus, is my flat is a lot warmer.
Hi Nick, ultimately heat pumps should be cheaper to run as the more renewables are deployed and we can move away from a volatile gas prices for heat and for electricity generation.
I would be suprised if your bills were the same as a heat pump will be much more efficient than storage heaters, unless you were on a time of use tariff that meant you could charge at a cheaper rate.
Pleased your are warmer! And emissions will be around 2/3rds lower than what they were
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle
But don’t forget you have to recoup all the costs of the installation before you can claim any price parity or saving for that matter. In all these videos, that seems to be ignored.
It would seem that the main point of your video is the reduction in CO2. Shame your saving is offset by my increase as I got rid of my heat pump and put a gas boiler back in.
Hi Thales of Miletus - absolutely the main point! My channel is called low carbon lifestyle, my jobs is about reducing emissions and my passion is trying to help others respond to the climate emergency!
How come you removed a heat pump? That’s a real shame and will lock in your emissions for the life of the boiler.
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Whats this climate emergency you keep referring to ? Do you really believe everything on the telly ?
@@supersurfer1 Hi Fair Human - no I don't believe everything on the 'telly'.
Since the industrial revolution we have increased the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere by over 50%. This has led to average temperatures around the world rising by more than 1°C. This has led to weather patterns changing and an increased frequency of extreme weather events.
All this is recorded evidence. Not someone on TV making something up.
The future looks like we are going to end up with warming of over 2°C. This would mean a planet completed different to today. With risk of crop failure, drought, extreme weather etc leading to mass displacement of vulnerable people from their homes, extinction of many different species and shortage of food for all of us.
This is pretty much locked in within my lifetime (hoping to get to my 80s) if we don't do something about it now.
I am spending my time working to reduce emissions as quickly as possible. Because I think your safety, my safety and the rest of the planet's, is worthwhile.
Thanks for asking!
Just a thought, you're taking advantage of cheaper rates overnight but by doing so are you running at a lower COP due to lower ambian temp?
It’s a good point. It would be interesting to plot the nighttime temperature difference and work out corresponding COP to see whether night hot water generation is actually more expensive….
You’re right though. Cooler External ambient = lower COP. So may be worth looking at!
Hi Tom, just found you this evening. Great video and very informative. We have moved into a brand new build in May which is fitted with a heat pump and under floor heating, A rated etc... My question for you is on the thermostat settings. I have heard many different opinions, set at 20 and leave it alone or set for higher at different times of the day. What do you do? I know we have differently insulated houses, but what do you think is best? Thank you.
Hi Mark thanks for commenting and the question. I think the key is the drop on your ‘set back’ temperature. Ie what temperature do you leave heating on overnight? If this is too low the system will be working hard to raise temperature in the mornings. Last winter I think we settled on 19/19.5 during the day and 17 overnight. But I guess that’s all down to preference on comfort levels etc. But keeping the set back within 2-3 degrees of the day time temperature is key.
I imagine your system will be quite efficient and cheap to run in a well insulated new property.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle thanks a mil Tom, this is what I have been thinking of doing. I just can't see heating 7 inches of concrete every morning up from too low a temperature would be efficient.
@@markmurphy7301 How come you would be heating 7 inches of concrete - do you have underfloor heating below concrete? Surely the heat would go to the space rather than into concrete? And then concrete would hold heat so wouldn't need heating up?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle yep, underfloor heating. I'm very new to the technology but remember the engineer telling me to not let the setback temp get too low as the system will work hard heating the slab before I get heat gains inside the house. I keep hearing different people saying different things. A long winter of experiments I think.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle typical underfloor heating design has 100-250mm of insulation underneath the concrete slab containing the underfloor heating pipework.
We are in the process of digging out all out Victorian era floors to install 250mm of pumped insulation, underfloor heating pipework and then 100mm of concrete on top. That's the make up for a polished concrete floor, if you are just screening the floor and plan to have tiles or another UFH suitable floor covering then that screed can be around 50mm.
So it is unlikely that you would be hearing 7 inches of concrete but if you were then I doubt it would be good to have a set back of more than a degree. If you have solar I'd have a set back so that the sun can bring you back up to temp in the morning but if you are just on the grid with a thermal mass that size I would set to one temperature and just let it keep that topped up with a lower flow temperature, that would give you the highest COP.
Hi, your heating system is not fossil free until you can guarantee the electricity your using to power your heat pump is fully renewable or until your generating it yourself from a solar PV system.
Hi Thomas, you are right, I definitely don’t claim that our heat pump is zero emissions but a few points to make in reply.
We don’t burn anything locally but use power from our electricity supply that comes from a number of sources. If we assume average emissions for 21/22 as reported by BEIS then our emissions were about 65% lower than our old gas boiler.
But, we could assume our electricity supply was zero emissions as comes from a company that sells 100% renewable electricity. I don’t assume that as I know our grid in the UK is a mix.
I could assume that our electricity comes directly from the generators around where I live (this would be the reality of the physics of electricity system). Locally, our electricity grid is mainly powered from the Hartlepool electricity grid, offshore wind and solar generators. The emissions of electricity in the north east tends to be very low.
Finally we could assume that adding a demand to the electricity grid which increases the marginal generator demand, which tends to be coal or gas, so emissions could be based on power from gas power stations. As long as the emissions from the marginal generator are less than 600g CO2 per kWh (which is likely for gas power stations) then our heat pump will be lower emissions than our old gas boiler.
The more low carbon generators on the grid and eventually when we get solar PV, the heat pump would be even lower emissions
So ultimately, I agree with you!
Thanks for commenting.
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Good reply. You will really be heading towards fossil free when you install your Solar PV system. I agree with you though that electricity is only getting cleaner whilst fossil (oil/gas) never will. I enjoy your channel 👍🏼
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Good honest video. Applaud for your efforts and honesty and contribution to CO2 reduction. However.... many UK houses (especially single walled) are not naturally suitable for this approach without major additional expense such as external wall /floor insulation and some refit internally to make that difference. Do investigate an "In roof" solar system that just replaces your roof tiles completely. It's cheaper than re-tiling because 0 VAT and use very few concrete/ clay tiles which use up a lot of energy in their production.
As an engineering consultant working in the middle east petrochemical industry, if you saw the huge investments that are now building new mega facilities to extract more hydrocarbons than ever before in the past, you would sadly realise apart for your own conscience and additional personal financial cost this whole push to reduce CO2 footprint on a personal level raises many questions but I respect your efforts on a personal basis and your passion towards it.
If, in the UK we all just properly insulated under our floors, walls, windows and installed high efficiency H2 ready gas boilers the progressive effect would be HUGE and not so expensive to the individual either and further CO2 reductions when 20% H2 is added to the existing gas network. I did all this years ago and Jan/Feb 2022 was very cold in Yorkshire requiring all day heating. Our gas usage was 1800/ 2000kWh for heating / cooking/ 4 persons showering for those two coldest months equating to 70/ 80 pounds/month for those cold months and down to 400kWhr by May 2022. Not bad for a 3 bed 1965 brick house.. The end solution in another 50yrs+ will be to knock down old houses and rebuild them to new standards where technology and modular building materials will ensure a greater efficiency as todays younger generation won't even go near an old building.
Thanks so much for commenting, lots in there, i'll try to respond to each point!
I wonder how many homes in the UK are single walled? There are a majority of homes in the UK that would be suitable for a heat pump, they just need sizing correctly with the correct emitters - this is a good study that makes that point - es.catapult.org.uk/case-study/electrification-of-heat-case-studies-on-heat-pump-experiences/
I definitely will be looking at integrated solar panels - I think they look very cool as well as offering some saving on tiling.
When we look at the global scale, it is heartbreaking to see what we are doing, I do think though that as part of a globalised market individual decisions that can influence community decisions, regional processes and ultimately national and international markets are an essential step to a low carbon economy. If I use less gas or less oil, then the market for investing in more oil and gas reduces ever so slightly, if you do too, then even better! But I definitely understand we cannot do it as individuals, I work full time trying to decarbonise my county, and though these youtube videos try to provoke thought in the youtube community about what steps they could take. I am trying to multiply my impact through documenting my journey.
Hydrogen - I am actually working on a video about hydrogen at the moment. I disagree with your conclusion for a number of reasons! I think you mentioned you are an engineer, I am too, a chartered engineer with the imeche - so let's get into the engineering of hydrogen. 1st of all a 20% blend - due to the calorific value of hydrogen compared to natural gas, a 20% blend of hydrogen will increase costs by 14% i.e. you will need to burn 14% more volume to get the same heat out. If the H2 is zero carbon, then that would reduce emissions linked to your heating by 7%... is that worthwhile?
Then with a hydrogen ready boiler you would be waiting for a 100% supply of hydrogen from the gas mains, we have to ask where the hydrogen comes from. Currently the majority of the hydrogen we use in the UK (and we use a lot already) is derived from processing natural gas, this releases CO2 in the process. There are plans to capture the CO2, but, as you will know, in the petrochemical industry, there are occasionally leaks, so leaks of the natural gas used as the source of hydrogen, leaks of the captured CO2 and leaks of the hydrogen itself will all contribute to emissions.
We could make hydrogen through electrolysis, using low carbon electricity - great, well to replace the demand of the natural gas we use today with hydrogen that we might burn in a boiler we would need an electricity system multiple times the size of today, a huge amount of wind and solar, nuclear, hydro power, tidal power etc etc etc to generate enough hydrogen to meet the heat demand of all our homes (I will go into the detail in terms of TWh in my video to come!). There is a large inefficiency of using electricity to generate hydrogen in electrolysis, transport the hydrogen in the gas system to burn in a boiler. For every kWh of low carbon electricity we generate, we may get 0.5 kWh of heat.
The alternative would be to use that energy to power heat pumps, which have an efficiency of 250-350%. If we assume the lower end, 250%, every kWh of electricity we use in a heat pump would output 2.5 kWh of heat, 5x more efficient that green hydrogen from electrolysis burnt in a H2 boiler.
If we need to move to a low carbon economy with low carbon heating systems as soon as possible, I agree, we need to insulate 20million homes in the UK (this may be disruptive, but so will climate chaos), and then for the remaining heat demand, we should meet that with heat pumps. If we are agreed that decarbonisation is our only option, and I suggest it is, then H2 boilers are an inefficient use of energy and a supply of clean hydrogen will come too late to have the impact we need.
I need to record my video to add to the debate!
We may knock down many of the homes we currently live in, but due to the value the housing market places on homes, I suspect many of us will not want to knock down and start again - property is our retirement, insurance, life savings etc etc. Knocking it down will be hard for many!
Thanks again for commenting, I really appreciate people taking the time to engage so thoroughly.
Tom
Good to see some information. I've invested in the Kirk Hill wind turbine (its about 20miles from my house also) and installed a PV+Battery 5kwp+10kwh but sadly in the end decided to fit a new viessmann boiler with weather compensation this week although Ive moved it to the garage with the idea that in 10years+ Id fit a heat pump+cylinder. While the extra £20~ a month isn't too much of a problem the outlay of £10K+ is the concern. My house needs insulation upgrades though that I hope to make to prepare it for a heat pump though and if nothing else save gas in the meantime. One add-on I might get in the short term is an air-to-air heat pump for our open plan kitchen to cool and heat as it can be installed in isolation of my main heating system.
Sounds like you are really on top of improving your house, and with the PV, when you are able to move to a heat pump, it would be cheaper to run than your boiler.
I think an air to air heat pump can be a quick and cheaper way to low carbon heat, and if you can use it when the sun is shining, will cost very little to run.
Good to hear the boiler is set up with weather compensation. How does the flow temperature vary with external temp? How low will the boiler run?
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle not had the heating on yet to fully see it all working together. Nest should regulate this though. I can see for the hot water its been modulating upto 60% for showers.
I hope they are LED downlights Tim 😝👍
Of course! Not even sure I could buy a none LED if I tried!
Less energy yes, more cost yes. Well done
Hi Dr Darren, I have actually done an update video since last year and now we have less energy, less cost and much lower emissions... win win win...! ruclips.net/video/94jy8aLqLms/видео.html
solar panels max them out and a decent expanable battery system something like pylontech batteries 5kw versions can be had in the uk for £1600 with a 10 year gurantee, check out midsomer wholesale for there products, with the solar fill your roof you will not regret doing it
Absolutely - when we have electrified heat (or a car) it makes so much sense to have as much PV as possible. Our neighbours are installing a heat pump soon, alongside 10 kW of solar panels, and (I think) a Tesla battery. I havent heard of Pylontech but I will have a look. Thanks for commenting!
The real answer here is never over complicate your heating and hot water systems. The overall costs will bite you when things start to go wrong and more likely become obsolete. Great for the first five years but downhill from then on !
Absolutely. That’s what I love about heat pumps. Really simple technology that reduces emissions overnight and can reduce costs in the long term. Gas boilers are obsolete in a climate emergency.
Thanks for the vid but there's a little too much technical info for the average person, which includes me. 90% of people do not know what a kilowatt hour is, let alone a kilowatt, or even a watt. Having said that, I'm in a similarly sized terraced house with loft insulation and an intact roof, but one which is in need of replacing due to age. My heat pump was installed in June and while it's barely needed to be on, from what I can see it's around a penny a minute to heat the house. It does take a good 20 minutes for all radiators to heat up and they don't bounce off the walls in the same way that a gas boiler provides heat, but they are warm to very warm. It is still early days but I'm not unhappy with it and I agree it's for the best to get us off our gas reliance and sooner rather than later.
Hi C Smith! Sorry, I am a mechanical engineer so talk of power and energy etc is part of my every day. A kilowatt is a unit of power, so a home will need a certain number of kilowatts on a cold day to make it warm, ours is just over 5 kW. kilowatt hours are the unit of energy, if you used 1 kW for 10 hours, that would be 10 kilowatt hours. We tend to meter our energy use in kWh, both gas and electricity. If I used 12000 kWh of natural gas in the year before we had a heat pump, I would use roughly 3x less energy to deliver the same heat with a heat pump because the efficiency is 3x greater.
We had our heat pump installed about a year before you. Heat pumps, if working efficiently, will be a similar cost to run as a gas boiler. Electricity is much more expensive than gas so it can appear that bills might go up, but we use so much more natural gas with a gas boiler than we do electricity with a heat pump.
I know what you mean about radiators not being as hot as previously, and the key is whether you feel comfortable, gas boilers tend to heat to very high temperatures and turn off regularly, heat pumps are more low and slow, the lower and slower they are tends means heat pumps would be more efficient, and costs lower. So as long as you are comfortable, and have enough heat in a space, turning down the 'flow' temperature of the heat pump will reduce costs.
What kind of heat pump do you have? Well done for making the switch! You just reduced your heating emissions by 70%!
Thanks Tom.
I wonder if the prices there have gone as crazy as the states? Heating oil prices have doubled over the last year or so. I'm installing a min split and we run off PV which charges out car too so we're really hedging inflation.
Hi mosfet500 - similar over here. Government have capped prices at 34p per kWh for electricity and 10p per kWh for gas. This is roughly 2x for electricity and 3x for gas compared to 12 months ago. People are really struggling
PV definitely makes sense if you have electric heating and an EV!
You forgot to include the cost of installation/purchase and maintenance and the CO2 costs of manufacturing your heat pump!
Hi Jeff - thanks for the comment, you’re not the first to highlight that, I have gone into detail about that stuff in other videos and wasn’t planning on repeating for this video which was supposed to be an update on costs to run the thing after a year.
Cost of installation was £11k, that included 2 years of maintenance so we haven’t had to pay that yet.
CO2 costs of manufacture - this blog from 3-4 years ago helps outline the story… www.raponline.org/blog/why-i-replaced-my-new-gas-boiler-with-a-heat-pump/. Because emissions of the grid have improved since then the saving is even higher. So maybe less that a year to ‘payback emissions’.
I haven’t compared with the carbon cost of manufacturing a gas boiler. Or in fact of digging up the gas in the first place. I’d be interested to know the long term impact of natural gas on our air quality, ecosystem and ultimately, climate…? Good job we don’t tend to question embodied emissions of fossil technology in the same way we do low carbon tech…!
Tom
So at what outside temp does it start to drop off in respect of efficiency, ie less than 5c, and what happens when it’s minus outside
Hi Ian, good question. I haven’t analysed that exactly about whether there will be a cliff for efficiency at a certain temperature, there may be, I suspect it follows a trend down as temperature drops.
So max efficiency of around 400% at 10-15 degrees to a minimum of around 250% at -5… it probably isn’t a straight line between those two points but it may be!
Tom
Did your old boiler have weather compensation?
No it didn’t. I tried to keep flow temperature as low as possible but this didn’t modulate automatically
Thank you Tom
Pleased to be of some help!
As gas is about the third of price per kWh of electricity.
Yep and a heat pump uses about 3.5 times less energy than a gas boiler so the costs are pretty close!